I think another important note for Toxrill after playing it for a little while. It also clears indestructible, protected from, and shroud/hexproof creatures from the table in a cycle or two of turns.
Okay but is your toxril deck a 5000 dollar optimum deck or is it janky and thrown together? Hes fun but he really isnt that amazing unless you have all the right shit and even then. It instantly becomes a 3v1. I've seen decks that can if they have optimum starting hand win THE FIRST TURN. 5th turn wins are also common. He really ain't that bad in the grand scheme of things
A couple interesting trends I noticed: commander tax evasion, commanders that singlehandedly control the board state, stax-style or resource denying commanders, and OP "goodstuff" commanders are the most prevalent. Most likely because people don't like playing against someone who has/is perceived to have an unfair advantage... who would've guessed?
Most of all resource denial. People will still do something awesome when opponent will do something awesomer. When they can't play cards, why are they even there?
when i play koma i let people know i will not be using that ability, and it's not because i'd feel bad, but because i'm a crappy counterspell player where i don't realize what is a threat or when it should be dealt with.
Yes i have a Koma deck and when you build your deck good. With a lot of counterspells and ramp Koma is very hard to remove. I also have a Zacama deck and in my opinion zacama is definitely weaker than Koma. I would say koma and Toxrill have more ore less the same Power.
Best thing I've seen with a Koma deck was when they paired it with a copy of Sakashima and Sakashima student and just made an Asston of Koma Coil tokens and would use the other two Komas to tap down anything that tried to counter em
Shoutout to Azami, Lady of Scrolls. Back in the day, she was one of the most hated commanders in my circle. Since then, a lot more hated cards have taken the attention off of her, but she still sneaks in from time to time with a ruthless card advantage that nobody wants to deal with. Every great counterspell in my 30 card+ hand? No thanks.
Heh, I run Azami basically as 'wizards with activated abilities tribal,' so I don't run a stupid number of 'true' counterspells (75ish% of my removal is on creatures). However, that does mean I run literally every wizard that includes the word 'counter.' The game plan is: let me combo off with Thoracle or I counter every card you play, repeatedly (thanks Ertai, patron wizard, etc). Let me win, or we both lose. I could see how that's salt inducing.
in a 1v1 my azami normally wins at turn 4-5. the other person most of the time knows, that its basically over. mind over matter, laboratory maniac, the new blue mermaid, jace, you have so many win cons. i used to run 2-3 tribal buffs to even smack people with huge wizards but i turned into a full control, cheap good wizards tribal with a few counterspells and its a force to be reckoned. on most multiplayer tables everyone else is just like: „lets take out the blue guy before we even start to play“ so i rarely get it out. and i can understand because its the most reasonable thing u can do when theres a deck that can combo off in turn 5-7 and just instantly win the game or shut down the whole table.
Lord Windgrace is such a good value engine, I totally underestimated him when he was spoiled, but having played with him now maybe 5 times I think the card is super awesome... I didn't even realize people were playing land destruction with Lord Windgrace lol I was so surprised when he popped up on screen
As the tergrid player that kept the narset player down cause they only had one creature, it's a pretty good match up for tergrid. 10+ mana for Narset makes her seem more balanced
Tergrid player here as well. Sometimes it’s fun to be the mean person. Plus I have a person who plays a Markov deck and a sliver cascade food chain deck.
I run Grand Arbiter and everyone hated me. So I switched to Medomai the Ageless and put Lighthous Chronologist back in my deck... Not 1 person complained when I went back to Grand Arbiter the following game 😅
@@Kurayamiblack idk, I've played against someone playing armageddon after the most misleading rule 0 talk. Made it sound like the deck wasn't hot poop, but it was. T1, fast mana, t2 arbiter, t3 armageddon.
Only just noticed I was not subbed. Pretty crazy since I watch you sometimes for over a year. I love commander stats & tier lists so I love your content. Keep it up!
I almost was able to breathe a sigh of relief to be able to say I don't run any of these, then the Eldrazi titans showed up. I'm currently hanging my head in shame.
I built Derevi. I would enchant my lands and have unblockable creatures to make large amounts of mana. And had lots of mana sinks for thr mana the deck is sick
A friend of mine recently started playing EDH with us, coming from Legacy. First deck he built: Urza (with the orbs). Second deck: Darevi (also with stax), and now he's building Zur... :'D
Sounds amazing. No, I actually mean it :D I'm of the firm opinion that playing stax is like adding much needed salt to the goldfishing turbo deck soup. Makes games more interesting, to me. But I'm also the kind of person who doesn't add blue to every single of his EDH decks..
Five is not so much. I too have five: Tatyova, Kenrith, Korvold, Baral and Kozilek (the cheap, new one). But I use Baral in the 99 of Talrand, and my Kozilek deck doesn't have the other 4 Eldrazi legendaries (which I currently can't afford). But my Tatyova and Korvold decks do have the long turns they say. It's curious they didn't mention Jhoira (the new one). That one has the looongest turns ever. I know. I use her. I play it with my wife. My wife hates me... :-P
I built Kenrith with Zirda as the companion. So every nonland permanent in the deck has an activated ability. It severely cripples how strong you can make the deck, I even have training grounds and every other reducer so I COULD make it incredibly nasty, but I really wanted to make Zirda the companion and try to make the best Kenrith deck I could with that restriction and despite that it's honestly pretty good. It's probably at right around an 8/10. If I built it optimized it would be vastly different though and half the deck would be wildly different. I have Korvald as goblin tribal, and it can be fast, but it can also quite easily stumble and just never get enough gas to become a threat. I play in a highly competitive casual group, we don't have cedh pieces really, a couple of the smaller ones like flusterstorm and force of negation, but no vaults or crypts.
@@minu2910 It's not. You misread what I said. I said I COULD make it much meaner using every cost reducer and more broken creatures, but I didn't, I limited myself instead to stay within the parameters for the companion.
@@stfinalwrath I've thought about this deck for awhile. If you want to put an interesting twist on it consider adding Lazav, the Multifarious into it as a hidden commander. The deck already is leaning in the direction of creature ability combos so he's a great form of redundancy. Quicksilver elemental is similar. That lets you work with niche subthemes like all the Figure of Destiny variants or level up creatures which is super cool if you want to keep it lower in power.
It was a glorious day when I Narset’s Reversal’d the Narset players time stretch and beat him with commander damage before he could take his other extra turns.
In my playgroup there was a guy that only played Tergrid in response I would only play Codie a deck with almost no permanents. I beat his deck about 30 games in a row and then he stopped coming.
Thank you, NN for making me reconsider using Koma and Toxrill for my Simic and Dimir color pairs. I almost made a horrible mistake. I instead opted for Grolnok and Runo, respectively (and respectfully to my playgroup). I am still building Windgrace, but I am not pairing him with board wipe or mass land destruction. And I do NOT run the infinite with my Niv Parun deck.
Parun is more fun without it. I still love the deck, it can still win but it is a harder puzzle. Also sometimes I just deck myself and lose 😂 which I’m trying to avoid but it’s honestly been funny every time
You guys are absolutely AMAZING. Amazing content, but honestly it’s your personalities and game knowledge. Y’all please subscribe and support!!! These guys are the absolute BEST MTG channel! Peace and taco grease!
Having played against Godo way too often, let's see if he makes the list. Tutors on commanders are inherently stupid. The cEDH deck just races to 11 mama for helm combo. The regular EDH version always tutors out Sword of hearth and home, followed by Hammer of Nazahn.
When I first played the precon Aesi deck, I used Spitting Image to make three of it, playing 4 lands and drawing 12 cards a turn. Literally started running out of things to use mana for. Fun.
how are you making the copies stick? Aesi is legendary, so copying it would just have you put either the copies or the original into the graveyard because of the legend rule.
@@TheIrrelevantYT ah yes makes sense. I just remember when I first started playing, I didnt know about the legend rule, so when I had the opportunity to copy something for once I was very sad when I was informed how it worked lol
We've learned how to deal with both Tergrid and Toxrill (played by the same person in our group): Everyone gangs up on him and stomps him into the ground, ignoring his complaints about 'unfairness'.
I feel you forgot the partners. Kodama, tymna, thrasios and sakashima all have that “why wouldn’t I play this as my partner” effect. As a result a lot of decks are more powerful and non inspired. Also because of them WOTC is limited with future design. Further I don’t mind the slug. We all know 7 mana in non green decks is a lot different and with the power creep (especially on creatures) is more than fair.
I built a krark the thumbless//Sakashima deck and disassembled it a couple weeks later because of sheer degeneracy. Looked fun and goofy on the surface- in play it was a nightmare for anyone to deal with and just watch me flip a coin for 10 minutes
@@FreeAtlas. yeah played against one who had that with fierce guardianship it. Together with veyran on the battlefield. It was a 99% chance non creature lock
@@FreeAtlas. I raise you Vial Smasher//Sakashima. "Miracle Temporal Mastery, 2 people take 7. Clone, Extra turn. Dig through time, 3 people take 10, oh look, I drew an extra turn spell." Utterly degenerate if VS and/or Sakashima aren't instantly removed.
