Exactly. A problem easily remedied to have had the parade of real buses on an adjacent street just out of sight from the bank disaster, so the other bus drivers would let it in like it just got lost or something.
He was in on it. The sixth member who was instructed to leave a gap and to kill themself after they’re not needed anymore. Pure genius that joker fellow.
How hard can it be to find a clueless, loyal, homicidal, weapons-proficient, schizophrenic safecracking wizard with zip line experience who won't keep an eye on the guy behind him?
This is a great example of a well-made sequence disguising a poor concept. The first time I watched it the only thing that really stood out was the idea that the robbers would be both happy to murder each other AND unaware that they're all equally expendable.
Despot, I'd like to personally thank you for informing me about the intricacies of what goes into a bank robbery. I've been planning one for a while, and your analysis allowed me to see a number of flaws that were still very much present in my plans, holes that I've since plugged to make it utterly waterproof. I'll be a rich man thanks to you!
@@cranberryrosebud well since he made this comment on google his account is now flagged and his IP is probably sent to the fbi by now. I hope hes not sitting in prison right now
19:04 - you forgot: "The school bus behind the getaway bus has a phone and calls the police, identifying the license plate of the bus he JUST saw drive out of the bank in front of him, covered in debris"
@@pyropulseIXXI ...Except that this would only make it impossible to track down the origin of the bus. The police would still have the license plates present on the bus at the time of the robbery, and any officer on patrol would be able to compare them with any passing bus.
This scene wasn't the only nonsense. 'The Dark Knight' is entertaining, but the Joker has so much Plot Power that he may as well be magic. A couple minute's thought about almost every major plan of his shows it is impossible to do without having read the script.
The helicopter scene was always something that bothered me. How the fuck did the joker know not only that the police would send a helicopter flying at a low enough height to set up a trap, but also where to set up said trap?
@@goukeban6197 Exactly! And speaking of 'knowing ahead of time' His Demolition of the Hospital is Head-Smashingly retarded. It can take up to MONTHS of highly-trained Engineers to set up a demolition job. Even if we say he doesn't care about 'being neat' (Which he certainly doesn't) it would still take weeks to place the charges well enough so that the building goes down, smoothly or not! And... wait a sec... where did he get the MONEY for all this Hardware? I thought he burned it all. :-/ HE may not care about money, but I can guarantee you his flunkies and the people he does business with certainly do. Lastly, for those random readers stumbling across this- 'The Dark Knight' is a very good movie. Excellent performances, great character work, production values are through the roof... The fact is, with a lesser film, these flaws would render it unwatchable, but Nolan is a master and the Good definitely outweighs the bad.
@@torikazuki8701 And that was right after pulling off an insane car chase, kidnapping two high-profile individuals AND breaking from the police station!
@@torikazuki8701For the last complaint he almost certainly took the other half of the thugs money. But there are other questions. How did he rig the boats and warehouses in such a short time? How did no one notice him smuggling explosives on board the boats? How did he play dead so effectively that no one questioned it? And so on and so forth.
@@fictiontheorizer4253 Spot On! But, like I said awhile ago, it is due to the excellent performances, high-quality production and Nolan's Masterful Direction that we *Buy* any of that nonsense. At least while watching it. ^_~
Something that bugs me is the part later with Joker taunting the guy until he goes for him. People dealing with psychopaths are specifically trained and taught to ignore them. Like, the thing about psychopaths at the level where they need to be locked away is that they're extremely predictable, to the point where if you know how to handle them they're basically harmless. So, the police officer assigned to watch Joker would have been fully aware of everything he would say and prepared to ignore him. Like, someone would have said "Hey man, just si you know, he's a psychopath. He's definitely gonna bring up the dead cops to get to you. Are you prepared for that?" For reference, I knew a guy who was a security guard in a hospital who had to watch a psychopath. The guy killed his wife and baby, so his shift would be hours of the guy saying "I killed a baby? Do you want to hear me describe her death to you? PAY ATTENTION TO ME!!" He said that even just doing one shift made him pretty numb to the crap psychopaths say.
Very comprehensive list. One thing that always screamed out to me was how obviously the bus driver behind the bus when it drives OUT of the bank, would call the police and know the numberplate etc. We're supposed to believe a school bus driver will watch a bus drive out of a building, dust and debris falling off of it, and think nothing more about it? Sure Nolan, sure.
It is a movie, you absolute oaf. "Sure, Nolan, sure." lmao, what are you even doing? It isn't hard to switch out plates, and you don't even see what happens after. Also, did you question why a batman even exists? The entire notion is very implausible. We're supposed to believe a billionaire would become a highly trained ninja super hero? Sure Nolan, sure
School busses have big black numbers on them though. Also, the conceit of supers existing is supposed to be the major suspension of disbelief in this genre. If we pile on more suspension because non super elements are straining against what think should be reality (that this Gotham is just Chicago) then the movies foundation falls apart. Just because your movie has magic space wizards doesn't mean the plot has to be a mess.
Holy crap, an idea just popped in my head; wouldn't it have been cool had all these henchmen in fact been depicted as previous criminal masterminds, each with great gifts, and he convinced them all to work together on a job that was really designed to eliminate them, not actually get the money. And they were each one at a time learning this when it's too late, and then the cruel irony be that he ends up actually getting the money too, through luck, and that's how it ends, him laughing at getting such a bonus.
That actually is such a stereotypical Joker moment. He didn't care about the money one bit but walks away with it just out of sheer dumb luck? I can hear Mark Hamill laughing up a storm now
@@kingsadvisor18 You're right, I guess it's an established part of his character to not really want the things he steals to have for himself as much as just take them away from people who want them. But this is a story angle (duping his accomplices in the act) that would have been cool if they thought of it, and it would have made sense that he would want to kill the small fish in the act of conspiring with him all in one big elaborate heist. He could have even mocked them just before killing them with criticisms like the ones here in this review, "you all are so stupid to fall for this" sort of thing.
The one that makes me scratch my head is that the bus drives out of the bank into a perfectly sized gap in a line of buses. How? We're all the buses working for joker? If so he'd have a lot more accomplices to kill
Excellent analysis but you forgot the first mistake that would’ve red flagged the operation from the start: the zip liners busting out a high story window and showering the sidewalk below with glass. This surely would’ve been noticed and alarmed people before the car even arrives.
This is way the Dark Knight never clicked with me. It tries to look super realistic and down to earth, but the plot needs the Joker to basically be able to see the future. Something you wouldn't see in most far less "realistic" versions of the character. I like more stylied takes on Batman more for this reason. More room for suspension of disbelief. If you want see a movie that does a good job showing the pitfalls of trying to do the perfect crime? The Killing by Stanley Kubrick. It's one of the best written movies of all time.
The more problematic thing for me is how the Joker gets anyone to work for him when it gets out that he always intended to kill all the people involved in his bank heist and then burns most of the money to boot.
@@pyropulseIXXI So? The point is, that once it got known, why would anyone else - especially greedy criminal types - take a chance on him not repeating it?
@@Scotty-P well they specifically state in the film that joker hires paranoid schizophrenics and the such. So mentally ill people who don't understand or care anyway...
@@overlean1 How are; or so many, "mentally ill" "paranoid schizophrenics" are answering job notices?! This guys in the first job didn't seem like so either.
@@Scotty-P Word gets around? It was a single bank heist, and he wasn't running a huge operation; it isn't hard to hire people when you have access to such 'funds,' and there is no pattern of him doing this before, so him hiring people shortly after wouldn't be an issue; people wouldn't even know Joker was behind this so soon And the Joker didn't burn money until the end, after the culmination of his plans, so how the f*ck would 'word getting around' be an issue for him? The movie ends soon after that
"The Joker's heist has the appearance of being genius because it is intricate and complex and has many twists and turns" Well isn't that just a great description of Nolan's filmography
To a small bit of my shame, I used to use and sell heroin and other narcotics about 10 years ago. I also was involved in some intense situations. Breaking and entering into certain places for instance. I have experienced what it feels like to be in these situations and let me tell you something about them: The amount of adrenaline that hits you is literally staggering. I mean it physically alters the way you move, the way you think, there is a marked difference in how you experience time, and much more. When it comes to situations like this, unless you and your entire team are absolutely hardened pros who have nothing to lose and don’t fear death/punishment, mistakes WILL be made. So, yes….Joker’s plan is a complete Hollywood farce (still entertaining) because even if he is a genius, his plan relies on unpredictable individuals who he has no clue on whether or not they will fulfill their responsibilities in the exact way he wants them to.
This is a really interesting comment. I think The Place Beyond the Pines depicts some of what you are describing (obviously I wouldn't know). Glad that you don't sell heroin anymore!
I love the way you describe the adrenaline bit. There’s an adrenaline rush, and then there’s fight or flight, and they’re objectively different experiences. I’ve been in some very intense situations where my freedom and life were threatened and when it’s crunch time, it’s like you’re in the most vivid goddamn dream you’ve ever had. There is no pain.
