BS7671 18th Edition Amendment 2 Part 4
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- Опубликовано: 29 апр 2022
- BS7671 18th Amendment 2, published March 2022. This covers the main changes in part 4.
IET Fake Awareness with list of approved suppliers: electrical.theiet.org/bs-7671...
Other videos in this series: • BS7671 18th Edition Am...
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Replacing consumer units soon is going to be an astronomical cost.
Protected escape routes are normally used for nothing other than means of escape. Concrete stairs and walls. They look like unfinished parts of a building you do not normally have access to, other than escape!
Some are like that, but it also includes normal stairways, corridors, particularly where the building only has one exit route.
@@jwflame I think this will become the main contentious point in amendment 2. The IET presentation webinar stated that a protected escape route is a very particular design by a fire design specialist and is likely to be sterile fire stairwells where's there's nothing but steel and bare concrete - rather than an ordinary corridor that happens to need 60/90/120-minute protection. However while the definition in part 2 does allude to construction it is extremely vague, yet does say "see also escape route" implying there is more than one type. I predict some clarification in amendment 3!
@@jwflame This might help ruclips.net/video/ntDCLNveRDI/видео.html
Technically Surge Protection should be a DNO responsibility to provide a clean supply
In terms of lightning that could be true, but most surges are caused by switching within installations.
Thank you John for these excellent videos you make. I can log this here now as part of my CPD in this comment 😊😅
Nice run through John. Thanks 🙌
Another excellent video JW much appreciated 👍
Will afdd trip with welding equipment
Thank you John for these excellent videos you make 😊
JW is BS7671
BS = Bravo Super-elegant
7671 = is JW's skill level out of 7671
Jw thanks for your posting,
In terms of the type of cable aloud in protected escape routs I can see pyro making a massive comeback.
We already have a cable fire classification system in place here in the EU. CCA-class cable is required for locations such as the description and is very similar in construction and use to previous fixed installation cables. I believe that a similar solution will be reached in the UK. I don’t think we’ve ever had a ceramic cable like the UK pyro cable in use, at least I haven’t seen one in my own career (20 years).
SPDs JW you mentioned risk of damage to things like TVs laptops and iPads? well no the worst that’s will happen is the mains adapter/chargers for your laptop and iPad or iPhone may be damaged once that’s gone the power serge can’t go any further ? As TVs come on there cheep as chip now I just got a new 42in from Argos for less than £150 as it is a discontinued model, ie they no longer stock the brand then there Amazon again you can get a new TV for peanut’s .
So know don’t just fit SPDs if the client says no then it’s no simple as that the public do have rights and one of them is the right to say no . But who am I to argue i’am just a humble spark who’s opinion means nothing.fantastic video JW as always 👍👍
It comes to something when regulations dictate that units (AFDD/CB/SPD), costing more than a TV have to be installed to protect the TV 🤣🤣🤣
Thinking of surge protection in domestic situations and the 'failure of a safety service' - I would hope that fire/smoke detector units should be designed & constructed to take account of the potential for surges and therefore not require further protection.
SPDs are all very well when first installed but who is monitoring them and how effective are they once they have 'dumped' 10 or 15 surges. Home owners will be lulled into a false sense of security if they are led to believe that their installation is 'fully protected from surges'.
True, though we're surely all used to surge protected power strips by now, with the green light showing that they're out of surge absorption capacity.
@@seprishere Sorry I've never seen one and, as I'm a bloke, I would not have RTFM to even know what the green light meant! 😂
Back to my point who will monitor SPDs installed in CUs?
Greetings John, hope you're well,,,
have to say I am enjoying these videos you have produced,, I'm 17th edition trained,, grafted for a few seasons and got fed up of the constant grazes+cuts and sore knuckles,,, started being a carer and doing hobby electronics instead,,,
I have learnt a lot from the electronic studies so these newer regulations and some of the devices emerging make sense to me particularly surge devices,, I have seen a lot of electronic circuits with various filters to condition the input A.C. and surge protectors MOV's and the like,,, I sometimes imagine a day where each individual installation should take the incoming supply and this is then sent through a box-of-tricks which takes noises/spikes/harmonics etc,,, out of the mains by rectifying and reassembling a nice clean well defined sine wave,
love the education from a trusted source, Because of you I actually feel like retraining and rejoining.
cheers John.
I would get them to sign if they refuse to get surge protection fitted, as otherwise they will claim I never told them, and suddenly I am being sued for the renter losing their stereo..lol
How many members of the general public do know who knows about AFDDs and or SPDs ? None , the chances of getting sued ie highly unlikely.
