Destiny Steps In After Vegan Gains Gets Angry In Heated Abortion Debate
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- Опубликовано: 3 сен 2023
- DEBATE: Unexpectedly heated debate breaks out on stream...
Ana
► / ukrainianana
Vegain Gains
► / @vegangains
Dr Avi
► / avibittmd
Kelly Jeans
► / kellyjeaaann
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#destiny
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VG could read tv guide out loud and still somehow sound condescending
Accurate.
Thats the Vegan part..
True
It’s the first step in being vegan. It’s the most destructive form of food consumption relying on vast mono crop cultures and endless pesticides. If these people didn’t leech from the grid they would either die or eat real food; of course they are selfish and condescending
That's the whole point of being vegan, so you can talk down to everyone and get that sweet, sweet feeling of superiority.
I don't know why Kelly bothers to show up lmao. Cringe
Vegan Gains Deep Voice = "I'm cool, calm and calculated "
Vegan Gain High Pitch Voice = " Shaking with rage "
Literal soy voice
His default voice is whiny and high pitched, he actually has to make an effort to make his voice sound masculine. This is a guy who neutered himself so Idk what you expect lol
I don't think he shakes with rage. He is fully torqued.
@@vegan4theanimals yea but don't forget that he could physically dominate you 😂
Kelly speaking should be a bannable offense
Women speaking should be a bannable offense
based@@ArthurSchoppenweghauer
This is how I feel abour Xena
I'm just glad Destiny is finally playing a game that you can look at and tell what's happening.
So true
Would be better if he didn’t cut out half of the screen tho.
What game is that?
@@JADiaz10 armoured core
@@JADiaz10 Armored Core 6, its dope as fuck.
Kelly could derail a conversation with herself.
Honestly has she ever in her entire life contributed anything positive to a conversation?
She always comes off as a know it all to me. Every concept she voices it’s like she expects all of her points to be obvious to everyone around her. And if the narrative ever gets pushed she just goes it’s a joke broTM
@@SmokingDodo she seems to have this weird condition, where she is forced say every sentence in the most condescending way possible
The unearned smugness is annoying. Especially when she also seemed like the slowest and least productive person in the convo
Thank god some one said it
Okay so it's not just me that gets that feeling, can't understand her when she starts mumbling & she never adds anything to a conversation
Everyone hating on VG, but jfc I swear hearing Kelly talk convinced me human life can exist without surpassing the intellectual capacity of a 20 week old fetus.
Thanks for warning me she’s in the video
She’s like Alec from the Jubilee video
Both are garbage people 😊
@@Zinojn how do you not find vegan gains funny but enjoy kelly speaking?
The combined IQ of every vegan in the entire world is 25.
A debate between Vegan Gains and Mr. Girl would be peak
Great, now I know I want this and I've no way to make it happen
@tylerbanns9515LMFAO
Good idea, two degenerates goimg at it would make for great content to observe.
that would be levels of unhinged that might turn illegal
The thing is, VG's arguments tend to be coherent. He just gets incredibly frustrated when the debate doesn't go in the direction he needs it to go in for him to pull his got you move.
He doesn’t necessarily get angry because the conversation doesn’t move enough for him to pull of his got you move, but because the conversation doesn’t move at all
He also lies and misrepresents shit... like a fucking lot.
Exactly. He makes intelligent well thought out arguments but his delivery is terrible
@@RichardsGaySonnot really lol he is fine with killing insects and carnivorous animals but other animals hes completely against it
@@fourtyseven47572source?
Having Vegan Gain, Kelly Jean, and Dr. Avi behaving in the most reddit ways possible while normal person Ana is just trying to have a conversation is so embarrassing.
It’s DGG everyone talking is a redditor wym lol
Dr. Avi was being charitable, Ana sounded like someone who just tried using their brain for the first time to think about issues. VG was right but insufferable about it and Kelly may have well just screeched autistically into the mic - she would have contributed more.
Not true of Dr.Avi, you guys seems to hate him for no good reason when he's probably one of the best debaters on destiny's channel
This is my first time seeing this Avi individual, but he did not behave inapproriately or weirdly whatsoever.
vegan gains is an actual debate bro, he cant help but go into debate mode when he hears something he disagrees with
Vegan Gains really knows how to read the room huh
Least autistic vegan
he don't gaf about reading the room. he is obviously above such nonsense.
This guy? I haven’t seen him since like 2015 when he did a video of like begging for pigs to not get killed
"There's some people in this room. I'ma scream at them."
🤣🤣🤣 yea I guess so. He has a unique way of reading the room, I think is a more accurate way of putting it.
I'm 25 minutes into this 33 minute video. As of right now, vegan games hasn't done anything that I've seen to warrant how much people are s******* on him in the comments section. Literally 4 minutes into the video. He is completely misrepresented by the girl with the Ozzy accent and the Ukrainian girl keeps trying to compare his arguments with pro-lifer arguments and then every time he calls her out on it destiny jumps into defend her saying she's not talking about you. She brings up the pro-life or arguments in response to his argument.
It goes literally like this. He makes a statement. She argues against that statement. Someone calls out the fact that her argument doesn't make sense in comparison to the things she's arguing against. She brings up the fact that pro life is believe a certain thing and that's what her argument was against. Vegan games then brings up the fact that that's not his argument. Destiny jumps into tell vegan games. She's not talking about his argument.
But if this is the case then this means that she never answered his statement. Mean she has just been ignoring VG arguments this entire time and just been shadow boxing pro-lifers who aren't there or she has been associating his arguments with pro-lifers arguments and that's why she keeps answering the way she does.
The Vegan man always comin back with more beef 🤣🤣
VG is the comedic relief that nobody asked for and nobody wanted but in the end we were all grateful for the laugh.
I just started the video, but VG is pro life, correct? I find that bizarre because when he a a fitness tuber he made an unhinged video about how much he hated babies.
@@RandyLeftHandy just because you don't want kids doesn't mean you agree with abortion. I don't like Redsox fans, but I don't think we should kill them either.
@@markzuckergecko621from what I'm understanding is he's against abortion just to force consequences on people. Like abortion is an easy solution that he's fine with existing (e.g. rape) but once you consent to the sex abortion is now off the table because you chose to have sex. Not anti-abortion. Just pro punishment lol.
