There is probably no way they can pause the game everywhere. There is ultumatum pause and shaper pause but I'd imagine there are some technical limitations in a lot of places in the game. That said I really like your idea(s) and would love to see trade improved of course. Thanks for the effort and putting this out there.
The issue with those pauses is that it’s server related and not client related. PoE isn’t client-side authoritative because that would allow people’s engine to send the interactions to GGG’s servers instead of the other way. Someone could have their client send messages to the server saying they have MS up all the time & all flasks from their client and force the server to accept that.
I'm always very skeptical of claims that a game can't be paused. Everything, and I mean everything in a computer runs on timers and counters. To pause anything you simply stop the timer or iterating on your counters. When a designer says it can't be done they're just saying they are too lazy to implement it, and depending on how poorly they designed their game it could be a lot of work to do it. But it is certainly not impossible.
@@whorhaydelfuego7190 it is really hard and it would be bad for the game 1.imagine someone getting requests every 5 minutes, it would be annoying to being forced to pause 2.it would cause many bugs as they have to implement pause everywhere 3.multiplayer/group gameplay would be a dissaster everyone stops => random pauses every single minute 1 person stops => players get to abuse time based mechanics and i am sure there would be more problems that i cant think at the moment but it would be really hard with a lot of game braking problems at realise
I would add another feature - if trade is canceled, delist the item being sold. Positive to live players - you won't get tens or hundreds of trade requests for same item. And would add more work for price fixers, so it would help on that front too.
Seems like it could work. I don't see any glaring issues except that Chris will probably hate it (just from his comments about always wanting to make everything harder). I appreciate that you understand the dangers of an auction house. It bothers me that so many give the downsides so little consideration. I'm a random guy on youtube, and I approve this message. 👍 My idea, which could be implemented to start dealing with price fixing is: Have a counter for how many times the whisper button has been pressed for this item. Have a setting that allows you to block any listings with too many clicks. It'd also help with the mega spam in currency trading. "Oh, there are 27 people that whispered this guy before me, I'm gonna look for another one."
Showing the counter on how many 'Observers' or 'Whisperers' an item had would be nice. Unfortunately I think ppl would adjust to this very quickly and just relist everything every X hours, I could be wrong about that tho.. would be nice to see how that plays out
I generally like the proposed trade improvements but there is a big issue with pausing the game like ultimatum while trading (imagine situations like many people are mapping in a party and the game should pause for everybody no matter where they are in the map). Other than the ultimatum pause tech i really dig it.
I really wish that Chris understood the difference between difficulty and enjoyability. He doesn't, and that's going to continue to cause this game to get worse and worse.
He hates it because he is convinced that what is called trading in the game is a social player interaction in his point of view. i personally click on the macro text and obviously as i get the same standard text back my trade partners use this as well. There is NO social interaction in like 99.9% of all trades. I think i usually spend the first 5 - 7 weeks of a league in this game and in total maybe i get like 3 short conversations at all and this is due to some people try to haggle. That´s all interaction. And i usually want items to be bought at the priced value, thats why i price them! Trade is some clicks and that is all, it is just clicking on the right buttons. And dont even mention how you have just ONE thing in mind, EVERY single trade: PENTA check everything to NOt get scammed. I hate trade, it is pure pressure, scam attempts everywhere. And Bots e.g. are tolerated by GGG as well, those are no players ... Chris, WHERE is any social player interaction within this trade system? It is just an ultra old mechanic they do not want to put work into to bring it to current standards.
It's awesome that not only did you address some of the core problems currently prevalent within the trade system, but that you also provided tangible solutions that align with the current design philosophy of the game. Solid video.
Man love you videos, I wish I knew about them years ago but at the same time it’s a treat finding them now and having an incredible backlog of content to watch
i would also add another function to the "trade buttons" is Delist... if you are getting spammed by a person or people to buy something its usually well underpriced, the delist button can put the sale of that item on hold
Really, since there has been a transaction and the server knows the item has been sold, it should not pass more requests through to the seller once the item has sold.. it's entirely fixable with some pretty simple code IMHO.
@@cliffearl7483 im on about the time when you accidently list a 10ex item for 10c and you dont realize untill you are getting spammed with pms but you are in a blight encounter or something else where you cant pause so you cant go back to the hideout and change it
The solution you suggest has an extra advantage: it has solution to Price Fixing practically built-in. A Price-fixer will get offers, and not reply to them (ignore or reject them). In your scenario, when the Price-fixer rejects an offer, their item can automatically go off the market. As a bonus you can disallow for the item to be re-listed for X amount of time (or at least not at the price previously given)
Further trade problems: Timezones. I live in Australia, and I would estimate my income is 5-10x on Saturday morning (peak US timezone) compared to a weeknight.
I started playing PoE on console, and played from 3.8-3.10 on console, finally switching to PC 3.11. So long as I'm not remembering incorrectly, what you described is almost exactly how trade is handled on console. The search functions on console were god awful, but the actual transactions were very smooth, no need for a group, and pretty much right in line with what you described here. If we could have the search functionality of the official trade website, with the actual transaction process of console PoE, I feel like that'd be the best of both worlds.
A few other ideas I've been thinking about with trading: 1.) Add a Currency Counter to the trade screen so you can really make sure you're getting your 507 chaos orbs for your 3x exalted orbs at a quick glance, or that you're really getting a fair value for partial items (EX: Claws for 1.5EX = 1EX and 85 chaos) 2.) Allow trading in your own hideouts. Once you send the POE trade link whisper you both have time to dig through your stash for your items and currencies and enter the same trade in screen when you're both ready. Not only does this eliminate the whole 'party invite' and hideout hopping (pointless). The official trade link cannot be edited so you know the person is buying the item for what you listed and not tamper with the whisper copy. (EX: 487 chaos for 3 exalted instead of you really listing it for 507 chaos). Sometimes we just believe people too easily or too lazy verifying the math.
would maybe be rough for verifying currency exchange since its something that changes constantly throughout the day and the league. i can see people forcibly lowering exchange rate of chaos/ex temporarily then do their trades with lower rates then remove their sells afterwards to bounce back the normal rates.
Man I can tell you come from software development and planning out requirements and designs! Really good well presented idea. GGG should hire you as a product owner :)
First time I've seen someone provide a solution that would address many QoL issues without being essentially an auctionhouse, I love the idea of the non-interactable trade window!
This exact idea of cross instance trading has been floating around on both the official forum and Reddit for years now, at least as long as I've been playing (Legacy League). If GGG wanted to implement something like this they absolutely would have by now.
I like the idea! I think a good first step is not having to go to someone's hideout / same area as them to even trade. I think if its possible they should allow us to send a trade request by just clicking on someone's name in the chat box. So... it would be like you whisper for an item and then get the trade request from them without having to join a party or hideout.
Hi, could you also fix that people don't buy my stuff whenever I am playing, but as soon as I need to go on the Toilette for 5 mins they spam me with trades? :D
This is a good idea. I also liked the idea of having a shop stash that's public in your hideout where your stuff is for sale, when someone invited you to group they can visit and purchase from your stash shop. For you the stash would he just like your Public stash tab. For person buying, it looks like npc shop window.
Something that I would love to be implemented is a way to quickly any item found under the bulk item exchange. The idea that comes to mind is the from Diablo 3 in the early auction house days, where the way you sold gems was very simple. You just put the gems up, the price was automatically figured out for you, and if they sold you got the currency. I believe WoW tokens work in basically the same way. The price is determined automatically and you just get what the current market price is. I can’t even imagine how much time this would save when buying things like fossils or scarabs.
Isn't the huge problem with that idea that there is basically no currency in PoE, but only crafting materials or map modifiers that we value a certain way? Either they'd have to relate everything to chaos, or introduce some sort of neutral currency that you'd only use to trade. Somehow. :,)
I did market PVP in EVE Online, a game with frictionless trading. Market manipulation was very different to what most people think - you didn't create a supply crisis by buying up all of an item (this almost always lost money), you anticipated demand increases, then bought up items in anticipation. Example of what market manipulation would look like in POE - you buy 374 copies of a very rare unique like Garukhan's Flight or Arakali's Fang or Garb of the Ephemeral - then either publish a build guide (if you have the reach) using that item, or reach out to a content creator with a build idea. Very different to the whole 'I buy all the Atziri's Step and relist higher' - this didn't work in EVE with massive scale item destruction, it certainly won't work here. On the timer suggestion around 10:38 - here's how I'd get around that. Make a couple dozen accounts all in one guild. Each guild member has their own time limit. This suggestion imposes friction that is limited solely to people without many accounts. Really what you need, IMO, is a delay on receiving proceeds of sales. That stops quick re-investment. If I sell an Arakali's Fang for 2 exalts (or whatever fair price is on that day), you should get the Fang immediately - but I should have to wait a meaningful time to get my exalts. This would stop a lot of the shenanigans I pulled in EVE. Any significant friction reduction will increase the relative market power of wealthy players at the expense of the less wealthy.
