DRIVER ANGLE OF ATTACK // How much is too much? Hitting up on the ball
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- Опубликовано: 25 июл 2024
- With so much discussion around optimization through driver angle of attack and hitting up on the ball, we ask the question - can you hit too much up on the ball, and how do you balance distance with control?
0:00 // Intro
2:03 // Negative Angle of Attack
4:27 // Positive Angle of Attack
6:50 // 3-Wood Demonstration
12:00 // Optimization
14:00 // Results & Conclusions
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Filmed at: Tour Experience Golf
Custom Golf Club Fitting Studio - Toronto, Canada 
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My dream job; being an average swing speed guy at a technology filled golf center.
Great job Mike! I’m truly envious.
Great video! More videos with Mike please! He's absolutely a very good golfer but more of "peoples golfer" that more of us can relate to.
Thanks boys for this video, really needed it. Recently went to a shop with the idea of getting a driver fitting, wound up just trying out a few drivers in the bay at my own pace instead. Shocker, regardless of what driver I pulled off the rack the results didn't change. I have an average swing speed, hit up on the ball, and a huge dispersion. Back to the range I go with a 3W and work on optimizing strike driver strike point. Tremendous stuff.
Excellent video! I swing 5 up and suffer from some bad dispersion. I am absolutely going to try to level my AoA out a bit and see what happens with my dispersion. Thanks!
Was very good to watch this video. My fit last week with Mike showed a lot of the same tendencies. This video allowed me to go over them in detail and absorb the info. I have something new to work on tomorrow. Thanks boys!
Great video. I was struggling with low point being too far forward and in lessons I’ve been working on hitting more up and the feeling of staying behind the ball for driver. I’ve started to get toe hits similar to what Mike was seeing. Will see how the ball position helps with this. Top class as usual Boys 🔴⚪️🔵
Found this little gem after finding my 3 wood is consistently longer than driver and shot shaping easy.
Trying to lean back and hit up on driver has been killing me with poor strikes leading to snap hooks and straight right blocks😮.
Can't wait to get to the range and tee it lower and put my 3 wood swing on driver
And this is why seeing Mike hit shots is great ! That was really interesting as I have similar swing speed to Mike but I’m not delivering the same carry numbers. Lots to think about and work on 👍🏻
brill loved this would like more on this sort of things with all woods and irons well done to you both thanks
Brilliant insight into fitting, more of theses please guys 👍👍
Another great video, when on form I hit the driver further than most playing mates over the past 30 years or so however as we're all being pushed to hut up for the high launch low spin, I also go through some terrible times off the toe as either pull hooks or pushes to the right. Trying too much to 'hit up' on the ball the most likely issue. Great explanation...
Love this video guys. Can’t wait for my fitting in May.
This was really, really helpful - my swing speed is right around Mike's - 98-102mph but my driver is carrying like 230 and rolling out to 250 (our course has GC Hawks) so I think it's time to go get fit! I do have an upward angle of attack around 2-3 degrees. My setup clearly can be improved.
Fantastic video fellas!! I have a similar strike point and higher angle of attack. Got a few things to try on the range.
A very appropriate video for my current problem, a neutral attack angle. I think some of that is, as I have gotten older, I don't get onto my left side as well as I did when I was younger. I am going to go to Club Champion close to where I live and see if I can find a driver/shaft combo that helps me achieve more consistency.
Great stuff! I really like these types of videos
wow...great video and applicable to my situation,your buddy and i have have similiar numbers so great apples to apples example,,ty brother
Thanks for the chart. Interesting info.
Makes so much sense. I have 152-155 ball speed and carry from 230-270 if I catch it nice. Tend to be 1-2°up but low heel strikes with around 2800-3500rpm spin
Thanks Guys for another great TXG vid👍👍
I must admit that I haven't got a Scooby-Doo what my current AoA is with my Driver swing, so I need to get myself on a launch monitor. I suspect that it might be a tad more than is optimal. I do know that I have a tendency to have the ball too far forward at address, which leads to a low heel strike. So I have to keep reminding myself to move the ball back slightly
Great video as always guys.
Mike seems so much more comfortable in front of the camera than he did a year ago. Good to see.
Great video, something little can make such a big difference 👍
Hi, Gents
Thank you for an awesome channel with loads of information. Love seeing the stats provide explains a lot more on what impact a small change has on ball flight and behavior.
