Goku ISN'T A Good HERO Anymore...
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- Опубликовано: 4 окт 2024
- In #DragonBall and all the way to #DragonBallSuper Goku has been the main character - that's pretty easy to say. However, in the Moro saga, we are starting to see something about the Saiyan: he is repeating lessons he had already learned. Vegeta had this happen in the Tournament of Power and now Goku is experiencing the Cell Saga's lessons again in the Galactic Patrol arc - is it time for Goku to retire or to give up being the main character? Goku ISN'T A Good HERO Anymore... #DragonBallZ
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This video is about why Goku might not be a good main character anymore.
• Goku ISN'T A Good HERO...
• Goku ISN'T A Good HERO...
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Flat. Characters. Don't. Have. Any. Arcs. That's why they're FLAT! And honestly, so much stuff happened, he NEEDS to develop. It doesn't mean, he shouldn't influence others, but he helped them so much. We should see how Goku changed his friends and how they can help him back. Goku has a lot of traits and ideas around him, there could be such a great development.
MasakoX as a matter of respect i want to thank you for this video, becuase i know a little of how difficult it can be to open up about such a deeply emotinal topic like a formulative show from your childhood, some of my very best memories are of watching this show with my father, during a very truamatic and painful childhood, it probably helpped make me as venumous towards the shows change as i was... anyway its admrible of you to be able to point this stuff out, i know i couldint...
i becoame deeply recentful of toriama personaly for his hand in rewriting goku during super... i admit to some petty and crual unreasonable mockking of him and the series, and as iv calmed over the last 2 years and more importantly as iv changed perspective on my behavoir towards others over 2020, iv relaxed and also become detirmined to be a more fair compasionate and helpful person, i do still have some anger with toriama moving goku away from the more classic hero architype he was through the 90s and into his real canon character of being selfish and more minipulative but im at least past regarding anything toriama does as wrong and bad for the series, granted it was resuruction f remade in super and the super brolly movie that really hammered in that toriama is or at least has the capacity to be a good writer... even my jaded ass had to recognize that on some level, though i at first shrugged it off as someone else interfiering and fixing what toriama broke... again, i recognize when it comes to this series, and toriamas role in it, i have to much biased to be a fair judge... now i recognize that ^^; as for goku and co's continued development after super... ima be honest, here, i havent read the manga, i have no idea what its like at all, so i wont judge it.
I actually thought that one of the reasons people watched dragon ball, was because goku or the saiyans in general, werent heroes and that because of their selfishness they never let anything interrupt with the battles and just cared about having a good fight, wich has always given us GREAT things. In this case gokus mui against an angelic threat.
After this manga chapter i realized i was wrong and im one of the few people that actually likes that. If you think this is repetitive, well i would only say that because of this kind of actions the series has progressed many times, but i respect your point of view.
Why not have an entire arc where Goku is dealing with not being able to contribute meaningfully, like when he got the heart virus, but this time have it be due to a choice he makes. For instance; he could give into temptation and be transported into an alternate dimension to fight a strong opponent, but the guy tricks him and makes him watch as he crushes the Z fighters(Dragon crew?..whatever) and Goku is left unable to do anything about it. He'll be wracked with guilt and will have to find a way to escape and help his friends, who will understandably be be pretty pissed at him for allowing himself to be duped through selfishness.
im sorry for the wall text my good man, i can get carried away by my feelings.
Universe 9 was right...
Goku *is* a danger to the entire multiverse.
Alas, poor Bergamo. I knew him.
@@MasakoX Yeah, the Wolfman was vindicated at last
I would argue but if goku says that canon goku is a bad person, it has to be true
santa was right to
I hate to say this but it is so very true.
Toyotaro: I had Goku throw a senzu bean at Moro.
Toriyama: Nice. Now that’s an original idea.
Fans: Remember Cell?
Toriyama: Who?
As a long time DB fan, I'm really tired of Vegeta's pride getting destroyed in less than a few scenes and Goku's repeatedly stupidity.
You know, that villain that was a massive threat to the world that could only be defeated by gohans rage
Toriyama:... go-who?
@@absboodoo It isn't a stupid decision. Look at everything Goku has been through. Throughout his life, he has learned that allowing people to change is always beneficial in most cases. Goku allowing Piccolo, Tien, Yamcha, and Vegeta to change have been some of the most beneficial decisions he ever made. He even spared Buu in the Buu arc and he brought Frieza and the andriods back for TOP. I don't blame Goku for thinking that Moro can change, Goku is the same guy who changed Frieza after bringing him back for the TOP. If Goku could change Frieza, the man revered as the most evil being, then he can change anyone.
@@jantheking7028 I should probably rephrase that lol. I don't meant Goku's "stupidity" per say, but I'm tired of the same story telling over and over. Yes, you are right that it's Goku's character to act the way he is.
@Roman Francis you cant do the bulma 5 years thing any more end z is age 784 top arc borly moive and moro arc all ahppen age 780 that leva 4years lfit there no way bulma cnat see goku for 5 years so there goni to chgine that
"Dragon Ball needs a new protagonist."
*Young Adult Gohan shyly raises his hand.*
*Short-sighted executives stare menacingly at Gohan, and drag Goku's corpse back into the limelight.*
Gohan was cheated out of greatness.
He was supposed to be since the buu saga
Gohan always should’ve taken over. Goku is still a cool character but there’s nothing to explore with him anymore. Gohan is a deeper character who could far more easily go down many different paths to change up the feeling of the series a lot, whereas Goku, beyond minor things, is always gonna be pretty much Goku.
I know Gohan had his time in the cell saga but I still see growth and more exploration of his character. I don’t see that with Goku. And maybe someday switch to Pan or whoever.
But they’ll never do this. DB refuses to change or try something new. DB keeps retreading the exact same formula forever. It’s fun to watch and read but it’s lost it’s luster.
@@macdaddysauce5785 nah since the Cell Saga.
Actually, it was the negative reaction of the Japanese fans to Gohan being pitched as the main character post-Cell saga that influenced their decision to bring Goku back
Goku has never really been a hero. Akira Toriyama has stated that before.
But this recent "development" is a giant mistake.
Mr toriyama needs to accept that goku is a protagonist is just an unorthodox "hero". He always had been. And he should have known keeping a character this samey would eventually get backlash.
Edit:replace toriyama with toyataro
Toriyama is one of the few authors that don't understand hia characters...remember what he did with gohan in super.
True he isn’t a hero, but I disagree about the development
@@arqueiroXD Why do you think goku fights? He fights because he enjoys it - it just so happens the evil douchebags are the people wanting to fight.
@@abirb5651 Yes you can start with Goku being just a guy who wants to strong bad guys and have him transition into becoming a hero over the course of the series. In fact, that can be his character development.
If this was superhero movie, Goku is stuck at the stage where he got his powers but never really committing to fight crime. If he fights someone it's because they were in his way to the grocery.
Goku: *gives moro a senzu*
Everyone fighting moro: wtf why would you do that?!
Gohan: first time?
DBS Goku feels like a man going through a midlife crisis trying to recapture his youth, but with callous disregard for the impact that has on the welfare of those around him.
It's funny cuz Goku is in his 40s at this point.
@@MrTitaniumFerrous I almost forget that
That would be kinda deep though.
He literally created a scenario of danger for himself via putting a hit out on himself, so this makes sense
@Kevin Byrnes im saying the fact that he did it , is def what a hero in a mid life crisis would. create a villain for themself to feel satisfied
I like gt goku, actually took his fights seriously and not giving anyone a sensu bean
I like the part when he swallows the dragon ball
People will make fun of you but you were one of the pioneers of variety in audiences. You wanted and liked something new because the formulae was so traditional and boring. I never watched GT and dont remember Z. I watched super and I expected every episode beat annoyed me. I like being surprised but they decided like this vid shows lets do what the little kids want. BECAUSE ITS A KID SHOW
@@Revstarallstar yep, thats what they always do with kids shows these days, ruined Disney Channel, ruined Cartoon Network, Ruined Nickelodeon, kids TV sucks now
@@nocknmae your right they dumbed goku down so much you can’t even really root for him anymore
Edit: finally someone who speaks my language
@@loftgaming5031 for real, in DBZ he was stupid at times but he knew when to get serious and he wasn't a complete dumbass, in super he not only has a weird fighting boner but also he fell for that monaka costume bs
I don't know what Toyotaro is doing with Goku. The way he handled Goku is mind boggling. Just hoping that Vegeta would show up and end Moro.
Edit: That's a lot of likes. First time in my whole life.
If Goku acted like people want, Vegeta wouldn't even be alive.
I THINK and I HOPE he's setting up goku's habits finally making his abilities meaningless if he doesn't act accordingly
It might actually be the first time in a long time he can face serious consequences for his actions. One can only hope
@@Fuckjaredmilton
Yeah, Moro was introduced as a threat that could not be beaten with "punch them really, really hard," so it seems like the set-up for that.
Toriyama still writes Dragon Ball Super, Toyotaro just does the illustrations. So blame it all on Toriyama
@@ka1ock this is also a super super fair point. Well said
Akira Toriyama himself has admitted that,despite his heroism, there is "poison" in Goku's character
But in recent years , Goku has been regressing as a character.