PoE is my favorite game, having started since open beta, and I've always hated its trade. For everything that has improved over the years, trading has stayed the same tedious chore it's always been. I saw a little bit of how trading on PS4/PS5 version of PoE works, and while not perfect I wish we got that as an option on PC. Really good, reasonable solutions in this video. I hope GGG can implement some of these for PoE 2 or somewhere down the line. As a sidenote, I'm new to the channel. I came back from a few years break on PoE (can't play games on kb+m anymore; gamepad support A++). I've watched a lot of your guides already to catch up on content I've missed. Great guides. Good, clear speaking voice. I gave a sub a while ago, please keep up the lovely content 👍
some tiny change that would already make a big difference is being able to see how many of a certain currency are in the trade window instead of having to count them and potentially glance over things like there only being 1 chaos instead of 10 etc
using this system a good way to get rid of the price fixers is if you refuse the trade the item listing gets removed and the item gets a cooldown of like 10-15minutes. And a problem with the proposed system is that people sell items for decimal currency so we'd need to have acess to exalted shards or chaos shards on the go to make those trades, that means we'd need a way to split exalted/chaos to shards
@@Yomush how is that not a good idea? they reject the trade because thats not the price they want, the item gets removed from listing they will then re-pricecheck and put it at a correct price after the CD
@@IDarKTugaI Punishing people for not knowing the economy with arbitrary cooldowns will make the system even more furstrating than it already is. Bots will find a bypass anyway and legitimate people will be put on cooldown which helps nobody
We might still need the old way or an edition to this strategy for a specific scenario. Buyer messages asking for x item, asks hey do you have the rest of the set, or other t10 maps, etc. If you do, it would be nice to manually make a trade with those items and the agreed upon price to the player. The other option would be to have player store profiles where they can go to your “shop” and select all the t10 maps and it makes like a cart, and then they send a message.
I think the most important factor with any trade changes is to make sure it fix into existing trade infrastructure. Personally, I have been a fan of just letting people buy items out of my public stash. Still need to whisper and invite to party, and go to my hideout. But instead of me leaving my map, they could go to my box and buy items for the asking price.
They could have a trade shop vendor that people could NPC load in their hideout. This NPC can handle trades 24/7 and could even be populated with oldest items only. Offer right click menu's that can flag items for reporting scammers/fixers. Automatically removes it from the traders inventory (essentially replaces the bad item with a new one from the list)
Another point regarding the Ultimatum-like pausing: When introducing the Sentinel mechanic they mentioned it is deactivated in certain areas of he game first of due to balancing, but also because of technical issues, so i would believe they have some sort of check that knows when you are in such an area. They could use such a check for stuff like Lab or Endgame Bosses, so instead of you feeling pressured to answer the trade or getting frozen in time inside a Boss fight, the person whispering you for the trade first gets an instant message saying something like "This Player is currently in a dangerous situation, please wait" or maybe even telling them the exact Boss thats being fought so when you get the message someone is fighting Uber-Sirus you know that this person definitely wont reply right now.
I already really appreciated the content for FR build but this one video is insane, huge props for this proposal. this is a like and sub material here.
As someone who barely trades, if at all (in terms of selling potential valuable items I find) due to getting very easily stressed by just the idea of randomly getting a whisper, having to not be a bother by being slow to respond, invite the person, leave whatever content I am currently doing or worst case having to ask them to wait until I am done, go back to my hideout, look back at the message to figure out what item they requested to buy and see which tab I have it in, scroll through my tabs to find the correct one and then again pick out the item by searching for the name or part of it which I obviously already forgot and have to look back at the message again to figure out, then finally request to trade or accept his trade request if he or she has gotten impatient by now, THEN I finally run into the risk of there being some kind of misunderstanding price-wise or the person trying to scam me by putting in weird or wrong stack sizes of currency which I th.. My mind just melts and becomes overwhelmed by just thinking (or overthinking) about the process of selling just one single item. I don't mind trading that much when it comes to me buying something with my own currency or trading up in terms of currency value, but selling? Nah. I remember selling an Inspired Learning back in Scourge league but that was it, and mostly just because I knew it would yeet itself. Sorry to whomever actually read the mess above or even a fraction of it, but what I would love to see is a new Stash, a Trade Stash kind of like my own personal shop where you start with one premium stash tab and a currency stash tab. You can put items into the premium tab and it works exactly like you think it would. People can search on poe trade and find items you have in there just like they otherwise would. If and when they whisper you to buy an item you have in there all you have to do is invite them, they go to your hideout and look in your Trade Stash or shop or w/e, find the item they want and pull it out kind of like with the Guild Stash only with the price tag added, which then whatever amount of currency that might be gets pulled from their inventory and goes into your Trade Stash currency tab. I imagine still needing to have the required currency in your inventory and when you click on an item in the Trade Stash that you want to buy a new window pops up where you then pour the currency into, and if the amount you put in matches with the price tag of the item the trade goes green and you can click 'trade' to buy it. This would just be an addition to regular trading, would REALLY help with the buying of small-change items (1 alch stuff) at least Mud Flats Hero to Mud Flats Hero, and would on average save you from some bother and pain and otherwise completely save me and my soul from eternal non-trade purgatory. If they want or don't want to add the option to buy additional tabs for the Trade Stash I could not care less, one tab is all I need to actually be able to do something and would still trade for other peoples items just like I am already doing. I would think that adding the option to buy more tabs would quickly kill the old method of trade and takeover almost completely which I understand they might not want at all, but just one tab, maybe even a smaller one than what we know today? It's probably a silly idea or something Chris straight up just don't want, but I don't care. I don't CARE, Wilson. PLEASE SEND HELP
thats amazing, GG please do implement this. I'm mostly concerned with the feasibility of pausing at that volume but the rest is a simple database transaction.
To prevent messages from being changed before being sent could be used asymmetric encryption, when you click the copy message button you get the encrypted message, when the message reaches the server it's decrypted, and sent to the item owner which will see your interface containing the interaction buttons. If a message is sent without the encryption, the trade interaction buttons wont show in chat.
Your proposal is quite good. In Eve online there is this escrow system. Items are placed to be sold and bought via escrow offers whic are global trade deals that allready contain the item inside it. Then the buyer gets exactly what hes buying and he can only pay the asked amount to receive the goods. It would nor work for buy offers but one could still do buy offers for currency items. Naturally escrow cannot be the only method for trading or it has to have counter offer functionality built into it.
The only thing added to this I'd like to see, is a block when you're doing high tier bossing. Ubers and Maven and Sirius, stuff like that. Even with pausing it in the middle of the fight would probably ruin the flow, so if you're in a boss fight and they whisper you, it'll automatically tell them you're in a boss fight and to give it a bit of time, or you can reply when you're done with the similar trade offer. And I think being able to toggle this stuff on and off would be nice.
Oh, this also provides an interesting blow to price-fixers, you can temporarily lock out items from appearing on the trade site if they decline several times in a row. It can actually be beneficial to non-pricefixers, removing spams for an underpriced item before they get back to their stash (like if a harvest craft hits) and shuting down busy trade items when afk or in content you don't want to pause (the worst rituals can't handle the millisecond of lag between a trade window closing and your attacks resuming)
The overall premise is great but I think we should have a separate Trade tab tied to Inventory, like to the right of Cosmetic or even move the Inventory title up and place the Trade tab below it. And in there we'd have X amount of slots for setting static prices or even a price range where a buyer could use a slider to make their offer ala Tujen style. This tab could also have a separate "wallet" where buyers can transfer the currency their willing to use. This way when that non-interactable window opens it removes the need for the backend to even access your actual inventory. Hope my ranting made some sense, lol.
Cool idea. Perhaps one potential approach to price fixers in this world is that if you decline a trade as the seller, the item gets unlisted and you have to set the price again. Only a small amount of inconvenience but it would be very easy for GGG to detect someone declining and relisting the item over and over.
So, if I whisper you to buy your item, and you're doing an activity where you can't respond, your item gets delisted? Price fixers will never (that I've encountered) issue a party invite, they just ignore you.
@@fang_xianfu Are you referring to the part where he talks about using Ultimatum style pause when you get a trade offer? That's certainly not easily abusable... How long after implementation before there are scripts that bot-spam every item cheaper than yours to delist them? Any system can be abused, but we probably want something that takes a dumb-dumb like me more than 30 seconds to find a way to abuse.
I think doing a semi AH is more doable, imagine an AH but when you try to purchase an item it will pop a accept/refuse button on the seller's screen, the buyer needs to put in the currency into the AH, and if the trade is accepted the currency will be transferred to seller's stash if declined the item will be removed from the AH and into a different non-selling stash to prevent more spamming if you mispriced it.
if item is listed for 5ex and someone puts 5ex in AH window, trade happens automaticly without even asking seller. I mean why would someone put item for sale and after dont sell?? unless seller is price fixer.Automatic sale will wipe out all price fixers instantly. I dont understand whats the downside of this??
@@rainzhang4229 Newer played d3.And Idgaf what its like, I just can't stand current poe trade with fkn whispering 50 times to buy your fossil. Now there is even bulk buy price fixers, that has shit up for sale but never accepts trades. It cant stay the way it is.
