Was Future Trunks ACTUALLY Stronger Than Vegeta In The Cell Saga?

[@Razgriz0111]

Cell: "How are you this strong!?"
Vegeta: "I trained all day, yesterday."

[@spencercolborne3906]

“Bitch im adorable”

[@leonardosinche126]

Push ups or sit ups and drink plenty of juice
Remember 😂😅

[@gergelybalogh3005]

I do a lot of push-ups and I drink plenty of juice.

[@StareachValcin]

Interestingly enough, both Cell and Future Trunks did hypothesize that Vegeta was aware of the grade 3 form and its limitations. So, it is entirely possible that Vegeta could transform into super saiyan grade 3 too, but chose not to because the detriments far outweigh any benefits. After all Future Trunks in super saiyan grade 3 showed far more power than Vegeta at super saiyan grade 2, but when Cell realized the weakness of the form that Future Trunks used, Future Trunks actually did worse against Cell than Vegeta did. Vegeta was clearly a better fighter than Future Trunks, but it is possible that they were at the same level of power.

[@SonZackSSJ2]

Only because he lost the speed advantage Vegeta had

[@Jiron127]

I'm positive vegeta had grade 3. Remember trunks said vegeta was standing on the same spot for days. Then he achieved it.
Refer to gohan and goku. Goku literally sat for days and all of a sudden went through the levels.

[@SonZackSSJ2]

@@Jiron127 yeah I agree, but didn’t use to for the same reason as he didn’t use SSJ3 because how useless it was

[@decepticonxhunter4850]

It's possible, but the bottom line is that there is no confirmation from Vegeta that he ever had G3. The only thing the manga ever states is that Vegeta opted not to push for the form. Ppl tend to read nonexistent evidence like this into the situation because the very real possibility of Vegeta being the weakest SSJ in the Cell Arc is not something they want to consider or even accept.

[@theactiveactivist515]

​@@decepticonxhunter4850 When Cell said "Even Vegeta knew this", that was the confirmation that Vegeta also had the form, but knew not to use it. I argue that Trunks performed better as Super Trunks than Vegeta did against Perfect Cell. He had more of a back and forth fight against Cell before Vegeta left and he transformed into Ultra Trunks grade 3. It's pretty much confirmed Trunks was holding back and selling "trying hard" to get Vegeta to safety. Don't forget Half Breeds have greater potential. The only person who didn't achieve grade 3 is Gohan, because he actually achieved SSJ2, which was the best form to have at that time.

[@cywh1711]

Vegeta had Grade 3. He just didn't use it because he knew of its issues lol

[@49ers_red_and_gold2]

Why he is the smarter Trainer

[@everardo2345]

Lmao fr Trunks even states himself that Vegeta knew about it but knew of its weakness

[@OrevShalom]

Yea Trunks thought he was stronger because he went grade 3 but Vegeta could do it but never messed with it Vegeta knew it's flaws

[@Rude_Boi]

​@nightowl316 I wouldn't even call Trunks stupid to try out the Grade 3 transformation. He was naive and desperate to prevent the present from becoming like the hell that he came from in his own timeline.

[@Valientlink]

It would've been useful to have powered into it for his final flash but I'm guessing it would've taken too much time at that moment and he never prepared to have to use it anyway.

[@LowResCatExplosion]

I really like how the Z fighters refer to Cell as an it and not a he. Really makes Cell feel all the more inhuman

[@christopherhaynes8101]

Bro that’s just the z fighter using proper pronouns. 😂

[@PrincessDesert]

⚡️The 1st Manga of Cell that came out in Japan back then, the title of that manga book is called “it”

[@keljerel]

Man, I discovered your channel a few days ago and you are literally answering all of the questions I had as a kid watching DBZ. Awesome content!

[@Marcus_shawn]

If you watched the show you would know all of this honestly

[@keljerel]

@@Marcus_shawn Bro, you are absolutely full of it. There are so many plot holes and questions in DBZ that it's insane.

[@LemoneMan]

​​@@Marcus_shawn that's not how that works. You can watch a show multiple times and not realize a certain something happened or whatever it may be. We're humans. Not some robots that can analyze every last detail.

[@KolaTheBear]

Please educate yourself because I am sick of arguing that Trunks and Goku both could not beat Cell.

[@teeboz6237]

@@keljerel this isn’t one of them. It was stated multiple times Vegeta had grade 3 in the manga and the official anime guide.

[@ZolPsyko]

I think they were even. However, Vegeta is the more seasoned, better fighter. You could give the edge to him.
I think if they actually worked together in the Time Chamber, they would've become stronger.

[@Jiron127]

Vegeta was stronger

[@hiphopstrongman]

Their strengths as individuals served to be the other’s weaknesses.
Vegeta is the best tactician of all the Saiyans, as confirmed by King Yemma. His ego however is what leads to his undoing-if he fell back to his tactics instead of being blindsided by pride he’d be better. Trunks does not have this drawback, and he goes for the kill instead of trying to “test himself” unnecessarily.
On the other hand, Trunks is emotional, and does not always think through situations completely. While him powering up in an attempt to overwhelm Cell with power was noble, it was also an emotional response because he rushed in blindly only to get his ass kicked-a result of not knowing what exactly the form he took is truly capable of.
Vegeta, while arrogant, at the same time at least tests the waters to gauge what exactly his opponent is capable of. That’s why he realized that the Grade 3 form was useless against Cell in this state.

[@dontmisunderstand6041]

Force = Mass x Acceleration. Yes. If they're twice as heavy, their acceleration is cut in half, using the same force to propel themselves. Now, because of how the power system works, that doesn't necessarily mean they'll be half as fast, because they can just put more ki into their movement, burning through their reserves more quickly. Mathematically, between either stamina consumption or speed, doubling their weight does in fact make them half as good at simply moving around. It doesn't matter how fast they get or how much they improve their stamina, this will simply be true always.

[@T2ThAdAwG]

Glad you said this! This is also seen often enough in combat sports where competitors move up in weight class. No matter what there will be some loss in speed

[@kjo2130]

The Cell saga is so goated man. Truly isn't appreciated enough.