I'm surprised about Yuriko, in my experience, if she does the thing, the game is over fast and you just get to play a new game and this time without Yuriko if people don't want that kind of game again (I can see it get annoying if you have a player in your group who will play nothing else, but I think that goes for most commanders)
My brother plays her and more or less exclusively these last months. It dodges most of my hate pieces and removal and it's as annoying as it is effective. But yes, it's definitely not a deck that draws out games. With all that extra draw power, rather sooner than later he always finds his Thoracle+Consultation and it's over. Also definitely not unbeatable.
I play my Grand Arbiter deck and go to stacks and hate for those decks that single out a player and make them unable to play the game when they play those decks. I will let them play it once and get a game out of it and then I go that route unless they get on a commander that allows for the group to play fun games with giant haymakers. Humility on T2or several counters in that heavily run deck with overwhelming splendor attached to them makes all their ninjutsu worthless since they come in and are attacking 1/1 without abilities.
What people often get wrong about Winter Orb is thinking the effect is symmetrical. Winter Orb and Howling Mine are the only 2 artifacts that still follow the old fashioned "Mono Artifacts only work when tapped" rule. They're literally still treated as Mono Artifacts. This means if you tap Winter Orb then end your turn it will only effect your opponents, not you. It will untap as usual and you can use all of your lands.
Koma in my opinion is one of those very well designed cards, but hated cards because it's so good at what it's designed for which is to stop plays on board. It's so powerful in the hands of a skilled player.
Great video, i think joey C is underestimating the sheer backbreaking nature of koma, tapping down lands, important mana rocks, or strip commanders of their abilities is huge. Its better in the 99 for commander though.
I'm so glad I ended up not building tergrid. Seemed fun to play as until I considered what the opponents would be able to do. Just doesn't seem like a good time for either side lol
At the local game store we commonly have a pod where we have 3 super powerful decks. Toxrill (me), Umbris, and Tergrid. The Toxrill and Umbris decks all have exile effects and hard negates Tergrid.
I overcame Tergrid by immediately focusing on that player with my Atraxa infect deck. Tergrid got cast once, and not enough mana to do any discard spells or wheel-like effects. And on my turn the counter hit 10. And then Tergrid was no longer a problem.
@@BAAWAKnight ive never seen someone lose to infect and not feel bad about it. Setting ur life to 10 in a 40 life format is just cheese. But thats the game. And while it does balance life gain that doesnt mean both arent toxic (infect and mass life gain) for most pods
@@ConstanceMists Having to do ALL THE WORK as an infect player CLEARLY balances it all out. While you all are beating each other's life totals or milling or just being a boring, pedestrian person who plays the ConsOracle combo: I have to do it all by myself. It's a challenge, and people overestimate infect's efficacy.
The reason Koma is so hated is because an optimal Koma deck runs all the token doublers it can and then just taps all of your mana down every turn. Because that tap ability is any permanent, not just creatures. So even if you GET your removal, you probably won't have the opportunity to USE it.
@@Sean.Thomas2 you can. But you lose your mana as phases passes. So what they do, is tap your mana at the beginning of your turn right after the untap step but before your main phase. When you enter your main phase you lose all the mana you floated, making you unable cast most of your cards. So if you have an instant, a card with flash or a permanent with an activated ability you can use the mana Koma is trying to tap, if not than you basically cant.
The problem with Toxrill I noticed after playing against it a lot is that, even outside of creature decks, most decks in general just require creatures at some point. You really only have two options against the slug. 1) play creature-less combo or 2) remove it instantly. However, with these answers you develop new problems where the games become too high power or the Toxrill player gets hated out. The best answer my pod found was to just not play the commander because no one involved had fun
I have this one friend who always complains. When he doesn't get enough lands, he complains about not having any mana. If he gets too many lands then he complains about not having creatures. So, I decide to build him an Aesi deck with a bunch if ramp so if he gets too little lands, he can get more, and if he gets too many, he can play Aesi for card draw. I was hoping that he wouldn't complain, but now he complains that games take too long.
I’m surprised to not see the giant board wipe on a stick, Child of Alara. Since they changed the rule re: commanders dying, you no longer need to shell out for a Volrath’s Stronghold to recur it.
Najeela, the blade blossom is well deserving of this list. Card gets more nuts the more you read it and realize it needs no warriors to actually be in the deck to go infinite
I have a A Kenrith tokens deck that has both Toxrill and Koma along with almost all of the "At the beginning of each upkeep" and "At the beginning of each end step" cards in it. The deck is Affectionately named "Triggered" due to all the triggers on each turn.
Fynn the Fangbearer. He's dirt cheap to bring out. (He only costs 2) He's green, so if he's bolted, you can bring him back easy. Just five hits from either him or anything with Deathtouch while he's on the field is all you need to end the game. Even if you only get him to hit once, all you gotta do is proliferate enough times without getting hit which is easy since your deck not only consists of cards with Proliferate but also Deathtouch fodder to keep everyone else at bay.
As an Aesi player, I’ve actively tried to speed up my play to avoid that stigma of “your turns take too long.” That, and about 5-7 finishers to close games as quickly as possible.
A friend reintroduced to playing Magic and introduced me to Commander by letting me play his incredibly strong Zakama deck. This was like 6-7 years ago, 9 own decks and a lot of hours of enjoyment later I still remember this very first game... ah and the second was with his Edgar Markov deck. With my friends guidance I won both matches cause they were just so stupidly strong as well as entertaining. The video brought back some memories!
Bant and Esper is therefore the default deck with the most hated cards. 2 brawl commanders and 2 jund precons are just op. Btw, derevi vs yuriko, which is the stronger tax evasion commander?
Kind of pleasantly surprised that I don’t have any of these commanders. Was tempted to run tergrid at one point but decided against since I found a commander that fit the deck better. My favorite example of a fun but powerful commander is Darien, king of kjeldor who makes tokens equal to damage you take, combined with white normally having cards that give life when a creature enters the battlefield, it creates a pseudo-invincibility, the deck needs solid protection since he’s the lynchpin for the whole deck but it allows both you and other players to play in a fun way. Unlike some of these cards that deny a player to do anything except scoop or pass turn.
The one deck I have that my buddy hates playing against is Sythis. The reason why isn't the commander herself, but many of the tax and stax pieces around it that just happen to be good enchantments on their own. It plays stuff like Stony Silence and Suppression Field to slow this my opponents might do down while not really affecting me. There's the Ghostly Prison and Sphere of Safety to reduce our cancel people attacking me. Then, it runs a boatload of enchantment based removal from more hard removal like O Ring to softer removal that is sometimes worse like Kenrith's Transformation.
So can someone explain the "this deck isn't fun because it does the same thing each game" complaint to me? I see a lot of people say it, but to my understanding that's something most decks do. I thought it might be a power level complaint, but even on lower power decks this argument seems like it would apply. Like your merfolk wins the same way each game! You play merfolk and turn them sideways. You always wait until you have a lord with island walk and then you spreading seas my land to one shot me! I'm assuming I'm misunderstanding the complaint/argument and would love to learn what part of the similar game plan each game is the frustrating part.
I see your point, and I'm usually down for any style of game so I usually don't care as much, but here it is from my perspective. If I am playing multiple games in a 6-8 power range, and one player is playing the same deck and using tutors or other effects to get the same 2 or 3 card combo and win, it kinda bothers me as it says: "everything that has happened upto this point in the game has been meaningless". If the power level is higher than 8, then I'm expecting quick, efficient, repetitive combos, so it doesn't bother me, but that's just my take on it.
For me it isn't an issue of fun as opposed to "gets stale or boring" coz deck plays same every time. Some like that consistency though, so to each his or her own.
It's kind of easier to see than describe: or in other words, you know it when you see it. But I'll try. Your example of merfolk is not really the same thing, because it's a lot more vague. First off, who is your Commander? You can get them in any color. In context, a merfolk tribal deck probably wants to win through combat, but even that tends to be a lot more varied. How wide are you going? Are you going tall? Are you stacking lords? Do you have a secondary win con such as mill? There are a lot of choices. Compare this to the average Jhoira, Narset or Tergrid deck. You cast the Commander, you do the thing, or you fizzle. That's not to say you can't build them in a janky way, but generally people aren't building them that way. If Joe Random sits down and pulls out Jhoira, I have an exact assumption as to what he's doing: cost reduction, drop a million artifacts in a turn, storm off. If that same guy had Sygg, River Cutthroat, I don't necessarily know what he's doing as there are a lot of ways to satisfy his trigger. Tutors tend to exacerbate the problem, which is why some people cut them. If I cast Vampiric Tutor on turn 1, 2 or 3, I'm probably just grabbing Necropotence. Otherwise I'm grabbing whatever part of a combo I'm missing. The result is a very same-y game due to consistency: your play pattern tends not to vary much. I've actually adjusted or taken decks apart for that exact reason. I had a pretty good Breya deck, but it was always Infinite Combo A, Infinite Combo B, or Infinite Combo C, because that's more or less the optimum way of building her. I built Brudiclad instead and it's way more fun to me: I know I'm making tokens, but I don't know what I'm making tokens of, or how many I'm making. As a result, the games feel different. Hope this helps.
