also always, ALWAYS, use the collapse per seller function on poetrade when looking for an item. Scammer will list 10 times the same items at a low/high price in an attempt to price fix a low traded item
From the moment you released this video, you are officially our guardian angel. I noticed few ppl list items for less than they worth, but they never responded to me wanting to buy them. So usually, when I see this I plainly ignore them and don't waste my time trying to interact with them. This happens mostly when I trade currencies. Thanks again for keeping your angelic watcher's eye over us.
yes you are just to late most of the time... i am faster than you XD just go and pin a item like tailoring orb for 3.9 ex i will buy this item in this moment its online on poe.trade and make my 0.1-0.5 ex Profit.. now its not much but i do this 60-200 times in 1 hour... now you know how to get rich in no time.. and i took the worst example here... i think the problem is more that you dont take your time pricing your items correct. just look up on poe.trade and check more than the first listing... and if you get wispered like 20-30 times after listing a item maybe you rethink about selling it for this price...
This is exactly why, when I sell something for cheap (purposely), I never respond to ANY of the whispers that come in instantaneously. I'll give it a good minute after the first flood to either let the next person who messages me have it, or pick one of the last few to trade with.
I sold a Doctor Card today and the first 4 people that messaged me to buy it tried the bait and switch. If anyone EVER closes the window and tries to re-establish the trade then you should assume they are scamming til you double or triple check the transaction again and again.
price fixing is awfull this league. Almost everything is getting fixed on mass it feels also for newer players: when selling more common fragments like scarabs check prices on poetrade but ignore the first 1-2 pages or set a filter to at least 10 in stock. Do not use overlays like awakened poe trade/poe ninja to price check those.
Yeah, I think this is the first time people have worked out how to seriously attack poe.ninja's pricing algorithim. I've known how since 3.3 and never used it.
this comment shows, that you have no idea how trade works in poe. bulk sale prices are always higher than single item sales. poe does not work like real markets in this aspect. ppl pay a premium for the convenience of not having to msg 10 sellers instead of just 1. the market value of 1 sacrab really is 1c, even if the market value of 10 of the same sacrabs is 12 or even 15c.
You know I really had a feelling this was going on so i've been pricing my stuff quite a chunk higher with some patience for a while and got great results, happy someone is calling this out mate
Unfortunately, if GGG actually cared, they would've done something already YEARS AGO. Alternatively, the easiest solution to this is pretty easy. Auction house. Which tencent PoE already has years ago. At this point seeing as to how GGG is majorly owned by tencent, it's just funny to think that international PoE is the "smaller" PoE, or what people would call, a "private server".
I noticed this as well. I had an 8 slot Fire cluster jewel that trade showed as worth 10c. Like several dozen listings at 10c. I listed at 10c and got bombarded with tells within seconds so I knew something was up. Took it off. Waited a bit and relisted at 20c. Immediately bombarded again. Rinse and repeat until 50c where it slowed down a bit, but sold. GGG really needs to stop holding onto this antiquated method of sales. It's clear it's being manipulated and there's absolutely nothing fun about messaging 10-15 people before you get a response.
I was just about to buy one and was shocked at the 2ex price tag of a corrupted lvl 1 Enlighten. I understand that enlighten is not as build-enabling as it used to be in the past, but this makes no sense. If you actually need it you are in for a ride lol.
When GGG does something about these scammers then it is because of the traffic and not because of giving people a less horrible trading time because thats what they actually want.
If u follow the poe trade market, u'll understand that prices went down on 12th cuz its weekend. All higher value currency orbs etc drop down in price during that time..the question is why it didn't went up on Sunday and who was price-fixing them on 14th
I understand GGG not wanting to remove human interaction from the trade system but... An Auction House style system would remove MOST forms of scamming. In this particular case, I think that changing the style of trade system wouldn't affect this form of scamming. But it would help with a large majority of the issues. I feel like if GGG wants human interaction they should just focus on the services aspect and instead of relying on the TFT discord for it, make an in-game option for contacting people for services. This would keep the much needed interaction as well as push it for players who maybe don't like to use a discord server or don't know about it. Then we can get away from this trade system and use a much more secure one.
@@Wools Very true. An AH is just an all around good idea for a better trade experience, but I doubt we'll ever see it. Hopefully GGG will realize the benefits of it and at least try changing up the trade system someday.
I don't get the "human interraction" argument of not adopting an AH type system of trade. What interraction there is boils down to a copy paste of the trade request, and if you are lucky, a "TY" once done. If they want to keep having to go to a players hideout to showcase MTX, that can still be done with an AH. This league I think, maybe at a stretch, 10% of my trade "interractions" have even bothered with the "TY", the rest trade, dump group, zone out, done.
@@wizzfizz6930 Yeah, it's a very lazy excuse. Honestly all human interaction does for a trade is allow opportunity to ruin someone's experience by scamming them.
It would open doors for gazillion of other scams and trading issues..how many times did you underprice the item and got 20 messages in few seconds..with AH your item is gone and you lost exalts!
I tend to ignore in the trade site anyone that I know is clearly pricefixing or don't wanna deal with, and I'm AMAZED at how many people I've had to ignore this league compared to previous one.
This here I will never understand why they believe that having to use an external tool(even if its their own website) to find trades and then message people makes for great gameplay for either the buyer or the seller when there are so many better ways to do it that would make the game overall a lot better for the average person to trade and enjoy
For me this was extremely noticeable when it comes to trying to buy Regrets.Since Regrets now have a extra use (buying Orbs Of Unmaking) the price fixing of them was insane, i am not even joking i spent something like 30 or more minutes and whispered about 30 or more people, all in the top 10 or 15 people selling cheapest and nobody answered, and after that another new person was selling Regrets.I actually gave up and bought them at a "expensive" price, which is probably the REAL price of them, but just the psychological damage this causes is massive, just the thought you could have bought them at 1:1 c ratio rather than 1.5:1 c ratio makes it incredibly hard for you to feel good when you buy them.
the solution for that is to instead sell chaos and indicating a price in regret orb. People that actually try to sell their regret will come to you instead. It might take a little more time but since the market is in high demand for theses it shouldnt be too long
Trading is by far the worst part of Poe, I wish every item was part of a boss loot table so with enough grinding trash gamers like me could actually enjoy the game.