@@GarrettLoganGriffin Your response made me read my comment again and I realized that I should mention something else. I had a friend tell me that your body gets used to the adrenaline. He was stealing cars every day and running from the cops regularly….he told me that his body got used to the adrenaline. But he also was using meth so I’m not sure how accurate his facts are. I’m sure very experienced people can adapt to the adrenaline or they are used to it. I never got used to it….it always hit me like a freight train.
@@johnselden9257 Same. I’m sure just like any drug, your body can build a tolerance for it if it happens so regularly. But yeah, I guess I didn’t get into enough shit🤣 Aaaaaalways hit me like a ton of bricks, too, bro.
Always entertaining Despot.. I think the biggest problem with the jokers plan is guaranteeing the bloke you are supposed to kill via bus through the wall is going to be stood exactly where he needs to be when it turns up. I can't get a bus when I stand at a stop! 🤣
You highlighted something that has always bothered me with Nolan's films. Yes, they're slick, cool and entertaining, absolutely. However, they are not gritty, grounded or realistic in any way. They are pure fantasy. There's nothing wrong with fantasy, just don't try to convince me that your Super Soaker is a TEC-9.
This was a thorough analysis, and I'm glad you included the clip of the expert explaining what requirements are necessary for success. I have not seen this movie, but of course the robbery plan is completely and ridiculously over the top. The instant a new boss who has hired me for contract work tells me when the job is done, I should kill a particular colleague, whom I don't know yet, I would immediately assume that the boss has told somebody else to kill me. That's kind of a dealbreaker for me. Your points about installing the zip line, and then actually using the zip line, are well taken. How can the Joker be certain that his employees will be able to carry out the plan under pressure? It may sound doable, and the crew may be eager, but when in the real world, any number of variables can pop up. Expecting everybody to stay cool, calm and collected and to carry on executing the plan as previously discussed is taking a big chance. Ask anybody who has never acted before how they felt going up on stage in front of an audience and saying the lines just like in rehearsal. Ask a police recruit, who completed all mandatory training of the most dangerous situations in a training environment, how to confront the real thing on his first day on the job. In both cases, it can happen that the person is overwhelmed, feels the fight, flight or freeze response, and is unable to do what they did in training or rehearsal. Since the Joker doesn't know these people, how can he rely on them to carry out the plan? Just wondering: several times you mentioned one of the variables might be "an off-duty cop who wants to be a hero" or "a man who wants to assert his masculinity after decades of sitting at a desk job". It sounded like you were sneering at them but I may have misunderstood that. I would think anybody who is trying to intervene is voluntarily putting themselves in a life and death situation in order to stop a violent crime in progress, and the potential the same criminals have for further violence after they leave the bank. The other option would be for the would-be intervener to decide he'd rather not risk his life and hide behind furniture instead while calling 911. Which is probably also a valid choice. Thanks for the video!
I wasn't sneering at anyone, but I wouldn't encourage anyone to risk their life to save a bank's insurance company from a loss. If it was your house, the bank would happily wash the money stolen from it. Interesting comment about fight or flight, I was just thinking that the zipliners would take one look out that window, think 'Yea, fuck that.' and take off, end of heist.
@@DespotofAntrim no, you are quite right! Risking one’s life to help the bank not to lose money is not the best idea. Do you watch the channel “pitch meetings?” The screenwriter guy will say he wants a particular scene to unfold a certain way. The producer guy will say, but that’s extremely dangerous and there’s no way that could succeed. And screenwriter guy will say but it will look cool and exciting in the trailer so people will come and spend money to watch the movie. So producer guy will say great, let’s do it! This is probably a very accurate representation of what goes on in Hollywood. I always enjoy your videos very much. Thank you!
Id sneer 2. Why risk innocent life over insured and tainted money? By someobe escalating the situation. Just observe the situation until it's over and try and find the culprits later?
Exactly. This very thought was blaring in my head when watching that very Joker bank heist. It wasn't an exhibition in criminal genius but a hailstorm in lucking out. And it's amazingly effective comparison between those two different heists. A moment of devil's advocacy, I think comic book movie villains fare better in film to keep the spirit of comicbook universe absurdity. Make things TOO realistic and it strangely is less entertaining, at least how I see it. I still think the idea that Joker wanted to not share the gains and not risk having any henchmen that can rat him out could have just simply happen in a simple way AFTER the job is done, not DURING it. A "post robbery shocker," blowing up the bus full of them celebrating afterwards, etc. It also would make Joker look smarter, look more appealing to future henchmen to work with him because nobody knows he killed any before. 4:04 "You can maximize your luck with preparation and experience." Well, more specifically, you can minimized your need for luck or susceptibility to bad luck with them.
I think I kind of always knew that the plan itself was stupid but the scene never actually bothered me because I never saw it as "establishing the Joker's strategic genius." For the Joker, I think this scene establishes several things which your video inadvertently points out. 1) The Joker knows people. You said several times "No one would act like this" but this is Gotham City. People absolutely would act like this in a city presented as corrupt as Gotham. Especially considering how slim pickings the presence of the Batman would make a criminal life these days. 2) The Joker is always in control. We simply don't know what kind of back up plans the Joker had for each element of the heist. He chose his crew precisely--your video points out how exact Joker would have to be to do that. He counted on interference from the mob enforcer in the bank. He counted on or simply didn't care about each of the potential pitfalls to his plan. 3) The Joker just doesn't care. I never saw the heist as needing to get away with the money at all. This scene is intended to establish Joker's boldness--he just does not care at all about the mob, the police or the Batman. He sees himself as above them all. And this bank heist is actually just a means to get the mob's attention--something he accomplishes whether he gets the money or not. As Joker says later in the movie: "It's not about money. It's about sending a message." THAT is the point of the bank heist. Sending the message that everything burns: money, criminal underworlds, law and order, honor among thieves... EVERYTHING burns. The Joker is FAR more pleased with himself that he convinced 3 people to kill someone than any amount of money he got. For the movie, this also establishes a number of important plot points: 1) Harkening back to the first point about the Joker, this is the heart of the philosophical conflict of the movie--what are people willing to do to each other. Just as the Joker, being the psychopath that he is, can find people willing to do unspeakable things to each other, Gotham City PRODUCES people willing to do unspeakable things to each other. That's the contrast with the Batman. Batman is the symbol of hope against the despair of Gotham; the Joker is the symbol of the depravity of Gotham. 2) This also portrays the weakened position of the mob. Four experienced criminals are willing to cross the mob because Batman has shown Gotham that they are absolutely not invincible. The safe cracker even comments that a mob bank is the kind of bank that wires its safe doors with booby traps but doesn't seem to care. It might still be a bit "crazy" to openly defy the mob like this but the mob are nowhere near the threat that they once were. This is the power vacuum that the Joker is filling. This is the unintended consequences of Batman's crusade--anytime you tear down existing structures for good or ill there is always the possibility that something worse will rise in its stead. This is not to comment on the moral value of what Batman--or anyone else--maybe trying to accomplish. It is simply a reality that even the best-intentioned people must be aware of. 3) And finally we see the still hollowed out morality of Gotham. The Joker knows there aren't going to be any cops near this bank. It's a MOB bank. He also knows that no one in Gotham has the moral courage to stand up to three armed men entering a bank nor will they have the moral courage to report it. That's the reason Gotham is the way it is in the first place. As Rachel says in Batman Begins: "Falcone floods our streets with crime and drugs, preying on the desperate... We all know where to find him. But as long as he keeps the bad people rich and the good people scared, no one will touch him. The good people like your parents who'll stand against injustice. They're gone. What chance does Gotham have when the good people do nothing?" Watching the Joker and two more armed men in masks walk into a bank in broad daylight an NO ONE even seems to care is reminding the audience exactly what kind of city this is. Don't fool yourselves: Gotham is a hellhole. As far as realistic bank heists go... yeah... this isn't the tightest operation by a long shot. But I also never really saw it that way. I always saw this scene as establishing the Joker's character (which is NOT a tactical genius by his own admission) and establishing the rules of this universe. In the real world, this bank heist would probably fail. But in Gotham City... the fact that it succeeds shows you exactly what kind of world you're dealing with and the almost supernatural powers of perception possessed by the Joker.
Very good points, I can definitely see the thematic elements and character / world building in this scene. Like I said, it's a great scene, but a significant portion of the audience really do take seriously as a realistic heist.
@@DespotofAntrim Oh, I don't doubt that. And your video is very well-made and thoughtful. It just never really occurred to me to take the heist itself seriously. But I can see how a lot of people would. And as you say, they really shouldn't.
In my opinion, the sole good point you made to the defense of this robbery is that the Joker is indeed insane and uncaring. It is in fact the only thing that can explain a plan this bad. The rest remains accurate on Despot's arguments, and the Joker not caring doesn't explain how the hell he actually pulled it off.
@@TheStraightestWhitest Maybe. But, again, I'm not actually defending the plan itself. Despot's arguments are sound--in the real world. But the point of the sequence isn't a how-to on real world robbery practices. There is no logical reason anyone would attempt a robbery this complex with anything less than an air tight crew you've been working with for 20 years. The *only* reasons that this works is because of the ones I've stated--who the Joker is and who Gotham City is. It is a mistake on the part of the viewer to take this scene and conclude that the Joker is brilliant. His plan sucks. What we are meant to take away is how insane he is and how morally bankrupt Gotham is. Any other conclusion misses the point entirely
I always thought this was a silly scene. Especially the bus seemlessly driving down the steps and blending into the other buses. What was the bus driver directly behind the Joker's bus thinking when they saw this?
