What Happened to Meritocracy? With Douglas Murray | The TRUTH Podcast #9
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- Опубликовано: 22 июл 2024
- In this thought-provoking episode, the host engages in a spirited discussion with Douglas Murray, author and commentator, about meritocracy, societal success, and the cultural minefield we find ourselves in today. They explore the implications of focusing on equity and equality of outcome, the potential for demoralization in certain groups, and the paradox of societal progress. They also touch on the importance of distinguishing between admiration and respect, as well as the significance of equality in the eyes of God and civic equality, as foundational values for a healthy society. Join the conversation and discover insights into the complexities of today's world.
#merit #esg #vivek2024
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Douglas Murray is a British author and journalist, best known for his books "The Madness of Crowds" and "The Strange Death of Europe: Immigration, Identity, Islam," both bestsellers and critically acclaimed. He has been a contributor to The Spectator since 2000 and Associate Editor since 2012. Born in 1979, Murray's first book, "Bosie: A Biography of Lord Alfred Douglas," was published while he was an undergraduate at Oxford. In 2007, he founded the Centre for Social Cohesion, which later merged with the Henry Jackson Society, where he served as Associate Director until 2018. Murray is a prolific debater, appearing on numerous political debate programs and engaging with prominent opponents.
Time-codes:
[00:00] Introduction to the podcast and the topic of meritocracy.
[01:05] Vivek challenges the left to define merit.
[02:04] Douglas Murray defines merit and discusses equality.
[05:27] Focusing on utilizing talent in society.
[07:29] Justifications for meritocracy.
[08:10] Demoralization and potential in certain groups.
[20:50] Exposing the underlying issues of culture wars.
[22:09] Concerns about the erosion of meritocracy.
[23:33] Deflection and the culture wars.
[25:41] Role of left and right in perpetuating culture wars.
[27:33] Responding to cultural issues.
[30:35] Challenges of defining a woman today.
[31:10] Addressing underlying economic problems.
[33:54] Debating the focus on cultural issues.
[35:03] Minefield analogy for cultural traps.
[36:20] Envisioning life without cultural "mines".
[40:01] The paradox of success and societal progress.
[41:22] Focus on wealth distribution vs. wealth creation.
[45:55] Shift from admiring heroism to victimhood.
[48:03] Equality in the eyes of God and civic equality.
Any candidate willing to speak with Douglas Murray has not only my respect, they also have my vote.
Everytime I watch one of v’s Podcasts I’m reminded of who I’ll be voting for
Yes but I do think we have to all come together to vote for the candidate that wins the nomination because if we get mad and decide to just not vote then we will have more of the same sh$t we are having.
Vivek is great and totally relatable which is a lovely thing
Who did you vote for last time?
If the reps could get him through the primary he would clean up in the general against Biden or Newsome.
I'd like to see Vivek and DeSantis on a ticket.
I always say that I'm glad that Douglas comes down on the side of good, because I'd hate to ever have to debate him
I can listen to Douglas for hours. He’s an absolute legend.
I wish to judge Douglas Murry by his actions. He posts on his RUclips channel that they should put up posters of the Jewish children killed October 7 attacks. So I posted that's a great idea, so long as we put up posters of the Palestinian children killed in the retaliation. His RUclips channel removed my post. I posted it three times to be sure. They took it down three times. Douglas Murry (or his team) deleted alternative views. He's a coward.
Finally, a presidential candidate with an upper quartile IQ.
IQ doesn't matter, we need a leader
Douglas Murray is a British treasure.
As both a non-British and non-American, I resent the "national treasure" narrative. These intellectuals are global treasures.
Douglas has such a brilliant way of getting things across in such a concise, clear way. Great episode.
What? He takes 30 seconds to get to almost any point. That aint concise, bud.
@@jlinds3171 choosing your words wisely is a virtue, even with the pauses he gets his points across a lot more concisely & coherently than most.
@@c.chinaski3156 - Nicely done!
@@c.chinaski3156 Concise is getting a point across quickly and effectively. Not meandering and parking on a point til you lose people's interest. Y'all are fans, I get it. But dude aint concise.
@@jlinds3171 Concise means brief, yet including all the important points. Sometimes it takes more than 30 seconds to get the important points across. Hell, sometimes it takes several minutes. Having a deadline like that is just ignorant.
If taking too long of a time to get important points across loses your interest, then the problem is clearly you, not the speaker.
Douglas?! Vivek knows who to bring on for sure! Awesome work man, you’re absolutely someone to look out for!