With enough grinding trash gamers like you can just buy the items, but the good players can get that amount faster and do something more productive later
I noticed this with the patient. I jsut trade macroed it, didnt want to calcucate the value and put for 20c. Okay insta messages, then i calculate the value relative to the nurse and it should have been 27c. :D put it for 25 and of course it sold.
I gave up on that in Heist. They literally listed 10 of thousands of exalts to push price from 30 40c to 100 120c. Literally in 1 night they pushed price 3 times. Worst part is nobody cared about that at all. Some ppl even said its natural. 1,5 month into league ex jump 3 times. They have the guns and they can do whatever they want with economy. I flip currency when i need some neat piece of gear so i notice this much much more then average player. Even now most of the time you can sell ex for more if u sell it via pm then you can sell it via listing. Economy is bricked and you can exploit it rly rly hard if you fallow those ppl that do that. GGG should look into that coz thats some nasty organization probably that sells that currency for real money.
"I'm very sorry but it's our policy not to get involved in player item disputes, as we don't have the resources to fully investigate each one and police them. A player is unlikely to get a ban for scamming, but I've taken a note of the account in question, and will be flagging it to keep an eye on. When players report others for any kind of behaviour, from scamming, to real world trading, to abusing a bug, this goes on their record. If they accumulate an extremely bad reputation then we will look at taking things further or finding other ways to resolve these issues. It frequently occurs that players who have bad reputations are often committing more serious and ban-able offenses." They are quite literally saying that scamming is allowed but we keep tabs on these accounts in case their future behavior warrants a bannable offense. I still have this person added on my friends list and they are not banned. So, for those of you that are new to the game, just remember, you are an exile trading with other exiles. Getting scammed is literally part of the game.
@@sirgog I had video and screenshot evidence of my trade as well as chat logs, which i sent to GGG support. maybe I needed his social security number as well because I don't know what else I could have possibly given them to proceed with a ban.
I suspect so, but I'm not sure. Trade PVP can be vicious in this game sometimes. Only cheat sites would invest money into this, but it's not at a point that I can rule out this being a few wealthy players in a cartel.
@@sirgog i doubt it being just a few players doing it for fun. If you check poetrade and look at e.g. rusted ambush scarabs the first ~30 entries are all bots price fixing. Most of them have similar names, which points to them being run by the same owners. I doubt anyone would waste so much money on keeping 30 bots permanently up just to scam people out of a few chaos. I also doubt that this shit is cheap as the bots have to be pretty much permanently logged in in order to keep staying listed.
@@sirgog if they make drops more frequent to everyone not only currency but also the "expensive" uniques and items this will go for ever. The few will destroy the economy and game
Ancient orbs were definitely also supressed so they could accumulate. Normally it would statt running up day 6. Took double that now and hasnt even run up much yet. Not selling my stack of 200 any time soon at this rate
Can you make a video showcasing the feature in Awakened Poe Trade the shows the quick exalt conversion for .01 to .09? I ran into someone trying to scam me out of a lot of chaos today and i think it would help newer players not get ripped off when selling items for 1.X exalts.
In doing that you're going to get constantly spammed and adding to the chaos of under priced items + people not replying. For generic, high demand, items price it high and keep lowering it every few maps till it sells. Edit: as someone else said they've been adding those under pricers to ignore, as have I. You also run the risk of getting mass ignored.
@@sirgog I noticed that changing areas helps speed this up, as I've had a lot of people whispering me for trade the moment I enter or re-enter a map (generally a portal). Probably has something to do with refreshing the trade api, you get the idea
Items are litterally doubling and halving in price overnight.. And the worst part for me is that ggg would ban you for a map reveal but ruining the entire economy and scamming every new player into hating the game is AOK. They need to set their priorities straight (at best like 5 years ago..)
I bought a random Brass dome the other day for like 5 or 10 c or something, I went on today to buy another one and they were all 24 c listed by the exact same guy at least 200 of them. SSF Looking better and better
I've noticed this on essences... Almost every essence is listed far too cheap on the average but it also seems they no longer require to actually list the items so though it's easier to find out the real price now it became a whole lot more difficult to figure out the why who and how of it all.
well, with essences, there is a huge abundance of them in the market right now. most of them aren't price fixed, the essence nodes just give a dumb amount of stuff.
@@hellboy19991 I'm not talking essence prices being unusually low I'm talking poe.ninja showing a 1c average on 5c essences. Actually listing them 5c sells within the minute as well. Yet no pricefixing behaviour as usual can be seen there's not a ten/twenty fold listings of 1c essences on there by the same person or anything.
If gg chooses and chose not to react, it is maybe because of the mentality that these thing are "3d party". I hope they choose to take action, because I hate it so much, that market manipulation happens and I always feel less effective when playing, just because of the thought of bots doing the job better.
saw already 3 scammers too this league, last leagues there is no one to 1 over the whole league i encounter, now i saw already 3 who were way to publicy and save about there doing.. i dont know what to do against them, but thank you for this video, maybe GGG will atleast think about doing smth against it
the upside of this is I get a lot of instant sells, since I hate trading, I actually prefer trading quickly over making profits... I listed 16 expedition scarabs and they insta sold, kinda like it tbh, i dont care if I missed out on 1-2c each, they are worthless to me and my time is precious.
This has been done on every league and there's a group of people that do it( they might have a discord dedicated to it). Have done it for year's! This is 1 way some of the rich become super rich.
Some people in the comments seem to have a weird aversion to the word "scam" for some reason. There are people willing to call it anything else; "dishonest trading"? Sure! "price fixing"? Absolutely! "market manipulation"? Why not? "scamming"? Whoa, taking it a bit far there aren't you sirgog?!
Yeah the test really is "is this dishonest?" - yes. "Is this trading" - yes. "Is this for profit" - yes. Answer yes to all three, it's a scam. It flies under the radar more because the consequences to each individual are less than, say, a Doctor/Metalsmith swap.
On the other hand as a poe noob who struggles to make decent currancy I'd rather have 60c for my simulacrum than have it sitting in my stash for a week @ 1ex. Money in the bank is sometimes better than a stash full of stuff that takes a week or two to sell.
Better solution would be, that trading is integrated into the game. can't refresh the trade site 12 times or more per second if it would need a banable account. Also would make trading frictionlesser. Also if trade runs per ingame system you could not try to manipulate the price, because if trade gets automated when someone would pay your price your item you use to scam will be gone.