You know it’s ironic that Christopher Nolan states that the inspiration for the bank heists was from the several heists that occurred in the movie Heat (1995). Except for those who’ve actually seen Heat, you would know that the reason why that movie’s heists work is because there was way better planning, but still more casualties when things would backfire on McCauley and his crew.
This reminds me another scene in The Dark Knight Rises where villans hijacked an aeroplane. It looks spectacular but when you think about it, is it even feasible? The same director so that is his style, I guess...
Like the direction of Zack Snyder, the direction of Chrishopher Nolan is the perfect embodiment of the principle of "style over substance". Their movies look gorgeous and have a great flow, but the cracks start to show the moment you start looking for plotholes.
You know, the point about vault having a second gate reminds me - in Payday 2, a game that has a lot to be desired in terms of... Everything (janky AI, glitches up it's bum, list goes on), one of the first heists you'd likely do in it is Harvest and Trustee branch. The heist can be done both in stealth and loud, depending on whether or not guards and civilians will be disposed of in quickly enough. Now, despite gang consisting of 20+ people, the jobs are handed and controlled by their mastermind, Bain, who never shows up his face (aside from one occassion, but getting to the context behind it would take too long, plus it's not really that relevant to the point), is hiding in a remote location, and uses bunch of IT wizardry to hide his traces, so realistically, he's the one that has the least risk involved, but like you said, it's not 0% (which does bite him in the ass eventually). The heist itself is carried out by a team of 4 (allowing for a 4 player co-op). Now, in game, nobody is going to snitch, but if you really want to add the odds, you can do so. Funnily enough, the odds of someone not being experienced at their task can be applied at the leisure. Equipment and skills might also vary, so we can add that (someone might not bring silenced weapon, or someone might not have faster lockpicking, etc). And once we're past the human element, we can move onto what really sets Payday apart - RNG. Each heist in the game has a set of variables that can play out during the heist - be it small things, like additional loot in deposit boxes, but it can be also major, like placement of key items, vault, or security room. On aforementioned Harvest and Trustee, security room can either be in a remote area that is easy to crack without someone noticing, or it can be in view of the civilians currently present in the bank. The bank manager might carry the keycard on him to allow for easier access to security room, or it might be in his office instead. The placement of cameras can be different, guards and civilians, etc. Some doors in the backdoor might be open because a bank employee went to take a smoke, or they might be closed and you'll need to use the lockpick. And then, when opening the vault door, the vault itself either will or will not have another gate that needs to be drilled, taking more time. And all that is just one of the more basic heists, yet there are variables in the way that make your job easier or harder. Then again... Games do allow for more versitility when it comes to something like that.
The thing that never made sense to me was simply that when the bus gets out of the bank and gets in line with the other busses, don't you think the bus behind the jokers bus would have radioed in saying "umbrella, this bus ahead of me just came crashing out of a bank and there's only 1 man in a mask inside. I think this may have been a robbery."
same logic as the video bus could not have a radio, bus could not have a working radio joker bolted at the first turn other crew members on bikes could have taken money joker used the time it took police to go from bus to bus to jump into a sewer and so on
Also, think about the 2 scenes where both the hospital and the ferry were packed with explosives in an incredibly short amount of time. The hospital was completely destroyed. How did nobody see this when someone had to go in a place that is packed with people 24/7 like the hospital, AND NOBODY NOTICES!
A police helicopter would easily identify the bus that has debris on the roof. You would also expect a lot of mobsters in the vicinity of their bank . Places like cofee shops , money exchange , newspaper stands . All being armed , especially in Gotham . The criminals could have been recruited from outside of Gotham , maybe people who are inclined to kill , not really to rob (but they would be less experienced) . The theft plan may not have been disclosed until one hour before starting it (but it's harder to tell them who to kill) . Taking the money out of the safe was laughable , you need at least 3-4 guys . Btw I find the next movie even worse in terms of criminal motivation and planning . You can excuse this scene as it might have happened somewhat different (criminals being killed only after loading the cash etc).
Very well put togheter and entertaining video. I also thought the plan was implausible to say the least. A justification for this could be that Joker sees himself as an agent of chaos and anarchy with little or no concern for his personal safety. Many times in the movie he offers his life to his enemies just to make the point that "there is no point". That aspect of the character made me suspend my disbelief on such a wreckless plan.
Uhh my head is now spinning 😵💫! It reminds me of the heist to grab the suitcase in the Usual Suspects. That very simple plan goes brilliantly off the rails in a very convincing way.
I’m surprised Despot didn’t mention this, but The Dark Knight’s heists were inspired from the ones that occurred in Heat (1995). But I think most can agree that after watching that movie that Heat did it better.
Finally someone says it. I was ok with huge suspension of disbelief for cinematic purposes in the joker scene but when each thug starts killing the next one I called BS on writing. Thankfully Heath Ledgers legendary performance in the remainder of the movie made me forget that nonsense.
It's ridiculous that this movie has a 'grounded, gritty and realistic take' reputation. I don't even think that's what Nolan was going for. He knows this stuff is comic book nonsense.
Even though the luck factor is pretty low, I think that's the point. Because throughout the film, Joker takes wild risks no normal guy would take (basically almost all of this you described). If you need examples other than this, going to the mob boss leaders. In that scene, he kills a guy with a pencil and even after Joker shows his bombs in his coat, one of them could have headshot him or something, but no. He took a big risk. Despite wanting to kill Harvey at the party, once he threatens Rachel and throws her off the building and Batman saves her, this not only makes Joker think Dent is actually Batman, but also takes the risk of not looking for Dent in the party. He also takes a pretty huge risk with the boats. Even though this was his downfall, Joker didn't plan to have another detonator. He has one on hand but he was expecting to fight Batman in the building (which is what happens). So he didn't get another guy or something to detonate the boats in the distance, simply because he wanted to take a risk, or in this case, have the people choose their risks. And not to mention when he filled the hospital and boats with bombs for people apparently to not notice. That might be a plot hole but it's technically a risk worth taking. And of course estimating the height the helicopter would be for it to get wired and trapped. The reason I say this, is because this is what Joker is supposed to be in my opinion. An expert strategist that has a point of view of insanity, and is willing to take big risks to see what happens. Especially when he is doing this with Batman. Because keep in mind that in all of the good Batman media, Joker is perfectly fine with killing civilians, terrorists, and Robins alike, but he never intentionally tries to kill Batman. He sees if he can survive his puzzles and challenges, but all in all, he tries to study him. He doesn't care who Batman is. He just wants to play. Whether that be a game of cat and mouse or an old fashioned duel. So despite many things possibly going wrong in the bank heist, might as well try something new for your first robbery to put yourself on the radar. Also, I know one of your points was what if they rat this heist out to a mob, I don't think a small heist would interest them as much.
Great video, I love The Dark Knight; but if you made a video about how implausible and needlessly convoluted The Joker's plans are, it would be as long as the film itself, at least. P.S. I love that you used The Place Beyond The Pines as a reference. One of my favorite films.
Or the bus driver that gets cut off by a random bus pulling out of a bank could call the police. I always thought that was weird that he just follows in behind and doesn't stop or do anything a normal person would do.
Thematically, the Joker prays on people's base instincts. From the thieves killing each other to collect their shares, to making two crooks kill each other in "tryouts", to making two boats full of people blow each other up before the other boat does, Joker believes that civilization is skin-deep and seeks to expose what he sees as a phallacy. The thieves themselves say during the heist that if anyone of their own dies, the rest collect his share. Joker probably relied on their greed and let them kill each other. However, professionals don't act that way. Pros operate with military precision. This requires trust.
As much as I loved it as an opening and it really set the tone for what we were gonna get, the heist is just not feasible. Like you said, there is too many variables that could go wrong with the most glaring being that the heist bus should have been so noticeable.
I think there are core points that far out weigh the smaller points, almost making them redundant (ie the bus running out of gas - that level of negligence equates to a stroke of bad luck essentially on par with the driver having a medical emergency or change of heart). Although, I appreciate the detail that went into this. Core point 1. General timing. The timing of the bus arriving at the end matching up with all the other steps of the plan is absolutely insane. I think if you did a huge amount of statistical analysis you could generate a solid 5 minute window that the bus needs to arrive within. That was probably the crux of the plan. If we can get this bus here in the 5 minute window we can make sure we are ready and hopefully get out alright. Bus has to facilitate backing into a bank at speed, on a busy road though. That is very difficult. Then pulling it out onto the street without someone calling the cops is wild. Core point 2. Keeping the crew inline. The skills they display make them smart and experienced criminals. Why would they be willing to kill a member in the crew? Answer is they are complete psychopaths who enjoy partaking in the Joker's insane plans and the risks that go along with it. That's probably the only reason they agreed to signup with the Joker in the first place. The insane odds and pointless killing are all a part of the fun. That's the point.
You reliably put out some of the best content on RUclips, at least in my opinion. I didn't know that the things I have to go right are called critical success factors. I just call them things that have to go right. You have a good way of calculating overall success rate too. Good work here.
