Are Gearboxes The Future? | EMBN Show 286
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- Опубликовано: 8 июл 2024
- At Eurobike 2023, one topic seemed to dominate conversations - gearboxes! Several brands introduced integrated motors and gearboxes, but it's safe to say Pinion's Motor Gearbox Unit (or MGU for short) was the one firmly in the spotlight. In this week's EMBN Show, Adam and Steve discuss the pros and cons of gearboxes, look at some new bikes coming up this year, and take a look at some of the photos you've been sending in!
⏱ Timestamps ⏱
0:00 - Intro
0:22 - Thoughts on gearboxes, belt drive, & more
6:15 - News
8:25 - Cool Places
10:04 - Feedback
13:11 - Weekly Question
13:35 - Bike Vault
15:22 - Getting Social
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What new product or advance in EMTB tech has made you buy a new bike, or consider buying a new bike? Let us know!
I think the pinion MGU matched with a belt drive is the cats meow! O yes I will have one Please. This is the product that changes Everything! - M
Definitely the Pinion MGU E1.12. And maybe one from outside the EU in an S-pedelec version - although that's probably non-existant right now for endouro emtbs. I just felt this mgu got handicapped quite a bit by its regulation conforming 25km/h max speed. A low maintenance, great handling endouro ebike with nevertheless top trail performance? I would be tempted. Or that non-regulation compliant Aden sports add-on motor.... I just don't have the bike to attach it to. 2k € and transferable between bikes... even not grinding down the drive train by having a different angle of attack for its support power. Would love to see a real world testing with lots of dirt and cleaning and long time experience on that too
When the Bosch CX did away with the internal gearbox, and small front chainring, and also came out with new larger 625 Wh battery (over the 500 Wh one), I just had to get a new bike!
I would be interested in the new gearbox motor, but only if it has acceptable low resistance when pedalling when the motor is off, or you are over 25 Kph. The lower resistance on the Gen 4 motors was the reason I got the new bike.
@@A-Kiwi to me, the gearbox and sudden support stop above 25kph felt like a wall. Could barely paddle up to what? 32? With standing up going full force and having optimal road in front
There are only two things that could make me consider getting a new bike.
1. Significant range upgrade over my current bike.
2. A closed drive train with high durability and low maintenance.
Otherwise I don't see my self upgrading in the next couple of years.
MGU's should of been integrated when ebikes were first introduced. No doubt this package will be the standard of ebikes moving forward. Just the fact that a derailleur will not be a factor in reliability when it comes to aggressive downhill applications is enough to attract any rider. Plus the enhanced mass centralization would make a heavy ebike more maneuverable. I hope all ebike brands will adopt this new tech soon to their next gen models.
Challenging times. How to address the elephant in the room , the Pinion MGU , when it's a huge threat to the channels sponsors !!! 😂
These hosts didn’t really present the facts very well on the Pinion MGU. The tensioner doesn’t have to be mounted at the rear wheel like the bike shown it’s usually mounted from the back corner of the gearbox. The two audible clunks in the shifting! So what is every shift on a standard system perfect. A startup gear can automatically be selected, can shift when stopped, with or without pedalling. The extra weight penalty is far less than they made it seem. 4.1kg plus chain or belt tensioner and rear cog compared to a standard full power motor with cassette, rear derailleur and longer chain. The real difference is not much more than half a kilo, hardly noticeable on a full powered bike. They didn’t mention the larger gear range or the drivetrain components lasting longer than a conventional system.
There just needs to be a bolt-pattern standard so I can customize/build/retrofit brand 'X' gearbox on a brand 'Y' frame.
That would be nice, but I fear that the bicycle manufacturers are going to resist that, as their motor/control unit/software is a major selling point of the whole 'package'...
I think the best we could hope for is a third party motor/gearbox manufacturer making their product available in a variety of 'engine case' shapes to fit the most popular frame mounting patterns, although again this is only likely to appeal to owners of older bikes wishing to upgrade - most bike manufacturers would rather sell you a whole new bike (or at least an integrated motor/battery/frame-set combo, such as the Specialized S-works Levo etc.)