There are few men in America I respect more than these two, but I must say I am dumbfounded that they believe America could have a required or voluntary time of service for young people. The right of center controls no institution that could manage this task, so any service would simply be an extension of the indoctrination of the present education and political system. In order to restore America one must rehab higher ed...something unlikely to happen anytime soon.
RAMASWAMY 2024
Love this guy.
🎉🎉🎉
As VP.
Michael Malice and now Douglas Murray? Every time I see Vivek he looks better and better, having better and better discussions. Cheers!
I like when Vivek says "I didn't know that". I like humility.
YAAAAAS
Kidding, but yes, it is lovely to hear people in the public eye admit what they don't know. It doesn't take away from their intelligence. It does add depth to the person you see on screen
I think him being relatively youthful (dont jump on me, the current president is beyond avg age of death and has had 2 aneurysms) helps in that respect, he knows he has time to learn off of respectful learned individuals
I would like for both of them to research the percentage of the Atlantic slave trade which went to Central and South America.
@@TheMightyMidgetold dudes are usually wise, the president is a life long criminal
Two highly intelligent men demonstrating their merit simply by their conversation. Gender, color, are immaterial. Intelligence matters. Skin color and gender do not. Thank you for your fine work gentlemen
Exactly. Well said!
Very well said.
Vivek has my trust, confidence and my vote.
He is clearly very knowledgeable when it comes to politics, American internal politics in particular, but he clearly has a long way to go when it comes to foreign policy, which is a huge part of what the leader of the government has to deal with. He is not ready, but given a few years (let's say 4 or 8) he has the potential to affect real change.
@@renx81 Vivek has a 50 minute podcast outlining his foreign policy, everyone else offers sound bites the fit a bumper sticker.
To you, who, as a candidate or serving in office has offered a more detailed and succinct foreign agenda than Vivek Ramaswamy? I don't think you have any details to go on, from any of them.
@@johntempest267 You're right. I'm only going by what I've seen him discuss on a handful of long form discussions I've seen him in. I will locate and check out the podcast you mention, perhaps it will change my mind on his readiness.
I feel like I should clarify, that I am not an American, which is why I might be more biased towards the foreign policy aspect, whereas most of his discussions I've seen have been with other Americans who naturally are more interested in other aspects of his politics.
Douglas is one of the greatest minds of our time. Long may he continue to speak the truth.
I wish to judge Douglas Murry by his actions. He posts on his RUclips channel that they should put up posters of the Jewish children killed October 7 attacks. So I posted that's a great idea, so long as we put up posters of the Palestinian children killed in the retaliation. His RUclips channel removed my post. I posted it three times to be sure. They took it down three times. Douglas Murry (or his team) deleted alternative views. He's a coward.
The last segment is absolutely brilliant. Required civil service of some form would bring back the sense of community America has lost 🙏🏻
What a brilliant person and visionary Vivek is! America would be fortunate to have such a person as its next President
He will never win the Republican primary but should get the VP. However he has to get through a couple of MAGA Republicans.
It’s always a privilege to listen to Douglas. I learn something new every time.
I already admire Mr. Murray very much….and I’m starting to admire Mr. Ramaswamy very much….he’s extremely intelligent.
I wish to judge Douglas Murry by his actions. He posts on his RUclips channel that they should put up posters of the Jewish children killed October 7 attacks. So I posted that's a great idea, so long as we put up posters of the Palestinian children killed in the retaliation. His RUclips channel removed my post. I posted it three times to be sure. They took it down three times. Douglas Murry (or his team) deleted alternative views. He's a coward.
Finally, a Presidential candidate who truthfully addresses grievances without mealy mouthed candy coating and deflection.
Your attention, please everyone:
If Vivek Ramaswamy & The Donald can't start America on a trajectory towards revival for security and prosperity across the land, no one can. I challenge anyone else to come forward with a more promising chance of successfully bringing back a booming economy and uniting the country. It's the dawn of a new era. 🌄
It’s too bad that V won’t take the VP to get his feet wet🤔 a little bit condescending attitude
I love Viveck already & I’ve only recently gotten turned on to him! He’s exactly what this country needs right now!🇺🇸
I am so surprised that I did not get recommended this video. I really enjoy both of these individual. What hell RUclips.
