The consistent pattern of the misunderstandings I’ve experienced from neurotypicals is the assumption that I have some kind of ulterior motive behind what I’ve said or done when I never do. I say exactly what I mean. It has taken a lifetime to understand that others don’t
@@62Movement It manifests itself in the assumptions one makes about other people’s motives, for example. The meaning you project onto other people’s behavior reveals more about you than the other person.
@@user-dm6jy5jr9o Projection as opposed to [what]? I’m not saying the subconscious is going to be recognized at all. By the person doing the behavior. By the person observing the behavior. There certainly is an element of interpretation… both folks must interact, of course. If you don’t understand you can speak up (perhaps you “should” speak up and ask for clarification yet there’s a can of worms with that, too). ;)
It's because dishonesty or omission of the truth **is** a necessary part of empathy. NT or ND-- everyone suffers with total honesty. To illustrate this point: If a child gives you a drawing and asks you what you think of it, most people are socialized to lie because we care about the feelings of the child. You say "that's wonderful sweetheart. It's so colorful! You look so proud of yourself" . A caring adult does not say exactly what they think: "This doesn't look anything like a horse and all the colors have combined into an ugly, unreadable mess." Because that would hurt the child's feelings right now and would discourage them from making stuff and showing it to us in the future. Women in particular are socialized to put as much weight on other people's feelings as their own-- so it doesn't even feel like dishonesty to a highly empathetic person to give the answer that preserves the other person's sense of confidence/wellbeing. "I like the red dress better" is the diplomatic way of saying "The blue dress looks terrible on you" even if "the blue dress looks bad" is the more honest answer. This constant diplomacy on other people's behalf *IS NECESSARY* for raising children. The parent is literally regulating the emotions of children that are in process of learning how to regulate themselves. They are teaching children the way to talk to themselves and others--which is hopefully kind and not full of unnecessary and toxic criticism. People that are patient with children are by design **and** necessity good liars. They are also the same population that is patient with people with disabilities or difficulties. High empathy and a strong verbal filter go hand in hand. You're framing is that NT's nonsensically think Autistics have an ulterior motive when the autistic is just being honest. But NT's have been socialized to not give unnecessary criticism, so criticism is perceived as an intentional choice to them. When an NT says "the blue dress looks bad" instead of "I like the red dress better" they are doing it intentionally to hurt someone. So they make the logical, to them, conclusion, that if you had cared about their feelings you would not say "the blue dress looks bad". NT's don't see 'preventing emotional harm' as lying, and they do see failure to prevent emotional harm as asshole behavior because that is the hallmark of assholes--they don't care if they inflict emotional harm. Unfortunately, autistics are much more susceptible to asshole behavior because it would never occur to them to have a kinder way of saying something and choosing the more hurtful option. Autistics do not harm others to intentionally humble them. It does not occur to them that anyone would. They act like everyone is doing the best they can. But that is just factually incorrect. And for this reason NT's are better at discovering assholes. But that also makes the unintentional cruelty of autistic honesty and the intentional cruelty of jerks really hard for an NT to separate. And....a lack of intention does not always matter. Cruel words are cruel words. Even the most bluntly honest autistic person on the planet does not want to **hear** the total blunt honesty of someone else telling them they are irritating every. single. time. they are irritating. It hurts to hear "you're irritating" --even if it's worded like "the way you eat hurts my ears" or "go away".
Yeah, I mentioned that indirectly (emotional overload is what I referenced). I can definitely get to a point where I become non-communicative and am blurting random words out. It appears really hostile, but I'm just trying to get out of the situation. I should probably do a video about when we get overwhelmed in social situations and how to effectively manage it.
Exactly 💯 I hope it will get better for you Barbz. 🙏🏽🤍I've noticed mine goes way down as long as I'm taking care of myself properly. Ketovore diet, enough sunshine, walk barefoot outside, healthy stimming, skin brushing 3x a week for lymphatic system, detoxing & Faith, etc... Even found shielding from WiFi (getting wired Ethernet connection) & staying the heck away from Smart Meters, & be on my cellphone much less has helped a whole heck of a lot too. The fact we can hear electricity humming proves we are much more electrosensitive & sensitive to all these new frequencies (that have popped up in the past 20 years) much more than the general population. I joke around a lil & tell others that we're truly the Canaries in a Coal Mine alerting the rest of the population how horrible these modern day conveniences are. I really need to finally launch something talking about these tips cuz I'm not seeing many talk of all of these to help with Autism who is also Autistic. I'm just a lil nervous still cuz I didnt find out I was Autistic till this year, so I'm still getting acclimated into accepting this & processing everything. It takes time. I've done special interest research on all of these things, plus have tested it & they check out.
As an autistic person I am so proud of you for fighting and recognising your traits. And I have had so many similar experiences in my career to the point of withdrawing from the workforce alltogether, because it caused so deep depressions and autoimmune disease. So, Thank you so much for your work. Greetings from Germany🙂
I was almost diagnosed with BPD. I was in the process of getting that diagnosis when my practitioner realized it was actually autism. Sorry you had a difficult childhood. I did too and it's very hard to heal from. I hope you have good people in your life now 💛
Autism and cptsd can also be misdiagnosed as bpd, especially if you been abused in adult age by relation to a narsisisst that has retraumatized you back to your abusive childhood.
@@itb7439this happened to me, and I can't shake the feeling of guilt and shame around this... That I chose it... That I stayed..... That I accepted it..... That I didn't leave..... I can't stop my mind from making me out to be stupid.
Having grown up as an undiagnosed AuDHD with a narcissist parent, it's easy to spot their brand of dysfunction but also immediately exhausting to deal with. That said, a lot of the discourse about autism seems to presume not only that we don't mean to disrupt neurotypical expectations but that we want to be accommodating of them in order to get along. I take issue with that because as a late-diagnosed AuDHD person I spent the majority of my life working on myself to make sense of my difference from others and I don't think we ought to be so accommodating or aspire to bridge the gap between our own nature and neurotypical social customs so easily. When I infodump it's because my priority is to meaningfully contextualize the topic for others. I feel *obliged* to do this because it is my responsibility to communicate clearly, particularly across neurotypes. MY expectation as an autistic person is that, if the other person doesn't want to hear it, they will tell me as much. Period. I am aware of their physical/unspoken expressions but I don't presume to read their minds by it. There's no offense taken when they express a plain statement of disinterest because I respect their boundaries and their candor and expect the same in return. It's not only our language that is sometimes formalised but also our behaviour; once we learn the rules we act prescriptively and proactively in conversation to both maintain order/expectations and to effectively accomplish our goals/tasks. In that sense I think masking is a form of neurodiplomacy we undertake as the ambassadors for our own difference. It took a lot of time prediagnosis for me to understand that that can seem narcissistic to others but it's worth powering through their misunderstanding because one is entitled to be oneself and, if they are genuinely committed to our mutual understanding (there's that sense of diplomacy again) then they, too, will make an effort to respectfully meet us halfway. Often, neurotypical privilege short-circuits that desire for mutual understanding. People will project their frustration as, "you're just being difficult." That's on them. Having grown up with a narcissist I am still inherently conditioned to feel guilty setting boundaries but it is nevertheless our right as individuals to have and maintain those boundaries for ourselves. 😊
@vivvy_0 Thanks, glad it's useful! I'm also fond of the word, "neuroprivilege", as it clarifies that our sociopolitical circumstances are also inherently challenged by the majority's perceptions of (our) difference.
I really appreciate this. I am autistic, and so is my father (he is not diagnosed, but I am *absolutely* positive), and I have always wondered if I was suffering “regular” abuse from him, or actual narcissistic abuse. This has helped me realized that he is just a very self-important and unkind person on *top* of being autistic (but likely not a diagnosable narcissist). He couldn’t pretend to be concerned to save his life 🙃 Funnily enough, he’s accused me of being a narcissist just for not putting up with his nonsense… interesting how that works. So sorry you’ve had to fight against this! ❤
This is such a useful video. The detail and accuracy in observing narcissism v autism is absolutely spot on. Great information. Unfortunately I have an autistic family member who is also a narcissist, she is exhausting to be around! It’s interesting to observe her autistic traits separate from her narcissistic traits: sometimes they seem very different, sometimes they merge and it is difficult to distinguish between the two.
Covert/vulnerable narcissistic behavior can present so differently than overt narcissists. It would be interesting to hear a similar style video with those traits. Thank you for covering this topic
Yes, they present differently, but the underlying traits are the same (there's not two separate diagnostic criteria). I have enough material to make several more of these comparison videos, depending on how well this one does. With covert narcissists, the focus is much more on resentment and victimization rather than presenting a facade. I can try to speak better to that perspective next time. Thank you for watching!
That's the problem, isn't it? There's no real way to know the other person's intentions OR for people to truly know ours. There are narcissistic and abusive autistics who DO use their autism as an excuse too. I'm Audhd, for Context, having a dysfunctional family system of neurodivergent people AND potentially narcissistic abuse...it just gets SUPER hard to know what's real. Especially after being gaslit for a lifetime, and especially by a covert abusive parent. It's all so tangled up.🎶 "MOTHEEERRRRRR KNOWS BEST!" 🎶 Thanks for your video.
Your channel is helping me understand my "blind spots", when it comes to manipulative people & narcissists. I am thinking more and more that I am autistic. Although I have engaged in negative / toxic gossip in the past, your explanation of how autists will gossip with out even knowing it, or easily not even recognize personal information or boundaries are being crossed, makes me remember how many times I was manipulated for information to share gossip.
This video is a gem. You described this so well. My husband is autistic & was raised by 2 Narcissistic Parents. He is your twin brother. You are so wonderful to share this!
Thank you. Depending on how well this video does, it will become a series as I have many other behaviors to compare. I hope your husband is doing better, it's such a hard thing to navigate.
@@ProudlyAutistic I really hope this video is doing well enough to make this a series. 😍 I am so happy to hear you have even more ideas for more of this important, autehtic insights in autistic behaviour. I profit twice form your videos because I learn about my own behaviour (am late diagnosed since 4 years ago), and how to explain it to others. 👍 All the love and thankyou's, from vienna, to you.😍
I was married, briefly. (if you call two years brief) to a covert narc. He dismissed my adult son's autism as lazy and attention seeking. I am thankful I completely ignored the narc's raging and unkindness, to the detriment of my health, and got both me and my son out of the exposure to this narc. My son is on his way to getting the help he needs, and is in a relationship with a very kind, understanding partner who treats him as valuable and smart.
Everything has plausible deniability since we can NEVER understand or know another’s intentions. Go for transparency every time, the chips fall where they may and you may get burned. If one actually deeply understands their own motivations and intentions then they know if they’re trying to manipulate. Everyone IS trying to manipulate their situation. We manipulate, “manage” and control ourselves… we try to. If we succeed in knowing ourselves fully then it’s not so difficult to accept we ARE trying to manipulate situations. What is the difference between this and narcissism? Knowing that we KNOW our intentions are for all folks to succeed. If you truly KNOW your intentions and can TELL others your goals upfront… it’s not like you can’t get your way… it’s just easier when others are also respectful of their intentions with yours. Communication is difficult because we’re not patient enough to really express our goals, to make certain they’re clear and then listen to others intentions and goals. We’re all expected to move too fast about it. And when there’s someone afraid to have an opinion or make a decision at all, much less quickly, one must ask of themselves… am I really just too afraid to have boundaries and my own ideas? Maybe I should explore what I actually do think or feel. Making a decision could be manipulating others. Not making a decision could be, too. We can encourage or prevent people from accomplishing anything. Just look at how difficult it is to get our politicians to agree to do something good for the majority. It only takes one person to mess it up. That one person probably isn’t as nice as they think they are. When everyone else sees that you have a problem working towards solutions, you have a problem working towards solutions. If that’s you… get out of the way. If you have people like that around you? Get out of the way. There’s never an easy way.
My sister and I thought our mother was a narcissist after her death. But, over the past couple months, I fell into a rabbit hole on autism as my sister was researching it because she was pretty sure her son is. We simultaneously concluded she was actually autistic. She determined her son is autistic, as well as herself, but also that I have Asperger's. I had already determined my wife and daughter are, and, now that we know, we can adjust things to accommodate and reduce or prevent burnout. It took a lot more research and self examination for me to see the Aspergers because I basically have a character operating system running for dealing with the world. But, in that research, I realized my only friend of 25 years is also asperger autistic. He laughed when I mentioned it to him, thinking I was just seeing autism everywhere. Then he saw video of an IT professional announcing he was diagnosed. When he described what lead him to being evaluated, it was like the guy was talking about him. A few days after he told me he was, my wife asked me if "normal" people did something like we do. I stopped, thought for a second, and, for the first time in my life, I had to say I had no clue. I realized I've never been close enough to nuerotypical people to be able to know. Everyone I've known and loved have all been autistic.