[@basedjiren3889]

Cell confirmed that Vegeta couldve used grade 3 but wasnt dumb enough to use it

[@tweso1499]

And as we've seen today, that threshold is vast

[@The-Omni-Saiyan_6798]

@@tweso1499 So why don't you come on down here, stop using that useless form, and quit wasting everyone's time.

[@PrincessDesert]

WRONG Vegeta goes Grade 3 too ! just like Trunks😉

[@Chille10]

He is just not stronger than trunks though...cell fought both guys and wanted to fight trunks again and couldn't care less about Vegeta

[@malrofo]

Fun fact: in supersonic warriors 2 for the DS, ssj trunks' final attack is a Phoenix buster in his ssj grade 3 form. Seems like it would be useful if you could somehow restrain your opponent (maybe with a burning attacks as thats its effect in the game) use to power boost as a final attack

[@carstan62]

Supersonic Warriors 2 is friggin GOATed! For my personal taste, I actually think ArkSys did a better job on that than FighterZ, but I know that's a hot take. I just don't think a grounded fighting game properly captures what fights are like DBZ.

[@aeolusedge8575]

Great video as always. I remember how hyped I was seeing Super Trunks...only to learn how useless the form was lol.

[@Equinox2149]

All the power but none of the speed

[@Lynnfield3440]

I hate this inconsistency. Like broly is build like a freight train at his skinniest. But he doesn't have that issue.

[@aeolusedge8575]

@@Lynnfield3440 Yeah, I thought that was odd as well. Broly is way bigger and yet his speed is perfectly fine.

[@carstan62]

There really isn't evidence in either direction. It was said that Trunks was specifically keeping his power lower than Vegeta's for the purpose of letting Vegeta think he was stronger. This could just have been hiding grade 3, or it could have keeping his base power lower too. If we look at feats, Vegeta outsped Trunks and actually inflicted damage on Cell with Final Flash, but Trunks seemed to do more damage in the scuffle between Trunks and Vegeta with his blast.
Ultimately, it doesn't matter though. They're so close in power that there really isn't a functional difference, but it's clear that Vegeta is a better fighter and Trunks doesn't know how to use his power as well. And I think that's more important. What matters more, a small difference in power or the experience to utilize that power?
EDIT: So many people in the comments just repeating "Vegeta could have gone grade 3," and "Grade 3 sucks." That's not the point though. It's about whether Trunks in grade 2 was stronger than Vegeta in grade 2.

[@douglascramer1501]

Theory: Vegeta is much better at the Earthling technique of "hiding and sensing energy", so Trunks and Krillin can't tell that he has reserves.
Evidence: Vegeta spent the entire Frieza Arc using the technique, on an actual battlefield with both Scouter tech and Earthlings.
Trunks only ever fought the Androids, who can't sense energy anyways, so there would be no reason for him to learn that technique. Gohan barely taught Trunks anything resembling martial arts and probably just left him alone, like Piccolo did to him.

[@jameshollister8294]

He wasn't that why he went grade 3 because he couldn't see limitations

[@brandongary8234]

I'm guessing Broly is use to being muscle bound in terms of size. It sorta like training in gravity for him except he adapt at being muscle bound

[@jordanwoodle8040]

Broly is a lot taller

[@JNIGHTification]

It not that exactly. The legendary super saiyan form is a natural genetic mutation that Broly has. Its a natural PART of his power so it doesn’t share the same drawbacks as grade 3.

[@jayclearmen411]

@@jordanwoodle8040 that doesn’t apply cuz broly is legit 7ft in his base form..he was born built and naturally taller then piccolo…but soon as he goes legendary he literally become 9ft’10 i wish i was joking..
Besides vegeta quickly realized he must have studied how to use his size strength an power.. An his dad paragus said as much to frieza even tho the emperor didn’t take it seriously..

[@douglascramer1501]

Answer: Broly can't turn into the Ozaru Form, even when he has a tail. He loses his mind because he isn't a natural-born elite Saiyan, so he can't fully control himself, like Vegeta could.
The only other genetic anomaly we see is Gohan, who is the ONLY Half-Saiyan that was born with a Tail. Coincidentally, he also has emotional instability and eventually unlocks a Mythical Form.

[@1sonjohn44]

Grade 2 is my favorite transformation. It would have been dope to see them master this form and go from there, instead base super saiyan. If I recall correctly, grade 2 doesn't really have drawbacks, it's grade 3 that was the issue.

[@tobin2.0]

Grade 2 just wasn't as strong as Grade 4 which also consumed less energy

[@rrose9161]

Anyone notice the similarities between the numbered ssj forms and the ssj grade forms ( like how the 2nd form doesn't really have problems but the 3rd form has massive flaws )

[@jakd2962]

@@tobin2.0 there’s no such thing as grade 4, it’s just regular ssj that one conditions there body to over a long period of time so that they dont run out of stamina too quickly.
The reason why goku got a lot stronger than vegeta and trunks is because he trains more effectively and he trained with Gohan. Those two factors allowed him to increase his base power more quickly than either of them.

[@imjustadog1897]

Mastered Grade 2 would probably be slightly stronger than mss(mastered super saiyan), but still wouldn’t last long in a drawn out fight. Grade 2 looks like it requires a lot of energy to keep the muscles bulky. Relaxing too much would probably force the user to go back down to ss.

[@jayclearmen411]

@@imjustadog1897 In the anime it looks like Future Trunks has mastered it to the point that he can apply that bulky grade 3 transformation while in ssj 2.. we see it plainly when he spars with vegeta in the Black Zamasu Arc
he transforms
into Super saiyan 2 then bulks up On top of that.. which was possible but never done before!? like who else has tried to turn ssj2 with a grade 3 power up on top of that..
Vegeta sees then an says “you disappoint me” but remarks that it was only a scheme to draw him in close..but vegeta transforms into blue.. proceeds to lay waste to him with utter ease.

[@jadenhall7938]

No he dead wasn’t stronger…multiple points of proof

[@gamingguru2k6]

Vegeta probably already noticed the problems with grade 2. Pushing further to grade 3 would be worse, so he tried to master grade 2. That's what I always thought.

