I played a game with the one guy who was trying to tell everyone they were making "wrong plays" so we spent the next 3 turns killing him.. he freaked out. Never saw him at the shop after that
man im gonna keep it a stack, that sounds worse than what he did to you. someone being a dick doesn't give you a license to be a dick to them, and it kind of sounds like he was just awkward and didn't understand why he shouldn't do that. he never came back to the store? that should make you feel bad
I'm a former 2 time world's competitor for another card game. So everyone assumed I'd be a spike when i joined commander, but that's why I left competitive. Here's my advice in addition to what is said here. Counterspells. Counter only in defense. Counter people trying to destroy your stuff or if the spell on the stack will end the game. Let your opponents play their threats or their fun stuff. Build the optimal list then start cutting for theme, flavor, or fun. I do this often. I'll pick my 12 best ramp, 10 best draw, 10 nest removal. Then I will start cutting some of these for cards that synergize more with the theme or the deck. Example. I play lots of die rolling decks. Cut your rhystic study for contact other plane. Find fun or less supported mechanics. Don't always play those strong artifact decks or Tribal decks. Play attractions and build around it. Play off color decks. (Reanimator Mono-W). Etc.
I agree with so much of this.I have 12 decks because as I tune them the problems you mention reveal themselves like: same plays every game,too many triggers/actions per turn/insanely unfair or pointless chaos. I've turned to some combat decks for fun games and keep those highly tuned decks for games when we rule 0 the combo/high power meta is the goal. Shoutout to Amber
Counter magic is usually an all encompassing response, a few are restricted to permanent type, but most of the time they’ll hit anything and void any ETBs, anthem effects, etc. People don’t complain as much to spot removal/board wipes mostly because most of the time they’re pretty focused and specific: “destroy target enchantment, exile target creature, etc”. For me they “feel” more fair than “nope, you lost your mana and nothing happens”.
On the flipside, they are really time constrained. You don't have the counterspell up? That's your window gone. A counterspell does nothing against an existing threat
Counter magic is protection and removal at the same time, usually at a lower mana value than the protection or removal it pretends to not be. It's also significantly better than regular removal given that literally every creature printed since 2020 does everything it wants to on ETB
I'll add one random card I added to one of my decks for fun: Barroom Brawl. "Target creature you control fights target creature the opponent to your left controls. Then that player may copy this spell and may choose new targets for the copy". Every one can choose if they want to perpetuate the cycle of violence or not :)
Running 6 mdfcs in my oketra deck and 7 in my nymris list. They help a ton! Insane synergy with narset parter of veils and pitch cards like force of despair! They are also extra names for Field of the dead. The synergy is endless!
@@Jupue True, and you can't get them back with Life From the Loam and Crucible of Worlds. There are a few downsides with them, but I've really enjoyed the upsides!
The exception to board wipes: I have a Nevinyrral board wipe zombie tribal that is a blast. I played a game that had at least 9 total board wipes before it finished and we were all laughing and having a great time at the end.
Kibbler on "commander at home" I think is a perfect frame work of who a player should act! He will often make suggestion if there is a back and forth on say what to kill on his side, and he will point out the best move not trying to politic his way into being sneaky and avoiding removal for exp.
Everyone always hating on Dockside Extortionist (for good reason) but to me it will always be this sweet cute 2 drop Goblin Pirate card with a big nose and a monocle that makes treasures. Picked it up for 5 bucks the day of release for my pirate deck, never took it out since, and I'm still as happy to draw it as I was the first time I did.
I think the counterspells depend strongly on how you are using them. If I am trying to play stuff to improve my board state or get my plan going, it can be frustrating when every little thing you try to do gets countered. But counterspells are different when it comes to interaction and used as a form of protection. If I just played my commander and someone tries to remove it (or if I am trying to remove their commander) and it gets countered, I never feel bad about that. Constant counterspells that make you hesitant to take actions and draw games out are no fun, but getting countered when trying to interact with players is a lot of fun and makes you think about your interactions more.
Yeah I totally agree with this. I especially think counterspells are needed as just a catch all. They dont have to be deployed, but having the option to just stop somebody from completely dominating the game with a single play, or stop a board wipe is needed. Although everyone doing their thing and going crazy is the fun part and should balance out each other. But still, counterspells for protection and archenemy control is really helpful.
I think the counter magic versus removal point is easier to explain than most would think. When you counter a spell you essentially invalidate everything about it.. You don't get any triggers unless it specifically has a cast trigger. I think people feel better when they can at least somewhat benefit from the playing of a card versus getting absolutely nothing when it is countered.
I think the main difference for me when my creature gets countered vs if it gets destroyed is that at least I'll get death triggers for the latter. In the grave titan example, if you're playing zombies then you're very likely to also have something that benefits from creatures dying
in regards to increasing resorces i like descent into avernus (especially in a stompy deck) as it triggers on your upkeep for evryone and also reduces evryones live total
Paused: On the topic of rushing, it can also be really fun to rush 😂 The other day my friends and I were playing and 2 of the guys needed to leave by 8:45. No one wanted to scoop so we keep truckin' & by 8:50 we devolve into this blitz style of playing where no counterspells were played and each turn lasted 3-5 seconds. We would figure out our entire turn while the other guys were playing and pre-tap lands so that we could just sling spells - attack - pass It was probably the most fun I've had in commander in a LONG time 🤣
When y'all mentioned "removing tutors", I thought about how I recently upgraded my Roon of the Hidden Realms deck from "incomplete" to "functional", which included adding a Fierce Empath to tutor for my win con. Adding that single tutor doubled the reliability of the deck and, thus, outclassed the experimental jank my playgroup was using. It was fun in the first and second games, but by the third game when I knew that I was going to win again in the same way, I felt kind of disappointed.
