My Issue With "Love is Love" | AroAce Thoughts
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 5 июл 2024
- Want to get yourself some yummy chai? Check out Daniel's Chai Bar:
link: danielschaibar.com/spacey_aces
discount code (20% off!): SPACEY_ACES
Enjoy!
Also, if you want to support us without buying a product, you can donate to our KoFi (ko-fi.com/spaceyaces) and we recieve 100% of those donations.
This video is coming to you for the sake of discussion and reflection, because the thoughts I have had surrounding the phrase "love is love" have maintained themselves throughout my journey of discovering my queerness. Give it a watch, and let me know if you've thought similar!
_________________________________________
Welcome, lovely humans and aliens! We are a trio consisting of an asexual, a greysexual, and a demisexual. On our channel we talk about queer things in addition to our other nerdy interests.
Buy us a coffee: ko-fi.com/spaceyaces
Follow us on Instagram: / spacey_aces
My name is Elle (they/he/she) and I'm an enby and aro-space ace doing my queer thing here in the internet universe. Join me and let's be gay nerds. I'd really like that. Love you!!
0:00 intro + chai!
2:40 impact on aspec community
4:34 impact on trans community
6:06 some more thoughts...
9:50 alternatives for "love is love"
Counter argument, the whole community is about love. Self-love. I would say this is the most important part about any LGBT experience. The love you need to come out, face the hate, accept your own differences, to embrace an unconventional relationship, to stand up for yourself, to be yourself, to challenge what other people think you should be. You don't do these things by hating yourself, you don't do these things for other people, you do these things through self-love and it's beautiful, it's beautiful to be yourself.
Speaking of allies, I am going to share some of my favorite ally stories that have happened to either me or my friends.
1. So I have this one friend who I went to school with last year, and looking at her, she's a very typical blonde cis straight girl. But she's literally so kind, and like I was showing her pins on my backpack, and she noticed one of them was a trans pin, and was like "Oh is that a trans pin? What would you rather I refer to you as?" and like she always makes sure to ask for pronouns when she meets someone because she understands the importance of referring to someone correctly, and she's so cool.
2. I have this other friend who is also another straight girl, and she has never really had the chance to learn about various queer identities, so whenever she has questions she'll ask me, but she always makes sure that it's clear that if I don't feel like answering, She can look it up herself, no hard feelings. She also noticed that my Instagram name/handle had changed to my preferred name, and she was like "Okay cool! I'll change your name on snap to match that". I'm not ready to come out to everyone I have on snap, so I really appreciated the fact that she asked and made the change.
These are my favorite moments with allies that I have, and if y'all have any, I would love to hear them :)
💕💕💕
i actually see “love is love” as no matter the way you love, your love is still love. like aro/ace people may not love romantically or sexually but they still love platonically and that is a very important form of love as well. polyamorous people might love more than one person at a time but their love is just as great as non-poly people’s.
but i do agree on the trans umbrella one, you could interpret that as to love your gender identity but that makes no sense at all and doesn’t describe the point of gender identity so that’s actually pretty stupid. as someone who is agender i never felt left out of the community because of the phrase love is love tho.
i also agree that the phrase should be improved but something like “diversity is beautiful” would include so many people other than queers, or at least for me it’s a giant term that describes “other than the norm” if that makes sense. maybe something like “queerness is beautiful” would fit better :)
Thank you for sharing this! As someone who is queer, love is love sometimes does feel a little incinscere because it isn't a catchall! Especially since it excludes so many diverse identities that are part of the LGBTQ+ community.
Never really thought about this before but it's super interesting how a lot of people say this but it really doesn't include everyone. Also that's a very cool mug! 🍄
I always thought that "love is love" also include platonic, queerplatonic love... Idk... Like... "Love is love, all kinds of love are valid". And, you know, like "types of love from ancient Greece" (including family love if we aren't touching "queer" theme)
Aren't people mean it... :( My aroace autistic brain is super confused, damn
For myself this phrase in my own meaning is super validating my love for friends, which not so many allos will understand. And I am really happy about it. Otherwise I feel like I am not "normal" just because I want to be in my friends life, while not looking for romantic relationships. Because I did so for all my life. Just because I thought that if I want to be loved in my way, I need to "act normal" and look out for "romantic" partner. Which didn't work and I just COULDN'T "catch" that feeling every one is talking about. If what I want is not love, then what else? I think It IS love. Just not the one like it experience "others"
That could very well be what people mean when they use it! I just don't think it's always the case. If I had to guess, most people who say it probably don't know very much about different types of attraction. But I could be way off, too. I'm glad it works and is validating for you.
I certainly see and agree that most the time people use 'love is love' is only relating to romantic/sexual love, but a part of me also want to keep the phrase around, because it can mean so much more and used in so many more ways that is positive. Like, I can say love is love when talking about how my family would be supportive of me and my identity, because their love for me should not change whether I am the way I am? Love is love in that love is love without conditions attached to it, just love.