[@douglascramer1501]

I agree. I always thought that Grade 2 was a Failed Form of SSJ 2 and, as such, was unstable. All of the Saiyans learned how to create this False Form in their training, however, Trunks was the only one that was stupid enough to exaggerate the Failed Form to sharply increase its strengths, without realizing that he also exaggerated its weaknesses.
Vegeta realized that the form has weaknesses and compensated with an increased usage of Ki to make up for his reduction in speed. Only, this will exhaust him faster and reduce the time that he can fight at maximum strength.
In a fight against a being that can regenerate, or has a strong constitution, it would be pathetic to try and engage in a life and death battle with them, versus a Martial Arts fight, where such a tactic could be considered smart.

[@stephano2996]

What i wonder is why didnt Trunks go for a ki blast attack when he increased his power that much but was to slow to hit him with his fists. Looking at Vegeta's final flash in a weaker SSJ grade form showed that ki blasts are effective.

[@number3stunner118]

I've thought that might've been a solid strategy to try to use his strength against Cell.

[@danielsilva-ds2u]

I agree. Even more so, if vegeta could ssj grade 3, why didn't he do that with final flash?
Trunks I guess could understand that cell maybe wouldn't fall for the same trick twice and cell seemed afraid enough at the end of vegetas final flash attack that I don't think he would try tanking a blast again.

[@decepticonxhunter4850]

The only reason why Vegeta hit Cell with that Final Flash is because Cell was totally confident that Vegeta wasn't a real threat to him, so he didn't bother dodging. I doubt Cell would've gave Trunks the same opportunity.

[@maniacslap1623]

Yeah Cell wasn’t letting that shyt happen lol

[@westonnwaimo4002]

@@danielsilva-ds2u he probably did for a split second because I noticed his muscles extracting when releasing the final flash. But I could be wrong ofc

[@robxholicfoxyfan8552]

Honestly Vegeta acknowledging Trunks as even close to his power speaks volumes of his actual pride in his son. I believe that Vegeta was slightly stronger overall, and even if Grade 3 Trunks was stronger than Grade 3 Vegeta (maybe hybrid Saiyans would make Grade 3's multiplier different), the drawbacks would be far too great as well and Vegeta would win regardless. Vegeta admitting Trunks is in his league is actually quite a compliment to Trunks for how Vegeta is in general. Vegeta does respect others power very rarely in the earlier arcs. He does let Cell and Frieza get the upper hand, but he doesn't necessarily respect their power in his early days, just getting mad at it since they do surpass him and wreck him. He does dislike Goku as well, but after getting beaten by Goku he doesn't disrespect his power, more Goku's attitude. The fact he wants a rematch so badly he becomes a Majin speaks volumes. So admitting Trunks is near him in strength despite not training with him directly shows his own form of acknowledgement towards his son. He may never have admitted it if Trunks did surpass him slightly, but admitting that he was that close in power at all is definitely something to consider, even if it was to torment Cell for sucking in combat.

[@cosmosofinfinity]

I think Trunks probably has about as much as hidden anger potential as Gohan does, by virtue of him surpassing his father with a new form just like Gohan did for his. Trunks just wasn't trained properly, due to Vegeta's overly strict loveless methods generally always being fundamentally flawed, and wanting to maintain continued dominance over his son the same as everyone else

[@douglascramer1501]

Argument: Gohan is a genetic anomaly, being the only Half Saiyan that was born with a Saiyan Tail. This is why his power is so unique and he eventually gains access to the "Ultimate Form" which has no limits, letting him increase his power, without having to create a new transformation.
Trunks is the first ELITE Half Saiyan, so he has a better foundation than Gohan did. Just like Vegeta did vs Goku. Without outside influence, Trunks would always be stronger than any other Saiyan, including Gohan.
Evidence: Goku trained with Multiple Gods, learning strange techniques, to increase his power, or exaggerated training through the use of technology:
1. Kame and King Kai
2. Gravity Machine and Hyperbolic Time Chamber
Without the Elder Kai, or other strange techniques taught to Gohan, he would never surpass Trunks. Unless you include his genetic anomaly of being born with a Tail, in the explanation.

[@SpiritLife]

Maybe grade 3 COULD be useful during a stationary move like the Kamehameha, Destructo Disc, or Final Flash. Or imagine if one of the Saiyans learned the Tri-Beam from Tien and used it in Grade 3?

[@douglascramer1501]

It's not about power, it is about stamina. If you use a Death Ball style attack, then it is fine, as your attack is fully formed and does not require a constant stream. Same with Destructo Disc.
However, a Formless attack like the Kamehameha, requires vast amounts of stamina, as the constant stream will makeup for the lack of impact, that the Formed attacks specialize in.
TLDR: Any form of resistance will decrease the amount of advantage that the Grade 3 Form gave you. The longer the interaction, the greater you move to a disadvantageous position.

[@SpiritLife]

@@douglascramer1501 that's a great point!

[@somberthunder8908]

I really enjoy the topics and questions you bring to our attention. I feel like it adds even more enjoyment to the this story that we've always loved for so many years

[@Skitzotech]

The anime added a tiny detail that I saw while watching it as a kid.
The first time Vegeta powers up to "Super Vegeta" he actually powered up a bit more than he should have... (likely to flex for everyone who could sense power levels)
As he stood there freshly transformed he held it for like 10 seconds and let Cell soak it in. But then he immediately shrinks down a couple sizes before gut checking Cell.
That alone meant that Vegeta powered up the EXACT amount that wouldnt start decreasing his speed. (Vegeta knew its weaknesses the instant he could attain that new form, without even transforming into said form, just like Goku)

[@douglascramer1501]

I agree. People forget that Vegeta is a Warrior, not a martial artist. He would never create a form as a crappy "last resort", he would rather just blow himself up, or the Planet.
If Vegeta wanted a NUKE, he could have just wished back his tail.

[@hildenburg5]

it reminds me of Freiza's 100 percent form where he bulked up but started to plateau then dip on power on namek

[@decepticonxhunter4850]

Frieza's power didn't really dip on Namek. Goku's power continued to climb after the transformation, Frieza's attack pattern became more predictable and desperate, and all the crit hits that Goku landed were starting to add up.