Gotta say i really love the effort to normalize the calling out of terrible and harmful trade practices. Things like this ruin the trade experience for so many people and nothing will be done about it until its rightfully seen as scamming instead of just something harmless, there is a reason why the older non-official trade sites basically all had reminders to the likes of "Dont trade items for uniques as some people will artificially jack up the price of their unique by buying all of them on the market" because it is a scam to pricefix and it destroys trust and experience in the playerbase
Lmao if ur getting 10 msgs as soon an you list an item its because you are pricing it below the cheapest item thats being price fixed...all 10 of those msgs are scammers
@@callingyourphone1212 This adds nothing to my comment. Also I bought an expedition's end earlier for 20c instead of 60,do you think I scammed the guy? He said he's good about it, since he wanted to get rid of it quickly. You dont have to always make textbook trades, unless you really need that currency.
Ah shit. Realised this was possible a long time ago when I grossly underpriced an item by accident once and didn't get a million whispers so I sold it and realized my mistake later. That was just one rare non-meta unique people were not trading much at the time but I always thought the trade volumes would be too high for pricefixing "any item that mattered" this way :/
This problem stems from not having an automated auction house. An auction house where the house takes a percentage really limits this sort of problem. Also, trading without an ah late in the league is a real pain.
Maybe they are price fixed but I have been running a few dozen of them and I could prety much always buy them from live search at 50-60c per and almost everyone invited me instantly..
Oh, as a new player it only took a few weeks to notice that this was happening on almost every item or currency (not a large segment/sample of the economy to be sure, noobs be poor) I was looking to trade in. Personally I wouldn't call it scamming, but it is certainly a manipulative scheme to boost profit in a dishonest manner so.... I can see why anyone would. Sometimes it can be interesting to try and spot the first few legit listings I guess but mostly it's fukin' annoying and I waste enough of my own time without having someone else do it for me. Part of me thinks: 'that's business', the other thinks: 'Fark off or I'll bitechorefukinFACE Carnt!!'. Cheers for throwing it out there for discussion.
Do they just trade items back and forth to each other through public tabs, ignoring other players? I thought there was no way to confirm stuff was sold though, could just be delisted
They are also doing this. They insell to lower prices at a mass degree. This has an even higher effect on poe.ninja that this, as they literally lower all median prices of items.
this is what happens when a games ceo has a "Vision" for his game that includes building a massive breeding ground cess pool for scammers instead of just having a commodity AH
Sometimes. Other times it's a high demand item and you slightly underpriced it (e.g. if exalts are trading at 127c and you list one at 126c, expect 50 messages in the next five minutes; same as you'd see if you posted at 86c although only one of those is severely underpriced)
I'm pretty sure the big scammers are also RMTers. Why not just frequently do ban waves per league to make it not profitable for them to do these stuff?
I totally that the game as whole would benefit from it, the trade sites have been super slow to load this league, to the point where I often have to come back later and try again when searching from something. One question though, do you think those people are legitimate players who just want to be the most powerful at the expense of others or do they profit in other ways such as rmt?
but how do you distinguish just undervalue trades like " oh i wanna get rid of it quickly i will put it for 10c less" scammed people doing undervalued trades, and scammers pumping the undervalued trade records into the data base, This part imo is difficult
Pricefix scams take very significant effort to do. Bob thinking 'oh exalts are 123c I'll list one at 118c for an instant sale' won't have any impact on the poe.ninja price. It takes really deliberate effort.
See, this is bad, but I've had the inverse; scarabs on poe ninja are so overinflated in price, bulk buying them from TFT actually leads to a loss if you're trying to flip them.
Its been bad on console. We have a much smaller player base. An there is a few guilds maybe like 25-30 people in total. That price fix all kinds of items. An the prices are crazy high. I've seen bottle faiths for 40-60x. An its been like this for years. It annoying, I mostly playing in a Sudo SSF mode. So I can still run maps with friends. But most of my items I find other ways to get. Or I need to get lucky on TB
I sold mine for 64c. Felt that I was getting scammed but triple checked the API. Thought it would never sell otherwise if I didn't set the price to what NINJA reported. That, and Kobemamba said simulacrum farming was crashing so I thought it was all good.
People found a way to get a full simu from a single map. My build can't handle it otherwise I'd be doing it. Wouldn't surprise me if this spiked the supply while the demand didn't go up. Guess I'll be spamming legion while the prices still pseudo hold then swap to something else.
IRL law considers this sort of market manipulation (fabricating a false price history to deceive buyers and sellers) as fraud. There's a bunch of people in the art world who did prison time for this.
Here are a few steps to reduce the risk of getting scammed: 1. List Item for a price 2. if you get spammed within seconds, raise price by 20% 3. if you still get spammed with new price, raise by another 20% 4. repeat until no more messages and then lower it abit. Dont feel obligated to commit to every trade that you have listed.
weird. I have been consistently buying 60c simulacrums with no problems, maybe the price has genuinely dropped in the 9 days since you posted this video?
Came in with kind of mixed feelings and thought I would disagree based on the title. But after thinking about it actually agree totally. I noticed that pattern with your content in the past too. Keep it up and thanks for making me think about those topics :)
Price fixing gets worse and worse every league it was awful last league and it’s even worse this league. I don’t understand it the people that are usually doing these price fixes have more currency then they will ever spend in a league but they price everyone out of fun.
My strategy for dealing with this similar to yours but the other way around, I put my item at the price I believe its worth and if I immediately get a dozen people asking for it I slowly raise the price until I'm no longer getting spammed, then I sell it.
Issue is that this increases the negative trade experience many people have. I know that some content creators suggested the method you described but it would really benefit the trade system if people would instead do it like sirgog described in his video. Same time investment, but much less people being unhappy.
Yep, there's been a number of posts on Reddit from people saying "help, GGG banned me for no reason" and when Redditors did a little digging they found out the accounts in question were scammers.
@@sirgog But were they banned for doing scams, or were they banned for something else while being a scammer, like insulting someone after a scam or something, thats a quick ban
Yeah that was a strange thing for me aswell But no sir, this is not a scam mafia Its just sad reallity You can go and set bulk of a simulacrums at 5+ And you will see that like 30ish people selling them for 0.6ex in bulk I was selling my sims aswell in bulk nope my dms wasnt exploded after i listed them
and once again this wouldnt happen if we could just have an auction house in game where you can list an item for a price and other people can just buy it and you get the price you asked back. chris can keep shotuing to the sky how ssfhc is the real way to play poe but if ur gonna make every other experience miserable im not gonna play the fucking game.