I’m autistic and I’ve been struggling to identify my sister as an autistic or narcissist. I always thought she was a narcissist, but after I learnt I was autistic, I thought maybe she was too and she was just misunderstood. But this video and other sources reaffirm me belief that she is a narcissist. Mainly two reasons: she has always been a dishonest person-lies, manipulation, sabotage. I and all the other autistic people I know highly value honesty and wouldn’t engage in this behaviour. The second reason, is ego, and myself and the autistics I know don’t have big egos or a strong sense of self that lends to it. In fact, my doctor to,d me it’s one of the defining qualities of autistic people: we view ourselves as logically and somewhat at a distance that prevents most of us from becoming egotistical. Anyway, narcissism and autism seem to run in my family and it’s sometimes hard to distinguish between the two. Your video, however, helps a lot. Thank you.
Well done! One thing I’m concerned about it that sometimes it’s not gaslighting, it’s genuinely being afraid for someone’s mental health who may have perception issues due to trauma or the nature of their diagnosis. I’ve been called “condescending” for being truly concerned by someone going through a mental health split or crisis.
Great video, this topic should be explored more. I was unsure if a behavioral tic or two i observed in a narck was high-functioning autism, but realized it was really cluster B stuff and finally either borderline or full-blown malignant communal NPD by the end. They had very strong resources and coping strategies and, of course, incredible excuses. It's too bad that autism might be confused for this but i think the difference might be that they could be convinced to be more honest about vulnerabilities which is crucial in forming a decent relationship and ironically might make them better at it than the NPDs.
My former wolf pastor gaslighted me in that way. His battle cry was, “You need help! You need psychiatric care!” It was awful and scary. I’m at a much safer church now where the pastors don’t do that.
I prefer just to call people bullies. Both autistic and allistic people can be bullies. Bullies always put their own feelings and desires, even relatively moderate ones, first. They turn their own wants into needs and the needs of others into wants. If they find out they hurt someone, they double down and claim they didn’t and that THEY are, in fact, the victim. There is a persistent pattern of this, not just one misunderstanding, unusual personal need, or bad day. They may seem to respect the needs/desires of others, but only when these do not conflict significantly with their own.
Or jerks lol. We're not immune from being either. The problem is when people overuse the term "narcissist" simply because they don't understand us, even when we're well intentioned.
Unsolicited: Please like, subscribe, and share this extremely important video. Thank you for this video. Tip: a rule of thumb is to lead the conversation into repair by asking the intent of the person without directly saying was that intentionally hurtful. Something like, "I seemed to have missed something. What you said seemed rude/hurtful ect". Then pay close attention to the response. You can usually work out where you stand, but you want to avoid apologising first if you think the other person is a Narcissist. If you hear a healthy response, you can proceed with apologising and reconciling. This is exactly what I need. My narc has intent and is also Autistic or has an Autistic diagnosis. I keep trying to explain what you have said: it is about intention, control, and manipulation. A typical Autistic person or a person diagnosed with Autism response is, "sorry I do NOT understand, but I am sorry. I do NOT want to hurt you. What can I do"? Even when the person who is Autistic or diagnosed with Autism is actually in the right. That is a really tricky conversation because I try explain that I am sorry. I actually have to accommodate you. I did NOT realise. However exactly what you are saying Autistic people or people with Autistic diagnosis are "usually well intention" and come to a genuine request to repair. Actually Autistic people or people with Autism are actually incredible in their intention to NOT harm. I also do NOT want to harm and am looking for genuine repair and reconciliation. I have tried therapy over and over with my Narcissist. Each time I heal further and NO change in the other person. You are spot on. The rule of thumb is the intention. Autistic people or people with Autism do NOT seek control, have NO malicious intent and in fact are burnt by their "Narcissistic" behavior because it is Autistic behavior. I hear your struggle. You are definitely NOT a narcissist. You seek therapy and healing. You are uncomfortable and are trying to heal. You are very articulate and deal very comprehensively with this difficult topic. I hope that you get the healing that you are searching for, but I am glad that you are self-compassionate. It does amaze me that you are able to articulate and speak so comprehensively and respectfully AND stay clear (I ALWAYS use capitals as emphasis, unless I specify otherwise) in your communication. What you said was incredibly well said. Well done. Thank you again. What I can say is that I am sorry you suffered, but I am grateful you are able to help others with this important video. This is the first video I have seen, but I am sure your content is as good because you know what you are speaking about. You speak intelligently and have a really important message. Thank you for sharing it.
Thank you so much for this kind comment. You touched on an important issue relating to navigating narcissists. I'm not great at that as it's my nature to fawn, but I think that would be a great topic for the future. I'm still feeling out the direction for this channel as it's still relatively new, but I suspect issues relating to relationships/advocating for ourselves/mental health is where I need to live. Thank you again 💛
@ProudlyAutistic I hope you have much success with your video and even more success with your life and health. I would like to learn more about the tools you use to navigate your interactions with narcs. I am NOT on the Spectrum, but I gain from your insights, experiences, and tools. I appreciate the way you communicate. I still have only watched this 1 video, but would like to watch more, just a time issue. I am looking forward to see how well your channel does soon.
It seems the major difference is the “intent” behind the behaviours but the behaviours are frightfully similar. When you’re on the receiving end it’s vey difficult to the distinguish and understand 🤷♂️
I wish I would’ve been here in the beginning when this video first uploaded but absolutely yeah I’ve been accused of being a narcissist. What’s new this whole autistic mind blindness and the problem with people on autism spectrum we struggle with going outside of our tendencies which there is double empathy, problem mind blindness, there’s even, what is it reciprocity issue other problematic things the biggest problem is most people think we should act the same way as other people we don’t we perceive information differently we perceive the world differently. We feel differently and some of us have baggage that can make it even harder for people to understand from an emotional point of view that we are disconnected a lot of the time from our own emotions as well as understanding the complications of other peoples emotions and being able to put ourselves in other person shoes when all we can see is our own reality, making it very difficult to be able to jump into somebody else’s shoes making it very difficult to see any other perspective but our own we can get better but it’s something that we have to choose to grow and some of us just choose not to so it can be complicated. I know this topic all too well.
My mother is narcissistic and some sociopathic traits. I was also accused of being a narcissist by a former friend who was a psychologist. 😢😢. It's taken me years to work through in therapy.
I'm so sorry. I also developed a lot of narcissistic traits from my parent. When you're raised in that environment, you adapt to survive and please the narcissist. However. When I became an adult and had relationships outside my home, I realized how abnormal my upbringing was and that that's not how you treat others. The ability to recognize that the behavior is bad and that you don't want to act that way is a massive tell that your aren't truly a narcissist. It took me a long time to fight the impulses ingrained into me and I'm much better now. Glad things are getting better for you as well. Thank you for watching!
The fact that they specifically use our autism label against us to make it look like we're an unreliable narrator of our own reality is just evil and sick. They love to flaunt that as a reason why we're supposed to feel fundamentally inferior and undeserving. Curious how I only ever seem to feel that way around my family, and generally not out in the real world or at work where I'm just treated like any other random and capable person.
Thank you for the advice at the end and just the whole video really, it was very validating for me to hear an autistic persons experience with NPD. Also, I am so sorry that you had to experience that in the first place. I'm not diagnosed or anything, though I'm about 90% sure I'm autistic+ at this point (7 months of research in) and naturally it led me to re-examine my life and experiences. Which then led me to looking at the people close to me and starting to realise that I've probably dealt with NPD among other things in my childhood and adult relationships (on top of the existing trauma), though I was at the point of thinking I was being dramatic as surely I couldn't have had to deal with that much abuse (gaslighting myself maybe?). So to hear that you had to deal with it from your mum and a/some romantic partner/s is like I said, incredibly validating. Also, you mentioning the co-morbid possibility between Autism and NPD was interesting as it was something I have been looking into with my current housemate/partner (it's a weird dynamic) but with ADHD and NPD. Theres also seems to be an interesting connection between ASPD and Autism where some individuals (myself included) report better friendships though this seems to be for various reasons, some not so nice. I could probably write an entire essay on that alone to be honest. Anyway sorry for the mini infodump/essay in your comments, I tried to keep it as succinct as possible.
My autistic partner has admitted they gasligt me, and that the motivation was to control and deceive me. I know because they told me so. There is a black and white idea being pushed that autistic people cannot be manipulative because they often are interpreted as being manipulative, but the reality is more nuanced. My other autistic friends have told me my partner is abusive and that autism may be an explanation for some but not all of her behavior, and that it isn't an excuse. We are talking about spectrums.
They are not closely linked. It is that the npd has a way of misumderstanding the enviroment. Npd is a neurodivergence too, but its inner mechanics are very different from the inner autistic mechanics. The link is often viewed from the outside as "similar"
@@ctlo4403I think this is completely nonsense. Some behavior might appear similar to outsiders but they are caused by completely different causes and goals. For most NTs it's enough when others behave a bit differently than what they expect to throw them into a bucket "weird" without caring about details. That doesn't make it the same.
It's unlikely that someone who tries to gaslight admits doing it. This sounds quite fishy. I can imagine he/she tries to imitate behavior he/she experienced as an attempt to fit in because that's how "normal" people behave.
I don't really trust the autistic label any longer because for mild social problems it's extremely unreliable. I would not be surprised if your partner were not really autistic. Lets however say that they are. I have observed that people seem to have this strange kind of logic that they apply where it's assumed that if someone is autistic then they are separate to the rest of the population and can't have be a psychopathy, narcissist, sociopath, etc. It's very clear that these labels are being picked due to the social perspective of them. You always hear people coming out and saying they are autistic like it's a badge of honour. You always see in the recommendations to videos like this things such as five signs it's both, autistic and ADHD. Two conditions without much stigma. Autistic now really refers to something so mild that as with ADHD it's not clear if it's a disorder or simply being different. You never hear things such as it's autism and psychopathy or its ASD and BDP. On that subject there are a number of cases where the first thing I've heard said is ASD but the first problem I actually see is BDP.
@FirstLast-rb5zj What I have seen most people go through various stages of diagnosis like BPD until they get an Autism diagnosis. ADHD seems to be diagnosed more often. For people with Autism it's definitely not a badge of honor. It's foremost an explanation for their struggles. Sure, there are people who jump onto many things they find online and assume too quickly that this might be the explanation they were looking for. That muddies the water a bit. If you are looking for a label that makes you so special that only few can claim they suffer from the same, you might be the problem.
This is so well put. I wonder if you are aware of the Lucy Letby case in the UK. It looks this this could actually be autism for exactly the reasons you explain. The detailed linear thinking was one of the reasons people felt she was guilty. The distinction between gaslighting and just shutting down a conversation is really good. I wasn't actually aware of this and I bet not every autistic person is aware of the difference either. Likewise gossip, dominating conversations etc
Exactly how it is with a narcissist, and interesting the information on autism. Learning to distinguish the repeated behaviour of a narcissist and that of autistic people is so important. Once you’ve had the displeasure of being entangled with a narcissist, there is a tendency to be paranoid looking for red flags and blanketing anyone with that label. 👏Excellent upload.
Such misunderstandings arise due to how society throws around names of psychological disorders willy-nilly. Indeed, we all can be narcissistic, but NPD is a clinically significant form that embodies extreme and consistent patterns of behavior. Having very strong empathy as an autistic may lead to shutting down, ignoring disruptive stimuli, or disengaging. Too much empathy is a heavy burden to bear. So while one might say such behaviors are egotistical or even narcissistic, they are subclinical in terms of NPD.
Completely agree. The term is waaay overused and often in the wrong context. For example, possessing behaviors that on the surface seem like narcissistic traits and actually having narcissistic traits are two completely separate things. And even having narcissistic traits doesn't necessarily make you a narcissistic (NPD). It depends on the severity, longevity, and pervasiveness.
Yeah, it's all about them. Best to avoid if you can or create firm boundaries with distance if they're family. I went no contact with my parents over 10 years ago. It's sad.
Thank you so much for this video. Means so much to me. I was worried when I seen the title but hearing this has validated the decisions I unfortunately had to make moving forward with my life.
My takeaway though, is if the impact on relationships is very similar, the intent can't be the first consideration. Autistic people and narcissistic people frequently both become defensive when confronted - for different reasons - but if their behavior hurts others and they fail to validate and apologize for it, the impact is the same. Autistic people can accidentally gaslight IMO, if they are unable and unwilling to consider other people's reality or perspectives as valid because it doesn't match the reality and perspective in their own head or expectations of what should happen, patterns they believe are "right", etc.
The intent is everything. Because it is the guiding light for you to know how you will take the next step in dealing with the situation. When you're dealing with an actual narc, no amount of understanding and patience will work to rescue them. There has never been a known case of a narc changing for the better, and so you have to recognize that in order to know to leave. On the other hand, if the person is not a narc and has another thing, then you can maybe hang around and try adapt and work things out because the person is capable of empathy and is trying.
