This is a PRIME example of Nature vs Nurture and Venom's Nature is to be a Hive Mind, something to control but a Hivemind is to LINK thoughts which Nurtured Venom into hatred and a "BEAST" which is like Megamind
Peter was already dealing with aggression and stress, which left his better judgement already susceptible but it's the symbiote that capitalized on it and altered Peter's mind, towards actions he would never do, Like substance abuse If an initial thought of hurting someone after an argument, Your immediate better judgement and morale kicks in within seconds, But substance abuse can capitalize on a single thought or feeling and like that you could do something you'd normally wouldn't do Atleast that's how I understand it, but I could be wrong
The only flaw here is that the symbiote, since the first moment it came in proximity to Peter while on Harry, showed that it wanted Peter _over_ Harry. It wanted more power. After their first tag-team, the symbiote tries to latch on Peter and takes a bit of him, creating a simulacra of his spider symbol on Harry's armor after Peter manages to tear himself away from it's grasp. The symbiote knew it would be stronger with Peter, be harder to kill and sealed away like it was for ages, forced into a dying host he didn't chose and kept prisoner until it's captor deemed it convenient. When Peter was dying and unable to resist, it took it's opportunity knowing Harry wouldn't fight it, knowing that saving Peter and empowering him would further lessen the chances of him rejecting it without outside help. The symbiote took every fear, every bit of resentment, every bit of anger towards his enemies, his desire to protect his close ones and amplified them a thousandfold. Making Peter believe he _needed_ it to be what everybody needed him to be. It corrupted him for it's own survival and desire for power, knowing it could exploit Peter's desires and strength. More than that, it literally _possessed_ Peter's sleeping body and almost killed MJ, that _wasn't_ Peter. Even enraged he would never do that.
Thank you for explaining why the symbiote isn't blameless is Spider-man 2, and even though Venom isn't necessarily evil, it is still very dangerous, and does really brings the worst in people. After fighting crime for so long and going through traumatic events, it's not surprising that Peter would developp a lot of rage, insecurity and regret in himself, feelings that he tries to supress most of the time (which isn't healthy) and unfortunatelly, the sybiote happened to found those exact feelings in Peter after bonding with him, and ended up amplifying them and bringing them out in the worst way possible.
The blame is on Peter, but at the same time, it isn't because Venom is basically a drug; if you've watched or read any other iterations of venom, you would know this, and Yuri L. even said it himself that it wasn't just venom or Peter; It was both of them, and Harry's emotions made it 10x worse because he felt backstabbed by peter and thought that peter was going to let him die like that.
I always had seen this incarnation of Venom as a drug. Being a first an medicament used by a sick person (Harry) until it latter became used by another person who isn't supposed to used the medicament (Peter) until the point he transform that medicament into a drug. At the end he (Peter) gets rehibilated and decided to avoid the person (Harry) who actually needs this medicament to survive is not obsession or nothing similar he really needs it and to take it as a way to avoid him getting through the same crap he has gone through.
Here’s an easy way to put it. Before touching the rock, symbiote was influenced by Pete’s negative emotions. After touching the rock symbiote was influenced mostly by Knull’s will.
In all fairness, even tho he's the antagonist, he's not evil, he's insane. Most Anti Heroes like Punisher, Deadpool and Wolverine have done bad things but for the right reasons, just as Matt says in the show "Frank Castle is a good man, he just doesn't know the difference between right and wrong", you can't blame an alien for being unable to act human when all he was trying to do was survive and support Peter's emotions.
Well said. This is exactly why Carnage is so dangerous and the bond between the symbiote and Cletus Cassidy is so strong to the point they don't refer to themselves as "we" and are just one entity. Because Cassidy fully embraces his psychotic nature from start to finish, no inner conflicts, no suppressed emotions.
That’s because they are jut one entity. After wearing the suit for a while, you are given the choice to permanently meld with the symbiote. Your entire biology is broken down and melded together and you are then just one entity. Not even Eddie Brock does this and he loves venom. But that’s what carnage is, a new creature of evil and blood lust.
And now they are two entities. The Symbiote who seeks to be the top dog, to claim its place as the ultimate predator through the multiverse; and Cletus who just wants to claim his title as the worst killer around, killing a lot of people for fun
@@EggEnjoyer The actual comics have a much lamer explanation. It's because a part of the original Carnage symbiote bonded with Kassdy's bloodstream through a cut. Why this never happened to Eddie with Venom or especially Peter isn't explained. The Carnage symbiote in general doesn't seem to really hold its hosts in much regard and always refers to itself as singular even when it leaves Kasady for someone else (like that time it bonded with Silver Surfer). Really, we don't get to see into its mind as much as Venom to see much on its view on Kasady and whether or not its really devoted or is just amused by him. The latter has been shown a few times. Kasady seems to think it likes him but he isn't really reliable...
One point against symbiote is that it started impersonating Harry's mother in his mind. Also Peter's problems with the symbiote started mostly after interracting with the meteorite. Sure, he was more agressive, but looked like he was at least trying to return symbiote to Harry, but it changed after he connected to the meteorite. Also it really wanted to transfer onto Peter from the moment it met him, and it clearly knew that Harry would die without it. I would have believed that it wasn't Venom's fault that it became like this if at any point it either split itself to heal Peter or return part of itself to Harry when Peter tried to return the suit (it clearly can do that) or tried to heal Harry when it got a power boost from the meteorite. Peter despite everything still wanted Harry to live, and Venom could help but didn't until Peter removed it.
Well think about it this way. Venom immediately wanting Peter is actually lore accurate. In any venom related comic. The symbiote finds Petef and instantly falls in love with him. Peter is Venom's dream host. Like this is actually said in many comics involving the two. To the point where Venom would literally leave Eddie, who he had a PERFECT bond with, when Peter offered himself to him. So it makes sense that the symbiote observing Peter from within Harry. It creates that instant interest. When he finally getsbthe chance, he JUMPS onto Peter. But he won't leave Peter the same way he left Harry. Because Spiderman is always the symbiote's one and only true love. As weird as that sounds, they portrayed that very well. *you were the reason we seperated* *I remember what you did in the forest* (Queens) To make this go even further. Every time Venom fights Spiderman both in-game and in comic, he sounds like a bitter ex or an ex trying to get back together.
Venom is a cruel pragmatic character. Venom gave Eddie cancer just so Eddie wouldn’t abandon it. Really the first true step towards villainy was after saving Conners. When it was suggested that they destroy Venom despite the fact Venom didn’t do much more than make Peter more agro, Venom tensed up and through Peter said in a scared voice “destroy us?” Venom doesn’t want to die. Immediately tried to ramp things up and keep Peter away from everyone that hated Venom. Peter was the safest person. Venom wanted to take over the world because it would help everyone and because it would ensure Venom gets to keep living. Win win scenario as far as Venom is concerned. Symbiotes are immune to disease and make people stronger than they normally are, why not give everyone a Symbiote? Besides that Venom gets upset when Peter calls Venom a thing, and has a grudge against Miles for separating him from Peter.
I don't know if Insomniac is going to go completely with comic canon, but if they are, then it means that Venom, upon introduction is essentially amoral, since the Klyntar, Venom's species, are a hive-mind of amoral beings enslaved by Knull. This means that Venom really has no concept of morality or even emotion for that matter. He is just living out his natural life-cycle. However, when he senses a host as powerful as Peter, he gains desire for that host. When he bonds with Peter, he takes Peter's emotions and sense of morality at face value without really understanding any of it. He's basically the mental age of a young toddler. This is why Venom, strangely, actually reasons that he helps people. This is why his notion of "healing the world" actually makes sense in his head. He knows Peter wants to save the world and he wants to do that for him. So, his solution is to turn everyone into symbiotes because then they'll essentially be immortal. It's important to note that Venom isn't inherently good or evil. He is an amalgam of the emotions and beliefs of his hosts coupled with his own, reasonably small, sense of self. This is why he doesn't messed up shit like use Harry's mother's voice. Because, as mentioned before, Venom doesn't understand morality. He doesn't understand in the same way Peter does, that doing stuff like that is inherently bad. No, he only understood that Peter didn't like killing people but he didn't understand why. He can't reason morally, he only understands simplistic rules as of yet. I believe that if Venom bonded with Captain America first, he wouldn't have turned out the way he did. Then again, Peter is a better hero than Cap. Maybe it does just come down to communication, lol. I mean, Tom Hardy's Venom and Eddie Brock very quickly begin communication early on during their relationship. Lol, maybe all Peter and Venom needed was couple's therapy and for Peter to realise sooner that Venom is a sentient being.
@@julianmcmillan2867calling them amoral is giving them the benefit of the doubt. The Venom Symbiote is the white sheep of the species. Granted it’s probably because of knull.
No one could’ve said it better than nature himself In the last game Peter defeated Fisk after 8 years of the cops trying to, he defeated Martin Li after a whole week of him terrorizing a whole city, the breakout that happened cuz of Sable’s careless dumbass was blamed on him while he contained as much of it as he can, he stopped the whole sinister six ALL by himself and people say he’s still a menace, he sacrificed his aunt, the one who was there for him since he was a child for the whole city and they still think he’s a menace. He contains his feelings for the hood of the city but Venom is basically took what he wants to let out and let it all out, he also didn’t kill anyone while he had it Even after he stopped the venom there are still idiots that believe he’s a menace
@@TheNature904I wanna even add the fact that even in a hive mind venom kinda still does he’s own things and things that he may see as improvements it’s really doing the opposite as he had done in the comics. This game included.
@@King_QM23yeah absolutely the symbiote enhances and twists your emotions, anger and hate just happen to be easy emotions to fall into even if it's something small, people will write a complaint about something before they write a good thing about it. I also have a feeling we are gonna get more to do with the symbiote and hive mind either in a venom solo game or a dlc, because both would involve carnage.
@@TheNature904True... in my opinion, the symbiote does not create 'what is not there'. At most it enhances emotions that you feel both positive and negative. Li put it succinctly when he said as he saw Peter's inner thoughts about killing every supervillain "It may not be what he thinks... but it might be what he feels!" Peter is not as much a 'good guy' as people think he is in the real world. Marvel has made that very clear in "What If" stories.
MJ in this game is pretty chill, calm, more understanding, and flexible compared to the first game. The negativity is still there, but I don’t think she has the same amount of hateful energy anymore. MJ loves and supports Peter enough for me to know that she wouldn’t want to call it quits with him again. When MJ turns into Scream, I think she’s more of a victim to the corruption from the Symbiote than Peter was. And I think it’s because the Symbiote at this point is so much more powerful and corrupted with evil that even the smallest amount of negativity in people can turn them instantly into complete monsters. And for MJ, the only hate she has in this game are J Jonah Jameson and the negative repercussions for Peter being Spider-Man. I don’t think she has any hate for Peter, nor anything he does as Spider-Man. It’s just the negative consequences associated with being Spider-Man that she hates, and I think it’s perfectly fine to hate that sort of issue; life can suck. This MJ is far from being toxic compared to how she was in the first game, and especially compared to her Raimi counterpart.
Even in the comics venom isn’t an evil symbiote, they’re technically clinically insane. With the Klyntar species there’s two types Pure and corrupt. The pure have the goal to make hero’s where the corrupt feed on their hosts rage. Venom was corrupt but they wanted to still be a hero so his kind saw them as insane. The hosts it had before Peter in comics were an alien hellbent on genocide and Deadpool. This fucked them up and when they saw how tired Peter was of it all it decided “I’m gonna help my new friend out by doing what I know how to do” but they’re still corrupt so they still feed on rage and this combination of course horrified Peter resulting in him removing the symbiote leaving it to feel abandoned and betrayed while still loving Spider-Man this only corrupts it even more when it gets to Eddie Brock who hates Spider-Man and Peter Parker. It’s part of why it keeps a spider on its chest with hosts not because it adapted itself to be Spider-Man it wants to be Spider-Man to be a hero. There’s even a different reality where Peter dies when he removes the alien and it feels bad for what happened so when it bonds with Eddie Brock it forces Eddie to be the new Spider-Man.
All tho I will say that is a more recent thing, I'm not sure how recent it's definitely not new but it's not like original. Also insomniac is taking a different route completely with their story tho there are similarities in characters and how they behave.
@@Seagull425Yeah but the cool thing is the pure ones grew OUT of that shit and wanna do good. Which actually makes them even more heroic because they grew out of their evil origins to be heroes.
Something I feel a LOT of people should be focusing way more on as a factor is that symbiote artifact that landed with Venom, that thing has Knull's symbol on it, and actively made Venom stronger. Whenever a symbiote is brought under the influence of Knull in any capacity, they are returned to their original purpose, the destruction and consumption of existence. Klyntar are NOT supposed to have their own thoughts, their own wills, they were created to be vessels for Knull's will, they only became individuals after the loss of their god. Notice how all the symbiotes that Venom generates on mass with the artifact have the spiral face, never talk, and act as a hivemind with Venom at the top, those symbiotes aren't people, under the influence of the artifact those newly born symbiotes are empty, flesh machines, totally unlike Scream whom Venom births directly from themself, who has the regular eyes and a personality derived from their host's emotions. Consuming entire planets with symbiotes is something Knull would want, not Harry, not Venom, if that artifact wasn't there on Earth, then Venom's actions and future on Earth would've likely developed far more similarly to what we have in the comics, with them continuing with being a hero, with a skewed moral compass, that eventually comes to friendly terms with Peter. As long as Venom was on the same planet as that rock, they would be subliminally influenced to carry out their god's will.
Yeah I genuinely think this video is kind of dumb, Venom wasn't corrupted his whole purpose WAS to TAKE OVER THE PLANET and CONSUME and we know this because of that knull spiral symbol. Venom came to the planet with a mission of CONQUERING it. this whole idea of "venom got corrupted venoms a good guy" is honestly so dumb to me it takes 1 second of looking it up to know the argument is kind of wrong
this makes so much sense i never thought about how much influence the artefact had, i disagree that when people have the symbiote they are just letting there emotions free and the symbiote isnt influencing them, i think that the symbiote knows all of their thoughts and feelings and twists them even if the thoughts and feelings are true the malicious intent comes from the symbiote. so i dont know if venom would be a good guy if the artefact wasn't there because before the rock came into question venom was already corrupting people and twisting their minds to make them hateful and evil
Damn the Artifact literally made the Symbiote corrupted from the beginning and without it they could be really pure. So I guess I could agree on both sides I guess
@@Gnar05 it’s not really corruption if the meteor makes venom do what he was born to do That’s like saying a former pet tiger becomes “currupt” when it’s introduced to its natural habitat and starts eating gazelles
I dident even know all of this, and I figured it was the case I knew atleast that symbioses were made my someone else with an objective in mind, and based on there capabilities, and how naturaly / easy it was for venom to start taking over the planet, I figured that’s what he was built for Creatures do best, the things they were built for, and if I could design something that would garentee to destruction and control of a planet, I’d make it a creature that bonds with a host on the microscopic level, since most creatures are hosts to all kinds of micro organisms, virus and parasites But as a bonus, I’d make my parasite desirable to bond with in a way that enhances the host, meaning even if it Dosent bond with something right away, it’s bound to find SOMETHING that won’t resist it. That asside, this video does a good job at underlining how venom brings out the worst in people by trying to give them what they want Often when peoples desires are met, or offered, people will cut corners, and do things they otherwise wouldent in order to get, or keep that which they desired
I thought it was strange that Harry didn’t show any negative signs while having the symbiote for a long time. Peter had it for days and went full villain. Perfect explanation
The symbiote Just amplified their insecurities and frustration , he loved and care for Peter from the first Time when venom saw him , saved his life, making him a better Spiderman, but because his emotions Peter started to change not because of the symbiote Man the symbiote even copy Spiderman logo from Peter chest and from the moment that Peter rejected him that hurts Even after Venom nearly defeat Peter he wanted to give him another chance It's like your daily toxic relationship 😂😂😂
@@TheNature904 I mean the worst part is Peter may have wanted to destroy it but then Venom going "FUCK IT WE SPREADIN'!" almost validates Peter so the toxic cycle continues. LIKE MY BROTHER IN KNULL AND CHRIST, SIT YOUR ASSES DOWN AND JUST TALK ABOUT THIS SHIT.