Every league it becomes worse and worse and bothing happens. If they change the whole trading system into an auction house for example this will never stop.
yhea the realy need to stop price fix stuf, imagn if just every body price fair how mutch time that save and server load on the API, ore the need to build in a offline system that just have knowledge and right valeu,s on items
Ban people who are running thousands (or dozens) of PCs? How? They can't even keep the currency sellers under control. I am disappointed in your conclusion here.
What GGG needs is to do is introduce an automated trading system. Then they would have all the tools they need to minimize the impact of price fixing, scamming, etc. I know I'd love to buy items for the lowest advertised price without having to worry about the first 10 people not responding.
I bet the market manipulators would love to buy items for the lowest price advertised without having to worry about the first 10 people not responding too. In fact, considering how much more trades they do than you, it probably benefits them way more, making what they do orders of magnitude easier. GGG would indeed need to police such a system quite heavily, you are correct about that part.
An auction house fixes the problem...people listing a 3 ex item for 1.1 ex and never selling it but flooding the market with 1.1 ex items then buying all of the ones people list for 1 ex is the problem. Auction house removes that issue. And if someone buys up all the magebloods and reprices them then their account needs to be looked at for RMT
If they AH take a healthy commission it makes price fixing a risky strategy. Hard to manipulate it enough to beat the commission and you could be left holding the bag.
we bought our juice with very high differences in price on the first week. sometimes our juice was 1ex per map, the next few hours the map cost went up to 3ex. we didnt care because the return was high enough tho. just wanna say that the supply and demand has changed to last leagues, there are alot items that look pricefixed but they actually arent. in fact, the supply was that low at some point we had to add multiple flipper to get our juice. ggg is and was always aware, if it hits a threshhold they will do smth about it. i think they did aleready with some no replying/afk thing in trade search
@@MrRalphF what's the solution here? You ban people on a f2p game and it literally does nothing because most of these accounts are solely created to manipulate the market. They'll just make more mule accounts after the ban. Literally 0 impact in the long run.
@@thestrider6597 Seems like you aren't in the software industry. These things can be handled, it just takes focus and resources. Not necessarily to 0%, but 98% can be handled.
@@thestrider6597 Give me access to their server and user logs and I'll devise the appropriate solutions (some of which would not be publicized). These things are multifaceted and aren't done with catchy silver bullets, in a vacuum.
@@g76agi An In-game AH will have a system where people can PASSIVELY trade as opposed to how it works now, which is ACTIVE. As such, people tend to not give much of a shit spending too much time researching all the crap they have to do to set the right price. Takes too much time, too many other outside resources, too much clicking. After all, we want to kill monsters and get loot. In a good in-game AH, you can see the current pricing of what buyers AND sellers want to buy and sell things for as well as quantities (as opposed to how it is now where you have to scroll for pages and pages. You can easily see certain trends. Will there be people who buy up large quantities of things in order to price fix? Sure. But it will be much more transparent and allows you to take advantage of them. As it is now, these people are taking advantage of the flaws in the current system to gain an advantage. This wouldn't be the case in an in-game AH as everyone would be on the same playing field and is dealing with a different way of buying and selling. As an example, I've always thought GW2 had an excellent AH system. One fundamental difference is we currently have no way for buyers to set prices. Everything is set by the seller. That alone is a fundamental flaw in our current system. A good AH has both, kind of like a stock and commodities exchange.
also always, ALWAYS, use the collapse per seller function on poetrade when looking for an item. Scammer will list 10 times the same items at a low/high price in an attempt to price fix a low traded item
From the moment you released this video, you are officially our guardian angel. I noticed few ppl list items for less than they worth, but they never responded to me wanting to buy them. So usually, when I see this I plainly ignore them and don't waste my time trying to interact with them. This happens mostly when I trade currencies. Thanks again for keeping your angelic watcher's eye over us.
thats like the basic POE trading experience...
Try to trade a lowcost item, you gotta whisper 10+ people.
i just whisper like 10+ people dont even wait first one to invite first gets the trade fuck the rest
yes you are just to late most of the time... i am faster than you XD just go and pin a item like tailoring orb for 3.9 ex i will buy this item in this moment its online on poe.trade and make my 0.1-0.5 ex Profit.. now its not much but i do this 60-200 times in 1 hour... now you know how to get rich in no time.. and i took the worst example here... i think the problem is more that you dont take your time pricing your items correct. just look up on poe.trade and check more than the first listing... and if you get wispered like 20-30 times after listing a item maybe you rethink about selling it for this price...
I just noticed this as well, nice that you brought this to more people's attention.
This is exactly why, when I sell something for cheap (purposely), I never respond to ANY of the whispers that come in instantaneously. I'll give it a good minute after the first flood to either let the next person who messages me have it, or pick one of the last few to trade with.
I sold a Doctor Card today and the first 4 people that messaged me to buy it tried the bait and switch. If anyone EVER closes the window and tries to re-establish the trade then you should assume they are scamming til you double or triple check the transaction again and again.
Just reverse scam them by throwing in "The Fool" div card when they re open the trade.
price fixing is awfull this league. Almost everything is getting fixed on mass it feels
also for newer players: when selling more common fragments like scarabs check prices on poetrade but ignore the first 1-2 pages or set a filter to at least 10 in stock.
Do not use overlays like awakened poe trade/poe ninja to price check those.
Yeah, I think this is the first time people have worked out how to seriously attack poe.ninja's pricing algorithim. I've known how since 3.3 and never used it.
You can specify the min stock in awakened trade
@@esvban ah right you can in awakened. Only swapped recently my old one coudnt...
Use the TFT scamming prevention tools. It just save you time from interacting with bots and scums.
this comment shows, that you have no idea how trade works in poe. bulk sale prices are always higher than single item sales. poe does not work like real markets in this aspect. ppl pay a premium for the convenience of not having to msg 10 sellers instead of just 1. the market value of 1 sacrab really is 1c, even if the market value of 10 of the same sacrabs is 12 or even 15c.
im commenting just to make sure this video gets recommended as much as possible
Whenever somebody new comes to Poe, first thing they should do is watch all of SirGog’s videos, bless you mate, thank you for amazing content
Thanks for this, i've seen it a bunch of times and it's disgusting man. Preying on noobs for currency is so sad.
You know I really had a feelling this was going on so i've been pricing my stuff quite a chunk higher with some patience for a while and got great results, happy someone is calling this out mate
Unfortunately, if GGG actually cared, they would've done something already YEARS AGO.