Well the issue is more of the deck as an extreme amount of Repetition and all the effects and cards lead to the deck doing the same things every game. Aesi is one of the biggest offender because it land, draw and ramp until it finds whatever wincon it has. 😊
Played once against a friend with Chulane (Historic Brawl, not commander). He managed to play THE ENTIRE DECK by turn 6. At that point, I wasn't even mad, that was amazing
@@NotSoSerious69420 fringe playable in a Power 9 format is way too strong for anything else. To put it in perspective, Legacy is closer to Modern than Vintage in terms of power, so anything lurking there is dangerous af.
@@juliofranciscogomezstoppel1860 Eh, Dack Fayden is vintage playable and not too strong everywhere else, too strong for some formats sure, but definitely not too strong for commander. I'm sure there are other cards like that
funnily enough, I had the lord windgrace precon, and I never thought to put mass land destruction in it, sure I had world breaker and strip mine, but I never ran mass land destruction. Never realised it was a hated commander.
My only issue with the deck is when they run stuff like dictate and Grace pact with it. Which they always do. My friend is building one and also adding in Tegrid and it that betrays. So he’s really just trying to see how fast he can be removed as a player the moment he sits down
Back in 95' Winter Orb was my favorite card and I had a Blue and White hard lock down deck that I won a type 2 Tournament. I've never played it in commander though. It's a good way to get hated off the table.
Me too. That card is a design mistake on par with Winter Orb. I actively refuse to play against Grand Arbiter, and Urza. Nobody likes not being able to play a game they spent a good amount of cash on, and want to play. Stax was a mistake.
@@nickhughes8179 Let's cut winter orb some slack in the design department considering it was one of the original cards for the game. I'm also not certain that stax is a mistake. Certainly the cards arent much fun to play against but there are also games that arent strictly casual. cEDH tends to see quite a few different stax pieces and effects thrown around to slow or stop other players from doing their thing, modern had lantern control as a thing and there have been various stax decks around since at least the original stasis deck that was cooked up in 96 to counter necro decks.
@@isaoblack987 I remember my friend having a particularly horrific Black and Artifact Stax 60 card deck throughout the 2000s. Contamination, Tangle Wire, Winter Orb, Static Orb, Icy Manipulator, Voltaic Key, Smokestack, No Mercy, Grave Pact, Hecatomb, Death Pits of Rath, plenty of ramp, and Sengir Autocrat for token generation, Animate Dead, Living Death, Haunted Crossroads, and Volrath's Stronghold for graveyard recursion, and Delraich for an early 6/6 Trampler to feed Autocrat tokens to. I stopped playing for a near year, because it didn't let me play at all so I figured "Whats the point?" That sentiment for me never changed as I saw the archetype progress and get some really broken cards. I saw him get a time Vault in 2006, and then create an artifact stax deck that could establish either a turn 1 infinite turn combo, or permanent Stax lock. I eventually just refused to play it, because why play when you don't even get a turn.
@@nickhughes8179 Quite a few of the older, competitive control decks made people feel that way. I think the game lost a ton of potential players over the years because of it. On the other hand - being something of a control player myself - there is a particular thrill of seeing people just give up.
@@isaoblack987 I used to play (Esper and Jeskai mostly, Grixis on occasion) control in standard from 2012-2015. I liked running cards people normally wouldn't look at because of netdecking philosophy (something I feel has homogenized gameplay and puts focus on specific cards which then spike in price from demand, which likely contributed to loss of players). Who runs Warped Physique?? I do, because my deck often has 4 or 5 cards in hand, and it kills Indestructible Gods. Who runs Counterflux?? Me, because the meta I play in has several other control players, and it wins counter wars. Who runs Stensia Bloodhall?? Well, my control deck is light on wincons, I'm not dropping $40 each for a playset of chase rares, land removal isn't used, and it can slowly burn an opponent out. Why not cut that 1 Izzet Charm for a 4th Think Twice?? Well, Charm gives me options, an extra counter, or an extra Shock, or extra card filtering, Think Twice is a double cantrip and 3 is enough. I'm often questioned (sometimes derisively), about the cards I choose to run.
I disagree with koma and toxrill, they should be swapping places. Koma is utterly miserable to play against because the thing can interact with things outside of freaking creatures. You can use koma to basically grant protection from counters by tapping lands down the allowing the phase to end so the mana goes away. It also fucks with combos and is night unkillable. Besides its in green so you can see this abomination with much more consistency than the slug guys that is just dimir that sucks and swallows at ramping.
Koma is god teir in 1v1 vs 3 or 5 more players not super good, toxrill gives slimer cooters every turn (not just *your* end step) tho, and they remain on your creatures the whole game, dimir may suck at ramp but its reanimator colors
Re: Tatyova. There’s someone at the LGS I go to who I sometimes end up in the same pod with. They have the most annoying Tatyova deck. $1500+ with what feels like every counterspell. And the kicker (2)? There’re casual and competitive pods and they just sit in the casual ones. Most of us run
I ask people whenever I play my Tatyova deck what they don't want to see (aside from counterspells, as I only run 4). If they don't want to see extra turns, they come out and I put in some landfall dorks. If they don't want to see infinite combos, they come out and I pop in some card draw instead. Instant wins like Thoracle/Labman? Pop in some Chungus lands matter creatures. I will 100% cater to the table, because I know how unfun my playstyle can be.
Run an Araumi deck if you like recursion. Really great at sticking the game and its got some crazy value, and she's really resistant to countermagic. Removal on your commander sucks but that's most commanders
I do agree on most of these for sure! I have to let the table know that I am playing Yuriko STRICKLY NINJAS NO EXTRA TURN SPELLS or the table will hate me out lol. Anything focused on extra turns, or consistently blowing up the board (looking at you Child Of Alara) is not fun to play against. I do have near cEDH decks, but thats why rule 0 is a thing. LOVE you guys as always!
Doomsday yuriko > extra turns yuriko and i will die on this hill Apparently so will most of cedh They run 1 extra turns spell at most as a backup if the many deckout combos fail
I have a Kenrith reanimator/aristocrats deck. Dump high mana value creatures into grave from hand, get them onto the battlefield for 5 (or cheaper) which is cheaper than their og cost, get etb effects, sacrifice them, repeat. It's a lot of fun.
Tymna x Thrasios is genuinely the most boring thing on earth, literal white bread. So many people seem to play it too, I simply decline to go against them.
I have a Korvold deck, but the turns definitely don't take long especially compared to extra turn commanders and strategies that involve searching more often than you draw. The lines are clear and their variety of play patterns is is still quite good. I rarely recycle things out of the graveyard unless I'm planning to win with it or gain value with land drops. I don't even run repeatable sac outlets (unless you include food chain) or mayhem devil. Win with commander damage, go with several infinite mana and card draw options, and control the field with all the sacrifice enchantments that you might also see a lot in Muldrotha decks. It's really quite straight forward. In the end, I tend to have 3-8 permanents in play at a time as I sacrifice my lands so often. My biggest weakness is Gilded Drake and partly Blood moon affects which is not all that hard to remove anyway, so it is what it is.
I play with a pretty high powered playgroup, not Cedh but still really powerful decks. I just recently took apart my Zacama deck because she was dominating every game. I love her mind you but I also really like having fun games with my group. On the upside I was able to use some cards from Zacama to remake my Ur-Dragon deck and it's right where I want it to be powerlevel wise.
I played against 2 people who used the new nijutsu commander that gives everything ninjutsu 4. 4 times, without missing a beat, I was blightsteeled out of the game by these two in 4 separate games. Korvold also became ridiculously strong with bootleggers stash from the brand new set.
I have a Satoru deck and purposefully decided to not put eldrazi/blightsteel/other insane cards in there. I mean, we play magic to have fun right? I've never played competitive commander so there's no need for a turn four unblockable blightsteel lol.
So I'd like to put in some context for Koma as I made a pretty nasty Koma deck when he came out, just like Urza, he can control Orbs, not as well as Urza because he produces mana with it too and you have to sac a coil, but on the other side of that coin, you can also sac coils to also tap down whatever they were able to untap on their upkeep so they don't have access to resources anyway, pair that with ways to copy Koma and ways to increase the amount of tokens you make, you have access to the best creature based draw spells in the game, ramp to get him out unnecessarily early, a way to protect himself from most removal, and counter magic for anything else, Koma ran away with games against even combo decks because nobody could do anything. Eventually my Koma deck got soft banned from tables at my LGS because people would just get up and go somewhere else if I got him out
Magda needs to be on this list. One player in our play group has a mean Magda deck that abuses changelings to get the entire deck out on turn 4, including blightsteel and swift foot boots.
So happy that Tergrid was out of the way first bc I think that is THE first salt commander that comes to mind. I was wondering if Baral was going to come up bc I never faced one, and sure enough, there he is! Keep up the great work you nerds
The Narset deck in my high-power group is the reason I run Shadowspear in my Magda deck. If I can't kill it right this second, I can make it so somebody else can.