@@rainzhang4229 price fixers are reason for 99% of mispricings. There is simple solution for that. Whisper option can still be awailable with option to agree on prices. But if u put stuff for sale with fixed price, I dont see why wouldnt I be able to buy it for that price. When u go to shop, u get to pay the price it was listed on shelf. Cashiers dont get to make prices up at checkouts. Whats the big deal?
Love this, only "iffy" thing is the "public tab" part, that requires people to spend money one way or another, but on the other hand, that also shows that people are in it seriously, instead of it being bots and scammers on the F2P side of the game. :) love this!
Instead of the trade window, it should be a small notification (just like party invites) on the right side of the screen, that you can still see the itens and currencies, and you can accept/decline
Dude this is an awesome idea, really hope GGG look into it and seek you to implement that, or at least something similar!, great video and great work, best regards.
The issue with price fixers and scammers can be easily fixed using the commodity market where someone can place the item and it can be bought by someone else without personal interraction with seller, the only single obstruction is the way of the monetization of the GGG. They sell public tabs that are necessary if you want to trade.
I really like this idea, and there are many possibilities to play with the cooldown both as a measure against price fixers (exponentially increasing penalties for every refused / ignored trade after a few "free" ones for legit afk users / unintentionally underpriced items) and to match GGG's idea of what is "too fast" trade progression. Another idea if they can make it use the pause function: Have the other player's character hover next to the trade window as a slightly zoomed in avatar, so you can see who is making you the offer. That way we get to see other people's MTX (and maybe get interested in buying some) even if we don't meet them in their hideout. Would probably even get a better view of them that way than with a regular trade.
This is a fucking great idea, dude, both of them. Sometimes when the waypoint is too far from the map device in some hideouts you don't even see the other player ur trading with, so no point of even going there to have "player interaction", ur ideia kinda fixes and it and also let's you flex if you got some nice mtx effects.
5:56 I LOVE that idea. I love the entire mechanic. Provides a bit more security than what I was thinking. It would actually allow for the casual player to make more currency as well. Although, I'd love it even more if there was a way where you can get trades while offline and you have to accept or decline as soon as you come online.
solution to price fixing seems pretty simple from my pov, if someone ignores or declines too many times (say 5 or 10 times), their item is automatically unlisted
how about only automate trade in raw exalts in the trade site. you load up your automated stash tab with exalts and lock it, 5 mins later they become active in the trade site and your items you purchased are waiting for you in remove only tabs. listing items would work just as is but in a special trade tab that will remove each item once purchased.
Yo creo que si que hay una forma de fixear esto. Los que hayan jugado Wakfu, Metin2 , Dofus, entenderán el sistema. En estos juegos , tu cuando querías tradear, cogías y ponías en una de las ciudades un sitio para tradear , en Wakfu(una bolsita) , en Metin2 (una mesita ),etc. Dentro de este sitio podías poner el item y precio, los jugadores cuando clicaban en tu bolsita , podían mirar que tienes en venta y los precios, cuando le daba a comprar le restaba al comprador la cantidad fijada por vendedor , del inventario de comprador. Si tuviera que implementar esto a POE, haría un cofre dentro del hideout de los jugadores al que pudieran acceder la gente que te whispea por un item. Tendíamos el mismo sistema, el jugador viene a tu hideout , va al sitio donde tu estas vendiendo , compra y se va. Para mi esto mataría dos pájaros de un tiro, ya que , además, el jugador que se encuentra en DELVE o el jugador que no quiere perder un portal de su mapa, no tendria que necesariamente salir para poder efectuar la venta. ¿Qué tan difícil es implementar esto en el juego?
haven't heard a proposal yet, but imagine if you can have stash, where you put goods with price (just like now), but instead of trading with person, you can just visit their hideout and take it from chest and pay currency
I had some similar thoughts: imagine adding some sort of unique id to each item (probably already exist). You just copy that id from the trade website and paste it into some trade window with a new NPC. It automatically takes the currency out of your currency tab (it can already do that for the crafting station). I don't think this confirmation is necessary, this is more for passive trades like currency and low value items in my opinion. There could also be a fee for trading, possibly based on the value of the trade to make this bad for high frequency trades or high value trades. This could be done as a league mechanic for testing.
Quick trading tip as I've read a lot of complaints about currency trading is to sell your currency for what you want to buy. If you want regrets, take 10 chaos and list the. For 20 regrets. You'll usually get a response within 5 minutes and you also get a much better rate compared to buying it.
I am hypercritical of most suggestions for "fixing" PoE's trade system by backseat designers; 99% of them (auction house, especially) are made by people with no clue how complicated an economy like PoE is and how devastating that would be to the normal player. This is maybe the first suggestion that I think would actually be a viable improvement to the system (although I still don't see instance pausing making it in for this - GGG would probably want to come up with something else for that). Excellent work, subtractem. Keep it up.
@@alexclaton ahaha yeah, that's probably why after removing rmah blizzard realized that this portion of ah was only a part of the problem and not that much time later they decided to scrap it altogether. Why do you think they deleted it if ppl only had problems with rmah only? You are either disingenous or ignorant. I remember watching some video about the fall of d3's ah and most of people in comments were very fond of ah because... it let them earn some real money in a video game, its hilarious looking back when i remember everyone fucking hated ah in d3 now out of a sudden it turns out people love auction houses, where were they when d3 ah was getting deleted.
I would be happy with an auto-shop option. Set this option in the tab, and everything you add there can be auto picked from your stash. So, you go to the trade site, and these items in these tabs have an additional button: "insta buy". Click that and your currency is removed and the item is stored in your stashes (could even be "remove-only" stash if inventory space is an issue) That would fix my 99% issues with the trade system. Also, it would provide a more stable economy since the items would always be listed, so no "don't trade in the night because its more expensive" or "get currency on week days, spend on weekends" type of stuff.
They could even sell the special trade tab as an MTX and make money from it to help pay for the development. I know I would not have a problem with that at all. Just fucking make some changes because what they have right now is fucked.
I really like how you present the problem of trade and all the workarounds you provided on the video! I hope GGG use some of the solutions you gave, at least as a kickstart. Trading right now is not funny, what keeps me in the game is that Tujen does not ignore me :V
My only issue is that this requires you to have a public currency tab. The selling side is already restricted to people who have purchased a premium stash tab; I don't think we should be making trade almost exclusively pay-gated.
This is definitely a good start for an idea to solve a lot of issues. As a more casual player I don't often deal with a lot of low price items because of the hassle. I would also like to see something for offline trading, or a trading client, where it runs a much more basic version so that you can play something else while you work on trying to buy or sell stuff.
Just being able to have price set on item and the game verifies the exact currency is being traded instead of both player's having to manually count would be a huge improvement. The lack of whisper response is also an interesting problem. Perhaps the game could detect what is an official trade whisper and be able to auto-reply to interested buyer that the seller is currently running content so please be patient. Seller is offered some chat macros buttons like "interested...brb" Perhaps in addition to chat there can be a little trade notification area that has a queue of trade requests to easily get back to interested buyers once the seller has a free moment to complete the trade.
My idea to fix this was actually that trade tabs for liek vending machines. You check the website and if items are in your trade tab ppl can visit your hideout and basically do a vendor trade but with your stash they get the item and the currency gets put directly in a seperate tab you can withdraw from
Thanks for the video. Frankly, it seems like any change would be an improvement, currently the trade is an enormous pain.. I would like something similar to the Albion Online trade system.
100% with you on that. Trading is really the thing that I hate most to do in this game, it's also what kills my mood, my productivity and my will to continue playing whenever I have to buy something, and I gotta go through 40 people before I can get the trade done. Horrible experience, absolutely despise it.
Only way to fix price fixing (at least low balling the price with no intent to sell) is to ensure if it is listed it has to be able to be bought - solve this and you also solve the no reply issue since it must be able to be bought but then you are heading into auction house territory.
Smaller scale fixing like you outline in the 4th minute is a different issue, but the people who manipulated Simulacrums in 3.17 week 2 could quite justifiably be banned under TOS part 22 and really should be. Not willing to provide info on how they did it, but it leaves a massive, massive mark in the trade API (and slows the trade API for everyone) If GGG banned a couple dozen long term accounts with dozens of mirrors for the worst cases of price fixing, and ANNOUNCE that fact - you'd see a lot of the price fixers that don't attack the trade API scared away.
I love the idea for this, but it is essentially the Console trade board that already exists and GGG has already said that they don't want to combine that with the trade website because of what it would do to the economy. They originally planned on allowing for the trade web site to work for console and scrapped that plan because of exactly that reason.
As a software developer i'm SURE they can and maybe they already have done something like the mtx ingame store using the trade site data as a fully functioning auctionhouse, using the same rule of take the item and currency from the respective premium tabs from seller and buyer
Price fixing solution: Using your official buttons approach, after some number of people ping somebody for an item and no trade is realized, block the seller from selling that item for a day :) For currency, block the seller from selling that type of currency for a day.
In the trade database, there can be a counter for trade requests which could be updated in an eventually consistent manner (at some point, the count will represent the number of passed trade requests). Of course give the item 5-10 minutes to sell and don't block it after the initial spam from buyers. I am not sure how divine orbs react with item ids but they should not change the trade identity of the item or this will be exploitable.