I do have a question:
Where does your clubface need to line up with the ball on setup is the ball in the middle of the clubface or more on the toe or heel?
Also, what is the impact of setting up on the heel or toe?
Thank you Nico
Your videos are great and by your accent, it’s clear you know what you’re talking about. 😁😉👍
Just what I needed
When I went to a flat feeling fade, I hit almost as far as trying high draw, but much more center strikes and less punishment when it duck hooked. Iron swing needs more love. would love to hear more on the 2 different swings.
Definitely agree that hitting up too much can cause issues. I have noticed when I hit too much up, I tend to drop kick the driver into the ball. I also get stuck on my back side which causes a massive slice because I can’t get through the ball, or I then overcompensate and flick my hands at the ball and hit a massive hook. If I’m too down on my attack angle, I hit cut stingers. What a frustrating game lol
Thanks Ian and Mikey!
I swing it at 114 - 118 gamer on course , It’s finding a balance , when I drive the ball poorly I’m hitting the ball 5 up or so and catching it very low on the face spinning it at like 3200, driving well I feel I’m hitting down a bit and at like 2 to 3 up getting about 2500 spin , with a much higher strike on the head , these numbers are based on trackman ,
Man oh man is this me. It feels so good to see actual data on a swing so similar to mine.
I've been a fade player my entire life (25 years of golf) and 2-3 times I've tried to switch to a draw to pickup yards. Every time my dispersion goes crazy and my scores go up. This video does a great job of reminding all of us that chasing a few yards can sometimes be foolish (because other things will get worse).
True, besides if you get your numbers right there's no distance difference between both shapes
@@aidangriffiths5075 Very true!
@@aidangriffiths5075 I will disagree with that. if done in control a draw will go further than a fade every time. Its why 95% of pros use a draw or straight filght and only fade for specific shots.
I play a consistent draw with my irons and i can hit a 175 carry 7 iron all day long. I dont think i’ve ever hit a 175 fade…ever. With the driver i struggle to draw consistently, but when i do its miles further than my fades, like 20-30 yards easily.
Final thoughts. Theres a reason most golfers aspire to draw the ball. I dont believe in 35 yrs as avid golfer ive ever come across someone saying they wish they could fade the ball more.
@@fuzzybanana3870 that's simply not true 👍
@@aidangriffiths5075 well it is true and i’ll give you a free lesson why if you like. If we are talking total distance a draw will 9 outta 10 go further than a fade because of spin or lack there of, and attack angle. A fade may carry further, but stops faster. A draw produces less dynamic loft/lower attack angle/lower ball flight and decreases spin so it will produce faster ball speed and roll much further than fade. A fade increases dynamic loft/higher attack angle/higher loft which increases spin therefore stopping faster.
Now if we talk carry distance, and who cares about that other than fitters, a fade may carry equal to or farther. 99% of golfers care about where the ball stops, and with a draw it will be futher.
Great vid! 👍
I was working with my pro and this was our discussion. I am 2 to 3 up with a draw. I will game it as it is.
Awesome, I believe I have the same problem. I spin out way more on my back foot when trying to hit up. Also around the 5 degrees up. Have a 2 way miss and also an O-I path very similar.
Time to experiment, thanks.
I love watching these types of vids where you've got a guy that really relates to most of us with a clubhead speed in the 100 mph range. I'm really surprised that those efficiency numbers were so high (most of them in the 1.4something range) with the strikes being so far away from center. In any case, i really liked the vid. What's the cost of getting a driver fitting with this sort of attention?
Was just having a similar conversation yesterday in the simulator with a buddy. My angle of attack is close to hitting down but I get more out of it rather than trying to hit up.
wow perfect video.. Thank you
Well done boys
I love to try to his the high bomb, but I have kinda had to dial that back due to great inconsistency. Now I try to remember its a "drive" and really try to drive through the ball vs trying to send it to the moon. I kinda keep Brooks Koepka in mind vs the classic dream of Rory or Brysons towering draws.
Ian is such a fitting God, so experienced!! So Impressive!
How much of a difference can angle of attack be influenced by ball placement and weight distribution?
Great video, btw!