@@williambeck2372well, the Venom symbiote was always kinda like “the crazy ex”. Not necessarily an evil person on their own, but the relationship just broke down and became toxic because the two people in it were clearly not compatible. And Venom will say they hate Peter but if Peter offered himself again, the symbiote would go back to him. It’s been a thing in many adaptations where Peter beats and outsmarts Venom by “surrendering” and begging for the symbiote to take it back, and if often abandons its then host and tries to go back. I think Insomniac played on that “attachment” trait in a slightly different way. Rather than being hellbent on hating and killing Peter but deep down wanting to go back, this Venom still cared for Peter and wanted him “by their side” in their own twisted way
I think your forgetting why Peter rejects the symbiote though, you say peter changed not because of the symbiote but that's blatantly not true, it literally amplified the emotions was able to control without it. He literally gets worse because of the symbiote amplifying the emotions. The symbiote is not the only problem, but it IS a problem for Peter.
I'mma just put my opinion out here: MJ was talking about Jonah J Jameson when she said "I write words I don't believe in for a man I despise", she is referring to the article she wrote about Spiderman for the Daily Bugle while Peter still had the Symbiote on him. She doesn't despise Peter, she is saying that it hurt to write that article because it was filled with "words she doesn't believe in" and JJ will always prioritize stuff that bashes on Spiderman and paints him in a bad light; MJ knew it would save her job, but didn't want to do it, she even tries showing her work to Peter in a last-ditch effort to open his eyes to how he was acting while he was the Symbiote's host. I get where you're coming from, and to a point I even agree that the Symbiote enhances the more aggressive aspects of its hosts emotions to get them to act in certain ways, but it still is partially to blame; this is why I don't consider Venom to be a villain, but rather an Anti-Hero. Just my opinion, lemme know what you think.
This is a fair take. Although you can see MJ disagreeing with the symbiot in the battle. I think the problem is the symbiot can’t differentiate between someone’s actual thoughts and morality, and the dark thoughts and emotions. It’s like when you say something you didn’t mean when you’re angry. The opposite person is always demonized when you’re angry. But when you actually think about him outside of the fight he isn’t a bad guy. And the symbiot can’t tell the difference. More than that, it thinks that since the angry thoughts are more full of emotion, and because of how your brain works when you’re angry or sad, these feelings are what you really think.
Those were definitely feelings MJ had, the same way Peter was having his emotional breakdown, but not only is MJ... about 70-80% right, she still does love Peter on spite of the problems in their relationships. That's how relationships work. And besides, at that point, the symbiote give mine was already super volatile from Peter and Harry.
People often don't suppress negative emotions with positive emotions, they reason them away, but when emotions are too high it is becomes harder. Symbiote enhancing one's emotions but not reason, which would result in some suppressed feelings reaching boiling point and acting out good or bad regardless.
You know what? This take is very much fair. It has been said that Symbiotes aren't natural evil and they simply adapt to the host. There are good symbiotes such as Mania,Toxin,and others that show when given a morally reasonable host,they're actually pretty chill and can be pretty good honestly. Spot on take and has opened my eyes a bit more on this particular story.
I would like to have my own symbiote I think it would be cool he will be silver and I will call him Raiden and we would be best pals just chillin and fighting crime together.
Also, notice how harry himself didnt know why or how he saved peter at the carnival with his "treatment". So the suit was trying to save people before it made any contact with peter or any type of hatred thanks to harry, since the suit merely wants to bond and help its host. He even infects the city with symbiotes, but never hurts or kills a civilian from my knowledge at least. And after being rejected by peter so many times, both the symbiote and harry still wanted spiderman to be apart of his hive mind/family. So he never hated peter even after all that, which is crazy. If im a symbiote who helped out my best to understand my host, and he hurts me and rejects me. To then try and trap/kill me is crazy. And yet venom dosent try to kill peter, only subdue him.
@@Some_guy-on-the-internetespecially when he was spider man for years without having those problems until the symbiote he wasnt rude until the symbiote took over unlike spider man 3 issue
It doesn't bring the "worst" parts of yourself, it amplifies your deepest desires. That's why Harry wasn't affected by the symbiote harshly, because he doesnt have trauma like Peter. Besides his mom passing from genetics he doesn't carry any extreme negative emotions, hence why he was the perfect host for the symbiote. MJ had extreme stress from typical human life and seeing Peter making money, which is why her symbiote was extremely aggressive towards him. Harry had no stress until he hated Peter and Venom attached to his hatred for Peter at the time, while taking on Peter's extreme anger and emotions. Peter wasn't a proper host.
I feel like the reason the Symbiot is usually depicted the way it is, is due to the fact that acts as an amplifier for emotions and thoughts, and is then corrupted by these amplified thoughts and emotions
I think Harry's homicidal anger towards kraven was truly the beginning of Venom's corruption. Having Peter as a host furthered that corruption due to all the stress he was carrying and suppressing within himself. Harry's negative feeling of impotence, jealousy, and betrayal pushed venom over the edge; even then, venom was still altruistic and attempted to heal the world from its perspective. I think the symbiote would've stayed neutral and, in time, become more good if he only stayed with wholesome Harry from the beginning.
There's also the time Oscorp found it. The first thing that it did may have been trying to bond or consume Dr Connors, but Norman ordered the shot on his arm which could have caught the symbiote in the range of fire. From then on, it may have become an injured animal with hostility towards anyone on Earth, since it is foreign to them and they are foreign to it, until it finally touched Harry. It would start leeching off of any information from Harry's memories and thoughts while attempting to heal his sickness in a terrifying but still healthy and relatively harmless way. In the opening scene of the game, Harry had a nightmare of being engulfed and entrapped in his case with it, shut away from even the cold laboratory room. Still terrifying, but still effective. And with your point of Harry feeling jealous, most likely even during the carnival, the symbiote reacted in accordance with his empathy and had moments of aggressively trying to reach out for Spider-Man's powers. Evident when it latched onto Spider-Man's brofist to give Harry his Agent Venom chest symbol. As did it mimicked Spidey's webshooters, Web Glide and any other organic-based equipment/ability. Still, all speculation from my point of view.
Peter was already dealing with aggression and stress, which left his better judgement already susceptible but it's the symbiote that capitalized on it and altered Peter's mind, towards actions he would never do, Like substance abuse If an initial thought of hurting someone after an argument, Your immediate better judgement and morale kicks in within seconds, But substance abuse can capitalize on a single thought or feeling and like that you could do something you'd normally wouldn't do Atleast that's how I understand it, but I could be wrong
Lets not forget that the rock had influence over venom I think for future games harry will be a controlled venom because the rock was destroyed Maybe a relationship like venom from sony movies where venom just wants to leave his life being antihero and don’t want to control the world anymore In 2018 venom movie venom doesn’t want that control de world shit that riot wanted
Your explanation of how Harry wasn’t acting strange with the symbiote on actually answers what was bugging me. Cause Peter didn’t even take 2 mins to start acting different 😂🤣
I think during the Venom part of the game think it’s important to remember he only attacked the guards who attacked him and then kraven’s hunters he doesn’t go after the scientist or the people in Time Square. He’s not a monster he’s more like a scared animal or a young child attacking only out of self defence expect with Kraven in which it’s on sight and I think that’s kinda fair. I’ve been of the mind that Venom tries his best to give his host whatever they want but he takes it too the extreme, Spider-Man keeps having problems with Kraven? Venom suggest he just kill him no more kraven, no more problems, Harry wants to heal the world? Give everyone a symboite it helped Harry so of course it would help everyone. To me Venom’s not evil he’s just misguided which is why I hope the Symboite is still out there and can hopefully latch onto Eddie Brock and finally do some good.
I mean even his goal is “to cure the world”, which just includes bringing everyone into the symbiote hive. Never is his goal to just needlessly kill or hurt people
I agree to the extent that the symbiote isn't necessarily evil it just wants to make its hosts' life as easy as possible and Venom loves Peter he is by far its favourite bond he made Peter say awful things to Harry because he didnt want to go back to him, "it chose me doc, it makes me a better Spider-Man" is venom trying to justify its connection to Peter as Peter was truly trying to get it off and help Harry at the start. MJ was just wilding but you could argue that was Venom trying to actively make Peter feel awful for not being a better partner since he would know how guilty he feels about not being able to provide.
This was showcased in the comics as well. Venom does not turn you evil or make you angry, but instead it amplifies and showcases how you really feel. Funny enough I'm pretty sure both Peter and Harry said that their personality was the real them, they meant that.
Even tho venom did become evil bc Peter did not like how he was amplifying his emotions. Being human means to have control of those emotions. Venom has a personality.
@andrewchambliss3351 Symbiotes aren't humans and do not care about most things. They're like dogs, lovable and able to have emotions but they think like young children and act impulsively. Aka you make it mad then it mauls you. Like a tiger would behave.
Not really, the symbiote is aware of it's hosts feelings and emotions, it's also aware of their personality and has access to all of their memories, it was shown to want to bond with peter immediately and it 100% new that Harry would die without it, it attached onto peter when he was dying because it knew that nobody would try to stop it,it amplified every doubt and every bit of anger and resentment peter has ever had, it's goal from the start was to find the best host it could and take over the planet, it manipulated peter into believing that he needed the symbiote to protect everyone, and with Harry it convinced him that he would heal the world by turning everyone into symbiotes, during the final fight we see that harry is trying to fight back, he knew what he was doing was wrong and was trying to stop but the symbiote had complete control by then. When they mention that it's the real them it's not them talking it's the symbiote.
To me the symbiote while being portrayed as dangerous its execution is pretty damn near flawless. Youre right it learns but it “helps,” on the original comics the symbiote used Peter’s body to fight crime because thats what it thought he would’ve wanted. And being separated from him it felt angry and upset, so when it bonded with Eddie it multiplied anger. It took decades for Eddie to rebound from that. But it did happen. In my eyes Scream’s boss fight showcase what the symbiote does to the mind. It draws out your inner most thoughts and insecurities, Harry lost his mom but he moved on, and getting that second chance he was happy. He was soaring, the second he lost it all the color just leaves his face, even with Peter working to give it back he became extremely depressed. And more importantly Peter didn’t succumb to the symbiote UNTIL he saw what Kraven was doing to Connors, the toll that would take on him. And he gets angry and the suit amplifies that.
Peter was already dealing with aggression and stress, which left his better judgement already susceptible but it's the symbiote that capitalized on it and altered Peter's mind, towards actions he would never do, Like substance abuse If an initial thought of hurting someone after an argument, Your immediate better judgement and morale kicks in within seconds, But substance abuse can capitalize on a single thought or feeling and like that you could do something you'd normally wouldn't do Atleast that's how I understand it, but I could be wrong
@@aarkproductions The symbiote wanted to help better because better is the perfect host but when peter realized what the. Symbiote was doing to him he didnt want it anymore. So it found harry again who was mad at peter and it decide it wanted revenge
The Deadpool thing got retconned. Venom had several hosts before it wound up on Battleworld. One was a Kree Soldier, and another was a genocidal madman that wiped out an entire species.
Martin Li puts it best when he and Miles are in Peters' mind. Killing villains isn't what Peter thinks he should do but it is what he feels. That pretty sums up everything with the symbiote, it's not what he thinks but it is how he feels.
I see your points but it is more likely that the symbiote brings out the darker impulses and intrusive thoughts of the host like Peter wanting recognition or MJ being angry at Peter but that doesn't mean that agree with these feelings because we see evidence to the contrary in the beginning and near the end of the story.
I'd argue that the symbiote is just more inclined to take "the easiest way out" of dealing with circumstances, the most efficient method of dealing with the problems they're faced with, and without the brand of morality that humans consider normal, that can be very brutal all things considered. We can partly see this in smaller instances like where Peter leaps to attack the helicopter without thinking, and gets blown up for it. Even if Peter still didn't know about the rocket defense system, he probably would have still been cautious, but the Symbiote's lean towards the most direct solution helped push him into that reckless action, and of course being "drunk off the power boost" and blinded by the amplified rage probably helped too
Peter was already dealing with aggression and stress, which left his better judgement already susceptible but it's the symbiote that capitalized on it and altered Peter's mind, towards actions he would never do, Like substance abuse If an initial thought of hurting someone after an argument, Your immediate better judgement and morale kicks in within seconds, But substance abuse can capitalize on a single thought or feeling and like that you could do something you'd normally wouldn't do Atleast that's how I understand it, but I could be wrong
I think the symbiote only told their host's deepest thoughts. It even somehow knew Miles wanted the symbiote for himself out of jealousy. Or that Peter wanted to bond again despite having the anti-venom.
The symbiote amplifies emotions. It became obsessed with Peter and thus tried to isolate him so he could have him for himself. Then became venom after Spider-Man separated from him
I think an important point he miss is that a person can have frustration with their partner but still be supported, and just because the frustration is out doesn't mean the supportive side is any less real.
That’s what I’ve been saying, but you really can’t put all the blame on Peter, if kraven wasn’t so hungry for death and almost kill Peter the symbiote wouldn’t have lached on to him. People were also saying that if Peter kept having the symbiote on long enough he would have eventually became venom, which is true but let me tell you this. He is a superhuman who still has that control and mental stability over his mind and has his best friends life support and is thinking of keeping it, vs a mentally ill human who has the same disease as his mother and does not have the mental stability to control the symbiote. It makes sense he instantly becomes venom rather then the healthy relationship he had with it at first, I really wish Peter can cure Harry of his disease with anti venom. (I also wish we can get an anti venom agent venom since it had a perfect bond and it was on Harry for way longer then Pete.) sorry for yappin for so long
I felt like Harry had good control over it at first with the Agent Venom phase. That one scene where he was beating the shit outta Kraven he was able to stop himself to focus on his dying friend. The Symbiote has proven they all have mental turmoil so it probably was more so of Harry’s situation that transformed him into true venom the second time. At that point he was a desperate dying man who felt betrayed by Peter who wouldn’t give the suit back. There was no cure in sight either so that probably fueled the hatred inside him compared to in beginning where he was just happy he got his life back. Really wish they got cure for my guy tho.