Yeah, it would be nice but unfortunately that’s never going to happen. Look at cars and motorcycles, you can’t swap motors in any of them. It also holds back development as they are stuck with what may be a inefficient mounting system.
4:34 - If the weight of the Pinion MGU is 4.1 kg, why does an MGU bike HAVE to weigh in at 25 kg?
If a lightweight bike is 15 kg, a lightweight bike with an MGU doesn't have to weight more than 19 kg, and 19 assumes that the motor and gear system the MGU replaces weighs exactly 0 kg. The Bosch Performance Line SX is 2 kg, which is only 2 kg less than the MGU. If people want it, they could get an MGU with a low capacity (and thus low weight) battery, and then that light weight bike is 17 or 18 kg rather than 25.
What *I* want is low to no maintenance (which a belt-drive MGU unit certainly gives) and independence of battery systems. I don't WANT to be forced into buying Bosch batteries. It's the same stupid thing we're facing with power tools, where the manufacturers are forcing their users into using their batteries.
We solved these problems decades ago elsewhere with AA, AAA, AAAA, C, D, 9 volt, various button cells etc., but because ebike motor manufacturers and power tool manufacturers are greedy, they've gone the route of inkjet manufacturers and decided that their 36 volt, 17.3 Ah battery is SPECIAL and cannot possibly be replaced by another manufacturer's 36 volt, 17.3 Ah battery.
Battery weight.
@@leedove7255 Battery weight isn't a function of the motor. It's a design choice.
@@MrMartinSchou "why does an MGU bike HAVE to weigh in at 25 kg?" was your question. The choice of battery is dictated by desired range for a specific motor output. The more powerful motors need bigger batteries.
@@MrMartinSchoubut contributes to weight.
gearboxes and belt drives for the future. And with that little to no maintenance. That's what I expect from a MTB or E-MTB
no they arent... they feel like pedalling through a bowl of thick mud
@@anonymousone6075no they don’t. I’ve ridden a Pinion bike and you hardly feel any resistance. A derailleur drivetrain has just as much resistance when at the higher and lower sides of the cassette due to the flexing of the chain. Plus, it’s an Ebike, you have a motor to overcome any small amount of resistance.
@@streddaz you dosey **** ebikes cut out at a certain speed you dozey ****
@@anonymousone6075 yeah they do (unless you install a speed cut device) but there’s still not much resistance. There’s been gearbox bikes for over a decade and they don’t even have a motor.
@@streddaz you obviously never got a test ride
I just got a Specialized Turbo Vado 5.0 with Enviolo’s automatic internal gear hub (IGH). Belt driven, electronically controlled continuous variable transmission (CVT). Awesome bike. Smooth, silent, powerful, great range. Virtually maintenance free. The Pinion technology makes it obsolete already. This is the future. Hope other manufacturers develop their own MGU, and bike builders adopt the technology soon. I’m waiting. No more chains, derailleurs, cassettes for me.
The answer to your question is yes! I've held off buying a new ebike- I've been waiting for something like the pinion to come along. And now it is here..
Well don't hold off on having fun!
I 110% believe this is the future! The one thing holding back the gearbox concept for me has always been the grip shift! That has now been resolved with e-bikes! I still don’t understand the obsession with a lightweight ebike! But for me .5kg on the BB for a gearbox and belt drive is a complete no brainer! As the weight distribution will be so much better with this! Especially in the UK! My next ebike will 110% be a gearbox bike with a belt drive without doubt! Plus a belt tensioner is no big deal at all! It will be cheap to replace so easy to have one spear on rides and doesn’t hand as low as a derailleur! And I bet they can easily make is as strong as a new sram derailleur bs lol
Totally agree. Especially on the weight front. My Levo is around 23kgs and no issue for me. If I can get a model with the Pinion drive on 48months interest free I'll get one.
I could shave 30kg off my system weight and lower the CoG if I stopped enjoying eating.
If one of the advantages of the Pinion gearbox is to eliminate rear derailleurs being torn off, in it's current configuration you have an exposed front tensioner below the motor that will be smashed on the first tree or rock you ride over & a rear one which is just as vulnerable as derailleur...how is this an improvement??