Thank you for making these distinctions. My covert narcissistic mother swears to this very day I have to be Aspie. She called me "Little Professor" all the time as a child. I probably am, but have yet to secure a diagnosis. (My younger child has, and my older child decided not to seek one.) I was accused of NPD by the psych expert at my SSA disability hearing. I was also accused of narcissistic behavior when I moderated for a few narcissistic abuse recovery YT channels-- I reckon some did not understand my expressions of double empathy, and thought I was self-absorbed and uncaring. It hurt a lot, yet do suspect that some smear campaigns by a borderline community member had something to do with it. I do care, so I really do appreciate your channel.
I see this in comment sections often. "All autistic people gaslight" etc. I was accused of gaslighting when someone claimed I was saying something and I tried to explain that it was not what I was saying at all.
as diagnosed Autistic person since I was in Grade 3, I've always felt NT gaslight me. I had no clue though that I have Auditory Processing problems when overwhelmed. I literally don't process what I hear. So people can say to 5 sentence I hear them all but process one them. The later on they say to me I told you X, I'm insistent they never told me at all. What I'm feeling gaslighted but so they. Now how weird is that. I look at this like network router start just dropping packets because it can't process them due network congestion. Some might get through but most don't. My brain is like that. Sure the physical link is up and working but some of the packets are getting dropped.
@chrismaxwell I love the analogy. And I can relate to that. It is difficult to explain to others why this occurs. My brain has too many tabs open sometimes and I cannot process everything all at once.
@@Daily_Bread84I think this has a lot to do with anxiety when we try to hear out subtitles that might or might not be there in order to avoid conflict caused by miscommunication. This is an additional load for the brain others don't have in addition to our difficulties with reading emotions, maintaining eye contact, .... It's a death spiral.
From my experience with Narcissistic individuals I feel like their actions are not deliberate or calculated but more of a defence mechanism. For example cheating on your wife and then blaming her for something she did or didn’t do, I think it’s just the inner-narcissist protecting the fragile ego from the realisation that the person is not perfect when their existence and identity is formed around the belief that they are flawless, superior and better than everyone else.
Thank you, this is exactly what I have been searching for. My husband is abusive narcissistic but autism runs in his family. My 13 yr old son was diagnosed with autism and I am so afraid that he just may be narcissistic as well because he copies so much of the insults that my husband voices. And my question is about the rambling of details. My son does this even when I tell him to stop several times, he refuses to stop. Why won't he stop despite my persistence? I mean I literally tell him sometimes that I don't care and I don't want to hear anymore. So it's not like he has to guess. By the way Narcissistim is genetic, it has been disproven that trauma has anything to do with developing the disorder.
Very interesting, thank you. I also grew up in an abusive family, and sometimes I wonder if I could be autistic. I certainly have a lot of abandonment issues, was an "invisible child", daydreaming, internalising and dissociating a lot. There seems to be a sort of "quiet Borderline" and I was incapable of holding jobs... burnt out and collapsing after a few weeks most of the times. So I also tried to get help... and one or two times they diagnosed me with "NPD" in such cases. I can read single people (kind of feel what they feel), but am incapable of understanding most of the group dynamics.
I have done some of these gaslighting behaviors in the past, but not to manipulate. I had always thought that I had a really good memory. It turns out that I have a good memory for certain things, but a poor memory for others. My behaviors were because I actually did not remember something correctly, but I was convinced that what I was remembering was correct, and that the other person was mistaken. This happened a lot over many years, until I realized that my memory was actually not very good.
My Parents made me feel like I was broken, I was never right, and I cried a lot. As I spent my life questioning myself and confronting my memories and their opinion about me, I felt imperfect. How could they see one thing and I see another. When I discovered I was autistic my life made sense and their behavior was their attempt to make me a pawn in their game.
I've been fairly sure for a while that my father was Autistic (considering that I am too) but the small amount I knew about narcissism made me question whether he had NPD. It doesn't help that so much of what's out there about abuse is about NPD. But this video makes it really clear to me that he was just a very rigid, very angry Autistic person. Thank you for laying it out so well.
My mother and an Ex are so called "covert Narcissists" they are so evil. I am AuDHD and have been with an autistic man for 5 years. The difference? The Narcs made me be depressed and suicidal, developing Cptsd, until I turned 50 and got out
I struggle with communication and so I have been been accused that my ‘always having the safest and correct thing to say’ and that my (scripted) speech is too smooth so I must be a manipulating person or predator when I was simply trying to be empathetic.
I feel quite emotional after watching this video, thank you so much for explaining the differences of traits and behaviour so clearly ❤ my daughter is narcissistic and highly manipulative… I love her and want her to get help, she refuses and is now insisting she is autistic (I’m not saying she isn’t btw) She is working with autistic children currently and obviously recognises similarities in herself in behaviour. I really appreciate this video explaining the similarities and differences - I want to help my daughter, would definitely love to see more videos ❤❤
Thank you, yes I will be doing more of these. Perhaps encourage her to seek an autism diagnosis? Maybe not so much for the autism diagnosis, but for her to start talking to mental health professionals. Unfortunately this is something she'll need to figure out herself. Calling her a narcissist will likely just push her away. Please take care of yourself, I know this dynamic is hard 💛
@@ProudlyAutistic bless you, I haven’t called her narcissistic and it’s even difficult for me to admit, she has asked for a diagnoses for autism but this is years away in the UK they are so far behind, I’ve subscribed to your channel and look forward to future information xx
There are a couple of psychological tests you could take if you’re curious about this: One is called the Narcissistic Personality Inventory (NPI). This one is frequently used by researchers and aligns with the DSM’s description of NPD, accounting for external displays such as grandiosity and exploitation. Another test is called the Pathological Narcissism Inventory (PNI). This is a newer test that accounts for both the external and internal traits of narcissism (so both grandiosity and vulnerability). Both tests are used by professional psychologists but you can find free versions online.
What though, to do about it? I have a coworker who I absolutely believe to have autism, who I am regularly stressed out by and I don’t have another term than gaslight to use- I get the intent is different, but if a (also not neurotypical ADHD’er) is begging an autistic person to stop the challenges, because they find them so destabilizing. The harm is still there.
I think they deserve the "jerk" title if you're explicitly stating your boundaries or what you find invalidating and they continue to plow ahead anyway with zero apparent care.... or even worse, they throw it in your face. There does need to be some accountability, even if it's a simple recognition that it's hard for them to understand your perspective, but they still appreciate your contribution. On the flip side, you should also understand that they communicate/think differently than NTs (and ADHDers in many ways) and to set your expectations accordingly (not saying you haven't).
Also adding, if they aren't diagnosed, they may not understand their behavior. Diagnosis adds so much context and ability to understand ourselves and others. If they're undiagnosed, they may have grown bitter from constant people pleasing and never being good enough. They may be to the point they just don't care anymore. Not your problem to solve, but some context. A lot of us have significant trauma.
They can’t change or fix or work on what they don’t even know they have. Many of us take years just to learn about autism, let alone to try to change it…so to walk up to a coworker who has autism and tell them to stop doing what they’re doing is not going to go very far. In fact there are many more people in the world who are unaware that they have autism than there are people who are aware that they have autism.
@@sissyrayself7508, well that is a new term for me. Thank you. We are not pursuing a friendship any longer and I was told their diagnosis was none of my business (and that’s also true) I just found relief in my adult diagnosis of ADHD and I just wanted the same for them… but truly, it’s not my business.
There is a complication here. I am certain that people who are narcissistic or who have other disorders are misdiagnosed as being autistic due to the lower social stigma. It's not hard to work out if you think about it. People with various conditions are so extreme that they can't acknowledge it. If someone has NPD it would make them look bad if diagnosed with NPD. They would likely however have social difficulties because of it that cannot be entirely ignored. There are also potentially mixed cases. There are a few cases I've come across where I am 100% convinced that the person is narcissistic. I cannot however always rule out some kind of autistic like condition as well. I think there are cases where more than one problem is present but only one or a few are identified. Care needs to be taken here. If someone has both mildly autistic characteristics but is also a narcissist then gets diagnosed as the former with the latter then treated as though it's due to the former then you have a major problem on your hands. There is some overlap between mild autistic like conditions and narcissism. I'm fairly asocial. I spend a lot of time with myself. I can be somewhat self centred in certain ways. I don't really know many people or anyone well. I only have myself to really talk about and I'm not all that interested in people. Where the condition can be differentiated from things such as narcissism, psychopathy and so on can be subtle. These things are not easy to detect. I know someone who is somewhat sociopathic who according to the normal psychological tests scores close to 100% for empathy. I score close to 0%. In practice this person does a lot of things that inflict hardship upon others that I just don't and wouldn't do. One tell for the difference is in considering directionality, frequency and boundaries. This particular person I refer to is one I notice a lot. I really need to be able to do things my own way to a large degree. This person is overly imposing and insists that other people do things the way they want. This is too the point where it's just not reasonable. This includes things like insisting on taking over how I make my own coffee. They are not entitled to this so they are emotionally and socially manipulative in their interferences. This is not so much of an autistic thing but a more of a narcissistic one. I should note that I have seen some pretty bad cases of Asperger's Syndrome that isn't really that. As far as I can see neither you nor I seem to be as extreme as what I refer to. The problem in that is that you have people who must do things their own way to the extreme in a group setting where the work is combined and then it really does become a problem for others. I struggle to work well in groups but do not bring them down in this way. These people will have to do something in a certain way that will absolutely bring down the team. In such cases it doesn't matter whether they can't help it or not. It's not different, the suffering it causes others is the same either way and people should not be forced to be subjected to that excessively.
I watched a licensed therapist on RUclips that mentioned how there should be a "Neurodiversity Umbrella" rather than directly labeling ADHD, ASD, OCD, NPD etc. That was you can moreso work with an individual's challenging traits when it comes to finding an equilibrium in society rather than trying to force a "fix". Honestly it's more a spectrum of Conformity to Non Conforming than something being inherently "wrong" about a person. By making groups were you "other" people, it might result in more harm than good, but it's tricky because in today's society, labels are also how we seek out individuals who are "safe" to us. I'd still be okay with a NT or ND company either way, but its hard for others to understand sensitivity and outbursts and selth soothing. I agree with you.
Oh ... dear 😭 I cried a lot watching this. You've had very similar experiences to me. I'm transgender and have been gender dysphoric (GD) from birth. Almost my early childhood friends were girls. 100% I was a girl (but needed ... erm ... a painful operation - what I said to my best friend at 7yo!). I had longish hair (1970's UK). In the same year, I put on her school dress, she put my hair in bunches (staying over at her house) and I intended to stand in front of my parents to say "Mummy, Daddy, I'm a girl. No, really, I am!" but I burst into tears and put my own clothes back on. I just buried what I was, was almost bullied to suicide (at secondary school) and coped as well as I could. I was very good at IT, very geeky and always suspected I was autistic (after I found out what it was in my late teens). After University, I married a covert/vindictive narcissist who love-bombed me until I worshipped the ground she walked on. I hated my body but did my duty so she could have children. I never told her that I was GD of course as from the start I had to walk on eggshells around her. When she had what she wanted, the psychological domestic violence/narcissistic abuse started. "You're so stupid. You're an idiot. You're fat. You're useless. Nobody would ever want you as a friend." etc (some far worse) on and on. Not on all days - so days she would be nice and reel me in with her hooks. On other days I would come home from work, make my excuses and curl up in a ball crying in a spare bedroom (silently so she wouldn't hear me). I developed depressive psychosis (and thought I was schizophrenic but hid that too). I wasn't allowed to be ill - that was reserved for her. Eventually I fought back a little and she treated me worse. After she had got the lifestyle, house, money and location she wanted from me, she destroyed me by getting me daughter (whom she manipulated) to accuse me. You know what I mean. No evidence, witnesses or proof - just accusations and it's all you need in the UK. I am now banned from contacting my (grown up children) for life (and my son was nothing to do with these unfair machinations). There is no way of proving I am innocent as there is no evidence either way (and there never was - it didn't happen)! I am a very gentle caring person (woman). I have never hurt anybody (and I'm a Buddhist). I've been subjected to DECADES of horrific abuse myself (with witnesses). Holy cow, I'm gender dysphoric - I've never been interested to intimate contact for myself! At this point I had lost everything and had nothing more to lose so I transitioned - something I should have done as a child/teen but it wasn't possible in the 70's/80's (maybe I could have done something at university but I was too frightened that I'd lose all my friends especially those in the Christian church). I was also tested for autism (I was in deep depression/mental illness due to everything that had happened). I was diagnosed as "highly functioning/masking autistic" (HFA) - which I had realized as I miss important social cues. Bottom line - if you realize you are in a relationship with a narcissist - run away as fast as you can. Break all contact. They will destroy you as they destroyed me.
I'm a sigma empath and have experienced full-blown narcissists. I would say I can pick up quite easily the intention of a narc to dominate, control, manipulate, invalidate others, plus most of their other traits. It is not 'similar to' or 'seems like'. They have no actual, genuine emotions, empathy, caring, for others (but can ACT like it), they have NO responsibility for their actions; twist everything around so THEY are the 'victim', they will use 'flying monkeys' against you, many other traits.