When I got into commander about a year ago, my friends spoke to me about Rule 0. I've noticed that not a lot of people talk about it in my area, which has let Precon vs Cedh matches on friendly quest-like tournaments.
@@NitpickingNerds My LGS has a system where you rate your deck when you sign up to FNM to help with matchmaking. It's not perfect, but it helps a lot. (And I actually get to regularly play my cEDH deck in a cEDH pod) It might be worth talking to the store staff about implementing a similar system if precon vs cEDH games are happening regularly.
There was this study done on domination in play with rats. Two rats, a big one and a smaller one are separated by a gate. On the side with the smaller rat there is a button to open the door. Generally speaking, rats are social creatures and they tend to play wrestle at times. Obviously the big rat should beat the small rat 100% of the time, but they found out that if the big rat doesn't let the little rat win at least 30% of the time, the little rat will not invite the big rat to play. We humans have this same circuit. The counter balance tends to be that the "superior" player feels a certain kind of way when they have to pull punches. But I've learned that there is an art to crafting an artful defeat where it feels so close but you had control the entire time.
I had to pull my punches for years after introducing my friends to mtg. But now I have a playgroup that is competent and we play regularly. Now if only I could get them to stop being salty over single target removal lol
Thank you for making videos like these! Love the emphasis on fun. My LGS has started a sign up sheet for players to choose casual or competitive on commander night. Then we're grouped accordingly. It's great for players to enjoy their style of gameplay. Like you said, everyone's idea of fun is different.
I agree with the "play to win but not always" statement, i have a niv-mizzet, parun deck and i obviously play curiosity in it but generally i try not to win with it unless i'm playing against high power decks
For the Moxfield ad, you should mention that you can add a deck using the existing deck list url. I moved over from a redacted site with minimal effort, which was nice
When I play counterspells it's usually things like an offer you can't refuse to protect my important things rather than stopping my opponent from doing their game plan.
Last weekend I had a game where one person locked the board down with Lavinia of the Tenth, and then Stasis and Possibility Storm got played (and almost Drannith along with Possibility Storm). It took 4.5 hours
Anytime I've taught someone to play, and they've made a suboptimal removal or counter spell play, I will let it resolve, and then explain afterwards why it was a suboptimal play and what they should have done instead. It really isn't helpful to be constantly telling someone how to play so I feel it is especially helpful to let them make the mistakes and somewhat figure it out for themselves so they don't repeat it. And usually if they see the mistake they made, and they ask for a redo, I'm not opposed to allowing it for the sake of learning the game and learning threat assessment
I've seen the sanitarium played with a pay-to-draw deck... basically they had underworld dreams and Sheoldred the apocalypse out, and made everyone draw to death... they also played a ton of discard cards (go blank, inscription of ruin, etc, liliana), and a ton of graveyard hate... needless to say, no one had fun that day.
If someone asks what the threat is i nearly always say me, normally it is. Recently i've built a fully casual deck with a £100 budget, so cheap 3 colour mana base, no combos, no tutors(actually one curse that gets other curses), i felt that curses and goad with Lynde would at least accellerate the game. As always never more than 3 board wipes but 10+ interaction spells (actually running all the spell cycles in grixis: charms, commands, confluences, endeavors, interventions, etc)
I am glad there are other group hug haters out there. Group hug and stax operate on the same axis, changing the allocation of resources. A group hug piece that benefits everyone else more than me is the same as a stax piece against me, change my mind.
Group hug annoys me for a couple reasons. 1 we're here to kill each other, not help. 2 the hugging fixes the deckbuilding mistakes of all the other players, if you kept a bad hand or didn't put in enough lands/ramp you should suffer the consequences.
A friend of mine plays an Athreos, Shroud Veiled deck with like, 12 board wipes in it 😅 Playing against it definitely teaches you to not overextend on the board!
With Tutors, instead of cutting all tutors, I just swapped them out for 'interesting' ones. Currently, my favorite deck is playing: Demonic Bargain Mausoleum Secrets Gamble Buried Alive Entomb Unmarked Grave Urza's Saga Grim tutor. Fetchlands Also, playing tainted pact without any combos is really fun. T
Think go into the game remembering it’s a game is a good one. A lot of people take removal personally, Especially when it’s sub optimal targets. It’s a game. You can always shuffle for the next one. Just because your deck isn’t doing the cool things you thought it would when you goldfished doesn’t mean it’s the end of the world.
At the beginning I almost thought "play to win" was their new sponsor. That many times they said that phrase. Edit: you guys seem to be nice players to play against.
A rule I have personally is I’m allowed to play strong staples, demonic tutors, rystic study, smothering tith, ect. But I’m only allowed to have one in a deck at a time. If I have a demonic tutor in one deck it’s not allowed in any other deck
I agree with everything but the interaction part. If you find yourself facing a dranith magistratre, play more removal or build your deck in a way you don't depend only on your commander.
Hey, I have fun being Lord Boardwipe! And everyone keeps saying Korvold decks are horrendous, well let me tell you, I've managed to make an unwinnable Korvold deck. I don't see why everyone hates Korvold. Maybe one day I'll see good results from a Korvold deck
I wonder if in your Rule 0 discussion, you could get everyone to start the game with their Sol Ring in play? Seems like a way to speed a game up a little and people can do fun stuff faster.