I just purchased the new Rogue. I was fitted for the Max LS 10.5 with 65g Stiff Tensi White shaft. I hit this better than anything I have ever hit, but I noticed spin was on the higher side - 2500 on average. The fitter assured me that was the preferred spin rate for higher launching ball flights especially in Las Vegas since the ball travels well here. Whether it is correct or not, the Rogue has definitely out performed my former driver in just two rounds.
Hi. From a physics point of view your fitter isn't wrong. The thinner the atmosphere the less the spin affects flight characteristics. Back spin rotation of the ball creates a differential in air pressure which results in lift. Lower the air pressure, lower the lift, less drag. So you can get away with a slightly higher spin rate without losing measurable distance. Changing the golf ball can manage that spin rate as well.
Great video lads!! Best in a while. Great to see Mikey hitting balls. And great chemistry with Ian and Mike!
Truly alchemy. Tee height, ball position, angle of attack, driver loft/lie/weight settings, launch angle, backspin, sidespin, swing speed, strike location, peak height, angle of descent, dispersion and consistency. Seems like a single fitting session is really not enough.
Can you guys show peak height in your data? Also can you tell us which peak height is optimal with what kind of wind speeds?
Cheers
Im trying to flatten out my AoA a bit as we speak. I deloft the club quite a bit naturally and average 5-6 up on AoA. That leads to 10/1800 balls which is no bueno. Toe strikes can get in the 3 digits.
Mikey is carrying close to the same yardage with his three wood, and roll out, that he was getting with his driver before Ian teased him into moving the ball back in his stance and trying for a shallower angle of attack. That would make his three wood a viable insurance fairway finder for sure.
I also took away the notion that he needs more down on his fairway wood AOA, to get more launch angle, height and backspin.
Looking forward to see THAT training/testing session with Mikey. I know I would benefit from it.
Interesting to see Mike's swing changes as you direct him to change hi angle of attack. Downward angle created more of a slide into the ball vs a turn through the ball and an upward attack was the opposite. Equipment affects motion. Put a slightly higher lofted driver in Mike's hands and he would naturally level out his angle of attack, whereas a low lofted club would cause an upward strike motion.
I was literally just googling how much is too much upward attack angle.
Great video! Can you explain why Mikes 3W club speed was almost as high as driver? Seems like he should pick up more speed than that. Asking for a friend… who might have a similar issue…
:)
Great video. So a toe striker should put the ball a little farther back in their stance and swing more towards the right, i.e., a draw swing, to start hitting closer to the center of the club face, less over the top.
wish all fitters were more like you Ian. I would love to be fit by someone with your style. when is the next fitting give away/drawing?
I need to make a trip to Toronto!
As much as I loved Matt and Ian's rapport, I'm imagining what this video would have been like with Matt trying to manufacture a swing with too much angle of attack.
Next video fitting mike for the new driver!
While it was neat to have a guy like Matty who could change his swing and still produce amazingly consistent strikes, this video is far more "real."
I'm 40, out of shape, and swing around 105 mph when warm; same speed category as Mike here.
My misses look a ton like the "too much up" shown in this video; 5 up, low on the head, spinny. Just watching him swing, it also looks like he's getting stuck on his back side; which is what I feel like I'm experiencing too. My miss is heel, not toe, but seems like the root cause is similar.
Most of drives in my last round were weak, balloony push slices carrying only about 230 or so, with a couple ugly pull hooks thrown in when I was overcompensating. Yeah, it's winter, but I had to hit a ton of long iron approaches where I'm normally hitting short or mid.
Have a new driver on the way; not expecting new equipment to fix anything, but will be interesting to try to put some of these swing thoughts into practice while playing with the new toy.
I have been working on angle of attack and tee height to try and get more distance, a key thing at my age (will be 81 in three weeks). Just a couple of comments. You did not vary tee height to enable a more positive AofA. I have moved the tee and ball position to be off my left toe or just barely inside it and am using a higher tee, about 3 1/4 inches or a bit higher. I do find that if you are not careful you can wind up hanging back on your right foot, causing the driver face to be open and cause an overly high and far right trajectory, not what you want. I find that it helps a bit to avoid tilting the right shoulder down too much and keeping the shoulders just a bit more level. I also changed my driver's settings from 10.5 degrees all neutral to 9.5 degrees and -1 draw. Driver is a Callaway GBB Epic Sub Zero with a Graphite Design Tour AD-IZ 6 stiff flex shaft. Since I do not have access to either a Foresight Quad or Trackman, I cannot tell exactly what the data are, but so far the results seem to be positive.