I don't consider myself too sensitive about stuff like this, but if the narcissist would repeatedly say this "one-up-me" type of stuff like "Oh your project is done? Well done!... Well, I had a project similar to yours, but it was 10 times more complex, but I managed to finish it of course" bla-bla-bla, then I would probably snap after some point and tell the narcissist something like "Oh, so your project was 10 times more difficult? It might be because your 10 times more difficult of a person than me.". Hell might brake out then, but at that point I already snapped, so what's it matter to me then.
If you've been under their power (as a parent or partner) it's much more likely to feel like narcissism than if you're friends. When there's lots of space and independence, it's easy to understand the intentions without getting hurt by the actions.
Autistic people description sounds like they are good and genuine people. Who decides that autism is not normal? Sounds like it's how all people should be in the social communications - open and sincere.
it seems funny how your explanations why the autistic style of thinking and communicating "just looks like" narcistic behaviour from the outside, while in reality it is of course, completly different. Got a lightbulb going on for you: This (!) is 100% what narcistists do when you confront them with their narcisistic behaviour. They will tell you, that they didn't mean it that way and that your perception of the situation is totally wrong and they are as innocent as can be, but maybe a little blunt and straightforward because they are just special people. but of course it wasn't ill intended, they were just ... whatever. This is narcistic defensive behaviour by the books: instead of taking responsibility you are defending your hurtful, disrespectful behaviour with your grandiosity/autism/specialness - all the same.
Good video. Narcissism doesn't necessarily mean NPD, but it's a pattern of behavior and a personality style (according to Dr. Ramani Durvasula, I'm not just pulling this outta my butt). I grew up with a narcissistic parent as well, who left plenty of those traits in me too, but I think it's our duty to learn about ourselves and be aware of those toxic traits in order to control them and become better people. I can easily excuse my behavior and blame it all on childhood trauma, but using my condition as a crutch is a pretty crappy thing to do imo. Some autistic people are clearly also Narcissistic, Elon Musk is probably the best example of what happens when you're both and surround yourself with enablers and yes men... Please don't be like that muskrat folks, educate yourself and keep striving to be better people.
I’m convinced that there are some more autistic people who claimed to be autistic, but they really are just narcissists, but they love to use this whole autistic thing
I doubt a true NPD who wasn't autistic would claim autism. It's too stigmatized. There are plenty of other things they could identify with instead that both garner admiration and sympathy. For example, I know one NPD who pretends to be very charitable and won't shut up about how empathetic and kind they are, and how no one appreciates them. They are one of the most toxic people I've ever met.
@@ProudlyAutistic I wonder if perhaps covert narcissists in the current culture of destigmatizing mental health would be willing to claim autism because it garners sympathy and can be viewed as being a victim.
I thought it was wrong to stigmatize any condition or diagnosis and that we should approach them all with support and compassion? What a telling response
It's interesting to read these comments about how autistics seem narcissistic. Before I was diagnosed at 42 with ASD, I was starting to feel like I was surrounded by narcissists and psychopaths. Turns out I was just surrounded by neurotypicals. I've been able to learn and understand our differences better now and can see theyre not trying to be as cruel as they come across. It goes both ways, I guess.
I have the strong suspicion that many NTs categorize anyone as narcissists who doesn't acknowledge their "natural authority". That's quite often autistic people who struggle understanding social order. Especially teachers seem to be prone to come to such conclusions. Many treat children like arch enemies for asking them something they didn't know the answer to.
Nice to hear someone say that it IS on us to soften our delivery, 1ce we are aware that we are upsetting people! I hear too much of the "this is who I am, you deal with it" rhetoric, mostly from autistic guys! Maybe it's a male thing? I mean so many women like us weren't diagnosed in childhood because "little girls need to look nice, act nice & make nice"! We knew we wouldn't get away with being little bulldozers like the boys! I have a question for you & I hope it doesn't offend: Why are you proud? I'm not saying you shouldn't be! I just find very little in my own world to be proud of. I struggle with feeling disgusted in myseof most of the time!
Wow. I actually just had a long conversation with a friend last week who apparently thought that I love gossiping. I said I am just bad at lying and say whats on my mind, and often the people close to me are on my mind, and I don't see the harm in sharing minor details about some random person that my friend will never meet. It ended up being a long conversation though with a lot of confusion on both sides. Never thought it might be an autism thing.
Yeah...lack of filter isn't specific to autism, but it definitely is common in autism. It sounds like you handled that situation well in regards to explaining your perspective. Hopefully you were able to work things out.
Interesting video. I guess it would be important to separate out the different traits of NPD that could also be attributable to autism (aloofness, avoidance, dismissiveness etc). If after doing that you still have someone who is manipulative and a pathological liar, then you're most likely looking at NPD rather than autism.
That's a big part of it yes. Definitely a red flag. However, there are plenty of immature people that can't take accountability that aren't technically narcissists. Not being able to admit they are wrong when presented with factual information (names, years, things that aren't open to interpretation) is a massive tell. They love having you question reality.
@david do you mean to recognize NPD? If so this is way too simplified a method. Because you'll still encounter the narc that fakes an apology in order to get into your good books. They're more shrewd than that.
I have seen autistic people who just gave up trying to please others because they always failed anyway and perceived any attempt to make them change behavior as just another attempt to make them feel bad about themselves. I definitely have been there myself at times before I knew about Autism. It's really difficult when you are constantly being told to be a bad person no matter what you do or how hard you try.
Frankly after dealing with MASSIVE invalidation for decades I don’t give a hamsters butt at this point if it’s intentional or not. Autism people shouldn’t use the diagnosis to be cruel and abusive. Fix your crap, YOU made a decision to be married. YOU own being an actual safe healthy adult instead of verbally abusing people.
Frankly, I do. I sincerely wish you the very best in your journey. I really do. Yet I plainly declare your lack of mercy and your shifting the blame to be absolutely appalling. You have the right to heal and recover. You do NOT have the right to lash out at an entire group of people, some of whom are trying very hard to adapt to a largely allistic world, and some who were indeed also abused by cluster B folks, including parents. See ya.
I agree with you that people who have autism aren't narcissist as the root cause of NPD is INSECURTY. I've realized people who have autism are really just trying to get by. But autistic people do tend be very self absorbed and self centered which just means they are mainly selfish. Being selfish is not narcissism everyone is capable of being selfish. People need to realize that being a bad person doesn't make you a narcissist. Also one thing you mention about people that have NPD is that they can get treatment but it only occurs when the narcissist has a substance abuse disorder or addiction because people with substance abuse disorder have a high likelihood of dying from overdose. Usually they tend to reflect with their own actions or decision makings, realizing that they've been the one's inflicting themselves making them want to change. You can't change a narcissist only they can change themselves.
I'm not a mental health professional so this is just my personal opinion. From my experience it's more likely a collection of narcissistic traits and poor coping skills that can be addressed through therapy and not true NPD. Our autistic traits can interfere with the ability to pull off many (particularly overt) narcissistic behaviors. However there are many people who have reached out to me saying they've seen covert narcissism in autism firsthand. We're not immune from the risk factors, so it's plausible. Anyone who has questions should seek out a mental health professional who specializes in BOTH autism and narcissism as they're best equipped to differentiate.
I understand that you say things at the wrong time but it’s not intentional. However, we’re all still responsible for our own words and actions. The harm and pain we cause others is still very real no matter your intentions. I’d love it if you’d add that.
I alluded to that at the end that we can still hurt people and we need to do what we can to make amends (provided the other person isn't dismissive of our real challenges). One of the real challenges between nt-autistic communication is that NTs assume autistic people have the capacity/self control to think like they do in a pinch. We don't. We have a different neurotype. So while we can understand theoretically and maybe we can bend our mind occasionally (masking) to suit others needs, it shouldn't be assumed we can "just" do what's expected. Communication is very difficult. It's not intuitive for us in the NT sense and we're constantly searching for what to say in the moment. We're going to mess up even on a good day. Add stress and other factors and we might blurt out things we really don't want to say. NTs need to be sympathetic of this (again, assuming there's recognition by the autistic person, but it can take us hours/days to process what actually happened).
It's also the responsibility of others to tell when we hurt them and why. I think we can expect from autistic people to stop this behavior once explained so that they can understand. Just expecting everyone just has to know isn't going to work even when it's considered "normal".
5:38 They do this because living by decree makes things a whole lot easier for them. They do this to shut you up, to dispense with you. This is because you won't shut up about your reality, which they do not care about. You exist for them.
So, because the intent is different even though the outcome could be the same, say gossip that undermines a colleague we need to condemn the behavior of a narcist but accept the behavior of someone who claims to be autistic?
It sounds like you think NTs always behave perfectly and only narcissists and autistic people harm others. The difference is, a narcissist won't correct the behavior when it's pointed out because he has an agenda. An autistic person will likely change the behavior when someone explains how the behavior is harmful and he/she has the capacity to change (conversations are often difficult enough without additional rules to follow). When NTs gossip they often just don't care about harming others because gossiping is accepted social behavior anyone participates in. Only when "weird" people do it, it's bad behavior that needs to be punished. It's like men flirting with women is perfectly fine if they are attractive but harassment otherwise.
Agree. I do sometimes wonder how much of it is simply a lot of traits rather than actual NPD. In my case I was highly susceptible to manipulation and mimicked what I knew. As soon as I got out of that bubble, I realized it was wrong. True NPDs aren't capable of self-reflection and change. I can see how many may be bound to their abusive parents or lack healthy social networks and therefore never have the opportunity to move beyond it.
i remember i was suspecting the CEO of the company i am working with is narcissist, and will be transforming the organization using iron fist, ruthlessly. Later on i have connected the dots after reading new research on correlation between if someone have kids in the spectrum - the deep one, there is a high chance that parents are in the spectrum too. And this guy was openly talking about this fact. After a year, nothing ruthless has happened, the dude just was mostly scared of simple things that for me it was weird to be afraid of, like too much communication :D
I don't really understand the difference between gossip and just talking about your friends lives. When i talk about my friends its because I care about them. I don't share secrets either, but someone does explicitly need to tell me not to share it with other people. Like if a friend was going through a divorce and i brought it up to another friend, im probably expressing either my saddness or happiness towards the situation, or potentially how i can help the friend feel better. I don't make up stuff about people, nor am i ever talking about something bad someone did unless it directly effected me. Like say if someone yelled at me and i said im upset because they yelled at me, for example.
The consistent pattern of the misunderstandings I’ve experienced from neurotypicals is the assumption that I have some kind of ulterior motive behind what I’ve said or done when I never do. I say exactly what I mean. It has taken a lifetime to understand that others don’t
I have had the same experience, and it’s so frustrating to me. This has caused serious communication issues for sure.
Ahhhhhh…
The subconscious has a way of manifesting itself regardless. So, there’s that.
@@62Movement It manifests itself in the assumptions one makes about other people’s motives, for example. The meaning you project onto other people’s behavior reveals more about you than the other person.
@@user-dm6jy5jr9o
Projection as opposed to [what]?
I’m not saying the subconscious is going to be recognized at all. By the person doing the behavior. By the person observing the behavior.
There certainly is an element of interpretation… both folks must interact, of course. If you don’t understand you can speak up (perhaps you “should” speak up and ask for clarification yet there’s a can of worms with that, too).
;)
It's because dishonesty or omission of the truth **is** a necessary part of empathy. NT or ND-- everyone suffers with total honesty. To illustrate this point: If a child gives you a drawing and asks you what you think of it, most people are socialized to lie because we care about the feelings of the child. You say "that's wonderful sweetheart. It's so colorful! You look so proud of yourself" . A caring adult does not say exactly what they think: "This doesn't look anything like a horse and all the colors have combined into an ugly, unreadable mess." Because that would hurt the child's feelings right now and would discourage them from making stuff and showing it to us in the future.
Women in particular are socialized to put as much weight on other people's feelings as their own-- so it doesn't even feel like dishonesty to a highly empathetic person to give the answer that preserves the other person's sense of confidence/wellbeing. "I like the red dress better" is the diplomatic way of saying "The blue dress looks terrible on you" even if "the blue dress looks bad" is the more honest answer. This constant diplomacy on other people's behalf *IS NECESSARY* for raising children. The parent is literally regulating the emotions of children that are in process of learning how to regulate themselves. They are teaching children the way to talk to themselves and others--which is hopefully kind and not full of unnecessary and toxic criticism. People that are patient with children are by design **and** necessity good liars. They are also the same population that is patient with people with disabilities or difficulties. High empathy and a strong verbal filter go hand in hand.
You're framing is that NT's nonsensically think Autistics have an ulterior motive when the autistic is just being honest. But NT's have been socialized to not give unnecessary criticism, so criticism is perceived as an intentional choice to them. When an NT says "the blue dress looks bad" instead of "I like the red dress better" they are doing it intentionally to hurt someone. So they make the logical, to them, conclusion, that if you had cared about their feelings you would not say "the blue dress looks bad".