[@number3stunner118]

A couple of things that I think could support the possibility of Trunks being stronger (even if just a little) are 1)Trunks not actually being hurt by Cell (even after letting him get free shots in while waiting for Vegeta to be gone). Vegeta arguably could have been fatigued from kicking Cell's ass before his final transformation - but Trunks also fought him for awhile.
2) Krillin seemed to think Trunks was stronger, and he can sense power levels.
actually, maybe 3) Perfect Cell had no interest in Vegeta, but still wanted to fight Trunks in a rematch.
Hard to know, though.
I think it was intentional to have the contrast of Trunks finding out the hard way that his USSJ form was a hinderance - even though his father may have know, but didn't bother to tell him - vs Goku teaching Gohan about it in training. I really don't like the retcon that Vegeta trained Trunks, when, to my knowledge, he left him to fend for himself in the chamber.

[@westonnwaimo4002]

Ikr talk ab training together they might as well have went alone or trunks try and train with piccolo or something

[@number3stunner118]

@@westonnwaimo4002 man, I've had a convo on here before about Trunks training with Piccolo, and it pisses me off that it didn't happen 😑. Gohan could've still been the one to beat Cell - Trunks could've trained with Piccolo the second time he went in.
Also, in Super they fumbled then with Trunks's training also (among many other problems with the writing). Why didn't they do the SSG ritual with Trunks, have Trunks go into the chamber to train, and then have Elder Kai unlock his potential? Instead they had him sit with Gohan and see how much better life was in the timeline he basically saved, and somehow get slme new form, when they could've legit made him on par with Goku and Vegeta, which would make sense for him to be prepared for whatever timeline he ended up in, as it's protector.

[@douglascramer1501]

Argument: Trunks was never taught to hide his power level, as the androids couldn't sense energy and there was no reason to hide from anyone else. Gohan also died very quickly into Trunks' training.
Vegeta has thorough use of both techniques and can be assumed to be a Master. There is very little chance that Vegeta wouldn't be able to sense Trunks' power, as he was able to sense Goku's power in multiple arcs.

[@zuffin1864]

Can we give credit to dr gero for making scouter tech better than frieza's army as well? The fact that he didn't take over the world initially with the red ribbon army is just a matter of unlucky timing, like dang an alien monkey boy came to ruin your aspirations... who woulda thought that could happen

[@TsuikeNovaus]

Writing this before watching the video.
Was Future Trunks stronger than Vegeta in the Cell Saga? Yes, but with an asterisk.
In terms of pure power, Trunks did get stronger than Vegeta. The biggest issue was, Trunks was never formally taught by a Saiyan who could see the levels beyond the base Super Saiyan 1, so when he started training with Vegeta, he thought pure power was everything. Thus, upping his strength and damage output was everything to him, whereas Vegeta had been fighting all his life, and had heard about the legendary Super Saiyan and all of the legends. He was aware of the problems of a big bulky form over his years of fighting multiple enemies, and thus, likely avoided Grade 3 as it would have lost him too much speed and maneuverability. Trunks fought for survival for far too long, while Vegeta fought as a job, and thus the gap in their experience levels was far too great for Trunks to see the downfalls.
Interestingly enough though, if not for Trunks' Daddy issues, he probably would have killed Semi-Perfect Cell on the spot, or as soon as possible. Considering 17 doesn't do anything interesting for the rest of Z(and even GT's Super Android 17 is kind of meh), their world would likely have been better off.

[@rrose9161]

Anyone else notice how similar the numbered ssj forms and the ssj grade forms are ( example: the 2nd form doesn't have any issues whereas the 3rd form has massive issues )

[@ezequielinsaurralde5058]

Yeah, Like Some People Say
If Krillin Could Tell That Trunks Was Hiding Grade 3, Why Didint He Said The Same About Vegeta If He Really Had It?

[@MaskedFighter]

What would make these videos better is a bit of dbz music in the background while going through explanation it would set the mood

[@MrShadowThief]

25:50 One thing I like about the anime more. Here in the manga they don't say anything, but in the anime Vegeta says something like "Cell, the prince of planet Vegeta is going to end you!" to which Cell replies "the prince of planet Vegeta is a maggot" before slapping him.

[@reeces3943]

Why didn’t Vegeta and Trunks continue to at least use grade 2 after this? It didn’t seem to have the downsides of grade 3, and I don’t think it drains too much energy as Vegeta probably wouldn’t have even bothered using it against cell in the first place

[@Valientlink]

They were probably trying to attain MSSJ and maybe to a slight extent did but as far as the anime goes it looks to me like they're in grade 2, at least Trunks

[@reeces3943]

@@Valientlink I’ve always assumed they were in grade 2 during the cell games, but I don’t know if it’s ever been confirmed or denied. Too me the hair looks spikier and they seem more bulky than regular ssj

[@jayclearmen411]

@@reeces3943 nah vegeta was in grade 2 trunks used grades 1 & 3..
unfortunately i don’t believe he mastered 2 as much as he should have!

[@armplanet7524]

​@Reece's they was in grade 2

[@decepticonxhunter4850]

@@Valientlink That's not the case, as it was a total surprise to Vegeta that something like that was even possible. His inferiority complex creeping back up when Goku powered up showed that he never once thought of mastering the SSJ to the degree that Goku and Gohan did. That was something Goku thought of while inside the SATR. Vegeta and Trunks were just focused on getting more power.

[@Fred63205]

16:23 sounds like 'stronger than any power I've tapped into so far, but I'll flex in a moment' 😂. Seriously though, he comes up with the tournament idea in a moment. I think he's just encouraging Trunks to train in different ways

[@maniacslap1623]

Hell no. Trunks just showed more powered because he thought he could beat Cell with it. Vegeta already knew wat was up and in a h2h against Trunks, woulda kicked his ass im sure lol

[@joshuariddensdale2126]

He was, but with one caveat: the initial level beyond Super Saiyan sacrificed speed for power. Vegeta and Goku were aware of this weakness and that was why they chose not to transform into that. Trunks found out the hard way when he confronted Cell and couldn't land a single blow. At the beginning of the Goku Black arc of Dragon Ball Super, Future Trunks deliberately transforms into it to trick Vegeta into attacking first ("Don't you dare tell me you're relying on THAT form!")