Sorry, you got me confused when you said something about Peter thinking about keeping his best friend’s child support? Or did you mean his childhood friend’s support? If so, so is MJ and she’s currently his girlfriend but he still almost killed her. And yes, I say the unconscious Peter almost killed her because this vid said that Harry was the one that killed Kraven and not Venom. I thought it was very evident that it was Venom in full control during that whole sequence because of his sudden realization after killing Kraven, but Harry’s the ine who says “what did I just do?” while at his mom’s grave, so that’s a really good point and interesting perspective. Also Harry isn’t mentally ill. Lastly, I don’t think Harry instantly became Venom due to lack of control compared to Peter, I would say Harry demonstrated more control over the symbiote but even that isn’t true, they both used the symbiote powers pretty effectively but also struggled against Venom’s influence and ultimately getting him off of themselves. It just seemed like Venom simply accumulated enough power and negativity to reach the final breaking point when he got back onto Harry, the betrayed, jealous dying man.
@@TheNature904i think you have a good argument but on that world i think the most important change on venom was that after bonding with peter the symbiote got stronger (after bonding and merging with part of the rock that connors shows him) and that was a key factor to corrupt harry Anyway insomniac didn’t bother to explain
I think symbiote was making Peter evil, because Peter was a perfect host, we have been shown that symbiote WANTS Peter specifically, probably because he is not some dying cripple, but a fucking superhero. The reason symbiote made Peter evil, was to turn him against everyone in his life, to prevent itself and Peter being separated, so that Peter was alone and it had him all to itself, now it wasn't the suit that needed Peter, it was Peter who needed the suit. It's similar to how drugs and cults work, they separate you from everyone and everything in your life and only live themselves as the only way out, positive thing in your life.@@TheNature904
The one problem isn’t only just the symbiote wanting more power, it’s also Venom from the start mentally taking over Harry in the bacta tube. Harry says he had nightmares nearly the entire time he was in the tube, and that his mother was telling him of his purpose. Later, we see a line of venom talking to Harry but through his mom’s voice, overall, venom was evil and mentally took over his hosts by making them use that rage they keep in them.
The only thing I’ll say about Scream is that from my perspective, it gave MJ a way to VENT…like, yes she has these thoughts, but she wouldn’t ACT on them, or at least not like this, and I know that if my partner had these problems with me, I wouldn’t just accept the apology flat out, I would try to be better, I may not succeed, but I’d at least try…and from what I remember, Peter DOES try at the end of the game, he restarts the Emily-May Foundation and takes a break from Spider-Man stuff The only OTHER thing I’ll say, is this quote from Venom on the marvel wiki says almost EVERYTHING you said in this video, but from the goop itself; “Been to many worlds, but none of them this strange. Understood feelings before, but simple feelings - like colors, bold and bright. Happy. Sad. Angry. Then... met Spider-Man. Feelings got complicated. Learned guilt. Also the first time I felt fear. Felt agony. Learned feeling: Betrayal. Learned first words they called me. Monster. Parasite. Bad.[...] Feels good to be a hero. Did bad things, too. Can't deny. Mac Gargan was bad. Thoughts like poison stingers. It was a thrill to kill. Knew it was bad. Didn't care. Gargan made it easy. Got to punish Gargan for what he did. He was evil and afraid. Lee Price was not afraid. He was a soldier. Hurt and desperate. I trusted him. Talked to him. But Lee was too strong. Didn't want to talk. Didn't want to be a hero. Wanted power. Couldn't stop the bad things he was doing. Lee was bad. Hurt me. Eddie hurts me too, sometimes, but Eddie is different. Eddie never means to.[...] If Eddie is good, why do we disagree? If disagree... am I a monster? Parasite? Bad? Can't be bad. Wasn't bad with Flash. Fought with heroes. Was a hero. Trained another symbiote. Got to learn. Got to teach. Flash called me partner. Was never afraid like Spider-Man. But Flash is gone... and heroes don't hide. Not from anything... especially their mistakes.”
This is why i love how venom gets introduced because of what you said its true peters hidden anger and hatred was practically brought into the light by the symbiote. They even said it themselves. The symbiote brings out your emotions. And peters hate and anger from losing and falling made him into someone that was out of character which is why hes one of my fav heroes. Hes so relatable. And venom is so relatable too he was betrayed and turned to be seen as a monster when it was just going off of what it learned.
I agree with this video 100% the Klyntar were never evil by nature. Their creator Knull was. These creatures are like blank canvases until they bond with a host, good or bad. A good example was in the comics when Deadpool bonded with one, this bond practically caused it to have twisted outlook on life and then latched onto Peter which made things worse. It’s the same principle. Symbiotes bond, adapt and sometimes amplify everything that makes the host who they are. If you have suppressed emotions the symbiotes unleashes it. It doesn’t twist desire it just doubles it. Cletus Kassidy, his symbiote has his blood already merged with its genetic core. Meaning it has all of Kassidy’s twisted and diabolical thoughts and emotions. He was already his “true self” if anything the symbiote is perfectly fused and amplifies Cletus’ emotions and desires.
What makes the symbiote stories so compelling is the fact the symbiote doesn't force you to think thoughts it only builds off what's already there and so the reason the symbiote is so scary in the comics is because the characters understand those were them those actions were their deepest desires and so they have to better themselves as people. It's a shame the newer material just goes the easy way out and blame everything on the suit.
Insomniac has written the story purposefully ambiguous because they know that the symbiote isn't inherently evil but they wanted to make it *seem* that way to the audience. It's been like that since conception, but I think Insomniac did it perfectly because people actually believe the symbiote is evil but they purposefully built the plot in ways that it can be argued against. Not once did the Symbiote did anything wrong outside of protecting itself and the host while mimicking the host's memories and emotions.
You got a point. I really do like how they portrayed the symbiote in the insomniac game but I just feel it had the potential to show the symbiote in a different way.@@legend213
This is an interesting take. I think it's a bit of both. The people were able to suppress their negative feelings, the symbiote amplified them, like a teenager's hormones
@@TheNature904That's called having a victim complex. Also known as, blaming others when it's convinient for them and never owning up to their mistakes.
This was an EXCEPTIONALLY well written video essay/ hot take. You completely made sense to me and now I might even add this idea to my personal head canon. Amazing job, I will definitely be subscribing 😁
I’m not too educated on symbiotes, but it makes me feel like it moves to the more conflicted people since they are more likely to trust them due to their feelings. Which eventually leads to being taken over or losing control of your emotions.
I wanna say this even more possible. As later if im rembering in comics the whole thing revealed is that the symbiote and host must be balanced and in union and not angry.
"Been to many worlds, but none of them this strange. Understood feelings before, but simple feelings - like colors, bold and bright. Happy. Sad. Angry. Then... met Spider-Man. Feelings got complicated. Learned guilt. Also the first time I felt fear. Felt agony. Learned feeling: Betrayal. Learned first words they called me. Monster. Parasite. Bad.[...] Feels good to be a hero. Did bad things, too. Can't deny. Mac Gargan was bad. Thoughts like poison stingers. It was a thrill to kill. Knew it was bad. Didn't care. Gargan made it easy. Got to punish Gargan for what he did. He was evil and afraid. Lee Price was not afraid. He was a soldier. Hurt and desperate. I trusted him. Talked to him. But Lee was too strong. Didn't want to talk. Didn't want to be a hero. Wanted power. Couldn't stop the bad things he was doing. Lee was bad. Hurt me. Eddie hurts me too, sometimes, but Eddie is different. Eddie never means to.[...] If Eddie is good, why do we disagree? If disagree... am I a monster? Parasite? Bad? Can't be bad. Wasn't bad with Flash. Fought with heroes. Was a hero. Trained another symbiote. Got to learn. Got to teach. Flash called me partner. Was never afraid like Spider-Man. But Flash is gone... and heroes don't hide. Not from anything... especially their mistakes."-Venom Symbiote just this quote from the original symbiote from the actual Comic version tells you everything you need to know from the way it's worded to even the way it talks about itself from the point that the quote originated from anyway
Tbh I'd say to some degree this has always been the case. The only adaptation I can think of where the Symbiote was explicitly depicted as being purely malicious from the start is the '94 animated series and the Ultimate comics. In the OG comics it was pretty much just a neutral alien that wanted to help Peter from it's own understanding (or lack thereof) of an understanding of human emotions. It only became spiteful and vengeful as we see it with Venom as a direct result of Peter leaving it to die (with Eddie and the Symbiote basically enabling each other's hatred). In Spectacular Spider-Man (from what I remember, at least) it moreso just seems to want to make Peter feel good, enabling his negative qualities and rationalizing his bas decisions. Similarly to the comics, it seems to be something that wants to help Peter but lacks the understanding of humanity to do so properly. Even stuff like Spider-Man 3 establishes Peter's growing ego, sense of entitlement, and decreasing empathy for others as part of his arc way before he even obtains the Symbiote. Like the villains in the previous Raimi movies, the Symbiote didn't make Peter evil, it just amplified the negative traits he already had. What's odd to me is that all of those adaptations seem to be doing the "Peter's flaws are the real problem" narrative intentionally but with this game it set up the perfect story for that only to go "nah it really is just the Symbiote's fault lol".
Thank you! You literally summarized how I’m feeling about everything. The thing that makes venom so compelling in more recent stories is the fact that the symbiote brings out the worse in Peter but in this game, there’s nothing worse to bring out. Peter is a goody super hero with no flaws so when he gets the symbiote it feels so disingenuous and fake as if the symbiote forces him to act this way instead of Peter acting that way due to the suit. It’s like this game it control him vs other iterations it influences him.
There is one important note that I think you missed at 4:07 during the game harry said how he could hear hi’s mother’s voice telling him to heal the world and then the developers showed us through sound cues that it was venom telling harry to heal the world while he was in the tank before it met Spider-Man so venom either already was going to “heal the world” his own way or his ways changed after he was rejected by Peter I think it’s the first one though
Are we forgeting the fact that the symbiote dint want to leave peter"s body. The symbiote decides his host over its genetics. Like literally it will choose a bodybuilder automatically over a dying guy. Also its alien that literally feeds on dominant emotions. Which the story involves around dark emotions which kraven was the catalyst or start of these emotions to begin with. Like i blame kraven more than anybody else
@@TheNature904 Exactly because the thing is that I defend that the symbiote for its neutral nature like in the comics and that peter dint help with that like almost every adaptation. Its a weird 50/50 moment that you feel is the situation for the problem which is why I love the symbiote saga a lot.
This video remember me A LOT what Eddie said to Ann after whe became She-Venom: *Venom, The symbiote, does NOT control you, It only release your repressed feelings, It never makes you to do something that you truly didn't want*
I think you misunderstood the MJ thing. 1. Pete had been treating her like shit with the suit. 2. She doesnt despise Pete she despises Jameson who she has to put up with to try and support not only herself but also pete who she doesnt get much time with because spiderman takes precedence so shes more so angry at spiderman for making her and the man she loves have a harder life we see so many time how Jameson is horrible to work under but shes actively having to write hate pieces because that's what jameson wants. When pete works for jameson it was just pictures of himself he was a photographer not reporter it's a very different ballpark. Anyway remember that venoms first ever contact when it got to earth was someone who would be a villain so you could argue it was tainted from that moment on and Peter's emotions and harry's emotions and their dream corrupted it the most
Two things can be true simultaneously. The key difference here is Peter gets called out for his actions while under the influence. MJ meanwhile hit *exclusively* below the belt throughout that whole boss fight and never got held accountable for any of it.
@@eldredge_ape Because MJ managed to stop his symbiosis and decided to change her perspective, controlling for a brief moment the Scream transformation so she can be free again. MJ had all those feelings but never managed to tell Pete because she knew deep inside it wasn't all his fault, but feelings are complicated to overcome or just disregard. Even Peter knew that MJ was saying that out of spite just like Peter said a lot of stuff out of spite, both know the other too well and accepts their flaws and talk about it. Also MJ stuff it's just feelings and can be talked about, Peter almost destroyed the city in his black suit xd of course he's gonna get called out for his actions more thant MJ.
Pete had been treating her like shit even WITHOUT the suit, she's made to feel like the less important one, always be the sidekick even though she's the one that's keeping his life intact and put food on the table
@@hornitako7006but she is the less important one She doesn't have powers and constantly gets in danger and if you were to ask the city who they would rather lose 90% would say MJ as Peter has power and can make an actual difference.
@@Silver-sr4ocBoth Ganke and MJ are very important sources of info and support for the Spider-Men. To say that MJ isnt important because she doesnt have powers is insane because without her help in the first game, whether you liked the MJ missions or not, Pete wouldnt know anything about Devil’s Breath or how to stop it. In this game, she’s offering to pay his mortgage and put up with his barely being around, and still helps to provide key info
Also, keep in mind the only reason Venom exists in his monstrous form the way that he does is because the Symbiote wanted to bond with Peter and have a relationship with him, but Peter said “Nah, I’m good.” The Symbiote is a living being with thoughts and feelings. It just got it’s poor heart broken by Peter and he practically forced it find somebody else or die. Remember Symbiote’s can’t survive without a host. Peter seems to be the real monster here when you look at it like that.
The symbiote was evil. Are y'all forgetting that Conners wiped its memories? It craved power as soon as it saw Peter. When the symbiote touched the stone it basically remembered it's full mission. Harry mentions that he started EmilyMay because he heard his mom talking to him to continue her dream. That was venom pretending to be his mom talking to him. It was manipulating Harry the entire time.
Exactly. It has the ability to manipulate memories, so when it was using Peters sleeping body and attacking MJ, it had to know who she was and what she meant to Peter.
To me the OG symbiote (not scream) is very defensive and maybe has a god complex. It only gets angry when it, Peter, Harry, or Miles are threatened. When Peter sees MJs negative article about him he’s only worried but shortly after Harry tells him he needs the suit back he gets angry. When he arrives home after lizard wrangling he’s calm until hunters sneak up on him while he’s sleeping. The suit is the thing that can save Harry’s life and make Peter the best SM he can be. It really does see itself as the solution and thinks the endgame is right. Also if Peter has a symbiote why doesn’t he try to heal Harry himself?
He did try to heal harry the symbiote wouldn't bond with harry, I assume this is due to Peter just being a better stronger host. Now that it is an anti-venom suit Peter has tho I don't see why he couldn't give that to harry considering it should listen to him no?
@@Jlopezocasio Maybe the anti-venom can't leave him? I also think because he couldn't give the symbiote back when he got it means he also didn't know how to do it with anti-venom and he had no time to try?
I fall kinda somewhere in the middle of all this. I agree on a lot of the points. However, to me, it seemed that after peter first came into contact with the meteorite during his meeting with Connors. The symbiote started to become more sentient? Like before it seemed to just boost whatever desires and emotions peter was feeling at the time, but the voices and stuff really started to come out after. If I remember correctly, Harry didn't talk about any hivemind before peter got the suit. But it seemed like when he got the suit back, it was more sentient, and twisted Harrys desire to align with it's own desire to create a new symbiote world/reproduce its kind. Basicly I'm saying, I think the symbiote wasn't linked to the hivemind until after it touched the meteorite when peter came into contact with it.
I was always under the impression in this game that everything thr symbiote makes them say is deep rooted in truth. Deep down, somewhere, maybe even unconsciously, what the symbiote brings out is their true feelings. I thought that peter and mj were going to realize that those things that were said we're their true thoughts deep down, and needed to address after the invasion. But mj seems to, awkwardly dismiss it as "not being them"?, i find that kind of odd.
it's not that far off from reality, using the alcohol metaphor, people under the influence will let out their deepest feelings and act in ways that come from their primal instincts/emotions. I've seen it for myself, but afterward, they'll blame the alcohol despite it clearly not being the only reason. That's the role Venom plays in this game and reveals a dark truth about human nature.