I built Negan a few months back (yes, I like the TWD) and the 2 playgroups I play with absolutely HATE him. Was so surprising. I've looked online and I basically run the same deck as Prosper, except all exile spells are replaced with sacrifice, resurrection and blink spells. U get Negan out, wipe the board, generate heaps of treasure and then everyone is too scared to be the first one to cast creatures again cos they'll usually just be made to sac them again. Gets around hexproof and indestructible too. Proper nasty but u gotta build it to see what I mean. Negan makes people look at their phone while ur having ur turn.
I think the big reason Koma gets more hate and I to put it above Toxrill and Zacama is its inherent self protection, you can't stop it from coming onto the battlefield and if it makes it to the next upkeep there is usually doubling season or other extra token generators that make more serpents and from then it's counters abilities and turning indestructible if you try to outright remove it half the tume. If Koma didn't have the built in protection as well as being Simic, Toxrill and possibly Zacama would be placed ahead of it.
I love my Edgar Markov deck, but I only like to play him when I know my opponents can handle him. This is why I upgraded the Crimson Vow vampire precon commander strefan, maurer progenitor. So that I can still play my favorite tribe without being too powerful, and has a different playstyle thanks to Blood tokens.
I don´t understand the hate. The typical UGX value piles can run circles around Edgar. If your pod complains about vampire tribal of all things, then you need a different group. Unless the people you play with like to play really chill decks.
@@jambostringo Me neither, but I do play with people who have decks that are definitely lower in power level. At the same time, it really isn’t that hard to beat a Edgar Markov deck.
Ironically, I run Windgrace IN my Alara deck (which is basically a board wipe in the Command Zone.. 🙄) It's a Lands/Maze's End deck though, and I don't play it against most people unless they're fine with it (since a lot of people might not find that fun.) I like how having the board wipe in the Command Zone slows the game down and adds more politics to the game (instead of everyone just going from 0 to 60 off the bat,) it changes the way the game plays (though it could paint a target on your back too.)
If you play koma or aesi proxy a living plane into your deck then whelming wave all lands and creatures back to hand that aren't Serpents, leviathan, octopus, Kraken etc. If you have koma or aesi on board you pretty much win.
Joe Cherries with that Dunkey Merch! Love when my favorite content creators enjoy my favorite content creators of another hobby! Also I'm about to start watching the video and I hope Aesi is in there
I actually really like Tergrid (Tergie, affectionately) as a card in the 99 as a way to shut down fetch players or Aristocrats BS. As a commander she’s nuts, but without being built around she’s totally fine.
Yeah, as a card in the 99 she is fair and really cool. I think right now the only issue with Tergrid is that people randomly don't think of her as a near cEDH level commander and bring her to random tables. That card as a commander should only really play against cEDH decks or other quasi-cEDH level decks.
@@walris44 tergrid is ASS at the near cedh/cedh level Like she cant even compete with yawgmoth and k'rrik. How the hell is she supposed to compete with urza, jhoira, zur, literally any naya deck
I see lots of commanders in this list which don't have to be hated. We had a Narseth player who didn't have any extra turn effect at all, he just used it to cast planeswalkers as in essence his deck was a planeswalker EDH deck. I played Zur without all the stax effects and just used it to bring online all kinds of enchantment creatures etc etc.
Also the enchant land aura enchantress build of the Estrid, planeswalker deck can have crazy big turns. Notable cards are earthcraft, squirrel nest, sunken field, doubling season.
I just played my first game with my new Geist of Saint Traft deck. It didn't take long for the baked in Hexproof on a commander to get on the other players' nerves as I turned him into an unblockable, flying, lifelink, protection from creatures, double strike 5/5...and there was more to come. If your play group hasn't experienced a hexproof commander, I recommend you try it. Your friends will love you forever.
Absolutely right my fellow nerds. Obviously powerful cards were designed to play but commander is a format that is less competitive and more fun. It’s always a great idea to communicate with your play group before you play these cards so that you have a play group at the end of the day!
Ι used to have a Zacama deck. It was a powerful control deck, with many removals, CA engines and yes, even counters. Didn't even had to play infinites on it, Zacama killed the moment it came in play, usually with Slayer's Stronghold and Sunhome, Fortress of the Legion. My opponents didnt even bother to play anything while Zacama was in play and the whole game was basically a ticking clock until t5-6 where Zacama hits the field and the game was over. The only way to beat it was killing me before Zacama came into play, and this was happening very rarely. It was far too oppressive and I took it down. 2 weeks ago I built a Toxril deck and this was EXACTLY what it felt like. The game being a ticking clock until Toxril came into play. It doesnt even have to be optimized or have your deck having any synergy with Toxril! When Toxril entered play, the game was over. So yes, I think this video was TOO spot on on this matter.
i routinely abjure removal targeting Yuriko and sac her to counter that kill spell just to show people how little i care if yuriko dies. it's a fun way to flex on your pod.
My friend's main deck is a Derevi deck. I didn't even know it was a hated commander since he plays it as a blink deck. As such, it is fun to play against his Derevi deck, so I guess that says a lot about him
I think another important note for Toxrill after playing it for a little while. It also clears indestructible, protected from, and shroud/hexproof creatures from the table in a cycle or two of turns.
Didn’t even think about that!
And with the kormus bell u practically instawin the game
@@Controlqueen31 well, Kormus Bell and Yawgmoth's Tomb
@@Controlqueen31 so an 11 mana 3 card combo. I think that’s fair tbh.
Okay but is your toxril deck a 5000 dollar optimum deck or is it janky and thrown together? Hes fun but he really isnt that amazing unless you have all the right shit and even then. It instantly becomes a 3v1. I've seen decks that can if they have optimum starting hand win THE FIRST TURN. 5th turn wins are also common. He really ain't that bad in the grand scheme of things
Tergrid, the only commander that also sometimes disguises herself as an unassuming little skeleton rogue.
Tergrid is.. disgusting.. and i love to play her
… low key exactly how I run it
I was shocked that tiny bones didn't make this list.
I haaaaate tergrid
Tiny Bones and put Turdgrid in the 99.
"Is today a day? Well here's content!"
- my favorite nerds, every damn day
Everyday baby!
Another lunch, which is conveniently every day. Another nitpicking nerds video right on time. Life is good.
I am guilty of the same pattern. Love these nerds
same here!!!
Yeah try red tcg off were you guys there it
@@supabull8861 9u0
A couple interesting trends I noticed: commander tax evasion, commanders that singlehandedly control the board state, stax-style or resource denying commanders, and OP "goodstuff" commanders are the most prevalent. Most likely because people don't like playing against someone who has/is perceived to have an unfair advantage... who would've guessed?
Tax Evasion is my favorite though.. wait, that sounds sus.
Most of all resource denial. People will still do something awesome when opponent will do something awesomer. When they can't play cards, why are they even there?
In a lot of my pods Koma's ability to shut down activated abilities cripples their decks because their commander often has one
when i play koma i let people know i will not be using that ability, and it's not because i'd feel bad, but because i'm a crappy counterspell player where i don't realize what is a threat or when it should be dealt with.
@@Fausto_4841 That's tragic, Koma's ability lockdown is the most interesting part of the card. :( The rest is just "Bigger Verdant Force"
Yes i have a Koma deck and when you build your deck good. With a lot of counterspells and ramp Koma is very hard to remove. I also have a Zacama deck and in my opinion zacama is definitely weaker than Koma. I would say koma and Toxrill have more ore less the same Power.
Seriously tho. Trying to play obeka against Koma is just bad
Best thing I've seen with a Koma deck was when they paired it with a copy of Sakashima and Sakashima student and just made an Asston of Koma Coil tokens and would use the other two Komas to tap down anything that tried to counter em
Shoutout to Azami, Lady of Scrolls. Back in the day, she was one of the most hated commanders in my circle. Since then, a lot more hated cards have taken the attention off of her, but she still sneaks in from time to time with a ruthless card advantage that nobody wants to deal with. Every great counterspell in my 30 card+ hand? No thanks.
She is a big old buly!
Heh, I run Azami basically as 'wizards with activated abilities tribal,' so I don't run a stupid number of 'true' counterspells (75ish% of my removal is on creatures). However, that does mean I run literally every wizard that includes the word 'counter.' The game plan is: let me combo off with Thoracle or I counter every card you play, repeatedly (thanks Ertai, patron wizard, etc). Let me win, or we both lose. I could see how that's salt inducing.
in a 1v1 my azami normally wins at turn 4-5. the other person most of the time knows, that its basically over. mind over matter, laboratory maniac, the new blue mermaid, jace, you have so many win cons. i used to run 2-3 tribal buffs to even smack people with huge wizards but i turned into a full control, cheap good wizards tribal with a few counterspells and its a force to be reckoned. on most multiplayer tables everyone else is just like: „lets take out the blue guy before we even start to play“ so i rarely get it out. and i can understand because its the most reasonable thing u can do when theres a deck that can combo off in turn 5-7 and just instantly win the game or shut down the whole table.