Getting someone to sign a disclaimer is tantamount to forcing them to have something they don’t want or need. AFDD is only required in certain locations . And recommend for all other locations. And as JW said in a reply SPDs are only required we’re the installation is at high Risk of a direct lighting strike such as overhead power lines and high rise buildings, and rural locations, most domestic dwellings don’t need them . That’s why the risk assessment has been scrapped and deleted from BS7671 .But who am I to argue i’am just a humble spark who’s opinion means nothing.
@@seandempsey7351 we are seeing more lawsuits against sparks over minor things.. because lawyers want money so they convince people to sue over such things, all to get the money.. not for their clients or for actual wrongs. So I will get a signature if I tell a guy he really should install surge and he says he does not need it.. because he is renting out the property.. I cannot force a client to install AFDDs, or RCDs or surge protectors.. even if I install them in my own home for my own family.
equally should a customer want a warranty that that should their goods fail with an SPD they were forced to pay for ( albeit cheap ) they will be replaced ? I really don't get this SPD stuff and it being compulsory. Just seems very strange. And as you say, who monitors it ?
And who decides the type of SPD ?
I work in schools. A lot of cables follow the corridors on tray work abovr the false ceiling. There is no way the tiles are fire rated so does this mean the cables can no longer go there? Premature collapse is dealt with on the tray but the smoke would be insane
Hi John, firstly thanks for the videos, always very informative. Would you be able to advise your take on a new build site of c380 units where the design was completed under amendment 1 but c200 units will commence installation / commissioning post 27/9/22. Discussing with the IET they mentioned it would be reasonable to continue the installation as designed as in theory this forms part of the contract however the removal of the “designed before” has produced some confusion and equally how this looks in terms of certification when the design standard is withdrawn?
Thanks
Theoretically the standard applies for anything designed from that date.
However as work hasn't yet started, the design should be updated. Otherwise it's just postponing the inevitable upgrade work when the next EICR is done, and altering existing installations will cost more than just installing it correctly in the first place.
it should be mandated that SPDs are connected to some kind of monitoring system.Most that I have come across the little flag changes colour to show that they have operated..end of story....Is Mrs Jones going to check every day /week /month or year or at all to see if the flag has changed colour and what to do if it has..Her TV is still working fine,no power outage ....there are some that can operate a relay but often this is not used.
JW - have you considered the terminology used on 421.1.7 '62606 is recommended', P18 of 7671 defines that as 'should'.
Hi JW. Reading the list of uses for the AFDD, I'm a little confused. Do they need to be included in dwellings?
no mention of them.
Required in the 4 items listed. Recommended for use in other places.
Hello John,
To your point about mini trunking in corridors being a C2 on a EICR report. It was my understanding the Regulations were not backward looking, in that if an installation complied when installed it would still be accepted.
Am I wrong in that interpretation?
Installations are coded to the standard that's applicable at the time of the inspection - not when it was installed. This will mean that some older installs don't comply any more. Some of those may just be 'improvement required' for where safety is not affected. However where safety is affected such as plastic trunking melting causing toxic smoke and cables to fall obstructing escape routes, C2 is the only option.
If installations were coded to the date of installation, things like live front switchboards and double pole fusing would still be acceptable.
@@jwflame Health and safety executive’s note , witch has been updated in amendment 2 , installations installed to an earlier edition of BS7671 may not conform to the current standard, that dose not mean that it should be replaced or upgraded as it is likely to conform with the electrical safety at work regulations. No one seems to read this note or take any notice of it, hence why it has been updated to to make it clear any who can’t accept the fact should not be getting elbow deep in someone’s electric’s.
@@jwflame INE
HSE
Note by the Health and Safety Executive
The Health and Safety Executive (HSE) welcomes the publication of
BS 7671:2018, Requirements for Electrical Installations, IT Wiring
Requlations 18th Edition and its updating with the second
amendment, published in 2022. BS 7671 and the ET/IEE Wiring
Regulations have been extensively referred to in HSE guidance over
the years. Installations which conforms to the standards laid down in
BS 7671:2018+A2:2022 are regarded by HSE as likely to achieve
conformity with the relevant parts of the Electricity at Work
Requlations 1989. Installations to which BS 7671 is relevant may
have been designed and installed in accordance with an earlier
edition, now superseded but then current. That, in itself, would not
mean that the installation would fail to comply with the Electricity
at Work Regulations 1989."
So glad i didnt go for the pen device when ev charger installed although not retrospective my earth stake is already there just need to connect it to the dno earth , would there be a need to disconnect this link when testing to check the dno earth The maximum external earth fault loop impedence Ze is 0.35 ohms.
The maximum prospective fault current is 16 kA although the stand alone stake would not meet these figures would this need to be mentioned to the dno ? would they correct or then rely on the TT installation ?
The earth rod needs to have an Ra of
yes fit the SPD GOOD TALK
JW we are not worthy😊
I wonder if a single AFDD might as well be installed to cover all of the circuits or would this possibly cause nuisance tripping?