Alternatively, the easiest solution to this is pretty easy.
Auction house.
Which tencent PoE already has years ago.
At this point seeing as to how GGG is majorly owned by tencent, it's just funny to think that international PoE is the "smaller" PoE, or what people would call, a "private server".
A good indicator is if you get 2 or tells instantly, your price is too low.
On day 2 of the league I listed dead reckoning for 75c and my cat almost shit herself when my speakers blew up.
I noticed this as well. I had an 8 slot Fire cluster jewel that trade showed as worth 10c. Like several dozen listings at 10c. I listed at 10c and got bombarded with tells within seconds so I knew something was up. Took it off. Waited a bit and relisted at 20c. Immediately bombarded again. Rinse and repeat until 50c where it slowed down a bit, but sold. GGG really needs to stop holding onto this antiquated method of sales. It's clear it's being manipulated and there's absolutely nothing fun about messaging 10-15 people before you get a response.
Have you seem the price of Enlighten Support? I don't know if it's because it's way too rare now but tons of trash corrupted lvl 1 are at 2ex.
I was just about to buy one and was shocked at the 2ex price tag of a corrupted lvl 1 Enlighten. I understand that enlighten is not as build-enabling as it used to be in the past, but this makes no sense. If you actually need it you are in for a ride lol.
Yeah, it is very rare now so the price checks out.
I was wondering why when looking up prices why they were so messed up when Iooked up fragments.
Thank you for this video, I was selling my simulacrum and wondered why it was priced lower than what you could get for 300 splinters.
When GGG does something about these scammers then it is because of the traffic and not because of giving people a less horrible trading time because thats what they actually want.
If u follow the poe trade market, u'll understand that prices went down on 12th cuz its weekend. All higher value currency orbs etc drop down in price during that time..the question is why it didn't went up on Sunday and who was price-fixing them on 14th
I understand GGG not wanting to remove human interaction from the trade system but... An Auction House style system would remove MOST forms of scamming. In this particular case, I think that changing the style of trade system wouldn't affect this form of scamming. But it would help with a large majority of the issues. I feel like if GGG wants human interaction they should just focus on the services aspect and instead of relying on the TFT discord for it, make an in-game option for contacting people for services. This would keep the much needed interaction as well as push it for players who maybe don't like to use a discord server or don't know about it. Then we can get away from this trade system and use a much more secure one.
An AH would specifically prevent this type of dishonesty because you cant list the item at a certain buyout price and still prevent it from selling.
@@Wools Very true. An AH is just an all around good idea for a better trade experience, but I doubt we'll ever see it. Hopefully GGG will realize the benefits of it and at least try changing up the trade system someday.
I don't get the "human interraction" argument of not adopting an AH type system of trade. What interraction there is boils down to a copy paste of the trade request, and if you are lucky, a "TY" once done.
If they want to keep having to go to a players hideout to showcase MTX, that can still be done with an AH.
This league I think, maybe at a stretch, 10% of my trade "interractions" have even bothered with the "TY", the rest trade, dump group, zone out, done.
@@wizzfizz6930 Yeah, it's a very lazy excuse. Honestly all human interaction does for a trade is allow opportunity to ruin someone's experience by scamming them.
It would open doors for gazillion of other scams and trading issues..how many times did you underprice the item and got 20 messages in few seconds..with AH your item is gone and you lost exalts!
bro make a series to save new ppl from unsavory action ur amazing
Keep up the great work, Sirgog. You are much appreciated.
I tend to ignore in the trade site anyone that I know is clearly pricefixing or don't wanna deal with, and I'm AMAZED at how many people I've had to ignore this league compared to previous one.
They already cannot control bots and scammers, so just give us the trade board and lets move on.
This here I will never understand why they believe that having to use an external tool(even if its their own website) to find trades and then message people makes for great gameplay for either the buyer or the seller when there are so many better ways to do it that would make the game overall a lot better for the average person to trade and enjoy
For me this was extremely noticeable when it comes to trying to buy Regrets.Since Regrets now have a extra use (buying Orbs Of Unmaking) the price fixing of them was insane, i am not even joking i spent something like 30 or more minutes and whispered about 30 or more people, all in the top 10 or 15 people selling cheapest and nobody answered, and after that another new person was selling Regrets.I actually gave up and bought them at a "expensive" price, which is probably the REAL price of them, but just the psychological damage this causes is massive, just the thought you could have bought them at 1:1 c ratio rather than 1.5:1 c ratio makes it incredibly hard for you to feel good when you buy them.
the solution for that is to instead sell chaos and indicating a price in regret orb. People that actually try to sell their regret will come to you instead. It might take a little more time but since the market is in high demand for theses it shouldnt be too long
I play exclusively SSF now and I still like these videos.
Trading is by far the worst part of Poe,
I wish every item was part of a boss loot table so with enough grinding trash gamers like me could actually enjoy the game.
With enough grinding trash gamers like you can just buy the items, but the good players can get that amount faster and do something more productive later
I noticed this with the patient. I jsut trade macroed it, didnt want to calcucate the value and put for 20c. Okay insta messages, then i calculate the value relative to the nurse and it should have been 27c. :D put it for 25 and of course it sold.
I gave up on that in Heist. They literally listed 10 of thousands of exalts to push price from 30 40c to 100 120c. Literally in 1 night they pushed price 3 times. Worst part is nobody cared about that at all. Some ppl even said its natural. 1,5 month into league ex jump 3 times. They have the guns and they can do whatever they want with economy. I flip currency when i need some neat piece of gear so i notice this much much more then average player. Even now most of the time you can sell ex for more if u sell it via pm then you can sell it via listing. Economy is bricked and you can exploit it rly rly hard if you fallow those ppl that do that. GGG should look into that coz thats some nasty organization probably that sells that currency for real money.
First league trying SSF. With all of the scams going on, I'm not going back.
Sirgog the POE police represent
"I'm very sorry but it's our policy not to get involved in player item disputes, as we don't have the resources to fully investigate each one and police them.
A player is unlikely to get a ban for scamming, but I've taken a note of the account in question, and will be flagging it to keep an eye on. When players report others for any kind of behaviour, from scamming, to real world trading, to abusing a bug, this goes on their record. If they accumulate an extremely bad reputation then we will look at taking things further or finding other ways to resolve these issues. It frequently occurs that players who have bad reputations are often committing more serious and ban-able offenses."