I can’t believe I’m found you this early in your RUclips career Ives been watching all your videos for 2 days now laughing uncontrollably. Thanks from LA. I’m surrounded by these idiots and I’ll be using some of the stuff you’ve said to them. Thank you keep going
It'll all boils down to "how come none of the drivers in the bus row seems to be surprised that one of them just came out of a frigging bank leaving a trail of debris behind it"? "Oh yeah, that's gotta be Joe, he's always crashing into government buildings, lol."
Nevermind that the bus rammed through a bank wall and yet shows no damage, not even scratches to the paint, and is able to blend in with busses that did not just ram through a bank wall.
17:00 - Or someone sees them grappling across! I guess the Joker could have hired the other school buses; but that's more vehicles and more people! Spot on assessment! Knowing he was going to burn the money, he could have just torched it in the vault! Though come on, be fair... haven't we all gotten money out the hole in the wall before!! >XD Edit: I only just noticed the Ocean's 11 music in the background; Nice ref, an even more ridiculous heist!
To this day that bus scene makes zero fucking sense to me. Was his bus part of the conga line of buses? Did he have prior knowledge to a conga line of buses, so decided to steal a bus, crash it into the bank, and wait for the exact moment there was an opening in the line to merge with it? Why were all the buses all two feet apart except for the one he needed to merge with? How did no see, react, or report a fucking bus backed into a bank with gunshots in the background? No matter which way you interpret that scene, nothing about it makes a lick of fucking sense and the odds of any possibility playing out is astronomical. Nolan pulls shit like this quite a bit in his movies and I really wish it would get called out more often. Suspension of disbelief can only do so much...
A couple of years ago, I watched another RUclips Creator give an almost identical opinion about Bane's helicopter heist in the sequel. He analyzes the job in detail, and outlines where this intricate plan - executed while the chopper is in flight - could go wrong at any time
Even tough the scene watches great I always tought "Are all the school buses drivers set, or what the heck?" hahahaha. It adds another layer of possible snitches haha
There is a 100% chance that all the other school bus drivers notice a stray bus drive out of a building and think its going to "blend in" with them. They all have radios and all talk to each other all the time.
I've also thought about many of the same issues with the scene you pointed out, my take is that The Joker has a similar power to Domino from Deadpool 2 (and Marvel Comics) - some sort of reality alteration field around him that insanely boosts his luck and makes events that normally have a 0.000001% chance of success be given a near 100% chance. It also makes him practically impossible to kill, which is why Batman manages to save him at the end of the film when Joker falls down seemingly too quickly for Batman's grappling hook to catch him. Perhaps it only works if the Joker's life is in danger, which is why the Prisoner's Dilemma with the two ships scheme ended up failing, because the Joker's life wasn't directly in danger (or perhaps if one or both ships did end up detonating it would have somehow led to Joker dying, which is why it ended up failing to prevent Joker's death from happening)
Nice and fun video! I feel like it's typical of Nolan movies to be very susceptible to fridge logic like this. It's so often clear that he has no clue about the subject matter
Not to mention school bus drivers all have CB radios and would immediately start asking the other drivers in the line who is driving that one random bus covered in dust who just barged into the school convoy.
That's the point though, ain't it? That he's a agent of chaos and not a meticulous planner? That's, like, the idea of the Joker? He "just want to see the world burn"? Hell, I don't think he'd give a crap if the bank heist would have "failed" as long as it caused sufficient collateral damage.
Your videos are always great. BUT… This one time you missed the point: The Joker doesn’t care if this plan works or not. He “just does things”, meaning he enjoys the “sport” of it all. If this plan to goad the mob works, great! If not, surely he has several other equally insane cartoony schemes up his purple sleeve..!
It would have been fittingly funny if the joker had basically abandoned all of these guys to the police knowing that it was a deliberately bad plan instead of killing them because even one of those bags of money is going to have hundreds of thousands of dollars that he needs for the start-up of his little Enterprise
If they wanted gritty and down-to-Earth, they could have done a two part TV special adapting the Dumpster-Slasher storyline which directly addressed how Batman's methods could lead to a person for whom there is a decent amount of evidence proving their guilt to get away on a technicality and how a regular vigilante can do what Batman is simply not willing to do.
Ok, it’s not just me that thought the same thing about this scene. I mean, above all else, why wouldn’t any of the other bus drivers say anything about a random bus popping out of a building like that.
You missed the biggest issue: The zip line people blow a window and that throws glass onto the ground. It’s a very busy metropolis and there is 100% going to be someone on the ground who will be hit, look up and see some shady shit, call the cops and tell them some shit is happening on that street (which the cops will soon see is right next to a massive bank). Less than a quarter into the heist the cops would have shown up and stopped them all.
the difference between these two heists? Batman. one of them is a realistic thriller, the other is a comic book adaption. also. the Shepard Tone in Zimmer's OST is a tension multiplier. it builds in a linear relentless fashion that drags you into the tension. Among The Pines.. is shot entirely differently & doesn't have the same ominous tone. your point tho, that the Joker heist is random nonsense, stands. it doesn't make a lick of sense. pretty much like any scene in TDK. but the way it's shot & sound boarded makes you ignore those holes. also.. good to see a Norn Irn lad doing the video essay stuff 😉
Yes, good movie, though the Nazi banker sub-plot was crap. I don't think it would work, once a reward is offered after the job, someone from the crew would give the guy in the bank up. It would be a prisoner's dilemma 'I can wait for someone else to snitch and go to jail, or I can snitch, get paid and stay free.' Not a chance that crew stays quiet for more than a couple of days, never mind a month.
Lol the bus get away is the stupidest getaway plan ever. He would be caught in literally 26 seconds. First off a bus could never drive through a bank wall. I hate Christopher Nolan.
Развлечения
Here's the most important part. THE BUS DRIVER BEHIND THE JOKER'S BUS SHOULD HAVE SEEN A BUS DRIVE OUT OF THE WALL IN THE BANK.
Exactly. A problem easily remedied to have had the parade of real buses on an adjacent street just out of sight from the bank disaster, so the other bus drivers would let it in like it just got lost or something.
Man, they don’t pay bus drivers enough to not let a fellow bus driver in. Even if he is driving out of a hole in a bank!
He was in on it. The sixth member who was instructed to leave a gap and to kill themself after they’re not needed anymore. Pure genius that joker fellow.
@@samipersun9995 Who the fuck would accept a job where they kill themselves? Money wouldn’t matter at that point.
U forget it's Gotham, they see f up shit all the time, they aren't gonna wanna get involved lol
How hard can it be to find a clueless, loyal, homicidal, weapons-proficient, schizophrenic safecracking wizard with zip line experience who won't keep an eye on the guy behind him?
with current world shenanigans happening right before our eyes?
very easy
hire some blackwater mercs or wagner group just to be sure
This is a great example of a well-made sequence disguising a poor concept. The first time I watched it the only thing that really stood out was the idea that the robbers would be both happy to murder each other AND unaware that they're all equally expendable.
Despot, I'd like to personally thank you for informing me about the intricacies of what goes into a bank robbery. I've been planning one for a while, and your analysis allowed me to see a number of flaws that were still very much present in my plans, holes that I've since plugged to make it utterly waterproof. I'll be a rich man thanks to you!
there's something so funny about the combination of your comment and your username
This was perfect!
@@cranberryrosebud well since he made this comment on google his account is now flagged and his IP is probably sent to the fbi by now. I hope hes not sitting in prison right now
I hope it went well! Send me a buck or two.
can i join?
19:04 - you forgot: "The school bus behind the getaway bus has a phone and calls the police, identifying the license plate of the bus he JUST saw drive out of the bank in front of him, covered in debris"
He easily could've switched plates
@@pyropulseIXXI ...Except that this would only make it impossible to track down the origin of the bus. The police would still have the license plates present on the bus at the time of the robbery, and any officer on patrol would be able to compare them with any passing bus.
Also every bus I was ever in had a radio so ya don't even need the phone factor
This scene wasn't the only nonsense. 'The Dark Knight' is entertaining, but the Joker has so much Plot Power that he may as well be magic. A couple minute's thought about almost every major plan of his shows it is impossible to do without having read the script.
The helicopter scene was always something that bothered me. How the fuck did the joker know not only that the police would send a helicopter flying at a low enough height to set up a trap, but also where to set up said trap?
@@goukeban6197 Exactly! And speaking of 'knowing ahead of time' His Demolition of the Hospital is Head-Smashingly retarded. It can take up to MONTHS of highly-trained Engineers to set up a demolition job.
Even if we say he doesn't care about 'being neat' (Which he certainly doesn't) it would still take weeks to place the charges well enough so that the building goes down, smoothly or not!
And... wait a sec... where did he get the MONEY for all this Hardware? I thought he burned it all. :-/ HE may not care about money, but I can guarantee you his flunkies and the people he does business with certainly do.
Lastly, for those random readers stumbling across this- 'The Dark Knight' is a very good movie. Excellent performances, great character work, production values are through the roof... The fact is, with a lesser film, these flaws would render it unwatchable, but Nolan is a master and the Good definitely outweighs the bad.