@@imoutofnames1 sounds like you're just anti responsibility.
See? I can straw man too.
@@RandyLeftHandy He doesn't like babies (as in, he wouldn't want them himself) and he thinks it's cruel to bring them into the world without their consent, so I think it'd be more accurate to describe him as an anti-natalist. I think he was also pro-abortion for that reason until Dr Avi changed his mind on it.
its baffling why kelly is still let inside spaces like this because she is obviously barely capable of conscious and critical thought. She is definitionally the pigeon that walks around the chess board knocking over pieces, shitting on the board, and cooing in victory. At least destiny used to care when she would say something stupid, but he has given up completely because he has admitted to himself that she is barely sentient and a lost cause. He doesn't respect her at all and values his amusement he gets from her (driving VG crazy while refusing to engage with logic) than (moderating the debate and calling out inconsistencies). The real loser of this debate was us for having to listen to her not even pretend to engage with anything they were saying. I feel bad for Ana and VG because even though they might have been speaking past each other, they were at least trying.
uh huh lol
Not every conversation has to be insightful did you really come into a vegan gains debate expecting him to have a civil conversation and not immediately start sperging out like he usually does?
I hate Kelly as much as the next guy, but you have to admit that it's hilarious when VG gets triggered out of his mind by Kelly saying the most basic level-0 thing on a topic, like "what about rape?". The fact that it's Kelly of all people just makes it so much funnier.
@@killerqueen873he might not be civil but he is able to at least engage with someone’s argument and make critical conclusions based on them
its funny to watch kelly prevent vg from even being able to start a loop XD, its still annoying that nobody successfully calls her out on being 4iq@@Hemlocker
a baby is not infringing on your body autonomy you consent to the possibility of a baby when you have sex
No logic allowed when it hurts their feelings bro.
You know you have a strong argument when you refuse to confront your opponent’s position
I dont even know who you're talking about, king
@@MrMctastics you must’ve missed the part where they said “well most pro lifers…” to which vegan gains said something along the lines of “that’s not my position” but they just kept going back to what “most pro lifers” thought rather than vegan gains actual position
@@lastnamefirstname8843yeah I noticed that and it's weird because destiny kept trying to defend when they were doing it saying if they're not talking about you. But they're saying that indirect opposition to vegan games is arguments so they're obviously talking about him. Because if I make an argument and then you rebuttal with something that has nothing to do with I'm talking about and when I call you out on it you say well that's what pro life is believe then either one of two things is happening. Either you are completely ignoring my statement and just saying random s*** and not arguing against the points being made or your comparing what I said to pro life arguments and you're arguing against them as if they're the same.
@@lastnamefirstname8843 Vegan gains bursting into a discussion to make it an argument about his own beliefs really is on brand for someone named VeganGains
@@Grimjr7 yea destiny steps in when people are drowning because they can’t argue their point or their point is too weak to argue for
If you are having sex, you are responsible for the consequences that brings. It's 2023 - everyone knows that if you're sexually active, there is a chance you might get pregnant/get someone pregnant. No contraceptive is 100%. This is why we need to teach people to make better choices w/ their sexual partners. The "oh, I didn't know" argument just doesn't work. You know what sex is for. lol
So knowing contraception isn't 100%, should we all just abstain from sex? There's a plethora of things that can cause accidents, should we abstain from all things that go wrong or should we have options to fix the accident?
@@Mrnitti196 You know what yeah if you're that worried just sit it out
@@batzo7490 who's worried?
@@Mrnitti196im only talking about consensual sex. Yes - if you have sex, you can get pregnant/get someone pregnant. I don’t know what else to tell you. Be an adult and make better choices w/ who you sleep with. If you can’t handle the consequences of sex, you shouldn’t be having it.
* I’m also pro-choice. I’m speaking about a certain point in this conversation.
0.006% of skydivers die. That’s rare - it can still happen & if you decide to take that risk - that’s on you.
I like to shit on VG as much as the next guy, but he’s right here.
Yea even if you disagree on abortion, at least there's sound reasoning why he's against it
Vegan gains literally used to talk about how he wanted to kill children consistently…. This guy is just grandstanding for the audience and for the sake of the argument.
For a guy thats vegan he sure does like beef.
Kelly jean might be the worst, most annoying to hear orbiter, with vegan gains being a close second.
Qorantos worse than both combined
@gyytgy3330 hard disagree. Actual aggressiveness >>>>>> Passive aggressiveness.
@@DatHombre i dont even have an issue with the aggressiveness or passive aggression.
I hate vegan gains coming on because he always just straight up lies to destiny, to the point where destiny just hard doesnt believe anything he says anymore and makes him pull up clips to prove everything.
And kelly jean just seems dumb. Like a person that really wants to be in a conversation but never has anything of value to say or add. And i have never seen this person be correct in an argument on this channel/stream
Vegan Gains teaming up with Avi to destroy any and all argument
Was that really avi? His voice sounded different
@@petrichor1956 what soy milk does to a mf 💀
@@TheBloch007 makes your voice deeper? Lol
@@petrichor1956 NRT ☠️
@@TheBloch007 ?
Ignoring their agressive nature and redditor mentality, Vegan Gains hypothetical of forcing a burglar into your house makes perfect sense if you simply accept the fact that there is no possible way to make the chances for childbirth 0% unless you DO NOT have sex, therefore if you have sex, you are accepting the responsibility of putting the burglar within the house.
You're accepting the risk of *potentially* bringing a burglar into your house, which you do every time you unlock your door.
If someone opened their door to go outside, and upon opening the door a burglar barged in to ransack their home, would you say they accepted the responsibility of putting the burglar in their house?
@@pepelechad536 Not even the same type of hypothetical lil bro... try again.
@@datboicasino I may be wrong, but do you care to point out exactly *how* my hypothetical fails, or why it’s not analogous?
@@pepelechad536 Are you lost? Do you have any idea what you are saying?
Taking a burglar, against their will with a bag on their hand and hands tier behind their back, driving him to your home, placing him inside and untieing him, is the extent to which VG and AVI's hypothetical operates. What the fuck are you even saying? The potential to be robbed always exists? Having sex means you bear the possibility that if a baby is formed it is FORCED to be there.
No matter how you spin it, the baby will never take more responsibility than the mother, and killing the baby as an act of 'self defence' is a ridiculous argument, when you were the one who brought it there.