The thing about counter spells is that sometimes people counter spells that don't matter. That windfall (probably) won't win or lose anyone the game, but that Torment of Hailfire for 35 probably shouldn't resolve.
NN: lower your curve, play more interactive cards, etc. Me: the average mana cost of my deck is at least 3 higher than everyone else at the table and my one interaction piece per deck is a beast within
I’ve been slowly taking Sol Ring out of all my decks because of how unfun it is to me. Nothing is more boring than snowballing a game off of a turn 1 sol ring. I don’t care about winning and I rarely play CEDH so fast mana is not necessary I can’t agree more with “build for fun, play to win”
I've personally never had a problem with Sol Ring but out of 19 decks I own three I've opted out of using it. Mainly because I feel they don't benefit from fast/ early artifact ramp, two of those decks have green ramp/ extra land plays and the third is a Marchesa deck mostly focused on her so that extra two mana doesn't really give me a greater advantage anyway.
That’s fair. You’re allowed to use it, I’ve just found that the majority of the time it is played in the early game makes the game super lopsided. And I don’t find that fun on either side of it
For me, personally, I think if a deck is not fully optimized cEDH it's not as fun as it could be. And my favourite less competitive theme is stax with no win con. But then, stax IS the win con, so just cEDH for me I think.
What do u ya think of Planar Chaos the Red enchantment? Everyone in my play group loves the chaos it brings... until I lose the flip. Another suggestion would be a Planes Chase Commander game! A shared battle field where everyone rolls to hit the chaos, or leave the plane! We often ban together to planes walk. Then continue to bash life points! 😆 Arcmage.
What's fun for me is when someone says they're playing their "Non-competitive" Yaygmoth deck, and then I proceed to Satoru Blightsteel them three games in a row so the other two non-competitive players can have a real game. :)
This is one of my favorite cards! It basically just lets you play cards from each other decks without necessarily giving anyone an 'advantage' (unless you're playing Prosper, which I am).
Hm... I really don't like that especific staple argument. Like you guys, I'm not a huge fan of staples, but which card would you recommend to take Sol Ring/Mana Crypt's place and also give that awe reaction from the rest of the table? Some cards really can't be replaced without messing too much with the card draw, ramp and finishers ratio of your deck. Specially if you're trying to play in a higher power table. Great video! :D
Honestly, for most power levels, a deck should never need rhystic study to draw cards, or cyclonic rift to end games. There are plenty of synergistic options and non-busted staples you can use instead. At high levels, you kinda have to include staples by definition, though. The one exception is fast mana, which is generally irreplaceable. But I think cutting fast mana in favor of normal ramp makes games more interesting, so... I'd say the "sense of awe" from a mana crypt or something is cool, but it's also kinda inherently problematic... If a card's strength makes it so scary you can build a sense of awe just by casting it, then it's probably strong enough that you might not want to include it. Personally, I'd rather see a sense of awe from synergy or big, splashy spells than undercosted draw engines or fast mana. Plus, super-staples take up spots in the deck that prevent you from playing cards that are actually cool. If you cut rhystic study, you can play a weird new uncommon or a unique synergy piece in its place.
@@natekite7532 I see what you mean. Maybe I didn't express myself all that well, but what I tried to say with sense of awe is: The surprise of seeing a card you never saw or an interaction you didn't realize could happen. These things really can't realisticaly happen all the time. That's why I don't really like that argument, what could replace a sol ring/mana crypt/chrome mox and still impress my opponents? The constant strive for making the deck super unique can only go so far if you are playing in a somewhat higher power level. I'm not even talking about CEDH, but have you played in Mid-power on PLAYEDH server recently? Woof! Power creep is def a thing lol
To make sure no green players get ahead play Armageddon. ;) Actually to punish green players play this nifty card called Oath of lieges and give everyone a chance to hit the same amount of ramp with the land hungry green players as each players upkeep if a player controls more land than them they get to rampant growth. ;)
One thing that I noticed about two of my decks is that I'll eventually come to the point where I durdle for 20 minutes on my turn and move mana and cards around and I usually end up either actually winning the game or getting close enough to win on my next turn. Don't get me wrong I love doing these storm turns but I know that it's very unpleasent for people to watch me play solitaire without me knowing if I can even win. It's not even that they are dedicated storm decks (okay I do have one dedicated storm deck but that's not the point). One of them is Temur Omnath lands and the other one is Kethis Superfriends/Legends. Any advice?
Hmm, not super in the same vein but house rules are a thing, my playgroup uses 2 house rules that just make the games more fun most of the time Least fun thing in the game is getting mana screwed, to help avoid this we have a rule that before you choose to take a mulligan you can scry 2, helps people be comfortable with their hands if they can see their 2 land hand has 2 lands on top, or a ramp spell, if everyone gets to do it it’s never been a detriment The other is that if you miss 2 land drops in a row you may choose to, instead of drawing for turn, exile 2 cards from your hand and flip cards from the top of your library till you hit a land and put it into your hand, then shuffle the rest back into your library They aren’t OP by any means but it just helps avoid those games where someone is sitting in the corner doing nothing and being miserable, I’m sure they could be exploited but our group generally plays for fun, lower power decks around, so we’ve never had an issue with meta-gaming around these rules
How does the tutor thing factor in with decks that are using sub-par commanders? I know I play a Rayami deck and I usually loose right as I get some of his better keywords online, I recently cut some cards for some tutors to help get keywords when he needs them so I can actually compete in the latter half of the game I still loose, an indestructible, hexproof, vigilance, lifelink, flying, deathtouch 4/5 still looses to a large overrun effect or combos or anything like that, but I mean it’s better than dying early game as I can’t swing yet for fear of the clapback and I can’t defend well as I don’t have indestructible yet or something like that
Do you all consider chaos warp a chaos card? Its not a massive, time intensive chaotic cards… but the name is legit chaos, and adds randomness to the game. Opinions?