[@gangstagummybear3432]

He landed several blows, and Vegeta only landed a hit on Cell when he sat there and allowed him to kick him, this is paramount as Vegeta was less bulked than Trunks, but Vegeta couldnt even keep Cell within his view and keep up with him nor could he move fast enough to hit him if Cell didnt want him to, unlike Trunks still keeping up with Cell and able to track his movements, Cell called Vegeta a weakling, not Trunks, Trunks is the first one that started landing hits, only later on after Trunks over bulked did he get too slow to hit Cell

[@douglascramer1501]

​@@gangstagummybear3432 Vegeta exhausted Perfect Cell, more than it appears, in their fight, as Piccolo's regeneration takes a lot of stamina and energy to use. So Trunks was fighting Perfect Cell in a weakened state.
Evidence: Goku's Instant Transmission Kamehameha Wave did about the same amount of damage as Vegeta. Destroying a large part of Cell's core.

[@dhortonofficial165]

During the Goku Black arc in the Super anime Vegeta mentions to Trunks that that form is too bulky and slow. That’s a pretty cool full circle moment

[@t5hammer871]

Super Saiyan Grade 3 serves the same purpose as SSJ3: Its a one-shot kill form. You use it to amp your power as high as you can then throw your strongest blast/punch to kill the opponent in one shot. If they can't stand up to you, gucci! If they can... then ur in trouble... for different reasons, obviously. SSJ3's power drain is NUTS and SSJ grade 3 is just too slow to be worth it.

[@DaBigWilliG1995]

I always imagined it like a set of sliders you have, one saying power the other saying speed and you can ramp up the power one but if you bring it beyond a point it starts brining down your speed, like you are literally drawing this power from your speed stat.

[@jeremyhannah4730]

I sort of took Cell's "bluff" moment as Trunks had in fact achieved a tremendous amount of power, maybe comparable to SSJ2 Gohan, more likely just more powerful than Cell at 100% (right now, before the 10 day period before the tournament) So where he might not be as physically powerful, as we know Trunks would never be able to lay a hand on him. I'm sure he could block here and there, but he would ultimately avoid most of Trunks' attacks and Cell would win through attrition - in this scenario. I think, anyway. Cell's reactions seemed pretty genuine.

[@theactiveactivist515]

I say Trunks was stronger in all forms. Remember, he is a mixed breed, and it is canon that they have greater potential than full blood Saiyans. As Super Trunks, Grade 2, at least in the anime, he was actually exchanging with Cell and Blocking some attacks. He even knocked Perfect Cell around a little. Super Vegeta couldn't do that at all. Trunks didn't power up to Ultra Trunks, grade 3, until Krillin took Vegeta away. But yes, at least based on the anime, he performed better against Cell than Vegeta did as Grade 2 SSJ. Even in the manga, when cell is "beating him up" we are supposed to understand, Trunks was trying to sell that he was "trying", but he was actually not even fighting the best he could as a Grade 2 SSJ. Then this was exposed to us when Cell said he knew Trunks was trying to keep Vegeta safe.

[@AKASUKIJOE]

I always assumed when Cell said Trunk's power was "greater" thank his he was talking physical striking power and not all around power but was phrasing it to stroke Trunks ego to sort of make fun of him and make the psychological blow of beating him all the worse

[@lynxchosen9073]

Out of topic, I loved when you put shine on sideline characters that although they are not main characters, they made a difference such as, Piccolo, Uub, Supreme Kai, and Fat Buu etc.

[@douglascramer1501]

Answer: Vegeta and Goku were both instinctually doing the same training, pushing their energy to the MAX and maintaining it as long as possible, to increase stamina in the Super Saiyan Form.
Grade 2 was a result of not properly controlling all of the energy, resulting in the body transforming to accommodate the strain.
Grade 3 was a result of pushing this Failed Form to the MAX. It is similar to Frieza's 100% Full Power Form, and can only be maintained for a very brief time.
Theory: Vegeta never went into Grade 3 because he is a seasoned warrior and not a Tournament Martial Artist, so he understands what is required to survive on the Battlefield.
If he needed a NUKE, he could just wish his tail back and regain his Ozaru Form, which you could argue that the absence of, is the reason for Vegeta and Goku's rapid growth.

[@MaskedFighter]

A few things to keep in mind, Trunks assumed Vegeta never knew about grade 3, but later finds out Vegeta was actually able to go grade 3 but already knew the limitations so he chose not to use it, further evidence is when Vegeta wakes up after being knocked out he senses Trunks grade 3 vs Cell, he wasnt at all in awe of Trunks power, infact dismissing Trunks as foolish for using that form and thinking he could beat Cell, so Trunks being stronger was an assumption, was he stronger than Super Vegeta..By far! but did Vegeta have access to grade 3? Yes! So technically speaking we didnt see Vegetas full power, i'll say they were both even or theres a slight possibility that Vegeta couldve been just a bit stronger but he never used that power because he knew he wouldn't be able to hit Cell with it.The Super Vegeta transformation was better balance but just lacked the power and speed to compete against a perfect Cell, Grade 3 has thd power but zero speed making the form completely useless.

[@sergoross3964]

Grade 3 is useless in duels, but I can see it being useful in team fights, where your friends can somehow restrain opponent from moving, like raditz vs goku and piccolo fight. For example, imagine trunks going grade 3 and starting to punch cell in the back, while cell is busy holding back gohans beam. But this kind of teamwork was rarely explored in dbz.

[@jayclearmen411]

yup! that would mean exploring real tactics which are a thing often underutilized in dbz

[@socialistbatman1211]

I’d like to see an alternate timeline of Dragon Ball where the villains show up much later so they get destroyed immediately. Like if the Z fighters never encounter Frieza until whatever year the Buu saga takes place. But everyone was still able to become as powerful as they are in the main timeline. So Frieza shows up on Earth after years of searching after learning that there are Dragon Balls there (Piccolo isn’t dead in this timeline and Vegeta became a good guy after his fight with Goku without needing years of development).