@@datboicasinoplease explain why, I am also curious
You know…I’m still a bit undecided on my own position on abortion, but what IS annoying is the shirking of understanding consequences (specifically in the act of sex). The argument that a pregnancy was an unintended consequence of sex is either ignorant of contraception efficacy or just plain negligence. There is no 100% effective contraception.
Besides abstinence, but that doesn't seem to be considered in general
All pro abortion arguments do ultimately boil down to wanting to dodge responsibility. They take a lot of scenic routes to get there, but their argument always eventually whittles down to "why should anyone have to take responsibility for their actions"?
@@markzuckergecko621true people who don’t want to be parents are the people we need raising kids the most!
@@uhok6712
That makes no sense... 🧐
@@Charlotte.4C I know it’s sarcasm
He missed such a good opportunity. If you leave your door open and someone comes in, it’s just as illegal of them to do so, you making it easier does not mean that you are agreeing to them walking in your house. Whereas with sex, even protected, you are potentially making a fetus dependent on you.
I had the exact same thought. Just because you open yourself up to be robbed it doesn’t mean you weren’t robbed
The analogy seems to be more about responsibility and reasonable response, not legality.
@@michelsundeborg6302 but even if you leave legality aside; leaving your front door open might be a risk not worth taking, but if a robber comes in, you shouldn’t be stuck with a negative outcome, but if you get pregnant and that brings a negative outcome, in a way you should be stuck with that negative outcome.
@@reasonablevegan As you say, leaving your door open does not mean you agree to getting robbed, just as sex isn’t an agreement to getting pregnant. In both scenarios the people know and accept risks, and if it comes to it, would like to overturn the result. Consent is what differs, but maybe that’s meaningful.
i dont think this analogy really works, it isnt like leaving your door open, its more like inviting people into your house even though we might not want them to come over. Destiny said we might not consent to a being, but you actually are. having sex is consenting to the possibility of having a child.
Vegan Gains is one of the debaters of all time. I genuinely love every stream he’s in.
He is indeed a debater
XDD
He really is one of the guys of all time …
hah, man...good one.
Is one of WHAT of the debaters? Make it make sense
"Arbitrary Imaginary line" that's how our society works, age of consent is arbitrary, age of drinking is arbitrary, age of driving is arbitrary. "We can take it out and see if it lives" by that logic all abortions are illegal and instead we should be doing C-sections for every abortion to see if it lives.
Vegain Gains gotta have one of the whackiest political compasses ever
He's probably one of the worst vegan ever, he advocates to kill all carnivores which would cause herbivores to overpopulate and consume all their food before starving to death. It's hard to take someone seriously on politics when they don't even nail veganism after years of making it their main topic.
I’m so excited that Kelly is here. I love hearing her voice chime in and make statements and stuff. 😐
you're weird
40+ ppl agree with his "weirdness"@@dddaaa6965
I actually agree with Vegan Gains for once, wildd
I know right? I never thought I'd see the day.
It makes me nauseous, but true
Vegan Gains still lost this one though
I never thought I'd find myself agreeing with VG against Destiny. Fascinating.
You really are fascinating
@MenchieExtrakt you think what ana was saying was right?
@@hollowkid97 Ana clearly hadn't considered this too much, and intuits her way through the topic. That is why hypothetocals from VG surprised her. I am not holding anything against her here.
Destiny giving a braindead take on "consenting to sex but not to pregnancy" was a shock though - he is usually far more logical.
@beaverofthepola2071 I disagree. I am convinced she is still discovering her stance on most topics, and this is why she might shift here and there.
@@zbigniewp1810 Tbh i think Destiny has pretty firmly said before that if you have sex you consent to the chance of having a baby, so i think he was maybe just steelmanning Ana's position for the sake of discussion.
Kelly drops in every now and then to say the most headass shit, she’s like the girlfriend that is absolutely pissed but you’re in public so she’s passive aggressive af with a smile and laughs
How can you consent to sex but not consent to the baby that you know will come from the sex you consent to?
@@donovan4222Pregnancy is the natural consequence of sex. Anytime it doesn't occur is due to chance or natural/artificial obstructions.
You can consent to sex without consenting to pregnancy. It's really not a hard concept to grasp.
@@donovan4222 no, but what does that have to do with anything
@@MoonPresence-fg8dn how does that work?
@@anushkaguleria7034 How is pregnancy the natural consequence of sex but non-pregnancy isn’t the natural consequence of sex? And why couldn’t it be the case that anytime non pregnancy doesn’t occur, it’s due to chance or natural/artificial obstructions?
@ around 30:00, the scenario is you left your door open or put a screen on your window but the people seeds entered your room, the analogy doesnt work because in actuality you have the pre-knowledge that "a Source", a potential source of people seed was brought into your home and you let the source of the people seed exercise in your home by letting him in and out of the door multiple times.
Vegan gains clearly won this one destiny
Always appreciate the editing accents at the beginning of these videos, gives a special flair as to what's to come.
August has been doing this so long he knows exactly what we want.
why the zoomer music tho? maybe I'm just getting old but I am so confused.. didn't Destiny commission sounds/music for his intros/outros?
I think abortion should be available until the fetus is 25 years old.
Based
Well yeah, abortion is the termination of a pregnancy, not a child. The highest priorities for the doctor performing an abortion is the woman's health followed by the child's health. So if you are pregnant for 25 years you should abort it lmfao
Wonder if those women would argue for sex is not consent[for parenthood] in regards to male's paper abortion.
@@donovan4222 Well I don't know.
I can kinda understand both pro-choice and middle ground people (where pregnancy can only be terminated in special cases like non-consensual sex or hazard to women health).
However I want consistency.
I've heard women arguing "children aren not punishment for sex" right next to "if he didn't want to pay child support he shouldn't have had sex", way too many times.
@@donovan4222 Why tho?
If women can have abortion because she want's to.
Why man can be forced into parenting then?
It's not consistent.
It is a women choice whether she want's a child or not. With man having no say. He didn't consent to be parent when he had sex. Women still can opt out.
Moreover if she does not want a child, and he want's it, it's still her decision.
Why would it be his responsibility then?
@donovan4222 You are just proving my point.
Someone's stance can change and people lie.