Vivek has really surprised me because I didn't know who he was before and I just lumped him in with all the in other runner ups but he actually has a lot more potential than the rest of them and I'm starting to admire him! He is very intelligent and well spoken but also down to earth and considerate and very American because he loves America unlike a lot of Americans! He is also very logical and thoughtful and likes to entertain an idea for a long time and bounce it off other intellects like D.M. but also everyday hardworking people and seems to value them both. He also wants to get people interested in the country they are a citizen in through civic duty which I think would be very helpful for the youth growing up into adults to value their country and know something about it. And you know it would be a great idea for people to join the army for a year or two and see the world and broaden their horizons and they could even let them fly drones for the military some could be to keep an eye on our boys and help them out like that and some could do administrative stuff and medical stuff it doesn't all have to be combat esp if your just doing your mandatory year as a matter of fact their civic duty could be their title and some could be government auditors (ex. cop watchers) that actually audit the government and make sure its functioning properly so it could not only be very helpful to everyone but a useful tool for the people to jump start their career like say in engineering they could fix roads, bridges, historic buildings or they could craft statues that could be apart of our history if they are into the arts like this could continue on into all aspects of life and we could give them all a course to learn about our country and their RIGHTS and why they might want to be a good citizen so they can hold on to those rights like the second amendment and give them something to be proud of and cherish and hold on to and maybe a sense of meaning in their lives and by educating them about the constitution and how it was written to tell the government what it can't do and how they can use it to their benefit when found in tricky situations with bad actors from the government I mean the list goes on and the benefits would greatly outweigh the costs so it seems like a no brainer but if I missed something feek free to let me know! Great idea Vivek just take it a few steps further and it seems perfect to me!
What a great conversation about America and what it means to be an American. 👍👍
If I was american this man would get my vote!
Douglas is always a pleasure to listen to as well
Too bad in Ireland where I come from we only have different flavors of left wing politics
I'm feeling those early 2007 Obama vibes except from the red zone. Ramaswamy represents the kind of fresh, young, positive, intelligent, optimistic energy we need. We don't have to choose grievance and revenge to make a better country,.
Except Vivek actually did something in life before running - founding multi billion dollar businesses and creating jobs
Obama was all talks and politics only
@@francoisaxel6216 Ok, but I'm only speaking to the sense of optimism and excitement at the time and how I see certain parallels. There's no reason to be divisive.
You deserve much more views and attention Vivek and I'm not even American! Love your work Douglas your a gentleman and a scholar
Douglas is so brilliant and inspiring with his language, poise, sense of humour, and insight.
Fantastic guest!! 🔥🔥🔥
I've been waiting for this since I saw a clip you published the the other day. I love Douglas Murray.
Great combination of highly intelligent gentleman
Vivek is great to listen to...i follow him on U Tube..i am going to order his book too!!
excellent conversation. these types of conversations simply don't happen in corporate media.
Douglas speaks and I tend to listen. Great show.
Really enjoyed listening to Douglas Murray and was an interesting discussion overall. Always enjoy listening to Vivek.
Douglas Murray is a delicious snob! Love it and nothing but respect for him!
So true that a Merit based system will grow the pie, while equity (DEI) based system will inevitably shrink the pie and make everyone disenfranchised.
I’m liking Vivek more and more with each time I hear him
Fantastic discussion between two fine gents. "One of the great mistakes is to judge policies and programs by their intentions rather than their results." ~Milton Friedman. All one needs is cursory glance at society and the intentions behind equity and DEI programs. We have reverted to a near precivilization type state. Fractured ever more into smaller and smaller groups, or tribes. This is inherently dangerous and ultimately leads to war as the tribe no longer has allegiance to the law and society but to protect its own interests first and foremost often to the detriment of other tribes violently or not. As Victor Davis Hanson points out; "Tribalism is one of history’s great destroyers. Once racial, religious, ethnic, or clan ties trump all considerations of merit and loyalty to the larger commonwealth, then factionalism leads to violence, violence to chaos, and chaos to the end of the state itself."
I've rarely seen Douglas Murray crack a real jovial smile. It's so endearing to see. He's always very handsome and incredibly witty but with a smile he's also cheeky and youthful.
He probably chooses not to smile to avoid seeming young.
Really enjoyed this conversation. This is the first time I've listened to Vivek. Brilliant!
One of my favorite podcasts and this is my favorite candidate for president
You're speaking to the right people, Vivek. Love it!
My favorite author thank you
Gentlemen, top marks to both of you. Bravo!
Thanks for everything you do gentlemen.
vivek has been getting some of my favorite people on. this is amazing!
Douglas is a beast and occasionally hilarious. So smart.
I must say Douglas is looking very well these days, quite the handsome contrarian! Seriously, this was a very informative and entertaining discussion. Thanks Vivek for speaking with such a great guest and for recording it for our delectation too! (edited for spelling)
Douglas Murray speaks so well and is a genius.