Whereas before Goku was energetic , sympathetic and had a love for the world around him with his own naivety and careless nature being the things that put his friends in danger more than anything.
NOW ,Goku is being portrayed as a complete ,selfish ,braindead idiot who actively puts the whole universe in danger cause the plot needs him to.
So he has in essence become what modern homer Simpson and peter Griffin have become.
The thing is that regression is character development, and a quite fitting one, if one ascends to godhood it would not be rare to just feel disconnected from reality.
@@wesker100000000 It's what's known as Flanderization; taking one element of a character and emphasizing it until it becomes their entire character.
He hasn't been regressing at all. His decision to spare Moro was based on his developed sense of justice after being with merus for a long time. This is development, not regression. Goku is developing into a more justice focused character when before in the TOP he had previously stated that he didn't care about justice. I like his decision to give moro the senzu bean, this feels like the first time Goku has developed in a while. The reason why many people are reluctant to admit that this is development is because they don't like HOW he developed, but either way it is development.
@@jantheking7028 him developing would of been him killin Moro
Goku admits it to Jiren in the ToP that he's not a hero, which correlates to Akira's vision of Goku. He's a guy who loves a good fight with a strong opponent, but hates seeing the weak hurt intentionally and wants them to overcome their flaws/limitations to be good allies so he doesn't shoulder the whole burden on his own.
Giving Moro a Senzu dials up his naive flaws up to 11, which was a mistake in character writing.
He may think that even if he dies, he could still be brought back to life and Defeat Moro
Giving Moro the senzu bean makes no sense at all. Goku giving cell senzu is because he's confident in gohan potential and wants to awaken it and also passing it to next gen. Goku giving frieza energy barely enough to live while frieza is in half and in blowing planet, making the move harmless even if frieza betrays him cause he's very weak.
I mean he said he doesn't believe he is a hero of Justice. A person can be a hero but doesnt have to always fight for "justice", if you get what im saying
@@devaraft then doesn't that mean Goku giving Moro a Senzu bean because he is confident that he could beat Moro in MUI mode ?
Honestly I agree. It was such a huge writing flaw. Toyotarou, in my opinion, has proven he can't write dragon ball very well. He's had some good ideas but to me this manga is far lesser than the Super anime
Plot Twist: Goku is the final villain of Dragon Ball against the Z-Fighters due to him going insane by reaching his limit and never becoming the Strongest ever.
That would be coo as hell. But he’s based off sun wukong in that guy totally tried to destroy the god hierarchy. What if goku really is the final villain 🤦🏽♂️
That would be a great arc
Probably when he DOES become the strongest ever. With Goku having nothing that can pose a challenge to him, he would eventually be driven crazy out of boredom (Kinda like Vegito from the fan series Dragon Ball Multiverse).
Edit: That would actually be a pretty awesome final arc, but that would involve taking a RISK and letting characters other than Goku getting the spotlight.
And why do that when we can just rehash older arcs? Am I RIGHT or am I RIGHT?
It would be a rehash of turles and Goku black
@@serifthegodofinsanity8823 not really turles was nothing like goku. And well goku black was zamasu. I’m talking the real goku we know in love the guy with a peanut for a brain. Just imagine that you don’t need to make goku dark to give him villain vibes. He already has the motivation to become the strongest. Also remember goku black didn’t consider himself evil as well. Omg bro I can definitely come up with a story that can make this work.
"I made another terrible mistake."
~Goku
"'Ohhhhh I made another terrible mistake!' that's always you."
~Piccolo
the only thing goku did was ask for the tournament. even whis stated even if goku NEVER ASKED FOR ONE zeno or grand priest wouldve eventually did it anyway.
@@NobleOneA259 you know this is from TFS right?
@@NobleOneA259 That's a cop out. Zeno didn't even remember it, and before you say it, the tournament was actually worse than just letting some universes get culled. If anybody else would've won, even universes that weren't involved would've been erased just because one individual would've wished for something different. Heck, Grand Priest (iirc) tried to trick 17 by asking him if he was sure instead of just letting the dragon grant the wish.
At least in the original DragonBall, he knew when to take someone out...
That isn't even a lesson he needed to learn.
Tell us, how many was it again?
@@Crystalphoenix buu,freezer,cell,og piccolo many it was
@@jagtech490 Just those.
@@psykos233 wasn't it most of the red ribbon army, tambourine, drum, king piccolo, raditz with help, yakkon, buu and freiza.
He even somewhat acted heroic since he always seemed to help out people wherever he went
DBS Goku is Unironically becoming Abridged Goku, but without the satire or humor
Fantastic take; facts
Abridged Goku but nobody calls him out
Facts
A bottomless pit of hunger?
I thought at least with Cell you could kinda try to justify it. It was Goku's unusual attempt to push Gohan since that's how he believed Gohan would win the fight. It (kinda?)backfired and Goku seemed pretty shocked and tense about not considering how his own son would react, eventually trying to redeem himself by blowing up Cell.
With Moro it... It feels so much cheaper and dumb. The writers already knew about the poor reaction to the senzu in the Cell saga, right? It's kinda disappointing, really hurts the character for me.
Yeah, and Goku paid the price for it by dying for 7 years in that arc.
I highly doubt such a consequence will occur this time.
Honestly, I'm not sure that Toyotaro is really aware of how much people hated the senzu bean bit in the Cell saga. Toyotaro was an active fan in the 90s and early 2000s, when the internet was still in his infancy and there was not social media to amplify fan response. Not to mention that he would only be aware of Japanese feedback, which tends to be much tamer than Western feedback. Especially considering that English-speaking fans were behind the curve compared to other non-Japanese markets at the time. And even then, nowadays that feedback must go through countless filters before that feedback reaches him or Toriyama.
At best, he must have a vague awareness that "some fans didn't care much for the senzu bean bit in Z", but he didn't know that fans consider it Goku's worse character moment in the entire franchise, and even those who give it a pass consider it one of those things that shouldn't happen twice under any circumstances.
And piccolo lectured him and he actually began to understood
The senzu bean didn’t hurt his character imo. If anything it made him look more badass. And it made sense why he gave him one, but Toyotaro could’ve written it better.
@@KaiserMattTygore927 Paid for it? Looks more like it was a reward since he's able to stay immortal and train to get SSJ3.
"Hey king you dropped this"
*hands the villain a sensu bean*
Goku's penalty should be to become an Angel himself; completely forbid him from fighting.
That would actually be hilarious
A rule that would vanish 3 chapters later. Because all Dragon Ball can be about now is "How goku beats everything"
I could see it playing out like this:
Goku: becomes Angel
Cosmic Threat: appears
Sign: You can't fight this threat because you're an Angel.
Goku: "This sign can't stop me because I can't read!"
He'll just keep bothering the omni king attendants or even the grand priest 24/7 lolol
@@lazilyymadelooks like something Tfs would do.
My best-case wishlist for where Dragon Ball can go after the Moro arc:
-Goku is confronted by his friends, causing a temporary breakup of the Z-fighters.
-Whis seals Goku's god ki until such a time that he is worthy of holding the power of the gods.
-Vegeta retains his god ki, and Beerus takes him off world to start grooming him to be the next god of destruction, which Vegeta has...Mixed feelings about.
-Gohan decides that he can't trust his father to always do the right thing, and travels to to the supreme kai's planet in order to start tapping into new magic abilities.
-Piccolo goes to New Namek to reconnect with his race, and starts connecting with their old ways to create new techniques and powers.
-Tien understands he can't be as strong as the rest of the fighters, and returns to training others, but reconnects with a familiar face.
-Goku has a low point, talks with Roshi and Krillin, and then takes time to train Broly. During this time he sees Broly accidentally destroy a moon during training, and now, without god ki, Goku has a sudden moment of seeing the scale of power he had from a perspective of not being strong enough to stop it.
...And we then take a break from them leaving them to their own separate paths, whilst Beerus takes Vegeta to Universe 6 for a favor to Champa.
All of this seriously sounds perfect, especially having Vegeta be trained to be a God of Destruction while Goku is left to reflect on who he is and who he wants to become. I'd love to see an episode mostly just showing Vegeta's thoughts on that.
I think Uub ought to be introduced some time soon as well. I'm not sure how the dynamic could go between the cast, but I think if Toriyama reinvented him in a way similar to how he recreated and developed Broly, it could be amazing. Even having those two interact in interesting ways could be fun. Maybe too much to juggle? Idk. I'd like to see it.
i love everything about this, we need more consequences in Super, characters have to reflect on their actions
This is cool. Very cool.
Half of the stuff on this list would be like...no,
The Z-fighters I doubt would even care So long as Goku got the job done in the end they’ve never been upset with Goku for making a dumb decision past the moment he did it.
