16:38 Always remember: for the individual, their future has not yet happened. This Jonas hasn't been "back home", met his mother, told her about time travel, lost his time machine to her... that was "Birdman" Jonas. And young Jonas will have to wait another 30+ years until he reaches that point. 21:10 In the same way: Peter has never met this version of Claudia. The Claudia he met was the old version. But of course he knows the history... and could make the connection between the woman who gave him the book and told him about time travel, and the woman who now enters the bunker with Regina, her daugher. 24:35 There was a scene in one of the previous episodes where "Birdman" Jonas stared at an empty space in this very kitchen. Now we know what he remembered seeing there. 25:20 "You can stop me... or try to save her." Spoken to young Jonas... but not meant for him. It was "Birdman" Jonas who would (earlier) later try to do both: save Martha by locking her in the bunker, and then, pistol in hand, wait for Adam to appear in the kitchen. Perhaps he would have succeeded, had he tried to do just one thing. But again... he didn't know at that moment what the future would hold for him... Noah showing up and all that. Always remember: there is no loop. Each person goes through their life just once. 26:52 When you consider it - even without any spoilers for Season 3 - Magnus and Franziska were the luckiest of the whole bunch. All these broken lives, all these lies and intrigues and lost loves... but these two stayed together. 33:50 "Is that something that he did before?" The core problem of this show. Is there a loop? How often did these events happen? Just once, but "bootstrapped"? Or multiple times... cause by the previous iteration. The protagonists always talk about "the cycle" or "the loop"... but we never get to see it. None of it. We never get to see two scenes, showing the same "possible" event, but different. Even when we are told that things _are_ different... like when Bartosz says that "this shouldn't happen this way" when Katharina takes his time machine... or when young Jonas tells Claudia that they "will change small things"... we never know if that is _true_ ... or just something that someone else told them. You're right: this show is soooo good. 37:00 onwards. Remember: just once for every character. "Birdman" Jonas doesn't know what will happen. He hasn't lived through it. What he does is totally new for him... and he still hopes that he can change what will happen. He remembers seeing Martha get shot... but that was in his past, not his future. He can change it... and he hopes that by bringing Martha to the bunker, he will have changed it. He doesn't know that she will escape... because _that_ he has never experienced. Young Jonas was elsewhere... he didn't know Martha even was in the bunker. He only knows he met her at his house. And "Birdman" Jonas tried to be there and prevent Adam from doing anything... he just got guided into a different direction. It's really confusing when you have to work out what each of the protagonists know at which time, and seperate that from what we as the audience knows.
*** Spoiler alert ***. The magnus and francisca comment area obviously spoiler. U think is not because u have watched so many times that it turned trivial and obvius for you and is not a spoiler. Every dark fan commit errors because they are too fans. Like a math professor saying math is easy and obvious etc
Spoiler S3E7: - "The protagonists always talk about "the cycle" or "the loop" ... but we never get to see it. None of it. We never get to see two scenes, showing the same "possible" event, but different." - This isn't actually the case. The montage in S3E7 shows the audience multiple scenes that can be compared to their original scene and one can see multiple changes in them. Claudia never greets her younger self with "Hello Claudia!" in their first meeting and Gretchen also doesn't walk trough the door in the montage although she did in S2E2. Charlotte never says "You are not my father." to Noah in S2E5, yet she does it in the montage. Young Jonas is standing on the opposite side of the forest at the lake in S2E6 compared to S3E7. And the Stranger marks the way to the passageway on Michael's map at 23:49 in the montage, yet he did that at 6:49 in S1E4 (note the digital clock in focus). One even could go as far that the two scenes of Erik getting put into the chair are the same, yet different moments. I think that's enough evidence that things are changing especially when they are stacked on top of each other in a montage that deliberately shows the series again. These can't be just editing issues. Nevertheless people are stuck in this loop because of time (that's why Jonas and Noah can't kill himself/Adam). Everything is determined by the beginning and the end but the way to get from beginning and end can vary as long as they start from the beginning and end at the end. I mean even Eva and Claudia suggest this principle that the journey of all things can vary but their destination is predetermined. In S3E1 Eva says: "If we knew how things end where our journey would take us. Would we still take the same decisions? Or would we choose a different path? Could we even escape our fate or would something deep within us lead us to the same end, like an invisible hand? Does it matter, which path we choose, when we end up standing before ourselves, again and again?" Both of them even mention in S3E2/S3E8: "But we cannot escape our ultimately destiny." And then there is that line from Eva in S3E2, which also gets repeated in S3E8 by Claudia:"Things may not happen in the same way or at the same time, but they always happen." (Could also be interpreted as that the events between the both worlds differ and not between cycles, I just wanted to note that for completion).