@@krismoose124 "block the seller from selling that item" - hiding the item from trade is one way of doing that, yes, but it should be visible to the seller what the problem was. We should not assume malice if the trader does not respond to trades (or negatively respond) for a particular item. Maybe he is for some reason unable to trade or something. It should be visible that a mistake was made in the way some item was marketed by the seller so the "good" sellers either use DND when they do not want to trade or just fix their trade attitude with the next item they sell.
That's kind of what i was thinking for my entire time playing at PoE, something just like MU online handle their char stores stash but of course with those additions that you just mentioned here with a pause screen like ultimatum, clever solution! hoping GGG take a look at it!
A handle for Price Fixers. In the trade API just consolidate the same item being listed by the same person, instead of allowing them to be listed individually. (if they are selling the item for the same price it would just show 1 listing, but showing they are selling 20 of them. Similar to how it does with currency.)
This is my minimalist plan to deal with scammers. It requires no additional server transactions. On the trade website, generate a transaction hash based on the items and currency. Items are inherently serializable to strings which makes this trivial. Allow a player to paste a transaction hash from the trade site into a box in the trade window. If the player pastes a transaction hash into the trade window, disable the accept button in the trade window unless the transaction hash for the trade window matches the transaction hash pasted from the website. This could be streamlined even more, but I believe this simple system could more or less eliminate scams with almost no investment on GGG's part and minor effort on the part of traders.
For price fixing you could lock players from receiving a type of currency from a trade if they have that type of currency in their public stash and are selling it, the lockout could persist for some 10-20 minutes after the currency has been removed from the public stash.
I like that you mentionned several times that your (good) solution relies on assumptions about how easy or hard it would be to make without knowing their software. I worked as a backend developer in a big eCommerce company before with a big legacy solution to process payments. It was not user-friendly at all, both for customers (shops) and end-users using the actual payment pages etc. People had a lot of propositions on how to improve that over the years I worked there but they almost never got implemented because either A) the technical debt of that giant legacy piece of software didn't allow it or B) it was technically feasible but then it was a strategic decision to not spend weeks/months (and then money) to make them. What I want to say to most of people here (not you Subtractem because you know that) is that GGG 100% already thought about a ton of solutions probably close to that one, but they either have a too big of a technical debt to do it on the backend or they strategically don't want to spend the resource on it. That's how it works in software development.
there should be in map table you can access but only items move to a trade windows witch can be open while mapping without the other player/trader present.
Some of this would be great!!! GGG does not need to revamp the trade system but definitely needs to update some of it at this point. GJ hope GGG actually looks at this
I think one place to draw inspiration from should be steam trade requests. Basically they would send you the dm, you can click view offer, then once you check out the items, you can either accept their offer, counter offer, or cancel all together. I would love to hear your thoughts on this
I would have notifications saying trade and it tells you what it is and you can press a button, yes or no, ect to tell the other person to wait for you or to not bother with trade
The worst isn't getting to the trade and realizing you mis-priced it. The worst thing is when you invite them, they join, they show up in your hideout, you portal back, you find the item, you start the trade, and they cancel because one of the fifty other people they messaged first replied at a lower price.
They can brainstorm with the MercuryTrade developer. I would like to see something like that, a popup appears saying "xy wants to buy yx for xx" and instead of inviting you can just accept or decline. And i think you dont need to pause the instance. Set a timer to, lets say, 20 seconds after trage request. If you are afk or in a bossfight etc. it will just decline.
One problem with this system would be fractional currency. It's easy enough if you have, say, 10 ex shards to do a 7.5 ex trade. But currently that's not how most trades are done, since people most commonly use chaos orbs to roughly match that fractional part. How do you enforce that in the system? What ratio do you use? And how do you prevent people from manipulating that ratio to benefit from trades? One imperfect solution to that would be to add an option to convert full orbs to 20 shards, but then if you want to buy an item for 1.2 ex (without trading with currency flippers) you need to have 2 ex.
I think one way to stop price fixers is with three difrent mechanics. Firstly, any item or currency stak that has received more than 10 buy requests over 10 consecutive minutes and which has not been sold gets timed out for 30 days and can't be listed for sale again for 30 days. Say a person receives 100 requests in 1 minute, they all count as the one request for that one minute. The idea is so that if someone wants to fix their price if they underpriced an item they can, but if someone wants to just keep an item for sale just to scam people out of expensive items at low prices they can't. Second thing, no item that has been removed from sale for more that two minutes can be put out for sale for the next 30 days. This is both to stop scammers and price fixers from gaming the system and protect people who removed the item from a premium tab only to have the trade canceled on them. Third, no item that has been bought can be sold for the next 30 days, no amount of currency of a type that has been bought can be sold for the next 10 days. This will unfortunately have devastating effects on the crafting economy, thought it might be solved if crafted items get new item IDs or if recombinators are kept in game for the long term. The idea being that nobody can get a monopoly in any one item, they might be able to crash the price of an item one month into the league, but will see diminishing returns for the final month.
I think the way to solve most of those is to have the Chinese trading, where you have a trade bureau in your hideout and people trading come to it and put the money in it. It forces trades put in it, so you can't pricefix.
translation : "this guy is good, it's pretty difficult to find someone that proposes ideas instead of just whining. keep up the great work." I agree, subtractem is easily one of my favorite gamers!
As an Enterprise Architect, I can say that this is a fantastic proposal that hits concisely on business value, potential caveats, and a high-level architectural pattern that doesn't get too bogged down in the weeds. I sincerely hope that GGG/Tencent consider this.
Complete stop from ultimatum is good part and i would love to see that on trade in map. It will good fit to syndicate choose window aswell. Only one question, what about group play?
One time i was playing World of Warcraft. It was 14 years ago when Wrath of the Lich King was realesed. There was automated auction house. I listed some mining and herbalism mats, and when I woke up I opened an email with 1k gold. Preatty good experience. No scammers, no price fixers, no not replaying accounts. I loved it. Why it is not imposssible in 2022 in poe?
I definitely agree that fixing trade will lower the accessibility barrier for newbies. I remember not even knowing that trade was a thing, on my first league. And on my second league, unresponsive buyers didn't make a good first impression. Bots, though... Nowadays I even reply "ty" to bots because they're certainly doing a service to the community!
Biggest issue currently with trade in poe is the ammount of ppl trying to scam you so u always have to double check ur stash what price u actually have it up for etc
I like this approach, and totally agree that it could be implemented by GGG fairly easily (I also have a few decades of game dev behind me). I also had a concept for something that could be made right now, external to the game as a helper. A helper app that makes a hash of the item and requested price from the website, and validates this hash during the trade with a popup over the trade window, which would rehash the trade item stats and verify they match the saved one, then show a green or red border for example. This could also work from the seller's perspective, first to make it easier to find the actual item (when you have 10 flasks that are really similar but slightly different stats), and second to verify the currency is the same as the original agreement. Obviously, this is a lot less slick and would possibly require a bit of manual hotkey action from the trade window (similar to how prices are checked now), but it would help move the needle away from scams by quite a bit.
Something else I didn't hear you touch on that would be a HUGE benefit to this is another step in helping prevent RSI! Clicking a full inventory worth of fusings into a trade window multiple times already feels awful, so having it auto-fill would be an absolutely amazing boon.
Here’s a suggestion, it’s already done well on console. They have a board that looks similar to the trade site, and you can put in your payment then all the trader has to do is accept it once they are back in their hideout
Its so refreshing to see someone actually provide a possible solution to some issue they see. Keep killing it
There is probably no way they can pause the game everywhere. There is ultumatum pause and shaper pause but I'd imagine there are some technical limitations in a lot of places in the game. That said I really like your idea(s) and would love to see trade improved of course. Thanks for the effort and putting this out there.
The issue with those pauses is that it’s server related and not client related. PoE isn’t client-side authoritative because that would allow people’s engine to send the interactions to GGG’s servers instead of the other way. Someone could have their client send messages to the server saying they have MS up all the time & all flasks from their client and force the server to accept that.
I'm always very skeptical of claims that a game can't be paused. Everything, and I mean everything in a computer runs on timers and counters. To pause anything you simply stop the timer or iterating on your counters. When a designer says it can't be done they're just saying they are too lazy to implement it, and depending on how poorly they designed their game it could be a lot of work to do it. But it is certainly not impossible.
@@BlackSheepDream thats what he said...
Levitating businessman strikes again
@@whorhaydelfuego7190 it is really hard and it would be bad for the game
1.imagine someone getting requests every 5 minutes, it would be annoying to being forced to pause
2.it would cause many bugs as they have to implement pause everywhere
3.multiplayer/group gameplay would be a dissaster
everyone stops => random pauses every single minute
1 person stops => players get to abuse time based mechanics
and i am sure there would be more problems that i cant think at the moment but it would be really hard with a lot of game braking problems at realise
I would add another feature - if trade is canceled, delist the item being sold.
Positive to live players - you won't get tens or hundreds of trade requests for same item.
And would add more work for price fixers, so it would help on that front too.
This is actually an amazing addition to the idea.
What do you mean by trade is cancelled? They put the items out for sale and never reply to the whispers.