@@torikazuki8701 And that was right after pulling off an insane car chase, kidnapping two high-profile individuals AND breaking from the police station!
@@torikazuki8701For the last complaint he almost certainly took the other half of the thugs money.
But there are other questions.
How did he rig the boats and warehouses in such a short time?
How did no one notice him smuggling explosives on board the boats?
How did he play dead so effectively that no one questioned it?
And so on and so forth.
@@fictiontheorizer4253 Spot On! But, like I said awhile ago, it is due to the excellent performances, high-quality production and Nolan's Masterful Direction that we *Buy* any of that nonsense.
At least while watching it. ^_~
Something that bugs me is the part later with Joker taunting the guy until he goes for him.
People dealing with psychopaths are specifically trained and taught to ignore them. Like, the thing about psychopaths at the level where they need to be locked away is that they're extremely predictable, to the point where if you know how to handle them they're basically harmless.
So, the police officer assigned to watch Joker would have been fully aware of everything he would say and prepared to ignore him. Like, someone would have said "Hey man, just si you know, he's a psychopath. He's definitely gonna bring up the dead cops to get to you. Are you prepared for that?"
For reference, I knew a guy who was a security guard in a hospital who had to watch a psychopath. The guy killed his wife and baby, so his shift would be hours of the guy saying "I killed a baby? Do you want to hear me describe her death to you? PAY ATTENTION TO ME!!" He said that even just doing one shift made him pretty numb to the crap psychopaths say.
Very comprehensive list. One thing that always screamed out to me was how obviously the bus driver behind the bus when it drives OUT of the bank, would call the police and know the numberplate etc. We're supposed to believe a school bus driver will watch a bus drive out of a building, dust and debris falling off of it, and think nothing more about it? Sure Nolan, sure.
Also how did he get a school bus? They can't be that easy to steal...
It is a movie, you absolute oaf. "Sure, Nolan, sure." lmao, what are you even doing? It isn't hard to switch out plates, and you don't even see what happens after.
Also, did you question why a batman even exists? The entire notion is very implausible. We're supposed to believe a billionaire would become a highly trained ninja super hero? Sure Nolan, sure
School busses have big black numbers on them though. Also, the conceit of supers existing is supposed to be the major suspension of disbelief in this genre. If we pile on more suspension because non super elements are straining against what think should be reality (that this Gotham is just Chicago) then the movies foundation falls apart. Just because your movie has magic space wizards doesn't mean the plot has to be a mess.
All the school bus drivers are in on it too.
@@pyropulseIXXI 🤣 I guess you don't see the point of the video then.
Holy crap, an idea just popped in my head; wouldn't it have been cool had all these henchmen in fact been depicted as previous criminal masterminds, each with great gifts, and he convinced them all to work together on a job that was really designed to eliminate them, not actually get the money. And they were each one at a time learning this when it's too late, and then the cruel irony be that he ends up actually getting the money too, through luck, and that's how it ends, him laughing at getting such a bonus.
That actually is such a stereotypical Joker moment. He didn't care about the money one bit but walks away with it just out of sheer dumb luck? I can hear Mark Hamill laughing up a storm now
@@kingsadvisor18 You're right, I guess it's an established part of his character to not really want the things he steals to have for himself as much as just take them away from people who want them.
But this is a story angle (duping his accomplices in the act) that would have been cool if they thought of it, and it would have made sense that he would want to kill the small fish in the act of conspiring with him all in one big elaborate heist. He could have even mocked them just before killing them with criticisms like the ones here in this review, "you all are so stupid to fall for this" sort of thing.
@@kingsadvisor18 the joker is like an ork. his sheer insanity bends reality
@@TheWizardGamezthe Ork Who Laughs
This would have been awesome.
The one that makes me scratch my head is that the bus drives out of the bank into a perfectly sized gap in a line of buses. How? We're all the buses working for joker? If so he'd have a lot more accomplices to kill
The last Skit was hillarious!!😂😂😂
LOL! Yes!😂😂
Frick that, don't be such a frigging scaredy-cat.
"Fuck that. Don't be such a fuckin' pussy." The use of that clip had me doubled over in laughter.
Oh boy
The Despot is about to grill some sacred cows with this one
Forbidden fruit is sweet.
@@DespotofAntrim Mmmmm I can taste the suffering 😋
This heist wouldve ended like in Heat
Excellent analysis but you forgot the first mistake that would’ve red flagged the operation from the start: the zip liners busting out a high story window and showering the sidewalk below with glass. This surely would’ve been noticed and alarmed people before the car even arrives.
Should have used a glass cutter, if you ask me.
This is way the Dark Knight never clicked with me. It tries to look super realistic and down to earth, but the plot needs the Joker to basically be able to see the future. Something you wouldn't see in most far less "realistic" versions of the character. I like more stylied takes on Batman more for this reason. More room for suspension of disbelief.
If you want see a movie that does a good job showing the pitfalls of trying to do the perfect crime? The Killing by Stanley Kubrick. It's one of the best written movies of all time.
I've never seen the Killing. I will definitely watch it. Thanks for the suggestion!
@@DespotofAntrim
bruh...
@@jasonvoorhees5640 Say what you want to say, bRuH.
@@AppleOfThineEye
what do you mean kid?
@@jasonvoorhees5640 I meant what I said, KiD.
I view that heist as a choreographed fight in a martial arts movie: It looks impressive as hell but it doesn't look like a real fight would.
That because real fights end quickly
@@Galvatronover exactly.
@@bkatbamnastill entertaining though.
No doubt.@@prometheus9732
The more problematic thing for me is how the Joker gets anyone to work for him when it gets out that he always intended to kill all the people involved in his bank heist and then burns most of the money to boot.
It isn't like he is making a pattern of doing this; he did both of those things one time
@@pyropulseIXXI So? The point is, that once it got known, why would anyone else - especially greedy criminal types - take a chance on him not repeating it?
@@Scotty-P well they specifically state in the film that joker hires paranoid schizophrenics and the such. So mentally ill people who don't understand or care anyway...
@@overlean1 How are; or so many, "mentally ill" "paranoid schizophrenics" are answering job notices?! This guys in the first job didn't seem like so either.
@@Scotty-P Word gets around? It was a single bank heist, and he wasn't running a huge operation; it isn't hard to hire people when you have access to such 'funds,' and there is no pattern of him doing this before, so him hiring people shortly after wouldn't be an issue; people wouldn't even know Joker was behind this so soon
And the Joker didn't burn money until the end, after the culmination of his plans, so how the f*ck would 'word getting around' be an issue for him?
The movie ends soon after that
"The Joker's heist has the appearance of being genius because it is intricate and complex and has many twists and turns" Well isn't that just a great description of Nolan's filmography
Tenet
To a small bit of my shame, I used to use and sell heroin and other narcotics about 10 years ago. I also was involved in some intense situations. Breaking and entering into certain places for instance. I have experienced what it feels like to be in these situations and let me tell you something about them: The amount of adrenaline that hits you is literally staggering. I mean it physically alters the way you move, the way you think, there is a marked difference in how you experience time, and much more.
When it comes to situations like this, unless you and your entire team are absolutely hardened pros who have nothing to lose and don’t fear death/punishment, mistakes WILL be made. So, yes….Joker’s plan is a complete Hollywood farce (still entertaining) because even if he is a genius, his plan relies on unpredictable individuals who he has no clue on whether or not they will fulfill their responsibilities in the exact way he wants them to.
This is a really interesting comment. I think The Place Beyond the Pines depicts some of what you are describing (obviously I wouldn't know). Glad that you don't sell heroin anymore!
I love the way you describe the adrenaline bit. There’s an adrenaline rush, and then there’s fight or flight, and they’re objectively different experiences. I’ve been in some very intense situations where my freedom and life were threatened and when it’s crunch time, it’s like you’re in the most vivid goddamn dream you’ve ever had. There is no pain.
@@GarrettLoganGriffin Your response made me read my comment again and I realized that I should mention something else. I had a friend tell me that your body gets used to the adrenaline. He was stealing cars every day and running from the cops regularly….he told me that his body got used to the adrenaline. But he also was using meth so I’m not sure how accurate his facts are. I’m sure very experienced people can adapt to the adrenaline or they are used to it. I never got used to it….it always hit me like a freight train.
@@johnselden9257 Same. I’m sure just like any drug, your body can build a tolerance for it if it happens so regularly. But yeah, I guess I didn’t get into enough shit🤣 Aaaaaalways hit me like a ton of bricks, too, bro.
Always entertaining Despot.. I think the biggest problem with the jokers plan is guaranteeing the bloke you are supposed to kill via bus through the wall is going to be stood exactly where he needs to be when it turns up. I can't get a bus when I stand at a stop! 🤣
You highlighted something that has always bothered me with Nolan's films. Yes, they're slick, cool and entertaining, absolutely. However, they are not gritty, grounded or realistic in any way. They are pure fantasy. There's nothing wrong with fantasy, just don't try to convince me that your Super Soaker is a TEC-9.
No the Batman films are not fantasy
@@Galvatronover I'm not talking about genre.
It's not about the plan...it's about sending...