Hmm, I know you said to not play commander hate but I think everyone at the table has a chuckle when someone’s commander gets ‘darksteel mutation’ed Mostly in games that have become archenemy though I wouldn’t play it on turn 4 to someone who isn’t going off
Played skullwinder and my friend asked for the effect to get back a board wipe. So I gave it to them. They did not play the wipe on their next turn and instead alpha striked another player and removed them from the game. Very disappointing for them to break that social contract. Can't trust them now with effects like this.
What are people's thoughts on counterspells like blacksmith's skill or Tamiyo's safekeeping? Sometimes I run a number of these types of counters. Also, I might put counterspells in place of a heroic intervention to stop board wipes. What are people's thoughts on this style of counterspelling?
I don't really think most would consider a card like blacksmith's skill to be a counterspell. One-off protection spells are kinda their own, very specific category. And there's really no reason to have an issue with them; if someone gets salty at a blacksmith's skill then they're probably misdiagnosing what they actually hated about that game. As for slotting out heroic intervention for a counterspell - it doesn't matter why you put it in. Once it's in your hand, for better or worse, you'll use it like a counterspell. I don't have a problem with counterspells, but if your playgroup does, and you tell them your force of will is fine because "it's just a heroic intervention," they probably won't be particularly impressed. I do think that people tend to be more ok with "defensive" counterspells than offensive ones, but I don't know if there's any realistic way to incorporate that into your deck building or play.
![[#2024MAMA] ROSÉ (로제), Bruno Mars - APT. | Mnet 241122 방송](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/dgGqD28J6aQ/mqdefault.jpg)
*I'm soo glad Amber let you guys in her videos you guys are a good addition to her show*
"The Nitpicking Amber"
@@coldtruth9431 I was gonna say nitpaming catber. Am I good at jokes?
No bullying in the comments
You all are amazing
@@coldtruth9431 truth
I was gonna say step 1 of having fun was inviting Amber to the table, but finding out she’s an 11 land Stax player definitely changes my opinion
She is really just not nice lol 😂
I played a game with the one guy who was trying to tell everyone they were making "wrong plays" so we spent the next 3 turns killing him.. he freaked out. Never saw him at the shop after that
Sounds like social interaction was not for him 😂
That was the wrong play.
man im gonna keep it a stack, that sounds worse than what he did to you. someone being a dick doesn't give you a license to be a dick to them, and it kind of sounds like he was just awkward and didn't understand why he shouldn't do that. he never came back to the store? that should make you feel bad
@@doublebrass never thought of it from that prespective, but I appreciate it. Always looking to learn and grow.
So you bullied someone out of the community and we are proud of that?
I'm a former 2 time world's competitor for another card game. So everyone assumed I'd be a spike when i joined commander, but that's why I left competitive. Here's my advice in addition to what is said here.
Counterspells. Counter only in defense. Counter people trying to destroy your stuff or if the spell on the stack will end the game. Let your opponents play their threats or their fun stuff.
Build the optimal list then start cutting for theme, flavor, or fun. I do this often. I'll pick my 12 best ramp, 10 best draw, 10 nest removal. Then I will start cutting some of these for cards that synergize more with the theme or the deck. Example. I play lots of die rolling decks. Cut your rhystic study for contact other plane.
Find fun or less supported mechanics. Don't always play those strong artifact decks or Tribal decks. Play attractions and build around it. Play off color decks. (Reanimator Mono-W). Etc.
Well, I started playing commander bc I wanted to play tribal.
Cats for example aren’t very good in competitive
I agree with so much of this.I have 12 decks because as I tune them the problems you mention reveal themselves like: same plays every game,too many triggers/actions per turn/insanely unfair or pointless chaos. I've turned to some combat decks for fun games and keep those highly tuned decks for games when we rule 0 the combo/high power meta is the goal. Shoutout to Amber
Counter magic is usually an all encompassing response, a few are restricted to permanent type, but most of the time they’ll hit anything and void any ETBs, anthem effects, etc.
People don’t complain as much to spot removal/board wipes mostly because most of the time they’re pretty focused and specific: “destroy target enchantment, exile target creature, etc”. For me they “feel” more fair than “nope, you lost your mana and nothing happens”.
On the flipside, they are really time constrained. You don't have the counterspell up? That's your window gone. A counterspell does nothing against an existing threat
Counter magic is protection and removal at the same time, usually at a lower mana value than the protection or removal it pretends to not be.
It's also significantly better than regular removal given that literally every creature printed since 2020 does everything it wants to on ETB
I agreed with you, used to make blue decks without counterspells until I played against expropriate lol. Then I said fuck ut
I'll add one random card I added to one of my decks for fun: Barroom Brawl. "Target creature you control fights target creature the opponent to your left controls. Then that player may copy this spell and may choose new targets for the copy". Every one can choose if they want to perpetuate the cycle of violence or not :)
Running 6 mdfcs in my oketra deck and 7 in my nymris list. They help a ton! Insane synergy with narset parter of veils and pitch cards like force of despair! They are also extra names for Field of the dead. The synergy is endless!