Like it would not feel dragon ball, these are ideas that in other stories would work, idk if it would feel dragon ball in this one tho imo
@@JakeTylenol at this point I'd rather have that then the typical "strong villain, lose fight, trains, vegeta loses, goku saves the day. If vegeta is the one to defeat moro he needs to scold goku for acting naive and that he should know when people can't be redeemed. Even whis seems disappointed that goku is playing around instead of doing what he needs to do
I agree Goku’s character has regressed in the most recent chapter. He’s repeating the same mistakes from the Cell Arc. They should give Goku character development.
At this point there is no saving gokus image
Or y'know, actually giving the others time to improve and give a bit more spotlight to them, especially gohan since y'know, he's supposed to be the next coming of goku, before the buu arc of course
And in the cell saga his mistake was not knowing Gohan isn’t a fighter. And Gohan still sucked it up and beat Cell. In this, Goku pulls the same thing, but this with no Gohan to defeat Moro, just himself.
It's not even just the latest chapter it's most of super. Goku has never been superman but super turned him stupider and even less considerate. The man has risked the ENTIRE Universe multiple time just because he "wanted to fight strong guys" despite all of his friends begging him not to. In any other story Goku would be the Super Villan.
I disagree, his character hasn’t regressed
''punching trees into perfect blocks''
so you're telling me Goku invented Minecraft?
He must be *VERY* smart then
After the battle with Moro, taking a hard look at all they've been through, the Z fighters get together and determine it's no longer beneficial for Goku to be on earth for a while believing that he's far to reckless and has lost his way. When Goku hears this from his closest friends and family, this would be the first time we would get to see Goku's heart TRULY break. He then goes to king Kai for guidance. King Kai reminds Goku about Broly and how he might be able to help. He finds Broly and discovers he's have difficulty controlling his power ever since his father passed. Training Broly, Goku learns why Broly is so eager to master his powers. Broly is going to become a father and doesn't want to endanger his family. Goku than would have a deeper understanding of why he was told to leave earth. His love for fighting was stronger than his love for the universe, the earth, and above all else, his family. Broly was the opposite. I'll leave you to imagine the rest. 😋
Ooh I like this idea, very interesting nice work man
Big brain time
What if Goten didn’t want his father to leave and ended up going after him to vampa it would be nice development for him and give him some bonding time like when goku and Gohan went in the chamber. I also like the idea of Broly calling Goten a little kakarot, basically what we never got in gt
Its crazy when fans can easily be more creative and interesting than the actual writers.
That is too deep and too good to expect from DB at this point. But hell they could use that if they wana try and push Goku into the mentor role for Uub even though it's still just a baseline of wanting to fight some one stronger.
The only thing I pray for, is that at the end of this arc everyone comes at Goku for his stupid behavior. Hell even Whis was getting annoyed at Goku for what he was doing. There is alot about the arc I like, but Goku aint one of them. A win for Vegeta would be nice and a chance for Goku to actually reflect on what a massive fuckup he caused. Will it happen? Hell if I know, but I can hope.
Tbf, it's the writers Toriyama and Toyotaro who should get all the heat. Goku is a "victim" of bad storytelling.
@@techwizpc4484 no Its not bad writing its actually good and I like where this is going. Its not the first time goku has done something as dumb as this and hopefully this time he realizes he loves fighting people at full strength just a bit too much
@@steavy4429 Yeah if goku FINALLY realizes he's foolish for putting millions of people in danger for the sake of one criminal and a 'good fight', the arc would be redeemable and would make the future arcs more interesting to see.
@@steavy4429 50+ years of fighting and that's all the conclusion he comes up with? That's one slow-ass character development if you ask me.
Besides, he already knows how saiyans behave when it comes to fighting. He's been told about it already decades ago. They are a warrior race. The challenge for his character is to better himself and not function like a weapon all the time that just shoots indiscriminately (i.e. making decisions without thinking of the consequences like giving enemies sensu beans).
He got away with it this time but that's only because the writers were being generous with him and being unfair to the other characters especially to the villains. Goku has MUI but Moro also has angelic powers plus his own powers and he was healed so he should be ahead of Goku.
@@techwizpc4484 Toyotaro, maybe since it sounds like he is the lead on this. And yeah while Toriyama has major issues with writing, he is also the guy who turned OG Broly into Super Broly who is 100% better than his other half. This wont ruin my love for DBZ, but Goku stopped being my favorite character a long time ago.
The problem is Goku is that he's become a selfish prick. Even as originally written in Japanese Goku was infinitely for heroic than he is in DRS now. It's even worse if one grew up on the original English Dub, where Goku was rewritten to be far more heroic than he was in Japanese. It's not even about Goku being dim, naive, and obsessed with battle, Goku has always been these things yet being a great heroic character because he never risked lives when he had a choice, but now he's shifted to being almost actively a villain.
It would be interesting if the story actually aknowledged this. But no toriyama just wants to.keep turning goku into even more of a moron
@@MrInuhanyou123 I'm thinking it's deliberate on Toriyama's part. He wants to switch to someone else as a main character, which he tried to do with Gohan but Goku's popularity wouldn't let him. So he's going out of his way to make the fans hate him in order for the fans to allow Goku to be retired.
@@immortalfrieza I thought that Goku not being replaced at that time had more to do with Toriyama, himself, being too attached to Goku, no?
Have...have you actually watched the original? Or at least remember it? Goku has ALWAYS been like this. He never risked lives? He didn't seem to give a damn about letting Vegeta or Piccolo go to get a better fight later.
Goku has never given a damn about anything other than getting a better fight, he cares deeply about friends and family but he doesn't really give much of a damn about being a hero or even responsible. It's more noticable now perhaps because the scale of his powers is infinitely greater.
But that is actually ok with me, if he actually started to care about his powers or the consequences of it then I would say get that mophing Superman bs out of here.
Furthermore I never liked Goku because he was a stupid hero, I liked him because he was strong, cool and entertaining, I fail to understand why people look for things other than cool fight in Dragon ball, it's honestly baffling.
@@elmasterx2 dont be silly. Goku had tons of elements to his character back then including those you mentioned. The problem is that all those other elements have been swept away. Hes become one note with only one reaction to every event and the plot seems to go back and forth to try and justify this.
It's not just Goku who is getting boring it's that fact that the story always ends up on Earth. DBS has expanded the Universe to the point where we should be exploring more of.
You're absolutely right after the revelation of Angels , gods, omni king, multi verse, 4 other universe who didn't participate in TOP, 6 exterminated universe, Universe 6 saiyan, broly. What about OTHER CHARACTERS DEVELOPMENT
Leave GOKU for sometime. Focus on other characters
We are stuck at good guy saving from bad guys to protect earth is pretty boring now.
For me TOP was new and interesting arc for Dragon ball
@@Ghost-pb4ts speaking of that ...ppl forget that there was other universes that didn’t participate in the tourney like u said which we can believe there are other fighters stronger then Jien but nope...let’s have all the fights on earth with random dangerous enemies that was never mention until now. Also at everybody current power level, even Goku and Vegeta fighting Broly should had did a lot of damage to the earth so we should have more fights on other planets or dimensions
Not only that but this whole arc has literally been a hash of the Frieza fight and Cell fight
Maybe I'm missing something but Frieza, Majin Buu, 6, and the ToP all ended off of the planet earth. Giving a pass to Vegeta and prior since we didnt know about space we are left with Cell which was created on Earth and Beerus who visited the planet akin to the Saiyans. The issue is really this one Arc, Ress F, and Broly.
@@DoamBot IRL if he uses instant transmission wisely he can dump all his enemies to the sun or a black hole
ANY PLACE EXCEPT EARTH WHERE LIFES is NOT AT STAKE
Biggest buff
The problem is that Goku is too much of a "cash cow" to be safe to do meaningful things with his character. The casual fan base that funds Dragon Ball would reject Goku if he went too far outside his box. Goku is tied to his shallowness in order to be so influential.
Thats part of why characters like Vegeta/Trunks/Piccolo even Krillin go through such major changes. They don't sell as well, but even Vegeta is becoming more static as his popularity rises.
Toei is unwilling to push to far with their cash cows.
In a way Vegeta is static and not at the same time. He's not in the sense that by now he has mostly fully adapted to Earth and its customs and he has settled more into being a family man, rather than just using Bulma for the training chambers, but he is in the sense that he has re-ignited the grudge and rivalry he has against Goku and is still determined to top him even though he admitted he was the best already. On one side, they're afraid of more mature Goku, but they're also a afraid of a non-rival Vegeta.
@Wilson Nascimento the problem is that dont listen to the fans... those kind of companies dont last too long lol
I don’t think that’s true at all,plenty of people even goku fans feel his character is stale
Maybe the real problem is that, eventually, all stories need to end, and Dragonball is afraid to end.
It was ended for years though. You’d think that with all of the years past that if they’d make something it’d be at least decent, eh?
i still remember when it did after the z/gt fatigue and i say i think the post-years were some of the most memorable years of dragon ball as a series to the international audience
GT should have been that end
Dragonball should've never progressed past the cell saga
Naruto and boruto did better after story by far than dbz and dbs . Not everyone like boruto changed about naruto but it work and you can feel naruto and sasuke are not the 2 main characters of the story .
Is funny how Vegeta character developed and learned from his mistakes since the Cell Saga, yet Goku is still the same and sometimes even worse.
