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Yeah, I like to grip firmly either way, but I could test a looser initial grip. My spin difference wasn’t as much as it initially was when I made this change but I think this change just helped my wrist work better and so when I went back to pre extension some of that improvement was still there. My feeling is that starting with the wrist neutral and letting the forces pull it back rather than manually extending it early helps give you a deeper and more springy wrist extension to flexion action.

I have multiple tech disc videos showing different nose down techniques. One of them is recent with 10 throws adjusting nose angle on each and another is further back called ‘best nose angle techniques’ I think. My caveat is that practicing swing plane should be a priority before advanced dynamic techniques like turn the key. However, the biggest cause of node up is unintentional pronation of the wrist and so practicing some supination could be useful but it’s easy for people to mess up their swing plane in different ways by trying turn the key if they don’t already have decent control of swing plane.

That’s why this is so promising. Lots of improvement still available and it’s already helping just getting a small amount deeper than usual. When you say slightly out of the pocket do you just mean it’s not quite to the right pec of depth or something else?

@@disc-golf-neil Right pec . Forearm seems a little tense. So it looks like your pocket stays oh so slightly outside of 90 degrees, which may be forcing the center release but i’m no expert. Impressive nonetheless!

"fix your head position with drill for more distance and accuracy" is the RUclips video where I found the drill

are you talking about turning the head backwards as I coil? Once I start coiling and can't look at the target anymore I want my head to be neutral instead of craning my neck to keep trying to look forward even though you can't really. The head looks like it turns backwards but it's more that my head returns to facing the way my chest is facing, and my chest is starting to turn backwards from coiling, and then my head stays aligned with the chest as a unit during the rotation so it's not getting ahead or behind the rotation until after the hit. I think the biggest issue with the head is people turning it ahead of their rotation and looking up to watch the disc, I don't think turning it back to return it to neutral is really an issue. However, it might be interesting to keep it a bit more forward, I just don't want to put any neck strain on trying to keep it forward when the body is turning backwards.

​@@disc-golf-neil promise there's no strain, check out the video and you'll see. Let the body turn the head is what I am saying, to me you're actively turning your head early and too far back. Also when you turn your head too early to see the disc you open your shoulders and lose the deep pocket you're seeking

EDIT: oh I think I see what you're saying, I didn't see your comment referencing the drill vid but watching it now. It was confusing because my head is still a bit back during the power pocket and not forward, so I wasn't sure if I was misreading what you were saying because I was like "my head isn't forward??". So technically it's a barley back which IS too far forward and it should be further back. I'll give it a try. I just saw another one of that guys vids the other day, really good stuff. I'm not actively thinking about turning my head. My head turns back during the reachback *because* the body is turning back, the head wants to go with the body which is the body turning the head as you say. The second part of what you're saying about the pocket, are you then talking about turning the head forward too soon? I'm not looking at the disc directly during the pull through. I just try to keep my head neutral (not looking up, not looking down) so what this results in, for a hyzer throw, is my eyes are actually aimed at the ground like 5 feet away, you can see the bill of the hat pointing that way. I'm not looking down, my posture is hyzer so a neutral head position is pointed slightly down. Here's a picture: i.imgur.com/cgSWjTh.png White lines are where my eyes are looking. Orange line is my spine, my head is slightly turned back during the pullthrough because if the body turns the head, the body leads first and the head follows so it's slightly behind instead of the head turning first. Are you saying my head should be turned further back at this point?

Edit: You may not think it's active, that's because habits become subconscious as someone who has been doing it for years. Now watch every pros head from reach back to deep pocket. Also watch every pros head and how long they are looking at the target and also if they turn back more than 90 degrees away from the target. Max distance throws the coil is greater and does go past 90 degrees. Upshots a lot of pros never stop looking at the target. But once the head gets back during the reach back, it stays there until the "out" motion, your head is moving forward on the "into the pocket" motion

Yeah I've thought about doing this but have just always had more things I want to test so the tech disc tests videos is just kind of all part of the whole process, and so I sometimes talk about the form more in the test and my thoughts to where it's kind of blending into a series like you mention and other times it's just the test without much commentary. When I've thought about doing more of a form work video or tried starting one, I just end up wanting to focus on testing something specific because otherwise you are just kind of winging it when you see something that seems like it's helping but don't focus in on it more specifically to try to compare the results like I try to do in a tech disc test. But I like the idea of explaining the bigger picture of how I see my form coming together, thanks. After this session though, deep pocket practice is going to be a big focus for a while. Blitz recent vid and convo with him helped renew my focus on it and I agree with him that focusing on this can help with many other problems--you cannot bring the disc to the armpit without the elbow being up and trying to directly keep the elbow up rarely works, so something else that gets it up as a consequence I think is the way to go, and then the deep pocket just has a hole host of other benefits.