NT's don't see 'preventing emotional harm' as lying, and they do see failure to prevent emotional harm as asshole behavior because that is the hallmark of assholes--they don't care if they inflict emotional harm. Unfortunately, autistics are much more susceptible to asshole behavior because it would never occur to them to have a kinder way of saying something and choosing the more hurtful option. Autistics do not harm others to intentionally humble them. It does not occur to them that anyone would. They act like everyone is doing the best they can. But that is just factually incorrect. And for this reason NT's are better at discovering assholes.
But that also makes the unintentional cruelty of autistic honesty and the intentional cruelty of jerks really hard for an NT to separate. And....a lack of intention does not always matter. Cruel words are cruel words. Even the most bluntly honest autistic person on the planet does not want to **hear** the total blunt honesty of someone else telling them they are irritating every. single. time. they are irritating. It hurts to hear "you're irritating" --even if it's worded like "the way you eat hurts my ears" or "go away".
Sensory overload, anxiety etc can make me shut down. And look like I don't care about others..
Yeah, I mentioned that indirectly (emotional overload is what I referenced). I can definitely get to a point where I become non-communicative and am blurting random words out. It appears really hostile, but I'm just trying to get out of the situation. I should probably do a video about when we get overwhelmed in social situations and how to effectively manage it.
Same here, I hate it 😢
Exactly 💯 I hope it will get better for you Barbz. 🙏🏽🤍I've noticed mine goes way down as long as I'm taking care of myself properly. Ketovore diet, enough sunshine, walk barefoot outside, healthy stimming, skin brushing 3x a week for lymphatic system, detoxing & Faith, etc... Even found shielding from WiFi (getting wired Ethernet connection) & staying the heck away from Smart Meters, & be on my cellphone much less has helped a whole heck of a lot too. The fact we can hear electricity humming proves we are much more electrosensitive & sensitive to all these new frequencies (that have popped up in the past 20 years) much more than the general population. I joke around a lil & tell others that we're truly the Canaries in a Coal Mine alerting the rest of the population how horrible these modern day conveniences are. I really need to finally launch something talking about these tips cuz I'm not seeing many talk of all of these to help with Autism who is also Autistic. I'm just a lil nervous still cuz I didnt find out I was Autistic till this year, so I'm still getting acclimated into accepting this & processing everything. It takes time. I've done special interest research on all of these things, plus have tested it & they check out.
As an autistic person I am so proud of you for fighting and recognising your traits. And I have had so many similar experiences in my career to the point of withdrawing from the workforce alltogether, because it caused so deep depressions and autoimmune disease. So, Thank you so much for your work. Greetings from Germany🙂
Thank you!
I have a covert narcissistic mom. it's amazing that we can educate ourselves and get away from unhealthy relationships. congrats.
I hope you've been able to find a good support network. I know, it's hard to find your identity and relearn boundaries as an adult 💛
I have autism and bpd. Basically I was so abused as an autistic person growing up that my brain underwent neurodevelopmental changes resulting in bpd.
I was almost diagnosed with BPD. I was in the process of getting that diagnosis when my practitioner realized it was actually autism. Sorry you had a difficult childhood. I did too and it's very hard to heal from. I hope you have good people in your life now 💛
Autism and cptsd can also be misdiagnosed as bpd, especially if you been abused in adult age by relation to a narsisisst that has retraumatized you back to your abusive childhood.
@@itb7439this happened to me, and I can't shake the feeling of guilt and shame around this... That I chose it... That I stayed..... That I accepted it..... That I didn't leave..... I can't stop my mind from making me out to be stupid.
Having grown up as an undiagnosed AuDHD with a narcissist parent, it's easy to spot their brand of dysfunction but also immediately exhausting to deal with.
That said, a lot of the discourse about autism seems to presume not only that we don't mean to disrupt neurotypical expectations but that we want to be accommodating of them in order to get along. I take issue with that because as a late-diagnosed AuDHD person I spent the majority of my life working on myself to make sense of my difference from others and I don't think we ought to be so accommodating or aspire to bridge the gap between our own nature and neurotypical social customs so easily.
When I infodump it's because my priority is to meaningfully contextualize the topic for others. I feel *obliged* to do this because it is my responsibility to communicate clearly, particularly across neurotypes. MY expectation as an autistic person is that, if the other person doesn't want to hear it, they will tell me as much. Period. I am aware of their physical/unspoken expressions but I don't presume to read their minds by it. There's no offense taken when they express a plain statement of disinterest because I respect their boundaries and their candor and expect the same in return.
It's not only our language that is sometimes formalised but also our behaviour; once we learn the rules we act prescriptively and proactively in conversation to both maintain order/expectations and to effectively accomplish our goals/tasks. In that sense I think masking is a form of neurodiplomacy we undertake as the ambassadors for our own difference.
It took a lot of time prediagnosis for me to understand that that can seem narcissistic to others but it's worth powering through their misunderstanding because one is entitled to be oneself and, if they are genuinely committed to our mutual understanding (there's that sense of diplomacy again) then they, too, will make an effort to respectfully meet us halfway.
Often, neurotypical privilege short-circuits that desire for mutual understanding. People will project their frustration as, "you're just being difficult." That's on them. Having grown up with a narcissist I am still inherently conditioned to feel guilty setting boundaries but it is nevertheless our right as individuals to have and maintain those boundaries for ourselves. 😊
neurodiplomacy is such a genius word, I will use it now whenever needed! 😊
@vivvy_0 Thanks, glad it's useful! I'm also fond of the word, "neuroprivilege", as it clarifies that our sociopolitical circumstances are also inherently challenged by the majority's perceptions of (our) difference.
I really appreciate this. I am autistic, and so is my father (he is not diagnosed, but I am *absolutely* positive), and I have always wondered if I was suffering “regular” abuse from him, or actual narcissistic abuse. This has helped me realized that he is just a very self-important and unkind person on *top* of being autistic (but likely not a diagnosable narcissist). He couldn’t pretend to be concerned to save his life 🙃 Funnily enough, he’s accused me of being a narcissist just for not putting up with his nonsense… interesting how that works. So sorry you’ve had to fight against this! ❤
This is such a useful video. The detail and accuracy in observing narcissism v autism is absolutely spot on. Great information. Unfortunately I have an autistic family member who is also a narcissist, she is exhausting to be around! It’s interesting to observe her autistic traits separate from her narcissistic traits: sometimes they seem very different, sometimes they merge and it is difficult to distinguish between the two.
Covert/vulnerable narcissistic behavior can present so differently than overt narcissists. It would be interesting to hear a similar style video with those traits.
Thank you for covering this topic
Yes, they present differently, but the underlying traits are the same (there's not two separate diagnostic criteria). I have enough material to make several more of these comparison videos, depending on how well this one does. With covert narcissists, the focus is much more on resentment and victimization rather than presenting a facade. I can try to speak better to that perspective next time. Thank you for watching!
@@ProudlyAutistic I hope this video does well, it was very interesting!
It's doing well, it just had a slow start. I'll probably post a follow up in the next 2-3 weeks.
@@ProudlyAutistic looking forward to it!
That's the problem, isn't it? There's no real way to know the other person's intentions OR for people to truly know ours. There are narcissistic and abusive autistics who DO use their autism as an excuse too. I'm Audhd, for Context, having a dysfunctional family system of neurodivergent people AND potentially narcissistic abuse...it just gets SUPER hard to know what's real. Especially after being gaslit for a lifetime, and especially by a covert abusive parent. It's all so tangled up.🎶 "MOTHEEERRRRRR KNOWS BEST!" 🎶 Thanks for your video.
Your channel is helping me understand my "blind spots", when it comes to manipulative people & narcissists. I am thinking more and more that I am autistic. Although I have engaged in negative / toxic gossip in the past, your explanation of how autists will gossip with out even knowing it, or easily not even recognize personal information or boundaries are being crossed, makes me remember how many times I was manipulated for information to share gossip.
Glad you're finding it helpful. Yeah, sadly we tend to walk into manipulative situations often.
This video is a gem. You described this so well. My husband is autistic & was raised by 2 Narcissistic Parents. He is your twin brother. You are so wonderful to share this!
Thank you. Depending on how well this video does, it will become a series as I have many other behaviors to compare. I hope your husband is doing better, it's such a hard thing to navigate.
@@ProudlyAutistic I really hope this video is doing well enough to make this a series. 😍
I am so happy to hear you have even more ideas for more of this important, autehtic insights in autistic behaviour.
I profit twice form your videos because I learn about my own behaviour (am late diagnosed since 4 years ago), and how to explain it to others. 👍
All the love and thankyou's, from vienna, to you.😍
It had a slow start, but it's doing ok now. I'll post a follow up in the next 2-3 weeks.
I was married, briefly. (if you call two years brief) to a covert narc. He dismissed my adult son's autism as lazy and attention seeking. I am thankful I completely ignored the narc's raging and unkindness, to the detriment of my health, and got both me and my son out of the exposure to this narc. My son is on his way to getting the help he needs, and is in a relationship with a very kind, understanding partner who treats him as valuable and smart.
I love the authenticity of your channel. I could never put myself out there like that.
Everything has plausible deniability since we can NEVER understand or know another’s intentions.
Go for transparency every time, the chips fall where they may and you may get burned. If one actually deeply understands their own motivations and intentions then they know if they’re trying to manipulate.
Everyone IS trying to manipulate their situation. We manipulate, “manage” and control ourselves… we try to.
If we succeed in knowing ourselves fully then it’s not so difficult to accept we ARE trying to manipulate situations. What is the difference between this and narcissism? Knowing that we KNOW our intentions are for all folks to succeed.
If you truly KNOW your intentions and can TELL others your goals upfront… it’s not like you can’t get your way… it’s just easier when others are also respectful of their intentions with yours.
Communication is difficult because we’re not patient enough to really express our goals, to make certain they’re clear and then listen to others intentions and goals.
We’re all expected to move too fast about it.
And when there’s someone afraid to have an opinion or make a decision at all, much less quickly, one must ask of themselves… am I really just too afraid to have boundaries and my own ideas? Maybe I should explore what I actually do think or feel.
Making a decision could be manipulating others.
Not making a decision could be, too.
We can encourage or prevent people from accomplishing anything. Just look at how difficult it is to get our politicians to agree to do something good for the majority. It only takes one person to mess it up. That one person probably isn’t as nice as they think they are.
When everyone else sees that you have a problem working towards solutions, you have a problem working towards solutions.
If that’s you… get out of the way.
If you have people like that around you? Get out of the way.
There’s never an easy way.
Autism is one of many scapegoats for narcissists. Also, isolation produces "autism-like" behavior, meaning most of us were neglected.
My sister and I thought our mother was a narcissist after her death. But, over the past couple months, I fell into a rabbit hole on autism as my sister was researching it because she was pretty sure her son is. We simultaneously concluded she was actually autistic. She determined her son is autistic, as well as herself, but also that I have Asperger's. I had already determined my wife and daughter are, and, now that we know, we can adjust things to accommodate and reduce or prevent burnout. It took a lot more research and self examination for me to see the Aspergers because I basically have a character operating system running for dealing with the world. But, in that research, I realized my only friend of 25 years is also asperger autistic. He laughed when I mentioned it to him, thinking I was just seeing autism everywhere. Then he saw video of an IT professional announcing he was diagnosed. When he described what lead him to being evaluated, it was like the guy was talking about him.
A few days after he told me he was, my wife asked me if "normal" people did something like we do. I stopped, thought for a second, and, for the first time in my life, I had to say I had no clue. I realized I've never been close enough to nuerotypical people to be able to know. Everyone I've known and loved have all been autistic.
I’m autistic and I’ve been struggling to identify my sister as an autistic or narcissist. I always thought she was a narcissist, but after I learnt I was autistic, I thought maybe she was too and she was just misunderstood. But this video and other sources reaffirm me belief that she is a narcissist. Mainly two reasons: she has always been a dishonest person-lies, manipulation, sabotage. I and all the other autistic people I know highly value honesty and wouldn’t engage in this behaviour. The second reason, is ego, and myself and the autistics I know don’t have big egos or a strong sense of self that lends to it. In fact, my doctor to,d me it’s one of the defining qualities of autistic people: we view ourselves as logically and somewhat at a distance that prevents most of us from becoming egotistical.
Anyway, narcissism and autism seem to run in my family and it’s sometimes hard to distinguish between the two. Your video, however, helps a lot. Thank you.
Well done! One thing I’m concerned about it that sometimes it’s not gaslighting, it’s genuinely being afraid for someone’s mental health who may have perception issues due to trauma or the nature of their diagnosis. I’ve been called “condescending” for being truly concerned by someone going through a mental health split or crisis.
Show through actions, the care, rather than saying it perhaps? Person has probably been gaslit before and is now very wary.