Then explain how Vegeta ended up making the same mistake against Moro that he did against Frieza.
@@decepticonxhunter4850 because the writing in this arc is dumb and is just copying off previous arcs. This arc shows regression in both vegeta and Goku for no reason
Goku and vegeta is pretty much victims of bad writing😐
@@highgih4655 Goku didn’t even end up winning by himself🤦🏾♂️, I swear the last three arcs did the same thing.
Oh great, not only is this a repeat of Cell Games Goku, this is a repeat of that controversy from a while back that Goku is not a righteous hero.
Ofcourse he is not a righteous heroe, he never was. But i actually like that, i prefer this goku than a hero goku.
Don't mind him not being a righteous hero. I do mind him being a moron who apparently doesn't learn from his past mistakes.
@@Ryuthedeathangel But many of these are also past successes. Piccolo, Vegeta, Buu. All enemies who threatened Earth who he built respect with (nevermind Tien and Yamcha.) A mix of his condidence that he can win, and that some people HAVE mended there ways make things understandable to me.
@@keirgomcginlay2044 True
@@keirgomcginlay2044 also he didn’t give Moro a senzu bean just because he gave it to him as a pretense that after he did moro would go back to the galactic prison
Goku in db and z felt like a character. He had his selfish side but he was a good dude who was still considered a hero and would help those who needed it.
Toriyama in super seems intent on trying to portray him as a moron who doesnt care about much of anyone or anything outside of food at fighting, the most blandest of shounen protagonist traits. Which clashes directly with things like xeno goku who is actually an continuation of z goku in maturity and nuance of character.
It's Toyotaro the DBS author
@@kevinkonneh9640 toriyama said himself he wanted goku to just be a dumb idiot who only fights. So the writer seems to be doing what he wants
GT Goku and Xeno Goku Is Far More Matured Than Super Goku
I'd say it's a number of factors. The industry today has shifted, like catering to faster and faster pacing. You see it in America as well. It's story by way of spectacle. Another would be how Toriyama isn't writing the template manga to translate into the moving images like it was in the day, constrained by savvy editors. He writes up a few notes and ideas in his manuscripts that is then translated into anime and manga. Far less detail in the conversion process. Just two off the top of my head. I think Toriyama is too trapped by his fame and clearly wants to retire, but is too legendary for people to let go. Same thing happened to George Lucas. No wonder he sold it.
@@saberiandream316 hey saberian dream. Nice seeing you here. I definately agree, you can see it in the work itself.
After reading the latest chapter, I realized I was reliving the Cell Games.
Guess next chapter Goku is gonna break his arm or something
And the cell games was a representation of Frieza fight.
@@deathglock496 Not really
What if Goku teleports himself and the planet to King Kai's place and blows the planet and Moro up. That would be hilarious.
And also dumb I know
@@ZakJordan98 Moro broke his hand so does that count?
This to me is the result of continuing to use Goku and Vegeta as the main characters despite their characters journeys feeling like finished in Cell and Majin Buu Arcs and not much else to do with them because that's when Dragon Ball was about to end and there was nothing more for them to accomplish or character development to go through because truth be told they already have done it in Dragon Ball and Z. This to me is a fundamental problem with Super because it felt like it was made just to capitalize on Battle of Gods without any plans for what to do with these characters and what stories there are going to be and it resulted in characters like Goku and Vegeta regressing and doing the same things and arcs that exists just because with no interesting story, little character development and lackluster villains/antagonists.
Same applies to gohan as well. Meanwhile goten and trunks are completely sidelined.
Well it's because most people including me just wouldn't feel comfortable with it unless goku and vegeta remained the main characters everything he did to make Vegito happen was so Goku and Vegeta could continue to be the main characters because the fans wanted that I'm all for others characters being relevant again but I still want Goku and Vegeta to be the MC's.
Dude I totally agree with what you said. There is nothing left for them but to climb a power level ladder.
I think DBS still had room for more character progression but it usually fails or treads old ground.
@@ASHtheSLUGCAT it does have a goldmine in the form of the other z fighters especially the weaker ones and piccolo. Gohan would too.
The problem is that everyone of us grew up while Dragonball didn't.
@@rpllrp And even then he story was already becoming garbage, if the manga ended with the Freeza saga it would have been perfect, even Goku learnt something there.
@@CharroArgentino yet here we are. Good thing your dogs h i t opinions dont matter to the continuation of the series. Like honestly just go watch something else and quit telling people that the series should be over cause you dont like it. So ignorant
100% agree, I’ll even say that the series keeps going backwards while we keep going forward. Well there still people who fanboy over this series like it was the best thing ever, but anyway, everyone has their opinion
@@zerusiitv5746 He's stating an opinion that most people can agree with, if the series ended at the Frieza saga it would of been arguably the best time, I personally think the Cell saga would of been perfect, but he didn't attack you for your enjoyment, just stated an opinion, so calm down some.
@@blazingfury057 that most entitled americans agree with* once again, I for one am glad americans have no say so on the continuation of the show. As you said it would of ended early on. I would of missed out on tons of awesome dragonball content. If you dont enjoy peg off and go find something else to enjoy since it's so bad now haha.
Remember that one time Goku gave Moro a Senzu Bean? Lol
Yeah, back when he was named Cell. 😂
Ah yes. I remember it like it was yesterday. Those where the days.
I don't want to talk about it..
Remeber that time he gave up his planet to a goat
Pepperidge Farm remembers.
Goku as a character had his chance here in Super to be reinvented. Having him reach divinity could and should have changed him to a more mature and enlightened character. Have him explore his universe, his environment in a way he hadn't since his childhood across the multiverse. Maybe learn the importance of who grandpa Gohan was in his old age. I think once Goku reached ssj God permanently, that should have been his moment of pure enlightenment and the end of his character, possibly defeating Beerus. That's when Goku then can become the mentor figure, along with Vegeta. Have him actually teach his techniques from over the years and move to the next generation
Don't you mean have Goku teach other peoples techniques? :P
Would be great to see him become the mentor, some of the best scenes in Z was him teaching Gohan in the Time Chamber.
@@KaiserMattTygore927 yeah. and you can have an excuse for him to become a mentor to make others as strong as him to give himself a challenge
I would like to see Goku train Goten.
Well, _I_ would just focus on what's actually canon if you happen to know about how Super was _written_ etc. It's probably better that the anime ended where it did, _but_ if they were so continue clearly certain changes should be made, and I'd imagine it would be hard for Akira Toriyama to just _take_ it back.
He is too reoccurring of a main character and that's the issue. Gohan and Goten should have been the main protagonists in Buu Saga.
@@10tailedbijuu Gohan was planned to take over as protagonist. What are you talking about lol
@@10tailedbijuu gohan was litterally planned to be the protaginist. And was even the STRONGEST unfused character in dragon ball Z
Only reason Gohan isnt now is cause Fans complained about it.
Now they complain about goku.
Moral of it, the fanbase will Never be fully satisfied, just enjoy the series or dont watch/read
@Tanner Phillips Tell him again 👏👏
Pass the torch to the next generation. Series that never do that tend to stagnate.
Say what you want about the Majin Buu saga but I think that was the best and most mature iteration of Goku we’ve ever had. Feels like he lost a few chromosomes in Super
Yup he sure was, I remember the time he fought Vegeta even though he was warned not to because their energies would awaken buu, and remember the time he refused to fuse with Vegeta again so they can finally finish buu.
@@deathglock496 im just checking your being sarcastic right
@@addex1236 duh.
@@deathglock496 hey in this day in age never under estimate how stupid some can be so thats why I checked
He was pretty serious against Piccolo too 🤙
“What Goku isn’t a good hero?”
*charging a death beam* “He never has been.”
Akira said that Goku wasnt supposed to be a hero in the first place
Idk, he seemed pretty heroic as a kid, a wandering hero but a hero nonetheless
@@Xeno-The-Wanderer yes but I guess his puberty was battle lust.
Yeah I don't see much change in him, he's just a standard Saiyan, but with a nice disposition, he's always been a violence addict.
@@Xeno-The-Wanderer the English dub actually changes alot of what goku says as they take artist liberty in translation. Japanese Goku at least a Japanese goku was a bit less heroic.
Honestly, Goku's reign as protagonist should've ended with Cell. They had an opportunity for Gohan to step up, and that would've been SO natural, but they let it pass by. Now I feel like they're kind of stuck with him. There's not anyone else that can replace him without it being weird.
Gohan was never going to be a protagonist. It’s not in his nature. The dudes such a hard core pacifist if something isn’t threatening his life every five minutes he plummets in power.
@@cryamistellimek9184 I mean, I think that part of his character arc was addressed with Cell. It felt like he understood in those moments that, even if he didn't like fighting, he still had to sometimes. And honestly, I don't think having a protagonist that isn't super into fighting like that is a bad thing. Gohan's a different character, with a lot more nuances to him than I think his father had, but i can only see that being a good thing. He may not LOVE combat, but he DOES have avery strong sense of responsibility, and I think that's plenty for them to work with. And besides, it's not like he hasn't shown he's capable of doing what he needs to do to take up the mantle. I'd argue that between him replacing Goku in the Future Trunks timeline, and him making the decision to continue his training in Super, he's more than proven himself in that respect.