@@disc-golf-neil Love to hear it. Keep up the great work!

Yeah mostly in description: What do you mean by locking the front shoulder? Delaying shoulder rotation? The deep pocket requires more shoulder abduction so you need shoulder movement in that way. When I think just about curling the disc into armpit that focus results in elbow flexion + shoulder abduction + wrist flexion. With that being the focus it feels like you are focusing on doing that before shoulder rotation gets too far ahead of your pocket. From past throws I’ve thrown my max Of 68 in a walk up when the previous was more of a runup. So no diff in that sense but most of the time it’s prob 1-2 mph diff. Spin is primarily from wrist curl, pocket depth, and not manually releasing the disc. I sometimes get as low as 1050 with a normal non-deep pocket and not much wrist curl.

@@disc-golf-neil yeah, I think the only thing it can be for me is pocket depth. I mean delaying shoulder rotation, yes. keeping my front (right) shoulder in place through the throw and letting my right arm swing around me more. Almost the equivalent of keeping your head down on a baseball or golf swing.

Yeah, it can definitely help but I do want to more directly work on avoiding shoulder collapse and getting to a deeper pocket more directly. Who knows, I might like a more inline reachback if I was better at getting to a deeper pocket for example.

@@disc-golf-neil There's several cues surrounding that and I think we just gotta look at what's similar to get the truth. Break down the door, pull into your right pec, out in out, keep the elbow outside... etc. At the end of the day, an upper arm that's too loose will collapse. So it's gotta be consciously supported in some way till it works into muscle memory.

Would this be similar to Kyle Klein, the way he reaches back closer to 5 o'clock? ruclips.net/user/shortsg8DkotQQi4M?si=y1CXuLivpx4ZRLZD

Like the newest video from Blitzdg? Im interested too

Me 3

Yeah I've been meaning to test that too, instead thinking about stopping thinking more about counter-strafing like I do in pickleball and did in racketball like when they hit it to one side and you have to lunge, plant, swing and counter-strafe back to the middle in case they return it down the other side next.

How much would you say my body is climbing too far over my brace leg? small, medium, large amount?

Yeah, a lot of people will probably end up running up backwards if they try to pre-coil. I wouldn't recommend it to unless someone already has pretty good control of their form and tries it just to experiment.

I'm not sure. The tech disc flight simulator doesn't seem to show a big change in potential distance with more spin and the same speed, it mostly shows more resistance to turning with more spin. Of course a certain amount of spin is needed for the disc to fly well but perhaps above a certain point of spin it has a lot of diminishing returns in terms of adding distance, or perhaps the tech disc sim isn't great at factoring in spins affect on distance at higher levels.

haha, yeah, for real.

I was actually thinking about testing a brace where I try to brace with the knee bent further so there's a larger range of motion when extended the brace knee.

I use what I’d call a fully loaded grip but usually some extra emphasis on the index and thumb pinch but I’m always gripping firm with the back finger too.

Ya that grip with just the tip off would obviously be better but it wouldn’t test what happens with no thumb it would test what happens when using most of your thumb. Still would be interesting to compare tip-off disc vs thumb on seam though. I wasn’t doing this because I thought it would be a good grip to use, just out of curiosity if it’s possible the throw decently even fully without the thumb.

That’s great to hear! Happy throwing.

Have you tested this with a tech disc? The spin in particular. I haven’t seen any spin increases with less fingers. I wonder if it’s more about taking some fingers off making your wrist more comfortable / better range of motion to curl more naturally that gives the extra spin. I’ve tried the gossage style grip and it doesn’t increase spin for me, might lower it slightly. Need to test it again tho.

@@disc-golf-neil yeah had it confirmed cuz the pro at the shop thought I was nuts. You had it right. It allows me to get more curl on my wrist And it keeps the wrist "looser" flexing your pinky that hard will tighten all the muscles in your forearm giving you less whip.