Great video, this topic should be explored more. I was unsure if a behavioral tic or two i observed in a narck was high-functioning autism, but realized it was really cluster B stuff and finally either borderline or full-blown malignant communal NPD by the end. They had very strong resources and coping strategies and, of course, incredible excuses. It's too bad that autism might be confused for this but i think the difference might be that they could be convinced to be more honest about vulnerabilities which is crucial in forming a decent relationship and ironically might make them better at it than the NPDs.
My former wolf pastor gaslighted me in that way. His battle cry was, “You need help! You need psychiatric care!” It was awful and scary. I’m at a much safer church now where the pastors don’t do that.
I prefer just to call people bullies. Both autistic and allistic people can be bullies. Bullies always put their own feelings and desires, even relatively moderate ones, first. They turn their own wants into needs and the needs of others into wants. If they find out they hurt someone, they double down and claim they didn’t and that THEY are, in fact, the victim. There is a persistent pattern of this, not just one misunderstanding, unusual personal need, or bad day. They may seem to respect the needs/desires of others, but only when these do not conflict significantly with their own.
Or jerks lol. We're not immune from being either. The problem is when people overuse the term "narcissist" simply because they don't understand us, even when we're well intentioned.
Unsolicited: Please like, subscribe, and share this extremely important video. Thank you for this video.
Tip: a rule of thumb is to lead the conversation into repair by asking the intent of the person without directly saying was that intentionally hurtful. Something like, "I seemed to have missed something. What you said seemed rude/hurtful ect". Then pay close attention to the response. You can usually work out where you stand, but you want to avoid apologising first if you think the other person is a Narcissist. If you hear a healthy response, you can proceed with apologising and reconciling.
This is exactly what I need. My narc has intent and is also Autistic or has an Autistic diagnosis. I keep trying to explain what you have said: it is about intention, control, and manipulation. A typical Autistic person or a person diagnosed with Autism response is, "sorry I do NOT understand, but I am sorry. I do NOT want to hurt you. What can I do"? Even when the person who is Autistic or diagnosed with Autism is actually in the right. That is a really tricky conversation because I try explain that I am sorry. I actually have to accommodate you. I did NOT realise. However exactly what you are saying Autistic people or people with Autistic diagnosis are "usually well intention" and come to a genuine request to repair. Actually Autistic people or people with Autism are actually incredible in their intention to NOT harm. I also do NOT want to harm and am looking for genuine repair and reconciliation. I have tried therapy over and over with my Narcissist. Each time I heal further and NO change in the other person.
You are spot on. The rule of thumb is the intention. Autistic people or people with Autism do NOT seek control, have NO malicious intent and in fact are burnt by their "Narcissistic" behavior because it is Autistic behavior.
I hear your struggle. You are definitely NOT a narcissist. You seek therapy and healing. You are uncomfortable and are trying to heal. You are very articulate and deal very comprehensively with this difficult topic. I hope that you get the healing that you are searching for, but I am glad that you are self-compassionate. It does amaze me that you are able to articulate and speak so comprehensively and respectfully AND stay clear (I ALWAYS use capitals as emphasis, unless I specify otherwise) in your communication. What you said was incredibly well said. Well done. Thank you again.
What I can say is that I am sorry you suffered, but I am grateful you are able to help others with this important video. This is the first video I have seen, but I am sure your content is as good because you know what you are speaking about. You speak intelligently and have a really important message. Thank you for sharing it.
Thank you so much for this kind comment. You touched on an important issue relating to navigating narcissists. I'm not great at that as it's my nature to fawn, but I think that would be a great topic for the future. I'm still feeling out the direction for this channel as it's still relatively new, but I suspect issues relating to relationships/advocating for ourselves/mental health is where I need to live. Thank you again 💛
@ProudlyAutistic I hope you have much success with your video and even more success with your life and health. I would like to learn more about the tools you use to navigate your interactions with narcs. I am NOT on the Spectrum, but I gain from your insights, experiences, and tools. I appreciate the way you communicate. I still have only watched this 1 video, but would like to watch more, just a time issue. I am looking forward to see how well your channel does soon.
It seems the major difference is the “intent” behind the behaviours but the behaviours are frightfully similar. When you’re on the receiving end it’s vey difficult to the distinguish and understand 🤷♂️
I wish I would’ve been here in the beginning when this video first uploaded but absolutely yeah I’ve been accused of being a narcissist. What’s new this whole autistic mind blindness and the problem with people on autism spectrum we struggle with going outside of our tendencies which there is double empathy, problem mind blindness, there’s even, what is it reciprocity issue other problematic things the biggest problem is most people think we should act the same way as other people we don’t we perceive information differently we perceive the world differently. We feel differently and some of us have baggage that can make it even harder for people to understand from an emotional point of view that we are disconnected a lot of the time from our own emotions as well as understanding the complications of other peoples emotions and being able to put ourselves in other person shoes when all we can see is our own reality, making it very difficult to be able to jump into somebody else’s shoes making it very difficult to see any other perspective but our own we can get better but it’s something that we have to choose to grow and some of us just choose not to so it can be complicated. I know this topic all too well.
Very informative video thank you. I needed this
My mother is narcissistic and some sociopathic traits. I was also accused of being a narcissist by a former friend who was a psychologist. 😢😢. It's taken me years to work through in therapy.
I'm so sorry. I also developed a lot of narcissistic traits from my parent. When you're raised in that environment, you adapt to survive and please the narcissist. However. When I became an adult and had relationships outside my home, I realized how abnormal my upbringing was and that that's not how you treat others. The ability to recognize that the behavior is bad and that you don't want to act that way is a massive tell that your aren't truly a narcissist. It took me a long time to fight the impulses ingrained into me and I'm much better now. Glad things are getting better for you as well. Thank you for watching!
Don't forget the former friend could be narcissistic as well. Keep those sorts of people out of your life
I am glad she is now a former friend
The fact that they specifically use our autism label against us to make it look like we're an unreliable narrator of our own reality is just evil and sick. They love to flaunt that as a reason why we're supposed to feel fundamentally inferior and undeserving. Curious how I only ever seem to feel that way around my family, and generally not out in the real world or at work where I'm just treated like any other random and capable person.
Thank you for the advice at the end and just the whole video really, it was very validating for me to hear an autistic persons experience with NPD. Also, I am so sorry that you had to experience that in the first place.
I'm not diagnosed or anything, though I'm about 90% sure I'm autistic+ at this point (7 months of research in) and naturally it led me to re-examine my life and experiences. Which then led me to looking at the people close to me and starting to realise that I've probably dealt with NPD among other things in my childhood and adult relationships (on top of the existing trauma), though I was at the point of thinking I was being dramatic as surely I couldn't have had to deal with that much abuse (gaslighting myself maybe?). So to hear that you had to deal with it from your mum and a/some romantic partner/s is like I said, incredibly validating.
Also, you mentioning the co-morbid possibility between Autism and NPD was interesting as it was something I have been looking into with my current housemate/partner (it's a weird dynamic) but with ADHD and NPD. Theres also seems to be an interesting connection between ASPD and Autism where some individuals (myself included) report better friendships though this seems to be for various reasons, some not so nice. I could probably write an entire essay on that alone to be honest.
Anyway sorry for the mini infodump/essay in your comments, I tried to keep it as succinct as possible.
My autistic partner has admitted they gasligt me, and that the motivation was to control and deceive me. I know because they told me so. There is a black and white idea being pushed that autistic people cannot be manipulative because they often are interpreted as being manipulative, but the reality is more nuanced. My other autistic friends have told me my partner is abusive and that autism may be an explanation for some but not all of her behavior, and that it isn't an excuse. We are talking about spectrums.
They are not closely linked. It is that the npd has a way of misumderstanding the enviroment. Npd is a neurodivergence too, but its inner mechanics are very different from the inner autistic mechanics. The link is often viewed from the outside as "similar"
@@ctlo4403I think this is completely nonsense. Some behavior might appear similar to outsiders but they are caused by completely different causes and goals. For most NTs it's enough when others behave a bit differently than what they expect to throw them into a bucket "weird" without caring about details. That doesn't make it the same.
It's unlikely that someone who tries to gaslight admits doing it. This sounds quite fishy. I can imagine he/she tries to imitate behavior he/she experienced as an attempt to fit in because that's how "normal" people behave.
I don't really trust the autistic label any longer because for mild social problems it's extremely unreliable. I would not be surprised if your partner were not really autistic. Lets however say that they are. I have observed that people seem to have this strange kind of logic that they apply where it's assumed that if someone is autistic then they are separate to the rest of the population and can't have be a psychopathy, narcissist, sociopath, etc. It's very clear that these labels are being picked due to the social perspective of them. You always hear people coming out and saying they are autistic like it's a badge of honour. You always see in the recommendations to videos like this things such as five signs it's both, autistic and ADHD. Two conditions without much stigma. Autistic now really refers to something so mild that as with ADHD it's not clear if it's a disorder or simply being different. You never hear things such as it's autism and psychopathy or its ASD and BDP. On that subject there are a number of cases where the first thing I've heard said is ASD but the first problem I actually see is BDP.
@FirstLast-rb5zj What I have seen most people go through various stages of diagnosis like BPD until they get an Autism diagnosis. ADHD seems to be diagnosed more often. For people with Autism it's definitely not a badge of honor. It's foremost an explanation for their struggles. Sure, there are people who jump onto many things they find online and assume too quickly that this might be the explanation they were looking for. That muddies the water a bit. If you are looking for a label that makes you so special that only few can claim they suffer from the same, you might be the problem.
This is so well put. I wonder if you are aware of the Lucy Letby case in the UK. It looks this this could actually be autism for exactly the reasons you explain. The detailed linear thinking was one of the reasons people felt she was guilty. The distinction between gaslighting and just shutting down a conversation is really good. I wasn't actually aware of this and I bet not every autistic person is aware of the difference either. Likewise gossip, dominating conversations etc
Exactly how it is with a narcissist, and interesting the information on autism. Learning to distinguish the repeated behaviour of a narcissist and that of autistic people is so important. Once you’ve had the displeasure of being entangled with a narcissist, there is a tendency to be paranoid looking for red flags and blanketing anyone with that label. 👏Excellent upload.
Such misunderstandings arise due to how society throws around names of psychological disorders willy-nilly.
Indeed, we all can be narcissistic, but NPD is a clinically significant form that embodies extreme and consistent patterns of behavior.
Having very strong empathy as an autistic may lead to shutting down, ignoring disruptive stimuli, or disengaging. Too much empathy is a heavy burden to bear. So while one might say such behaviors are egotistical or even narcissistic, they are subclinical in terms of NPD.
Completely agree. The term is waaay overused and often in the wrong context. For example, possessing behaviors that on the surface seem like narcissistic traits and actually having narcissistic traits are two completely separate things. And even having narcissistic traits doesn't necessarily make you a narcissistic (NPD). It depends on the severity, longevity, and pervasiveness.
This video is making me think of who has been narcissist in my life in the past. People have. It hurts you. They only think of themselves.
Yeah, it's all about them. Best to avoid if you can or create firm boundaries with distance if they're family. I went no contact with my parents over 10 years ago. It's sad.
Thank you so much for this video. Means so much to me. I was worried when I seen the title but hearing this has validated the decisions I unfortunately had to make moving forward with my life.
Thanks
Thank you, I appreciate it 💛
thank you, this is really helpful and interesting
My takeaway though, is if the impact on relationships is very similar, the intent can't be the first consideration. Autistic people and narcissistic people frequently both become defensive when confronted - for different reasons - but if their behavior hurts others and they fail to validate and apologize for it, the impact is the same. Autistic people can accidentally gaslight IMO, if they are unable and unwilling to consider other people's reality or perspectives as valid because it doesn't match the reality and perspective in their own head or expectations of what should happen, patterns they believe are "right", etc.
The intent is everything. Because it is the guiding light for you to know how you will take the next step in dealing with the situation.
When you're dealing with an actual narc, no amount of understanding and patience will work to rescue them. There has never been a known case of a narc changing for the better, and so you have to recognize that in order to know to leave.
On the other hand, if the person is not a narc and has another thing, then you can maybe hang around and try adapt and work things out because the person is capable of empathy and is trying.
Thank you for making these distinctions. My covert narcissistic mother swears to this very day I have to be Aspie. She called me "Little Professor" all the time as a child. I probably am, but have yet to secure a diagnosis. (My younger child has, and my older child decided not to seek one.) I was accused of NPD by the psych expert at my SSA disability hearing. I was also accused of narcissistic behavior when I moderated for a few narcissistic abuse recovery YT channels-- I reckon some did not understand my expressions of double empathy, and thought I was self-absorbed and uncaring. It hurt a lot, yet do suspect that some smear campaigns by a borderline community member had something to do with it. I do care, so I really do appreciate your channel.
I see this in comment sections often.
"All autistic people gaslight" etc.
I was accused of gaslighting when someone claimed I was saying something and I tried to explain that it was not what I was saying at all.