@@maxgosselin62 this. He kinda got a mini development with that where android 16 told him that sometimes fighting is a necessity
Actually, it wasn't natural, since right before the fight with Cell, they make it a point to frame the battle as something Gohan has to overcome if he wants to continue with his scholarly pursuits. This wasn't some imaginary job he was to inherit, but a wall stopping him from having a (relatively) normal life. He doesn't want to take after his father as a fighter. It only SEEMS natural because Gohan was a proxy character for so many kids back then and they wanted to him to be awesome (not helped by the Boo arc going back and forth on this), and that it's a worn out cliche to have the kids of the hero conveniently follow the same path as them.
@@cryamistellimek9184 Just because Gohan is pacifist does not mean you cannot evolve him into good protagonist or keep him relevant. Just because Gohan doesn't have same drive in fighting does not make him weak. While he hates fighting, he knows its necessary. What drives him into fighting is the people he loves.
"The Videl is in the details"
Bloody genius.
Came across this comment the moment he said it! 😂
Holy crap, how did I never see that anagram?!
@@theStormWeaver It's an intentional pun since her father is Mr. Satan
@@Kaigai_Kaiju I may be dense, but i'm not *that* dense :P
And it's not a pun, it's an anagram.
@@theStormWeaver Of course it's an anagram. But it's also a pun, an intentional joke that Toriyama made like with all of his naming conventions.
Goku isn't a Superhero. If he was, he wouldn't let enemies roam free.
tell that to the dc universe
Just because he isnt a superhero doesnt mean he isn't or wasn't a hero
@@kykystars He isnt
@@yaboitrae45 Then at this point, he probably does not care for the Earth at all
Uh... might want to take a look at most Pre-90's American comics again, pal.
"No dragon balls can revive Merus!" Me: *Sweats in Super Dragon Balls and super expected plot device*
And hoooo boiiii
If you were right...
His character isn't even on the neutral path anymore, he's going backwards.
its one thing to let the villain live to be imprisoned, but giving him the ability to instantly heal up is stupid, it was stupid in the Cell saga too (and Goku actually paid the price for it)
Doubt Goku will face any consequences for this retread.
with how toei wants goku to be, goku won't face any consequences.
At least in the Cell saga, he had a backup plan. He just failed to notice that plan would backfire because he never thought about how his son was not a fighter. He only thought about how strong his son was and how his son snapping would give him the power to beat Cell.
Thing is in the cell saga goku was trying the make a point and had too much faith in gohan. To us it was stupid, however in goku's mind it was a good idea. That's a character flaw. And like you said it did backfire. It was a good punishment for a flaw. Now in super he's is repeating stuff he already learned
He should've atleast let moro go to prison without being healed
I’ve seen a meme once that kind of relates to this. Childhood is admiring Goku, Adulthood is Respecting/Understanding Vegeta.
Honestly, if I had to choose a storyline to succeed Goku’s I’d go with Xenoverse. Craft a new protagonist from the Time Patrollers have them train under Goku and/or Vegeta, and then send them on ridiculous Dragon Ball esque Rick and Morty adventures.
Wilson Nascimento
Most likely. Don’t know about as the main protagonist, but there should be more than a few FR patrollers. That’s how it is in game at least. Personally I’d go with a Human. It would be awesome to see a Human keep up with all these demigods.
What do you guys think about Beat becoming Goku’ successor in a New Dragonball series?
Eric
I’d be fine with it, albeit a little disappointed. I kinda got used to the idea of Uub being his successor. However I’ve always just been along for the ride, so I’m fine with anything so long as it’s good storytelling.
i turned myself into a oc, trunks!
cancerous troll
I turned my OC into a Human with a red cape......That’s it.
"I don't consider myself as a hero or anything" - Son Goku Tournament Of Power
Yeah Goku is kind of that level 30 epic character from DnD that just slew a god, saved the universe and then goes back to fight Goblins and rescue some one's dog.
Again, I'm certain it's intentional.
Toyo WANTS us to be angry at Goku.
The main thing making me thing this so is LITERALLY EVERYONE CALLING HIM OUT.
From a corporate standpoint, if the writers want to redirect the series to focus on other characters (Toriyama might be getting tired of Goku too he's just not saying anything), then it's either they write a separate series for those characters they want or wreck Goku's character beyond repair so other characters can come into the spotlight. This is assuming the higher ups will concede to the changes.
Dragon Ball was always written in a way that would annoy fans to make it exciting.
@DatrixTSW2012The thing is, a good writer plays with the emotions of the audience relative to a character.
All the behavior of the characters reacting to Goku being in a similar way to how we are reacting to Goku (IE: angry/annoyed), is indicative that Toyo wants us to feel that way at Goku.
@@Alovon Even if they makes us angry at Goku, Gohan still have no relevant in Dragon Ball Super manga
@DatrixTSW2012 A friend of mine who looks into stuff says that Toriyama's original ideas have been almost constantly rejected by the higher ups. I think he's been wanting to end the series. They won't let him.
His powers are “evolving” but him as a character isnt, he doesn’t learn from mistakes
But tbh i dont watch DBZ for “amazing storytelling” its just an enjoyable watch
Agree, dbz it's good but not very good/masterpiece
DBZ should've been a game instead of anime to be honest since it does not have a story
Admit that the stakes don't seem like anything anymore
I think to many people who even know of the dub changes and read and watched the original manga and anime, it feels inconsistent is the problem.
and THIS is why I say the writers should do something with Goten and Trunks that isn't Gotenks
That would be nice. It is some untapped "MARKETING!"
Man we all want both of them to be the protaginists now that goku just put gasoline in the fire that is moro
Agreed. They really should've focused on the Next Generation theme the Buu Saga was pretending to go for.
Having Goten and Trunks actually look their ages would be cool too.
And gohan
That and do right by Gohan already.
the casual tfs reference in the intro 🤣
He is, or at least, was a member of TFS and someone who worked on DBZ Abridged
@@firefi1960 We know
@@firefi1960 Lol bro i know. I grew up watching dbza ...
I feel like Luffy from One Piece is Goku done right, or at least better, at one point Luffy himself says he’s not a hero and doesn’t want to be one to make it clear to the audience.
One Piece also handles the supporting cast so much better. Luffy may be present most of the time but he isn't shoehorned into other characters plotlines unless he is necessary. Dragon Ball on the other hand will give a small morsel of importance to someone else and then drag out the cash cow that is Goku. GT should have been Pan's journey, the Moro Arc should be Vegeta's win and so on and so forth.
@@Keybolt2005 It also helps that each member of the crew has their own distinct goal they want to achieve that goes well with Luffy’s dream. Zoro wants to the best swordsman, Nami draw a map of the world,and Sanji finding the All Blue are all possible when traveling with a guy who is trying to become King of the Pirates.
What’s Krillian, Gohan, or Vegeta goal for the end of the series? Besides becoming stronger than Goku in Vegeta’s case.
@@animeguy1101 I agree 100% but it just makes the point that the other Dragonball characters are afterthoughts which is a damn shame.
Goku said the same thing tho. Goku>>luffy imo
Dude Luffy is a Pirate pirates aren’t heroes 😂
i think goku is getting bored. his strength is increasing exponentially, especially since fighting beerus, and i think hes acting out and wanting to fight stronger and stronger people and eventually this is gonna lead to him fighting angels or the grand priest or choosing to become the g.o.d just so he can fight incredibly strong people.
Goku isn’t getting bored. He just isn’t growing as a character. He has had ZERO character development . He is LITERALLY the same Goku from the Cell Saga. Oh , except his hair is bLuE... fanboys will defend him to the death and flame anybody that criticizes his garbage character.
@@mugiwara4604 Goku isnt really supposed to develop much, its just that toyotaro is handling him badly
His final battle shall be morphing into Screwattack Superman.
Me: I'm sorry Goku, but it's better that we see new people
Goku: You don't want new flashy forms and weird higher stakes... **SLAM**
What do you want?!?!?!?!
@quinton cornelius or maybe continuing it with another main character, Uub
It could be risky yeah, but I prefer the risk than another retelling of something
There's only so many times we can see your hair turn a new color before it gets old, Goku.
@@carlox3002 I agree I would watch a story about uub
What I want from Goku, is for them to take the same character interpretation he had in the Battle Of Gods movie.
higher stakes? News to me lol
I have noticed a trend that a real issue with dragon ball really seems to be the wrap ups in sagas. Zamasu arc and Moro for example. Like when they get to the end they just never seem to quite know how to stick their landing.
Both arcs I enjoyed until the end. Zamasu Arc had a bad ending, and the Galactic Prisoners Arc isn't that good anymore
The end to the Zamasu Arc was the worst bailout in the series in my opinion.
@@iantubeism I'm still confused on how Zamasu became the Universe, and how Trunks got all of that energy
@@SomeoneWhoExistsHereOnEarth don't think about it'll make your head hurt.
@@deathglock496 it was never about making sense, only about giving people a cool background wallpaper and selling figures
Goku was never a hero, just a man who enjoyed fighting.