Quoted for truth
The rear one is much smaller in every dimension, with the exemption of Rotwild's chain tensioner. But you're right: the Supre Drivetrain by Cedric Eveleigh from Canadian company LAL BIKES as implemented in Nicolai's Nucleon 16 is king here. Didn't get as much coverage yet and I only saw it. Would be nice to hear more about that too.
I have a gearbox bike with the tensioner mounted on it. The chance of it getting hit are very low because your pedal and crank are right there or your back wheel will roll over first and I have banged up a fair number of derailleurs in the last 40 years riding in British Columbia.
the design makes it really hard to give the tensioner a knock, it kind of sits behind the gearbox. and isn't much lower than the gearbox. if it did get a knock somehow, the spring would just return, you might get a belt slip if under power at the time. if it worries you get a spare with the bike.
with a derailleurs, any stick you ride over can flick up into the chain/derailleur and get caught. that is unlikely to happen in my experience with a belt drive unit and pinion gearbox (not electric)
The future... Gear box e-bikes and belt drive and no more derailleur
no... feels like twice the effort when the motor cuts out compared to cassette
@@anonymousone6075 why would the motor cut out? Have you ridden one yet?
@@HaywardFamilybuilding because theres this thing called speed restriction where the motors stop assisting
@@anonymousone6075 I see what your saying but have you ridden one?
I think a lot of emtb are being used by people who may have some sort of a limitation to the sport based on various factors such as age, ability, physical condition, other physical limitations etc.
Of course many are used by awesome experienced riders as well but a large portion of the market likely is in some way limited by way of analog bike riding.
This being said, I’d like to see the industry innovate towards maximizing the tech in such a way that more people with limitations can enter the sport and enjoy it. Eliminating mech for example is a step in the right direction and the added lower bb weight may not impede those of us who are just getting started out (when it might impede a pro downhill rider for example).
If it wasn’t for my turbo levo, I wouldn’t be riding right now.
I would absolutely love to see you guys on embn do a running long term segment focused on how an ebike transforms someone who otherwise couldn’t ride into somewhat of an experienced rider. I think a lot of people would be interested in that type of segment, since a lot of us may not be able to relate as closely to some of the content regarding emtb currently.
But no matter what mech or tech changes come, the key will always be battery capacity/weight and motor placement / size.
Same. Turbo Levo and wouldn't be out otherwise. Don't care about weight. But I'm old enough to remember the original Raleigh Grifter.
Good points all round.
I’m in my 60’s now (plenty of X country riding in the past), and after a nasty fall which resulted in tendons, ligament and cartilage being shredded in my knee, I’m able to carry on riding (after learning how to walk for a year) with the aid of an eMTB.
I’m mainly riding on the road, but find I’m going through chains and gears (in ECO mode), so am seriously interested in the Pinion motor/gearbox system.
Love the new tech appearing; hope Scott (Big fanboy) adopt the Pinion for the eStrike. Would buy one without hesitation.
For sure I would happily take a GMU emtb with the extra weight, just to get rid of the derailleur & cassette all day long....if I ever change my canyon spectral On mk1 , I will only be looking at a gear box emtb also they will/ can only get better as more manufacturers follow pinions lead for sure.
I rarely have problems with my suspension or brakes. Most of my problems are with my derailleur based drivetrain system and to have them shift consistently and the same all the time.
your next problem will be waiting a month for your LBS to get a gearbox for your bike
@@anonymousone6075why would you have to wait for a gearbox? Your bike would come with one.😉
Maybe its time to switch from Canyon to Simplon Rapcon Pmax 😀
Can't wait to see the range of the e1.9 bikes, don't need a new bike. But wanted pinion with belt for years. Maybe it'll sway me to upgrade hardtail ebike to full suspension. Then in the future get the bat upto 1kwh and weight sub 20kg. But basically full suspension with the pinion emotor is what I've wanted, and it'll be a while till battery technology brings bike weights down.
What sets your weight threshold? My Levo is like 23kg but not an issue as long as I don't need to go over a fence. I just make sure my route includes gates.