It is kinda crazy when you think about just how much they do
I've also been noticing how great they are with hideaway lands/cards. I'd much rather put Emeria's call under my hideaway land than a basic plains.
I can also imprint them onto a Chrome Mox. You're right, I keep finding more synergies with them!
But they can not pitch to mox diamond, so it doesnt really Matter in that way
@@Jupue True, and you can't get them back with Life From the Loam and Crucible of Worlds. There are a few downsides with them, but I've really enjoyed the upsides!
The exception to board wipes: I have a Nevinyrral board wipe zombie tribal that is a blast. I played a game that had at least 9 total board wipes before it finished and we were all laughing and having a great time at the end.
Kibbler on "commander at home" I think is a perfect frame work of who a player should act! He will often make suggestion if there is a back and forth on say what to kill on his side, and he will point out the best move not trying to politic his way into being sneaky and avoiding removal for exp.
Building fun decks that go down the win is literally the key focus for most of my decks ^.^
Everyone always hating on Dockside Extortionist (for good reason) but to me it will always be this sweet cute 2 drop Goblin Pirate card with a big nose and a monocle that makes treasures. Picked it up for 5 bucks the day of release for my pirate deck, never took it out since, and I'm still as happy to draw it as I was the first time I did.
Woohoo, I just placed a $470 order on TCGPlayer with your affiliate link. Love you guys!
after watching this video, i already feel 5% more fun. Nice!
It’s true, you are!
I think the counterspells depend strongly on how you are using them. If I am trying to play stuff to improve my board state or get my plan going, it can be frustrating when every little thing you try to do gets countered. But counterspells are different when it comes to interaction and used as a form of protection. If I just played my commander and someone tries to remove it (or if I am trying to remove their commander) and it gets countered, I never feel bad about that. Constant counterspells that make you hesitant to take actions and draw games out are no fun, but getting countered when trying to interact with players is a lot of fun and makes you think about your interactions more.
Yeah I totally agree with this. I especially think counterspells are needed as just a catch all. They dont have to be deployed, but having the option to just stop somebody from completely dominating the game with a single play, or stop a board wipe is needed. Although everyone doing their thing and going crazy is the fun part and should balance out each other. But still, counterspells for protection and archenemy control is really helpful.
I think the counter magic versus removal point is easier to explain than most would think. When you counter a spell you essentially invalidate everything about it.. You don't get any triggers unless it specifically has a cast trigger. I think people feel better when they can at least somewhat benefit from the playing of a card versus getting absolutely nothing when it is countered.
I think the main difference for me when my creature gets countered vs if it gets destroyed is that at least I'll get death triggers for the latter. In the grave titan example, if you're playing zombies then you're very likely to also have something that benefits from creatures dying
I am 100% behind 23:31. I also really like Swan Song and An Offer You Can't Refuse for the same reason.
9:20 I wish there were more Arch-enemy cards and stuff, never played it before but a Stax or Chaos Archenemy would fit the role perfectly.
Wow this brings me back I remember those decks. Never played the arch enemy cards but would buy it for the nicol bolas lol
I have a tiny bones deck and I have tons of archenemy cards. It doesn't have a great win ratio, but it has a great fun ratio.
Finally get to watch the nerds on my birthday, thanks guys!
in regards to increasing resorces i like descent into avernus (especially in a stompy deck) as it triggers on your upkeep for evryone and also reduces evryones live total
Paused: On the topic of rushing, it can also be really fun to rush 😂
The other day my friends and I were playing and 2 of the guys needed to leave by 8:45. No one wanted to scoop so we keep truckin' & by 8:50 we devolve into this blitz style of playing where no counterspells were played and each turn lasted 3-5 seconds. We would figure out our entire turn while the other guys were playing and pre-tap lands so that we could just sling spells - attack - pass
It was probably the most fun I've had in commander in a LONG time 🤣
When y'all mentioned "removing tutors", I thought about how I recently upgraded my Roon of the Hidden Realms deck from "incomplete" to "functional", which included adding a Fierce Empath to tutor for my win con. Adding that single tutor doubled the reliability of the deck and, thus, outclassed the experimental jank my playgroup was using. It was fun in the first and second games, but by the third game when I knew that I was going to win again in the same way, I felt kind of disappointed.
When I got into commander about a year ago, my friends spoke to me about Rule 0. I've noticed that not a lot of people talk about it in my area, which has let Precon vs Cedh matches on friendly quest-like tournaments.
Talking about power level is very needed. I couldn’t imagine playing without doing it.
@@NitpickingNerds My LGS has a system where you rate your deck when you sign up to FNM to help with matchmaking. It's not perfect, but it helps a lot. (And I actually get to regularly play my cEDH deck in a cEDH pod)
It might be worth talking to the store staff about implementing a similar system if precon vs cEDH games are happening regularly.
There was this study done on domination in play with rats. Two rats, a big one and a smaller one are separated by a gate. On the side with the smaller rat there is a button to open the door. Generally speaking, rats are social creatures and they tend to play wrestle at times. Obviously the big rat should beat the small rat 100% of the time, but they found out that if the big rat doesn't let the little rat win at least 30% of the time, the little rat will not invite the big rat to play. We humans have this same circuit. The counter balance tends to be that the "superior" player feels a certain kind of way when they have to pull punches. But I've learned that there is an art to crafting an artful defeat where it feels so close but you had control the entire time.
I had to pull my punches for years after introducing my friends to mtg. But now I have a playgroup that is competent and we play regularly.