Adam already saw and tried every possibilities known. Maybe, there was already a cycle before that Martha is alive, but still could not break the knot. Hence, he need to kill him repeatedly and explore other possibilities.
Adam can NOT just change the past and not shoot Martha. This HAS to happen. If it didn't, Adam wouldn't exist. And he thinks he has to exist to end it all. This rule should be apparent by now. Just like older Jonas didn't get young Jonas out of the bunker in Season 1. It had to happen so that older Jonas could exist to close the passage (even though he didn't know it wouldn't work and CREATE the passage instead). The show is amazing.
That's the one thing that keeps bothering me in this show... would it be possible to change something in that way? We get to see a glimpse in how this "you can't change what must happen, because the future already happened" idea works, when Noah tries to shoot Adam, and the pistol just doesn't work. It gives us this idea of "time doesn't allow that to happen". And there are lots of instances where it is understandable why people acted in the way their future egos knew they would, and not in any other way... but in these cases, they don't know, from direct experience, what their actions will result in. When Stranger Jonas locks Martha in the bunker, he doesn't know that she will escape. He hopes to have changed the events, and he does not - cannot - know that they didn't; that his actions once again _led_ to the same events happening. But what about inaction. Deciding _not_ to do something. Deciding _not_ to draw a gun and shoot the love of your life. No one, nothing can force that on you. Yes, it is understandable why Adam didn't do it. *But he didn't even try!* What would have happened if he had tried? Anything but what we saw. It's totally understanable from the storytelling aspect of the show... but from the pure mechanics of "How does this stuff work?", it is very unsatisfying.
@@GroffiliThat’s my one problem, too. The behavioral determinism, the “SOMEONE will prevent you from changing things” makes sense and is very believable. The “SOMETHING (gun jamming) will prevent it” leans a bit much to the fi part of sci-fi. On the other hand, maybe it makes sense if you’re not looking at it as the Grandfather Paradox, and instead “that’s what happened, so that’s what happens”.
@@raezor82 You guys get caught up too much in the "small picture". the gun jams happens no matter how many times cuz this is the timeline that everything that will happen, happens you know. The gun not jamming in any of those instance destroy this "timeline" and therefore doesn't "happen", we are watching the "timeline" that everything went "right" for lack of better word. Thinking what ifs is nonsensical, everything that happened, happens cuz otherwise the end wouldn't happen it. You walked your life and if you thought maybe i could do this that time, that time it wouldn't be "you" cuz you had to first make you first decision to think about maybes.I know its crazy talk but if you go by this philosophy it kinda makes sense.
This show is so good right?!? We told you. I love so much the end of season 2, when you're figuring so many things out and they come with the end and blow up your mind with, "the question is not when but which world.". IMO season 3 is even better. I don't know how they managed to to that, but they did it. This show is just phenomenal.
Different Jonas think they can change time in different ways from their perspective, but we assume that they cant from our perspective(who is right only time will tell). Its like a fish that think that the pond is the whole world, except it isn't but for the fish perspective he's not wrong.
So funny to see your 😮 with Elizabeth, and the end of final episode😂. Told you, you could not know what was coming. And the final season gets even harder to understand, as you will already see next week. This 3rd season will answer your mindfuck questions. See ya then Carmen ✌
there are no dumb or stupid people when watching this show... it is all confusing and all explained in time... I watched with english dubbing and had no problem with it... all the voice actors do really good and if you do not look too close at their mouths it is fine.. sometimes hearing the conversation helps it make sense.. you will love it more every time you rewatch
I had to draw a family tree to make it less confusing, and I came to the same conclusions. Still confusing. And they're all descended from Noah's and Agnes' parents, who are themselves descended from the same person!
they truly love each other and when first attracted did not know they are related... once they are in love it is hard to deny what your heart wants and yes basically the entire town is related... love your reactions ... enjoy the rest
Развлечения
Sorry for the tiny hiatus (unplanned sickness with family and then me!) but you'll get a double drop next week of the first two episodes of S3! xxx
Watching your brain melt when you realize Elizabeth is Charlotte's mother? Priceless...😂
Noah getting shot and at the same time leaving on his journey is so cool and highly underappreciated.
My body is a cage... A perfect haunting tune for the Appocalypse! Thanks for including the audio!
It's truly remarkable when you rewatch episodes, just how much foreshadowing there is throughout the series.
YES GIRL, that Charlotte reveal blew my mind the first time I saw it.