@border304 this exact reason 26kg is a bit much to take over stiles and fences, doable but hard work. Lighter the better (lighter it is, easier it is to throw around) but sub 20kg would be a great start. But weight imo is the last thing to improve, I like the power of the cx gen 4 motor would like a 1kwh battery, and obviously pinion, then work on getting the weight down. 25kg is also right on limit of a lot of car racks and lifting it on to roof is hard work.
@@GlaucusBlue Makes sense. Thankfully I'm close enough to just cycle to Glentress.
having 11/12 gives you the correct gear for the motor and cadence to work as it ultimate level.
Thanks for the share! Awesome to see my clip on the show. Chris is a huge inspiration for me so being compared to him in any way is an honor. More to come! It's actually pronounced like "smah-gee" but you can say it however you like, haha.
What WE want, Steve, is midle power E. Bikes under 21 kg... with compact gearbox ! Simple !
Fini, plus de dérailleur, merci ! 😂
gearboxes are a must on mtbs, not getting ripped off on rocks and better suspension, its the way to go
until they brake and you cant ride again for a week, oh we hjave supply shortages your bikes out of order for a month
@@anonymousone6075 oh thats my third derailleur this trip, ehh whats another 1000$ if ive already spent 4000$
@@anonymousone6075 acting like only drivetrains suffer from supply shortages🙈
@@anonymousone6075they shouldn’t break. Pinion gearboxes have been around for years and last hundreds of thousands of km. Your chain and cassette won’t.
@@streddaz when dirt and water gets inside from your chain thats not a chain its GG
The belt tensioner should be mounted on the sprung weight side of the drive train to further reduce the unsprung weight which is another unmentioned benefit of mid mounted gearbox. Belt drives have already done well over 50000 km unchanged (i have seen a 100,000km one) and MX bikes go through rivers with no water in the sump , its old tech that has been missing for far too long from Ebikes. Don't be a stick in the mud , offer up the belt drives, let people choose and lets see where this goes. (Google 100000 km on Belt drive for the video )
First i need to get to ride a Pinion GMU bike to get a feel of the thing...and hopefully it's a positif.
That will open the gate to the Walhala were there are no chains and derailleurs ... can't wait
Looking forward see u testing a MGU Bike. My favourite is price/spec wise the bulls vuca evo 2AM
Im not buying anything new, the Canyon spectral ON cf8 will do just fine.
I get at least 1000 miles on a chain. And know how to shift a bike, Im not racing the thing.
People go crazy over the gearboxes with out ever having sat on a bike with one.
I'll let things settle for some years and see what shakes out.
Ive never once wrecked a rear derailleur and been riding mt bikes since the 80's. So its not an everyday thing. I dont need a 12 speed though on E bike.
Ryan Van Duzer has tested the pinion box and belt in the most extreme conditions imaginable.
Hes on youtube. He has had great luck with the thing on a normal/amish bike.
When they match up bosche motor with the gearbox it will be time to buy. Great motor with a well refined gearbox. Yes please.😊
doesnt feel anything like an analog bike when pedalling... gearbox are just a scam to con money from people... buy once and never again
Surely integral gearboxes are the NBT (next big thing)? Other than weight, which will come down, it's all positive.
The next embt i buy will have an MGU. I run a Kindernay IV 7 speed hub in my Focus Jam Squared and its good but the MGU will be the final world in power and gearing.
My bet is on the Revonte if it's reliable. I'd like to see an in-depth review of it.
Turning 58 next month and a lifelong cyclist. Mostly road I own two 14 lb carbon road bikes I built custom from frame up but have become too afraid to ride on the roads. My last mtb was a 1993 Canondale killer v with no suspension xtr equipped and still weighing 25 lbs. I haven’t ridden off road since the late 90’s.
I’m excited to move back to the dirt with an EMTB. Motor/gearbox is really interesting to me. Subscribed to learn more. BTW I live on a sailboat and this bike will travel with me to remote location once I retire.
I just turned 58 and an electric mountain bike is the funnest damn toy I have ever had in my life!
my next eMTB purchase decision will be based on range, power and reliability.