Yes, some are quick to jump and make assumptions on intent when you communicate differently than them.
as diagnosed Autistic person since I was in Grade 3, I've always felt NT gaslight me. I had no clue though that I have Auditory Processing problems when overwhelmed. I literally don't process what I hear. So people can say to 5 sentence I hear them all but process one them. The later on they say to me I told you X, I'm insistent they never told me at all. What I'm feeling gaslighted but so they. Now how weird is that.
I look at this like network router start just dropping packets because it can't process them due network congestion. Some might get through but most don't. My brain is like that. Sure the physical link is up and working but some of the packets are getting dropped.
@chrismaxwell
I love the analogy. And I can relate to that. It is difficult to explain to others why this occurs. My brain has too many tabs open sometimes and I cannot process everything all at once.
Totally relate. :(
@@Daily_Bread84I think this has a lot to do with anxiety when we try to hear out subtitles that might or might not be there in order to avoid conflict caused by miscommunication. This is an additional load for the brain others don't have in addition to our difficulties with reading emotions, maintaining eye contact, .... It's a death spiral.
From my experience with Narcissistic individuals I feel like their actions are not deliberate or calculated but more of a defence mechanism. For example cheating on your wife and then blaming her for something she did or didn’t do, I think it’s just the inner-narcissist protecting the fragile ego from the realisation that the person is not perfect when their existence and identity is formed around the belief that they are flawless, superior and better than everyone else.
Thank you, this is exactly what I have been searching for. My husband is abusive narcissistic but autism runs in his family. My 13 yr old son was diagnosed with autism and I am so afraid that he just may be narcissistic as well because he copies so much of the insults that my husband voices. And my question is about the rambling of details. My son does this even when I tell him to stop several times, he refuses to stop. Why won't he stop despite my persistence? I mean I literally tell him sometimes that I don't care and I don't want to hear anymore. So it's not like he has to guess. By the way Narcissistim is genetic, it has been disproven that trauma has anything to do with developing the disorder.
Very interesting, thank you.
I also grew up in an abusive family, and sometimes I wonder if I could be autistic. I certainly have a lot of abandonment issues, was an "invisible child", daydreaming, internalising and dissociating a lot. There seems to be a sort of "quiet Borderline" and I was incapable of holding jobs... burnt out and collapsing after a few weeks most of the times. So I also tried to get help... and one or two times they diagnosed me with "NPD" in such cases.
I can read single people (kind of feel what they feel), but am incapable of understanding most of the group dynamics.
It's hard to say. Maybe worth looking into? It also could be complex PTSD. That really messes with your behavior/outlook.
I need to watch this about 30 times.
Glad it's helpful. This is the first in a series. I mentioned 3 behaviors here. I have 7 more planned that I'll post in the next month or two.
I have done some of these gaslighting behaviors in the past, but not to manipulate. I had always thought that I had a really good memory. It turns out that I have a good memory for certain things, but a poor memory for others. My behaviors were because I actually did not remember something correctly, but I was convinced that what I was remembering was correct, and that the other person was mistaken. This happened a lot over many years, until I realized that my memory was actually not very good.
Outstanding -ly precious analysis, and getting it across.
My Parents made me feel like I was broken, I was never right, and I cried a lot. As I spent my life questioning myself and confronting my memories and their opinion about me, I felt imperfect.
How could they see one thing and I see another. When I discovered I was autistic my life made sense and their behavior was their attempt to make me a pawn in their game.
I had a similar experience. Not knowing was painful. Glad you have clarity now 💛
Thank you Karen 🙏 very clear and understandable . This really helps me to understand 🙏
I found this REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY HELPFUL
Thanks, I'm glad you have a yt channel, i really like hearing your thoughts and perspective, it resonates and I sense intelligence, and empathy. 💜
Thank you.
This is so helpful! Thank you. 💜
I've been fairly sure for a while that my father was Autistic (considering that I am too) but the small amount I knew about narcissism made me question whether he had NPD. It doesn't help that so much of what's out there about abuse is about NPD. But this video makes it really clear to me that he was just a very rigid, very angry Autistic person. Thank you for laying it out so well.
Was your father undiagnosed?
@camellia8625 Yes. He deeply distrusted all mental health professionals.
My mother and an Ex are so called "covert Narcissists" they are so evil. I am AuDHD and have been with an autistic man for 5 years. The difference? The Narcs made me be depressed and suicidal, developing Cptsd, until I turned 50 and got out
I struggle with communication and so I have been been accused that my ‘always having the safest and correct thing to say’ and that my (scripted) speech is too smooth so I must be a manipulating person or predator when I was simply trying to be empathetic.
Vice versa - as an autistic person who has always dated narcissists thinking they were also just autistic. Rough.
Oof. I'm sorry 😞
I think some autistic people can gaslight in attempts to control others due to severe anxiety.
I feel quite emotional after watching this video, thank you so much for explaining the differences of traits and behaviour so clearly ❤ my daughter is narcissistic and highly manipulative… I love her and want her to get help, she refuses and is now insisting she is autistic (I’m not saying she isn’t btw) She is working with autistic children currently and obviously recognises similarities in herself in behaviour.
I really appreciate this video explaining the similarities and differences - I want to help my daughter, would definitely love to see more videos ❤❤
Thank you, yes I will be doing more of these. Perhaps encourage her to seek an autism diagnosis? Maybe not so much for the autism diagnosis, but for her to start talking to mental health professionals. Unfortunately this is something she'll need to figure out herself. Calling her a narcissist will likely just push her away. Please take care of yourself, I know this dynamic is hard 💛
@@ProudlyAutistic bless you, I haven’t called her narcissistic and it’s even difficult for me to admit, she has asked for a diagnoses for autism but this is years away in the UK they are so far behind, I’ve subscribed to your channel and look forward to future information xx
There are a couple of psychological tests you could take if you’re curious about this:
One is called the Narcissistic Personality Inventory (NPI). This one is frequently used by researchers and aligns with the DSM’s description of NPD, accounting for external displays such as grandiosity and exploitation.
Another test is called the Pathological Narcissism Inventory (PNI). This is a newer test that accounts for both the external and internal traits of narcissism (so both grandiosity and vulnerability).
Both tests are used by professional psychologists but you can find free versions online.
This is really helpful. Thank you! ✌🏽💚👏🏽
What though, to do about it? I have a coworker who I absolutely believe to have autism, who I am regularly stressed out by and I don’t have another term than gaslight to use- I get the intent is different, but if a (also not neurotypical ADHD’er) is begging an autistic person to stop the challenges, because they find them so destabilizing.
The harm is still there.
I think they deserve the "jerk" title if you're explicitly stating your boundaries or what you find invalidating and they continue to plow ahead anyway with zero apparent care.... or even worse, they throw it in your face. There does need to be some accountability, even if it's a simple recognition that it's hard for them to understand your perspective, but they still appreciate your contribution. On the flip side, you should also understand that they communicate/think differently than NTs (and ADHDers in many ways) and to set your expectations accordingly (not saying you haven't).
Also adding, if they aren't diagnosed, they may not understand their behavior. Diagnosis adds so much context and ability to understand ourselves and others. If they're undiagnosed, they may have grown bitter from constant people pleasing and never being good enough. They may be to the point they just don't care anymore. Not your problem to solve, but some context. A lot of us have significant trauma.
They can’t change or fix or work on what they don’t even know they have. Many of us take years just to learn about autism, let alone to try to change it…so to walk up to a coworker who has autism and tell them to stop doing what they’re doing is not going to go very far. In fact there are many more people in the world who are unaware that they have autism than there are people who are aware that they have autism.
I agree.. The Casandra Syndrome is for real
@@sissyrayself7508, well that is a new term for me. Thank you. We are not pursuing a friendship any longer and I was told their diagnosis was none of my business (and that’s also true) I just found relief in my adult diagnosis of ADHD and I just wanted the same for them… but truly, it’s not my business.
There is a complication here. I am certain that people who are narcissistic or who have other disorders are misdiagnosed as being autistic due to the lower social stigma. It's not hard to work out if you think about it. People with various conditions are so extreme that they can't acknowledge it. If someone has NPD it would make them look bad if diagnosed with NPD. They would likely however have social difficulties because of it that cannot be entirely ignored.
There are also potentially mixed cases. There are a few cases I've come across where I am 100% convinced that the person is narcissistic. I cannot however always rule out some kind of autistic like condition as well. I think there are cases where more than one problem is present but only one or a few are identified. Care needs to be taken here. If someone has both mildly autistic characteristics but is also a narcissist then gets diagnosed as the former with the latter then treated as though it's due to the former then you have a major problem on your hands.
There is some overlap between mild autistic like conditions and narcissism. I'm fairly asocial. I spend a lot of time with myself. I can be somewhat self centred in certain ways. I don't really know many people or anyone well. I only have myself to really talk about and I'm not all that interested in people.
Where the condition can be differentiated from things such as narcissism, psychopathy and so on can be subtle. These things are not easy to detect. I know someone who is somewhat sociopathic who according to the normal psychological tests scores close to 100% for empathy. I score close to 0%. In practice this person does a lot of things that inflict hardship upon others that I just don't and wouldn't do.
One tell for the difference is in considering directionality, frequency and boundaries. This particular person I refer to is one I notice a lot. I really need to be able to do things my own way to a large degree. This person is overly imposing and insists that other people do things the way they want. This is too the point where it's just not reasonable. This includes things like insisting on taking over how I make my own coffee. They are not entitled to this so they are emotionally and socially manipulative in their interferences. This is not so much of an autistic thing but a more of a narcissistic one.
I should note that I have seen some pretty bad cases of Asperger's Syndrome that isn't really that. As far as I can see neither you nor I seem to be as extreme as what I refer to. The problem in that is that you have people who must do things their own way to the extreme in a group setting where the work is combined and then it really does become a problem for others. I struggle to work well in groups but do not bring them down in this way. These people will have to do something in a certain way that will absolutely bring down the team. In such cases it doesn't matter whether they can't help it or not. It's not different, the suffering it causes others is the same either way and people should not be forced to be subjected to that excessively.
I watched a licensed therapist on RUclips that mentioned how there should be a "Neurodiversity Umbrella" rather than directly labeling ADHD, ASD, OCD, NPD etc. That was you can moreso work with an individual's challenging traits when it comes to finding an equilibrium in society rather than trying to force a "fix". Honestly it's more a spectrum of Conformity to Non Conforming than something being inherently "wrong" about a person. By making groups were you "other" people, it might result in more harm than good, but it's tricky because in today's society, labels are also how we seek out individuals who are "safe" to us. I'd still be okay with a NT or ND company either way, but its hard for others to understand sensitivity and outbursts and selth soothing. I agree with you.
Oh ... dear 😭 I cried a lot watching this. You've had very similar experiences to me. I'm transgender and have been gender dysphoric (GD) from birth. Almost my early childhood friends were girls. 100% I was a girl (but needed ... erm ... a painful operation - what I said to my best friend at 7yo!). I had longish hair (1970's UK). In the same year, I put on her school dress, she put my hair in bunches (staying over at her house) and I intended to stand in front of my parents to say "Mummy, Daddy, I'm a girl. No, really, I am!" but I burst into tears and put my own clothes back on. I just buried what I was, was almost bullied to suicide (at secondary school) and coped as well as I could. I was very good at IT, very geeky and always suspected I was autistic (after I found out what it was in my late teens). After University, I married a covert/vindictive narcissist who love-bombed me until I worshipped the ground she walked on. I hated my body but did my duty so she could have children. I never told her that I was GD of course as from the start I had to walk on eggshells around her. When she had what she wanted, the psychological domestic violence/narcissistic abuse started. "You're so stupid. You're an idiot. You're fat. You're useless. Nobody would ever want you as a friend." etc (some far worse) on and on. Not on all days - so days she would be nice and reel me in with her hooks. On other days I would come home from work, make my excuses and curl up in a ball crying in a spare bedroom (silently so she wouldn't hear me). I developed depressive psychosis (and thought I was schizophrenic but hid that too). I wasn't allowed to be ill - that was reserved for her. Eventually I fought back a little and she treated me worse. After she had got the lifestyle, house, money and location she wanted from me, she destroyed me by getting me daughter (whom she manipulated) to accuse me. You know what I mean. No evidence, witnesses or proof - just accusations and it's all you need in the UK. I am now banned from contacting my (grown up children) for life (and my son was nothing to do with these unfair machinations). There is no way of proving I am innocent as there is no evidence either way (and there never was - it didn't happen)! I am a very gentle caring person (woman). I have never hurt anybody (and I'm a Buddhist). I've been subjected to DECADES of horrific abuse myself (with witnesses). Holy cow, I'm gender dysphoric - I've never been interested to intimate contact for myself! At this point I had lost everything and had nothing more to lose so I transitioned - something I should have done as a child/teen but it wasn't possible in the 70's/80's (maybe I could have done something at university but I was too frightened that I'd lose all my friends especially those in the Christian church). I was also tested for autism (I was in deep depression/mental illness due to everything that had happened). I was diagnosed as "highly functioning/masking autistic" (HFA) - which I had realized as I miss important social cues. Bottom line - if you realize you are in a relationship with a narcissist - run away as fast as you can. Break all contact. They will destroy you as they destroyed me.