On the subject of AofA, you may have seen two AofA robot tests by Golf Magazine on April 28. The first used a 10.5 degree driver swung at 95 mph. It showed there was a loss of 17 yards in distance between a 0 AofA and a -4 AofA, and a 4.7 yard gain going from 0 AofA to +4 AofA. So almost 22 yards difference with the same driver and swing speed. The second one compared a 10.5 degree lofted driver with a 9.0 degree loft at 95 mph. At +2 AofA, the 9.0 degree driver was 14 yards longer than the 10.5. This is why I lowered the loft on my driver to 9.5 from 10.5. I wish I could see what the actual results are, but my range does not have a studio. Maybe I will have to pay for a driver fitting, not to buy a new driver, but just to see if these changes are producing better spin and distance. I also would like to see which ball gives me the best result. Definitely not use range balls. Here are the links: golf.com/gear/drivers/gain-17-yards-simple-driver-change-robotest/. and golf.com/gear/robottest-angle-of-attack-driver-ii/
Mikey is lucky to have the guru watching over his game!!!!! Hopefully see some results from that soon!!!!!😉
😂😂😂 don’t listen that wee #### Yeaman.
New video idea.
For the budget golfer, that doesnt have acces to quad or simmilar. How to get and idea about path, face angle, AoA etc. Without quad or trackman
Brilliant content, love it! AOA is something I have been working on a lot lately, and this video is so helpful.
I have to say, I like the new setup. Matt was great to watch but it did become a little boring seeing 330-yard drive followed by 340 drive and so on, whichever driver was being tested. In the end, I was fast-forwarding to the conclusions, whereas I watch every second of this.
Even though the focus of this session was AoA, I was surprised Mike didn't move a hair closer to the ball as every drive in the initial section was low and off center toward the toe.
I would be interested to see these shots outside. I feel at that swing speed 1800 12 launch would drop out the sky and not carry 250
I was at the most recent Genesis Invitational last week, and I was SHOCKED at how LOW professionals tee up their driver. There was many I saw whose ball was barely (if at all) above the top of the driver head when tee'd. I realize they play a different game than we do, but I couldn't help but think... "wow, they're leaving a lot of yards on the table with that delivery/tee height" or "wow, imagine if pro's actually OPTIMIZED their launch conditions... yikes!"
This is exactly why I play 3 wood of the tee even though I’ve got 800 or more tied into a Driver (speeder Evo 3 with Sim 9.0) . Just know why I pull the M2 3 wood I’m getting 250-260 off the tee in the fairway. One day I’ll figure the driver out and it will be 285-300.
I tend to pop it up when I really try to hit up
Kyle Berkshire hits like 8-10 up on it. No way you lose distance if you have a properly fit your club to it
Update: I thought this was a distance question, my bad, dispersion completely changes how I feel about extreme angles of attack
Let's just disregard Kyle's swing speed being superhuman.....
And same guy is saying that on the course you should hit max 3 deg up.
Dude, that’s not the point of the video!! Kyle is a long drive competitor, not 1 of the top 1000 players in the world would be anywhere near 8-10 up. We’re not talking about losing distance on the 1 out of 10 that you manage to hit out the middle of the club. We’re talking about maximizing driver performance, distance, accuracy and predictability.
Really interesting and relatable seeing Mikey hit, have you changed anything on the audio lately? Sounds a little bit peaky and muffled on the consonants particularly Ians mic
how do you move the strike to the middle or slight toe side
Would there be a difference playing a 9 degree head further forward promoting upward angle of attack and a 10.5 degree head slightly back of the stance with a slightly downward of attack?
If they measure slightly different would you aim for a different number with trackman vs Gcquad?
...I think a lot of people would be better with their total driving if they hit less positive/more negative and used a higher lofted driver. But even some of the best pros with 10.5 degrees still hit negative, like Brooks, but of course his swing speed and ball striking are next level.
How did you move the strike down? Just tee hight?
Curious to see RB’s AoA to see how it compares to ideal windows for his driver fitting.
Think this was maybe a wink wink nudge nudge vid for RB.
Mikey and I have the same swing!!
That’s great the $1000 question how do you change it?