The thing is you treat sex differently when women and man responsibilities lay.
In case of man, you treart is as consent for parenting.
Which I disagree with.
If you give women ways to engage in casual sex and then not take responsibility in case of protection failure.
Men should have those rights too.
@donovan4222 I wouldn't call it being deadbeat, I would call it not being their parent.
Yes, women have to carry child. But by giving them choice to terminate abortion willingly, you give them responsibility for it in whole.
And if women wants to be sure that man does not leave her, she should not engage in casual sex.
I dont mean that man should have right to walk away at any time. In case of marriage, or other civil union, he should not have those rights.
But if you engage in casual sex, it's not consent to be parent. So if women decides to keep the child, against what casual sex stands for, it is her choice, and therefore child is her responsibility.
@donovan4222 Casual sex is any sex without entertaining the idea of having the child.
It has everything to do with it.
Because if man does not want to have children, and there is protection failure, or other circumstances, women are given abusive amount of power in this situation.
Having to pay child support is potentially life altering.
Meanwhile women decides for both, if she does not want child, she can abort.
But if she wants the child, she can just fuck over man, even if previously she stated she does not want children.
This is massive power imbalance when it comes to hookups or even casual dating.
So since I am also pro choice, I want men to have their choice too.
Ana didn't deserve this 😔
She was saying stupid things
I agree. But she is pretty tough and experiences way worse stuff on a daily basis so think she can handle this.
Anna is handled with kid gloves because she’s involved in a war. We need to admit she’s insufferable. Despite this, we’ll all just stroke her hair gently, and send her money.
@@BigupSlime lmao loser
@@BigupSlimeAna is awesome, wtf are you talking about.
That people seeds argument was weak sauce. That's unfathomably stupid. If you spread dandelion spores in your protected, weed killer filled garden and are surprised dandelions pop up in your garden still, you are at fault for that.
sure but you should still be able to pull the weeds that pop up
@@koolkat123Good point. I think that's the crux of the argument, though. I also find that comparison a bit lacking. Especially, if people have value, or if there were, for some reason, a weed that can't be pulled at a certain point in development for ethical reasons; Bad analogy
@@TheMasterOfTheFrets In my opinion it's incredibly hard to present a good pro choice argument because at the crux of it they are all incredibly selfish.
Lets see if we can't make a better analogy. You're driving a car in heavy rain, and get slammed by another car having a tailspin. You could have waited until conditions were better, this was reasonably expected to happen on a low % chance. Therefore, you bear *some* responsibility. Are you at fault if your kid dies in the backseat, for your own injuries, etc?
@@lordsteel Everyone in the call was pro choice, at least to some extent.
Nobody would ever accept a man killing a child for financial reasons, but somehow when a woman considers an abortion for that reason, it is somehow debatable? HOW? Just because VG is annoying doesn't mean he can't be right.
That’s how I felt too. Ana’s opening argument is completely unhinged
Hahaha poor Ana didn’t know what she got herself involved in when joining when vegangainz is in the call
Oh poor ana, why are all you npcs saying this. She’s a grown woman and was talking rubbish
@reissfanto they infantalize her cause they have a crush
@hollowkid97 or instead of projecting, we all recognise dealing with shit people makes for a shit time which is a bit shit
@@reissfantoThat's a nice 5-month old account you got there! New to the Internet?
@@lunarlegacy3762 can you explain how I'm projecting?
I don't understand how 'consent' gets wrapped into a natural biological process, or an act of nature in general. Female's get pregnant, and give birth. In the same way trees grow flowers/fruit that then drop seeds, there is no "consent" it is simply what the organism does when conditions are met.. If you cut your hand on a knife, there's no "consent/nonconsent" to whether or not your hand is going to bleed. There is no "consent" required for if it's going to rain on your picnic this weekend, or that the rain will stop as soon as you find it annoying/inconvenient. You may feel you have the right for your body to remain dry and cool during your picnic, but nature doesn't give a shit about your consent.
interesting
If I decide to drive a vehicle with airbags, and wear my seatbelt, and decide to drive that vehicle into a wall at 150 MPH, I am still responsible for the outcome.
Yes but the doctors still treat you after you crash. That’s what an abortion is in your analogy. A treatment for “irresponsible” actions.
The robber analogy is fucking stupid the same thing with people seeds.
A baby doesn't make the decision to enter a woman like a robber makes the decision to enter an open house. The burglar also doesn't NEED to rob you even if they're forced inside. A better analogy is trying to charge a kidnapping victim with vandalism for shitting on your floor after you locked them in a cage.
A baby also isn't a weather condition that randomly happens to you. It's the result of an action taken. If that action was consental, they consented to the chance of a baby being born.
Ah yea cause making a decision where one probability is low is consenting
@@OMAR-vk9pi considering the potential consequences one would probably be expected to take apt precautions. The risk of an oven catching fire from being left on too long is quite low but if it happens and you left the oven on it is obviously you who bares the responsibility
@@donovan4222 because having sex --> pregnancy is one of the most fundamental biological aspects of the human species? "Hurr durr, I rolled the dice during a game of Craps but didn't consent to lose all my money". Jesus Christ you people are insane. It's like your brain has the computing power to only look 2 seconds into the future.
“A better analogy is trying to charge a kidnapping victim with vandalism for shitting on your floor after you locked them in a cage?
It’s absolutely insane that you shit on the other analogy but come up with perhaps the most nonsensical analogy of all time. It’s unclear what you’re even trying to analogise things like a charge of vandalism with and shitting on the floor with.
@@OMAR-vk9pi Even if they use contraception, the probability of failure is listed on the box and told to you. They're consenting to the risk taken by going ahead with the action.
I don't agree with everything Ana says, but it's cool to see someone who's just legit good faith and honest. It's way too rare :)
21:40 The problem is the people that are refusing to accept the reality of consenting to heterosexual sex by default presents the probability of pregnancy. There is no debate for a rational human being on that . I know people are vain and cowards to accountability so they need to understand the consequence of performing heterosexual sex will always contain that risk no matter how small it is. So if someone truly wants to consent to sex with 100% zero chance of pregnancy they can’t have penetrative sex at all.
This is off topic but this simple example is using the same logic.
If I intentionally walk up to a random person then shot them with a gun in the middle of the chest. They later die in the hospital. I can’t say I didn’t mean to kill them and say I only wanted to shoot them in the center of their chest .