He needs a reason to fight. Fighting for the sake of it is boring. The writers should make it more personal. Goku has no goals, no stakes besides earth’s existence.
@@mpeacraft8585 Goku is only protecting earth cuz he grew up there. If hed be raised on a dif planet he would’nt care. Also, he has a reason. He want,s to fight and train to become stronger. At the beginning Goku didn’t even love Chi Chi he didn’t even know what marriage was and didn’t care. He just felt kinda bad for Chi Chi.
@@tucksik3065 It’s more of a writing problem. He’s already proven himself to be stronger when he survived frieza. Goku could have ended his quest right there. Giving him and Cell energy to live another day proves Goku is just fighting for the sake of it. When out of nowhere an even more powerful villain than the previous continually shows up. Goku’s goal is external rather than internally motivated. Without villains he’d have no personal drive.
@@mpeacraft8585 Goku has a goal and DBS is giving him that. If you play Budokai 3 Goku's storymode and complete it, the dialogue says "His primary goal was a selfish one; driven by a desire to fight stronger opponents" DBZ focused a little bit on his goal but for DBS it's nonstop
@@billyj.causeyvideoguy7361 If you’re referring to dragon ball z than he needs a reason. The tone is completely different. The original db was comedy and knew what it was. There’s nothing comedic about Dragon ball z and super.
Honestly getting a series following the cast of universe 6 would be amazing. They’ve laid out the groundwork for it tremendously already
You want to see tingly back saiyans as main protagonists?
@@CJ-qv4sd yes at least for a bit, i didn’t get all pissy about that like everyone else.
@@CJ-qv4sd Ah yes because tingly back Saiyans working differently is far worse than Goten and Trunks just... Doing it.
But honestly i love the U6 cast, i'd adore a story about any of the main characters, the saiyans are cute and Hit could be so cool!
@@tessaapeca4358 I don’t hate them I want to see more of U6 Saiyans but some fans might hate them as main protagonists
@@CJ-qv4sd Still not as big as a blunder as giving sensu beans to your enemies. The main series is getting wrecked like hell right now because of this latest chapter. Besides U6 has a lot of room to grow with more potential for characters. The story of U6 can be expanded laterally instead of vertically. U7 has been racing to the top to the point of ridiculousness with god level powers that it's gotten meaningless because that's the only direction it can go. Lateral expansion means exploring new places, characters, concepts, powers, etc. while improving their powers slowly. A single universe has infinite space to explore. U7 went too fast from SSJ3 to SSB and now MUI in just a few arcs that if Zeno is the last frontier they are probably close to hitting the ceiling, given how Goku has now reached MUI. They moved so fast even Vegeta's SS Royal Blue was barely utilized. With transformations that powerful one would think it will take decades to reach each.
A lateral expansion with U7 right now would be jarring because fans aren't used to it.
Finally, a U6 series can be a thing without having to interact with U7 from now on. It can be it's own literal separate series. In case a problem, story-wise, happens to either one it would won't affect the other.
I'll have to repeat what I have been sayong for years: we need a time skip. We need to go past the end of Z and bring Uub into the picture. Let Uub, Goten, Trunks and Pan be important. Let Goku and Vegeta take over the mentor role.
Them removing uub and not letting any character age pissed me off
And gohan and piccolo to be relevant again
What, you think characters like that will get screen time? I wish. They'll most likely join the bench along guys like Tien...
Exactly. There is nowhere else to go after this arc it's ridiculous already to throw out even more and more powerful enemies and still have it take place before End of Z. Just retcon End of Z to include Beerus and Whis in the crowd or something, (if they can re-create 2 movies, re-creating 2-3 episodes should be nothing) then maybe have a mini saga of Goku training Uub, ala Roshi training Goku and Krilin, and then make some new villain appear now with Uub being a full fledged Z Fighter and ultra-powerful.
Nah I like vegeta this way he needs more spotlight
Goku was never a hero, he even said that himself. He doesn't want to be considered a hero, all he wants to do is fight strong people. That's where his flaws come in. He would be willing to make the fight fair just to make the fight more exciting, even when he has an advantage (especially when he has an advantage).
But that doesn't make him a good protagonist. I can't even sympathize with a moron that is constantly putting others in danger for his own selfish entertainment. I don't expect him to be a hero, I just don't want him to be a jackass.
@@Pengd Same, Goku has made too many stupid choices that I always end up questioning.
Yep, Gohan is a hero. Goku is a saiyan who is born to fight and conquer.
Problem is he isn't trying to be but when it comes to Moro he wanted to make sure redemption was futile... am I saying it stupid sure but that's how he normally is
Goku was a hero who saved peoples lives as well as lighting up any dark day with his cheerful mood. He just isn't a costumed hero who saved people for some moral principle like Spiderman, he plainly helped people out cause he felt like it.
Now, he also has always been someone who loves to fight with has a sense of honor in desiring fighting fair even when it isn't a good idea.... But the thing is, that this used to be *just a part* of Goku's character. He used to be a good guy with flaws, but nowadays, they toned down his altruistic side so he is now nothing but just his flaws.
People didn't simply grow out of liking Goku, but Goku has been flanderized into someone that is nowhere as likeable as he used to.
It's rather unfortunate that Goku has regressed ever since he has been revived in the Buu saga, and even WORSE in Super. I guess when you don't want your "merchandising" to end, you make your protagonist go through the same growth arc, over and over....Good for Dragonball, bad for storytelling imo.
the fact that he can regress after the anime arc is amazing
Super ruined the Goku people grew up with
Yet even in the Buu saga he got serious. His main fault was wanting to give the next generation the mantle, yet being forced to step in again when it all went to shite. Then I guess in the years between Buu and Super he got major brain damaged
But how long can this type of "STORYTELLING" last before the audience gets bored of it?
@@thegentleduck4277 didn't he refuse to fuse with Vegeta again so that they can finally end buu?
0:04 It says a lot when even Goku's TFS voice actor is getting real tired of Goku's stupidity.
No one from TFS likes Goku.. They established that pretty well over the years.
@@MJMolai55 I can't recall was z goku or super. Or both?
@@videogamerlexis DBZ Goku
Ah yes because I just want another superman wannabe truly the most unique of ideas anything else is completely unfitting for a protagonist forget literally every protagonist that isn't like that nah we want Japanese superman
🤣 🤣
Goku changing people around him is such an atrocious excuse for his writing. Luffy does this as well, that's a massive part of the character but people who read One Piece know he's nowhere near as infuriating and as stupid and childish as Goku. Toryiama just doesn't write Goku well at all. He hasn't for years.
He doesn't write anything good at all anymore, and neither does Toyotaro. That's why I've been asking for a new writer who is actually interested in putting in effort into writing interesting characters with depth and good stories rather than the garbage for a story we're getting.
@@Pengd
Goku definitely has been annoying as of late, but DBS is not that bad. While as for the manga lead by Toyotaro, it actually is taking quite the interesting turn of events with the introduction of Granolah, and this new development in char between Vegeta and Beerus. There is still quite a lot of potential in story there.
I personally like Z and GT Goku in terms of characters progression and least experience with all of the villains. He does take the responsibility that he made.
*Looks at the shadow dragon saga*
@@goni2493 at least goku tried to prevent syn from getting the dragon ball instead of giving him a sensu bean
@Don't Talk Zoomer I agree with what you said. But dont insult Akira Toriyama, calling him “ugly story telling brain” is literally just toxic and offensive, its too much bro.
Honestly it's a lesson to crush your enemies when you get the chance because they won't reciprocate anyway.
Not every villain will say sorry, yeah.
@@MasakoX I wish Vegeta just swoop him and vaporize Moro, interrupting Goku trying to spare him.
Vegeta: "YES! Victory for Vegeta!"
Goku: "Vegeta, noooo!"
Vegeta: "VEGETA YES!"
@@MasakoX Almost every Villain except Freeza has. And even Freeza is a business man first and can be bargained with. A Villain just being pure evil with 0 motivations except being evil is pretty rare. Only Kid Buu was like that and he had an IQ of 1 and was close to being an animal more so than a sentient being.
Moro can talk, so there is no real past experiences that makes Goku believe that he can't be bargained with. Even Cell wanted to play a damn game rather than blow up the Earth.
@@TheWarmachine375
Yes!
@@CornBreadtm1 I mean Cell did blow up King Kai's planet lol.
"I'm about to get rasict" -Goku :(
Goku still acts as a hero in DB Heroes, both the main Goku and especially Xeno Goku who is serious. It's only in Super that he acts like a braindead idiot without a care in the world.
Xeno Goku is the best imo.
I think those 2 Gokus in DB Heroes were written to be heroes in that game series/Anime series
The fact that Hero’s has better writing for the main character shows how bad of a writer Toyotaru is.
@@ashhinman1919 except toyotaro is having goku act like like he did through most of Z. This is the same guy that spared Frizea, gave Cell a senzu bean to make this fair. If anything Goku was out of character in the buu saga.
@@flameknightdragon No, Goku wasn't out of character in the Buu saga? It was called character development lol.