[@dominiquerobinson8888]

I can’t see that scenario happening. Cause it would never take that long for Frieza to make his way to earth if he both knows about the dragonballs and the fact that vegeta is there. Plus it took that arc to Namek to introduce ssj

[@95zakariya_]

ppl always be forgetting just because vegeta didn’t go grade 3 ain’t mean can’t, vegeta is a battle genius wheras trunks was still young and erratic (ngl this hella ironic considering trunks was making the smarter decisions throughout this whole arc)

[@KurokamiNajimi]

12:35 Toei watching WRITE THAT DOWN WRITE THAT DOWN

[@EckerKyle]

19:33 lol calling out the comments is chefs kiss

[@toxicfox3242]

I'm currently doing power scaling stuff (For fun)
What form do you think Trunk and Vegeta were using in the Cell games (Grade 2 or full power Super Saiyan)?
*In the manga*

[@elgatto3133]

Grade 2

[@Andrea-dw1ps]

in the manga it seemed grade 4 but in the anime it seemed grade 2

[@UFunnyLowe]

I wanna say grade 4

[@blaketindle4703]

“Look at me, I’m Trunks. Please love me Daaaaad!”

[@blazebburnin1]

I don't really know what to think. You pointed out the things that make it seem like vegeta is stronger than trunks, but the point that confuses me is how could krillin sense power in trunks but not sense it in vegeta ???

[@raziax9603]

Unrelated to the subject matter, but I always thought that the friendship Krillin and Future Trunks developed was interesting. When you think about it.. future Trunks didn't really make any close friends with any of the other Z fighters. But who was with him when they raided and destroyed Gero's lab? Who was with him during this fight? Who got the closest to Future Trunks? It was Krillin. In retrospect, you'd think Gohan would.

[@Chronoflation]

I always assumes Trunks held back a bit around Vegeta to not hurt his pride, but also that he completely lacked the ability to really properly guage his opponents since he only ever really fought against androids he couldn't sense and training with Gohan who definitely didn't go all out against Trunks (at least not while in Super Saiyan form)

[@Chronoflation]

So I took both as being unreliable and Trunks being on par with or slightly stronger than Vegeta, since Krillin could tell Trunks was holding back in a way Vegeta wasn't.

[@decepticonxhunter4850]

You're giving Trunks far too little credit. His IQ wasn't as high as Goku or Vegeta's, but that doesn't mean he was a complete imbecile. He was able to gauge Frieza's power, and also Piccolo's after he fused with Kami. He also knew he could handle Cell's attacks long enough for Krillin to get Vegeta away from the area. He wouldn't have taken that risk if he wasn't sure about how much he could take from Cell.

[@Chronoflation]

@@decepticonxhunter4850 I mean, in terms of raw power, sure, but he's not good at guaging when people are holding back

[@dee1846]

I love the content man, looking forward to seeing more!

[@castrogonzalez614]

After Vegeta powers up against Cell he exhales, shrinking some of that muscle. To me that means that he knew not to transform too bulky

[@peacefulwarrior9518]

This is a great topic. You have been on a roll lately.

[@ab-hx8qe]

I always understood it as speed decreasing due to bulk and not weight. Kinda like how super heavy weight body builders can’t answer their phone the normal way because their muscles get in the way.

[@WeebGamer101]

That's dumb that cell got censored. Dragon Ball ain't kid friendly and shouldn't be censored just to make it appear kid friendly lol.

[@catmansweater5466]

I always thought vegeta was stronger. But held enough back. Trunks was just gullible in believing he was stronger.

[@justinarzola4584]

Vegeta was stronger since he knew the grade 3 was useless.

[@catmansweater5466]

@@justinarzola4584 I think vegeta in grade 3 would be stronger then trunks grade 3

[@justinarzola4584]

@@catmansweater5466 grade 3 would hold Vegeta back.

[@catmansweater5466]

@@justinarzola4584 you hold back

[@OrevShalom]

Vegeta and Trunks didn't work together. Had Trunks been able to fight Vegeta Vegeta could have showed Trunks it weakness. Goku figured out to stay in form because him and Gohan worked together. Had Vegeta and trunks work together. One of them may would have went level two

[@DJAmovement]

Lol I can’t believe you did the “voice”

[@hajime_87]

It's not about the weight the muscles put on their body. These are characters that can move faster than the eye can see under multiple times gravity. It's more of a power balance. Well super Saiyan 1 and grade 2 boost both power and speed, grade 3 focuses more on power.

[@Sennodev]

Funniest part of the fight when cell was like “it’s vegeta wtf how I’m losing. ITS FUCKEN VEGETA !!!” Lmao like he was gonna get that easy dub

[@michaljagielo7448]

When Vegita buffed up to fight Semi Perfect Cell, he was an Ultra Super Sayan to me. Then when Trunks fell into his transformation it was clear to me that he is better than his father...better yet, later on he buffed up even more, gaining more muscle mass. Power levels are lacking logic anyways...

[@mattys6106]

There is nothing to suggest that Vegeta could utilise the form. In fact, multiple characters are saying Vegeta deliberately DID NOT explore getting more powerful that way. So he may have gone to grade 2. And known through experience that powering up to grade 3 would bare no fruit. The only reason goku and cell even went into grade 3 was to give a visual explanation.
It’s possible that only trunks trained in grade 3. As a result, he’d be the only one able to use the power of grade 3.. even though that power could not be put to useful effect.
The answer seems clear. Trunks was stronger than Vegeta because he actually devoted time to training his grade 3. Vegeta only displayed grade 2, and was weaker in that form than trunks in grade 3.
It’s likely Vegeta COULD have transformed into a grade 3 super saiyan, but because he never actually did, he was weaker than trunks.
If the question is, how strong would a hypothetical super saiyan grade 3 vegeta have been? That’s a more interesting question

[@paliboy93]

There are strong implications that Vegeta has Grade 3. Trunks says verbatim that Vegeta chose not to do it, he knew what would happen.
The juxtaposition of the Goku and Gohan training scene is a literary tool by Toriyama to show that Trunks’ lack of experience cost him. Goku immediately abandoned Grade 3, so Vegeta probably did as well.
In the end, Grade 3 was so overwhelmingly useless that Vegeta Grade 2 could probably defeat it in a fight eventually.