Using a deadly weapon and shooting someone in the center of the chest intentionally, that act , not my words or thoughts is presenting the actions that can kill someone.
Shout out vg coming through with the most confusing hypothetical known to man.
Remember when he used to play that stupid factory game? Fighting robots so much better!
Really hoping when all these triple a games get boring he catches the dwarf fortress bug
I feel like these analogies are stupid. Change my mind.
Abortion is one of those subjects where I move little by little more to pro-life position, the more I hear these talks.
Same, I used to be more in the middle on it, I've always personally thought abortion was disgusting and irresponsible, but I used to be more of the "I don't want to impose my morals" camp. But when you hear the arguments on both sides it gets harder and harder to be pro choice. Pro life has a simple and coherent argument - abortion is murder, murder is wrong. Pro choice arguments are complicated, and rely on false equivalences and dishonest argumentation. They always have to try to trap you in some perceived hypocrisy, "but what about this thing??"
@@markzuckergecko621
I was pretty pro choice. Maybe had not thought about it much. First time I heard the murder view I thought that is absurd, but soon I realized that yes there is a line after which I do agree. Guess I have been sliding after that.
@@frozenrabbit5641 I understand the argument on both sides, I get that abortion can be seen as the "lesser of 2 evils", acknowledging that it's wrong, but you think that particular person being a parent would be more wrong. And I would understand that in extreme circumstances, like teen pregnancies. But it seems like pro abortion people don't and don't want to understand the arguments from pro life people. They always just shriek about how we want to control women's bodies, and shout rhetoric about "the right to choose", when that's not the issue at all. The issue is a moral obligation to preserve life.
Hey, just writing this to tell you not to get it confused! Every point argued in this video is still pro-choice for like 95% of abortions.
@@fogggyhead3784 and they convince me closer to pro life. There is no confusion.
Might be that platforming morons of prochoice side is as effective, if not more, as platforming Shapiro.
The people seed argument really only works when there's a specific condition having to be met for the seed to get into your house. Something like there only being one specific kind of fan that you have to have and only that kind of fan can pull a seed into your home. You can buy a screen to lower the chance of sucking one in and forcing a seed into your home and if it fails you still installed that specific fan instead of any other knowing the risk that you would force that seed to begin to grow and become a human.
I feel like the crux of Avi's argument that he failed to adequately explain was that he thinks that people consenting to sex, have to automatically consent to the possibility of getting pregnant, hence the kidnapping analogy. While Ana was arguing that people consenting to sex are not necessarily consenting to getting pregnant.
The problem is the people that are refusing to accept the reality of consenting to heterosexual sex by default presents the probability of pregnancy. There is no debate for a rational human being on that . I know people are vain and cowards to accountability so they need to understand the consequence of performing heterosexual sex will always contain that risk. So if someone truly wants to consent to sex with 100% zero chance of pregnancy they can’t have penetrative sex.
This is off topic but this simple example is using the same logic.
If I intentionally walk up to a random person then shot them with a gun in the middle of the chest. They later die in the hospital. I can’t say I didn’t mean to kill them and say I only wanted to shoot them in the center of their chest .
Using a deadly weapon and shooting someone in the center of the chest intentionally, that act , not my words or thoughts is presenting the actions that can kill someone.
@@Jkon1993 this is so crazy because every action has consequences.. if someone was hurt in a car crash no one would say well they did consent to driving ..and these are the consequences of driving. Or these are things that can happen while driving. You do everything you can to get that person back to health and console them. Even if it was directly their fault (besides like dui) I’m sure people go more the “things happen / people make mistakes route.”
And this applies to everything..not just driving.. so I don’t understand when someone becomes pregnant why there is not the same empathy or understanding that other actions are given
@@glittertea2025 Because bringing that person back to health after the car crash doesn’t involve killing another life.
@@meltedsnowman9637 that’s if you consider it a life … at that point .. in the first place
@@glittertea2025 Yes. The question is at what point the fetus is granted personhood.
At least VG is consistent. There's a lot of vegans out there that are pro-abortion.
Right? I've been saying that for years that vegans being pro abortion makes no sense.
Actually, a couple of years ago, Vegan gains had a debate where he argued in favor, he admitted defeat because the Doctor he debated made the argument that he is using in this video. I'm glad it stuck with him.
No, that's not how it works. Not all vegans are vegan for the same reason. You should look more into the ethical principles of veganism.
True, there are also many pro-lifers who eat meat. The abortion/vegan debate has some similarities about consciousness. There is also some common ground with free speech and government subsidies topics.
@@oneiroagentif you think it's wrong to kill a fish and eat it, but you're ok with killing an unborn baby because it's inconvenient to the mother, there's something seriously wrong with your brain.
@@oneiroagent there isn’t multiple definitions of veganism. If your vegan to try a new diet, or purely for climate change then your not vegan.
Crazy these 2 force their way into a conversation Ana was going to have with Destiny. The debate bro stuff is funny when it's with destiny or other debators but these people have so little chill when it's with non-debators. Avi even came in pretty strong initially and only chilled out half way through the conversation
.
maybe it says more about Ana and her inhumane views on unborn children. IMO they were just disgusted by her and had to call her out and find out how she can be that cold of a person.
All of this would be more like inviting someone in, than say you can take my TV. Than unaliving them for stealing it.
A pond becomes a lake when natural light cannot get to the bottom of the body of water
13:25 Kelly wins the debate. The first person to make Richard throw a tantrum by telling him how hypocritical and wrong he is.
Yall hate on VG but dont tell me its not fire content whenever he's on
these two chicks are the new lavlunes of destiny. mark my words.
The people seed argument is deeply flawed and i don't know why people use it (because someone with a PHD did?). We don't live in a world where babies can be created by chance. There is no constant condition where you can get pregnant if your birth control fails. It only happens when the active choice to have sex is made. The baby seed analogy only makes sense if someone turns the baby seed machine on and then the screen fails. Nobody would feel bad because you actively turned the machine on. Obviously if someone else turned it on, then you would not be at fault.