Now if only I could get them to stop being salty over single target removal lol
I added 3 cards to my tcg cart that I'd never heard of because they'll be super fun! That's a banger of a video!
Thank you for making videos like these! Love the emphasis on fun. My LGS has started a sign up sheet for players to choose casual or competitive on commander night. Then we're grouped accordingly. It's great for players to enjoy their style of gameplay. Like you said, everyone's idea of fun is different.
This is so nice 🥺 your LGS is dope
I agree with the "play to win but not always" statement, i have a niv-mizzet, parun deck and i obviously play curiosity in it but generally i try not to win with it unless i'm playing against high power decks
For the Moxfield ad, you should mention that you can add a deck using the existing deck list url. I moved over from a redacted site with minimal effort, which was nice
I love it! “Don’t tell people how they should play!” Now listen as we tell everyone how you should play…. But seriously you guys were GREAT.
When I play counterspells it's usually things like an offer you can't refuse to protect my important things rather than stopping my opponent from doing their game plan.
Last weekend I had a game where one person locked the board down with Lavinia of the Tenth, and then Stasis and Possibility Storm got played (and almost Drannith along with Possibility Storm). It took 4.5 hours
One of the most memorable moments I had was enchanting an opponents land so they wouldn’t be mana screwed.
Did I still lose? Yes…
How to make your commander videos more fun? More Third Nerd Amber!
Anytime I've taught someone to play, and they've made a suboptimal removal or counter spell play, I will let it resolve, and then explain afterwards why it was a suboptimal play and what they should have done instead. It really isn't helpful to be constantly telling someone how to play so I feel it is especially helpful to let them make the mistakes and somewhat figure it out for themselves so they don't repeat it. And usually if they see the mistake they made, and they ask for a redo, I'm not opposed to allowing it for the sake of learning the game and learning threat assessment
You guys are making a better and better show with the times!
The running jokes, the interaction with your crowd
Nice 👏👏👏
Thank you so much we try our best!
@@NitpickingNerds We can tell and we appreciate it. Thank YOU for being such great content creators!
Yeah you guys are pretty much my favorite. Definitely in terms of the wide range of topics you cover.
I love how in my commander play group we always help each other... sometimes I don't listen to recommendations, but I always regret it xD
I've seen the sanitarium played with a pay-to-draw deck... basically they had underworld dreams and Sheoldred the apocalypse out, and made everyone draw to death... they also played a ton of discard cards (go blank, inscription of ruin, etc, liliana), and a ton of graveyard hate... needless to say, no one had fun that day.
If someone asks what the threat is i nearly always say me, normally it is.
Recently i've built a fully casual deck with a £100 budget, so cheap 3 colour mana base, no combos, no tutors(actually one curse that gets other curses), i felt that curses and goad with Lynde would at least accellerate the game.
As always never more than 3 board wipes but 10+ interaction spells (actually running all the spell cycles in grixis: charms, commands, confluences, endeavors, interventions, etc)
@13:50 disagree with Prosper being listed here
Great video. This is totally something I've been forcing myself to consider more lately.
I am glad there are other group hug haters out there. Group hug and stax operate on the same axis, changing the allocation of resources.
A group hug piece that benefits everyone else more than me is the same as a stax piece against me, change my mind.
Group hug annoys me for a couple reasons. 1 we're here to kill each other, not help. 2 the hugging fixes the deckbuilding mistakes of all the other players, if you kept a bad hand or didn't put in enough lands/ramp you should suffer the consequences.
A friend of mine plays an Athreos, Shroud Veiled deck with like, 12 board wipes in it 😅 Playing against it definitely teaches you to not overextend on the board!
With Tutors, instead of cutting all tutors, I just swapped them out for 'interesting' ones. Currently, my favorite deck is playing:
Demonic Bargain
Mausoleum Secrets
Gamble
Buried Alive
Entomb
Unmarked Grave
Urza's Saga
Grim tutor.
Fetchlands
Also, playing tainted pact without any combos is really fun. T
Think go into the game remembering it’s a game is a good one. A lot of people take removal personally, Especially when it’s sub optimal targets. It’s a game. You can always shuffle for the next one. Just because your deck isn’t doing the cool things you thought it would when you goldfished doesn’t mean it’s the end of the world.
At the beginning I almost thought "play to win" was their new sponsor. That many times they said that phrase.
Edit: you guys seem to be nice players to play against.
A rule I have personally is I’m allowed to play strong staples, demonic tutors, rystic study, smothering tith, ect. But I’m only allowed to have one in a deck at a time. If I have a demonic tutor in one deck it’s not allowed in any other deck
As a fellow Stax player, i think Amber us the most based being on the planet.
I agree with everything but the interaction part. If you find yourself facing a dranith magistratre, play more removal or build your deck in a way you don't depend only on your commander.
Hey, I have fun being Lord Boardwipe! And everyone keeps saying Korvold decks are horrendous, well let me tell you, I've managed to make an unwinnable Korvold deck. I don't see why everyone hates Korvold. Maybe one day I'll see good results from a Korvold deck
almost 100k Subs, keep it up guys!
Closing in!
My playgroup always has to do the most optimal deck/play and I hate it. I don't play nearly as often anymore.
23:42 My best Chaos Warp moment is when my friend revealed his Phage The Untouchable.
Wait. On the Patron page did that say ... AUSTIN POST. Like ... Austin "POST MALONE" Post? POSTY? What the actual F. That's amazing
Yep! We love Posty!