This is way better than my price fixer idea. Seems like it will work functionally
Agreed that would be great.
@@oLaudix It is in addition to the system were the seller gets a message and can either accpet or decline, not answering counts as declining.
Seems like it could work. I don't see any glaring issues except that Chris will probably hate it (just from his comments about always wanting to make everything harder). I appreciate that you understand the dangers of an auction house. It bothers me that so many give the downsides so little consideration.
I'm a random guy on youtube, and I approve this message. 👍
My idea, which could be implemented to start dealing with price fixing is: Have a counter for how many times the whisper button has been pressed for this item. Have a setting that allows you to block any listings with too many clicks. It'd also help with the mega spam in currency trading. "Oh, there are 27 people that whispered this guy before me, I'm gonna look for another one."
Showing the counter on how many 'Observers' or 'Whisperers' an item had would be nice.
Unfortunately I think ppl would adjust to this very quickly and just relist everything every X hours, I could be wrong about that tho.. would be nice to see how that plays out
I generally like the proposed trade improvements but there is a big issue with pausing the game like ultimatum while trading (imagine situations like many people are mapping in a party and the game should pause for everybody no matter where they are in the map). Other than the ultimatum pause tech i really dig it.
I really wish that Chris understood the difference between difficulty and enjoyability. He doesn't, and that's going to continue to cause this game to get worse and worse.
He hates it because he is convinced that what is called trading in the game is a social player interaction in his point of view. i personally click on the macro text and obviously as i get the same standard text back my trade partners use this as well. There is NO social interaction in like 99.9% of all trades. I think i usually spend the first 5 - 7 weeks of a league in this game and in total maybe i get like 3 short conversations at all and this is due to some people try to haggle. That´s all interaction. And i usually want items to be bought at the priced value, thats why i price them! Trade is some clicks and that is all, it is just clicking on the right buttons. And dont even mention how you have just ONE thing in mind, EVERY single trade: PENTA check everything to NOt get scammed. I hate trade, it is pure pressure, scam attempts everywhere. And Bots e.g. are tolerated by GGG as well, those are no players ... Chris, WHERE is any social player interaction within this trade system? It is just an ultra old mechanic they do not want to put work into to bring it to current standards.
It's awesome that not only did you address some of the core problems currently prevalent within the trade system, but that you also provided tangible solutions that align with the current design philosophy of the game. Solid video.
Man love you videos, I wish I knew about them years ago but at the same time it’s a treat finding them now and having an incredible backlog of content to watch
i would also add another function to the "trade buttons" is Delist... if you are getting spammed by a person or people to buy something its usually well underpriced, the delist button can put the sale of that item on hold
Really, since there has been a transaction and the server knows the item has been sold, it should not pass more requests through to the seller once the item has sold.. it's entirely fixable with some pretty simple code IMHO.
@@cliffearl7483 im on about the time when you accidently list a 10ex item for 10c and you dont realize untill you are getting spammed with pms but you are in a blight encounter or something else where you cant pause so you cant go back to the hideout and change it
Being able to click something and buy it is essential to remove price fixers.
This is it. Price fixers won't price fix when they can lose their items lol.
The solution you suggest has an extra advantage: it has solution to Price Fixing practically built-in.
A Price-fixer will get offers, and not reply to them (ignore or reject them). In your scenario, when the Price-fixer rejects an offer, their item can automatically go off the market.
As a bonus you can disallow for the item to be re-listed for X amount of time (or at least not at the price previously given)
Further trade problems: Timezones. I live in Australia, and I would estimate my income is 5-10x on Saturday morning (peak US timezone) compared to a weeknight.
I started playing PoE on console, and played from 3.8-3.10 on console, finally switching to PC 3.11. So long as I'm not remembering incorrectly, what you described is almost exactly how trade is handled on console. The search functions on console were god awful, but the actual transactions were very smooth, no need for a group, and pretty much right in line with what you described here.
If we could have the search functionality of the official trade website, with the actual transaction process of console PoE, I feel like that'd be the best of both worlds.
A few other ideas I've been thinking about with trading:
1.) Add a Currency Counter to the trade screen so you can really make sure you're getting your 507 chaos orbs for your 3x exalted orbs at a quick glance, or that you're really getting a fair value for partial items (EX: Claws for 1.5EX = 1EX and 85 chaos)
2.) Allow trading in your own hideouts. Once you send the POE trade link whisper you both have time to dig through your stash for your items and currencies and enter the same trade in screen when you're both ready. Not only does this eliminate the whole 'party invite' and hideout hopping (pointless). The official trade link cannot be edited so you know the person is buying the item for what you listed and not tamper with the whisper copy. (EX: 487 chaos for 3 exalted instead of you really listing it for 507 chaos). Sometimes we just believe people too easily or too lazy verifying the math.
would maybe be rough for verifying currency exchange since its something that changes constantly throughout the day and the league.
i can see people forcibly lowering exchange rate of chaos/ex temporarily then do their trades with lower rates then remove their sells afterwards to bounce back the normal rates.
the ultimatum pause thing for the window trade in map is very solid idea, love it and never thought of, well done !!!
Man I can tell you come from software development and planning out requirements and designs! Really good well presented idea. GGG should hire you as a product owner :)
First time I've seen someone provide a solution that would address many QoL issues without being essentially an auctionhouse, I love the idea of the non-interactable trade window!
This exact idea of cross instance trading has been floating around on both the official forum and Reddit for years now, at least as long as I've been playing (Legacy League). If GGG wanted to implement something like this they absolutely would have by now.
I like the idea! I think a good first step is not having to go to someone's hideout / same area as them to even trade. I think if its possible they should allow us to send a trade request by just clicking on someone's name in the chat box. So... it would be like you whisper for an item and then get the trade request from them without having to join a party or hideout.
Hi, could you also fix that people don't buy my stuff whenever I am playing, but as soon as I need to go on the Toilette for 5 mins they spam me with trades? :D
This is a good idea. I also liked the idea of having a shop stash that's public in your hideout where your stuff is for sale, when someone invited you to group they can visit and purchase from your stash shop. For you the stash would he just like your Public stash tab. For person buying, it looks like npc shop window.
Something that I would love to be implemented is a way to quickly any item found under the bulk item exchange.
The idea that comes to mind is the from Diablo 3 in the early auction house days, where the way you sold gems was very simple.
You just put the gems up, the price was automatically figured out for you, and if they sold you got the currency. I believe WoW tokens work in basically the same way. The price is determined automatically and you just get what the current market price is.
I can’t even imagine how much time this would save when buying things like fossils or scarabs.
Isn't the huge problem with that idea that there is basically no currency in PoE, but only crafting materials or map modifiers that we value a certain way? Either they'd have to relate everything to chaos, or introduce some sort of neutral currency that you'd only use to trade. Somehow. :,)
I did market PVP in EVE Online, a game with frictionless trading. Market manipulation was very different to what most people think - you didn't create a supply crisis by buying up all of an item (this almost always lost money), you anticipated demand increases, then bought up items in anticipation. Example of what market manipulation would look like in POE - you buy 374 copies of a very rare unique like Garukhan's Flight or Arakali's Fang or Garb of the Ephemeral - then either publish a build guide (if you have the reach) using that item, or reach out to a content creator with a build idea. Very different to the whole 'I buy all the Atziri's Step and relist higher' - this didn't work in EVE with massive scale item destruction, it certainly won't work here.
On the timer suggestion around 10:38 - here's how I'd get around that. Make a couple dozen accounts all in one guild. Each guild member has their own time limit. This suggestion imposes friction that is limited solely to people without many accounts.
Really what you need, IMO, is a delay on receiving proceeds of sales. That stops quick re-investment. If I sell an Arakali's Fang for 2 exalts (or whatever fair price is on that day), you should get the Fang immediately - but I should have to wait a meaningful time to get my exalts. This would stop a lot of the shenanigans I pulled in EVE.
Any significant friction reduction will increase the relative market power of wealthy players at the expense of the less wealthy.
PoE is my favorite game, having started since open beta, and I've always hated its trade.
For everything that has improved over the years, trading has stayed the same tedious chore it's always been. I saw a little bit of how trading on PS4/PS5 version of PoE works, and while not perfect I wish we got that as an option on PC.
Really good, reasonable solutions in this video. I hope GGG can implement some of these for PoE 2 or somewhere down the line.
As a sidenote, I'm new to the channel. I came back from a few years break on PoE (can't play games on kb+m anymore; gamepad support A++).
I've watched a lot of your guides already to catch up on content I've missed. Great guides. Good, clear speaking voice. I gave a sub a while ago, please keep up the lovely content 👍
THIS VIDEOOO IS A MUST , we need this in game
some tiny change that would already make a big difference is being able to see how many of a certain currency are in the trade window instead of having to count them and potentially glance over things like there only being 1 chaos instead of 10 etc
using this system a good way to get rid of the price fixers is if you refuse the trade the item listing gets removed and the item gets a cooldown of like 10-15minutes. And a problem with the proposed system is that people sell items for decimal currency so we'd need to have acess to exalted shards or chaos shards on the go to make those trades, that means we'd need a way to split exalted/chaos to shards
That's not a good idea because sometimes people don't know the real value of their items which leads to getting spammed by 20 bots which they ignore.