I hate that people pretend dicks just fall into vaginas, or that sperm just ends up there by a changing wind current. The same flaw also applies to the violinist argument too. If you go to a party and the invitation says you might end up strapped to a dude, nobody should feel bad for you after. You consented to the outcome, you just didn't think your number would get called. You heard it was a great time and thought it's not going to happen to me. Sex is not a mandatory thing and it's primarily done for fun. People just get ass mad when they end up doing what it is actually primarily there to do, create life. The reason we even have such pleasurable orgasms is to convince us to make babies and reward us each attempt.
Until we live in a world where a majority women just wind up pregnant without an active choice, not consenting to sex, this is all bad faith cope. You take out a high interest loan for a risky opportunity, nobody should feel bad for you when it blows up in your face. Stop trying to let people just bail on their choices when they have to answer for them.
every single time you drive you are at risk for a car accident, the chance is low but it may be life altering if it happens.
does this mean you consent to getting into a car accident ?
Wow Kelly Jean seems really pleasant and had some really great points and added a lot of value to this convo🙄
Comparing a baby to a burglar presenting a deadly threat is wild
Wait until you find out about analogies...
@@Fr_OE I’m saying it’s an invalid analogy a baby dosnt have the ability to have malicious intent like a buglar does
Principles detached from implementation, or vice versa, seem to misunderstand the nature of both.
Why does listening to Vegan Gains makes me need to eat meat?
I’m not making this comment to debate whether or not abortion is moral or not, nor am I making it to state a position on the “right” answer to Avi’s analogy. I am writing this because I feel like people didn’t truly understand his reasoning and he could have redesigned the analogies to more accurately highlight crucial elements. Here is my interpretation of his analogy:
Taking contraceptives and having them fail isn’t the same as having the locks on your door fail and then getting robbed because in the robbery scenario, there is still an agent making the decision to enter your home before robbing you. In the failed contraceptive scenario, the embryo/fetus isn’t an agent making the decision to form inside the womb. Avi posits that it is more analogous to have the robber be kidnapped because it is forcing the agent into the position where they could do harm similar to the fact that the embryo/fetus isn’t choosing to to form inside the womb, and instead the individuals who chose to have sex forced the embryo/fetus into the scenario even if they didn’t want a pregnancy. I believe the analogy struggles because the idea of kidnapping implies some amount of intentionality in having the robber present where as the pregnancy there wasn’t any intentionality towards having the pregnancy and in fact, the opposite is true. A better analogy I propose is that a home owner is locking his/her front gate with the explicit purpose to keep robbers out but accidentally locked a robber in who happened to already be on the property. In this new scenario the agent doesn’t have the ability to leave on their own and in fact is forced into a situation where they can do harm even when the intention of the person being infringed was specifically trying to avoid the exact type of harm.
I hope my reconstruction clears some misunderstandings. I may still be missing some aspect so feel free to tweak the analogy further to be more accurate.
@@donovan4222Im really hoping the winky face is a troll and you arent genuinely this slow.
BC isme debate cesa abortion ki need hai to karo baat khtm anology ka chochla india me wese bhi 20 + week hai
Why is the fetus portrayed as a robber? Why not a starving child who is looking through your fridge for food? Isn't that more analogous?
Is destiny training up Ana to debate? This seems like a good boot camp topic and love him or hate him I think vegan gains is a good sparring partner
@@donovan4222I think what's more cringy is that Ana kept bringing up. Pro-life arguments in direct response to vegan games is arguments and then whenever he calls her out on doing that destiny claims she's not talking about him. But if that's the case then that means she didn't respond to VG's argument at all. But we know that's not true. It's pretty obvious she's responding to him and she's doing so as if his argument is a pro-life point of view. I don't know why destiny kept defending her every time she did this.
I loved the intro and the always sunny inspired mini intro 1:30 in. Great job August!
Is August still editing for destiny? Ive noticed cool new effects through out the video.
Another classic example of D-tier orbiters jumping on stream to ruin it
Ana joined and all the goblins couldn't resist
Kiss Ana’s feet, simpleton.
The monthly Vegan Gains vid. Nice
Squatters, despite how much we hate them, still have rights. If you leave your house open and a squatter shows up, you can't just kill them.
20:23 - let me guess. From the pro life perspective, as soon as you decide to have sex, all the responsibility is yours, because the only contraception they think is sufficient is abstinence.
Not saying pro choice or pro life just looking at her first analogy.
An intruder is a moral agent who is making a decision through no fault of your own. A pregnancy has neither of those. (usually)
It might depend on context though.
Let's take an extreme example here. Say your partner is on the pill (documented 99% efficacy) AND you wear a condom (but it tears). Resulting in a pregnancy because the pill also failed, Did they not make every effort to stop an intruder from nestling in the womb?
I'd even argue this case in just 1 of the contraceptions being used. You took active steps to prevent a pregnancy, yet it still occured. Against your wishes. That is an intruder through no fault of your own, unless you take the absolute stupid stance that Sex in and of itself could be the fault.
@@iantha999 Moment you have sex, getting pregnant is a risk (even reduced to an extreme low). It's not a stupid stance, it's a fact
@@iantha999that’s the logical next argument. A religious nutter would say just that. They would say sex is for reproduction not pleasure. So depending who you are talking to , it’s an un winnable argument because that’s the final place they will always go.
@@Tikal881 Everything has risks, doesn't make anything cool. Getting run over by a bus isn't cool just because that's a risk you take when you walk on the road.
@@JewTube001 Cool so drinking and driving is fine by your logic, manslaughter isnt cool but we all take risk, so its fine for me to take the risk of drinking and driving.
I've never seen anybody with a wider gap between actual IQ and how smart they think they are than Kelly Jean
😡how dare Vegan Gains talk to Ana like that
hope she sees this bro
editing has been so good recently. while youre at it pls bring back chapters.
Nothing infuriates me more than people talking about a topic they know nothing about. I've never heard a pro-life or say all life is sacred, I have heard them say all human life is sacred, however a sacred life can be taken in certain circumstances, that life is not the all important factor, innocent life is an all important factor for them.
So, after researching this the number 1 cause of contraceptive failure us human error, meaning a missed pill. Effectively the failure rate becomes a misnomer argument when using it to rebute the responsibility argument because when you purchase or utilize a contraceptive it states on the box or brochure the efficacy rating meaning you are still accepting the risk of pregnancy being a potential outcome
Bingo
Damn we got an analyst on our hands 😳😳😳
Seeing as 20 weeks is when a big scan happens and the potential for issues to be discovered, having a hard cut off at 20 weeks is problematic
If the condom doesn't work or the pill doesn't work properly and the woman decides to keep the baby, then why would the guy be responsible for child support if he doesn't want the kid????