"Auditioning for pity". What a great phrase. It's the companion to virtue signaling.
Always the best guest, Douglas.
Relistening after 4 months. This conversation did make it to Viveks platform, and its transforming the field. Excellent
Vivek embodies the best of America and is the kind of political outsider we need to make positive change in America without being beholden to billionaire donors.
I have to say; Vivek, De Santis & Trump, what a line of competitors! If any of the 3 become POTUS, I’d be satisfied.
Like a great thesis, not a wasted sentence.
Thank you both so very much.
Thank you for this brilliant and inspirational conversation!
Learning this show exists just made my life better. I can't thank you enough.
I could have easily listened for another hour, but that's usually the case when Douglas Murry speaks.
two powerhouses. So awesome to see Vivek not in stump speech mode but rather a genuine conversation. Amazing.
Douglas is the best. Much respect.
Vivek the staunch expression excellent. And when someone compliments your stellar ivy league credentials don't even crack a smile or grin. That will bring voters to your camp.
The bit about the Arab slave trade made my day.
Thank God this info is finally getting mainstreamed.
I do wonder about the exact framing, though. Having studied some (though not extensively) history, I understand that the majority of the islamic slave trade was focused around female slaves used for nefarious purposes and domestic work. It seems to me that attributing genocide to the purchasers of the slaves might not be correct, given that the operations necessary would have been extremely dangerous and had a too high to bear mortality rate. It seems far more plausible that the initial slavers would have performed such actions, then sold the survivors. There were far too many historical incidents involving slave revolts to give real credence to the idea that the slaves were imported and used for agricultural and heavy work like they were in the Americas, especially the global south. This sounds like an interesting, but incomplete picture to me, which is almost as bad as malicious disinformation.
@@joeymac4302 I have read enough credible sources to conclude that male castration was performed in most cases, whether by the Arabs or at the request of the Arabs. Either way, a eunuch is much less likely to revolt and cannot reproduce. There was historically significant agriculture in the Arab Middle East/Turkey/Persia. Also, even if they only took women, they certainly did not allow them to reproduce. You do not see any historically black Arabs/Turks/Persians. But you do see Arabs with blue/green eyes and such traits are desired to this day. The framing may not be perfect, but nearly equating to malicious disinformation is ironically "almost as bad as malicious disinformation" itself.
@@joeymac4302 The males were most often made into eunuchs. Females were prized for harem members.
The term genocide is appropriate. The UN definition of Genocide includes "preventing members of a group from having children" - and the males were members of the group. Any form of forced sterilization can be considered genocide.
Well done gents. Douglas has a great ability to draw out the best in people… even Americans.
Great Conversation!
VIVEK 2024🎉🎉🎉🎉 I’m excited for the first time in my life to PARTICIPATE as an AMERICAN. I truly belief Vivek is a REVOLUTIONARY capable of diving deeper into changing the current ‘system’
Thumbs up before watching. About to be fire.
20:03 the Arab slave trade had more traffic from Africa than the transatlantic slave trade
Great discussion about the idea of a national service requirement to be able to vote, to be a fully incorporated citizen
Starship Trooper, Robert A Heinlein.
Amazing perspective...i think this is it. Thank you.
Great chat….Doug slaying as always, vivek a great host….
Very brilliant and informative conversation.
Incredible. Go Vivek!
Douglas is perhaps a little too easy to listen to, but what he says is fine grist for the mill. Always a pleasure, thanks Vivek and Douglas
Enjoyed this conversation, love the respect with which the participants interacted
Douglas Murray on point as usual.
The answer to the historic injustice issue has to be moving forward, the idea that there is some kind of accounting possible for people in the present to pay for people who looked like they in the past is ridiculous….and who is able to do the accounting??
The main problem is this premise that something external to the person is able to come and right the wrongs.
Surely we are better off focussing on the person alive today.
If we accept that someone’s great great grandparents were held back then we can make sure that the person today certainly isn’t and that we can try our best to give them the circumstances to improve their position, but the onus still has to be on the performance of the individual, rather than some arbitrary restitution scheme that nobody is capable of creating.
You don't redress past injustice by institution of present injustice.
My pleasure to sub to this channel. The young will save this country (USA) As they always have because they do the fighting.
I love Douglas Murray, and consume as much content he puts out as I can find. Thank you for having this intellectual deep-thinking TREASURE on your show. We need Douglas back in UK to fix our broken politics. I agree with everything this GENIUS of a man has to say, and learn a lot each and every time he speaks. Good luck Vivek, in your POTUS race, I love when you’re invited on Tucker’s show.