16:38 Always remember: for the individual, their future has not yet happened. This Jonas hasn't been "back home", met his mother, told her about time travel, lost his time machine to her... that was "Birdman" Jonas. And young Jonas will have to wait another 30+ years until he reaches that point.
21:10 In the same way: Peter has never met this version of Claudia. The Claudia he met was the old version. But of course he knows the history... and could make the connection between the woman who gave him the book and told him about time travel, and the woman who now enters the bunker with Regina, her daugher.
24:35 There was a scene in one of the previous episodes where "Birdman" Jonas stared at an empty space in this very kitchen. Now we know what he remembered seeing there.
25:20 "You can stop me... or try to save her."
Spoken to young Jonas... but not meant for him. It was "Birdman" Jonas who would (earlier) later try to do both: save Martha by locking her in the bunker, and then, pistol in hand, wait for Adam to appear in the kitchen.
Perhaps he would have succeeded, had he tried to do just one thing. But again... he didn't know at that moment what the future would hold for him... Noah showing up and all that.
Always remember: there is no loop. Each person goes through their life just once.
26:52 When you consider it - even without any spoilers for Season 3 - Magnus and Franziska were the luckiest of the whole bunch. All these broken lives, all these lies and intrigues and lost loves... but these two stayed together.
33:50 "Is that something that he did before?"
The core problem of this show. Is there a loop? How often did these events happen? Just once, but "bootstrapped"? Or multiple times... cause by the previous iteration.
The protagonists always talk about "the cycle" or "the loop"... but we never get to see it. None of it. We never get to see two scenes, showing the same "possible" event, but different.
Even when we are told that things _are_ different... like when Bartosz says that "this shouldn't happen this way" when Katharina takes his time machine... or when young Jonas tells Claudia that they "will change small things"... we never know if that is _true_ ... or just something that someone else told them.
You're right: this show is soooo good.
37:00 onwards.
Remember: just once for every character. "Birdman" Jonas doesn't know what will happen. He hasn't lived through it. What he does is totally new for him... and he still hopes that he can change what will happen.
He remembers seeing Martha get shot... but that was in his past, not his future. He can change it... and he hopes that by bringing Martha to the bunker, he will have changed it. He doesn't know that she will escape... because _that_ he has never experienced. Young Jonas was elsewhere... he didn't know Martha even was in the bunker. He only knows he met her at his house. And "Birdman" Jonas tried to be there and prevent Adam from doing anything... he just got guided into a different direction.
It's really confusing when you have to work out what each of the protagonists know at which time, and seperate that from what we as the audience knows.
*** Spoiler alert ***. The magnus and francisca comment area obviously spoiler. U think is not because u have watched so many times that it turned trivial and obvius for you and is not a spoiler. Every dark fan commit errors because they are too fans. Like a math professor saying math is easy and obvious etc
Spoiler S3E7:
- "The protagonists always talk about "the cycle" or "the loop" ... but we never get to see it. None of it. We never get to see two scenes, showing the same "possible" event, but different." -
This isn't actually the case. The montage in S3E7 shows the audience multiple scenes that can be compared to their original scene and one can see multiple changes in them. Claudia never greets her younger self with "Hello Claudia!" in their first meeting and Gretchen also doesn't walk trough the door in the montage although she did in S2E2. Charlotte never says "You are not my father." to Noah in S2E5, yet she does it in the montage. Young Jonas is standing on the opposite side of the forest at the lake in S2E6 compared to S3E7. And the Stranger marks the way to the passageway on Michael's map at 23:49 in the montage, yet he did that at 6:49 in S1E4 (note the digital clock in focus). One even could go as far that the two scenes of Erik getting put into the chair are the same, yet different moments.
I think that's enough evidence that things are changing especially when they are stacked on top of each other in a montage that deliberately shows the series again. These can't be just editing issues. Nevertheless people are stuck in this loop because of time (that's why Jonas and Noah can't kill himself/Adam). Everything is determined by the beginning and the end but the way to get from beginning and end can vary as long as they start from the beginning and end at the end. I mean even Eva and Claudia suggest this principle that the journey of all things can vary but their destination is predetermined. In S3E1 Eva says: "If we knew how things end where our journey would take us. Would we still take the same decisions? Or would we choose a different path? Could we even escape our fate or would something deep within us lead us to the same end, like an invisible hand? Does it matter, which path we choose, when we end up standing before ourselves, again and again?" Both of them even mention in S3E2/S3E8: "But we cannot escape our ultimately destiny." And then there is that line from Eva in S3E2, which also gets repeated in S3E8 by Claudia:"Things may not happen in the same way or at the same time, but they always happen." (Could also be interpreted as that the events between the both worlds differ and not between cycles, I just wanted to note that for completion).