In b4 feminists coming out in like a millisecond yelling "If you have sex you accept that a baby might happen!"
Because their both responsible for producing a child. It's that simple.
It's really annoying that this gets framed as a "female privilege" when child support applies to both genders not just men.
@@AJ-sl7be But if a woman has sex then she is responsible for having the child. You cannot say that a woman gets to abort a baby without a man also then saying during the time that is legal for her to get an abortion to say he does not want the child and if she has it then he will not be responsible for it.
@@arnoldlueders7500 Why do you think a man can opt out just by saying he doesn't want to have a child? This isn't gender bias, it's just that men can't get pregnant. If men could get pregnant they would have the same option.
@@AJ-sl7be First, I am pro choice. That said, if the "excuse" is that if you have sex as a man, then you are financially responsible for the child for the rest of your life because you decided to have sex. Then the SAME should hold true for woman. If you have sex and get pregnant, then you should have the child. SAME standard. However, we let women have a 2nd kick at the can and she can 1. have sex and then later 2. decide to kill the baby. If she decides not to kill the baby, then the man should ALSO have a 2nd kick at the can to let the world know, maybe through a legal filing in court, than he wants nothing to do with the child and thus is giving up his parental rights to the child, including financial obligations. AND, what about the man who wants her to keep the baby and not kill it? Where are HIS rights to that child? Maybe the woman sure still have the baby and she would ALSO legally file that she does not want her parental rights. Once we as humans started fucking with nature, then these problems happen.
Vegan Gains is such an eclectic lolcow
A correct "lolcow" in this instance though
It pains me to say this but he’s absolutely correct here
@13enwarner Idk thats pretty debatable. If the license board doesn't have a problem with what he's doing then I can't really disagree with what Dr K does
@@bigaaron I don't know who we're talking about here but yes you can definitely disagree with a "license board" on some moral principle. That's kind of like saying you couldn't disagree with abortion on moral grounds because legally it's allowed.
@@13enwarner What I mean is that I don't feel qualified to comment on medical ethics without the sort of expertise the members of those boards are required to possess
I cringe every time Kelly comes on stream
Same
How do I get in on one of these debates???
Ana and Kelly are freely allowed to interrupt vegan and avi throughout this whole conversation, simpstiny coming out in full force to protect his queens in this one.
I notice that with ana a lot, she will make a silly argument and destiny is silent.
Kelly is clearly just fucking with them.
Ana is trying to have a discussion with Destiny about generic pro-life arguments, trying to strengthen her own views on if, and VG and whoever that other autist is lost their minds angry that she didn’t have an insanely nuanced take on the topic. It was constantly framed through their opinion on abortion when she never wanted to talk about their opinion on it. So, not even bringing up her English leading to easy misunderstandings, of course she was given more credence to get her points across and argue back. VG is a debate bro, that’s what he does, Ana just wanted a conversation.
@@xhungryyetix Kelly is just silly and ana was talking rubbish making terrible arguments
Poor Anasya, came in completely good faith and VG comes in screeching. For a vegan, he sure is ready for beef.
kekw
Honestly dont blame Vegan Gains at all, her argument was stupid.
How does the people seed analogy work when in one the seeds are constantly flowing around naturally but with regards to sex the majority of the time it’s an act the participants actively engage in?
The people seed thing doesn't make sense to me.
In order for the metaphor to work, people seeds would have to be present in an environment that has to entered.
Or a seed planter must enter the environment. If you let the seed planter into your home, you can take precautions to avoid a seed taking root, but no deterrent is perfect.
Shes separating sex and creating reperdusing.
You could just not have sex.
That's ypu can't just remove the risk of something to others demise.
debate panels like this should have really strict rules on interrupting. If english is not you’re native language it’s literal hell to get interrupted when you’re trying to make an argument
I am not sure if this is a panel. This is just Destiny streaming and people coming to his discord to talk.
hes just tryna piss VG off because its very funny like he didnt care when ana was interrupting. He wasnt really trying to guide the convo he was just making VG mad so he’d get tilted
@@lofvi well yah Destiny does this often and is what I think makes him a decent moderator, he does like to explain to the loosing side and approach it with empathy, Anna was very much struggling in the debate and vegan at some point was going way to hard and Vegan can stand up for himself where ana was struggling to.
@@onizukaval i don’t think he’s trying to moderate bro i think he’s literally only trying to tilt VG because it’s funny when he gets mad lmao. He’s only “moderating” for one side and a moderator doesn’t defend the losing side.
And when Ana interrupts vegan gains?
Is the basic laser blade the best melee weapon? or is that a different one?
Well I’m curious. I agree that agency matters a lot in terms of the bodily autonomy argument. How we would treat a coherent individual that is stealing food from our kitchen is completely different than how we would treat a drunken individual or a mentally disabled individual or a 9 year old or etc. However, I think there is a line where eventually you would treat all of these individuals the same regardless of their agency. If your life is in imminent danger or if your body was being harmed, then the agency of these individuals does not matter nearly as much and in this circumstance then you would not give certain individuals preferential treatment as a result of their decreased agency.
obamna
Instant classic.
vegan gains taking up the mantle of the next mr girl and im here for it
Im going to get a little Mr. Girl Meta here for a second and say that i SUPER appreciate how Destiny controlled this conversation. Very quickly recognizing that Anna had some questions and desire to learn about a topic and Vegan Gainz identified an easy target to steam roll with his talking points
august you're so good at this. love that intro
People should just own it and say "I don't think babies are people and should be protected, unless they're past 6 months in the womb." Pro life people already think you're an immoral devil, so why not just own that? Like if you don't want to do it because "I just don't want to. I'd rather go to school or move up at work." then own that shit. The only reason to softball it is because you're scared of what people will say about you, or you feel like it's a bad thing. If you're pro abortion neither of those things should matter to you.
They know its wrong and they grasp at everything they can to justify by using stupid burglar analogies or fuckin PEOPLE SEEDS lmao.
We've reached a disgusting point in society that we're having to argue that babies and children are people that feel and have as much rights. All for the sake of comfort and convenience.