@@flameknightdragon he spared freezer because of how pathetic he was so no,he gave cell a senzu to unleash his sons power so no.Stop it with this BS
My honest opinion is that Goku in Super became what the memes and parodies painted him as, forgetting how his character arc had gone to just make him the dumb version that people think he is and only make him serious for "the final punch" against the bad guys but then reverting to being an idiot
So abridged Goku?
Pretty much. So much so that people tend to forget the actual heroic things he's done due to Toriyama's misinterpreted quote and the abundance of memes that highlight his character flaws. He's literally become his own meme and it is sad for longtime fans...
@@Dexuz pretty much, tho at least the Abridged version had the decency of staying in character and also being dumb during the fights which is what actually made him funny
@@Dexuz When Goku started to talk to Moro on his knees. And was all like, "Hey, have you trained? You should train some more I bet you could be a lot better if you trained" or something and Moro was all like "W-wha?...What is he-?"
I started hearing Masako's TFS Goku in my head automatically take over. This chapter is peak 'Super' Goku. With TFS thrown in at this point.
Just like Yamcha and Piccolo
This hurts me so much I love Goku but I hate what they are doing with him.
Chi Chi's been trying to tell us for years, but we never listened
Thats why she wanted gohan to resume his studies and make a career for himself instead of becoming his father. But like you said fan boys don't listen.
Tbh I haven't viewed him as a hero in a long time
I feel like when Akira said what he did about goku "he's not a hero, he just likes good fights" it made me go back and re evaluate him in the subs, it broke that veil of funimation "superman" dub goku.
It made his actions make more sense, and I stopped liking him.
To me he's NOT a fitting protagonist nor is he fit to protect the universe and his planet.
I personally still like him, but not as a hero. More a lawful neutral that loves fighting
His wants fit a side character or even a villain
Yeah, i like him as a character but not a hero, for reasons most people can see
People love Vegeta and Picollo but somehow don't want Goku to have mercy on his opponents.
If we had to give the role of sole protector of Earth & U7, I'd give it to Vegeta.
Piccolo a close second, because he's usually the first to know and alerts everyone else.
My honest and humble opinion is that Toyotaro IS trying to portray Goku the way that Toriyama used to handle him (Goku WAS NEVER a hero, but was still good nonetheless), but the goddamn executives don't freaking understand that, after a while, the same thing over and over gets boring and, to me, even REPULSIVE.
I consider myself a total nerd when it comes to Dragon Ball, as in that I don't just watch it for the fights, as my friends would put it: I'm a walking Dragon Ball Encyclopedia, just to give an idea, and yet... I'm tired. I am literally sick and it makes feel guilty, because this series is what literally allowed me to develop as a man.
But... What do I mean by the same thing? Other people fight against the big bad evil guy->Goku is impended by something->That something is removed->Goku arrives and saves everyone.
It is the reason why I will always cherish and love Dragon Ball, as in the original series, much more than what came after. The franchise is now living off its fame and popularity without adding more to the whole thing, this what most people would refer to 'milking'. Imagine, just imagine what people with actual passion could do with Dragon Ball as a franchise, I personally believe Dragon Ball Online was a good example of this, for those of you who know about its storyline - no, not that crap that Heroes and Xenoverse have put out, personal opinion I know.
I will avoid making comparison with other franchises because then I would never hear the end of it, but there is a reason why most people are fine with One Piece, for example. This is not just about levels of power between characters: THE PEOPLE WORKING BEHIND THE SCREEN DON'T EVEN CARE. It took Toriyama getting involved to make something as passionate as the Broly movie, as much as people may hate the character itself. I know people will hate me for it, but I don't feel anything when I watch Dragon Ball Super, there is no excitement, no childish glee that pushes me to watch the next episode or read the next chapter. I personally am among the people who have no favorite character, but by now everyone can see that they don't care. Not one bit.
I wish to apologize to people who disagree with me, it's just that Dragon Ball has been very important to me, and I thank Masako and other creator like Totally Not Mark for actually taking on this matter and talking about it.
I don't feel any ownership over the franchise or anything of the sorts, just providing my honest opinion.
Same here, I first started watching Dragonball Z because my step bro wanted me to catch up so we could watch the Broly movie together. Despite the story moving slower than Molasses, I really enjoyed it. Hell, even all the tropes it spawned, it just made the show more endearing for me because it knew what it wanted to be. At that point, I understood why my step brother loved Dragonball so much.
Dragonball Super on the other hand, I thought, was boring. Each transformation just felt like moving a goal post, Goku got simplified down to a rock like Homer Simpson, and all the side characters' chances to shine (including Vegeta's) were cucked away by Goku. Despite how vast Dragonball Super's 'universe' is, it felt more shallow and lacked all the weight that DBZ had. Even with how much faster-paced it was, it was still a slog to get through. The only notable thing I enjoying was when Goku promised to bring a special friend to Zeno in the Goku Black arc and it ended up being the Zeno from that world-line. It seemed like the studio didn't care at all until Dragonball Broly my came out.
There is a similar relationship between Dave Filoni and George Lucas, and I've never cared for Filoni's take on Star Wars after he took a proud ax to lore and blamed George Lucas for it.
Anime Morals: "While Most heroes look for what they can take, a true hero searches for what he can give. Whether the gift of living through sacrifice, or something even greater".
Goku: A Hero? What's that? Is that a type of food?
Goku isn't and never was a hero.
Like a damn. What both Toyotaro and Toriyama are not giving to the franchise since Super was a thing, especially with Goku.
Goku... do you want to know what a hero is? piss off
Well a Hero is a type of sandwich.
@@matthewhavock7080 SANDVISH MAKE ME STRONG
Honestly I’ve always thought that GT should have been about Goku (and possibly Vegeta) training a new generation of fighters, where they’d still be relevant, while giving characters like Goten, Trunks, Pan, and Uub time to really come into their own and be main characters.
That would be perfect, like you see Goku training Uub in the end of Z. Would make perfect sense.
When Goku loved his family, actually put in effort to save lives instead of endangering them for a challenge, and actually had to work for his power
I've been saying this for years, but fanboys just yelled at me.
don't cower yourself down before these dumbasses, stand up and shout words of wisdom right in their ears
Agreed I have been saying this since the start of the Super anime series, not the movies.
What's worse they keep bringing up vegeta's past sins to justify how good goku is. Like my God vegeta atoned for what he did and he deserves the win. But nope, can't reason with goku power pole riders.
@@gokuwrightattorneyatlaw5227 Goku fanboys are some of the most pig headed people on the internet
@John Carlton I don't mind if goku is his favorite but it has become a huge problem sometimes. He let the other characters get weak and almost forgotten. Getting the short end of the stick and that gets really annoying. I'm glad we are discussing this topic but I wouldn't be surprised if a goku fan boy came on here cursing at us. Vegeta and the other characters get wrongful held back.
Theory time: when Goku hit his head (i don't know if it's still canon or not), it didn't actually changed his personality, but rather creating a split personality with "Kakarot" being somehow surpressed or "covered" by "Goku" personality. Goku achieving ultra instinct for some reason slowly unlock his "Kakarot" personality, a wild and untamed saiyan. Unlike Vegeta, who slowly changes his outlook in life and personality in a natural progression without having to hit his head, "Kakarot" was never get a personality change since it was only surpressed or covered by "Goku" after the head bump
"Goku just isn't an interesting protagonist anymore."
"Hello, I represent the 'Bring Back MC Gohan, Revive His Anger Character Trait, And Turn Him Into a Dynamic Character' Party, would you be interested in subscribing to our newsletter?"
😂😂😂😭
"I've been waiting for you to turn it up."
I'm gonna say it. Just because goku "isn't the hero", doesn't mean its all cool if he endangers millions with stupid decisions and never learns from it.
Also , " if he does something stupid and things go outta control , we still have the dragon balls to clean the mess " .
@@MarcioSilva-fk1hq Or ya know, an angel that can rewind time. Two gods who can effortless destroy anything.
@@videogamerlexis , hell yeah ! So , all they had to do is give 'em some delicious food .
its funny that in the freeza saga goku supposedly learned to "get the job done" and not give his enemies a chance to strike.
I love when youtubers (especially anime youtubers) give shout outs to others who made videos on similar topics instead of just copying what they said as it happens waaayyyy too much
Thats one of the things i like with Masakox, he gives credit where it's due
This video helped me reframe my resentment towards Super and realize the main thing driving it has been frustration and disappointment that the show and its characters didn't grow up with me.
Goku's journey should have ended after Buu (and realistically Cell). GT at least portrayed him mentally as a seasoned master who had grown as a character - ya know, like any good story does.
But, because Dragon Ball is a extremely profitable franchise, that evolution will likely never be allowed to take place to any significant degree in the official stories.
There's lots of things they could do with other characters, or just hand it off to the descendants of the original ones, but that won't happen.
Good stories need growth and endings. Without them, the quality diminishes rapidly.
Since that won't happen, I can no longer find any sense of joy, relatability or interest in this franchise, which sucks cause it meant so much to me as a kid - and fair enough, children and teens are the target audience.