This was a thorough analysis, and I'm glad you included the clip of the expert explaining what requirements are necessary for success. I have not seen this movie, but of course the robbery plan is completely and ridiculously over the top.
The instant a new boss who has hired me for contract work tells me when the job is done, I should kill a particular colleague, whom I don't know yet, I would immediately assume that the boss has told somebody else to kill me. That's kind of a dealbreaker for me.
Your points about installing the zip line, and then actually using the zip line, are well taken.
How can the Joker be certain that his employees will be able to carry out the plan under pressure? It may sound doable, and the crew may be eager, but when in the real world, any number of variables can pop up. Expecting everybody to stay cool, calm and collected and to carry on executing the plan as previously discussed is taking a big chance.
Ask anybody who has never acted before how they felt going up on stage in front of an audience and saying the lines just like in rehearsal.
Ask a police recruit, who completed all mandatory training of the most dangerous situations in a training environment, how to confront the real thing on his first day on the job.
In both cases, it can happen that the person is overwhelmed, feels the fight, flight or freeze response, and is unable to do what they did in training or rehearsal. Since the Joker doesn't know these people, how can he rely on them to carry out the plan?
Just wondering: several times you mentioned one of the variables might be "an off-duty cop who wants to be a hero" or "a man who wants to assert his masculinity after decades of sitting at a desk job". It sounded like you were sneering at them but I may have misunderstood that.
I would think anybody who is trying to intervene is voluntarily putting themselves in a life and death situation in order to stop a violent crime in progress, and the potential the same criminals have for further violence after they leave the bank. The other option would be for the would-be intervener to decide he'd rather not risk his life and hide behind furniture instead while calling 911. Which is probably also a valid choice.
Thanks for the video!
I wasn't sneering at anyone, but I wouldn't encourage anyone to risk their life to save a bank's insurance company from a loss. If it was your house, the bank would happily wash the money stolen from it. Interesting comment about fight or flight, I was just thinking that the zipliners would take one look out that window, think 'Yea, fuck that.' and take off, end of heist.
@@DespotofAntrim no, you are quite right! Risking one’s life to help the bank not to lose money is not the best idea.
Do you watch the channel “pitch meetings?” The screenwriter guy will say he wants a particular scene to unfold a certain way. The producer guy will say, but that’s extremely dangerous and there’s no way that could succeed. And screenwriter guy will say but it will look cool and exciting in the trailer so people will come and spend money to watch the movie. So producer guy will say great, let’s do it!
This is probably a very accurate representation of what goes on in Hollywood.
I always enjoy your videos very much. Thank you!
Id sneer 2. Why risk innocent life over insured and tainted money? By someobe escalating the situation. Just observe the situation until it's over and try and find the culprits later?
I mean the Joker did say, "Do I look like the kind of guy with plan?" So I guess he wasn't lying.
12:09 I know I'm an overzealous accountant...but I'm not currently in a midlife crisis.
What movie is that?
@@hughmcgown My own life. =D
Exactly. This very thought was blaring in my head when watching that very Joker bank heist. It wasn't an exhibition in criminal genius but a hailstorm in lucking out. And it's amazingly effective comparison between those two different heists. A moment of devil's advocacy, I think comic book movie villains fare better in film to keep the spirit of comicbook universe absurdity. Make things TOO realistic and it strangely is less entertaining, at least how I see it.
I still think the idea that Joker wanted to not share the gains and not risk having any henchmen that can rat him out could have just simply happen in a simple way AFTER the job is done, not DURING it. A "post robbery shocker," blowing up the bus full of them celebrating afterwards, etc. It also would make Joker look smarter, look more appealing to future henchmen to work with him because nobody knows he killed any before.
4:04 "You can maximize your luck with preparation and experience."
Well, more specifically, you can minimized your need for luck or susceptibility to bad luck with them.
I think I kind of always knew that the plan itself was stupid but the scene never actually bothered me because I never saw it as "establishing the Joker's strategic genius."
For the Joker, I think this scene establishes several things which your video inadvertently points out.
1) The Joker knows people. You said several times "No one would act like this" but this is Gotham City. People absolutely would act like this in a city presented as corrupt as Gotham. Especially considering how slim pickings the presence of the Batman would make a criminal life these days.
2) The Joker is always in control. We simply don't know what kind of back up plans the Joker had for each element of the heist. He chose his crew precisely--your video points out how exact Joker would have to be to do that. He counted on interference from the mob enforcer in the bank. He counted on or simply didn't care about each of the potential pitfalls to his plan.
3) The Joker just doesn't care. I never saw the heist as needing to get away with the money at all. This scene is intended to establish Joker's boldness--he just does not care at all about the mob, the police or the Batman. He sees himself as above them all. And this bank heist is actually just a means to get the mob's attention--something he accomplishes whether he gets the money or not.
As Joker says later in the movie: "It's not about money. It's about sending a message." THAT is the point of the bank heist. Sending the message that everything burns: money, criminal underworlds, law and order, honor among thieves... EVERYTHING burns. The Joker is FAR more pleased with himself that he convinced 3 people to kill someone than any amount of money he got.
For the movie, this also establishes a number of important plot points:
1) Harkening back to the first point about the Joker, this is the heart of the philosophical conflict of the movie--what are people willing to do to each other. Just as the Joker, being the psychopath that he is, can find people willing to do unspeakable things to each other, Gotham City PRODUCES people willing to do unspeakable things to each other. That's the contrast with the Batman. Batman is the symbol of hope against the despair of Gotham; the Joker is the symbol of the depravity of Gotham.
2) This also portrays the weakened position of the mob. Four experienced criminals are willing to cross the mob because Batman has shown Gotham that they are absolutely not invincible. The safe cracker even comments that a mob bank is the kind of bank that wires its safe doors with booby traps but doesn't seem to care. It might still be a bit "crazy" to openly defy the mob like this but the mob are nowhere near the threat that they once were. This is the power vacuum that the Joker is filling. This is the unintended consequences of Batman's crusade--anytime you tear down existing structures for good or ill there is always the possibility that something worse will rise in its stead. This is not to comment on the moral value of what Batman--or anyone else--maybe trying to accomplish. It is simply a reality that even the best-intentioned people must be aware of.
3) And finally we see the still hollowed out morality of Gotham. The Joker knows there aren't going to be any cops near this bank. It's a MOB bank. He also knows that no one in Gotham has the moral courage to stand up to three armed men entering a bank nor will they have the moral courage to report it. That's the reason Gotham is the way it is in the first place. As Rachel says in Batman Begins: "Falcone floods our streets with crime and drugs, preying on the desperate... We all know where to find him. But as long as he keeps the bad people rich and the good people scared, no one will touch him. The good people like your parents who'll stand against injustice. They're gone. What chance does Gotham have when the good people do nothing?"
Watching the Joker and two more armed men in masks walk into a bank in broad daylight an NO ONE even seems to care is reminding the audience exactly what kind of city this is. Don't fool yourselves: Gotham is a hellhole.
As far as realistic bank heists go... yeah... this isn't the tightest operation by a long shot. But I also never really saw it that way. I always saw this scene as establishing the Joker's character (which is NOT a tactical genius by his own admission) and establishing the rules of this universe. In the real world, this bank heist would probably fail.
But in Gotham City... the fact that it succeeds shows you exactly what kind of world you're dealing with and the almost supernatural powers of perception possessed by the Joker.
Very good points, I can definitely see the thematic elements and character / world building in this scene. Like I said, it's a great scene, but a significant portion of the audience really do take seriously as a realistic heist.
@@DespotofAntrim Oh, I don't doubt that. And your video is very well-made and thoughtful. It just never really occurred to me to take the heist itself seriously. But I can see how a lot of people would.
And as you say, they really shouldn't.
In my opinion, the sole good point you made to the defense of this robbery is that the Joker is indeed insane and uncaring. It is in fact the only thing that can explain a plan this bad. The rest remains accurate on Despot's arguments, and the Joker not caring doesn't explain how the hell he actually pulled it off.
@@TheStraightestWhitest Maybe. But, again, I'm not actually defending the plan itself. Despot's arguments are sound--in the real world. But the point of the sequence isn't a how-to on real world robbery practices. There is no logical reason anyone would attempt a robbery this complex with anything less than an air tight crew you've been working with for 20 years.
The *only* reasons that this works is because of the ones I've stated--who the Joker is and who Gotham City is. It is a mistake on the part of the viewer to take this scene and conclude that the Joker is brilliant. His plan sucks. What we are meant to take away is how insane he is and how morally bankrupt Gotham is.
Any other conclusion misses the point entirely
@@johnbabylon7626 - so what you're saying is … this bank robbery is a joke?
I always thought this was a silly scene. Especially the bus seemlessly driving down the steps and blending into the other buses. What was the bus driver directly behind the Joker's bus thinking when they saw this?
You know it’s ironic that Christopher Nolan states that the inspiration for the bank heists was from the several heists that occurred in the movie Heat (1995). Except for those who’ve actually seen Heat, you would know that the reason why that movie’s heists work is because there was way better planning, but still more casualties when things would backfire on McCauley and his crew.
This reminds me another scene in The Dark Knight Rises where villans hijacked an aeroplane. It looks spectacular but when you think about it, is it even feasible?