It’s going to be different for everyone, depends on why you’re doing it wrong in the first place.
Ok, we need to see the new driver fit now lol
is the ping chart based on trackman or foresight AOA?
Great video! A couple follow-up questions:
If the ideal AoA on Foresight is 2.5-3, what would that look like on Trackman?
If you can control strike point, would it be beneficial to have a higher AoA?
Thanks in advance. Keep up the great work!
Shawn Clements daughter strikes like 8 degrees up and drives around 300 yards with a 104 swing speed !!! I didn’t even think it was possible.
@@3spressoShot She’s at the edge of optimizing for distance, that’s for sure. Personally, I don’t think 5 to 6 degrees is that extreme, which is where I live. I have an off-the-shelf set up and will get it out there 280 w/ 100 mph club head speed on a Foresight system w/ normalized conditions. I purchased a used Ping 400 10.5 turned down to about 9. Regular flex. Instead of fitting the club to my messed-up swing, I focused on making changes to my delivery. Over the course of about 9 months I picked up about 50 yards.
I %100 ditto the comment below!!!
I had a lil whack on a GC Quad and I was up anywhere between 7.5 and 8.5, didn't even realise it was that extreme. Need a lesson me thinks
I'm surprised you never mentioned anything about tee height? 🤔
Wasn’t necessary as you can see by the final result. We spoke about alignment and weight pressure, that was it.
@@clubchampionmedia That's true. I guess I was just curious to see what Mike's natural swing would look like with the ball tee'd up a bit since he was just catching it low 👍
With due respect to Mike, It’s good to see someone with dispersion and distance at a level below you (Ian) & (previously Matt). It seems better when you both hit the balls, (gives a wider perspective). I realise you can’t spend your life making these videos lol 👍🏾
Kyle Berkshire is 8 degrees up is he not? Or more? Any dispersion problems there?
What is the T being used on the ground? It looks fancy
we use these: birteegolf.com/
Try teeing it up higher.. all the long drivers like Kyle and Bryson tee it way up
Why is tour average -1 down if up is the best way to go?
Mainly to control spin and dispersion. With the speed most pros have, the distance is there but accuracy can get inconsistent with being too positive.
On trackman I hit 7 degrees up with a 14 degree launch angle , about 110 mph swing speed at around 3 degrees from the inside. Any tips?
A couple of things that work for me when I start hitting too much up are 1) teeing the ball lower and/or 2) having my shoulders flatter in my setup instead of dropping my trailing shoulder. I also like to rehearse my takeaway to be more neutral or even away from my body to try and even out my path
Yeah keep it up.
What is your dynamic loft, back spin, and total distance?
@@dm4789 around 10, 2200 and (subject to strike) 300, 275-280 cary
@@adammonk6565 Those are solid numbers. If your ball striking is consistent, I’m not sure I’d change anything.
Never been this early
I hope we see a follow up fitting for Mikey
Not sure if this was addressed... but WHY does hitting too much up on it efffect strike? I would think that would be player specific...?
“Hit down on it more”. Proceeds to start roping (mostly) great fairway finders.
Looked like his spin loft was through the roof and the ball wa spinning higher when he was hitting it > +5 angle of attack.
Personally I find anything under 2000 rpm to be suspect to the FS Low spin boost and don't trust it. Great job Hitting Mike! I wish my smash factor was as good as yours!
I paid $5k for custom clubs from club champion in March, they said 3-4 weeks. I still don’t have them.
The downward angle was horrid dispersion as well, how do you blame the poor contact point on a "too much" positive angle of attack?
Poor strike consistency and too much face rotation.
@@clubchampionmedia A good point but can we be sure there is more face rotation? It is certainly more closed, but could that be a grip fix?
His path was nearly 6x in variance. Can that be applied to AofA or just variance his his swing when attempting to swing differently?
I'm curious what would have happened if he kept his same delivery but used a higher tee
He’d still be hitting it in the toe, perhaps worse!!
@@clubchampionmedia Okay. Thanks.
Confusing video…you are talking about AoA but then you are talking about face strike control.
what does AoA have to do with strike control . I understood AoA optimizes potential distance but if one is striking off centre on toe and low then is this not more a shaft and or swing issue? Just trying to understand this.
Seems like the tee is too low with driver.....
What happened to the other guy on this show? The American?