@@AlphaNinjaFTW1 you’re right, primal instincts is not all that makes someone who they are, but it does reveal something things about them that influences who they are
This is correct, When he's wearing the symbiote, The symbiote shows the negative side of Peter, the side Peter doesn't wanna show. The symbiote just brings out the other side of Peter, And Peter always had a negative side, he just holds it in and doesn't show it...
Quick reminder that in the comics, venom used to do Spider-Man stuff while Peter was sleeping, even facing his fear of fire to save people and only stopped when he realized that it was hurting Peter. Then Peter immediately got rid of him which pissed venom off and made him evil.
Good vid. The symbiote is supposed to amplify and bolster your inner feelings and what you already are deep down! And thats exactly what happened in the game with MJ and Pete
I always loved the comparison of the symbiote and how it adapts to Peter to alcohol and alcoholism. Alcohol doesn’t make you belligerent or aggressive, it dulls your logical faculties and releases inhibitions. You may not always treat people the way you want to, but you will treat them the way you feel the should be treated in the moment… for better or for worse, based on your own temperament and mental state. The symbiote is truly no different. The power high makes you feel good, stronger, safer, and you feel less inhibited to speak your mind and ignore the consequences of your words or actions. And in time, the Symbiote becomes a direct reflection and associate of that more “honest and true” version of yourself. Let it be known that in the comics, the Symbiote was out there saving people’s lives and protecting the city safely in Peter’s sleep for awhile… because it was learning positive traits and enhancing them at first. It’s a fantastic allegory for the responsibility we have to put on our own actions and how treating the reason we fall into addiction is just as important as analyzing the addiction itself.
I think that was clear, but it sounds out of line when you remember Peter had been the focal point of J Jonah Jamesons hate while working for him for a good portion of his life.
@@GreaterGrievobeast55I don't know, I mean it was clearly taking a toll on her but she didn't want to give Peter that baggage, of course it's going to be out of pocket because the Scream symbiote let out her deeper thoughts, though at the same time any words MJ fought back against was probably the symbiote interpreting those thoughts in the wrong way. Like sure she had her frustrations with Peter, but she still needed him despite Scream interpreting her deeper frustrations as not needing him
I found this reading very fascinating. The Symbiote was still dangerous before Peter but bonding with him and absorbing all of his trauma and repressed rage is what fueled it to become Venom with Harry. I think what influenced its world conquering was discovering the meteorite that it likely never would’ve found without Peter and it co-opted Harry’s “Heal the world” mission to manipulate him. I think Peter and the Symbiote is analogous to a toxic relationship. They were a terrible match for each other and brought out all the latent badness within. Venom is the direct result of Spider-Man succumbing to his inner turmoil and hurting the people around him by giving Harry a REASON to hate.
Now I feel like if Peter was in a better place mentally while bonded with the Symbiote he could've kept it without any problems and I do firmly believe it was never evil but just simply going along with whatever it's hosts thinking or feeling
Hmmmm you got a point there, in the Spider-Man 3 movie Dr. Connors did say it "amplifies characteristics of its host" the symbiote tries to bond with all of you and brings out your true self
Depending on how true to the source material this game is (it does take liberties, after all), there is a narrative that says the symbiotes are heroic by nature, or seek heroism. However, if they bond with an imperfect being, it corrupts them into the horrors we're familiar with (see Agents of the Cosmos). Both the symbiote and host are affected, so using MJ's possession by Scream as an example, the symbiote does exasperate negative emotions, feed on them, but it doesn't create them out of nowhere. I think, given enough time, even Harry would've corrupted Venom, since his hatred of his own weakness and fear of death was strong enough to compel him to make the Emily-May Foundation in the first place. It just would've taken significantly longer compared to Peter, as we saw. Granted, symbiotes in the comics are supposed to be super vulnerable to fire, but Venom isn't fazed by it in this game. So, who knows
To be fair despite everyone being themselves and showing their worst self the symbiote does in fact significantly amplify negative emotions. Anger, grief, sadism ect.
There's a reason I almost started to tear up the scream boss fight, it's because that MJ saying all of those things not the symbiote. Also a very good observation that the evil carried on from Peter.
My parents have had worse arguments without symbiote influence tbh, but they ultimately love eachother. Sometimes you just need to get it out of your system. Also if merely having dark thoughts is enough for Venom to be triggered, it could happen to anyone eventually. (Also the inclusion of Anti-Venom already irked me, as it undermines the themes to give Peter that power with no downsides, but I didn’t realise it could theoretically cure Harry too!)
Apologies for how long this comment is. 3:23, Taking a look at Venom throughout the story, it’s implied that it took interest in Peter early on when it grabbed him. That it had already noticed him to be a more suitable host, a host with power unlike the other creatures around him, attributes that would make it stronger and better protected (as symbiotes bond to hosts for their own survival, at times, at the hosts expense) far more than it would be in its then-current host, Harry, who was suffering from a debilitating genetic disease that it’s ability to heal seemingly could not remove. Upon this potentially superior host coming close to death, Venom makes the choice to abandon Harry to save him (it can be argued this was motivated instead or also by Harry’s grief over seemingly being about to lose his best friend but since symbiotes can be just as influenced by their host’s minds as they influence the minds of their hosts) and is thus exposed to Peter’s buried negative emotions, emotions he normally contains and controls with his focus on helping other people, his compassion and his sense of humility. Venom continues to amplify Peter’s negative emotions until this compassion and humility becomes progressively eroded until Peter is left frustrated, impatient and increasingly cruel, motivated by his insecurity over his losses and perceived failures and a desire to make up for them through a more aggressive approach (one the symbiote would benefit from as it would essentially be conditioning Peter into an apex predator, an individual without anyone that could oppose them or harm them). By the time Venom touches the meteorite, it becomes strong enough to fully control Peter’s body as he sleeps and then when it is forced to rejoin Harry after Peter abandons it, it begins to reveal it has more of its own will (or rather being operated by a larger will in the form of either the Klyntar Hivemind or Knull himself judging by the spiral symbols on the meteorite and the symbiote drones) and uses Harry to carry out an invasion plan using the meteorite, exploiting and perverting his desire to benefit the world to suit its plan (6:08, Harry, under Venom’s influence, even calls this new state he’s achieved the “real” him, as is it his deepest insecurities that are brought to the surface for Venom to use to manipulate him, which may have also been helped by the pills Harry was taking and seeming abusing in a reference to his addiction storyline in the comics). Scream similarly is shown to use M.J’s hidden resentment towards Peter, frustration at the apparent insignificance of her own job working for an obnoxious oaf like Jameson and the subsequent feelings of inadequacy of being a normal person whose partner is a superhero to keep her control her, keep her wanting to stay bonded to it, like an addict’s dependency on their vice of choice. 5:32, And of course Peter is forgiving because he’s been infected by a symbiote himself, knows that they amplify negativity and is a normally patient and compassionate person; this whole fight is just a superheroic version of a domestic dispute, an argument a couple could have prevented if they’d gotten the chance to just talk when the problems leading up to it were smaller and more manageable, though airing out their baggage does give her the courage to confront her issues, meaning there is indeed something positive to say about the experience. But with Mile’s intervention, Peter is reminded of the person he was, the person who sacrificed much of his happiness, peace of mind and personal safety so that people he would never know wouldn’t have to suffer the kind of loss he did. More importantly, he’s reminded of the compassion and care for others that allowed him to bare what he suffered through. He may have not been strong enough to have recognized and fought Venom’s influence himself, but he gained the tools through the experience to help M.J. and to a lesser extent, Harry, over their “demons” which the symbiotes were using to control them and remind them of who they were as well. 6:56, It is true that Peter (and the other two) needed external help to be reminded of this and that Venom’s influence was strong enough to subvert his will for a time. Peter, Miles and Li know that there are parts of even good people that are unsavory and in the right situation, they can be made to lose control of that side (Li even uncovers a part of Peter’s psyche that considers killing his villains even though he feels like he should never kill). But both this game and its predecessors tend to explore the duality in people that pushes them towards embracing either side of themselves. One character that does so particularly well is Yuri, who went from a police captain to a murderous vigilante after going made with rage and insecurity after failing to protect her men from criminals. On one hand, she’s cruel, brutal and fully willing to fight her allies if she feels they obstruct her from punishing those she deems deserving, but on the other hand, even she has a limit to how ruthless she is willing to be in order to get her target, as he lets Cletus Cassidy (an irredeemable, unrepentant, death-worshipping cult leader armed with a symbiote container) escape so she could save Spiderman from burning alive because she would rather feel guilt over those she killed rather than those she couldn’t save, and losing Spiderman would doom people he could’ve otherwise been able to protect. Despite her losing control of her worst aspects, showing she lacks the kind of will Peter does to not let himself become like that without external influence eroding that will, she is still more than just her anger and hate towards criminals, more than her worst self. It’s a solid theme for a superhero story to show both the virtues and flaws of both villains and heroes in equal measure, as it makes the characters more relatable, more like people.
I get what you’re saying because when Harry had the symbiote, it didn’t change him, but for Peter, he was holding on to a lot anger and regret which affected the venom
I’m over here thinking it’s because it wasn’t exposed to loud noise yet when the WHOLE time that’s just who they really were! And in the beginning that’s just who Harry really was!! So that’s all the venom knew!!
I think that the symbiote didn’t expose who Pete is but the small and dark feelings that like him we all have, we know they are wrong and we know that’s not what we want but their still their, I think that the fact that he realized what it was doing to him shows how good of a person he is
I'm mean yeah, in the comics the symbiote was a an alien suit at first. Which peter took off after he found out it was using him when he was unconscious tp fight crime. We in this case venom was just trying to help peter or please him. After Peter took him off then did the character of venom come out, primarily with vengeance towards peter. Cause he did everything to help and please Peter and Pete just freaked out and took it off
I think it’s more so the symbiote heavily enhances negative emotions the good and the bad harry sounded genuinely great when he had it in the first half he calmed down a good bit when he lost it by the time Peter refused to give him the suit he was so fucking angry and once he got it back he killed a man it enhanced his emotions most likely to actually be able to better understand emotions
I've always loved the idea that the symbiote;s true love is Peter, I felt that in this game when it kept reaching out to peter when it was bonded to harry was the initial pull it had for him, it seeks for the best host and it saw that in peter and when it finally got to him and was then ripped away it was hurt, and just wanted to be back with him, the whole "we want to work with you on this peter" was definitely feelings of harry and the symbiote combined feelings and we see that when venom is fighting miles when he rants about how miles took peter away from him, that wasn't harry talking that was the symbiote.
Well venom basically just lets those repressed emotions and thoughts out depending on the user,so this totally makes sense just like when tobey got it it was him but it was the dark nerd version of him were he let his emotions take over
You just said that the reason Venom became evil is because of Peter and how he feels deep down and then when you talk about MJ say oh no that must be how she really feels. Maybe in some instances she has those feelings deep down but the fight is able to help her gain the courage to change certain things she was too afraid to change, like quitting the Bugle and Moving into Peter's house etc... so yeah she may have had those feelings deep down but it was the Symbiote who dragged them to the surface. Also remember her Symbiote is very different from the one Peter had on when he was going dark, instead of it trying to help her but she still be in control it simply controlled/corrupted her and had her darkest thoughts and impulses rise to the surface.
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This is a PRIME example of Nature vs Nurture and Venom's Nature is to be a Hive Mind, something to control but a Hivemind is to LINK thoughts which Nurtured Venom into hatred and a "BEAST" which is like Megamind
Mega venom 😂
Megamind reference
Kind of why I don’t really understand the utter hatred of titan, other than the shallow arguement of “bEtA mAlE”
Peter was already dealing with aggression and stress,
which left his better judgement already susceptible
but it's the symbiote that capitalized on it and altered Peter's mind, towards actions he would never do,
Like substance abuse
If an initial thought of hurting someone after an argument,
Your immediate better judgement and morale kicks in within seconds,
But substance abuse can capitalize on a single thought or feeling and like that you could do something you'd normally wouldn't do
Atleast that's how I understand it, but I could be wrong
@@Some_guy-on-the-internetno host? 🥺
The only flaw here is that the symbiote, since the first moment it came in proximity to Peter while on Harry, showed that it wanted Peter _over_ Harry. It wanted more power.
After their first tag-team, the symbiote tries to latch on Peter and takes a bit of him, creating a simulacra of his spider symbol on Harry's armor after Peter manages to tear himself away from it's grasp. The symbiote knew it would be stronger with Peter, be harder to kill and sealed away like it was for ages, forced into a dying host he didn't chose and kept prisoner until it's captor deemed it convenient.
When Peter was dying and unable to resist, it took it's opportunity knowing Harry wouldn't fight it, knowing that saving Peter and empowering him would further lessen the chances of him rejecting it without outside help.
The symbiote took every fear, every bit of resentment, every bit of anger towards his enemies, his desire to protect his close ones and amplified them a thousandfold. Making Peter believe he _needed_ it to be what everybody needed him to be.
It corrupted him for it's own survival and desire for power, knowing it could exploit Peter's desires and strength.
More than that, it literally _possessed_ Peter's sleeping body and almost killed MJ, that _wasn't_ Peter. Even enraged he would never do that.
Thank you for explaining why the symbiote isn't blameless is Spider-man 2, and even though Venom isn't necessarily evil, it is still very dangerous, and does really brings the worst in people. After fighting crime for so long and going through traumatic events, it's not surprising that Peter would developp a lot of rage, insecurity and regret in himself, feelings that he tries to supress most of the time (which isn't healthy) and unfortunatelly, the sybiote happened to found those exact feelings in Peter after bonding with him, and ended up amplifying them and bringing them out in the worst way possible.
Agreed
Also Venom was Memory wiped tho, after touching the Meteorite it regained all it's Memories
Someone who knows their symbiote facts 💯🙏🏽🔥
@@leviakasuna2806Fr man just took the time to explain, mate deserves a lil virtual medal
@@nohr3242 hell yea he does lol let’s make him one 😋
The blame is on Peter, but at the same time, it isn't because Venom is basically a drug; if you've watched or read any other iterations of venom, you would know this, and Yuri L. even said it himself that it wasn't just venom or Peter; It was both of them, and Harry's emotions made it 10x worse because he felt backstabbed by peter and thought that peter was going to let him die like that.
This is exactly why Venom came to be in the game
I always had seen this incarnation of Venom as a drug. Being a first an medicament used by a sick person (Harry) until it latter became used by another person who isn't supposed to used the medicament (Peter) until the point he transform that medicament into a drug. At the end he (Peter) gets rehibilated and decided to avoid the person (Harry) who actually needs this medicament to survive is not obsession or nothing similar he really needs it and to take it as a way to avoid him getting through the same crap he has gone through.
When did Yuri comment on this?
Venom is effected a lot more by the host
In a Interview with IGN or someone else it's ez to look up tho it's on YT@@whateverwhatever4476
Here’s an easy way to put it. Before touching the rock, symbiote was influenced by Pete’s negative emotions. After touching the rock symbiote was influenced mostly by Knull’s will.