As a motorbike rider i am happy with a heavy bike as long as the motor is spec'ed appropriately. should bikes be rated on their power to weight ratio?
Yes.
Are rear derailleurs that vulnerable? I've never had an issue.
I tend to agree, and they are an automatic chain tensioner for long travel suspension too of course... however, to keep them running smoothly, you do need to clean and maintain them regularly.
I think the primary benefit is to eliminate the cluster 12 cogs bolted to the rear hub, and to offer a constant chain/belt line - further reducing wear and improving longevity.
As a 100kg rider I'll deal with the extra weight of the gearbox. The cost and aviability of casesettes, derailleur's & chains makes this even more attractive. Once it is on the market we will see about reliability and weight reduction. Taking 100g of a component as weight saving is insignificant, given my personal weight reduction capacity
I had a Rocky Mountain Powerplay with a 12spd derailleur system. Totally over spec’d I only needed 9spd at most. I would like to see an integrated gearbox at 9 speed.
Yes,
1.less gears on an e-bike.
2. Rider 2 rider charging (in case someones battery dies),
3. smaller/lighter. I don't use my power setting higher than 50Watt assist because its like a rocket uphill and many uphill direction trails simply aren't meant for speed, (so far), and you really don't need any power on the decent.
all the years are not needed but the almost stepless feel to move through gears is needed so with semi automatic even more gears would feel nice
as with all motors it would be interesting to know what they pedal like when off the power
Lol why? Just plan your charge imo.
@@border304 because when you go above the limiter they have so much resistance they pedal like a brick nothing to do with charging or range.
@@BADGERTHEBIKER I know. So don't run out of power was my point.
@@border304 don't think you understand my point. after 15.5 - 16mph there is no power as it cuts off therefore what does it pedal like with no power. absolutely nothing to do with running out of power at all.
@@BADGERTHEBIKER I understood. Who pedals faster than 15mph unless going downhill? Not me very often. And it isn't the same pedalling above 15mph with momentum versus the motor drag of no assist at lower speeds either tbh.
I am thinking Pinion mgu E1.12 bikes are going to be very expensive
I have to agree with less gears I find myself staying in only a few gears on a E-mtb.
I would love, 23kg’s, MGU, 750wh, 150 x 160 travel, 29er
Derailleurs are terrible things, endless chain cleaning clunky gear changes unless they are setup correctly. However the Pinion MGU needs work, gear 4 and 8 changes are not pleasant on steep gradients. I finally got a chance to ride one up a steep incline. The problem is the 3 range stepping . gear 1-4 give seem less changes which gives an expectation that moving to gear 5 will be also seem less but because the 4 gear block has to swap to a new gear ration for 5-8 it clunks badly. same experience at gear 8. We heard that the gear change at the low power part of the crank is handled by the software. Umm t the FIT guys need to go 1 km from their office and try the steep hills around there at try it themselves.
Gearbox and belt drive for Me
Great show guys, lighter batteries would be great, with more life and power. Ones that are removable from the frame, then split into 4 smaller ones or 1 large one. If only Carlsberg👍
You want the moon on a stick.
Gearbox motors? What happens when the battery runs out. Can you ride the bike like a push bike? For me, knowing I can ride on with no battery power and still change gears is a winner. As it has happened in the past a couple of times. Great show.
I just plan my charge accordingly.
@border304 short rides, no problem, but not everything goes to plan. Conditions change. Strong head wind plays up with your fitness level, and you use more boosts, or you go for that extra lap. You don't wish to be stuck in the Ozzie bush.
@@dlauric Oh yeah that's fair. Plus out running those darn dropbears...
@@dlauricthere’s enough power for 1000 shifts after the battery stops the motor assistance.
Eyeballing the Simplon Rapcon Pinion, but it's quite pricy and I am expecting it to deliver.
The more moving parts, the more things to break. Its that simple.
i will buy another bike with a gearbox. sounds great
and t hen it rainsd and your gears rust, that'll be a month wait for us to get you a gearbox in
As a Lake District rider this bike ticks all the boxes, my only concerns would be dealing with a European dealer unless a uk one takes the bikes on, with a good warranty.