The same director so that is his style, I guess...
Also how did the CIA pilot not notice the giant cargo plane flying right above them and make any evasive manuvers.
The place Beyond the pines is actually the same exact plan the most successful bank robber ever used. Except he did it alone.
Like the direction of Zack Snyder, the direction of Chrishopher Nolan is the perfect embodiment of the principle of "style over substance". Their movies look gorgeous and have a great flow, but the cracks start to show the moment you start looking for plotholes.
You know, the point about vault having a second gate reminds me - in Payday 2, a game that has a lot to be desired in terms of... Everything (janky AI, glitches up it's bum, list goes on), one of the first heists you'd likely do in it is Harvest and Trustee branch. The heist can be done both in stealth and loud, depending on whether or not guards and civilians will be disposed of in quickly enough. Now, despite gang consisting of 20+ people, the jobs are handed and controlled by their mastermind, Bain, who never shows up his face (aside from one occassion, but getting to the context behind it would take too long, plus it's not really that relevant to the point), is hiding in a remote location, and uses bunch of IT wizardry to hide his traces, so realistically, he's the one that has the least risk involved, but like you said, it's not 0% (which does bite him in the ass eventually). The heist itself is carried out by a team of 4 (allowing for a 4 player co-op). Now, in game, nobody is going to snitch, but if you really want to add the odds, you can do so. Funnily enough, the odds of someone not being experienced at their task can be applied at the leisure. Equipment and skills might also vary, so we can add that (someone might not bring silenced weapon, or someone might not have faster lockpicking, etc). And once we're past the human element, we can move onto what really sets Payday apart - RNG. Each heist in the game has a set of variables that can play out during the heist - be it small things, like additional loot in deposit boxes, but it can be also major, like placement of key items, vault, or security room. On aforementioned Harvest and Trustee, security room can either be in a remote area that is easy to crack without someone noticing, or it can be in view of the civilians currently present in the bank. The bank manager might carry the keycard on him to allow for easier access to security room, or it might be in his office instead. The placement of cameras can be different, guards and civilians, etc. Some doors in the backdoor might be open because a bank employee went to take a smoke, or they might be closed and you'll need to use the lockpick. And then, when opening the vault door, the vault itself either will or will not have another gate that needs to be drilled, taking more time.
And all that is just one of the more basic heists, yet there are variables in the way that make your job easier or harder. Then again... Games do allow for more versitility when it comes to something like that.
nice wall of text...
Wall of text with little substance. Also Payday 2 goes hard. No clue what you're on.
The thing that never made sense to me was simply that when the bus gets out of the bank and gets in line with the other busses, don't you think the bus behind the jokers bus would have radioed in saying "umbrella, this bus ahead of me just came crashing out of a bank and there's only 1 man in a mask inside. I think this may have been a robbery."
same logic as the video
bus could not have a radio, bus could not have a working radio
joker bolted at the first turn
other crew members on bikes could have taken money
joker used the time it took police to go from bus to bus to jump into a sewer
and so on
Also, think about the 2 scenes where both the hospital and the ferry were packed with explosives in an incredibly short amount of time. The hospital was completely destroyed. How did nobody see this when someone had to go in a place that is packed with people 24/7 like the hospital, AND NOBODY NOTICES!
A police helicopter would easily identify the bus that has debris on the roof.
You would also expect a lot of mobsters in the vicinity of their bank . Places like cofee shops , money exchange , newspaper stands . All being armed , especially in Gotham .
The criminals could have been recruited from outside of Gotham , maybe people who are inclined to kill , not really to rob (but they would be less experienced) . The theft plan may not have been disclosed until one hour before starting it (but it's harder to tell them who to kill) .
Taking the money out of the safe was laughable , you need at least 3-4 guys .
Btw I find the next movie even worse in terms of criminal motivation and planning . You can excuse this scene as it might have happened somewhat different (criminals being killed only after loading the cash etc).
Very well put togheter and entertaining video. I also thought the plan was implausible to say the least.
A justification for this could be that Joker sees himself as an agent of chaos and anarchy with little or no concern for his personal safety.
Many times in the movie he offers his life to his enemies just to make the point that "there is no point".
That aspect of the character made me suspend my disbelief on such a wreckless plan.
Uhh my head is now spinning 😵💫! It reminds me of the heist to grab the suitcase in the Usual Suspects. That very simple plan goes brilliantly off the rails in a very convincing way.
I’m surprised Despot didn’t mention this, but The Dark Knight’s heists were inspired from the ones that occurred in Heat (1995). But I think most can agree that after watching that movie that Heat did it better.
Joker: Do I really look like a guy with a plan?
There's an old saying: three may keep a secret if two of them are dead.
Something people who believe in a JFK conspiracy never bother to think about.
@@robertromero8692 TRUTH!
"Do I really look like a guy with a plan?"
Finally someone says it. I was ok with huge suspension of disbelief for cinematic purposes in the joker scene but when each thug starts killing the next one I called BS on writing. Thankfully Heath Ledgers legendary performance in the remainder of the movie made me forget that nonsense.
It's ridiculous that this movie has a 'grounded, gritty and realistic take' reputation. I don't even think that's what Nolan was going for. He knows this stuff is comic book nonsense.
Even though the luck factor is pretty low, I think that's the point. Because throughout the film, Joker takes wild risks no normal guy would take (basically almost all of this you described). If you need examples other than this, going to the mob boss leaders.
In that scene, he kills a guy with a pencil and even after Joker shows his bombs in his coat, one of them could have headshot him or something, but no. He took a big risk.
Despite wanting to kill Harvey at the party, once he threatens Rachel and throws her off the building and Batman saves her, this not only makes Joker think Dent is actually Batman, but also takes the risk of not looking for Dent in the party.
He also takes a pretty huge risk with the boats. Even though this was his downfall, Joker didn't plan to have another detonator. He has one on hand but he was expecting to fight Batman in the building (which is what happens). So he didn't get another guy or something to detonate the boats in the distance, simply because he wanted to take a risk, or in this case, have the people choose their risks. And not to mention when he filled the hospital and boats with bombs for people apparently to not notice. That might be a plot hole but it's technically a risk worth taking. And of course estimating the height the helicopter would be for it to get wired and trapped.
The reason I say this, is because this is what Joker is supposed to be in my opinion. An expert strategist that has a point of view of insanity, and is willing to take big risks to see what happens. Especially when he is doing this with Batman. Because keep in mind that in all of the good Batman media, Joker is perfectly fine with killing civilians, terrorists, and Robins alike, but he never intentionally tries to kill Batman. He sees if he can survive his puzzles and challenges, but all in all, he tries to study him. He doesn't care who Batman is. He just wants to play. Whether that be a game of cat and mouse or an old fashioned duel. So despite many things possibly going wrong in the bank heist, might as well try something new for your first robbery to put yourself on the radar. Also, I know one of your points was what if they rat this heist out to a mob, I don't think a small heist would interest them as much.
Great video, I love The Dark Knight; but if you made a video about how implausible and needlessly convoluted The Joker's plans are, it would be as long as the film itself, at least.
P.S. I love that you used The Place Beyond The Pines as a reference. One of my favorite films.
Agreed. The jokers plan still beats Oceans Eleven.
Turn to channel 88.
Or the bus driver that gets cut off by a random bus pulling out of a bank could call the police. I always thought that was weird that he just follows in behind and doesn't stop or do anything a normal person would do.
I only discovered this channel tonight. Now this is my 4th video and it's 5am. I need to sleep lol
But awesome content 👏
Lol, please do not allow my channel to interfere with your sleep. Thanks for watching!
Thematically, the Joker prays on people's base instincts. From the thieves killing each other to collect their shares, to making two crooks kill each other in "tryouts", to making two boats full of people blow each other up before the other boat does, Joker believes that civilization is skin-deep and seeks to expose what he sees as a phallacy.
The thieves themselves say during the heist that if anyone of their own dies, the rest collect his share. Joker probably relied on their greed and let them kill each other. However, professionals don't act that way. Pros operate with military precision. This requires trust.
Nolan's movies aren't actually realistic, they're fantastical but with realistic styling.
As much as I loved it as an opening and it really set the tone for what we were gonna get, the heist is just not feasible. Like you said, there is too many variables that could go wrong with the most glaring being that the heist bus should have been so noticeable.
Re-upload gang
I forgot to increase the volume of the video and didn't realize until I just after I'd uploaded.
I think there are core points that far out weigh the smaller points, almost making them redundant (ie the bus running out of gas - that level of negligence equates to a stroke of bad luck essentially on par with the driver having a medical emergency or change of heart). Although, I appreciate the detail that went into this.
Core point 1. General timing. The timing of the bus arriving at the end matching up with all the other steps of the plan is absolutely insane. I think if you did a huge amount of statistical analysis you could generate a solid 5 minute window that the bus needs to arrive within. That was probably the crux of the plan. If we can get this bus here in the 5 minute window we can make sure we are ready and hopefully get out alright. Bus has to facilitate backing into a bank at speed, on a busy road though. That is very difficult. Then pulling it out onto the street without someone calling the cops is wild.