I wonder if in your Rule 0 discussion, you could get everyone to start the game with their Sol Ring in play? Seems like a way to speed a game up a little and people can do fun stuff faster.
I heared about a houserule where verybody got a basic land of their choice in the commandzone that you could play at any point to reduce manascrew.
In my group we use to not have combos. Be we had the bigger problem of stalemates. So we allowed combos but restrictioned nonland tutors.
Atris is super fun in my jodah deck, every time it gets an "oh no is there a way I can give you 0 of these?"
Great video! I love when decks I play with and against are fun, without being grouphug decks.
Btw do you know when you’ll do a top 100 black cards? 🤔
Yeah id love to see green as well
Top 100 Black is in the works!
@@NitpickingNerds thanks for replying, that is lovely to hear! Looking forward to it 😁
I make my decks more fun with moxfield: the ad is at 16:22
The thing about counter spells is that sometimes people counter spells that don't matter. That windfall (probably) won't win or lose anyone the game, but that Torment of Hailfire for 35 probably shouldn't resolve.
NN: lower your curve, play more interactive cards, etc.
Me: the average mana cost of my deck is at least 3 higher than everyone else at the table and my one interaction piece per deck is a beast within
If you are having fun who are we to argue. ☺️
I want an amber cat themed deck now !
Amber Gristle O’ Maul with the background Raised by Giants 👌🏻
@@NitpickingNerds I'm waiting to see the deck tech now !
I’ve been slowly taking Sol Ring out of all my decks because of how unfun it is to me. Nothing is more boring than snowballing a game off of a turn 1 sol ring. I don’t care about winning and I rarely play CEDH so fast mana is not necessary
I can’t agree more with “build for fun, play to win”
I've personally never had a problem with Sol Ring but out of 19 decks I own three I've opted out of using it. Mainly because I feel they don't benefit from fast/ early artifact ramp, two of those decks have green ramp/ extra land plays and the third is a Marchesa deck mostly focused on her so that extra two mana doesn't really give me a greater advantage anyway.
That’s fair. You’re allowed to use it, I’ve just found that the majority of the time it is played in the early game makes the game super lopsided. And I don’t find that fun on either side of it
Turn 1 sol ring isn't that bad my guy...
Everybody catches up sooner or later
It doesn't help that every pre-con includes a Sol Ring now :(
@@benekatop they always have, the exception being the five color one recently.
As I said briefly passing by you at the Command zone, great channel guys!
8:34 I knew Amber was the mono R burn player!
I was out by 5 minutes 45 seconds this time.
For the next video I predict the Moxfield ad will be at 14 minutes 3 seconds.
For me, personally, I think if a deck is not fully optimized cEDH it's not as fun as it could be. And my favourite less competitive theme is stax with no win con. But then, stax IS the win con, so just cEDH for me I think.
Aww thank you for the birthday wishes. That was nice 😊
What do u ya think of Planar Chaos the Red enchantment? Everyone in my play group loves the chaos it brings... until I lose the flip. Another suggestion would be a Planes Chase Commander game! A shared battle field where everyone rolls to hit the chaos, or leave the plane! We often ban together to planes walk. Then continue to bash life points! 😆
Arcmage.
Finally!!! A birthday wish from the nerds!
I have an idea guys. Let's all get together and pick a different second of the next video!
It’ll never work!
What's fun for me is when someone says they're playing their "Non-competitive" Yaygmoth deck, and then I proceed to Satoru Blightsteel them three games in a row so the other two non-competitive players can have a real game. :)
Love this video, its been few weeks im trying to spread that kind of mentality around me :)
I wonder what yall think of the card " share the spoils"? Would you call it a group hug card or is it better bc you get the advantage asap?
On one hand, you built your deck around the card, so you're taking advantage more, but you're also down a card.
This is one of my favorite cards! It basically just lets you play cards from each other decks without necessarily giving anyone an 'advantage' (unless you're playing Prosper, which I am).
@@Kraftigebub I mean it's more card selection and it def can make sure you don't miss land drops especially in red where that can be hard
It's a hug card.
Thank you for the birthday wishes! :)
Anytime :P
Love the "she/purr"!
Amber played Rystic Study turn 1
That’s a classic Amber move
For a second during the Moxfield ad, I thought Beezy broke. I really think I heard the Windows restart sound.
Lol, jk, fun video!
My friend is like an mtg sadist he actually enjoys when you steal his commander and stuff
Anytime someone tells me my decks aren't fun, I remind them that 'fun' is a relative term
I used Yisan early on in my commander career and I learned fast that tutors make commander unfun.
Hm... I really don't like that especific staple argument.
Like you guys, I'm not a huge fan of staples, but which card would you recommend to take Sol Ring/Mana Crypt's place and also give that awe reaction from the rest of the table?
Some cards really can't be replaced without messing too much with the card draw, ramp and finishers ratio of your deck. Specially if you're trying to play in a higher power table.
Great video! :D
Honestly, for most power levels, a deck should never need rhystic study to draw cards, or cyclonic rift to end games. There are plenty of synergistic options and non-busted staples you can use instead. At high levels, you kinda have to include staples by definition, though.
The one exception is fast mana, which is generally irreplaceable. But I think cutting fast mana in favor of normal ramp makes games more interesting, so...
I'd say the "sense of awe" from a mana crypt or something is cool, but it's also kinda inherently problematic... If a card's strength makes it so scary you can build a sense of awe just by casting it, then it's probably strong enough that you might not want to include it.
Personally, I'd rather see a sense of awe from synergy or big, splashy spells than undercosted draw engines or fast mana.