@@Yomush how is that not a good idea? they reject the trade because thats not the price they want, the item gets removed from listing they will then re-pricecheck and put it at a correct price after the CD
@@IDarKTugaI Punishing people for not knowing the economy with arbitrary cooldowns will make the system even more furstrating than it already is. Bots will find a bypass anyway and legitimate people will be put on cooldown which helps nobody
We might still need the old way or an edition to this strategy for a specific scenario. Buyer messages asking for x item, asks hey do you have the rest of the set, or other t10 maps, etc. If you do, it would be nice to manually make a trade with those items and the agreed upon price to the player. The other option would be to have player store profiles where they can go to your “shop” and select all the t10 maps and it makes like a cart, and then they send a message.
You are so right about the trade request - we've talked about the exact same mechanic in my PoE group, so fingers crossed GGG sees this
Really liked this video, definitely something I would love to see in poe.
I think the most important factor with any trade changes is to make sure it fix into existing trade infrastructure. Personally, I have been a fan of just letting people buy items out of my public stash. Still need to whisper and invite to party, and go to my hideout. But instead of me leaving my map, they could go to my box and buy items for the asking price.
I would like the exact same, but with a trader NPC that organizes all that for a more wholesome experience :)
They could have a trade shop vendor that people could NPC load in their hideout. This NPC can handle trades 24/7 and could even be populated with oldest items only. Offer right click menu's that can flag items for reporting scammers/fixers. Automatically removes it from the traders inventory (essentially replaces the bad item with a new one from the list)
Another point regarding the Ultimatum-like pausing: When introducing the Sentinel mechanic they mentioned it is deactivated in certain areas of he game first of due to balancing, but also because of technical issues, so i would believe they have some sort of check that knows when you are in such an area.
They could use such a check for stuff like Lab or Endgame Bosses, so instead of you feeling pressured to answer the trade or getting frozen in time inside a Boss fight, the person whispering you for the trade first gets an instant message saying something like "This Player is currently in a dangerous situation, please wait" or maybe even telling them the exact Boss thats being fought so when you get the message someone is fighting Uber-Sirus you know that this person definitely wont reply right now.
I already really appreciated the content for FR build but this one video is insane, huge props for this proposal.
this is a like and sub material here.
As someone who barely trades, if at all (in terms of selling potential valuable items I find) due to getting very easily stressed by just the idea of randomly getting a whisper, having to not be a bother by being slow to respond, invite the person, leave whatever content I am currently doing or worst case having to ask them to wait until I am done, go back to my hideout, look back at the message to figure out what item they requested to buy and see which tab I have it in, scroll through my tabs to find the correct one and then again pick out the item by searching for the name or part of it which I obviously already forgot and have to look back at the message again to figure out, then finally request to trade or accept his trade request if he or she has gotten impatient by now, THEN I finally run into the risk of there being some kind of misunderstanding price-wise or the person trying to scam me by putting in weird or wrong stack sizes of currency which I th.. My mind just melts and becomes overwhelmed by just thinking (or overthinking) about the process of selling just one single item. I don't mind trading that much when it comes to me buying something with my own currency or trading up in terms of currency value, but selling? Nah. I remember selling an Inspired Learning back in Scourge league but that was it, and mostly just because I knew it would yeet itself.
Sorry to whomever actually read the mess above or even a fraction of it, but what I would love to see is a new Stash, a Trade Stash kind of like my own personal shop where you start with one premium stash tab and a currency stash tab. You can put items into the premium tab and it works exactly like you think it would. People can search on poe trade and find items you have in there just like they otherwise would. If and when they whisper you to buy an item you have in there all you have to do is invite them, they go to your hideout and look in your Trade Stash or shop or w/e, find the item they want and pull it out kind of like with the Guild Stash only with the price tag added, which then whatever amount of currency that might be gets pulled from their inventory and goes into your Trade Stash currency tab. I imagine still needing to have the required currency in your inventory and when you click on an item in the Trade Stash that you want to buy a new window pops up where you then pour the currency into, and if the amount you put in matches with the price tag of the item the trade goes green and you can click 'trade' to buy it. This would just be an addition to regular trading, would REALLY help with the buying of small-change items (1 alch stuff) at least Mud Flats Hero to Mud Flats Hero, and would on average save you from some bother and pain and otherwise completely save me and my soul from eternal non-trade purgatory. If they want or don't want to add the option to buy additional tabs for the Trade Stash I could not care less, one tab is all I need to actually be able to do something and would still trade for other peoples items just like I am already doing. I would think that adding the option to buy more tabs would quickly kill the old method of trade and takeover almost completely which I understand they might not want at all, but just one tab, maybe even a smaller one than what we know today?
It's probably a silly idea or something Chris straight up just don't want, but I don't care. I don't CARE, Wilson. PLEASE SEND HELP
thats amazing, GG please do implement this. I'm mostly concerned with the feasibility of pausing at that volume but the rest is a simple database transaction.
To prevent messages from being changed before being sent could be used asymmetric encryption, when you click the copy message button you get the encrypted message, when the message reaches the server it's decrypted, and sent to the item owner which will see your interface containing the interaction buttons.
If a message is sent without the encryption, the trade interaction buttons wont show in chat.
Big issue would be adding a on-demand pause button. I'd keep a trade request open for Maven just so I could take a break at the memory event.
Your proposal is quite good. In Eve online there is this escrow system. Items are placed to be sold and bought via escrow offers whic are global trade deals that allready contain the item inside it. Then the buyer gets exactly what hes buying and he can only pay the asked amount to receive the goods. It would nor work for buy offers but one could still do buy offers for currency items. Naturally escrow cannot be the only method for trading or it has to have counter offer functionality built into it.
The only thing added to this I'd like to see, is a block when you're doing high tier bossing. Ubers and Maven and Sirius, stuff like that. Even with pausing it in the middle of the fight would probably ruin the flow, so if you're in a boss fight and they whisper you, it'll automatically tell them you're in a boss fight and to give it a bit of time, or you can reply when you're done with the similar trade offer. And I think being able to toggle this stuff on and off would be nice.
Imagine they released an mtx stash tab to fund the extra server power they would need to run your trading idea. Awesome vid :)
Oh, this also provides an interesting blow to price-fixers, you can temporarily lock out items from appearing on the trade site if they decline several times in a row. It can actually be beneficial to non-pricefixers, removing spams for an underpriced item before they get back to their stash (like if a harvest craft hits) and shuting down busy trade items when afk or in content you don't want to pause (the worst rituals can't handle the millisecond of lag between a trade window closing and your attacks resuming)
The overall premise is great but I think we should have a separate Trade tab tied to Inventory, like to the right of Cosmetic or even move the Inventory title up and place the Trade tab below it. And in there we'd have X amount of slots for setting static prices or even a price range where a buyer could use a slider to make their offer ala Tujen style. This tab could also have a separate "wallet" where buyers can transfer the currency their willing to use. This way when that non-interactable window opens it removes the need for the backend to even access your actual inventory. Hope my ranting made some sense, lol.
Cool idea. Perhaps one potential approach to price fixers in this world is that if you decline a trade as the seller, the item gets unlisted and you have to set the price again. Only a small amount of inconvenience but it would be very easy for GGG to detect someone declining and relisting the item over and over.
So, if I whisper you to buy your item, and you're doing an activity where you can't respond, your item gets delisted? Price fixers will never (that I've encountered) issue a party invite, they just ignore you.
@@Elimino_P did... did you watch the video? Because that's all addressed in it.
@@fang_xianfu Are you referring to the part where he talks about using Ultimatum style pause when you get a trade offer? That's certainly not easily abusable...
How long after implementation before there are scripts that bot-spam every item cheaper than yours to delist them? Any system can be abused, but we probably want something that takes a dumb-dumb like me more than 30 seconds to find a way to abuse.
I think doing a semi AH is more doable, imagine an AH but when you try to purchase an item it will pop a accept/refuse button on the seller's screen, the buyer needs to put in the currency into the AH, and if the trade is accepted the currency will be transferred to seller's stash if declined the item will be removed from the AH and into a different non-selling stash to prevent more spamming if you mispriced it.
if item is listed for 5ex and someone puts 5ex in AH window, trade happens automaticly without even asking seller. I mean why would someone put item for sale and after dont sell?? unless seller is price fixer.Automatic sale will wipe out all price fixers instantly. I dont understand whats the downside of this??
@@MrArchy1986 if trade happens automatically it will be the same as D3
@@rainzhang4229 Newer played d3.And Idgaf what its like, I just can't stand current poe trade with fkn whispering 50 times to buy your fossil. Now there is even bulk buy price fixers, that has shit up for sale but never accepts trades. It cant stay the way it is.
@@MrArchy1986 I think player interaction to some degree is good for the game and having a accept button will lower the chances of mispricing
@@rainzhang4229 price fixers are reason for 99% of mispricings. There is simple solution for that. Whisper option can still be awailable with option to agree on prices. But if u put stuff for sale with fixed price, I dont see why wouldnt I be able to buy it for that price. When u go to shop, u get to pay the price it was listed on shelf. Cashiers dont get to make prices up at checkouts. Whats the big deal?