Love Douglas Murray. Excellent discussion!
Agree that we as a society are forced/nudged to become more regressive. People with an iota of brain cells are fighting to not be a sheep in this regressive movement which is known as woke progressive movement.
Great chat Vivek, you have done a lot on the Social issues, now you need to chat with Foreign Policy experts.... Bolton, Pompeo, Condy Rice. Economists....Sowell, Paulson, Climate Scientists Lindzen, and someone else, Energy market CEOS, Bankers etc and maybe even some democrats. Also start giving us a framework of your policy structure and budget proposals.
Bolton? Rice? Warmongers
When you have sweethearts like Xi and the CCP killing a million Americans, 3 million worldwide in asymmetric warfare using COVID virus, you bet I wish for a "warmonger" hawk like Bolton or Rice advising Vivek. Maybe some people want the "Dalai Lama" or the "Pope" negotiating terms with the CCP or Sergey Lavrov the next time Xi launches an attack on the rest of the world, but I doubt the rest of the world has received the memo.
There are no foreign policy experts!!!!! They’re all just war mongers and psychopaths. Just stay out of everything and defend the US only, period.
You have my vote
Thank you! So refreshing!
This is gold.
Both of these gentlemen are stellar and have my respect.
God bless. You are both in my prayers.
And Vivek, you might even have my vote at this point!
❤
I respect you, Vivek! Keep it up 👍
11:01 when someone brings up toxic masculinity, we need to say, “Because the idea of toxic masculinity has become such a politicised concept and so that I know there’s fair judgment here, what do you consider healthy masculinity to be?”
Same with being right wing , it’s a ploy to weight every opinion , objection , proposal and formula at a lower start point than left.
Right doesn’t help itself with its response but still
And they will then describe femininity without using the word.
Love to hear Douglas turn a phrase.
Great conversation, love Douglas & Vivek😊
This is an excellent conversation.
Excellent discussion.
Vivek very much has earned my respect - for the way he speaks, his breadth of knowledge and the way he conducts himself. The people he is engaging in conversation with also suggests he is on the right path. Fine conversation here with Douglas Murray
It has certainly been incredibly interesting living through history this past decade. How we've seen the world change and watch conversations like these and its discourse evolve along with the medium. No less now to see such a formidable and thoughtful political candidate, unique in many ways in this arena, like Vivek appear from left field. Trump was another breed of dark horse. The fact that we're always surprised about what pops up on our yearly bingo card inspires a sense of trepidation and fear but also hope. Amidst the uncertainty of our times and the ever present fog of war that is the future we march forward into, it is refreshing to know that you can never quite expect what good lies around the next corner.
Vivek has spoken with both Douglas Murray and Jordan Peterson and contributed to the discussions in such away to make them deeper and more profound. He is a huge intellect and we have benefitted from listening to him.
The problem is that to be president of the United States he needs to take his shirt off and mud wrestle with Donald Trump. Vivek is too dignified to do that.
i dont think we have seen everything Vivek has in store for us ;)
As long as he is there to wipe the floor with the usual gang of idiots that keep younger freedom lovers from getting in the Gout-rideen Old Party, he’s performing the same kind of much needed service that Trump did. Win or lose the at years’ end, Vivek isn’t going away any time soon.
Douglas Murray has been an absolute legend and diagnosed this true existential crisis many years ago. I feel him and Tucker Carlson could and should be two of the most influential people in our modern history.
One of the best opening monologues I’ve ever heard.
I remember hearing that the best CEOs, when they go to a meeting, don’t walk in and telling everyone this is what I want and what we’ll do. They listen to everyone’s viewpoints before giving theirs and making a decision. Vivek is running for president, he’s got all the reason to hog the mic and pontificate about his plans. But he doesn’t. He sits back and lets his guest talk. It tells me what kind of CEO he must have been, and what kind of president he would be. 👍
What els3 can be said already. Just my complete admiration for those that are trying to make this country a better place, and setting the example of how we progress as a nation.
It’s selective equity. It’s insidious and incredibly dangerous. The best solution will always be based on competence. Otherwise everything and I mean everything will just fall apart.
Thank you both for an interesting and challenging converstion
Saw a couple of these in my feed, when it was Douglas on the otherside of the table? Immediate must watch IMO
shiiiiiet its Doug Murray, the legend ❤️
I LOVE DOUGLAS MURRAY❤❤️❤️
Real goal this woke insanity is to destroy Western society. Thank you for this important conversation 😊 Douglas Murray - always my favorite ❤️