Plus, super-staples take up spots in the deck that prevent you from playing cards that are actually cool. If you cut rhystic study, you can play a weird new uncommon or a unique synergy piece in its place.
@@natekite7532 I see what you mean.
Maybe I didn't express myself all that well, but what I tried to say with sense of awe is:
The surprise of seeing a card you never saw or an interaction you didn't realize could happen.
These things really can't realisticaly happen all the time.
That's why I don't really like that argument, what could replace a sol ring/mana crypt/chrome mox and still impress my opponents? The constant strive for making the deck super unique can only go so far if you are playing in a somewhat higher power level.
I'm not even talking about CEDH, but have you played in Mid-power on PLAYEDH server recently? Woof! Power creep is def a thing lol
To make sure no green players get ahead play Armageddon. ;)
Actually to punish green players play this nifty card called Oath of lieges and give everyone a chance to hit the same amount of ramp with the land hungry green players as each players upkeep if a player controls more land than them they get to rampant growth. ;)
One thing that I noticed about two of my decks is that I'll eventually come to the point where I durdle for 20 minutes on my turn and move mana and cards around and I usually end up either actually winning the game or getting close enough to win on my next turn. Don't get me wrong I love doing these storm turns but I know that it's very unpleasent for people to watch me play solitaire without me knowing if I can even win.
It's not even that they are dedicated storm decks (okay I do have one dedicated storm deck but that's not the point). One of them is Temur Omnath lands and the other one is Kethis Superfriends/Legends.
Any advice?
New video!!!! Amber too!!!!😁😁😁
I once Chaos Warped a Blightsteel into the same Blightsteel. :T
Hmm, not super in the same vein but house rules are a thing, my playgroup uses 2 house rules that just make the games more fun most of the time
Least fun thing in the game is getting mana screwed, to help avoid this we have a rule that before you choose to take a mulligan you can scry 2, helps people be comfortable with their hands if they can see their 2 land hand has 2 lands on top, or a ramp spell, if everyone gets to do it it’s never been a detriment
The other is that if you miss 2 land drops in a row you may choose to, instead of drawing for turn, exile 2 cards from your hand and flip cards from the top of your library till you hit a land and put it into your hand, then shuffle the rest back into your library
They aren’t OP by any means but it just helps avoid those games where someone is sitting in the corner doing nothing and being miserable, I’m sure they could be exploited but our group generally plays for fun, lower power decks around, so we’ve never had an issue with meta-gaming around these rules
How does the tutor thing factor in with decks that are using sub-par commanders?
I know I play a Rayami deck and I usually loose right as I get some of his better keywords online, I recently cut some cards for some tutors to help get keywords when he needs them so I can actually compete in the latter half of the game
I still loose, an indestructible, hexproof, vigilance, lifelink, flying, deathtouch 4/5 still looses to a large overrun effect or combos or anything like that, but I mean it’s better than dying early game as I can’t swing yet for fear of the clapback and I can’t defend well as I don’t have indestructible yet or something like that
I bet Amber wins every game with some crazy cedh stax deck.
YES but she only ever plays 12 lands
@@NitpickingNerds Makes sense. Armageddon isn't symmetrical if you have no lands!
@@NitpickingNerds when she wins i bet she pushes each deck off the table.
Do you all consider chaos warp a chaos card? Its not a massive, time intensive chaotic cards… but the name is legit chaos, and adds randomness to the game. Opinions?
Hmm, I know you said to not play commander hate but I think everyone at the table has a chuckle when someone’s commander gets ‘darksteel mutation’ed
Mostly in games that have become archenemy though I wouldn’t play it on turn 4 to someone who isn’t going off
I hope for more shuffle scuffle!
Council's judgement is my favorite voting card
I usually try to play as many mdfcs as I can justify which in some decks can be like 7
Played skullwinder and my friend asked for the effect to get back a board wipe. So I gave it to them. They did not play the wipe on their next turn and instead alpha striked another player and removed them from the game. Very disappointing for them to break that social contract. Can't trust them now with effects like this.
I thought you could play sol ring and signet turn one with a precon!!!
You can, but decks with more mana rocks do it more often.
Would you say monarchy is a group hug type mechanic? I’m thinking about running a Queen Marchessa monarchy themed deck.
Nvm lol, just watched the rest of the video
Avoid Hamsandwich, Beezy mentions 2 of my commander in a list of 5 cards, I am a horrible person.
Can you guys record a podcast? Your content is great
What are people's thoughts on counterspells like blacksmith's skill or Tamiyo's safekeeping? Sometimes I run a number of these types of counters. Also, I might put counterspells in place of a heroic intervention to stop board wipes. What are people's thoughts on this style of counterspelling?
I don't really think most would consider a card like blacksmith's skill to be a counterspell. One-off protection spells are kinda their own, very specific category. And there's really no reason to have an issue with them; if someone gets salty at a blacksmith's skill then they're probably misdiagnosing what they actually hated about that game.
As for slotting out heroic intervention for a counterspell - it doesn't matter why you put it in. Once it's in your hand, for better or worse, you'll use it like a counterspell. I don't have a problem with counterspells, but if your playgroup does, and you tell them your force of will is fine because "it's just a heroic intervention," they probably won't be particularly impressed.
I do think that people tend to be more ok with "defensive" counterspells than offensive ones, but I don't know if there's any realistic way to incorporate that into your deck building or play.
@@natekite7532 thank you so much for.yoir reply
damn i need to share this with my pod..