[@mattys6106]

@@paliboy93 As I mentioned, goku only went into the form for a demonstration. Same with cell. I don’t think Vegeta ever transformed into a grade 3. He knew it was useless.
And if that’s the case, he was weaker than trunks. Sure, if they fought trunks may lose the fight, but trunks would still have been stronger.
The implication is that Vegeta could do it, not that Vegeta actually did. I think Vegeta didn’t pursue power that way, meaning for that brief moment in time, trunks was stronger

[@SamsarasArt]

Only because Vegeta chose not to use grade 3. When they're in the same form, Vegeta is stronger so if he used grade 3, his power would exceed Trunks as well.

[@Gabu_]

IMO, as a hybrid, Trunks probably was a bit stronger than Vegeta, but had no real battle experience aside from a couple skirmishes with the Androids and blowing up Frieza.

[@SledgedaGawd]

My Favorite OG DB-tuber keep it up Mie!

[@bitterthenu7278]

To answer the final flash question I think its rather simple. Cell only accepted the challenge of staying still because to him it was an attack from a weakling, he was going to prove once again and flex that even without his speed and technique he had just way more raw power. If vegeta went grade 3 and surpassed cells (suppresed) power by a "wide margin" then trying to tank an attack from a stronger opponent would just be stupid so he would just dodge it instead.

[@TheViper-yv6yp]

I think Cell meant Trunks was stronger than him Muscle v Muscle as supposed to power level vs power level
in one dub i heard Cell say something like "your actually stronger than myself currently...well...in just brute muscle...and muscle isn't everything"

[@clintongillespie4811]

The only reason that transformation works for Broly when he gets angry or continues to fight his power is always increasing that's the only way I can figure why booked up as he is he's not slowing down

[@lcrawfo2]

It really depends on which version you're comparing. The anime definitely makes it seem like Trunks is more powerful. He's able to go toe to toe against Cell for quite a while before he starts to lose, which is way better than what Vegeta was able to do aside from the Final Flash attack. The manga makes it clear that Trunks never stood a chance and was foolish for using the grade 3 form.

[@Lynnfield3440]

I would say trunks was stronger because he had the physical and mental power while vegeta made a small brain decision and only had physical power.

[@muff258]

Jo shoutouts from germany 🙏

[@JP-kp6xv]

I like to think that Trunks was indeed more powerful than cell's 100%, because that makes cell's win even better

[@genkidamatrunks6759]

Toriyama seem to have made it a recurring theme throughout the saga to show Trunks was often wrong and a bit naive. So him thinking himself stronger than Vegeta at this point makes sense even though there's a good chance he wasn't.

[@decepticonxhunter4850]

Trunks was often wrong and somewhat naive, but to use it as an argument against him being stronger than Vegeta doesn't prove anytihng. A person could just as easily use the argument that Vegeta historically tended to overestimate his own abilities. Trunks being naive has nothing to do with his ability to sense power lvls.

[@omaralakhras9845]

I think vegeta was stronger for 2 main reasons:
1. Vegeta was much stronger than trunks prior to entering the chamber, Trunks was shocked with vegeta's power when he fought 18.
2. Trunks probably wasted time training the grade 3 form, while vegeta spent time training grade 2, which makes vegeta's grade 2 stronger than trunks' untrained grade 2.
Plus vegeta is stronger willed and more experienced, I just don't see Trunks winning if they were to fight at full power

[@RodrigoAReyes95]

What it doesn’t make sense is that, for aliens able to move at the speed of light or faster and destroy entire planets without efforts, why does weighing a couple of pounds makes a difference in their speed and power? 😂

[@decepticonxhunter4850]

Because it makes all the difference between gaining an advantage in an actual fight. Cell bulking himself up for the sake of gaining an advantage on SSJ2 Gohan makes that clear. Being able to blow up a planet doesn't amount to squat against someone that can counterattack.

[@AuraTale]

Cell (Imperfect): 32
Cell (Semiperfect): 48
Trunks (SSJ): 48
Vegeta (SSJ): 50
Vegeta (SSJg2): 60 but Slower
Cell (Perfect): 64
Trunks (SSJg3): 72 but Way Slower
Gohan (SSJ): 60
Cell (Super Perfect): 90
Gohan (SSJ2): 100
Yeah. Vegeta beats Trunks with speed.

[@brucecook502]

I would say that yes, he was stronger in the sense that his potential to provide more perks in bulk form during a fight then Vegeta. Offensively, absolutely not, in fact I would give the advantage to Vegeta for fighting knowledge and skill and experience because their power levels were pretty equal, but the advantages or perks when transforming up, could be used to make him more resilient if attacked by certain attacks from super powerful opponents, but he would have to go in and out of this bulk transformation quickly to use it to withstand certain attacks that his lesser transformation couldn't withstand. Also, his more bulky transformation could help him finish his opponent more easily given his opponent has been weakened enough. So my conclusion is, if trunks remained in his non-bulk Super Saiyan form, he could be just as effective offensively as Vegeta since he would retain his speed, but quickly and briefly switching to his book form when defending against incredible he attacks, and if he used it to finish an enemy off, he would have certain advantages over Vegeta. In the end though, it entirely depends on the opponent and how well the opponent can deal with the non bulk versions of Vegeta and Trunks. Trunks and his powerful but slow Bulk form wouldn't do him any good if he gets killed before he can utilize this other form.

[@MarzooqPrimal416]

The bigger debate I've seen online is who is stronger kid Buu vs super Buu,although it should be a obvious answer

[@megasmit]

What if they could transition to 'grade 3' faster. Like right before they land a blow bulk up, then back down

[@leondreamcast]

Trunks wasn’t stronger in a sense because Vegeta could do the same technique the difference is he found a way to optimized Ascended level to the point he didn’t have to worry about losing his speed. Trunks later realized this after Cell defeated him and that he was wrong

[@Jugi_boy]

I always wondered if freezer 100% form affects his speed like grade 3 ssj does

[@justinarzola4584]

He was keeping up with Goku in their fight so I don't think so, maybe the form delayed his reaction which is why he got cut up by his disk or Frieza is just an idiot, probably the latter.

[@mex321]

@@justinarzola4584 I think Frieza at the point of being cut in half was a matter of these things:
1- Exhaustion
2- Arrogance
3- Frustration of a long battle he felt he was losing

[@Lynnfield3440]

I like the whole thing about more Muscle making you slower and then you have broly that is build like a freight train, not having that problem.