Lord Windgrace is such a good value engine, I totally underestimated him when he was spoiled, but having played with him now maybe 5 times I think the card is super awesome... I didn't even realize people were playing land destruction with Lord Windgrace lol I was so surprised when he popped up on screen
As the tergrid player that kept the narset player down cause they only had one creature, it's a pretty good match up for tergrid. 10+ mana for Narset makes her seem more balanced
Bully! Lol
Hey buddy... could you send me the deck list lol
Tergrid player here as well. Sometimes it’s fun to be the mean person. Plus I have a person who plays a Markov deck and a sliver cascade food chain deck.
I feel like not naming Grand Arbiter Augustin is a missed opportunity. Btw, the new double matte sleeves are *chef's kiss*
Yea they are!
Im surprised too
I run Grand Arbiter and everyone hated me. So I switched to Medomai the Ageless and put Lighthous Chronologist back in my deck... Not 1 person complained when I went back to Grand Arbiter the following game 😅
@@Kurayamiblack idk, I've played against someone playing armageddon after the most misleading rule 0 talk. Made it sound like the deck wasn't hot poop, but it was. T1, fast mana, t2 arbiter, t3 armageddon.
At least it was already in t3, and not later :D
So Beezy name drops me, and here I am. As if Urza didn't do enough broken things, he lets you tap me for mana!
LOL And what are the current prices on Wayfarer Bauble? ;p
@@mr.mammuthusafricanavus8299 nowadays, between 50-75 cents for reprints and $1-2 for the 5th Dawn copy.
As it should be.
Only just noticed I was not subbed. Pretty crazy since I watch you sometimes for over a year. I love commander stats & tier lists so I love your content. Keep it up!
Thanks a bunch we appreciate you!
I almost was able to breathe a sigh of relief to be able to say I don't run any of these, then the Eldrazi titans showed up. I'm currently hanging my head in shame.
No shame 😂
Me too. I had an kozilek oops-all-eldrazi deck. Then they printed Golos and I said "this is the way". What kind of deck do you use now.
I had the same reaction :D
I built Derevi. I would enchant my lands and have unblockable creatures to make large amounts of mana. And had lots of mana sinks for thr mana the deck is sick
A friend of mine recently started playing EDH with us, coming from Legacy. First deck he built: Urza (with the orbs). Second deck: Darevi (also with stax), and now he's building Zur... :'D
Im sorry for your loss, but you are not alone I have a similar friend in a group
Meanwhile i run infinite combo urza, infinite combo yuriko, jhoira storm, alela doomsday
Sounds amazing. No, I actually mean it :D I'm of the firm opinion that playing stax is like adding much needed salt to the goldfishing turbo deck soup. Makes games more interesting, to me. But I'm also the kind of person who doesn't add blue to every single of his EDH decks..
Sounds absolutely boring when every deck is the same.
@@jonasdietrich8109 which is why I hate cEDH. All Thoracle combos, glass cannons, and Stax decks. Sounds like Vintage.
The moment you realize you have at least 5 of the commanders on this list… am I the problem haha 😅
Five is not so much. I too have five: Tatyova, Kenrith, Korvold, Baral and Kozilek (the cheap, new one). But I use Baral in the 99 of Talrand, and my Kozilek deck doesn't have the other 4 Eldrazi legendaries (which I currently can't afford).
But my Tatyova and Korvold decks do have the long turns they say.
It's curious they didn't mention Jhoira (the new one). That one has the looongest turns ever. I know. I use her. I play it with my wife. My wife hates me... :-P
I have najeela warrior queen... Worst card in the format
For real, as soon as I saw the title I new my Narset deck would make the list
Yes you are.
Yes. 100%
I built Kenrith with Zirda as the companion. So every nonland permanent in the deck has an activated ability. It severely cripples how strong you can make the deck, I even have training grounds and every other reducer so I COULD make it incredibly nasty, but I really wanted to make Zirda the companion and try to make the best Kenrith deck I could with that restriction and despite that it's honestly pretty good. It's probably at right around an 8/10. If I built it optimized it would be vastly different though and half the deck would be wildly different. I have Korvald as goblin tribal, and it can be fast, but it can also quite easily stumble and just never get enough gas to become a threat. I play in a highly competitive casual group, we don't have cedh pieces really, a couple of the smaller ones like flusterstorm and force of negation, but no vaults or crypts.
Training grounds has no activated ability but is a permanent. So how is it in your deck?
@@minu2910 It's not. You misread what I said. I said I COULD make it much meaner using every cost reducer and more broken creatures, but I didn't, I limited myself instead to stay within the parameters for the companion.
@@stfinalwrath Yeah. You saying that you had them led me to think that you had them as part of the deck, not your collection.
@@stfinalwrath I've thought about this deck for awhile. If you want to put an interesting twist on it consider adding Lazav, the Multifarious into it as a hidden commander. The deck already is leaning in the direction of creature ability combos so he's a great form of redundancy. Quicksilver elemental is similar. That lets you work with niche subthemes like all the Figure of Destiny variants or level up creatures which is super cool if you want to keep it lower in power.
I have this deck myself but focused on cycling and reanimation. It can win games, but it's slow to get going.
This list is basically “Most Played Commanders” video again - too funny haha.
It was a glorious day when I Narset’s Reversal’d the Narset players time stretch and beat him with commander damage before he could take his other extra turns.
Surprised I didn’t see Atraxa, Praetors Voice in here. My friend has a super friends deck and I don’t think I’ve ever been more frustrated
but that is an archetypally good commander deck, not hateful.
In my playgroup there was a guy that only played Tergrid in response I would only play Codie a deck with almost no permanents. I beat his deck about 30 games in a row and then he stopped coming.
Perfect answer to annoying people, Codie FTW
Thank you, NN for making me reconsider using Koma and Toxrill for my Simic and Dimir color pairs. I almost made a horrible mistake. I instead opted for Grolnok and Runo, respectively (and respectfully to my playgroup). I am still building Windgrace, but I am not pairing him with board wipe or mass land destruction. And I do NOT run the infinite with my Niv Parun deck.
Parun is more fun without it. I still love the deck, it can still win but it is a harder puzzle. Also sometimes I just deck myself and lose 😂 which I’m trying to avoid but it’s honestly been funny every time
You guys are absolutely AMAZING. Amazing content, but honestly it’s your personalities and game knowledge. Y’all please subscribe and support!!! These guys are the absolute BEST MTG channel! Peace and taco grease!
Thanks so much, that’s the nicest comment ever!!
Having played against Godo way too often, let's see if he makes the list. Tutors on commanders are inherently stupid.
The cEDH deck just races to 11 mama for helm combo. The regular EDH version always tutors out Sword of hearth and home, followed by Hammer of Nazahn.
That cEDH Godo can end the game opening turn with just the right draw. Turn 2 is almost easy
Eh.. No tutors it's what's truly stupid. "I belive in the heart of the cards!" 😂 Top deck topkek
I love that joe broke beezy with that “land in the hand” bit lmao
This channel has a very consistent 90-92% of viewers being slower on the like-button, than a 10CMC monored creature drop.
Yeah!
When I first played the precon Aesi deck, I used Spitting Image to make three of it, playing 4 lands and drawing 12 cards a turn. Literally started running out of things to use mana for. Fun.
how are you making the copies stick? Aesi is legendary, so copying it would just have you put either the copies or the original into the graveyard because of the legend rule.
@@MrAlathiel Left out the detail that someone else had a Mirror Gallery out. Mb.
@@TheIrrelevantYT ah yes makes sense. I just remember when I first started playing, I didnt know about the legend rule, so when I had the opportunity to copy something for once I was very sad when I was informed how it worked lol
Toxril, sluge monster combo is really the nail. It's one thing to kill everything, it's another to take away all abilities.
aesi was my first commander and still one of my favorite commander decks lol but i do wanna turn it into a glint eye lands deck eventually lol
We've learned how to deal with both Tergrid and Toxrill (played by the same person in our group): Everyone gangs up on him and stomps him into the ground, ignoring his complaints about 'unfairness'.
I feel you forgot the partners. Kodama, tymna, thrasios and sakashima all have that “why wouldn’t I play this as my partner” effect. As a result a lot of decks are more powerful and non inspired. Also because of them WOTC is limited with future design.
Further I don’t mind the slug. We all know 7 mana in non green decks is a lot different and with the power creep (especially on creatures) is more than fair.
I built a krark the thumbless//Sakashima deck and disassembled it a couple weeks later because of sheer degeneracy. Looked fun and goofy on the surface- in play it was a nightmare for anyone to deal with and just watch me flip a coin for 10 minutes
@@FreeAtlas. yeah played against one who had that with fierce guardianship it. Together with veyran on the battlefield. It was a 99% chance non creature lock
@@FreeAtlas. I raise you Vial Smasher//Sakashima. "Miracle Temporal Mastery, 2 people take 7. Clone, Extra turn. Dig through time, 3 people take 10, oh look, I drew an extra turn spell."