If they don’t ship to Finland I guess you’d have to have someone you know in the US (or closest place they ship to you) receive the shipment and then ship it to you themselves.

Cool! I don’t think it’s as common as what I showed as normal grip but I’ve seen a decent amount of times pros they look like they are using it. Usually when you see the thumb looks far in front of the index finger or the thumb sticks up higher then that’s a sign that it might be used so I look closer for a good angle on footage to see.

@@disc-golf-neil what player was that I recognize him but can't remember the name

@@timeandspacevintage3380 Gavin Rathbun. I believe James proctor also uses that grip or something similar / a more extreme version potentially. In a Facebook post Gannon said he uses something like it but maybe he changed because it doesn’t look like he uses it lately but might be in between the two grips, hard to tell when in between.

It feels wrong if you don’t either pour the tea or turn the key. However, the throw itself feels fine and pretty much normal when doing one of those, but the grip does feel a little weird since I’m not as used to it because it seems like the center palm groove is just the most natural place for the disc to rest. When hands are sweaty I need more chalk / dry off that pinky side of the palm, otherwise it feels like the rim will slide a little bit and not stay in place since it’s not in the center groove. For mids and putters feels weirder than drivers, I prob wouldn’t use it for throwing mids and putters unless I got really used to it. It’s nice to know that if my turn the key timing is feeling off or it’s not feeling right, I can just use this grip and pour the tea as an easier way to get nose down because pouring the tea is much simpler than turning the key.

Thanks for the insight! Is this the f1p-3 that was in earlier videos?

@@pisteville7797 yep!

I haven't trained anhyzer as much because I don't like the posture as much and hyzer seems more commonly useful. It definitely feels weirder to me, but not sure what your issue might be. Clunky or blocky is pretty vague, hah.

@@disc-golf-neil It's how it feels. Like I could make one or two small adjustments and have it feel better, maybe? I need to record myself.

@@JohnFnLopez yeah definitely, those aren't specific enough feelings to go off of so you gotta try to find out what part of the form is making you feel that way by filming and trying out different adjustments to see how the feeling changes and the power.

Awesome, thanks for the guessing. You surprised me with a few! Reveal vid is scheduled for Sunday morning.

2 was correct and 10 was close :P

@@luftisbollen ya I was kinda shocked when I saw your guess for 10!

That's normal. Next time you watch a pro tournament and see a shot that you think is flat, pause it at the moment of release and most of the time it's like 10-20 degrees of hyzer but is flipping up to flat right away. If you throw a disc that's only slightly flippy on 10 degrees of hyzer and at a speed that matches the speed of the disc, the disc might turn TOO much because 10 degrees is not much hyzer. Many shots that look like anhyzer shots are actually just mostly flat releases but then start turning right away because flat is really close to turning compared to hyzer.

The nose angles will be revealed in the next vid in a few days with explanations of what I was adjusting each throw. You said the nose angles looked similar, but did you notice the differences in form?

He straight up says "in this video I will not be showing the nose angle" And the title of the video is "guess the nose angle"

@@disc-golf-neil Except for the swoop, and the grips which you emphasized, the variations seem minor. My general guess is that tech disc measured some nose-up on most throws.

@@martyjenkins3631 the next vid will be very interesting for you! Scheduled for Sunday morning.

I think 10-20 is a great default to have. If you go on tech discs website then look on the top for live events you can click through pros throws and see most of them are in that range more most throws. You can’t really throw long straight shots without hyzer. You are stuck with either too much turn or hyzering out too soon from stability. You need hyzer that cancels out the under stability from disc + wind + speed to get straight flights. The exceptions are when the headwind is strong enough to make a flatter release with a stable disc stay flat for a longer than usual amount of time before hyzering out of the flat flight.

@@disc-golf-neil Thanks for the quick reply. It’s something that I don’t want to get hyper-focused on if I within an acceptable range. 20 degrees seems to be my natural release per my tech disc.

That's what's great about a cue like 'close the car door with your butt' because you don't have to explain hips or pelvis, hah. Good to know though, thanks.

Thank you for this information, Michael! I'll be thinking about this myself in my next standstill throw session. I think I've been fighting this more than I realize since I've been a desk jockey the last 2 decades.