[@ezequielinsaurralde5058]

Base Broly Is Taller Than All Of Them, And When Broly Goes Legendary/Full Power Not Only His Muscle Mass Increases But Also His Height

[@Lynnfield3440]

@@ezequielinsaurralde5058 yeah that is the issue. At his skinniest he is build like a freight train. But he doesn't get slowed down. Meanwhile anyone else does. We probably shouldn't try to make sense of it anyways. But the whole more mass means you're slower is just very inconsistent.
Great ape should have the worst penalty off all of these, but that form doesn't get it either. It doesn't become useless because of all the gained mass in comparison to the very low amount of power gained by it. Then you're even bigger than broly, and like the empire state building already dwarfs in comparison to him.
I should probably just not try to make sense of it, but It does and will always annoy me.

[@MajeedBelle]

I don't think it's conclusive enough to say which one of them was stronger.
What I would like to know is if Vegeta had not altered the width of his final flash, could he have killed Cell? I think the answer is yes but he also destroys the earth in the process.

[@JonathanHayes-uz3ee]

probably not completely. might've reduced him to a single cell, bringing him back a bit stronger.

[@samsunofthesun]

I say no

[@nayoti5567]

Idk what it says in the manga, but in the anime it's mentioned by trunks when gohan is super sayian 2 that he has the power of grade 3 without loss of speed. So I guess you could compare the two with power. I'd like to think trunks was just close to super sayian 2 but not quite there yet.

[@decepticonxhunter4850]

Unless i'm overlooking something, Trunks doesn't make that statement in the manga. However, the eye test still makes it fair to assume the power of G3 and SSJ 2 were comparable.

[@maniacslap1623]

Also, remember Goku showed Gohan stage 3 and pointed out the weaknesses, without us actually seeing him obtain the form. Sure Vegeta could do it. Since he knew the weaknesses he didnt. Wat point would it serve? So if both Trunks and Vegeta got the same form, Vegeta wins hands down.

[@ViperRaiyu]

I wanna assume because grade 3’s muscles aren’t their natural body type, it’s why it slows people down. The muscles are probably stretching and bulging too much.

[@abrahamhawkins1754]

13:07 Cell-GG bro....

[@donovanbradford8231]

Great video as always and I would say at best because of ability and what we see Trunks and Vegeta are about even in terms if strength after the training. I would say during the Cell Games their still even, because while we don't see Piccolo in the manga take damage he obviously does given how he's drawn but in the anime Cell points out after his fight with Goku, Goku's too weak to put up much of a fight against the Cell Jr.s and while Piccolo holds his own better than say Tein or Krillin, Cell only says that Vegeta and Trunks are the only ones really holding out. This is also shown when Cell and Gohan are in the beam struggle Piccolo is the first ti jump in to try and help and he hits Cell with the Masaneko only for Cell to not move, then comes the Special Beam cannon with the same effect, vs Vegeta who blasts Cell and causes Cell to flinch and break his focus. Chances are Trunks would have done the same if he was in the fight.

[@mythicalxfightsmugen]

Youre answering questions i never knew I would be curious about! Ive always wanted to know why the Kais are no longer around what happened? Characters like Pikkon i feel couldve participated in the TOP

[@julesvox]

How about the final flash in grade 3 form? Could it have defeated Cell?

[@TheBigBlueBugofJustice]

To put it simply... no. It's literally stated by Vegeta when he confronts second form Cell (and Trunks never contradicts this), that, when in the same form, Vegeta is stronger than Trunks (though, even by Vegeta's own admittance, Trunks was still pretty close). Thing is, Vegeta COULD have boosted Super Saiyan into Grade 3 as Trunks did, and while he's never shown doing so like Gokū did, it's heavily implied that he was able to... but, unlike Trunks, Vegeta was smart and experienced enough to realize the severe downsides of that powerup, and as such stuck to Grade 2, which does suffer from such a large drop in speed. However, had he done so, he would have been stronger than Trunks in that form. But Vegeta got by by being smarter, not stronger.

[@SuperJutah]

I swear people just don’t get this… was trunks physically stronger than vegeta? Yes… would he win? No… Vegeta is more experienced to just increase muscle mass… Trunks used all his stamina to get slower which is why cell got him to concede!

[@lilmac2442]

Well isn't this missing the point? Cell didn't know anything for sure, he hypothesized Vegeta probably didn't use grade 3 because he knew its flaw, but it was nv definitively proven that Vegeta achieved grade 3. I think that's the argument most people make. Personally I would say he was smart enough to realize that, but then again, Goku realized grade 2 was a waste of time and they should focus on improving stamina in SS all tg improving the form and it's power output, creating stage 4. Vegeta did not realize this, so for all we know he was just trying to focus on strength and just nv achieved grade 3. Even after semi witnessing Goku's strength and confidence when he came out of the time chamber with Gohan, Vegeta did not achieve what they did after another year of training in the time chamber so 🤷‍♂️
Although I would bet he could go grade 3 if he wanted to, the argument still exists that it's possible he couldn't.

[@decepticonxhunter4850]

Cell did know for sure. He told Trunks to his face that he was the one that he wanted to test his Perfect Form against because he sensed the power he was hiding. Die hards will try to make up any evidence they could, but Krillin and Cell both knew that Trunks was stronger than Vegeta the whole time. Vegeta didn't sense it because his hubris led him to believe that he was the still the strongest fighter on the field.

[@veryangryboi4128]

Trunks was stronger than Vegeta due to him being a hybrid.They both went under the same training and have access to the same forms but what gives Trunks the edge is his genetics.

[@devantestephens6076]

I don’t think so. Vegeta was a veteran fighter who knew the grade 3 form limitations. Us as an audience found out about it so Goku shows Gohan the form and explains it, also while watching the fight with trunks and cell. Vegeta is a very tactical guy, even more than goku.

[@Aleiza_49]

I think Future Trunks was stronger than Vegeta in RAW POWER terms, but Vegeta was more experienced as a fighter and know how to use his ki more efficiently. Cell Saga Vegeta was very strong tho, especially during the second imperfect Cell form fights, he would have killed Cell at that point if not for him allowing Cell to reach Perfect.