In all fairness, even tho he's the antagonist, he's not evil, he's insane. Most Anti Heroes like Punisher, Deadpool and Wolverine have done bad things but for the right reasons, just as Matt says in the show "Frank Castle is a good man, he just doesn't know the difference between right and wrong", you can't blame an alien for being unable to act human when all he was trying to do was survive and support Peter's emotions.
Well said. This is exactly why Carnage is so dangerous and the bond between the symbiote and Cletus Cassidy is so strong to the point they don't refer to themselves as "we" and are just one entity. Because Cassidy fully embraces his psychotic nature from start to finish, no inner conflicts, no suppressed emotions.
Dude I want to fight Carnage in game soooo bad. Insomniac has a great story between Cassidy and Carnage to develop, I can’t wait
That’s because they are jut one entity.
After wearing the suit for a while, you are given the choice to permanently meld with the symbiote. Your entire biology is broken down and melded together and you are then just one entity.
Not even Eddie Brock does this and he loves venom. But that’s what carnage is, a new creature of evil and blood lust.
Which the movie got utterly wrong
And now they are two entities. The Symbiote who seeks to be the top dog, to claim its place as the ultimate predator through the multiverse; and Cletus who just wants to claim his title as the worst killer around, killing a lot of people for fun
@@EggEnjoyer The actual comics have a much lamer explanation. It's because a part of the original Carnage symbiote bonded with Kassdy's bloodstream through a cut. Why this never happened to Eddie with Venom or especially Peter isn't explained.
The Carnage symbiote in general doesn't seem to really hold its hosts in much regard and always refers to itself as singular even when it leaves Kasady for someone else (like that time it bonded with Silver Surfer). Really, we don't get to see into its mind as much as Venom to see much on its view on Kasady and whether or not its really devoted or is just amused by him. The latter has been shown a few times. Kasady seems to think it likes him but he isn't really reliable...
One point against symbiote is that it started impersonating Harry's mother in his mind. Also Peter's problems with the symbiote started mostly after interracting with the meteorite. Sure, he was more agressive, but looked like he was at least trying to return symbiote to Harry, but it changed after he connected to the meteorite. Also it really wanted to transfer onto Peter from the moment it met him, and it clearly knew that Harry would die without it. I would have believed that it wasn't Venom's fault that it became like this if at any point it either split itself to heal Peter or return part of itself to Harry when Peter tried to return the suit (it clearly can do that) or tried to heal Harry when it got a power boost from the meteorite. Peter despite everything still wanted Harry to live, and Venom could help but didn't until Peter removed it.
Thank you. It's good to see people in the comment who also realize that the symbiote wasn't all blameless in that situation
Well think about it this way. Venom immediately wanting Peter is actually lore accurate. In any venom related comic. The symbiote finds Petef and instantly falls in love with him. Peter is Venom's dream host. Like this is actually said in many comics involving the two. To the point where Venom would literally leave Eddie, who he had a PERFECT bond with, when Peter offered himself to him. So it makes sense that the symbiote observing Peter from within Harry. It creates that instant interest. When he finally getsbthe chance, he JUMPS onto Peter. But he won't leave Peter the same way he left Harry. Because Spiderman is always the symbiote's one and only true love. As weird as that sounds, they portrayed that very well.
*you were the reason we seperated*
*I remember what you did in the forest* (Queens)
To make this go even further. Every time Venom fights Spiderman both in-game and in comic, he sounds like a bitter ex or an ex trying to get back together.
Venom is a cruel pragmatic character. Venom gave Eddie cancer just so Eddie wouldn’t abandon it. Really the first true step towards villainy was after saving Conners. When it was suggested that they destroy Venom despite the fact Venom didn’t do much more than make Peter more agro, Venom tensed up and through Peter said in a scared voice “destroy us?” Venom doesn’t want to die. Immediately tried to ramp things up and keep Peter away from everyone that hated Venom. Peter was the safest person. Venom wanted to take over the world because it would help everyone and because it would ensure Venom gets to keep living. Win win scenario as far as Venom is concerned. Symbiotes are immune to disease and make people stronger than they normally are, why not give everyone a Symbiote?
Besides that Venom gets upset when Peter calls Venom a thing, and has a grudge against Miles for separating him from Peter.
I don't know if Insomniac is going to go completely with comic canon, but if they are, then it means that Venom, upon introduction is essentially amoral, since the Klyntar, Venom's species, are a hive-mind of amoral beings enslaved by Knull.
This means that Venom really has no concept of morality or even emotion for that matter. He is just living out his natural life-cycle. However, when he senses a host as powerful as Peter, he gains desire for that host. When he bonds with Peter, he takes Peter's emotions and sense of morality at face value without really understanding any of it. He's basically the mental age of a young toddler.
This is why Venom, strangely, actually reasons that he helps people. This is why his notion of "healing the world" actually makes sense in his head. He knows Peter wants to save the world and he wants to do that for him. So, his solution is to turn everyone into symbiotes because then they'll essentially be immortal.
It's important to note that Venom isn't inherently good or evil. He is an amalgam of the emotions and beliefs of his hosts coupled with his own, reasonably small, sense of self. This is why he doesn't messed up shit like use Harry's mother's voice. Because, as mentioned before, Venom doesn't understand morality. He doesn't understand in the same way Peter does, that doing stuff like that is inherently bad. No, he only understood that Peter didn't like killing people but he didn't understand why. He can't reason morally, he only understands simplistic rules as of yet.
I believe that if Venom bonded with Captain America first, he wouldn't have turned out the way he did. Then again, Peter is a better hero than Cap. Maybe it does just come down to communication, lol. I mean, Tom Hardy's Venom and Eddie Brock very quickly begin communication early on during their relationship.
Lol, maybe all Peter and Venom needed was couple's therapy and for Peter to realise sooner that Venom is a sentient being.
@@julianmcmillan2867calling them amoral is giving them the benefit of the doubt. The Venom Symbiote is the white sheep of the species. Granted it’s probably because of knull.
No one could’ve said it better than nature himself
In the last game Peter defeated Fisk after 8 years of the cops trying to, he defeated Martin Li after a whole week of him terrorizing a whole city, the breakout that happened cuz of Sable’s careless dumbass was blamed on him while he contained as much of it as he can, he stopped the whole sinister six ALL by himself and people say he’s still a menace, he sacrificed his aunt, the one who was there for him since he was a child for the whole city and they still think he’s a menace.
He contains his feelings for the hood of the city but Venom is basically took what he wants to let out and let it all out, he also didn’t kill anyone while he had it
Even after he stopped the venom there are still idiots that believe he’s a menace
All these triumphs and still hasn’t gotten the appreciation rightfully deserved. That’s enough to drive most off the edge WITHOUT the symbiote
@@TheNature904I wanna even add the fact that even in a hive mind venom kinda still does he’s own things and things that he may see as improvements it’s really doing the opposite as he had done in the comics. This game included.
you need ALOT of willpower to deal with being an unsung hero, but 10 years is a different story
@@King_QM23yeah absolutely the symbiote enhances and twists your emotions, anger and hate just happen to be easy emotions to fall into even if it's something small, people will write a complaint about something before they write a good thing about it. I also have a feeling we are gonna get more to do with the symbiote and hive mind either in a venom solo game or a dlc, because both would involve carnage.
@@TheNature904True... in my opinion, the symbiote does not create 'what is not there'. At most it enhances emotions that you feel both positive and negative. Li put it succinctly when he said as he saw Peter's inner thoughts about killing every supervillain "It may not be what he thinks... but it might be what he feels!"
Peter is not as much a 'good guy' as people think he is in the real world. Marvel has made that very clear in "What If" stories.
MJ in this game is pretty chill, calm, more understanding, and flexible compared to the first game. The negativity is still there, but I don’t think she has the same amount of hateful energy anymore. MJ loves and supports Peter enough for me to know that she wouldn’t want to call it quits with him again. When MJ turns into Scream, I think she’s more of a victim to the corruption from the Symbiote than Peter was. And I think it’s because the Symbiote at this point is so much more powerful and corrupted with evil that even the smallest amount of negativity in people can turn them instantly into complete monsters. And for MJ, the only hate she has in this game are J Jonah Jameson and the negative repercussions for Peter being Spider-Man. I don’t think she has any hate for Peter, nor anything he does as Spider-Man. It’s just the negative consequences associated with being Spider-Man that she hates, and I think it’s perfectly fine to hate that sort of issue; life can suck. This MJ is far from being toxic compared to how she was in the first game, and especially compared to her Raimi counterpart.
i miss the part where that is my problem
True
A lot of people hate on MJ for being "toxic". But not all MJs are the Raimi MJ. Each and every MJ is the best girlfriend/wife ANY man could want.
MJ in the game has a weird character model, the only hot chick in the game was Felicia and they turned her into a lesbian goddamn
@@dr.shobhitsharma6272goddamn
Even in the comics venom isn’t an evil symbiote, they’re technically clinically insane. With the Klyntar species there’s two types Pure and corrupt. The pure have the goal to make hero’s where the corrupt feed on their hosts rage. Venom was corrupt but they wanted to still be a hero so his kind saw them as insane. The hosts it had before Peter in comics were an alien hellbent on genocide and Deadpool. This fucked them up and when they saw how tired Peter was of it all it decided “I’m gonna help my new friend out by doing what I know how to do” but they’re still corrupt so they still feed on rage and this combination of course horrified Peter resulting in him removing the symbiote leaving it to feel abandoned and betrayed while still loving Spider-Man this only corrupts it even more when it gets to Eddie Brock who hates Spider-Man and Peter Parker. It’s part of why it keeps a spider on its chest with hosts not because it adapted itself to be Spider-Man it wants to be Spider-Man to be a hero. There’s even a different reality where Peter dies when he removes the alien and it feels bad for what happened so when it bonds with Eddie Brock it forces Eddie to be the new Spider-Man.
Well they all embody the anger and hatred of knull, as they are the hive mind of his creation.
All tho I will say that is a more recent thing, I'm not sure how recent it's definitely not new but it's not like original. Also insomniac is taking a different route completely with their story tho there are similarities in characters and how they behave.
@@Seagull425Yeah but the cool thing is the pure ones grew OUT of that shit and wanna do good. Which actually makes them even more heroic because they grew out of their evil origins to be heroes.
Except the spider thing was retconned to just be Knulls symbol slightly adjusted……after canonically being inspo from Spider-Woman (Julia Carpenter)
Man what a dumb Peter to remove the symbiote if he was going to die
This game did "Peter Parker having pent up rage and violent anger" much better than the latest 616 comic arc
Something I feel a LOT of people should be focusing way more on as a factor is that symbiote artifact that landed with Venom, that thing has Knull's symbol on it, and actively made Venom stronger.
Whenever a symbiote is brought under the influence of Knull in any capacity, they are returned to their original purpose, the destruction and consumption of existence. Klyntar are NOT supposed to have their own thoughts, their own wills, they were created to be vessels for Knull's will, they only became individuals after the loss of their god.
Notice how all the symbiotes that Venom generates on mass with the artifact have the spiral face, never talk, and act as a hivemind with Venom at the top, those symbiotes aren't people, under the influence of the artifact those newly born symbiotes are empty, flesh machines, totally unlike Scream whom Venom births directly from themself, who has the regular eyes and a personality derived from their host's emotions.
Consuming entire planets with symbiotes is something Knull would want, not Harry, not Venom, if that artifact wasn't there on Earth, then Venom's actions and future on Earth would've likely developed far more similarly to what we have in the comics, with them continuing with being a hero, with a skewed moral compass, that eventually comes to friendly terms with Peter.
As long as Venom was on the same planet as that rock, they would be subliminally influenced to carry out their god's will.
Yeah I genuinely think this video is kind of dumb, Venom wasn't corrupted his whole purpose WAS to TAKE OVER THE PLANET and CONSUME and we know this because of that knull spiral symbol. Venom came to the planet with a mission of CONQUERING it. this whole idea of "venom got corrupted venoms a good guy" is honestly so dumb to me it takes 1 second of looking it up to know the argument is kind of wrong
this makes so much sense i never thought about how much influence the artefact had, i disagree that when people have the symbiote they are just letting there emotions free and the symbiote isnt influencing them, i think that the symbiote knows all of their thoughts and feelings and twists them even if the thoughts and feelings are true the malicious intent comes from the symbiote. so i dont know if venom would be a good guy if the artefact wasn't there because before the rock came into question venom was already corrupting people and twisting their minds to make them hateful and evil
Damn the Artifact literally made the Symbiote corrupted from the beginning and without it they could be really pure. So I guess I could agree on both sides I guess
@@Gnar05 it’s not really corruption if the meteor makes venom do what he was born to do
That’s like saying a former pet tiger becomes “currupt” when it’s introduced to its natural habitat and starts eating gazelles
I dident even know all of this, and I figured it was the case
I knew atleast that symbioses were made my someone else with an objective in mind, and based on there capabilities, and how naturaly / easy it was for venom to start taking over the planet, I figured that’s what he was built for
Creatures do best, the things they were built for, and if I could design something that would garentee to destruction and control of a planet, I’d make it a creature that bonds with a host on the microscopic level, since most creatures are hosts to all kinds of micro organisms, virus and parasites
But as a bonus, I’d make my parasite desirable to bond with in a way that enhances the host, meaning even if it Dosent bond with something right away, it’s bound to find SOMETHING that won’t resist it.
That asside, this video does a good job at underlining how venom brings out the worst in people by trying to give them what they want
Often when peoples desires are met, or offered, people will cut corners, and do things they otherwise wouldent in order to get, or keep that which they desired
I thought it was strange that Harry didn’t show any negative signs while having the symbiote for a long time. Peter had it for days and went full villain. Perfect explanation
Thats because at that time harry was just happy to be able to see and be with his friends again
The symbiote Just amplified their insecurities and frustration , he loved and care for Peter from the first Time when venom saw him , saved his life, making him a better Spiderman, but because his emotions Peter started to change not because of the symbiote
Man the symbiote even copy Spiderman logo from Peter chest and from the moment that Peter rejected him that hurts
Even after Venom nearly defeat Peter he wanted to give him another chance
It's like your daily toxic relationship 😂😂😂
FACTS. It’s like trying so hard to get someone to like you but they shut down your advances every time Lol
Yeah venom has always hated Peter because Peter rejects him lol
@@TheNature904 I mean the worst part is Peter may have wanted to destroy it but then Venom going "FUCK IT WE SPREADIN'!" almost validates Peter so the toxic cycle continues. LIKE MY BROTHER IN KNULL AND CHRIST, SIT YOUR ASSES DOWN AND JUST TALK ABOUT THIS SHIT.
@@williambeck2372well, the Venom symbiote was always kinda like “the crazy ex”. Not necessarily an evil person on their own, but the relationship just broke down and became toxic because the two people in it were clearly not compatible. And Venom will say they hate Peter but if Peter offered himself again, the symbiote would go back to him. It’s been a thing in many adaptations where Peter beats and outsmarts Venom by “surrendering” and begging for the symbiote to take it back, and if often abandons its then host and tries to go back. I think Insomniac played on that “attachment” trait in a slightly different way. Rather than being hellbent on hating and killing Peter but deep down wanting to go back, this Venom still cared for Peter and wanted him “by their side” in their own twisted way
I think your forgetting why Peter rejects the symbiote though, you say peter changed not because of the symbiote but that's blatantly not true, it literally amplified the emotions was able to control without it. He literally gets worse because of the symbiote amplifying the emotions. The symbiote is not the only problem, but it IS a problem for Peter.