And also, in my opinion that the problem that came with the phrase love is love not accommodating for trans people so much is partly because of the conception of the LGBT community, in that gay, lesbian, bisexual and people of minority sexuality is lumped in with transgender people when the experience is quite different, and that a person can both be of minority sexuality and transgender. It's like society just want to group people who are 'not normal' together and be done with it without understanding any further, and since the LGB part of the community is more widely visible and accepted than the T part of the community, it's no wonder that 'love is love' tend to only address the LGB part of the community, but gets treated as addressing the whole community
This! 🙌💗 Love is love means that: Love, in all forms, is still valid!!! Even if I don’t feel romantic/sexual love, I feel love in other forms too! Love means more than just 2 types. I personally love the phrase "Love is love" because it’s inclusive to all love! ☺️ While it certainly doesn’t include a gender issue, we can just use the other phrase "Be Who You Are!" another phrase I really like! 😊
I do think love is love can be a good thing to say in support of people of non-straight sexualities and romantic orientations, as long as it's not used in a way thats trying to encapsulate the whole queer community. I think love is love can and should evolve to mean that all love, while not all the same, is all equally deserving of the title of love. This includes romantic love for the same gender, platonic love, queerplatonic love, self love, every type of love. There are still people out there who think that queer love isn't love and it's good to counter that. In a way trans people are still included because you need a lot of self love to accept yourself as trans, but I think it should still not be the statement for the whole queer community because there are people who don't use the word love to describe their experiences, and people who are still struggling to love themselves still deserve to be included.
I don’t mind love is love actually. It’s a term for people who can feel it, so it doesn’t really have to be validating for me. But you put up some pretty good points.
I agree with you on this, the phrase has always bothered me too as a trans aroace person. Queerness is not just about attraction but it is more expansive than that, as you've said.
I love this take! Cis het people don’t need to find us relatable to actively support us! I love the nuance you brought to the conversation! Excellent work! 💝
Thank you!
You've provided some good food for thought here. Thank you!
Even before realizing that I'm part of the queer community, because I'm a religious gal, I tended to emphasize that Gd created everyone/Gd loves diversity. And this is very timely, as some of us are celebrating Purim this coming week. This isn't the most common take on this holiday, but for me, the story illustrates the importance that diversity plays in the survival of a community. (It started with a modest queen who defied the king when he asked her to show off for his buddies. It just gets weirder from there...)
Blessed day/night to you!
🙏❤🏳🌈🏳⚧
being a loveless aroace who has never felt love towards anyone (including family, friends, pets, etc.), the phrase love is love doesn’t feel very inclusive as it really does center those who are in gay relationships. i feel like with the way the term is used in the lgbtqia+ community, it heavily excludes aspec and trans people (specifically straight trans people) and i feel (with the way the community uses it now) is more like trying to tell cishet people “hey i’m like u the way i feel love is just like how u do” which in turn reminds me of how some ace people will tell allo people “oh i’m not a monster, i still feel (romantic) love like how u guys do”. idk i’ve never felt love so i feel like using the catch all phrase love is love doesn’t include me and in the end isn’t the most inclusive phrase/term for arospec, aspec, and trans people.
Very spot on!
Well, I love you with all my heart.....I have never thought to label the emotion. Your content has me reflecting on how vast love is and the many forms it takes in a person's life. I am blessed and grateful you have landed in my life
Just clicked on the video and I gotta say, your hair always looks really pretty…! I’ll make a comment later for my thoughts, when I’ve watched it all.
I so agree with you! I once got a pride sticker that said "Love is love" on it and that kind of irked me so I covered up the words with another pride sticker. I really feel like the saying perpetuates the idea that if you don't feel love like us, you don't belong.
I don't mind the sentence "love is love", because while my way to love may differ from the one of allosexual, alloromantic people I don't love my loved ones any less. So from my point of view I think you could interprete this message not only like romantic love in a same-sex relationship equals romantic live in a opposite-sex relationship" but all forms of love are love and all ways to live love can be equally strong and immportant.
I'm not sure if I agree with everything you said, but it definitely made me think. I have observed that even queer people tend to focus on the "our love is the same as yours", to appear more likeable to allies, emphasizing too much on the love part, which makes trans, aspec and other people feel less seen. At least that's how I perceive it.
How about loving kindness(metta) love? It focuses on loving everyone regardless of labels and appearances. It extends to all "sentient beings". Or how about secular humanism and focusing on the humanity(human-ness?) of a person?
I think the general idea of LGBTQIA+(or GSRM or whatever other term) is that being different is okay (as long as there is consent and health and stuff). There are like 8 billion humans and obviously there is gonna be some diversity of orientation, desire, mental processing, perception, love and other conscious experiences. One rigid system(or way of living) can't work for everyone at all! "Queerness" kind of overlaps with the neurodivergent movement in that sense.