They are quite literally saying that scamming is allowed but we keep tabs on these accounts in case their future behavior warrants a bannable offense. I still have this person added on my friends list and they are not banned. So, for those of you that are new to the game, just remember, you are an exile trading with other exiles. Getting scammed is literally part of the game.
Plenty of people have been banned for scamming. It's hilarious when they start a crying thread on Reddit over it.
@@sirgog I had video and screenshot evidence of my trade as well as chat logs, which i sent to GGG support. maybe I needed his social security number as well because I don't know what else I could have possibly given them to proceed with a ban.
This has to be RMT, right? What other group would go through the effort?
I suspect so, but I'm not sure. Trade PVP can be vicious in this game sometimes.
Only cheat sites would invest money into this, but it's not at a point that I can rule out this being a few wealthy players in a cartel.
@@sirgog i doubt it being just a few players doing it for fun. If you check poetrade and look at e.g. rusted ambush scarabs the first ~30 entries are all bots price fixing. Most of them have similar names, which points to them being run by the same owners. I doubt anyone would waste so much money on keeping 30 bots permanently up just to scam people out of a few chaos.
I also doubt that this shit is cheap as the bots have to be pretty much permanently logged in in order to keep staying listed.
@@sirgog if they make drops more frequent to everyone not only currency but also the "expensive" uniques and items this will go for ever. The few will destroy the economy and game
Maybe we should allow for human response time when selling items? The first five messages you get, when undercutting listed prices, are usually bots.
Ancient orbs were definitely also supressed so they could accumulate. Normally it would statt running up day 6. Took double that now and hasnt even run up much yet.
Not selling my stack of 200 any time soon at this rate
Can you make a video showcasing the feature in Awakened Poe Trade the shows the quick exalt conversion for .01 to .09? I ran into someone trying to scam me out of a lot of chaos today and i think it would help newer players not get ripped off when selling items for 1.X exalts.
Top left hand corner has little arrows mouse over it
@@gu244 Yeah, I'm just saying it would be helpful to newer players that don't know about this feature.
If they made an auction house system this would go away.
Isn't a decent way to see if you have underpriced an item by not trading it immediately and wait to see if you get spammed by buy requests
In doing that you're going to get constantly spammed and adding to the chaos of under priced items + people not replying.
For generic, high demand, items price it high and keep lowering it every few maps till it sells.
Edit: as someone else said they've been adding those under pricers to ignore, as have I.
You also run the risk of getting mass ignored.
Issue is that you won't get spammed until the live alerts go off. There's a bit of a delay first.
@@sirgog I noticed that changing areas helps speed this up, as I've had a lot of people whispering me for trade the moment I enter or re-enter a map (generally a portal). Probably has something to do with refreshing the trade api, you get the idea
Items are litterally doubling and halving in price overnight.. And the worst part for me is that ggg would ban you for a map reveal but ruining the entire economy and scamming every new player into hating the game is AOK. They need to set their priorities straight (at best like 5 years ago..)
Wonderful PSA! Bravo!
I bought a random Brass dome the other day for like 5 or 10 c or something, I went on today to buy another one and they were all 24 c listed by the exact same guy at least 200 of them. SSF Looking better and better
Share this video so the newer players can understand and spot price fixed items.
I've noticed this on essences... Almost every essence is listed far too cheap on the average but it also seems they no longer require to actually list the items so though it's easier to find out the real price now it became a whole lot more difficult to figure out the why who and how of it all.
well, with essences, there is a huge abundance of them in the market right now. most of them aren't price fixed, the essence nodes just give a dumb amount of stuff.
@@hellboy19991 I'm not talking essence prices being unusually low I'm talking poe.ninja showing a 1c average on 5c essences. Actually listing them 5c sells within the minute as well. Yet no pricefixing behaviour as usual can be seen there's not a ten/twenty fold listings of 1c essences on there by the same person or anything.
If gg chooses and chose not to react, it is maybe because of the mentality that these thing are "3d party". I hope they choose to take action, because I hate it so much, that market manipulation happens and I always feel less effective when playing, just because of the thought of bots doing the job better.
saw already 3 scammers too this league, last leagues there is no one to 1 over the whole league i encounter, now i saw already 3 who were way to publicy and save about there doing.. i dont know what to do against them, but thank you for this video, maybe GGG will atleast think about doing smth against it
the upside of this is I get a lot of instant sells, since I hate trading, I actually prefer trading quickly over making profits...
I listed 16 expedition scarabs and they insta sold, kinda like it tbh, i dont care if I missed out on 1-2c each, they are worthless to me and my time is precious.
But them being listed for higher and waiting 1 more hour to sell isnt taking away your time?
As a certain someone says, always make sure you do your double D's. I always check for prices and make sure I don't scam myself.
This has been done on every league and there's a group of people that do it( they might have a discord dedicated to it). Have done it for year's! This is 1 way some of the rich become super rich.
Some people in the comments seem to have a weird aversion to the word "scam" for some reason.
There are people willing to call it anything else; "dishonest trading"? Sure! "price fixing"? Absolutely! "market manipulation"? Why not? "scamming"? Whoa, taking it a bit far there aren't you sirgog?!
Yeah the test really is "is this dishonest?" - yes. "Is this trading" - yes. "Is this for profit" - yes.
Answer yes to all three, it's a scam.
It flies under the radar more because the consequences to each individual are less than, say, a Doctor/Metalsmith swap.
On the other hand as a poe noob who struggles to make decent currancy I'd rather have 60c for my simulacrum than have it sitting in my stash for a week @ 1ex. Money in the bank is sometimes better than a stash full of stuff that takes a week or two to sell.
Better solution would be, that trading is integrated into the game. can't refresh the trade site 12 times or more per second if it would need a banable account. Also would make trading frictionlesser. Also if trade runs per ingame system you could not try to manipulate the price, because if trade gets automated when someone would pay your price your item you use to scam will be gone.
Gotta say i really love the effort to normalize the calling out of terrible and harmful trade practices. Things like this ruin the trade experience for so many people and nothing will be done about it until its rightfully seen as scamming instead of just something harmless, there is a reason why the older non-official trade sites basically all had reminders to the likes of "Dont trade items for uniques as some people will artificially jack up the price of their unique by buying all of them on the market" because it is a scam to pricefix and it destroys trust and experience in the playerbase
Also if u are getting spammed, NEVER trade the first person that msg u. I always trade the 9th or 10th player :)
Lmao if ur getting 10 msgs as soon an you list an item its because you are pricing it below the cheapest item thats being price fixed...all 10 of those msgs are scammers
And what if you feel good about selling that item, despite selling it for lower the price? I literally don't see this as a loss.