Utterly degenerate if VS and/or Sakashima aren't instantly removed.
the reason for aesi's insane land draw is that reap the tides has a lot of expensive leviathan cards
I'm surprised about Yuriko, in my experience, if she does the thing, the game is over fast and you just get to play a new game and this time without Yuriko if people don't want that kind of game again (I can see it get annoying if you have a player in your group who will play nothing else, but I think that goes for most commanders)
It's inherently non-interactive for that reason. Play all the games you want, it generally ends in 3-4 turns.
My brother plays her and more or less exclusively these last months. It dodges most of my hate pieces and removal and it's as annoying as it is effective. But yes, it's definitely not a deck that draws out games. With all that extra draw power, rather sooner than later he always finds his Thoracle+Consultation and it's over. Also definitely not unbeatable.
I play my Grand Arbiter deck and go to stacks and hate for those decks that single out a player and make them unable to play the game when they play those decks. I will let them play it once and get a game out of it and then I go that route unless they get on a commander that allows for the group to play fun games with giant haymakers. Humility on T2or several counters in that heavily run deck with overwhelming splendor attached to them makes all their ninjutsu worthless since they come in and are attacking 1/1 without abilities.
What people often get wrong about Winter Orb is thinking the effect is symmetrical. Winter Orb and Howling Mine are the only 2 artifacts that still follow the old fashioned "Mono Artifacts only work when tapped" rule. They're literally still treated as Mono Artifacts.
This means if you tap Winter Orb then end your turn it will only effect your opponents, not you. It will untap as usual and you can use all of your lands.
To be fair to Koma, they're also more than capable of turning off a combo piece in your upkeep
Koma in my opinion is one of those very well designed cards, but hated cards because it's so good at what it's designed for which is to stop plays on board. It's so powerful in the hands of a skilled player.
Great video, i think joey C is underestimating the sheer backbreaking nature of koma, tapping down lands, important mana rocks, or strip commanders of their abilities is huge. Its better in the 99 for commander though.
I'm so glad I ended up not building tergrid. Seemed fun to play as until I considered what the opponents would be able to do. Just doesn't seem like a good time for either side lol
Yeah it never is
At the local game store we commonly have a pod where we have 3 super powerful decks. Toxrill (me), Umbris, and Tergrid. The Toxrill and Umbris decks all have exile effects and hard negates Tergrid.
I overcame Tergrid by immediately focusing on that player with my Atraxa infect deck. Tergrid got cast once, and not enough mana to do any discard spells or wheel-like effects. And on my turn the counter hit 10. And then Tergrid was no longer a problem.
Fighting toxicity with even more toxicity
@@ConstanceMists Infect isn't toxic; it's the balance to lifegain.
@@BAAWAKnight ive never seen someone lose to infect and not feel bad about it. Setting ur life to 10 in a 40 life format is just cheese. But thats the game. And while it does balance life gain that doesnt mean both arent toxic (infect and mass life gain) for most pods
@@ConstanceMists Having to do ALL THE WORK as an infect player CLEARLY balances it all out. While you all are beating each other's life totals or milling or just being a boring, pedestrian person who plays the ConsOracle combo: I have to do it all by myself. It's a challenge, and people overestimate infect's efficacy.
“A new video every day until you die”
Bold of you to assume I’m not immortal.
Maybe I’ve taken that into consideration 👀
The reason Koma is so hated is because an optimal Koma deck runs all the token doublers it can and then just taps all of your mana down every turn. Because that tap ability is any permanent, not just creatures. So even if you GET your removal, you probably won't have the opportunity to USE it.
cant you tap your lands in response to them trying to tap them? Sorry if this is a dumb question, im kinda new to this game
@@Sean.Thomas2 You can, yes, but if it's during your upkeep then there's basically nothing you can do with the mana.
@@Sean.Thomas2 you can. But you lose your mana as phases passes. So what they do, is tap your mana at the beginning of your turn right after the untap step but before your main phase. When you enter your main phase you lose all the mana you floated, making you unable cast most of your cards. So if you have an instant, a card with flash or a permanent with an activated ability you can use the mana Koma is trying to tap, if not than you basically cant.
Junk Winder is so good in this deck
The problem with Toxrill I noticed after playing against it a lot is that, even outside of creature decks, most decks in general just require creatures at some point.
You really only have two options against the slug. 1) play creature-less combo or 2) remove it instantly. However, with these answers you develop new problems where the games become too high power or the Toxrill player gets hated out.
The best answer my pod found was to just not play the commander because no one involved had fun
I would like to see a video of the most fun commanders to play against.
Me too :)
I have this one friend who always complains. When he doesn't get enough lands, he complains about not having any mana. If he gets too many lands then he complains about not having creatures. So, I decide to build him an Aesi deck with a bunch if ramp so if he gets too little lands, he can get more, and if he gets too many, he can play Aesi for card draw. I was hoping that he wouldn't complain, but now he complains that games take too long.
I’m surprised to not see the giant board wipe on a stick, Child of Alara.
Since they changed the rule re: commanders dying, you no longer need to shell out for a Volrath’s Stronghold to recur it.
I have a gaddock teeg deck, and it's a testament to my playgroup that they keep letting me play with them.
Najeela, the blade blossom is well deserving of this list. Card gets more nuts the more you read it and realize it needs no warriors to actually be in the deck to go infinite
I have a A Kenrith tokens deck that has both Toxrill and Koma along with almost all of the "At the beginning of each upkeep" and "At the beginning of each end step" cards in it. The deck is Affectionately named "Triggered" due to all the triggers on each turn.
Wait, how did Kinnan not make the list? If I could remove one card from the format immediately, it'd be very clear where my vote was cast.
I went into the comments looking for this. Kinnan is a powerhouse.
Fynn the Fangbearer.
He's dirt cheap to bring out. (He only costs 2)
He's green, so if he's bolted, you can bring him back easy.
Just five hits from either him or anything with Deathtouch while he's on the field is all you need to end the game.
Even if you only get him to hit once, all you gotta do is proliferate enough times without getting hit which is easy since your deck not only consists of cards with Proliferate but also Deathtouch fodder to keep everyone else at bay.
As an Aesi player, I’ve actively tried to speed up my play to avoid that stigma of “your turns take too long.” That, and about 5-7 finishers to close games as quickly as possible.
A friend reintroduced to playing Magic and introduced me to Commander by letting me play his incredibly strong Zakama deck. This was like 6-7 years ago, 9 own decks and a lot of hours of enjoyment later I still remember this very first game... ah and the second was with his Edgar Markov deck. With my friends guidance I won both matches cause they were just so stupidly strong as well as entertaining.
The video brought back some memories!
Bant and Esper is therefore the default deck with the most hated cards. 2 brawl commanders and 2 jund precons are just op.
Btw, derevi vs yuriko, which is the stronger tax evasion commander?
Yuriko
Shes a unbelievably strong farm/pivot commander
Kind of pleasantly surprised that I don’t have any of these commanders. Was tempted to run tergrid at one point but decided against since I found a commander that fit the deck better.
My favorite example of a fun but powerful commander is Darien, king of kjeldor who makes tokens equal to damage you take, combined with white normally having cards that give life when a creature enters the battlefield, it creates a pseudo-invincibility, the deck needs solid protection since he’s the lynchpin for the whole deck but it allows both you and other players to play in a fun way. Unlike some of these cards that deny a player to do anything except scoop or pass turn.
Everyone loves seeing a turn 2 draco hit with yuriko then turn 3 and 4 brainstorm or scroll rack it back ontop
The one deck I have that my buddy hates playing against is Sythis. The reason why isn't the commander herself, but many of the tax and stax pieces around it that just happen to be good enchantments on their own. It plays stuff like Stony Silence and Suppression Field to slow this my opponents might do down while not really affecting me. There's the Ghostly Prison and Sphere of Safety to reduce our cancel people attacking me. Then, it runs a boatload of enchantment based removal from more hard removal like O Ring to softer removal that is sometimes worse like Kenrith's Transformation.
So can someone explain the "this deck isn't fun because it does the same thing each game" complaint to me? I see a lot of people say it, but to my understanding that's something most decks do.
I thought it might be a power level complaint, but even on lower power decks this argument seems like it would apply. Like your merfolk wins the same way each game! You play merfolk and turn them sideways. You always wait until you have a lord with island walk and then you spreading seas my land to one shot me!
I'm assuming I'm misunderstanding the complaint/argument and would love to learn what part of the similar game plan each game is the frustrating part.
I see your point, and I'm usually down for any style of game so I usually don't care as much, but here it is from my perspective.
If I am playing multiple games in a 6-8 power range, and one player is playing the same deck and using tutors or other effects to get the same 2 or 3 card combo and win, it kinda bothers me as it says: "everything that has happened upto this point in the game has been meaningless".
If the power level is higher than 8, then I'm expecting quick, efficient, repetitive combos, so it doesn't bother me, but that's just my take on it.
It just makes the game seem repetitive or boring
For me it isn't an issue of fun as opposed to "gets stale or boring" coz deck plays same every time. Some like that consistency though, so to each his or her own.