Love this, only "iffy" thing is the "public tab" part, that requires people to spend money one way or another, but on the other hand, that also shows that people are in it seriously, instead of it being bots and scammers on the F2P side of the game. :) love this!
I actually had very similiar idea how to solve this problem with the request trade. Agree with you 100%
Instead of the trade window, it should be a small notification (just like party invites) on the right side of the screen, that you can still see the itens and currencies, and you can accept/decline
Dude this is an awesome idea, really hope GGG look into it and seek you to implement that, or at least something similar!, great video and great work, best regards.
The issue with price fixers and scammers can be easily fixed using the commodity market where someone can place the item and it can be bought by someone else without personal interraction with seller, the only single obstruction is the way of the monetization of the GGG. They sell public tabs that are necessary if you want to trade.
I really like this idea, and there are many possibilities to play with the cooldown both as a measure against price fixers (exponentially increasing penalties for every refused / ignored trade after a few "free" ones for legit afk users / unintentionally underpriced items) and to match GGG's idea of what is "too fast" trade progression.
Another idea if they can make it use the pause function: Have the other player's character hover next to the trade window as a slightly zoomed in avatar, so you can see who is making you the offer. That way we get to see other people's MTX (and maybe get interested in buying some) even if we don't meet them in their hideout. Would probably even get a better view of them that way than with a regular trade.
This is a fucking great idea, dude, both of them. Sometimes when the waypoint is too far from the map device in some hideouts you don't even see the other player ur trading with, so no point of even going there to have "player interaction", ur ideia kinda fixes and it and also let's you flex if you got some nice mtx effects.
5:56 I LOVE that idea. I love the entire mechanic. Provides a bit more security than what I was thinking. It would actually allow for the casual player to make more currency as well. Although, I'd love it even more if there was a way where you can get trades while offline and you have to accept or decline as soon as you come online.
solution to price fixing seems pretty simple from my pov, if someone ignores or declines too many times (say 5 or 10 times), their item is automatically unlisted
how about only automate trade in raw exalts in the trade site. you load up your automated stash tab with exalts and lock it, 5 mins later they become active in the trade site and your items you purchased are waiting for you in remove only tabs. listing items would work just as is but in a special trade tab that will remove each item once purchased.
this is great because it would not only stop scammers, but the pause and trade pop up, would make it really easy and painless to trade.
Yo creo que si que hay una forma de fixear esto. Los que hayan jugado Wakfu, Metin2 , Dofus, entenderán el sistema.
En estos juegos , tu cuando querías tradear, cogías y ponías en una de las ciudades un sitio para tradear , en Wakfu(una bolsita) , en Metin2 (una mesita ),etc. Dentro de este sitio podías poner el item y precio, los jugadores cuando clicaban en tu bolsita , podían mirar que tienes en venta y los precios, cuando le daba a comprar le restaba al comprador la cantidad fijada por vendedor , del inventario de comprador.
Si tuviera que implementar esto a POE, haría un cofre dentro del hideout de los jugadores al que pudieran acceder la gente que te whispea por un item.
Tendíamos el mismo sistema, el jugador viene a tu hideout , va al sitio donde tu estas vendiendo , compra y se va.
Para mi esto mataría dos pájaros de un tiro, ya que , además, el jugador que se encuentra en DELVE o el jugador que no quiere perder un portal de su mapa, no tendria que necesariamente salir para poder efectuar la venta.
¿Qué tan difícil es implementar esto en el juego?
haven't heard a proposal yet, but imagine if you can have stash, where you put goods with price (just like now), but instead of trading with person, you can just visit their hideout and take it from chest and pay currency
I had some similar thoughts: imagine adding some sort of unique id to each item (probably already exist). You just copy that id from the trade website and paste it into some trade window with a new NPC. It automatically takes the currency out of your currency tab (it can already do that for the crafting station). I don't think this confirmation is necessary, this is more for passive trades like currency and low value items in my opinion. There could also be a fee for trading, possibly based on the value of the trade to make this bad for high frequency trades or high value trades. This could be done as a league mechanic for testing.
Could use the same system that imprints use, they easily tell if an item is the same one.
Quick trading tip as I've read a lot of complaints about currency trading is to sell your currency for what you want to buy. If you want regrets, take 10 chaos and list the. For 20 regrets. You'll usually get a response within 5 minutes and you also get a much better rate compared to buying it.
I am hypercritical of most suggestions for "fixing" PoE's trade system by backseat designers; 99% of them (auction house, especially) are made by people with no clue how complicated an economy like PoE is and how devastating that would be to the normal player. This is maybe the first suggestion that I think would actually be a viable improvement to the system (although I still don't see instance pausing making it in for this - GGG would probably want to come up with something else for that).
Excellent work, subtractem. Keep it up.
the economy being "complicated" doesnt make an auction house any less feasible.
@@alexclaton it absolutely does, honestly pointing at diablo 3 will always be a definitive argument why that idea sucks
@@ProMikus the only issue people had with the ah in diablo 3 was the rmt aspect from what i saw of the complaints.
@@alexclaton ahaha yeah, that's probably why after removing rmah blizzard realized that this portion of ah was only a part of the problem and not that much time later they decided to scrap it altogether. Why do you think they deleted it if ppl only had problems with rmah only? You are either disingenous or ignorant.
I remember watching some video about the fall of d3's ah and most of people in comments were very fond of ah because... it let them earn some real money in a video game, its hilarious looking back when i remember everyone fucking hated ah in d3 now out of a sudden it turns out people love auction houses, where were they when d3 ah was getting deleted.
@@ProMikus That was because it was a real-money auction house. It works just fine, in practice.
I would be happy with an auto-shop option. Set this option in the tab, and everything you add there can be auto picked from your stash.
So, you go to the trade site, and these items in these tabs have an additional button: "insta buy". Click that and your currency is removed and the item is stored in your stashes (could even be "remove-only" stash if inventory space is an issue)
That would fix my 99% issues with the trade system. Also, it would provide a more stable economy since the items would always be listed, so no "don't trade in the night because its more expensive" or "get currency on week days, spend on weekends" type of stuff.
They could even sell the special trade tab as an MTX and make money from it to help pay for the development. I know I would not have a problem with that at all. Just fucking make some changes because what they have right now is fucked.
I really like how you present the problem of trade and all the workarounds you provided on the video! I hope GGG use some of the solutions you gave, at least as a kickstart. Trading right now is not funny, what keeps me in the game is that Tujen does not ignore me :V
My only issue is that this requires you to have a public currency tab. The selling side is already restricted to people who have purchased a premium stash tab; I don't think we should be making trade almost exclusively pay-gated.
This is definitely a good start for an idea to solve a lot of issues. As a more casual player I don't often deal with a lot of low price items because of the hassle.
I would also like to see something for offline trading, or a trading client, where it runs a much more basic version so that you can play something else while you work on trying to buy or sell stuff.
Just being able to have price set on item and the game verifies the exact currency is being traded instead of both player's having to manually count would be a huge improvement.
The lack of whisper response is also an interesting problem. Perhaps the game could detect what is an official trade whisper and be able to auto-reply to interested buyer that the seller is currently running content so please be patient. Seller is offered some chat macros buttons like "interested...brb" Perhaps in addition to chat there can be a little trade notification area that has a queue of trade requests to easily get back to interested buyers once the seller has a free moment to complete the trade.
This sounds like a much better "solution", especially the whisper response part!
My idea to fix this was actually that trade tabs for liek vending machines. You check the website and if items are in your trade tab ppl can visit your hideout and basically do a vendor trade but with your stash they get the item and the currency gets put directly in a seperate tab you can withdraw from
Thanks for the video. Frankly, it seems like any change would be an improvement, currently the trade is an enormous pain.. I would like something similar to the Albion Online trade system.
100% with you on that. Trading is really the thing that I hate most to do in this game, it's also what kills my mood, my productivity and my will to continue playing whenever I have to buy something, and I gotta go through 40 people before I can get the trade done. Horrible experience, absolutely despise it.
Only way to fix price fixing (at least low balling the price with no intent to sell) is to ensure if it is listed it has to be able to be bought - solve this and you also solve the no reply issue since it must be able to be bought but then you are heading into auction house territory.
Smaller scale fixing like you outline in the 4th minute is a different issue, but the people who manipulated Simulacrums in 3.17 week 2 could quite justifiably be banned under TOS part 22 and really should be. Not willing to provide info on how they did it, but it leaves a massive, massive mark in the trade API (and slows the trade API for everyone)
If GGG banned a couple dozen long term accounts with dozens of mirrors for the worst cases of price fixing, and ANNOUNCE that fact - you'd see a lot of the price fixers that don't attack the trade API scared away.
Same thing happened now with recombs.
I love the idea for this, but it is essentially the Console trade board that already exists and GGG has already said that they don't want to combine that with the trade website because of what it would do to the economy. They originally planned on allowing for the trade web site to work for console and scrapped that plan because of exactly that reason.