I was just really hoping that the franchise would grow up with me, and that I could be as passionate about DB now as I was 20 years ago.
Just another thing that sucks about getting old.
Yeah, same thing happened to me with Star Trek and Star Wars. They moved on from me while ironically trying to pull me in harder.
The problem with DragonBall there are no stakes, you can make mistakes and it can all be wished back like nothing happened or reversed. That's why I became such a huge fan of Naruto the stakes are high if Naruto made Goku like mistakes the world will end
Nah,You clearly didn't watch the whole series LMAO. Your just a Naruto fan who went out of his way to comment that in this video,You clear don't know anything about dragon ball. Pls Be gone.
Plot armor affects all.
@@bandabanana4939 bruh I have watched dragonball from the original to Moro don't dare question my Fandom for DragonBall I can tell you more about this series than you know. Been watching DragonBall since I was 4 back on the 90s when it was still airing in Japan, getting Japanese VHS tapes so I can watch GT before it came to the US. You came at the wrong person bruh
@@bandabanana4939 no yah there's no stakes in dragon ball the last time there was frezia really and truly
@@bandabanana4939 lmao db has never had *real* threats aside from frieza and cell
It’s not Goku’s Fault It’s the WRITERS
Nah bro goku has always been this way
Explain how the senzu bean affected the chapter? I’d love to hear this
Goku's always been this way.
@@TyroneLDStyle SPOILER WARNING:
Exactly, Goku gave it to him knowing Moro wouldn't be able to touch him. Moro would've looked for a way to devour the earth had Goku not done that so idk what difference it even made.
@@navyseal4000 it was a flex moment. Nothing more than that. People keep comparing it to Cell when the whole situation is different
This is why they should've had the balls to stick to making gohan the new title holder instead they bitched out.
"But he was never meant to be the hero!" don't you know? LOL. But he could have been.
I miss when Gohan was going to be the next big thing in DB. Also miss Buu Saga Goku, he had better critical thinking, was mature. They so regressed him in Super. As much as people hate GT, I think he faired better there than in Super.
I honestly have come to think that GT is better than Super.
Goku is a flat character. It gets irritating when a story is going on for 30 years plus
It only got bad when Dragon Ball Super came out
@Crado Dragmire if being the operative word here.
@@solarflare4047 super ruined Goku. Buu saga Goku was good
@@Bloodraven332 except super goku acts like goku has always acted. really you could say goku in the buu saga was out of character.
@@flameknightdragon no not at all damn I hate db fans
Imagine being a extremely powerful being capable of preventing the deaths of millions of lives with very little effort....but you don't because dragonballs exist to compensate for your bad decision making.
Whis better be pretty much done with Goku after this arc. Remember in Resurrections F when Goku failed to finish the fight and Freeza blew up the Earth? Whis rewound time, dishing out literal divine intervention, to let him fix that mistake and learn a lesson, and clearly Goku has refused to learn it.
As for most interesting new protag? Gohan and Pan, hands down. Yeah, Gohan doesn't like fighting, likes his job and puts his family at the forefront in his life, and that's why he'd be good. He wouldn't just be retreading the same arcs Goku had already been through, and he would allow stories to explore new avenues and emotions. We'd also go into it knowing that Gohan will not be permanent protag and that one day Pan will take over.
Gohan has retread the same arc. How many times Gohan went through the lesson he needs to train and not depend on daddy?
@@Ramona122003 he’s definitely repeated certain character beats. But there’s more room for growth with Gohan. At least if Gohan was to be the protagonist we’d see more out of him.
@@SpiegelmanSzn Gohan was never a fighter to begin with.
Trunks could do it. He still has room to grow and his future version has many fans. It's also baffling to see that Future Trunks is more mature than present Goku.
@@SpiegelmanSzn i think compared to goku(who just needs to stop being the star as he's too strong to take fully seriously and needs to step down as a mentor/have threats he can take on with the other z fighters strengths instead of just another "not frieza/cell" which moro sadly is becoming when i got vibes of demigra/towa/the demon realm empire from heroes when he first showed up,dude even gave goku a fright when he read his mind.) gohan could work with an easy fix for his problem... have him teach others to fight like in online(i always felt his attempts to be a fighter while making sense in the saiyan/namek saga were forced in cell onwards and think he/chi chi are pretty justified for their reluctance to something goku and the others could likely handle on their own.have his scholarship be revealed to help make a school to teach everyone what he learned from piccolo in z with videl,hercule,bulma,goku/vegeta and the other z fighters helping out in heartwarming/funny moments.:3)
as i feel ultra instinct gives a good stepping stone for that since people can do it in real life and the other z fighters could help out testing it with their styles/attempting to learn it.(like have roshi,the androids with their limitless stamina/energy,krillin,tien & even yamcha be used by bulma to learn it's limits or have gohan visit the tenkaichi budokai building and with guest appearances of classic dragonballs tournament fighter use them to spread the word.:3)
At least we can all agree on this: Masako’s (both British and Japanese) Gokus is something we can all enjoy together 😁👍
I think Picollo would be an interesting protagonist. He is smart and complex enough to create a lot of entertaining character arcs.
*Piccolo fans in the back scream: "DUH!"
Moro arc right now is a clean 8/10 for me. This whole arcs been about techniques >> power, Moro didn’t completely get the upper hand once he got Merus’ abilities. Goku finessed this man and Vegeta’s technique will be the one to split Moro from Earth and if executed well, will move this arc to a 8.5/10. Best arc since Freeza.
Let's see what the anime version can do.
@@MasakoX Will we get an anime? It look like we are more likely to get another movie than a serie reprise.
I literally stopped reading and walked away in disgust.
Dumbest thing written since Twilight
Oh god it's that bad
The most extreme what if: "What if Goku grew as a person."
I still want Gohan to replace Goku as the main character I felt like Goku's story was done after the Goku Black arc
way so gohan cna ruin the toip arc gohan v jriern wodo nto ben an nar elvle fi e pciness liek goku vs jrien
@@ssjgotenks2009 WTF ARE YOU SAYING!!! Don't like Gohan doing good for the story cry about it somewhere else.
@@ssjgotenks2009 is this a troll
And dont even get me started on how Toyataro keeps doin my boy Vegeta all types of wrong
It would be nice to see him conflicted about something. To test his morals a little bit
To me he just comes off as very ignorant and arrogant. He definitely had a better personality in Z even if he did have those things he hardly showed it. If ever.
You already know things are going rough when the voice of Goku starts having doubts
Okay Goku was never a hero of Truth or Justice to begin with he even said it himself however you still could be a good person helping people's without calling yourself a hero & this is not Goku's fault this is Toyotaro & writing staff for being too stupid for not understanding the characterit's not just Goku they screw-up it's also The other side characters that is frustrating as well and the fact that Toriyama green lighting this makes me want to put him in question
I've gotten so tired of defending my love for "Funimation Goku" because I get told over and over again that "it's not what Toriyama intended" "that's not the real Goku" "the real Goku is a selfish prick" when, honestly. No. I feel like the "real Goku" (DB - Z and even GT and the early Super movies) has his development and growth after making notable mistakes but comes to realize the "superman mentality" that everyone seems to tell me they hate. At this point whenever I say "I like Goku" I usually have to be specific and say "I like Buu Saga Goku" because it seemed like that was when his character peaked and balanced between naivety and maturity. but you know I'm ready for that to be argued as well in responses because "clearly I'm not a real dragonball fan"
The second Moro went from a pretty decent designed goat man to having a human face, I knew where the story was gonna go. Funnily enough my biggest problem with ch65 wasn’t even the fact that Cell got rebooted, hear me out.
Moro devours planets right. He consumes entire systems of life to its entirety. As a matter of fact, even in dbz they talked about planets not being durable enough to handle the clash of the persons fighting telling them to take it easy meaning they are far more durable than the rock they’re on... in Z, where they are exponentially weaker than they are now
Moros body can’t handle the power of MUI and somehow making the planet, something FAR less durable than him into his body makes it alright?
It’s like they just needed him to get bigger and be a threat still now that the power gap is as clear as ever but the plot still wants to- oh.. Cell reboot.
Are you delusional? The issue wasn't durablity you moron, it was space. Moro needed a body that had enough space to store the angel energy, durablity has nothing to do with it.
@@jantheking7028 So how big is Goku 🤔 since his body adapted, was trained to, and can manage it? How big is that mouse destroyer?? 🤔 He’s also pretty tiny. All the destroyers have some understanding of ultra instinct, Beerus seems closest to mastering it, how big is he gonna have to swell up huh. Let’s also take into account that MUI is ultimately a technique so it’s not “angel energy” because Moro copies techniques, abilities, and skills thanks to absorbing that one guy.
Face it, it’s not the best writing. We can enjoy it anyways, DBS is fast food for our DB fix but let’s not pretend it’s sublimely written. Also, might I suggest not getting so worked up about people pointing out stuff in a manga? It makes it seem like you’ve link a lot of your very person into a series that almost gets written on a whim.
Goku's punches can shatter the universe. They are stronger than they were in Z. The execution doesn't _convey_ it well, however.