But yeah coming up with a slogan to describe a very diverse community isn't easy and to me it kind of misses the point. Life is too big and trying to fit it in a word or two or three isn't gonna do it justice. And instead of fitting into a social system, you are now trying to fit into a linguistic system("love is love").
Also I am trans(binary) and I don't feel offended by "love is love" personally but yeah I can see how it might feel weird to other trans folks.
I personally like the idea of secular humanism and "loving" humanity(or consciousness in general to be inclusive of animals, aliens and possibly artificial general intelligence).
Interesting video nonetheless. I missed the great octopus though.
The octopus was just barely out of frame, haha. Thanks for the comment! 💙
Interesting point of view! I’ve never really thought about it like this but I did get the feeling that the Phrase Love is Love doesn’t apply to me/isn’t really relevant to my gender identity and romantic and sexual orientation.
I think all the points you made are true and I agree with most of them, some I don’t understand tho but that’s ok. The term “love is love” is always going to be a little confusing for me anyways because like yeah love is love and a pancake is a pancake like what do u mean? But especially towards the ending of the video I agree with and the examples of what you could say instead are good and more exclusive
I posted that I was Aro/Ace and somebody said "love is love" and I was a bit taken aback. Um, is she assuming I am a lesbian? I just told her I don't want to be with anyone.
Omg hi (luv ur hair) I hate how people say “lOvE iS lOvE” bc is sounds like they are homophobic but say they aren’t so they won’t get cancelled
Hello! Thanks so much! I agree that that can sometimes be the case...
@@SpaceyAces yea not all the time, but thats just the vibe, ya know 😅
I’ve never liked the Love Is Love phrase, esspecially after MAPs started using it as a way to try and include themselves into the community 😒
How about "love and let love"? By love, I mean who you want to be in a relationship with.
Be attracted to who you want regardless of race, religion, orientation, or otherwise, but allow others to do the same. If I'm wrong then I'll stay wrong.
(This is) My opinion only and I make it with respect to everyone. Ok, I'm old - as indicative of my age. I have had many affairs, and many relationships, with many different 'women,' in a myriad of different environments, with women of different nationalities and backgrounds. (Did I say this correctly? I hope you understood my thought.) In reflection, back in the (19) 50's love may have been (well) real/love. In the (19) '60s and 70's - things began to change. Young people may have deen in (emotional) love, but as one overcame that emotional rush, MONEY (and financial issues) began to surface. WE are not our parents: our parents married (some of them married) for societal legitimacy and acceptance: they stayed in relationships (which often were extremely sour) for the sake of appearance. Today, there is no requirement to be married. (Married by some church official) The IRS and community accepts common law or if you wish, society accepts it when 2 people just move in together. A church marriage is NOT required for societal legitimacy. Now, moving forward - I do believe that emotional love does exist when 2 people are younger: let's say this may be true for teens and those who are in their early 20s. After this point in life, it becomes extremely clear that love depends upon (a myriad of) things: Some/many/most/all people want a home. (You define what a 'home' is.) Homes are extremely expensive. Many, due to geographical issues, must have a vehicle (assuming that public transit may not be available), vehicles are expensive, then there is licensing costs, insurance costs, maintenance cost, and violation costs (the cops are always ready to gift you wish unwanted and unwarranted summons - called 'tickets.'), and the costs go on and on. Whether you have a home or apartment, then there are costs associated with furnishings, home insurance - and so on. My point: love is no longer 'love for love,' it becomes 30 minutes for love (give me some latitude here please) and 23.5 hours of reality - facing the expenses of life. I'm not going to establish the somewhat normal costs we all face today, but there are many, concluded when the IRS wants its due. I know, I see many relationships - they all die and or are stressed (and become dysfunctional) due to financial issues. It's no longer love is emotional love, love may be emotionally stable ONLY IF THERE ARE SUFFICIENT FUNDS, sufficient cash, and sufficient disposable income, to keep everyone happy. I respect those who would challenge my thoughts and state that I am wrong - ok, well ... There must be some form of exchange: generally, we can't head out into the forest to find some wild lettuce or a few potatoes - that doesn't work. The exchange today, is money, cash - which makes life easier, but without sufficient cash, life today can be harsh. There is NO love today, not love for love or love is love - MONEY, disposable income, sufficient income generated by BOTH partners, is necessary and mandatory for (love if you wish to express it this way) most relationships. Many may deny the phenomenon called 'keeping up with the Jones,' but it's real. Not always, but often people want what their friends have: children want what their friends have - it's not (always) what we need, it's the appearance that we are equal to others. Love is love - that's for children and young people who live under the 'sheltered roof' of mom and dad. At some point, the harsh, very harsh reality of life hits us all, square in the face - get out there - get an education that will result