I'mma just put my opinion out here: MJ was talking about Jonah J Jameson when she said "I write words I don't believe in for a man I despise", she is referring to the article she wrote about Spiderman for the Daily Bugle while Peter still had the Symbiote on him. She doesn't despise Peter, she is saying that it hurt to write that article because it was filled with "words she doesn't believe in" and JJ will always prioritize stuff that bashes on Spiderman and paints him in a bad light; MJ knew it would save her job, but didn't want to do it, she even tries showing her work to Peter in a last-ditch effort to open his eyes to how he was acting while he was the Symbiote's host. I get where you're coming from, and to a point I even agree that the Symbiote enhances the more aggressive aspects of its hosts emotions to get them to act in certain ways, but it still is partially to blame; this is why I don't consider Venom to be a villain, but rather an Anti-Hero. Just my opinion, lemme know what you think.
This makes so much more sense now, thank you. 🖤
That's what I thought too
All I can hear is venom saying: " YES YES...DEFEND US". 😂
This is a fair take. Although you can see MJ disagreeing with the symbiot in the battle. I think the problem is the symbiot can’t differentiate between someone’s actual thoughts and morality, and the dark thoughts and emotions. It’s like when you say something you didn’t mean when you’re angry. The opposite person is always demonized when you’re angry. But when you actually think about him outside of the fight he isn’t a bad guy. And the symbiot can’t tell the difference. More than that, it thinks that since the angry thoughts are more full of emotion, and because of how your brain works when you’re angry or sad, these feelings are what you really think.
Those were definitely feelings MJ had, the same way Peter was having his emotional breakdown, but not only is MJ... about 70-80% right, she still does love Peter on spite of the problems in their relationships. That's how relationships work. And besides, at that point, the symbiote give mine was already super volatile from Peter and Harry.
People often don't suppress negative emotions with positive emotions, they reason them away, but when emotions are too high it is becomes harder. Symbiote enhancing one's emotions but not reason, which would result in some suppressed feelings reaching boiling point and acting out good or bad regardless.
You know what? This take is very much fair. It has been said that Symbiotes aren't natural evil and they simply adapt to the host. There are good symbiotes such as Mania,Toxin,and others that show when given a morally reasonable host,they're actually pretty chill and can be pretty good honestly. Spot on take and has opened my eyes a bit more on this particular story.
I would love to see Toxin in future media. Underrated symbiote.
I would like to have my own symbiote I think it would be cool he will be silver and I will call him Raiden and we would be best pals just chillin and fighting crime together.
@@andrewcabral963 Very wholesome mate
Yea I was thinking of maybe calling the Symbiote Larry or Cole.@@averageenjoyer1662
Except carnage. He's a different breed💀
Also, notice how harry himself didnt know why or how he saved peter at the carnival with his "treatment". So the suit was trying to save people before it made any contact with peter or any type of hatred thanks to harry, since the suit merely wants to bond and help its host. He even infects the city with symbiotes, but never hurts or kills a civilian from my knowledge at least. And after being rejected by peter so many times, both the symbiote and harry still wanted spiderman to be apart of his hive mind/family. So he never hated peter even after all that, which is crazy. If im a symbiote who helped out my best to understand my host, and he hurts me and rejects me. To then try and trap/kill me is crazy. And yet venom dosent try to kill peter, only subdue him.
The symbiote doesn’t corrupt you, it brings the worst aspects of yourself.
💀 I’m pretty sure that means corruption
@@Some_guy-on-the-internetespecially when he was spider man for years without having those problems until the symbiote he wasnt rude until the symbiote took over unlike spider man 3 issue
It doesn't bring the "worst" parts of yourself, it amplifies your deepest desires.
That's why Harry wasn't affected by the symbiote harshly, because he doesnt have trauma like Peter. Besides his mom passing from genetics he doesn't carry any extreme negative emotions, hence why he was the perfect host for the symbiote.
MJ had extreme stress from typical human life and seeing Peter making money, which is why her symbiote was extremely aggressive towards him. Harry had no stress until he hated Peter and Venom attached to his hatred for Peter at the time, while taking on Peter's extreme anger and emotions.
Peter wasn't a proper host.
@@Nolabray21 he didnt have those problems because he was suppressing it all along they symbiote just let it all out
The symbiote is a reflection of what the host truly is.
I feel like the reason the Symbiot is usually depicted the way it is, is due to the fact that acts as an amplifier for emotions and thoughts, and is then corrupted by these amplified thoughts and emotions
I think Harry's homicidal anger towards kraven was truly the beginning of Venom's corruption.
Having Peter as a host furthered that corruption due to all the stress he was carrying and suppressing within himself.
Harry's negative feeling of impotence, jealousy, and betrayal pushed venom over the edge; even then, venom was still altruistic and attempted to heal the world from its perspective.
I think the symbiote would've stayed neutral and, in time, become more good if he only stayed with wholesome Harry from the beginning.
There's also the time Oscorp found it. The first thing that it did may have been trying to bond or consume Dr Connors, but Norman ordered the shot on his arm which could have caught the symbiote in the range of fire. From then on, it may have become an injured animal with hostility towards anyone on Earth, since it is foreign to them and they are foreign to it, until it finally touched Harry.
It would start leeching off of any information from Harry's memories and thoughts while attempting to heal his sickness in a terrifying but still healthy and relatively harmless way. In the opening scene of the game, Harry had a nightmare of being engulfed and entrapped in his case with it, shut away from even the cold laboratory room. Still terrifying, but still effective.
And with your point of Harry feeling jealous, most likely even during the carnival, the symbiote reacted in accordance with his empathy and had moments of aggressively trying to reach out for Spider-Man's powers. Evident when it latched onto Spider-Man's brofist to give Harry his Agent Venom chest symbol. As did it mimicked Spidey's webshooters, Web Glide and any other organic-based equipment/ability.
Still, all speculation from my point of view.
Peter was already dealing with aggression and stress,
which left his better judgement already susceptible
but it's the symbiote that capitalized on it and altered Peter's mind, towards actions he would never do,
Like substance abuse
If an initial thought of hurting someone after an argument,
Your immediate better judgement and morale kicks in within seconds,
But substance abuse can capitalize on a single thought or feeling and like that you could do something you'd normally wouldn't do
Atleast that's how I understand it, but I could be wrong
Lets not forget that the rock had influence over venom
I think for future games harry will be a controlled venom because the rock was destroyed
Maybe a relationship like venom from sony movies where venom just wants to leave his life being antihero and don’t want to control the world anymore
In 2018 venom movie venom doesn’t want that control de world shit that riot wanted
Venom didn't think it was healing the world, it was a way to get Harry on board with spreading the symbiote
@@fukquro maybe.. we don’t know because they didn’t bother to explain
Your explanation of how Harry wasn’t acting strange with the symbiote on actually answers what was bugging me. Cause Peter didn’t even take 2 mins to start acting different 😂🤣
I think during the Venom part of the game think it’s important to remember he only attacked the guards who attacked him and then kraven’s hunters he doesn’t go after the scientist or the people in Time Square. He’s not a monster he’s more like a scared animal or a young child attacking only out of self defence expect with Kraven in which it’s on sight and I think that’s kinda fair. I’ve been of the mind that Venom tries his best to give his host whatever they want but he takes it too the extreme, Spider-Man keeps having problems with Kraven? Venom suggest he just kill him no more kraven, no more problems, Harry wants to heal the world? Give everyone a symboite it helped Harry so of course it would help everyone. To me Venom’s not evil he’s just misguided which is why I hope the Symboite is still out there and can hopefully latch onto Eddie Brock and finally do some good.
I mean even his goal is “to cure the world”, which just includes bringing everyone into the symbiote hive.
Never is his goal to just needlessly kill or hurt people
To add onto your mention of Kraven, Venom killed Kraven because he blames him for being separated from Peter as well.
I agree to the extent that the symbiote isn't necessarily evil it just wants to make its hosts' life as easy as possible and Venom loves Peter he is by far its favourite bond he made Peter say awful things to Harry because he didnt want to go back to him, "it chose me doc, it makes me a better Spider-Man" is venom trying to justify its connection to Peter as Peter was truly trying to get it off and help Harry at the start. MJ was just wilding but you could argue that was Venom trying to actively make Peter feel awful for not being a better partner since he would know how guilty he feels about not being able to provide.
You know what’s funny? In the Scream fight, Peter was fighting two of his pissed off exes.
It’s pretty much foreshadowed in the flashback when Peter punched the wall showing he had that rage in him for a very long time
Exactly. Everyone has an ugly side to their coin. Never 100% pure of heart
"Respectfully, you are teeming with it" moment
This was showcased in the comics as well. Venom does not turn you evil or make you angry, but instead it amplifies and showcases how you really feel. Funny enough I'm pretty sure both Peter and Harry said that their personality was the real them, they meant that.
Even tho venom did become evil bc Peter did not like how he was amplifying his emotions. Being human means to have control of those emotions. Venom has a personality.
@andrewchambliss3351 Symbiotes aren't humans and do not care about most things. They're like dogs, lovable and able to have emotions but they think like young children and act impulsively. Aka you make it mad then it mauls you. Like a tiger would behave.
Not really, the symbiote is aware of it's hosts feelings and emotions, it's also aware of their personality and has access to all of their memories, it was shown to want to bond with peter immediately and it 100% new that Harry would die without it, it attached onto peter when he was dying because it knew that nobody would try to stop it,it amplified every doubt and every bit of anger and resentment peter has ever had, it's goal from the start was to find the best host it could and take over the planet, it manipulated peter into believing that he needed the symbiote to protect everyone, and with Harry it convinced him that he would heal the world by turning everyone into symbiotes, during the final fight we see that harry is trying to fight back, he knew what he was doing was wrong and was trying to stop but the symbiote had complete control by then. When they mention that it's the real them it's not them talking it's the symbiote.
this isnt how it is in the game tho lmao
To me the symbiote while being portrayed as dangerous its execution is pretty damn near flawless. Youre right it learns but it “helps,” on the original comics the symbiote used Peter’s body to fight crime because thats what it thought he would’ve wanted. And being separated from him it felt angry and upset, so when it bonded with Eddie it multiplied anger. It took decades for Eddie to rebound from that. But it did happen. In my eyes Scream’s boss fight showcase what the symbiote does to the mind.
It draws out your inner most thoughts and insecurities, Harry lost his mom but he moved on, and getting that second chance he was happy. He was soaring, the second he lost it all the color just leaves his face, even with Peter working to give it back he became extremely depressed. And more importantly Peter didn’t succumb to the symbiote UNTIL he saw what Kraven was doing to Connors, the toll that would take on him. And he gets angry and the suit amplifies that.
Peter was already dealing with aggression and stress,
which left his better judgement already susceptible
but it's the symbiote that capitalized on it and altered Peter's mind, towards actions he would never do,
Like substance abuse
If an initial thought of hurting someone after an argument,
Your immediate better judgement and morale kicks in within seconds,
But substance abuse can capitalize on a single thought or feeling and like that you could do something you'd normally wouldn't do
Atleast that's how I understand it, but I could be wrong
@@aarkproductions The symbiote wanted to help better because better is the perfect host but when peter realized what the. Symbiote was doing to him he didnt want it anymore. So it found harry again who was mad at peter and it decide it wanted revenge
@@walmartsonic2248
So basically what just I said ...
@@aarkproductions yea we more too help people who didnt understand your comment
@@walmartsonic2248
Excuse me?...
Lol😂
Even the comics confirmed the fact The symbiotes aren't evil their first ever host was Deadpool which is the reason it's so violent.
The Deadpool thing got retconned. Venom had several hosts before it wound up on Battleworld. One was a Kree Soldier, and another was a genocidal madman that wiped out an entire species.
Martin Li puts it best when he and Miles are in Peters' mind. Killing villains isn't what Peter thinks he should do but it is what he feels. That pretty sums up everything with the symbiote, it's not what he thinks but it is how he feels.
I see your points but it is more likely that the symbiote brings out the darker impulses and intrusive thoughts of the host like Peter wanting recognition or MJ being angry at Peter but that doesn't mean that agree with these feelings because we see evidence to the contrary in the beginning and near the end of the story.
I'd argue that the symbiote is just more inclined to take "the easiest way out" of dealing with circumstances, the most efficient method of dealing with the problems they're faced with, and without the brand of morality that humans consider normal, that can be very brutal all things considered.
We can partly see this in smaller instances like where Peter leaps to attack the helicopter without thinking, and gets blown up for it. Even if Peter still didn't know about the rocket defense system, he probably would have still been cautious, but the Symbiote's lean towards the most direct solution helped push him into that reckless action, and of course being "drunk off the power boost" and blinded by the amplified rage probably helped too
Peter was already dealing with aggression and stress,
which left his better judgement already susceptible
but it's the symbiote that capitalized on it and altered Peter's mind, towards actions he would never do,
Like substance abuse
If an initial thought of hurting someone after an argument,
Your immediate better judgement and morale kicks in within seconds,
But substance abuse can capitalize on a single thought or feeling and like that you could do something you'd normally wouldn't do
Atleast that's how I understand it, but I could be wrong
I think the symbiote only told their host's deepest thoughts.
It even somehow knew Miles wanted the symbiote for himself out of jealousy.
Or that Peter wanted to bond again despite having the anti-venom.
The symbiote amplifies emotions. It became obsessed with Peter and thus tried to isolate him so he could have him for himself. Then became venom after Spider-Man separated from him
I think an important point he miss is that a person can have frustration with their partner but still be supported, and just because the frustration is out doesn't mean the supportive side is any less real.
5:11
The Venom lip sync with your line made me laugh so much LOL
That’s what I’ve been saying, but you really can’t put all the blame on Peter, if kraven wasn’t so hungry for death and almost kill Peter the symbiote wouldn’t have lached on to him. People were also saying that if Peter kept having the symbiote on long enough he would have eventually became venom, which is true but let me tell you this. He is a superhuman who still has that control and mental stability over his mind and has his best friends life support and is thinking of keeping it, vs a mentally ill human who has the same disease as his mother and does not have the mental stability to control the symbiote. It makes sense he instantly becomes venom rather then the healthy relationship he had with it at first, I really wish Peter can cure Harry of his disease with anti venom. (I also wish we can get an anti venom agent venom since it had a perfect bond and it was on Harry for way longer then Pete.) sorry for yappin for so long
I felt like Harry had good control over it at first with the Agent Venom phase. That one scene where he was beating the shit outta Kraven he was able to stop himself to focus on his dying friend. The Symbiote has proven they all have mental turmoil so it probably was more so of Harry’s situation that transformed him into true venom the second time. At that point he was a desperate dying man who felt betrayed by Peter who wouldn’t give the suit back. There was no cure in sight either so that probably fueled the hatred inside him compared to in beginning where he was just happy he got his life back. Really wish they got cure for my guy tho.