Orbea wild the geometry sold it hands down and i rode all i could demo wild is the one my friend
My concern is that you may be out there and run out of juice. If your rig weighs 20 kg well maybe you can pedal it back. But if it weighs much more it is going to be a challenge. So perhaps a system that allows me to alter my bike’s weight by swapping out different sized batteries. A sub 20 kg bike for pump parks or close to home would be nice- you might just sacrifice some range. A larger battery for those long trips.
What did I find most appealing at the Show - SUV's real go anywhere do most things bikes. The most ridiculous, Bosch 120 RPM SX motor.
I want:
1. Interchangeable motors and batteries
2. Support and service for the lifetime of the bike
3. Open standards, not manufacturer blocked systems
My Shimano E6000 bike only from 5 years ago is stuck with the old motor, which is not upgradeable, non-repairable, and nobody wants/can to service it.
Looking at the car industry you see more gears not less with automatic gear boxes, to achieve higher efficiency. When the shifts are seamless it makes sense with a motor. Could the same not be said for e-bikes? More real world testing needed, I guess.
Speed controls like to run at 80%+ flat throttle curve to maintain efficiency. The lower the throttle curve, the harder the ESC works, more heat, less efficient etc. Closer the step on gears, the easier throttle curves stay steady, less heat.
Maybe a company will combine a chain tensioner device with a gearbox, for a truly lightweight gear change solution ? Oh wait……
I've been riding a highly evolved 2000MY Klein Attitude Comp with a Rohloff gear hub for yeeears.. but now over 50 and trying to treat my knees with a bit more care. Have recently been bemoaning the lack of EMTB coupled with a Rohloff, but now move over.. MGU's are here ! Seriously trying to decide on either Bulls or Simplon Pinion bike, they look like they have quite different geometry... Back to back test please !
So, you've been playing with Rholf for years?
When are we going to see bikes with the mgu ?
I want a bike that has 400w battery with 5 speed gearbox and a belt drive with the rear suspension sharing the crank pivot point so there is no need for a tensioner with an aluminium frame sub 20kg for throwing over fences. With about 140mm suspension cause I'm too old to be going flat out.
Light weight is relative. I used to have a Raleigh Grifter though. Don't really care about the weight when I have a motor.
What do I want? An electric motocross bike with pedals I can get away with riding in my local woodland 😂
We're already doing it and we love it!
I bought a new EMTB when Canyon came out with the Spectral On with massive 725 and 900W batteries. Very capable full power bike with lots of range, well spec'd, and for a great price!!!
And?
I forgot to add that I do own a bike that has a pinion mechanical 12 speed gearbox and I really like it. I use it mostly for bike packing because of the ruggedness and reliability of the system. That system is not great for MTB, but if they could work out the kinks and minor issues it will definitely be a game changer (MTB, commuting, etc.)
The MGU is here and I cannot wait to get one. The tensioner is an issue but I will bet that the second generation will find a better, less vulnerable solution. The derailleur has been the optimal solution for over 100 years and is still the best solution for weight and efficiency. The ebike removes the weight and efficiency factor and the gear box has almost no maintenance. The gearing will evolve. Ebikes do not need 12 speeds because the close transitions for maximum pedaling efficiency is not an issue. Drop down to say 8 speeds and now the gear box is no longer 8 kg. I am willing to bet in 3-4 years the MGU will be on the majority of the ebikes sold.
Be cool if the pinion or something like it can be made to bolt into existing motor mounts, know what I mean
Hopefully if Gary Fisher is getting into eMTBs (and at his age why wouldn't he?!) then I trust Marin county will revise their current policy on class-1 eMTBs... fortunately the vast majority of California is much more enlightened.
I was was passed by Gary Fisher on an ebike in Sydney, Australia a few years ago..
Full fats about 18 to 20 kg range
Gearboxes potentially have Regen braking potential, but the efficiency of gearboxes v derailleur has to improve.