I used to think my mom was just psychopathic, until we realized she was autistic at 79😢
I'm a sigma empath and have experienced full-blown narcissists. I would say I can pick up quite easily the intention of a narc to dominate, control, manipulate, invalidate others, plus most of their other traits. It is not 'similar to' or 'seems like'. They have no actual, genuine emotions, empathy, caring, for others (but can ACT like it), they have NO responsibility for their actions; twist everything around so THEY are the 'victim', they will use 'flying monkeys' against you, many other traits.
Interesting Insight!
Thanks so incredibly much 🙏💕
I don't consider myself too sensitive about stuff like this, but if the narcissist would repeatedly say this "one-up-me" type of stuff like "Oh your project is done? Well done!... Well, I had a project similar to yours, but it was 10 times more complex, but I managed to finish it of course" bla-bla-bla,
then I would probably snap after some point and tell the narcissist something like "Oh, so your project was 10 times more difficult? It might be because your 10 times more difficult of a person than me.".
Hell might brake out then, but at that point I already snapped, so what's it matter to me then.
I can't believe it... this is the first time I made this typo:
your = you're
You have explained this very well.
As a "neurotypical" person, I frankly never saw any similarity between autism and narcissism. They are completely different.
Agree. Unfortunately, we are often accused of being narcissists by the poorly informed. It's a bit of a slur within our community.
If you've been under their power (as a parent or partner) it's much more likely to feel like narcissism than if you're friends. When there's lots of space and independence, it's easy to understand the intentions without getting hurt by the actions.
You’re very smart and intelligent. Thank you 🙏
Autistic people description sounds like they are good and genuine people. Who decides that autism is not normal? Sounds like it's how all people should be in the social communications - open and sincere.
it seems funny how your explanations why the autistic style of thinking and communicating "just looks like" narcistic behaviour from the outside, while in reality it is of course, completly different. Got a lightbulb going on for you: This (!) is 100% what narcistists do when you confront them with their narcisistic behaviour. They will tell you, that they didn't mean it that way and that your perception of the situation is totally wrong and they are as innocent as can be, but maybe a little blunt and straightforward because they are just special people. but of course it wasn't ill intended, they were just ... whatever. This is narcistic defensive behaviour by the books: instead of taking responsibility you are defending your hurtful, disrespectful behaviour with your grandiosity/autism/specialness - all the same.
Good video. Narcissism doesn't necessarily mean NPD, but it's a pattern of behavior and a personality style (according to Dr. Ramani Durvasula, I'm not just pulling this outta my butt). I grew up with a narcissistic parent as well, who left plenty of those traits in me too, but I think it's our duty to learn about ourselves and be aware of those toxic traits in order to control them and become better people. I can easily excuse my behavior and blame it all on childhood trauma, but using my condition as a crutch is a pretty crappy thing to do imo. Some autistic people are clearly also Narcissistic, Elon Musk is probably the best example of what happens when you're both and surround yourself with enablers and yes men... Please don't be like that muskrat folks, educate yourself and keep striving to be better people.
I’m convinced that there are some more autistic people who claimed to be autistic, but they really are just narcissists, but they love to use this whole autistic thing
I doubt a true NPD who wasn't autistic would claim autism. It's too stigmatized. There are plenty of other things they could identify with instead that both garner admiration and sympathy. For example, I know one NPD who pretends to be very charitable and won't shut up about how empathetic and kind they are, and how no one appreciates them. They are one of the most toxic people I've ever met.
@@ProudlyAutistic I wonder if perhaps covert narcissists in the current culture of destigmatizing mental health would be willing to claim autism because it garners sympathy and can be viewed as being a victim.
I thought it was wrong to stigmatize any condition or diagnosis and that we should approach them all with support and compassion?
What a telling response
It's interesting to read these comments about how autistics seem narcissistic. Before I was diagnosed at 42 with ASD, I was starting to feel like I was surrounded by narcissists and psychopaths. Turns out I was just surrounded by neurotypicals. I've been able to learn and understand our differences better now and can see theyre not trying to be as cruel as they come across. It goes both ways, I guess.
Very good observation. Yes, it can seem like everything, including us, must revolve around them.
Great topic. Thank you.
This describes me so much. Frustrating. In spitte of intention, the result is the same. What do we do?
There's this expert professor who has coined the term "doormat narcissist", that sounds a bit like an autistic person misunderstood.
I have the strong suspicion that many NTs categorize anyone as narcissists who doesn't acknowledge their "natural authority". That's quite often autistic people who struggle understanding social order.
Especially teachers seem to be prone to come to such conclusions. Many treat children like arch enemies for asking them something they didn't know the answer to.
Nice to hear someone say that it IS on us to soften our delivery, 1ce we are aware that we are upsetting people! I hear too much of the "this is who I am, you deal with it" rhetoric, mostly from autistic guys! Maybe it's a male thing? I mean so many women like us weren't diagnosed in childhood because "little girls need to look nice, act nice & make nice"! We knew we wouldn't get away with being little bulldozers like the boys!
I have a question for you & I hope it doesn't offend: Why are you proud? I'm not saying you shouldn't be! I just find very little in my own world to be proud of. I struggle with feeling disgusted in myseof most of the time!
Wow. I actually just had a long conversation with a friend last week who apparently thought that I love gossiping. I said I am just bad at lying and say whats on my mind, and often the people close to me are on my mind, and I don't see the harm in sharing minor details about some random person that my friend will never meet. It ended up being a long conversation though with a lot of confusion on both sides. Never thought it might be an autism thing.
Yeah...lack of filter isn't specific to autism, but it definitely is common in autism. It sounds like you handled that situation well in regards to explaining your perspective. Hopefully you were able to work things out.
Interesting video. I guess it would be important to separate out the different traits of NPD that could also be attributable to autism (aloofness, avoidance, dismissiveness etc). If after doing that you still have someone who is manipulative and a pathological liar, then you're most likely looking at NPD rather than autism.
All you need to know: can the person apologize and recognize their mistakes? Or do they double down?
That's a big part of it yes. Definitely a red flag. However, there are plenty of immature people that can't take accountability that aren't technically narcissists. Not being able to admit they are wrong when presented with factual information (names, years, things that aren't open to interpretation) is a massive tell. They love having you question reality.
@david do you mean to recognize NPD? If so this is way too simplified a method. Because you'll still encounter the narc that fakes an apology in order to get into your good books. They're more shrewd than that.
I have seen autistic people who just gave up trying to please others because they always failed anyway and perceived any attempt to make them change behavior as just another attempt to make them feel bad about themselves.
I definitely have been there myself at times before I knew about Autism.
It's really difficult when you are constantly being told to be a bad person no matter what you do or how hard you try.
5:33 You have had your amazing cactuses for a long time you take really awesome care of them!!! :D*
Really sorry about your experiences.
Thank you, it's ok. I'm in a much better place now and hoping I can use my experience to destigmatize often misunderstood autistic behaviors.
Thank you 🥺
The Difference is perception.
Frankly after dealing with MASSIVE invalidation for decades I don’t give a hamsters butt at this point if it’s intentional or not. Autism people shouldn’t use the diagnosis to be cruel and abusive. Fix your crap, YOU made a decision to be married. YOU own being an actual safe healthy adult instead of verbally abusing people.
Frankly, I do.
I sincerely wish you the very best in your journey. I really do. Yet I plainly declare your lack of mercy and your shifting the blame to be absolutely appalling.
You have the right to heal and recover. You do NOT have the right to lash out at an entire group of people, some of whom are trying very hard to adapt to a largely allistic world, and some who were indeed also abused by cluster B folks, including parents. See ya.
I agree with you that people who have autism aren't narcissist as the root cause of NPD is INSECURTY. I've realized people who have autism are really just trying to get by. But autistic people do tend be very self absorbed and self centered which just means they are mainly selfish. Being selfish is not narcissism everyone is capable of being selfish. People need to realize that being a bad person doesn't make you a narcissist. Also one thing you mention about people that have NPD is that they can get treatment but it only occurs when the narcissist has a substance abuse disorder or addiction because people with substance abuse disorder have a high likelihood of dying from overdose. Usually they tend to reflect with their own actions or decision makings, realizing that they've been the one's inflicting themselves making them want to change. You can't change a narcissist only they can change themselves.
So are you saying that autistic people never have NPD? I.e. is it impossible for a person to have both?
I'm not a mental health professional so this is just my personal opinion. From my experience it's more likely a collection of narcissistic traits and poor coping skills that can be addressed through therapy and not true NPD. Our autistic traits can interfere with the ability to pull off many (particularly overt) narcissistic behaviors.
However there are many people who have reached out to me saying they've seen covert narcissism in autism firsthand. We're not immune from the risk factors, so it's plausible.
Anyone who has questions should seek out a mental health professional who specializes in BOTH autism and narcissism as they're best equipped to differentiate.
I understand that you say things at the wrong time but it’s not intentional. However, we’re all still responsible for our own words and actions. The harm and pain we cause others is still very real no matter your intentions. I’d love it if you’d add that.
I alluded to that at the end that we can still hurt people and we need to do what we can to make amends (provided the other person isn't dismissive of our real challenges).
One of the real challenges between nt-autistic communication is that NTs assume autistic people have the capacity/self control to think like they do in a pinch. We don't. We have a different neurotype. So while we can understand theoretically and maybe we can bend our mind occasionally (masking) to suit others needs, it shouldn't be assumed we can "just" do what's expected. Communication is very difficult. It's not intuitive for us in the NT sense and we're constantly searching for what to say in the moment. We're going to mess up even on a good day. Add stress and other factors and we might blurt out things we really don't want to say. NTs need to be sympathetic of this (again, assuming there's recognition by the autistic person, but it can take us hours/days to process what actually happened).
It's also the responsibility of others to tell when we hurt them and why. I think we can expect from autistic people to stop this behavior once explained so that they can understand. Just expecting everyone just has to know isn't going to work even when it's considered "normal".
I’m autistic also. I experience them all
5:38 They do this because living by decree makes things a whole lot easier for them. They do this to shut you up, to dispense with you. This is because you won't shut up about your reality, which they do not care about. You exist for them.
So, because the intent is different even though the outcome could be the same, say gossip that undermines a colleague we need to condemn the behavior of a narcist but accept the behavior of someone who claims to be autistic?
It sounds like you think NTs always behave perfectly and only narcissists and autistic people harm others. The difference is, a narcissist won't correct the behavior when it's pointed out because he has an agenda. An autistic person will likely change the behavior when someone explains how the behavior is harmful and he/she has the capacity to change (conversations are often difficult enough without additional rules to follow).
When NTs gossip they often just don't care about harming others because gossiping is accepted social behavior anyone participates in. Only when "weird" people do it, it's bad behavior that needs to be punished. It's like men flirting with women is perfectly fine if they are attractive but harassment otherwise.
Thank you so much for this explanation, it helps a lot. Much Love. 🙏🏽🤍
I think one can have traits of both, especially covert style
Agree. I do sometimes wonder how much of it is simply a lot of traits rather than actual NPD. In my case I was highly susceptible to manipulation and mimicked what I knew. As soon as I got out of that bubble, I realized it was wrong. True NPDs aren't capable of self-reflection and change. I can see how many may be bound to their abusive parents or lack healthy social networks and therefore never have the opportunity to move beyond it.
Spot on. The same
i remember i was suspecting the CEO of the company i am working with is narcissist, and will be transforming the organization using iron fist, ruthlessly. Later on i have connected the dots after reading new research on correlation between if someone have kids in the spectrum - the deep one, there is a high chance that parents are in the spectrum too. And this guy was openly talking about this fact. After a year, nothing ruthless has happened, the dude just was mostly scared of simple things that for me it was weird to be afraid of, like too much communication :D
I Love Proudly Artistic She’s Beautiful in The Video Been a Long Time Since I Watched Proudly Artistic I glad She’s Back in October lol ❤️❤️❤️
Thankyou hun
I don't really understand the difference between gossip and just talking about your friends lives. When i talk about my friends its because I care about them. I don't share secrets either, but someone does explicitly need to tell me not to share it with other people. Like if a friend was going through a divorce and i brought it up to another friend, im probably expressing either my saddness or happiness towards the situation, or potentially how i can help the friend feel better. I don't make up stuff about people, nor am i ever talking about something bad someone did unless it directly effected me. Like say if someone yelled at me and i said im upset because they yelled at me, for example.
Gaslighting is not a characteristic of Narcissism. Its a psychopath behavior.
Um, it's absolutely a behavior seen in narcissism. One of their favorites. That and triangulation.
@@ProudlyAutistic Lies and manipulation are not as severe as Gaslighting in its broader form.