Core point 2. Keeping the crew inline. The skills they display make them smart and experienced criminals. Why would they be willing to kill a member in the crew? Answer is they are complete psychopaths who enjoy partaking in the Joker's insane plans and the risks that go along with it. That's probably the only reason they agreed to signup with the Joker in the first place.
The insane odds and pointless killing are all a part of the fun. That's the point.
You reliably put out some of the best content on RUclips, at least in my opinion. I didn't know that the things I have to go right are called critical success factors. I just call them things that have to go right. You have a good way of calculating overall success rate too. Good work here.
Thanks, I learned calculating success from studying game theory / probability when I was into online poker back when it was booming.
@@DespotofAntrim nice. That's a novel application of the concept. I really enjoyed your presentation.
Also, according to the dialog, the Joker had to hire the crew members without them seeing his face. How did he do this? Over the phone?
In Gotham city criminals for hire are a dime a dozen and you can look them up in the phone book 😂
Damaging the bus is almost absolutely certain.
The bus could also suffer tyre/engine damage from crashing through the wall (a presumably brick/stone wall which it somehow drives through)
I can’t believe I’m found you this early in your RUclips career Ives been watching all your videos for 2 days now laughing uncontrollably. Thanks from LA. I’m surrounded by these idiots and I’ll be using some of the stuff you’ve said to them. Thank you keep going
Thanks Chinley. I'm glad you are finding the content useful.
It'll all boils down to "how come none of the drivers in the bus row seems to be surprised that one of them just came out of a frigging bank leaving a trail of debris behind it"? "Oh yeah, that's gotta be Joe, he's always crashing into government buildings, lol."
also why police came when one of the robbers disabled all alarms....
Nevermind that the bus rammed through a bank wall and yet shows no damage, not even scratches to the paint, and is able to blend in with busses that did not just ram through a bank wall.
Never mind that. What if the bus didn’t crash through the wall properly or the guy simply dodged it? Would he have shot Joker then?
17:00 - Or someone sees them grappling across!
I guess the Joker could have hired the other school buses; but that's more vehicles and more people!
Spot on assessment!
Knowing he was going to burn the money, he could have just torched it in the vault!
Though come on, be fair... haven't we all gotten money out the hole in the wall before!! >XD
Edit: I only just noticed the Ocean's 11 music in the background; Nice ref, an even more ridiculous heist!
To this day that bus scene makes zero fucking sense to me. Was his bus part of the conga line of buses? Did he have prior knowledge to a conga line of buses, so decided to steal a bus, crash it into the bank, and wait for the exact moment there was an opening in the line to merge with it? Why were all the buses all two feet apart except for the one he needed to merge with? How did no see, react, or report a fucking bus backed into a bank with gunshots in the background?
No matter which way you interpret that scene, nothing about it makes a lick of fucking sense and the odds of any possibility playing out is astronomical. Nolan pulls shit like this quite a bit in his movies and I really wish it would get called out more often. Suspension of disbelief can only do so much...
A couple of years ago, I watched another RUclips Creator give an almost identical opinion about Bane's helicopter heist in the sequel.
He analyzes the job in detail, and outlines where this intricate plan - executed while the chopper is in flight - could go wrong at any time
Despot of Antrim always comes thru 🤙🏻
The alarmguy getting hit by a lightning sounded completely reasonable out of your mouth.
Even tough the scene watches great I always tought "Are all the school buses drivers set, or what the heck?" hahahaha. It adds another layer of possible snitches haha
There is a 100% chance that all the other school bus drivers notice a stray bus drive out of a building and think its going to "blend in" with them.
They all have radios and all talk to each other all the time.
Based, honest Kanye.
I hope he runs.
The last 3 minutes of this video is comedy genius. I could barely breathe after it
I've also thought about many of the same issues with the scene you pointed out, my take is that The Joker has a similar power to Domino from Deadpool 2 (and Marvel Comics) - some sort of reality alteration field around him that insanely boosts his luck and makes events that normally have a 0.000001% chance of success be given a near 100% chance. It also makes him practically impossible to kill, which is why Batman manages to save him at the end of the film when Joker falls down seemingly too quickly for Batman's grappling hook to catch him. Perhaps it only works if the Joker's life is in danger, which is why the Prisoner's Dilemma with the two ships scheme ended up failing, because the Joker's life wasn't directly in danger (or perhaps if one or both ships did end up detonating it would have somehow led to Joker dying, which is why it ended up failing to prevent Joker's death from happening)
The most unrealistic part is that physically cash is a poor transfer of wealth rich people don't use cash lol
Nice and fun video!
I feel like it's typical of Nolan movies to be very susceptible to fridge logic like this. It's so often clear that he has no clue about the subject matter
my guy sounds like he self projects his frustrations on to other people he makes up lol
Not to mention school bus drivers all have CB radios and would immediately start asking the other drivers in the line who is driving that one random bus covered in dust who just barged into the school convoy.
The only way to be called a genius
Is by doing something stupid
That's the point though, ain't it? That he's a agent of chaos and not a meticulous planner? That's, like, the idea of the Joker? He "just want to see the world burn"? Hell, I don't think he'd give a crap if the bank heist would have "failed" as long as it caused sufficient collateral damage.
Very true. It appears to be genius because it's intricate with many interlocking parts.
But that's the exact reason why it's such a shitty plan.
Your videos are always great.
BUT…
This one time you missed the point:
The Joker doesn’t care if this plan works or not.
He “just does things”, meaning he enjoys the “sport” of it all.
If this plan to goad the mob works, great!
If not, surely he has several other equally insane cartoony schemes up his purple sleeve..!
As a former armed robber (i went to prison already so no reason to call the cops, lol) i concur. Fun to watch but not realistic in any way.
What went wrong for you to get caught
It would have been fittingly funny if the joker had basically abandoned all of these guys to the police knowing that it was a deliberately bad plan instead of killing them because even one of those bags of money is going to have hundreds of thousands of dollars that he needs for the start-up of his little Enterprise
Nicholson's mime posse had a better probability of success...
Kanye West has better odds of becoming United States Of America President? I knew the Jokers plan was bad but i didn't think it was that bad.
Don't count Ye out yet.
It was never about the heist or the money.
This is why I have never really enjoyed the Dark Knight- way, too, convoluted!
And speaking of awesome heist films- Heat 1995
I'll have to watch that. Thanks!
@@DespotofAntrim You've never seen Heat? Oh laddie you are in for a treat.
YT decided not to notify me of your new video for some reason...
If it hasn't been mentioned the bus must leave when the other busses are driving by. Plot conveniences are awesome.
If they wanted gritty and down-to-Earth, they could have done a two part TV special adapting the Dumpster-Slasher storyline which directly addressed how Batman's methods could lead to a person for whom there is a decent amount of evidence proving their guilt to get away on a technicality and how a regular vigilante can do what Batman is simply not willing to do.
Ok, it’s not just me that thought the same thing about this scene. I mean, above all else, why wouldn’t any of the other bus drivers say anything about a random bus popping out of a building like that.
I had no idea someone considered the bank heist to be ingenious.
You missed the biggest issue:
The zip line people blow a window and that throws glass onto the ground. It’s a very busy metropolis and there is 100% going to be someone on the ground who will be hit, look up and see some shady shit, call the cops and tell them some shit is happening on that street (which the cops will soon see is right next to a massive bank). Less than a quarter into the heist the cops would have shown up and stopped them all.
the difference between these two heists?
Batman. one of them is a realistic thriller, the other is a comic book adaption.
also. the Shepard Tone in Zimmer's OST is a tension multiplier. it builds in a linear relentless fashion that drags you into the tension. Among The Pines.. is shot entirely differently & doesn't have the same ominous tone.
your point tho, that the Joker heist is random nonsense, stands. it doesn't make a lick of sense. pretty much like any scene in TDK. but the way it's shot & sound boarded makes you ignore those holes.
also.. good to see a Norn Irn lad doing the video essay stuff 😉
Oh aye.
Great video, so much fun. Did you ever see Inside Man? What did you think of that plan?
Yes, good movie, though the Nazi banker sub-plot was crap. I don't think it would work, once a reward is offered after the job, someone from the crew would give the guy in the bank up. It would be a prisoner's dilemma 'I can wait for someone else to snitch and go to jail, or I can snitch, get paid and stay free.' Not a chance that crew stays quiet for more than a couple of days, never mind a month.
Lol the bus get away is the stupidest getaway plan ever. He would be caught in literally 26 seconds. First off a bus could never drive through a bank wall. I hate Christopher Nolan.
There's a reason why I hold that the Joker is a metahuman with some vaguely defined precognitive or probability bending power.
Thanks for this. Great analysis.
Glad you liked it!
Fucking brilliant video. The scene is great for the atmosphere, undoubtedly. But it's dumb as hell.
You added in a million factors for jokers crew that you didn't for the pines any gun can jam or backfire
Always wondered why they would give them grenades and why the hostages didn't just throw the grenades back at them 😅
Wow a fictional movie has an inaccurate bank scene?!
21 bridges also had a likely scenario of a real bank robbery
You're assuming the Joker cares about whether the bank heist succeeds.
"Do I really look like a guy with a plan?"