No, as they are only made up to 40 amps, and using one for multiple circuits wouldn't comply for the same reasons as having a single RCD for multiple circuits - one fault would disconnect more than one circuit.
the electrician decides upon the level of spd used, depending upon the needs of the customer. But, at the leas, a whole house spd should be fitted at main panel. Refrigeration SPDs and Electronics or Computer SPDs are different, and are fitted on different circuits, based again upon need... usually between outlet and appliance. But, I sometimes wonder why many manufacturers do not build such into their appliances, other than the need to sell replacement appliances..like the old days of the CB craze, when it took a 1P device on the circuit boards in the TV or Radio to cut out interference from CBers, but, cost more than ten pounds to do it outside the device..
Surge protection devices are consumable and eventually "use up" their surge absorption capacity, so you might not want it in the applicance. Better to put it in a cheap adapter or power strip.
Hey John.... Any tip on testing the newly installed Electrodes....eg...Ze....in combination with existing TNS/TNCS supplied earth...???
Same as for any other electrode, ruclips.net/p/PLVsHvs2SuqmoGuQa4SNL9FOYjHhGmTZ9G
The difference when using it with a TN supply is that the electrode would be tested separately, (not connected to the TN earth terminal), and the earth loop impedance of the TN supply would be tested without the electrode connected.
@@jwflame Cheers.
In sevice though, the Ze for the location would, presumably, be lower, as now they are now both connected in parallel with each other.
So. test separately....to prove they both exsist...and record each reading as a separate Ze.....or...after testing separately and proving exsistance of each... connect and test combined for a true Ze result for the location and certificate.
Surely achieving a good earth with a single rod will be a total nightmare for most installations as well as being extremely impractical to install ? Should it not be the responsibility of the DNO ?
About 17 minutes in the Video. Does that also Include gray Twin and Earth Cable ?
Grey T&E is PVC so will create massive amounts of toxic smoke in a fire. Not permitted in escape routes.
@@jwflame So. correct me if im Wrong. Perhaps FTP Cable (Cable used for Emergancy Lights and Fire Alarms) Should be Used
What about LSF cables in steel trunking etc, which is very common ?
@@blow0me That's fine, as the steel is fire resistant and the cable won't create toxic smoke.
That surge protection opt out strikes me as a very grey legal area, regardless of it being in the regs. You're quite right JW, a plaintiff in court could easily argue exactly what you suggested, "I couldn't reasonably have known what that meant", and a court would almost certainly find in their favour. My experience of this situation isn't in electricals, its in transport, and (rather like DVSA etc) I suspect this may be a regulatory authority fishing for a court judgment in order to settle it. Which requires a mug to fall for it. I'd go with your advice, fit it anyway and don't discuss.
Equally if you are forced to fit SPD on the basis of equipment protection etc, I hope the suppliers of said SPD offer a full guarantee if your equipment ever gets damaged, they will replace. It all seems a bit weird.
The SPD is a bit weird. So do suppliers of SPDs offer a guarantee that no electrical equipment will be damaged if you have their SPD fitted ? And as an SPD seems to.be a trippable device...what if there are 2 surges ? How many surges does it protect against ?
And for AFDD's, was it not yourself suggested these do not work well on ring circuits ? How does that go ?
SPDs gradually degrade, they will handle hundreds or thousands of surges before replacement is required. How many depends on the amount of energy in each, which varies massively.
A series arc on a ring circuit wont be detected, as the current involved will usually be below the detection threshold for AFDDs, but the amount of energy is also low so fire isn't likely. The still work for parallel arc faults, and for both series and parallel arc faults on connected equipment and items such as extension leads.
It's worth looking at this 3 minute explanation of protected escape routes from the IET themselves. It seems to offer a slightly different definition of scope. ruclips.net/video/ntDCLNveRDI/видео.html
Risk assessment was to keep it in line with harmonised European documents. Lightning surges are more devastating and require a Type 1 SPD. Your assessment is misleading.
Most buildings do not require Type 1 SPDs.
@@jwflame how would you determine that? With an assessment right? That's my point. We shouldn't say risk assessments are nonsense. We should say if there is a risk of a direct lightning strike because a dwelling is exposed (high rise building in a rural area, over head power or telecoms supply lines at risk of direct strike for examples) need to have Type 1 power and Category D tested telecom SPDs. IET regulations should project professionalism from the standards that they are compiled from. Please take care in your future teachings. You are great at educating and I of course respect you for your outreach.
@@alphaomega7868 Overhead supply or building already has lightning protection installed = Type 1 required.
Underground supply and no LPS installed = Type 2 required.
Whether a building needs lightning protection is a separate issue and isn't covered by BS7671.