Yes father
if it is possible to make such a drive whisper quiet, nothing stands in the way of the success of such a system. the wear and tear on the conventional components is enormous if you ride the ebike a lot
With a silent rear hub, it's silent downhill. Uphill not so, but I didn't regard them as loud either
By reading the comments it seems the answer to the question is yes gearboxes are worth the hype and I completely agree. The benefits outweigh any downsides ten fold and on eebs there aren't any downsides anyway.
until your bikes sat at the LBS for a month waiting for a gearbox
@@anonymousone6075again, why would you be waiting for a gearbox? They last thousands of km.
Thank you for sharing your passion about E bikes.
The reliability of the pinion gearbox is proven since 10 years and pinion didn’t change the design of the gearboxes 12 and 9speed. They just added a motor. But also the motor isn’t a new design. It’s produced since years for the automotive industry and provides the power steering of cars.
The owners were engineers at Porsche where they designed gear boxes. So the production and quality management is on a similar level. Also the bike manufacturer are involved in the design from the beginning. So they are able to get bikes in the market in autumn/winter. One or two years earlier than other designs.
Living around the corner of this manufacturers..
Hopefully the international socialists don’t corrupt Germany and the world completely. So we stay alive and we’re not sent from our peaceful and most democratic government since ages to kill “evil” Russians and were able to fund the mgu bikes...
Has the Belt got a join in it like a chain
No, the chain stay is removable.
Cycling one gain continues to be the ping pong of progressive devolution. We’ve got 2 gboxx Nicolai from early 2000’s that albeit a little heavy are able to climb as good as they descend plus a wife’s Dutch bike for work and a touring/gravel/hack about both on Roholoff. My Levo has destroyed/worn 5 cassettes and 2 derailleurs plus several chains in 3 years/7k km wear and tear? Wish I’d bought the Nicolai ebike back in 2019. So I’m waiting on the back end of the first wave of geared unit e-bikes
Maybe they should concentrate on finding away to make motors more reliable than messing with gear boxes
The Future is here with gearbox E-Bikes. The derailer is fine for analog bikes, but add power and they are totally outgunned and vulnerable. You can not expect the power that is now being used to go through the same system. There are also too many gears as the power blurs the lines between gears and most could use 8 gears. Weight will always be an issue for some people. But if you aren't the power source anymore there have to be trade-offs. With the weight of the gearbox and motor located low and centered is just a new dynamic we will get used to like everything. We know battery packs, engines, and gearbox weights will come down as they evolve. This is all moving forward fast. Look where all this was not long ago. But the derailer on E-bikes is dead finally.
The derailleur will be around a long, long time. Its no where near dead.
No racer will want a heavy gearbox.
It'll still be there I don't want a heavy ebike for trail riding, hence why I tend to prefer the more playfulness of super light model ebikes. I love my Orbea rise for this reason, light and playful and can even operate as a normal bike when out of power which I've done a dozen of times on rides since it's light enough that pedaling without power isn't a chore.
Is MGU test ride review coming soon? 🤔
Gearboxes were around 20 years ago,look at allen millyard,built 4 bikes for his son when he raced,so it isnt the first ever gearbox!
I still can't understand why everyone is fixated on weight, full power full phat ebikes are so much fun, ride tech climbs flat out and bomb the downs, it's different to regular MTB . . . If you ride your ebike like an analogue MTB you are missing the point 😂
I ride really Sandy trails. I feel like the belt won’t handle that as well as a chair does.
Keep my weight reasonable…… and GIVE ME ALL THE POWER YOU GOT !!!!!!!😊
MO POWER
I think it could be a game changer, we need more power, a new set of ranges working up to 1 or 2 Hp
Hi Guys, just wondering if you could answer my question below (in the 22 replies section) TIA
Think the number of gears is the next evolution... I.e. 'No Gears'!!
Cadence/rpm or whatever you want to call it, will be controlled by modes.
Chainring + belt + rear cog... and 6, 7, 8 or how many modes you want (configured by end user).
Exciting 😎
Less gears but keep the same range... that way you'd be switching when needed, but get all the range of the gears...
what became of the honda dh gearbox from decades ago.