You can’t have a conversation about posture in DG without talking about bending your knees. DG is the only sport I’ve ever played where bending your knees isn’t widely encouraged.

@@CherryB0mb333 This has been the most frustrating sport I've ever played. I feel like so little is intuitive, and it's so easy to build bad form habits everywhere. And then iron them into muscle memory forever. 😂

@@NickCarroll for real. It doesn’t help that we can’t agree on what is good form either

Do you have any visual that shows #4 the mismatching of the rotational planes? You should go onto dgcoursereview and discuss this with the people there if you aren't already on there, hah. Would be an interesting discussion.

When I look at my core / hips when I sink back into them more while standing here it still looks like they are rotating on the same axis so that’s why I asked about a visual.

Here’s a pic highlighting Simon’s more hip depth than me (in a slower low 50s throw): cdn.dgcoursereview.com/internal_data/attachments/343/343106-7356decd2f549049a8685b7d852bc50e.data?response-expires=Wed%2C%2026%20Jun%202024%2018%3A18%3A49%20GMT&response-content-type=image%2Fpng&X-Amz-Content-Sha256=UNSIGNED-PAYLOAD&X-Amz-Algorithm=AWS4-HMAC-SHA256&X-Amz-Credential=W4Q2O2A2ZT7JHI3PWWBJ%2F20240619%2Fnyc3%2Fs3%2Faws4_request&X-Amz-Date=20240619T181849Z&X-Amz-SignedHeaders=host&X-Amz-Expires=604800&X-Amz-Signature=441643b8de4fe083edba6abff3331821af813ef92ba46b72410b01734172c154 Tilted axis forum discussion: www.dgcoursereview.com/threads/tilted-axes-spirals-and-dynamic-balance.178653/

In distance competitions I often see some of the fastest throws on more than 20 deg of hyzer, they need more hyzer a lot of the time for it to not flip at those speeds. A lot of people are surprised at when throwing the TechDisc that they are throwing on 15° hyzer when trying to throw flat without realizing that that’s normal because most flat flights are actually small hyzer flips. So I bet a lot of the pros even who aren’t all super used tech disc end up throwing and start with “I’ll throw a nice neutral flat shot “and then our surprise at how much hyzer it has and start to throw less hyzer which could skew the stats away from their natural amount of hyzer.

@@disc-golf-neil Mismatching rotational planes: You're not bad. My point: 1. Your spine angle determines hyzer angle. If you lean more than the desired hyzer angle, you will be spinning like a wobbling top (higher moment of inertia). 2. We should achieve as much of this lean from our ankles as possible. Knees are bent only for an athletic stance. 3. If you stick your butt out it's just to achieve balance and minimize your moment of inertia. Some butt sticking out will be necessary the moment we bend our knees slightly for athleticism, but it's not a goal. Simon: Simon is using a "pull" technique. His stance optimizes his pulling power at the cost of rotation. And now the "advice" you got makes sense. The people who told you this are telling you how to "pull harder." I couldn't get past low 60's mph when I focused on pulling. When I focused on rotation (like McBeth), I am throwing 65+ consistently (max is 67.5 mph and 465ft. I'm 42 and 5'8"). If you're pulling, your elbow is lower, you have to lean forward more, and your butt has to stick out more. All of this increases your moment of inertia. McBeth's elbow is high. It should be 90 degrees to your spine (axis of rotation). Turning your hips and then torso brings the disc into the power pocket. There's no pulling. Look at McBeth in slow motion. His shoulder almost gets stretched out of the socket. Anyway, there are a lot of "pulling pros" and most coaches teach pulling. If you want to focus more on rotation, your left arm is going to have to do a lot more work. Look at McBeth in slow motion. His left arm is punching as hard as he can. The muscles are straining. The left arm concept in the backhand is the same as the double arm swing in a volleyball approach jump. The athlete swings his arms back and then forward as he jumps to maximize his jumping power. Anyway, this is the start of a discussion and argument that never ends. Thanks for the great videos.

Ive been meaning to try extra coiling on high power throws for a while with the tech disc but keep forgetting or needing to rest cause playing too much, hah. Not sure what would happen on lower effort throws but pretty sure more power than intended. My first ace was basically doing a full coiling on a hole I normally only coil halfway on because it’s a short straight shot at the basket and that’s how I accidentally aced. Tried to throw it softer but it would’ve gone passed if it didn’t make it.