The problem with the anti venom is technically now anti venom is the son of venom it’s a carnage situation that was boosted with mister negative
Sorry, you got me confused when you said something about Peter thinking about keeping his best friend’s child support? Or did you mean his childhood friend’s support? If so, so is MJ and she’s currently his girlfriend but he still almost killed her. And yes, I say the unconscious Peter almost killed her because this vid said that Harry was the one that killed Kraven and not Venom. I thought it was very evident that it was Venom in full control during that whole sequence because of his sudden realization after killing Kraven, but Harry’s the ine who says “what did I just do?” while at his mom’s grave, so that’s a really good point and interesting perspective. Also Harry isn’t mentally ill.
Lastly, I don’t think Harry instantly became Venom due to lack of control compared to Peter, I would say Harry demonstrated more control over the symbiote but even that isn’t true, they both used the symbiote powers pretty effectively but also struggled against Venom’s influence and ultimately getting him off of themselves. It just seemed like Venom simply accumulated enough power and negativity to reach the final breaking point when he got back onto Harry, the betrayed, jealous dying man.
@@TheNature904i think you have a good argument but on that world i think the most important change on venom was that after bonding with peter the symbiote got stronger (after bonding and merging with part of the rock that connors shows him) and that was a key factor to corrupt harry
Anyway insomniac didn’t bother to explain
I think symbiote was making Peter evil, because Peter was a perfect host, we have been shown that symbiote WANTS Peter specifically, probably because he is not some dying cripple, but a fucking superhero. The reason symbiote made Peter evil, was to turn him against everyone in his life, to prevent itself and Peter being separated, so that Peter was alone and it had him all to itself, now it wasn't the suit that needed Peter, it was Peter who needed the suit. It's similar to how drugs and cults work, they separate you from everyone and everything in your life and only live themselves as the only way out, positive thing in your life.@@TheNature904
The one problem isn’t only just the symbiote wanting more power, it’s also Venom from the start mentally taking over Harry in the bacta tube. Harry says he had nightmares nearly the entire time he was in the tube, and that his mother was telling him of his purpose. Later, we see a line of venom talking to Harry but through his mom’s voice, overall, venom was evil and mentally took over his hosts by making them use that rage they keep in them.
The only thing I’ll say about Scream is that from my perspective, it gave MJ a way to VENT…like, yes she has these thoughts, but she wouldn’t ACT on them, or at least not like this, and I know that if my partner had these problems with me, I wouldn’t just accept the apology flat out, I would try to be better, I may not succeed, but I’d at least try…and from what I remember, Peter DOES try at the end of the game, he restarts the Emily-May Foundation and takes a break from Spider-Man stuff
The only OTHER thing I’ll say, is this quote from Venom on the marvel wiki says almost EVERYTHING you said in this video, but from the goop itself;
“Been to many worlds, but none of them this strange. Understood feelings before, but simple feelings - like colors, bold and bright. Happy. Sad. Angry. Then... met Spider-Man. Feelings got complicated. Learned guilt. Also the first time I felt fear. Felt agony. Learned feeling: Betrayal. Learned first words they called me. Monster. Parasite. Bad.[...] Feels good to be a hero. Did bad things, too. Can't deny. Mac Gargan was bad. Thoughts like poison stingers. It was a thrill to kill. Knew it was bad. Didn't care. Gargan made it easy. Got to punish Gargan for what he did. He was evil and afraid. Lee Price was not afraid. He was a soldier. Hurt and desperate. I trusted him. Talked to him. But Lee was too strong. Didn't want to talk. Didn't want to be a hero. Wanted power. Couldn't stop the bad things he was doing. Lee was bad. Hurt me. Eddie hurts me too, sometimes, but Eddie is different. Eddie never means to.[...] If Eddie is good, why do we disagree? If disagree... am I a monster? Parasite? Bad? Can't be bad. Wasn't bad with Flash. Fought with heroes. Was a hero. Trained another symbiote. Got to learn. Got to teach. Flash called me partner. Was never afraid like Spider-Man. But Flash is gone... and heroes don't hide. Not from anything... especially their mistakes.”
Na MJ for the streets....
Harry was in control because he chose the symbiote but venom chose peter and Connors said it is worse when it choses you
This is why i love how venom gets introduced because of what you said its true peters hidden anger and hatred was practically brought into the light by the symbiote. They even said it themselves. The symbiote brings out your emotions. And peters hate and anger from losing and falling made him into someone that was out of character which is why hes one of my fav heroes. Hes so relatable. And venom is so relatable too he was betrayed and turned to be seen as a monster when it was just going off of what it learned.
I agree with this video 100% the Klyntar were never evil by nature. Their creator Knull was. These creatures are like blank canvases until they bond with a host, good or bad. A good example was in the comics when Deadpool bonded with one, this bond practically caused it to have twisted outlook on life and then latched onto Peter which made things worse. It’s the same principle. Symbiotes bond, adapt and sometimes amplify everything that makes the host who they are. If you have suppressed emotions the symbiotes unleashes it. It doesn’t twist desire it just doubles it. Cletus Kassidy, his symbiote has his blood already merged with its genetic core. Meaning it has all of Kassidy’s twisted and diabolical thoughts and emotions. He was already his “true self” if anything the symbiote is perfectly fused and amplifies Cletus’ emotions and desires.
What makes the symbiote stories so compelling is the fact the symbiote doesn't force you to think thoughts it only builds off what's already there and so the reason the symbiote is so scary in the comics is because the characters understand those were them those actions were their deepest desires and so they have to better themselves as people. It's a shame the newer material just goes the easy way out and blame everything on the suit.
Insomniac has written the story purposefully ambiguous because they know that the symbiote isn't inherently evil but they wanted to make it *seem* that way to the audience. It's been like that since conception, but I think Insomniac did it perfectly because people actually believe the symbiote is evil but they purposefully built the plot in ways that it can be argued against.
Not once did the Symbiote did anything wrong outside of protecting itself and the host while mimicking the host's memories and emotions.
You got a point. I really do like how they portrayed the symbiote in the insomniac game but I just feel it had the potential to show the symbiote in a different way.@@legend213
@@legend213 Yeah, Venom didn't even attempt to kill Connors, the man who outright suggested to destroy him.
Well not every thought is something you _want_ to do. But maybe the symbiote has a hard time understanding that
"You also have to represent the inner evils that we have to suppress every day." Bro, That line made me sub. You have good insight, I respect it.
This is an interesting take. I think it's a bit of both. The people were able to suppress their negative feelings, the symbiote amplified them, like a teenager's hormones
Yeah. I just don’t like how they sometimes act like those negative emotions weren’t them and just blame the symbiote for all their problems.
@@TheNature904That's called having a victim complex. Also known as, blaming others when it's convinient for them and never owning up to their mistakes.
Black suit Peter is just a version of Peter who let's his intrusive thoughts win
This was an EXCEPTIONALLY well written video essay/ hot take. You completely made sense to me and now I might even add this idea to my personal head canon. Amazing job, I will definitely be subscribing 😁
I’m not too educated on symbiotes, but it makes me feel like it moves to the more conflicted people since they are more likely to trust them due to their feelings. Which eventually leads to being taken over or losing control of your emotions.
I wanna say this even more possible. As later if im rembering in comics the whole thing revealed is that the symbiote and host must be balanced and in union and not angry.
"Been to many worlds, but none of them this strange. Understood feelings before, but simple feelings - like colors, bold and bright. Happy. Sad. Angry. Then... met Spider-Man. Feelings got complicated. Learned guilt. Also the first time I felt fear. Felt agony. Learned feeling: Betrayal. Learned first words they called me. Monster. Parasite. Bad.[...] Feels good to be a hero. Did bad things, too. Can't deny. Mac Gargan was bad. Thoughts like poison stingers. It was a thrill to kill. Knew it was bad. Didn't care. Gargan made it easy. Got to punish Gargan for what he did. He was evil and afraid. Lee Price was not afraid. He was a soldier. Hurt and desperate. I trusted him. Talked to him. But Lee was too strong. Didn't want to talk. Didn't want to be a hero. Wanted power. Couldn't stop the bad things he was doing. Lee was bad. Hurt me. Eddie hurts me too, sometimes, but Eddie is different. Eddie never means to.[...] If Eddie is good, why do we disagree? If disagree... am I a monster? Parasite? Bad? Can't be bad. Wasn't bad with Flash. Fought with heroes. Was a hero. Trained another symbiote. Got to learn. Got to teach. Flash called me partner. Was never afraid like Spider-Man. But Flash is gone... and heroes don't hide. Not from anything... especially their mistakes."-Venom Symbiote
just this quote from the original symbiote from the actual Comic version tells you everything you need to know from the way it's worded to even the way it talks about itself from the point that the quote originated from anyway
Tbh I'd say to some degree this has always been the case. The only adaptation I can think of where the Symbiote was explicitly depicted as being purely malicious from the start is the '94 animated series and the Ultimate comics.
In the OG comics it was pretty much just a neutral alien that wanted to help Peter from it's own understanding (or lack thereof) of an understanding of human emotions. It only became spiteful and vengeful as we see it with Venom as a direct result of Peter leaving it to die (with Eddie and the Symbiote basically enabling each other's hatred).
In Spectacular Spider-Man (from what I remember, at least) it moreso just seems to want to make Peter feel good, enabling his negative qualities and rationalizing his bas decisions. Similarly to the comics, it seems to be something that wants to help Peter but lacks the understanding of humanity to do so properly.
Even stuff like Spider-Man 3 establishes Peter's growing ego, sense of entitlement, and decreasing empathy for others as part of his arc way before he even obtains the Symbiote. Like the villains in the previous Raimi movies, the Symbiote didn't make Peter evil, it just amplified the negative traits he already had.
What's odd to me is that all of those adaptations seem to be doing the "Peter's flaws are the real problem" narrative intentionally but with this game it set up the perfect story for that only to go "nah it really is just the Symbiote's fault lol".
Thank you! You literally summarized how I’m feeling about everything. The thing that makes venom so compelling in more recent stories is the fact that the symbiote brings out the worse in Peter but in this game, there’s nothing worse to bring out. Peter is a goody super hero with no flaws so when he gets the symbiote it feels so disingenuous and fake as if the symbiote forces him to act this way instead of Peter acting that way due to the suit. It’s like this game it control him vs other iterations it influences him.
There is one important note that I think you missed at 4:07 during the game harry said how he could hear hi’s mother’s voice telling him to heal the world and then the developers showed us through sound cues that it was venom telling harry to heal the world while he was in the tank before it met Spider-Man so venom either already was going to “heal the world” his own way or his ways changed after he was rejected by Peter I think it’s the first one though
Are we forgeting the fact that the symbiote dint want to leave peter"s body. The symbiote decides his host over its genetics. Like literally it will choose a bodybuilder automatically over a dying guy. Also its alien that literally feeds on dominant emotions. Which the story involves around dark emotions which kraven was the catalyst or start of these emotions to begin with. Like i blame kraven more than anybody else
I see Kravenoff as a breaking point to this already unstable stool. Peter has a lot more motivation than that for him to go dark
@@TheNature904 Exactly because the thing is that I defend that the symbiote for its neutral nature like in the comics and that peter dint help with that like almost every adaptation. Its a weird 50/50 moment that you feel is the situation for the problem which is why I love the symbiote saga a lot.
You have a point with everything you said and it makes me think about Venom and the other symbiotes in the movie and comics about how they interact.
The symbiote amplifies your most negative emotions and insecurities
Bro you just made me want a symbiote more, venoms was already my favorite comic book character now what am I supposed to do 😭🙏🏽
"Venom did nothing wrong" 🤓
"Griffith did nothing wrong"🗿
This video remember me A LOT what Eddie said to Ann after whe became She-Venom:
*Venom, The symbiote, does NOT control you, It only release your repressed feelings, It never makes you to do something that you truly didn't want*
I think you misunderstood the MJ thing. 1. Pete had been treating her like shit with the suit. 2. She doesnt despise Pete she despises Jameson who she has to put up with to try and support not only herself but also pete who she doesnt get much time with because spiderman takes precedence so shes more so angry at spiderman for making her and the man she loves have a harder life we see so many time how Jameson is horrible to work under but shes actively having to write hate pieces because that's what jameson wants. When pete works for jameson it was just pictures of himself he was a photographer not reporter it's a very different ballpark. Anyway remember that venoms first ever contact when it got to earth was someone who would be a villain so you could argue it was tainted from that moment on and Peter's emotions and harry's emotions and their dream corrupted it the most
Two things can be true simultaneously. The key difference here is Peter gets called out for his actions while under the influence. MJ meanwhile hit *exclusively* below the belt throughout that whole boss fight and never got held accountable for any of it.
@@eldredge_ape Because MJ managed to stop his symbiosis and decided to change her perspective, controlling for a brief moment the Scream transformation so she can be free again. MJ had all those feelings but never managed to tell Pete because she knew deep inside it wasn't all his fault, but feelings are complicated to overcome or just disregard.
Even Peter knew that MJ was saying that out of spite just like Peter said a lot of stuff out of spite, both know the other too well and accepts their flaws and talk about it.
Also MJ stuff it's just feelings and can be talked about, Peter almost destroyed the city in his black suit xd of course he's gonna get called out for his actions more thant MJ.
Pete had been treating her like shit even WITHOUT the suit, she's made to feel like the less important one, always be the sidekick even though she's the one that's keeping his life intact and put food on the table
@@hornitako7006but she is the less important one She doesn't have powers and constantly gets in danger and if you were to ask the city who they would rather lose 90% would say MJ as Peter has power and can make an actual difference.
@@Silver-sr4ocBoth Ganke and MJ are very important sources of info and support for the Spider-Men. To say that MJ isnt important because she doesnt have powers is insane because without her help in the first game, whether you liked the MJ missions or not, Pete wouldnt know anything about Devil’s Breath or how to stop it. In this game, she’s offering to pay his mortgage and put up with his barely being around, and still helps to provide key info
Also, keep in mind the only reason Venom exists in his monstrous form the way that he does is because the Symbiote wanted to bond with Peter and have a relationship with him, but Peter said “Nah, I’m good.” The Symbiote is a living being with thoughts and feelings. It just got it’s poor heart broken by Peter and he practically forced it find somebody else or die. Remember Symbiote’s can’t survive without a host. Peter seems to be the real monster here when you look at it like that.
Bro I felt personally attacked by scream 😂😂
Best believe YOU ARE NOT ALONE
The symbiote was evil. Are y'all forgetting that Conners wiped its memories? It craved power as soon as it saw Peter. When the symbiote touched the stone it basically remembered it's full mission. Harry mentions that he started EmilyMay because he heard his mom talking to him to continue her dream.
That was venom pretending to be his mom talking to him. It was manipulating Harry the entire time.
Exactly. It has the ability to manipulate memories, so when it was using Peters sleeping body and attacking MJ, it had to know who she was and what she meant to Peter.
To me the OG symbiote (not scream) is very defensive and maybe has a god complex. It only gets angry when it, Peter, Harry, or Miles are threatened. When Peter sees MJs negative article about him he’s only worried but shortly after Harry tells him he needs the suit back he gets angry. When he arrives home after lizard wrangling he’s calm until hunters sneak up on him while he’s sleeping. The suit is the thing that can save Harry’s life and make Peter the best SM he can be. It really does see itself as the solution and thinks the endgame is right. Also if Peter has a symbiote why doesn’t he try to heal Harry himself?