Adam already saw and tried every possibilities known. Maybe, there was already a cycle before that Martha is alive, but still could not break the knot. Hence, he need to kill him repeatedly and explore other possibilities.
Adam can NOT just change the past and not shoot Martha. This HAS to happen. If it didn't, Adam wouldn't exist. And he thinks he has to exist to end it all.
This rule should be apparent by now. Just like older Jonas didn't get young Jonas out of the bunker in Season 1. It had to happen so that older Jonas could exist to close the passage (even though he didn't know it wouldn't work and CREATE the passage instead).
The show is amazing.
That's the one thing that keeps bothering me in this show... would it be possible to change something in that way?
We get to see a glimpse in how this "you can't change what must happen, because the future already happened" idea works, when Noah tries to shoot Adam, and the pistol just doesn't work.
It gives us this idea of "time doesn't allow that to happen".
And there are lots of instances where it is understandable why people acted in the way their future egos knew they would, and not in any other way... but in these cases, they don't know, from direct experience, what their actions will result in.
When Stranger Jonas locks Martha in the bunker, he doesn't know that she will escape. He hopes to have changed the events, and he does not - cannot - know that they didn't; that his actions once again _led_ to the same events happening.
But what about inaction. Deciding _not_ to do something. Deciding _not_ to draw a gun and shoot the love of your life. No one, nothing can force that on you.
Yes, it is understandable why Adam didn't do it. *But he didn't even try!* What would have happened if he had tried? Anything but what we saw.
It's totally understanable from the storytelling aspect of the show... but from the pure mechanics of "How does this stuff work?", it is very unsatisfying.
@@Groffili You can do what you will but you cannot will what you will. He must *want* to shoot her.
@@GroffiliThat’s my one problem, too. The behavioral determinism, the “SOMEONE will prevent you from changing things” makes sense and is very believable. The “SOMETHING (gun jamming) will prevent it” leans a bit much to the fi part of sci-fi. On the other hand, maybe it makes sense if you’re not looking at it as the Grandfather Paradox, and instead “that’s what happened, so that’s what happens”.
@@raezor82 You guys get caught up too much in the "small picture". the gun jams happens no matter how many times cuz this is the timeline that everything that will happen, happens you know.
The gun not jamming in any of those instance destroy this "timeline" and therefore doesn't "happen", we are watching the "timeline" that everything went "right" for lack of better word.
Thinking what ifs is nonsensical, everything that happened, happens cuz otherwise the end wouldn't happen it.
You walked your life and if you thought maybe i could do this that time, that time it wouldn't be "you" cuz you had to first make you first decision to think about maybes.I know its crazy talk but if you go by this philosophy it kinda makes sense.
This show is so good right?!? We told you. I love so much the end of season 2, when you're figuring so many things out and they come with the end and blow up your mind with, "the question is not when but which world.". IMO season 3 is even better. I don't know how they managed to to that, but they did it. This show is just phenomenal.
Different Jonas think they can change time in different ways from their perspective, but we assume that they cant from our perspective(who is right only time will tell). Its like a fish that think that the pond is the whole world, except it isn't but for the fish perspective he's not wrong.
31:54 your face ➡️😮
Omg. I love watching the reactions to this show. 😂
So funny to see your 😮 with Elizabeth, and the end of final episode😂. Told you, you could not know what was coming. And the final season gets even harder to understand, as you will already see next week. This 3rd season will answer your mindfuck questions. See ya then Carmen ✌
your reactions are so cool!! especially when you already know the whole story ... keep being patient, you will get your answers!
Anyone ever wondered how Adam escaped the apocalypse? I've been wrecking my brain about that.
there are no dumb or stupid people when watching this show... it is all confusing and all explained in time... I watched with english dubbing and had no problem with it... all the voice actors do really good and if you do not look too close at their mouths it is fine.. sometimes hearing the conversation helps it make sense.. you will love it more every time you rewatch
FYI "Birdman" is 50, not in his thirties. (That does make that one dream-scene even weirder I guess)
Fun fact: There is only one gun in this episode
That would make Charlotte and Jonas first cousins thrice removed and Franziska and Magnus second cousins once removed.
I had to draw a family tree to make it less confusing, and I came to the same conclusions. Still confusing.
And they're all descended from Noah's and Agnes' parents, who are themselves descended from the same person!
You really need to get over the Jonas Martha incest. Theyre beautiful together in this messed up world.
they truly love each other and when first attracted did not know they are related... once they are in love it is hard to deny what your heart wants and yes basically the entire town is related... love your reactions ... enjoy the rest