@@GE_Photon_Lord the difference between 1c and 1 ex is about 1 ex..doubke check your items
@@callingyourphone1212 This adds nothing to my comment. Also I bought an expedition's end earlier for 20c instead of 60,do you think I scammed the guy? He said he's good about it, since he wanted to get rid of it quickly. You dont have to always make textbook trades, unless you really need that currency.
@@GE_Photon_Lord the game is about min maxing...maxing for yourself and minimizing for everything else
Staying ssf next time ugh. Switched over to trade for friend.. that quit league 2 days later. Xbox trade is hilarious 😂
Been playing lost ark, but glad to see you're still making great and informative POE content. Keep it up.
Ah shit. Realised this was possible a long time ago when I grossly underpriced an item by accident once and didn't get a million whispers so I sold it and realized my mistake later. That was just one rare non-meta unique people were not trading much at the time but I always thought the trade volumes would be too high for pricefixing "any item that mattered" this way :/
This problem stems from not having an automated auction house. An auction house where the house takes a percentage really limits this sort of problem. Also, trading without an ah late in the league is a real pain.
Taking a % does not work for all currency though.
When will we get instant trading? :’(
Maybe they are price fixed but I have been running a few dozen of them and I could prety much always buy them from live search at 50-60c per and almost everyone invited me instantly..
5:15 I'm always perplexed on people defending unethical conduct as being "part of the game" both online and physical life. US citizens most of all.
It's 100% worse. I've never had to whisper so many people to get certain trades.
Oh, as a new player it only took a few weeks to notice that this was happening on almost every item or currency (not a large segment/sample of the economy to be sure, noobs be poor) I was looking to trade in. Personally I wouldn't call it scamming, but it is certainly a manipulative scheme to boost profit in a dishonest manner so.... I can see why anyone would. Sometimes it can be interesting to try and spot the first few legit listings I guess but mostly it's fukin' annoying and I waste enough of my own time without having someone else do it for me. Part of me thinks: 'that's business', the other thinks: 'Fark off or I'll bitechorefukinFACE Carnt!!'. Cheers for throwing it out there for discussion.
Do they just trade items back and forth to each other through public tabs, ignoring other players? I thought there was no way to confirm stuff was sold though, could just be delisted
They are also doing this. They insell to lower prices at a mass degree. This has an even higher effect on poe.ninja that this, as they literally lower all median prices of items.
I don't want to go into details because I don't want to give steps allowing replication. I'm pretty sure I know exactly what they were doing though.
If that's the case, limit buy orders would be so nice to have. I might even start playing in trading leagues.
same shirt is with mirros,sam e shit with HH, hh from 90 ex went to 130
Great video ty man!
this is what happens when a games ceo has a "Vision" for his game that includes building a massive breeding ground cess pool for scammers instead of just having a commodity AH
Another quick and dirty tip is if you put an item up and you instantly get a butt ton of messages, you severely underpriced it.
Sometimes. Other times it's a high demand item and you slightly underpriced it (e.g. if exalts are trading at 127c and you list one at 126c, expect 50 messages in the next five minutes; same as you'd see if you posted at 86c although only one of those is severely underpriced)
I'm pretty sure the big scammers are also RMTers. Why not just frequently do ban waves per league to make it not profitable for them to do these stuff?
"scamming" is not a bannable offense
I totally that the game as whole would benefit from it, the trade sites have been super slow to load this league, to the point where I often have to come back later and try again when searching from something. One question though, do you think those people are legitimate players who just want to be the most powerful at the expense of others or do they profit in other ways such as rmt?
i either do that or scroll to the bottom when it comes to poe.trade, or path of exile trade, whatever keeps me in the most profit
I usually sell my stuff for less just to get rid of it. If PC says 35 chaos I will ask for 30 chaos
but how do you distinguish
just undervalue trades like " oh i wanna get rid of it quickly i will put it for 10c less"
scammed people doing undervalued trades,
and scammers pumping the undervalued trade records into the data base,
This part imo is difficult
Pricefix scams take very significant effort to do. Bob thinking 'oh exalts are 123c I'll list one at 118c for an instant sale' won't have any impact on the poe.ninja price. It takes really deliberate effort.
See, this is bad, but I've had the inverse; scarabs on poe ninja are so overinflated in price, bulk buying them from TFT actually leads to a loss if you're trying to flip them.
TFT are a little bit dodgy too. Go look into it and draw your own conclusions.
Its been bad on console. We have a much smaller player base. An there is a few guilds maybe like 25-30 people in total. That price fix all kinds of items. An the prices are crazy high. I've seen bottle faiths for 40-60x.
An its been like this for years. It annoying, I mostly playing in a Sudo SSF mode. So I can still run maps with friends. But most of my items I find other ways to get. Or I need to get lucky on TB
Trading in PoE already feels ultra trashy, even worse with these price fixers and the ton of bots and real money traders.
bUt tHe pLaYEr iNteRaCTionS ?!?!
I sold mine for 64c. Felt that I was getting scammed but triple checked the API. Thought it would never sell otherwise if I didn't set the price to what NINJA reported. That, and Kobemamba said simulacrum farming was crashing so I thought it was all good.
People found a way to get a full simu from a single map. My build can't handle it otherwise I'd be doing it. Wouldn't surprise me if this spiked the supply while the demand didn't go up. Guess I'll be spamming legion while the prices still pseudo hold then swap to something else.
kind of easy to avoid, these scammers have competition and you get like 10 whispers that's when red flags should be popping up in mind xD
the fact that people put such elaborate amount of effort into scamming is beyond me… like it’s a fucking video game where should be to just have fun…
market manipulation and market monopoly are really bad for the player experience in game but i don't think they classify as scams
IRL law considers this sort of market manipulation (fabricating a false price history to deceive buyers and sellers) as fraud. There's a bunch of people in the art world who did prison time for this.
Just price all your items ( worth 1+ ex ) to 1c and go afk. Enjoy the chaos
Here are a few steps to reduce the risk of getting scammed:
1. List Item for a price
2. if you get spammed within seconds, raise price by 20%
3. if you still get spammed with new price, raise by another 20%
4. repeat until no more messages and then lower it abit.