He did try to heal harry the symbiote wouldn't bond with harry, I assume this is due to Peter just being a better stronger host. Now that it is an anti-venom suit Peter has tho I don't see why he couldn't give that to harry considering it should listen to him no?
@@Seagull425 I meant anti venom at the end of the story when Harry is left dying.
@@Jlopezocasio I think it's because anti-venom is basically apart of peter since Li basically gave his power during peter's mind.
@@gerndae yeah that’s why he has full control. He can also leave enemies stuck to surfaces with it so why can’t he leave some with Harry.
@@Jlopezocasio Maybe the anti-venom can't leave him? I also think because he couldn't give the symbiote back when he got it means he also didn't know how to do it with anti-venom and he had no time to try?
I fall kinda somewhere in the middle of all this. I agree on a lot of the points. However, to me, it seemed that after peter first came into contact with the meteorite during his meeting with Connors. The symbiote started to become more sentient? Like before it seemed to just boost whatever desires and emotions peter was feeling at the time, but the voices and stuff really started to come out after. If I remember correctly, Harry didn't talk about any hivemind before peter got the suit. But it seemed like when he got the suit back, it was more sentient, and twisted Harrys desire to align with it's own desire to create a new symbiote world/reproduce its kind.
Basicly I'm saying, I think the symbiote wasn't linked to the hivemind until after it touched the meteorite when peter came into contact with it.
I was always under the impression in this game that everything thr symbiote makes them say is deep rooted in truth.
Deep down, somewhere, maybe even unconsciously, what the symbiote brings out is their true feelings.
I thought that peter and mj were going to realize that those things that were said we're their true thoughts deep down, and needed to address after the invasion. But mj seems to, awkwardly dismiss it as "not being them"?, i find that kind of odd.
it's not that far off from reality, using the alcohol metaphor, people under the influence will let out their deepest feelings and act in ways that come from their primal instincts/emotions. I've seen it for myself, but afterward, they'll blame the alcohol despite it clearly not being the only reason. That's the role Venom plays in this game and reveals a dark truth about human nature.
@@Robust-d7u Yeah... which means in DLC or the next game, Peter and MJ will have to confront all of their inner Demons
@@Robust-d7u The problem is logically that isn't you, you are not just your primal instincts, you are also your reason.
@@AlphaNinjaFTW1 you’re right, primal instincts is not all that makes someone who they are, but it does reveal something things about them that influences who they are
This is correct, When he's wearing the symbiote, The symbiote shows the negative side of Peter, the side Peter doesn't wanna show. The symbiote just brings out the other side of Peter, And Peter always had a negative side, he just holds it in and doesn't show it...
Quick reminder that in the comics, venom used to do Spider-Man stuff while Peter was sleeping, even facing his fear of fire to save people and only stopped when he realized that it was hurting Peter. Then Peter immediately got rid of him which pissed venom off and made him evil.
Not so much evil more like an ex that wants to get back together and potentially work things out
To be fair to MJ when she said “I write words for a man I despise” she was talking bout JJJ
Good vid.
The symbiote is supposed to amplify and bolster your inner feelings and what you already are deep down!
And thats exactly what happened in the game with MJ and Pete
The title is DEFINITELY misleading, but your points are valid
Fun fact, Carnage just became an evil symbiont because he learned to be evil with Cletus and the same thing with Peter and Venom on this game
I always loved the comparison of the symbiote and how it adapts to Peter to alcohol and alcoholism.
Alcohol doesn’t make you belligerent or aggressive, it dulls your logical faculties and releases inhibitions. You may not always treat people the way you want to, but you will treat them the way you feel the should be treated in the moment… for better or for worse, based on your own temperament and mental state.
The symbiote is truly no different. The power high makes you feel good, stronger, safer, and you feel less inhibited to speak your mind and ignore the consequences of your words or actions. And in time, the Symbiote becomes a direct reflection and associate of that more “honest and true” version of yourself.
Let it be known that in the comics, the Symbiote was out there saving people’s lives and protecting the city safely in Peter’s sleep for awhile… because it was learning positive traits and enhancing them at first. It’s a fantastic allegory for the responsibility we have to put on our own actions and how treating the reason we fall into addiction is just as important as analyzing the addiction itself.
To be fair to MJ when she said "for a man I despise" she was talking about Jameson not Peter
I think that was clear, but it sounds out of line when you remember Peter had been the focal point of J Jonah Jamesons hate while working for him for a good portion of his life.
@@GreaterGrievobeast55I don't know, I mean it was clearly taking a toll on her but she didn't want to give Peter that baggage, of course it's going to be out of pocket because the Scream symbiote let out her deeper thoughts, though at the same time any words MJ fought back against was probably the symbiote interpreting those thoughts in the wrong way.
Like sure she had her frustrations with Peter, but she still needed him despite Scream interpreting her deeper frustrations as not needing him
I found this reading very fascinating. The Symbiote was still dangerous before Peter but bonding with him and absorbing all of his trauma and repressed rage is what fueled it to become Venom with Harry. I think what influenced its world conquering was discovering the meteorite that it likely never would’ve found without Peter and it co-opted Harry’s “Heal the world” mission to manipulate him. I think Peter and the Symbiote is analogous to a toxic relationship. They were a terrible match for each other and brought out all the latent badness within. Venom is the direct result of Spider-Man succumbing to his inner turmoil and hurting the people around him by giving Harry a REASON to hate.
Free my boi venom he didnt do nun
Now I feel like if Peter was in a better place mentally while bonded with the Symbiote he could've kept it without any problems and I do firmly believe it was never evil but just simply going along with whatever it's hosts thinking or feeling
Hmmmm you got a point there, in the Spider-Man 3 movie Dr. Connors did say it "amplifies characteristics of its host" the symbiote tries to bond with all of you and brings out your true self
They always try and find ways to give pete trauma and stress to take him out the story so miles and everyone else can shine
Depending on how true to the source material this game is (it does take liberties, after all), there is a narrative that says the symbiotes are heroic by nature, or seek heroism. However, if they bond with an imperfect being, it corrupts them into the horrors we're familiar with (see Agents of the Cosmos). Both the symbiote and host are affected, so using MJ's possession by Scream as an example, the symbiote does exasperate negative emotions, feed on them, but it doesn't create them out of nowhere. I think, given enough time, even Harry would've corrupted Venom, since his hatred of his own weakness and fear of death was strong enough to compel him to make the Emily-May Foundation in the first place. It just would've taken significantly longer compared to Peter, as we saw.
Granted, symbiotes in the comics are supposed to be super vulnerable to fire, but Venom isn't fazed by it in this game. So, who knows
To be fair despite everyone being themselves and showing their worst self the symbiote does in fact significantly amplify negative emotions. Anger, grief, sadism ect.
There's a reason I almost started to tear up the scream boss fight, it's because that MJ saying all of those things not the symbiote. Also a very good observation that the evil carried on from Peter.
The symbiote wasnt telling her to say that the symbiote was just telling spider-man what she really thinks
My parents have had worse arguments without symbiote influence tbh, but they ultimately love eachother. Sometimes you just need to get it out of your system. Also if merely having dark thoughts is enough for Venom to be triggered, it could happen to anyone eventually.
(Also the inclusion of Anti-Venom already irked me, as it undermines the themes to give Peter that power with no downsides, but I didn’t realise it could theoretically cure Harry too!)
"the voices are gone, but the power is still there"
I like to think that the symbiote doesn't even make you more aggressive it just removes your filter and makes you the most "pure" version of yourself
Apologies for how long this comment is.
3:23, Taking a look at Venom throughout the story, it’s implied that it took interest in Peter early on when it grabbed him. That it had already noticed him to be a more suitable host, a host with power unlike the other creatures around him, attributes that would make it stronger and better protected (as symbiotes bond to hosts for their own survival, at times, at the hosts expense) far more than it would be in its then-current host, Harry, who was suffering from a debilitating genetic disease that it’s ability to heal seemingly could not remove.
Upon this potentially superior host coming close to death, Venom makes the choice to abandon Harry to save him (it can be argued this was motivated instead or also by Harry’s grief over seemingly being about to lose his best friend but since symbiotes can be just as influenced by their host’s minds as they influence the minds of their hosts) and is thus exposed to Peter’s buried negative emotions, emotions he normally contains and controls with his focus on helping other people, his compassion and his sense of humility. Venom continues to amplify Peter’s negative emotions until this compassion and humility becomes progressively eroded until Peter is left frustrated, impatient and increasingly cruel, motivated by his insecurity over his losses and perceived failures and a desire to make up for them through a more aggressive approach (one the symbiote would benefit from as it would essentially be conditioning Peter into an apex predator, an individual without anyone that could oppose them or harm them).
By the time Venom touches the meteorite, it becomes strong enough to fully control Peter’s body as he sleeps and then when it is forced to rejoin Harry after Peter abandons it, it begins to reveal it has more of its own will (or rather being operated by a larger will in the form of either the Klyntar Hivemind or Knull himself judging by the spiral symbols on the meteorite and the symbiote drones) and uses Harry to carry out an invasion plan using the meteorite, exploiting and perverting his desire to benefit the world to suit its plan (6:08, Harry, under Venom’s influence, even calls this new state he’s achieved the “real” him, as is it his deepest insecurities that are brought to the surface for Venom to use to manipulate him, which may have also been helped by the pills Harry was taking and seeming abusing in a reference to his addiction storyline in the comics). Scream similarly is shown to use M.J’s hidden resentment towards Peter, frustration at the apparent insignificance of her own job working for an obnoxious oaf like Jameson and the subsequent feelings of inadequacy of being a normal person whose partner is a superhero to keep her control her, keep her wanting to stay bonded to it, like an addict’s dependency on their vice of choice. 5:32, And of course Peter is forgiving because he’s been infected by a symbiote himself, knows that they amplify negativity and is a normally patient and compassionate person; this whole fight is just a superheroic version of a domestic dispute, an argument a couple could have prevented if they’d gotten the chance to just talk when the problems leading up to it were smaller and more manageable, though airing out their baggage does give her the courage to confront her issues, meaning there is indeed something positive to say about the experience.
But with Mile’s intervention, Peter is reminded of the person he was, the person who sacrificed much of his happiness, peace of mind and personal safety so that people he would never know wouldn’t have to suffer the kind of loss he did. More importantly, he’s reminded of the compassion and care for others that allowed him to bare what he suffered through. He may have not been strong enough to have recognized and fought Venom’s influence himself, but he gained the tools through the experience to help M.J. and to a lesser extent, Harry, over their “demons” which the symbiotes were using to control them and remind them of who they were as well.
6:56, It is true that Peter (and the other two) needed external help to be reminded of this and that Venom’s influence was strong enough to subvert his will for a time. Peter, Miles and Li know that there are parts of even good people that are unsavory and in the right situation, they can be made to lose control of that side (Li even uncovers a part of Peter’s psyche that considers killing his villains even though he feels like he should never kill). But both this game and its predecessors tend to explore the duality in people that pushes them towards embracing either side of themselves. One character that does so particularly well is Yuri, who went from a police captain to a murderous vigilante after going made with rage and insecurity after failing to protect her men from criminals. On one hand, she’s cruel, brutal and fully willing to fight her allies if she feels they obstruct her from punishing those she deems deserving, but on the other hand, even she has a limit to how ruthless she is willing to be in order to get her target, as he lets Cletus Cassidy (an irredeemable, unrepentant, death-worshipping cult leader armed with a symbiote container) escape so she could save Spiderman from burning alive because she would rather feel guilt over those she killed rather than those she couldn’t save, and losing Spiderman would doom people he could’ve otherwise been able to protect. Despite her losing control of her worst aspects, showing she lacks the kind of will Peter does to not let himself become like that without external influence eroding that will, she is still more than just her anger and hate towards criminals, more than her worst self. It’s a solid theme for a superhero story to show both the virtues and flaws of both villains and heroes in equal measure, as it makes the characters more relatable, more like people.
Peter got the audacity to say the symbiote doesn’t care bout anything but itself I’m like MF IT SAVED YO LIFE HUH??
THE SYMBIOTE IS GETTING UNDESERVED SLANDER.
It saw a change for a better body and mask it as saving him. That’s probably what it was.
@@moistfist1054 then why did it tuck him to sleep? Why did it hate Miles?
@@Cosmicmoralestuck him in cause hes taking care of the host body😂
@@momsspaghetti4504 he's superhuman! I think Peter would've survived a night of being slightly less comfy.
I get what you’re saying because when Harry had the symbiote, it didn’t change him, but for Peter, he was holding on to a lot anger and regret which affected the venom
I’m over here thinking it’s because it wasn’t exposed to loud noise yet when the WHOLE time that’s just who they really were! And in the beginning that’s just who Harry really was!! So that’s all the venom knew!!
The only thing Venom is responsible for is supporting the inner desires of the wrong people!
Bro made me feel bad for a symbiote 😭
I think that the symbiote didn’t expose who Pete is but the small and dark feelings that like him we all have, we know they are wrong and we know that’s not what we want but their still their, I think that the fact that he realized what it was doing to him shows how good of a person he is
Bros the real life version of jjj
I'm mean yeah, in the comics the symbiote was a an alien suit at first. Which peter took off after he found out it was using him when he was unconscious tp fight crime. We in this case venom was just trying to help peter or please him. After Peter took him off then did the character of venom come out, primarily with vengeance towards peter. Cause he did everything to help and please Peter and Pete just freaked out and took it off
That *"AND you got no ass?!"* was so personal 😭
that came from his heart
I think it’s more so the symbiote heavily enhances negative emotions the good and the bad harry sounded genuinely great when he had it in the first half he calmed down a good bit when he lost it by the time Peter refused to give him the suit he was so fucking angry and once he got it back he killed a man it enhanced his emotions most likely to actually be able to better understand emotions
I thought about this too.
The symbiote was completely alright when Harry controlled it but the second it got on Peter it started corrupting him
I've always loved the idea that the symbiote;s true love is Peter, I felt that in this game when it kept reaching out to peter when it was bonded to harry was the initial pull it had for him, it seeks for the best host and it saw that in peter and when it finally got to him and was then ripped away it was hurt, and just wanted to be back with him, the whole "we want to work with you on this peter" was definitely feelings of harry and the symbiote combined feelings and we see that when venom is fighting miles when he rants about how miles took peter away from him, that wasn't harry talking that was the symbiote.
this makes me question if i have the symbiote
Well venom basically just lets those repressed emotions and thoughts out depending on the user,so this totally makes sense just like when tobey got it it was him but it was the dark nerd version of him were he let his emotions take over
The gerudo valley music had me smiling
Not true. Venom was being drugged by Harry through the pills he got from Connors. Venom is primarily a Soldier on a Mission from his people
Bro is the irl JJJ
5:09 will forever play in my mind lol 😂
Bro was cooking with this one
You just said that the reason Venom became evil is because of Peter and how he feels deep down and then when you talk about MJ say oh no that must be how she really feels.
Maybe in some instances she has those feelings deep down but the fight is able to help her gain the courage to change certain things she was too afraid to change, like quitting the Bugle and Moving into Peter's house etc... so yeah she may have had those feelings deep down but it was the Symbiote who dragged them to the surface.
Also remember her Symbiote is very different from the one Peter had on when he was going dark, instead of it trying to help her but she still be in control it simply controlled/corrupted her and had her darkest thoughts and impulses rise to the surface.