It's kind of easier to see than describe: or in other words, you know it when you see it. But I'll try.
Your example of merfolk is not really the same thing, because it's a lot more vague. First off, who is your Commander? You can get them in any color. In context, a merfolk tribal deck probably wants to win through combat, but even that tends to be a lot more varied. How wide are you going? Are you going tall? Are you stacking lords? Do you have a secondary win con such as mill? There are a lot of choices.
Compare this to the average Jhoira, Narset or Tergrid deck. You cast the Commander, you do the thing, or you fizzle. That's not to say you can't build them in a janky way, but generally people aren't building them that way. If Joe Random sits down and pulls out Jhoira, I have an exact assumption as to what he's doing: cost reduction, drop a million artifacts in a turn, storm off. If that same guy had Sygg, River Cutthroat, I don't necessarily know what he's doing as there are a lot of ways to satisfy his trigger.
Tutors tend to exacerbate the problem, which is why some people cut them. If I cast Vampiric Tutor on turn 1, 2 or 3, I'm probably just grabbing Necropotence. Otherwise I'm grabbing whatever part of a combo I'm missing. The result is a very same-y game due to consistency: your play pattern tends not to vary much.
I've actually adjusted or taken decks apart for that exact reason. I had a pretty good Breya deck, but it was always Infinite Combo A, Infinite Combo B, or Infinite Combo C, because that's more or less the optimum way of building her. I built Brudiclad instead and it's way more fun to me: I know I'm making tokens, but I don't know what I'm making tokens of, or how many I'm making. As a result, the games feel different. Hope this helps.
Well the issue is more of the deck as an extreme amount of Repetition and all the effects and cards lead to the deck doing the same things every game. Aesi is one of the biggest offender because it land, draw and ramp until it finds whatever wincon it has. 😊
Played once against a friend with Chulane (Historic Brawl, not commander). He managed to play THE ENTIRE DECK by turn 6. At that point, I wasn't even mad, that was amazing
Yuriko may be the worst designed magic card of all time, she even makes vintage ninjas playable
She is is fine in vintage I think
Fringe playable lol.
Maze of Ith and the Yuriko player does nothing all game
@@NotSoSerious69420 fringe playable in a Power 9 format is way too strong for anything else. To put it in perspective, Legacy is closer to Modern than Vintage in terms of power, so anything lurking there is dangerous af.
@@juliofranciscogomezstoppel1860 Eh, Dack Fayden is vintage playable and not too strong everywhere else, too strong for some formats sure, but definitely not too strong for commander. I'm sure there are other cards like that
funnily enough, I had the lord windgrace precon, and I never thought to put mass land destruction in it, sure I had world breaker and strip mine, but I never ran mass land destruction. Never realised it was a hated commander.
I feel like Korvold would be much closer to a fun commander if it was just BR and not G too.
My only issue with the deck is when they run stuff like dictate and Grace pact with it. Which they always do.
My friend is building one and also adding in Tegrid and it that betrays. So he’s really just trying to see how fast he can be removed as a player the moment he sits down
They wanted him to be green for the food theme.
Back in 95' Winter Orb was my favorite card and I had a Blue and White hard lock down deck that I won a type 2 Tournament. I've never played it in commander though. It's a good way to get hated off the table.
surprised not to see Grand Arbiter not make it
Me too. That card is a design mistake on par with Winter Orb.
I actively refuse to play against Grand Arbiter, and Urza. Nobody likes not being able to play a game they spent a good amount of cash on, and want to play. Stax was a mistake.
@@nickhughes8179 Let's cut winter orb some slack in the design department considering it was one of the original cards for the game.
I'm also not certain that stax is a mistake. Certainly the cards arent much fun to play against but there are also games that arent strictly casual. cEDH tends to see quite a few different stax pieces and effects thrown around to slow or stop other players from doing their thing, modern had lantern control as a thing and there have been various stax decks around since at least the original stasis deck that was cooked up in 96 to counter necro decks.
@@isaoblack987 I remember my friend having a particularly horrific Black and Artifact Stax 60 card deck throughout the 2000s. Contamination, Tangle Wire, Winter Orb, Static Orb, Icy Manipulator, Voltaic Key, Smokestack, No Mercy, Grave Pact, Hecatomb, Death Pits of Rath, plenty of ramp, and Sengir Autocrat for token generation, Animate Dead, Living Death, Haunted Crossroads, and Volrath's Stronghold for graveyard recursion, and Delraich for an early 6/6 Trampler to feed Autocrat tokens to. I stopped playing for a near year, because it didn't let me play at all so I figured "Whats the point?" That sentiment for me never changed as I saw the archetype progress and get some really broken cards.
I saw him get a time Vault in 2006, and then create an artifact stax deck that could establish either a turn 1 infinite turn combo, or permanent Stax lock. I eventually just refused to play it, because why play when you don't even get a turn.
@@nickhughes8179 Quite a few of the older, competitive control decks made people feel that way. I think the game lost a ton of potential players over the years because of it. On the other hand - being something of a control player myself - there is a particular thrill of seeing people just give up.
@@isaoblack987 I used to play (Esper and Jeskai mostly, Grixis on occasion) control in standard from 2012-2015.
I liked running cards people normally wouldn't look at because of netdecking philosophy (something I feel has homogenized gameplay and puts focus on specific cards which then spike in price from demand, which likely contributed to loss of players). Who runs Warped Physique?? I do, because my deck often has 4 or 5 cards in hand, and it kills Indestructible Gods. Who runs Counterflux?? Me, because the meta I play in has several other control players, and it wins counter wars. Who runs Stensia Bloodhall?? Well, my control deck is light on wincons, I'm not dropping $40 each for a playset of chase rares, land removal isn't used, and it can slowly burn an opponent out. Why not cut that 1 Izzet Charm for a 4th Think Twice?? Well, Charm gives me options, an extra counter, or an extra Shock, or extra card filtering, Think Twice is a double cantrip and 3 is enough.
I'm often questioned (sometimes derisively), about the cards I choose to run.
I love videos like these. Gives me a solid of commanders to play. "The most hated" means also "most fun to play with"
I disagree with koma and toxrill, they should be swapping places. Koma is utterly miserable to play against because the thing can interact with things outside of freaking creatures. You can use koma to basically grant protection from counters by tapping lands down the allowing the phase to end so the mana goes away. It also fucks with combos and is night unkillable.
Besides its in green so you can see this abomination with much more consistency than the slug guys that is just dimir that sucks and swallows at ramping.
Koma is god teir in 1v1 vs 3 or 5 more players not super good, toxrill gives slimer cooters every turn (not just *your* end step) tho, and they remain on your creatures the whole game, dimir may suck at ramp but its reanimator colors
@@3N3MYKN1GHT Koma also works every turn
Re: Tatyova. There’s someone at the LGS I go to who I sometimes end up in the same pod with. They have the most annoying Tatyova deck. $1500+ with what feels like every counterspell. And the kicker (2)? There’re casual and competitive pods and they just sit in the casual ones. Most of us run
I ask people whenever I play my Tatyova deck what they don't want to see (aside from counterspells, as I only run 4). If they don't want to see extra turns, they come out and I put in some landfall dorks. If they don't want to see infinite combos, they come out and I pop in some card draw instead. Instant wins like Thoracle/Labman? Pop in some Chungus lands matter creatures. I will 100% cater to the table, because I know how unfun my playstyle can be.
@@PotatoGuidanceMissle I play Aesi and I always warn people that I have infinite combos and as if they’re ok with it before I actually play the deck.
Run an Araumi deck if you like recursion. Really great at sticking the game and its got some crazy value, and she's really resistant to countermagic. Removal on your commander sucks but that's most commanders
As a Baral player, I can confirm that I snivel if they don’t play into two untapped islands and I cackle if they do.
I do agree on most of these for sure!
I have to let the table know that I am playing Yuriko STRICKLY NINJAS NO EXTRA TURN SPELLS or the table will hate me out lol.
Anything focused on extra turns, or consistently blowing up the board (looking at you Child Of Alara) is not fun to play against. I do have near cEDH decks, but thats why rule 0 is a thing.
LOVE you guys as always!
But how could I play my "You're a Time Lord, Narset"-deck without my extra turn spells ? SMH
@@Nr4747 I mean you can and that's fine! But I don't want to sit and watch you play magic lol
Doomsday yuriko > extra turns yuriko and i will die on this hill
Apparently so will most of cedh
They run 1 extra turns spell at most as a backup if the many deckout combos fail
I don't feel Toxrill is that bad. She's a 7 drop with no evasion in dimir. Yeah her abilities are stupid, but I feel she gets removed immediately.
That's true, however, if she sticks around, welp, nobody can keep a creature on board while the Toxrill player is gaining card advantage.
Also of note, since alot of people appear to be missing this, shes an infinite mana outlet aswell.
@@spudster8887 I fail to see how, seeing as you'll eventually run out of things to sac.
@@evanczthehunter57 Toxrill can sac itself to itself
@@spudster8887 ......Oh.
I have a Kenrith reanimator/aristocrats deck.