Dont feel obligated to commit to every trade that you have listed.
weird. I have been consistently buying 60c simulacrums with no problems, maybe the price has genuinely dropped in the 9 days since you posted this video?
It has since, yeah. Simul was higher then
@@sirgog gotcha!
Came in with kind of mixed feelings and thought I would disagree based on the title. But after thinking about it actually agree totally. I noticed that pattern with your content in the past too. Keep it up and thanks for making me think about those topics :)
Auction hall might be more secure but it's coming up with less fun aspect.
If losing time in order to buy some stuff is fun, then yeah I'd like to lose it.
Price fixing gets worse and worse every league it was awful last league and it’s even worse this league. I don’t understand it the people that are usually doing these price fixes have more currency then they will ever spend in a league but they price everyone out of fun.
My strategy for dealing with this similar to yours but the other way around, I put my item at the price I believe its worth and if I immediately get a dozen people asking for it I slowly raise the price until I'm no longer getting spammed, then I sell it.
Issue is that this increases the negative trade experience many people have. I know that some content creators suggested the method you described but it would really benefit the trade system if people would instead do it like sirgog described in his video. Same time investment, but much less people being unhappy.
Its pretty easy to not fall for this. If you ever put something up and get spammed by 5 different people instantly, its probably up for too cheap
I swear i set the items im looking for on live search so as soon as its put up ill be first to buy its so bullshit you can never beat a bot
I don't think GGG has ever banned a scammer, have they?
Yep, there's been a number of posts on Reddit from people saying "help, GGG banned me for no reason" and when Redditors did a little digging they found out the accounts in question were scammers.
@@sirgog But were they banned for doing scams, or were they banned for something else while being a scammer, like insulting someone after a scam or something, thats a quick ban
Yeah that was a strange thing for me aswell
But no sir, this is not a scam mafia
Its just sad reallity
You can go and set bulk of a simulacrums at 5+
And you will see that like 30ish people selling them for 0.6ex in bulk
I was selling my sims aswell in bulk nope my dms wasnt exploded after i listed them
and once again this wouldnt happen if we could just have an auction house in game where you can list an item for a price and other people can just buy it and you get the price you asked back. chris can keep shotuing to the sky how ssfhc is the real way to play poe but if ur gonna make every other experience miserable im not gonna play the fucking game.
Every league it becomes worse and worse and bothing happens. If they change the whole trading system into an auction house for example this will never stop.
>get pinged 10 times in half a second
Nuh uh buddy, I think I'll do a manual appraisal this time instead of leaving it to Awakened PoE Trade.
yhea the realy need to stop price fix stuf, imagn if just every body price fair how mutch time that save and server load on the API, ore the need to build in a offline system that just have knowledge and right valeu,s on items
Ban people who are running thousands (or dozens) of PCs? How? They can't even keep the currency sellers under control. I am disappointed in your conclusion here.
What GGG needs is to do is introduce an automated trading system. Then they would have all the tools they need to minimize the impact of price fixing, scamming, etc. I know I'd love to buy items for the lowest advertised price without having to worry about the first 10 people not responding.
I bet the market manipulators would love to buy items for the lowest price advertised without having to worry about the first 10 people not responding too. In fact, considering how much more trades they do than you, it probably benefits them way more, making what they do orders of magnitude easier. GGG would indeed need to police such a system quite heavily, you are correct about that part.
An auction house fixes the problem...people listing a 3 ex item for 1.1 ex and never selling it but flooding the market with 1.1 ex items then buying all of the ones people list for 1 ex is the problem.
Auction house removes that issue. And if someone buys up all the magebloods and reprices them then their account needs to be looked at for RMT
If they AH take a healthy commission it makes price fixing a risky strategy. Hard to manipulate it enough to beat the commission and you could be left holding the bag.
Agreed on all points
Couldn't agree more. We need some standard prices from GGG in order to not have price manipulation at least
we bought our juice with very high differences in price on the first week. sometimes our juice was 1ex per map, the next few hours the map cost went up to 3ex. we didnt care because the return was high enough tho. just wanna say that the supply and demand has changed to last leagues, there are alot items that look pricefixed but they actually arent. in fact, the supply was that low at some point we had to add multiple flipper to get our juice. ggg is and was always aware, if it hits a threshhold they will do smth about it. i think they did aleready with some no replying/afk thing in trade search
Yeah I'm not talking wild fluctuations in price here, that's a very different matter that would look very different in Ninja's history
There really is no easy fix to marketplace price manipulation. All anyone can do is be vigilant.
Not true. Don't be a defeatist. It just takes focus and resources (from GGG, not you though).
@@MrRalphF what's the solution here? You ban people on a f2p game and it literally does nothing because most of these accounts are solely created to manipulate the market. They'll just make more mule accounts after the ban. Literally 0 impact in the long run.
@@thestrider6597 Seems like you aren't in the software industry. These things can be handled, it just takes focus and resources. Not necessarily to 0%, but 98% can be handled.
@@MrRalphF still not seeing you providing this 98% effective solution though.
@@thestrider6597 Give me access to their server and user logs and I'll devise the appropriate solutions (some of which would not be publicized). These things are multifaceted and aren't done with
catchy silver bullets, in a vacuum.
One more reason why GGG needs a real, robust, in-game AH.
What would that fix in this case exactly? People will still price their items cheaper than everyone else
@@g76agi An In-game AH will have a system where people can PASSIVELY trade as opposed to how it works now, which is ACTIVE. As such, people tend to not give much of a shit spending too much time researching all the crap they have to do to set the right price. Takes too much time, too many other outside resources, too much clicking. After all, we want to kill monsters and get loot. In a good in-game AH, you can see the current pricing of what buyers AND sellers want to buy and sell things for as well as quantities (as opposed to how it is now where you have to scroll for pages and pages. You can easily see certain trends. Will there be people who buy up large quantities of things in order to price fix? Sure. But it will be much more transparent and allows you to take advantage of them. As it is now, these people are taking advantage of the flaws in the current system to gain an advantage. This wouldn't be the case in an in-game AH as everyone would be on the same playing field and is dealing with a different way of buying and selling.
As an example, I've always thought GW2 had an excellent AH system. One fundamental difference is we currently have no way for buyers to set prices. Everything is set by the seller. That alone is a fundamental flaw in our current system. A good AH has both, kind of like a stock and commodities exchange.