As a software developer i'm SURE they can and maybe they already have done something like the mtx ingame store using the trade site data as a fully functioning auctionhouse, using the same rule of take the item and currency from the respective premium tabs from seller and buyer
Price fixing solution:
Using your official buttons approach, after some number of people ping somebody for an item and no trade is realized, block the seller from selling that item for a day :) For currency, block the seller from selling that type of currency for a day.
In the trade database, there can be a counter for trade requests which could be updated in an eventually consistent manner (at some point, the count will represent the number of passed trade requests). Of course give the item 5-10 minutes to sell and don't block it after the initial spam from buyers.
I am not sure how divine orbs react with item ids but they should not change the trade identity of the item or this will be exploitable.
this sounds good, but i think instead of stopping the person from trading, their actual trades should be hidden / taken off the market
@@krismoose124 "block the seller from selling that item" - hiding the item from trade is one way of doing that, yes, but it should be visible to the seller what the problem was. We should not assume malice if the trader does not respond to trades (or negatively respond) for a particular item. Maybe he is for some reason unable to trade or something. It should be visible that a mistake was made in the way some item was marketed by the seller so the "good" sellers either use DND when they do not want to trade or just fix their trade attitude with the next item they sell.
That's kind of what i was thinking for my entire time playing at PoE, something just like MU online handle their char stores stash but of course with those additions that you just mentioned here with a pause screen like ultimatum, clever solution! hoping GGG take a look at it!
A handle for Price Fixers. In the trade API just consolidate the same item being listed by the same person, instead of allowing them to be listed individually. (if they are selling the item for the same price it would just show 1 listing, but showing they are selling 20 of them. Similar to how it does with currency.)
This is my minimalist plan to deal with scammers. It requires no additional server transactions.
On the trade website, generate a transaction hash based on the items and currency. Items are inherently serializable to strings which makes this trivial.
Allow a player to paste a transaction hash from the trade site into a box in the trade window.
If the player pastes a transaction hash into the trade window, disable the accept button in the trade window unless the transaction hash for the trade window matches the transaction hash pasted from the website.
This could be streamlined even more, but I believe this simple system could more or less eliminate scams with almost no investment on GGG's part and minor effort on the part of traders.
Cross instance trading was proposed loooong time ago. And as far as i know, it's one of the options on the table for GGG.
For price fixing you could lock players from receiving a type of currency from a trade if they have that type of currency in their public stash and are selling it, the lockout could persist for some 10-20 minutes after the currency has been removed from the public stash.
I like that you mentionned several times that your (good) solution relies on assumptions about how easy or hard it would be to make without knowing their software. I worked as a backend developer in a big eCommerce company before with a big legacy solution to process payments. It was not user-friendly at all, both for customers (shops) and end-users using the actual payment pages etc. People had a lot of propositions on how to improve that over the years I worked there but they almost never got implemented because either A) the technical debt of that giant legacy piece of software didn't allow it or B) it was technically feasible but then it was a strategic decision to not spend weeks/months (and then money) to make them.
What I want to say to most of people here (not you Subtractem because you know that) is that GGG 100% already thought about a ton of solutions probably close to that one, but they either have a too big of a technical debt to do it on the backend or they strategically don't want to spend the resource on it. That's how it works in software development.
Interesting, thanks for the point of view :D
naaaaaah, you just program it in 5 minutes COPIUM
This is actually an interesting proposal, not even close to a AH but is way better than what we have.
there should be in map table you can access but only items move to a trade windows witch can be open while mapping without the other player/trader present.
Some of this would be great!!! GGG does not need to revamp the trade system but definitely needs to update some of it at this point.
GJ hope GGG actually looks at this
I think one place to draw inspiration from should be steam trade requests. Basically they would send you the dm, you can click view offer, then once you check out the items, you can either accept their offer, counter offer, or cancel all together. I would love to hear your thoughts on this
I would have notifications saying trade and it tells you what it is and you can press a button, yes or no, ect to tell the other person to wait for you or to not bother with trade
The worst isn't getting to the trade and realizing you mis-priced it. The worst thing is when you invite them, they join, they show up in your hideout, you portal back, you find the item, you start the trade, and they cancel because one of the fifty other people they messaged first replied at a lower price.
Great work man, this is somthing they have needed to address for a long time
They can brainstorm with the MercuryTrade developer. I would like to see something like that, a popup appears saying "xy wants to buy yx for xx" and instead of inviting you can just accept or decline. And i think you dont need to pause the instance. Set a timer to, lets say, 20 seconds after trage request. If you are afk or in a bossfight etc. it will just decline.
One problem with this system would be fractional currency. It's easy enough if you have, say, 10 ex shards to do a 7.5 ex trade. But currently that's not how most trades are done, since people most commonly use chaos orbs to roughly match that fractional part. How do you enforce that in the system? What ratio do you use? And how do you prevent people from manipulating that ratio to benefit from trades?
One imperfect solution to that would be to add an option to convert full orbs to 20 shards, but then if you want to buy an item for 1.2 ex (without trading with currency flippers) you need to have 2 ex.
I think one way to stop price fixers is with three difrent mechanics.
Firstly, any item or currency stak that has received more than 10 buy requests over 10 consecutive minutes and which has not been sold gets timed out for 30 days and can't be listed for sale again for 30 days.
Say a person receives 100 requests in 1 minute, they all count as the one request for that one minute. The idea is so that if someone wants to fix their price if they underpriced an item they can, but if someone wants to just keep an item for sale just to scam people out of expensive items at low prices they can't.
Second thing, no item that has been removed from sale for more that two minutes can be put out for sale for the next 30 days. This is both to stop scammers and price fixers from gaming the system and protect people who removed the item from a premium tab only to have the trade canceled on them.
Third, no item that has been bought can be sold for the next 30 days, no amount of currency of a type that has been bought can be sold for the next 10 days. This will unfortunately have devastating effects on the crafting economy, thought it might be solved if crafted items get new item IDs or if recombinators are kept in game for the long term. The idea being that nobody can get a monopoly in any one item, they might be able to crash the price of an item one month into the league, but will see diminishing returns for the final month.
I think the way to solve most of those is to have the Chinese trading, where you have a trade bureau in your hideout and people trading come to it and put the money in it. It forces trades put in it, so you can't pricefix.
Dude legit that is brilliant. I feel like it'll never see the light of day but holy shit you're on to something.
Que cara bom, é bem difícil achar alguém que propõe soluções invés de reclamar apenas. Mantenha o ótimo trabalho.
translation : "this guy is good, it's pretty difficult to find someone that proposes ideas instead of just whining. keep up the great work."
I agree, subtractem is easily one of my favorite gamers!
Eu como casual só consigo jogar na primeira e segunda semana de uma liga nova, depois você não consegue comprar mais nada ( itens baratos )
@@viniciusguarda4263 eu sou casual também, sempre tô spammando alguma coisa pra comprar, e é triste pra quem vende também
As an Enterprise Architect, I can say that this is a fantastic proposal that hits concisely on business value, potential caveats, and a high-level architectural pattern that doesn't get too bogged down in the weeds. I sincerely hope that GGG/Tencent consider this.
Complete stop from ultimatum is good part and i would love to see that on trade in map. It will good fit to syndicate choose window aswell. Only one question, what about group play?
What a nice work man!!!! That would be so awesome
7:50 i think pausing an instance would be a bad idea for if you want to play with more than one person. dont think it will have to pause either.
One time i was playing World of Warcraft. It was 14 years ago when Wrath of the Lich King was realesed. There was automated auction house. I listed some mining and herbalism mats, and when I woke up I opened an email with 1k gold. Preatty good experience. No scammers, no price fixers, no not replaying accounts. I loved it. Why it is not imposssible in 2022 in poe?
I definitely agree that fixing trade will lower the accessibility barrier for newbies. I remember not even knowing that trade was a thing, on my first league. And on my second league, unresponsive buyers didn't make a good first impression.
Bots, though... Nowadays I even reply "ty" to bots because they're certainly doing a service to the community!
Biggest issue currently with trade in poe is the ammount of ppl trying to scam you so u always have to double check ur stash what price u actually have it up for etc
I like this approach, and totally agree that it could be implemented by GGG fairly easily (I also have a few decades of game dev behind me).
I also had a concept for something that could be made right now, external to the game as a helper. A helper app that makes a hash of the item and requested price from the website, and validates this hash during the trade with a popup over the trade window, which would rehash the trade item stats and verify they match the saved one, then show a green or red border for example. This could also work from the seller's perspective, first to make it easier to find the actual item (when you have 10 flasks that are really similar but slightly different stats), and second to verify the currency is the same as the original agreement.
Obviously, this is a lot less slick and would possibly require a bit of manual hotkey action from the trade window (similar to how prices are checked now), but it would help move the needle away from scams by quite a bit.
Something else I didn't hear you touch on that would be a HUGE benefit to this is another step in helping prevent RSI! Clicking a full inventory worth of fusings into a trade window multiple times already feels awful, so having it auto-fill would be an absolutely amazing boon.
Here’s a suggestion, it’s already done well on console. They have a board that looks similar to the trade site, and you can put in your payment then all the trader has to do is accept it once they are back in their hideout