in a career. EVERYTHING is expensive, and there are no more stay-at-home parents - everyone works. Love, is only as strong as the financial (MONEY) foundation which exists. (And) While I could be wrong, the expenses, the taxes, and the costs of everything we see and face today, will only increase, grow, expand - and probably grow exponentially. Government support systems, will decline or cease: it will become a 100% total user-pay society. If you want something, then you had better have the finances to pay for it. Is this right or just? I don't know the answer: I do know that with a good attitude, with a strong work ethic, with an education based on something that society demands, if you save more than you spend, if you plan for your future - you can make a life for yourself. I suggest that in the future, the rich or if you wish, the upper class will continue: there will be no middle class - it's either you are rich and affluent, connected - or you are in the have-little subsistence level class. Homeownership will only be a dream for the wealthy: everyone will rent a cube (an apartment) owned by the government. It will become 'big brother,' and society will be watched, regulated, and controlled. The underground economy will flourish, but if you are caught - there will be severe consequences. Love is LOVE - nonsense: we don't live in a fantasy world: life is damn harsh and it's going to become more difficult. Let the young, the dreamers enjoy Love is LOVE, while the rest of us who are consumed with finding our next meal, struggle with the reality of 'real' life. BTW: when I speak of Love, I don't care nor do I speak about the type of relationship, those involved, the sexual orientation or gender, or the race or colors of those involved - I speak of LOVE - as an emotional connection, a bond between 2 people. (or perhaps between more than 2 people) Everyone, as they grow older will find that life has passed extremely fast: we can't turn the hands of time back (not yet in any case) so we live with our mistakes. Enjoy life: don't overanalyze it - find someone to share life with if this is your desire, but keep it real. Life is expensive. Many, want instant gratification - I mean, some want what their parents have when they are 20. Love, sex, and relationships (call it what you will) are great, but when the rush of the moment fades, the reality and harshness of life will return with a vengeance. Love is love - this is childish: this (thought) is for dreamers and philosophers: sustainable Love is based on mutual respect, caring for each other, keeping expectations realistic, living within your means, maintaining a focus on MONEY, and a lot of damn hard work. There are no free rides any longer. :0))
"love is love" makes me think of the 1970's single issue white gay activists who booed Syvia Rivera for calling them "a white middle-class white club". These activists focused on gay liberation, which of course is important, but they utterly ignored and rejected everyone else in the LGBT community. Same-sex marriage in the 2010's was like that: treated like the end-all, be-all of LGBT liberation, but that does nothing for all the trans people who were getting their rights taken away. Maybe a simple slogan isn't enough when it comes to our fight for liberation.
The movie 'Bros' ends on a song called 'love is not love'. The song, and arguably the whole movie, wants to emphasize that qu33r people are in fact different, and there's nothing wrong with that. We don't want or need to assimilate into heteronormativity or homonormativity. 'Love is love' was just a way to trick the straights into giving us equal rights.
Is it a good movie? Eh. It's not terrible. It's pretty cringe at times though. I hate the term 'cringe' but I'm sorry to say that it really does apply here. It seems to be intentional on the part of the director.
"love is love" has a kind of pathetic defensiveness to it...
I am a Cupiosexual which falls under the Asexual Umbrella/Spectrum. I am also a Cis Lesbian. All humans are capable of Love. Are you implying otherwise? If a human claims they are not capable of Love then that person is a psycho or a monster whether they are a member of The LGBTQIA Community or not.
I think that when people say "love is love", they are refering to romantic/sexual attraction. Of course anyone can feel love, it's just that it's not necessarily romantic/sexual, it can be platonic, emotional, etc.
It isn't great to shame people who don't experience empathy or 'love' easily. People who have ASPD(Antisocial Personality Disorder) or any other disorder or experience that limits their empathy are people just as much as everyone else. Using 'psycho' just makes the stigma even worse.
Let's not call ANYONE a psycho or a monster, that language is much more dehumanizing than saying some people can't experience love. Some people on the aro/ace/aroace spectrums use the label of being "loveless" so yes, some people do not experience "love" or love in the same way as other people. This does not make them "psycho's" or monsters. There are also people, both in and out of aroace spectrums, that can't relate to feeling love such as some people with ASPD, autistic people, and more. Love is not inherently what makes us human and it isn't a universal feeling.
Watering down being human to specific feelings and emotions only furthers stigma around mental illness, queer identities, cultural differences, and neurological differences.
@@twylenb ASPD is a disorder. An illness. A sickness. A sickness that I overcame instead of embracing it. If I embraced it then most likely I would be a serial killer now. I also conquered OCD and Addiction. The last time I used was 18 years ago.
I hate how people forget that "Loveless aro/ace/aroace" ppl exist. I am one of them.