Dump high mana value creatures into grave from hand, get them onto the battlefield for 5 (or cheaper) which is cheaper than their og cost, get etb effects, sacrifice them, repeat.
It's a lot of fun.
i woulda said thrasios and x
playing against and even watching em being played, i find it so boring
Agreed completely!
Tymna x Thrasios is genuinely the most boring thing on earth, literal white bread. So many people seem to play it too, I simply decline to go against them.
I have a Korvold deck, but the turns definitely don't take long especially compared to extra turn commanders and strategies that involve searching more often than you draw. The lines are clear and their variety of play patterns is is still quite good. I rarely recycle things out of the graveyard unless I'm planning to win with it or gain value with land drops. I don't even run repeatable sac outlets (unless you include food chain) or mayhem devil.
Win with commander damage, go with several infinite mana and card draw options, and control the field with all the sacrifice enchantments that you might also see a lot in Muldrotha decks. It's really quite straight forward.
In the end, I tend to have 3-8 permanents in play at a time as I sacrifice my lands so often. My biggest weakness is Gilded Drake and partly Blood moon affects which is not all that hard to remove anyway, so it is what it is.
How do you guys not get burnt out? Thanks for putting out so much content! Also, Tergrid is terrible and should never have been printed.
WAR JOURNAL ENTRY, 12/15/21: Still here, still kickin'. Waiting on that street fighter secret lair. Still hatin' on IT.
I play with a pretty high powered playgroup, not Cedh but still really powerful decks. I just recently took apart my Zacama deck because she was dominating every game. I love her mind you but I also really like having fun games with my group. On the upside I was able to use some cards from Zacama to remake my Ur-Dragon deck and it's right where I want it to be powerlevel wise.
Controlling the board can be rough for other players
Only one of my commanders showed up on this list! While I love my Yuriko deck, I can agree the fact that it gets around commander tax is dumb.
As soon as you guys got to sen triplets, I got the Twizzler’s ad that says “something on your mind?”
I played against 2 people who used the new nijutsu commander that gives everything ninjutsu 4. 4 times, without missing a beat, I was blightsteeled out of the game by these two in 4 separate games.
Korvold also became ridiculously strong with bootleggers stash from the brand new set.
I have a Satoru deck and purposefully decided to not put eldrazi/blightsteel/other insane cards in there. I mean, we play magic to have fun right? I've never played competitive commander so there's no need for a turn four unblockable blightsteel lol.
So I'd like to put in some context for Koma as I made a pretty nasty Koma deck when he came out, just like Urza, he can control Orbs, not as well as Urza because he produces mana with it too and you have to sac a coil, but on the other side of that coin, you can also sac coils to also tap down whatever they were able to untap on their upkeep so they don't have access to resources anyway, pair that with ways to copy Koma and ways to increase the amount of tokens you make, you have access to the best creature based draw spells in the game, ramp to get him out unnecessarily early, a way to protect himself from most removal, and counter magic for anything else, Koma ran away with games against even combo decks because nobody could do anything. Eventually my Koma deck got soft banned from tables at my LGS because people would just get up and go somewhere else if I got him out
Magda needs to be on this list. One player in our play group has a mean Magda deck that abuses changelings to get the entire deck out on turn 4, including blightsteel and swift foot boots.
So happy that Tergrid was out of the way first bc I think that is THE first salt commander that comes to mind. I was wondering if Baral was going to come up bc I never faced one, and sure enough, there he is! Keep up the great work you nerds
She is the saltiest
The Narset deck in my high-power group is the reason I run Shadowspear in my Magda deck. If I can't kill it right this second, I can make it so somebody else can.
I built Negan a few months back (yes, I like the TWD) and the 2 playgroups I play with absolutely HATE him. Was so surprising. I've looked online and I basically run the same deck as Prosper, except all exile spells are replaced with sacrifice, resurrection and blink spells. U get Negan out, wipe the board, generate heaps of treasure and then everyone is too scared to be the first one to cast creatures again cos they'll usually just be made to sac them again. Gets around hexproof and indestructible too.
Proper nasty but u gotta build it to see what I mean. Negan makes people look at their phone while ur having ur turn.
Oh Tergrid? *plays Rest in Peace* ...if I can't have my creature, neither can you. ;)
I think the big reason Koma gets more hate and I to put it above Toxrill and Zacama is its inherent self protection, you can't stop it from coming onto the battlefield and if it makes it to the next upkeep there is usually doubling season or other extra token generators that make more serpents and from then it's counters abilities and turning indestructible if you try to outright remove it half the tume. If Koma didn't have the built in protection as well as being Simic, Toxrill and possibly Zacama would be placed ahead of it.
I love my Edgar Markov deck, but I only like to play him when I know my opponents can handle him. This is why I upgraded the Crimson Vow vampire precon commander strefan, maurer progenitor. So that I can still play my favorite tribe without being too powerful, and has a different playstyle thanks to Blood tokens.
I don´t understand the hate. The typical UGX value piles can run circles around Edgar. If your pod complains about vampire tribal of all things, then you need a different group. Unless the people you play with like to play really chill decks.
@@jambostringo Me neither, but I do play with people who have decks that are definitely lower in power level. At the same time, it really isn’t that hard to beat a Edgar Markov deck.
Ironically, I run Windgrace IN my Alara deck (which is basically a board wipe in the Command Zone.. 🙄) It's a Lands/Maze's End deck though, and I don't play it against most people unless they're fine with it (since a lot of people might not find that fun.) I like how having the board wipe in the Command Zone slows the game down and adds more politics to the game (instead of everyone just going from 0 to 60 off the bat,) it changes the way the game plays (though it could paint a target on your back too.)
If you play koma or aesi proxy a living plane into your deck then whelming wave all lands and creatures back to hand that aren't Serpents, leviathan, octopus, Kraken etc. If you have koma or aesi on board you pretty much win.
Joe Cherries with that Dunkey Merch! Love when my favorite content creators enjoy my favorite content creators of another hobby! Also I'm about to start watching the video and I hope Aesi is in there
Dunkey is also my favorite content creator!
I actually really like Tergrid (Tergie, affectionately) as a card in the 99 as a way to shut down fetch players or Aristocrats BS. As a commander she’s nuts, but without being built around she’s totally fine.
Yeah, as a card in the 99 she is fair and really cool. I think right now the only issue with Tergrid is that people randomly don't think of her as a near cEDH level commander and bring her to random tables. That card as a commander should only really play against cEDH decks or other quasi-cEDH level decks.
@@walris44 tergrid is ASS at the near cedh/cedh level
Like she cant even compete with yawgmoth and k'rrik. How the hell is she supposed to compete with urza, jhoira, zur, literally any naya deck
I’ve played Toxrill against my buddies several times and they usually band together to kill it ASAP 😂
That makes sense
Thanks for giving me ideas for new commanders. The players I like to play with are good enough to get past the “BS” of commander to still try to win.
I see lots of commanders in this list which don't have to be hated. We had a Narseth player who didn't have any extra turn effect at all, he just used it to cast planeswalkers as in essence his deck was a planeswalker EDH deck. I played Zur without all the stax effects and just used it to bring online all kinds of enchantment creatures etc etc.
Also the enchant land aura enchantress build of the Estrid, planeswalker deck can have crazy big turns. Notable cards are earthcraft, squirrel nest, sunken field, doubling season.
I just played my first game with my new Geist of Saint Traft deck. It didn't take long for the baked in Hexproof on a commander to get on the other players' nerves as I turned him into an unblockable, flying, lifelink, protection from creatures, double strike 5/5...and there was more to come. If your play group hasn't experienced a hexproof commander, I recommend you try it. Your friends will love you forever.
Y'all's content is awesome I'm getting so hooked on watching y'all!! Keep up with the great themes
Absolutely right my fellow nerds. Obviously powerful cards were designed to play but commander is a format that is less competitive and more fun. It’s always a great idea to communicate with your play group before you play these cards so that you have a play group at the end of the day!
Ι used to have a Zacama deck. It was a powerful control deck, with many removals, CA engines and yes, even counters. Didn't even had to play infinites on it, Zacama killed the moment it came in play, usually with Slayer's Stronghold and Sunhome, Fortress of the Legion. My opponents didnt even bother to play anything while Zacama was in play and the whole game was basically a ticking clock until t5-6 where Zacama hits the field and the game was over. The only way to beat it was killing me before Zacama came into play, and this was happening very rarely. It was far too oppressive and I took it down. 2 weeks ago I built a Toxril deck and this was EXACTLY what it felt like. The game being a ticking clock until Toxril came into play. It doesnt even have to be optimized or have your deck having any synergy with Toxril! When Toxril entered play, the game was over. So yes, I think this video was TOO spot on on this matter.
i routinely abjure removal targeting Yuriko and sac her to counter that kill spell just to show people how little i care if yuriko dies. it's a fun way to flex on your pod.
My friend's main deck is a Derevi deck. I didn't even know it was a hated commander since he plays it as a blink deck. As such, it is fun to play against his Derevi deck, so I guess that says a lot about him