Guys love your content but you gotta decide if you are going to respect your subscriber's views.....the pinion mgu is here and fact is most ebikes are now obsolete. Sam's bikes channel....with a moderate subscriber base .... got his hands on and has put out a super review of the rotwild rx1000 with mgu.
I’d like to see emtb use more similar technologies found in Tesla vehicles. E.g. phone key and app with real time information (data acquisition); plaid motors use of carbon wrapped rotor; ai vision system to adjust compression dampening and gearing; trail-center “supercharging” standard; systems integration; less expensive prices 😅
light and ridable without the battery … maybe totally modular. A one bike concept! Then it’s a buy …
Not impressed with the emtb yet maybe if they aquire the tech from kobra escooter with self charging battery will be great..
Thank you for the note to be civil. Because I was going to preface this with feeling on the point of abuse.
You have never asked if 12 gears were too many for derailleur with those skinny chains and the need to replace the kit after 2 years when used with an ebikes.
The pinion motor gearbox is 2kg more than the Bosch SX. If everything else on the bike is the same it will weigh 2kg more than the Bosch equivalent. If you want a bigger battery bigger forks etc that's what makes the 10kg difference.
The problem with the Pinion is that people will keep their bikes for 20 years and they won't need to watch your show any more
much less than two kilos more if you add derailleur and cassette on top of the SX's weight though
Why couldn't thay use a tension system like a moto x bike ??
I wonder how long this new presenter can take Steve's persona.
I think you mean personality. I don't think he's using a different persona just for RUclips shows. That's how he is, and I like how he comes across personally.
If you were buying a bike now... say, a Santa Cruz Bullit or similar (long travel ebike), would you hold off for some new launches? Or just bite the bullet (ha?) and go for it, since the bike industry has widespread stock issues anyway.
There is no stock issues anymore
Wait for the mgu..it is the future..
Prices came down again after rebate and sales special offerings. So it isn't the worst time I guess. I would also aim for the entry level Pinion mgu E1.12 bike from Bulls, but that might not be available outside Germany. Simplon one with higher travel is already beyond my price point. And if I hadn't an ebike already, I would have just upgraded my mtb with an Aden sports add-on motor, which gave me great joy to ride on the Eurobike this year❤️
Interesting replies folks, thanks. Regarding stock issues: In the UK at least, I think there is. Very difficult to find the right spec, in the right size, in the right colour (Orbea Wild for example).
MGU as the future... I am partially convinced. If it were on more mainstream brands, I'd be sold immediately. Having been bitten before by dead motors (UK winter riding is brutal), there's a lot of value to a local-bike-shop warranty. I should also add that avoid damage from rocks etc is bollocks, there's still a tensioner to break off. Cheaper if it does happen though!
Me, I not going to buy a Ebike till the light weight gearbox belt driven version comes out. To many Positives with no down the line big Maintenance cost! Not going to buy a ebike an then have to change out a worn out drivetrain twice a season No Thanks! Waiting patiently for the Lexus of E-bikes!
And what happens when the battery runs out? Oh, wait...
Can you powerwash an e-bike? and no, I'm not trolling, I really don't know.
Love the idea of central , internal gear boxes for accoustic bikes. Too much going on down there already with a motor. The rear hub gear boxes would pair themselves better with an EMTB. And I agree, only need a 7 or 8 speed, which could really lighten up current rear hub gear systems. Love to see an perfomance emtb set up that way !
Are Gearboxes The Future?
When they get cheap enough...
My turbo levo is cool but I would buy a belt drive and ditch the derailer forever !!!
I have always thought integrated gearbox is the way to go. Really good idea for an e-bike. I’m on the fence regarding belt or chain drive. Belts in theory should be really good but if one breaks you could be stuck. Where as with a chain and a spare link you can get home. In-depth test on the pinion please . Also comparison on belt drive v chain.
Interesting point Steve regarding how many gears an e-bike might need going forward.
Great show .
All the best 👍
MGUs are the future. Look, it's not rocket science. You prefer spending your time cleaning, washing, lubing the damn bike or be out riding? Would you wash your clothes by hand when you can use a wash maschine? It's done. Chains are for analog bikes where every watt/gram matters.
Like it or not…this is THE FUTURE! Near future!