No one agrees to 7 month abortions bro 💀
@@lighting7508 Did you read what I posted?
@@FreerunningGamer “until they are already born” pro choice people would DEFINITELY defend unborn children provided they are conscious in some way
@@lighting7508 Mate you're missing the entire point of what I said. I'll change it for your delicate sensibilities but I implore you to try reading it again.
If contraception doesnt work that IS YOUR FAULT, you took the risk willingly and knowingly, dont shift the blame on anyone else. What a ridiculous argument. Thats like gambling and complaining that you were supposed to win and therefore dont have to pay.
so if you die in a plane crash that is also your fault because you took the risk willingly?
@3vc0ph Absolutely. You are responsible for risks you take.
@@3vc0ph if it wasnt because of someones failings, yes. Who else would have responsibility? The storm that caused it? Do you jump into fire and then complain that you didnt chose to get burned therefore shouldnt be?
@@3vc0ph Its also curious how this argument only gets used for women. Because if having sex on birth control means you dont have any responsibilty then a man can just abandon the child according to this reasoning.
@@My13101994 how is it your fault when you've been sold a product that didn't work as it should? and the point about the argument only being used for women is irrelevant right now
Kelly, find the exit, and use it. Before I get thrax’d for criticizing Ana and Kelly, I love women; let that be known.
I love how that dude said that the age of consent was an arbitrary line. It absolutly isn't lmao.
wqait what 😅🤣😂
@NoGood999 we base our age of consent on a number of factors but it's set at 18 in most places (16 in others, though id argue it should be 18) in usa because that's an agreed upon age where you're mature enough to make your own decisions among a number of other factors that aren't arbitrary in the least.
Well I’d say what we define as adult-hood or being an adult seems very arbitrary…..It’s a damn staircase….16 to drive, 17/18 to serve, 21 to smoke/drink and many places 25 to rent a car or a hotel room…….I mean shit, let’s just pick a set age. If it’s 16 or 30 or anywhere in between….At “said specific age” you now can partake in all things adult.
I'm only 4 minutes in but vegan gains has a point. His argument wasn't about life being precious or something. His point was about the person who got themselves pregnant is the person who is responsible for themselves being pregnant. And their poor decision making/life planning should not be taken out on the unborn life. This is the reason why he said he's okay with abortion in the case of rape because it removes that whole part about you getting yourself pregnant through your own actions. This is the reason there wasn't a contradiction. This is why he started saying where is the contradiction.
He is more of a consequence enforcer. He should at least follow up on that and say " Okay,if a kid is conceive out of rape,let the kid grow and make the rapist raise the kid" then it would be consistent. Now its just " oh you made a bad decision? Suffer for 18 years and waste your life on it". The only 100% foolproof contraception is not having sex,otherwise things can go wrong. And lets be real,if a woman really want to abort a kid,she gonna do it no matter what ( there are stories about women killing her child after birth because she was forced to do it,at that case obviously its a murder,but i dont think we should force women do things like that)
The burglar analogy is terrible even in consensual sex where the person uses no protection. Because on any given sex act the odds of getting pregnant are still very low, roughly a couple percent. This is why kidnapping a burglar completely fails as an analogy.
A reasonable analogy would be if you invited someone home that you just met. There's say a 2% chance they're a burglar, but almost certainly not. You invite them over, allow them inside, and then they attempt to rob you.
This analogy still has flaws. But it's FAR better and more accurate than the kidnapped burglar analogy which only makes sense if pregnancy occured 100% of the time when sex was unprotected or with a failed contraceptive.
Because people who engage in unprotected sex often do so regularly. You could even amend the analogy. Say once a week the person invites someone they just met to go home with them. They're going to just play video games. If over a year, one of those 52 people ends up being a burglar are they responsible?
The main issue with any burglar analogy is that even in your version, there is someone there to consciously decide to be malicious. That same thing can't be said about a baby.
But let's say instead of there being a 2% chance of someone you invite into your home being a burglar, there is instead a 2% chance that they're someone suffering from a severe mental condition that completely disconnects them from the outside world and makes them live in a delusion. So they are completely unresponsive to anything said, they don't leave, they don't know what's going on around them. There is some kind of treatment that can help them and get them back to reality, but you lack the ability to give that treatment.
They just stick around, maybe for hours, maybe for days, maybe longer. They eat some of your food and just hang out, which is obviously a fucked up situation for you. But for some reason, help isn't coming. No cops, no medical help, no one to get that guy out of your home.
It's also the deepest winter right now, so it's super cold outside and anyone who stays outside for a prolonged amount of time and doesn't actively seek shelter will most definitely freeze to death.
What should you be allowed to do to that person? Should you be allowed to harm that person to get them out? Should you be allowed to kill that person if there's no other way to make them leave? Should you even be allowed to kick them out at all, knowing that they are gonna freeze to death outside? Like I said, nobody's coming to pick them up. You don't know if they're gonna ever snap out of their psychosis and leave on their own volition. You also don't KNOW if they aren't gonna end up harming you in some real way, though it doesn't look like that right now because they're mostly just chilling and walking around your place. It's a MAJOR inconvenience. But you let them in, I GUESS. And it's not that person's fault this happened. They are unaware of what they're doing. So any harm you do to them, directly or indirectly, is at no fault of their own. But is still for your protection, freedom and comfort in your own home. Just like aborting a fetus, if we assign personhood to that fetus.
The fundemental problem with your interpretation is you're misunderstanding the purpose of the burglar analogy. The main point of the burglar analogy is to point out that the FETUS is not at fault for trying to live inside, the mother, i.e the burglar is not at fault for opening the fridge, and you don't have a right to execute the burglar.
When you have sex, there is a non-zero probability that you will force a burglar into your home against their will, who will gain sentience in 25 weeks and necessarily eat from your fridge as they cannot escape nor can they live without eating from your fridge.
It's not that you keep inviting people and some are good some are bad, it's that every time you have sex, you accept the possibility of trapping a burglar.
Put it this way, when you have sex with someone there are two outcomes, one is that you kidnap a burglar and place them in your home, the other is the burglar never existed (no conception), sure 99 times in a row the burglar doesn't exist, but if the 100th time it does you can't point to the low chances of it happening as a justification for executing that person, when the condition of it being there was having sex.