Although I have not tried Pinion's new electric drivetrain, it makes total sense. Gearboxes have already proven themselves on other motorized vehicles, and with how much abuse E-bike drivetrains deal with, it's a natural fit.
Another advantage on full-suspension bikes that I think was missed was that you are removing a lot of unsprung weight off the back wheel. Getting rid of the cassette and derailleur can make a huge difference in suspension performance by minimizing unsprung weight. I think gearboxes would make a lot of sense for downhill bikes where suspension performance supersedes all and weight doesn't matter as much. Also, this would be a great application for electronic shifting, get rid of the grip shift and just use a button shifter and solenoid or motor-based actuation.
I've seen a couple of riders somehow losing their chain during a race run as well, this would (probably?) be eliminated with a belt drive as well. Although you can also use a gearbox with a chain instead of a belt.
Mtb riders embraced 29 in wheels, bigger frames and low pressure tubeless tires. These things are heavier and have more rolling resistance than their older counterparts. It bugs me when people talk about efficiency and weight as drawbacks to gearboxes. They have already proven they will tolerate extra weight and rolling resistance if it has other advantages. Gearboxes are tons better in lots of ways. Cost is the only barrier.
I'm one of these people with a pinion gearbox on my bike (priority 600) and I ride it because it works in all conditions, and deals with off-road and road riding equally well. I love the maintenance being minimal, and the lack of any real issues with having to deal with a chain.
@@JTDPM I've ridden mine for a few years now through all seasons (city conditions), mud, snow, salt, water. It's perfect, I've done zero maintenance so far except for an oil change, which was easy. When it gets really dirt it can be hosed down, the seals in the gearbox are solid.
Really surprised the topic of noise while descending was not mentioned. It's basically silent going downhill, all you hear is the trail chatter on your tyres. So so refreshing. Not to mention a massive reduction in weight off the rear hub with no cassette / derailleurs etc = rear suspension performance through the roof.
I'm surprised he didn't mention how many times you smash the derailleurs system during the rides. I smashed three systems which cost in total over $2'000. You can't really enjoy the ride fully, worrying it may cost you a lot of money and time.
Road bikes are even worse. Proprietary bottle cages, proprietary seat posts, integrated stem-handlebar-control units that only work with the manufacturer's frame… Though I assume TT bikes are even worse than road bikes.
@@SnakebitSTI The idea that bicycles should be standardised between brands confuses me. I work in the bike industry and think we're exceptionally lucky that so many parts are cross-compatible. Try that with a car or motorcycle and you're going to need a milling machine, lathe, drill press, and tig or mig welder.
Worth mentioning, from a touring bike perspective, the Pinion's even spacing between gears makes it easy to keep an even pedaling cadence over rolling terrain. Also with no derailleur protruding, and no oil covered chain, it's easier to load bike into cars, buses, hotel rooms etc.
You briefly mentioned it but yep, these are best suited for ultra endurance cyclists that do thousands of miles on crazy terrain. Ryan Van Duzer is a big belt drive fan.
Hey Seth, i‘m doing an internship as an engineer at Pinion. It is truly a fascinating company with a lot of innovations yet to come. Especially with ebikes or smart shifting solutions there will be some huge impacts on the bike industry in the future!
Hey Juli, I have no engineering background but I'm trying to build a trigger style trigger for the pinion from the ground up! If you know about pinion working on something like this I think it would be fun to collaborate.
For about a month I have been riding a Rohloff speedhub in my commuter- and travel-bike and I must say, I love it! Sure some of the lower gears are a little bit noisy but you get used to it very quickly. For me the instantaneous shifts, low maintanance and durability are way more important than a silent drivetrain.
You are comparing apples and oranges. The Rohloff hub is 98% efficient (it is the most efficient internally geared hub). Also, it lives in your wheel and not your bottom bracket. Frankly Rohloff hubs are not for mountain bikes. But, also, this pinion box is a POS. I don't know why seth is shilling it other than greed. These things are really inefficient. 9 meshed gears plus windage losses because of the oil bath inside it. Where they may shine is cross country where conditions can be horrific. Pedaling through mud in a heavy downpour and other bad environments and where reliability is really, really important. But the Rohloff is already the king of this application. Where pinion really is bad is service. Just try getting it serviced in some small town in the middle of the back country in Mexico or something. You could be off the road for weeks waiting for replacement parts.
After destroying 2 Alfine 11's in 1 year, I went Rolhoff. 2 years later, I'm still riding my obese recumbent tadpool with a BIG grin, and the second oil change coming up.
Also one of my favorite features of the pinion gearbox is the ability at the bottom of a hill to switch it to its first gear and instantly get up the hell without having to move around first and change gears on the go. Especially useful in traffic when you stop at a red light at the beginning of or in the middle of an uphill climb!
Also useful when mountain biking and failing to drop enough gears and having to put a foot down. Being able to drop into 1st and start pedaling rather than having to hike-a-bike to a flat spot is really nice for those of us who suck at mountain biking.
But that's not how you go up a hill unless you're on an ebike. You start out quick, but gradually slow down when going up the slope. You *want* to shift on the go, under load, to keep your cadence constant.
Belt drive with an Onyx hub on a nice fall morning would be epic!! Just the tires rolling and your heart beating through your chest on the climbs. Amazing.
Great to see Pinion mentioned on this channel! :) I don't maintain my bikes. I suck at doing that, that is the main reason I ride Pinion since 2012. Currently on my 4th Pinion bike (all Nicolai's) this one with a C 1.12 box. (612% range out of my head.) 1.18 is available, same range, smoother ratio. It is indeed 0 maintenance also in bad bad winter weather. (Rain, snow, mud, salty roads, etc, I don't have a car, so I always commute on this as well.) Just inject fresh oil once a year, or roughly once a year. I once did no oil change for 2 years, because it is "maintenance", but no problems. :) The grip shift they use is now quite outdated, later this year they will release the electronic shifter for the general public. For my riding style it has very little drawbacks. If I have to mention 2: You indeed loose a percentage of the power that is put into it, especially on the higher gears. (I would say 5% average compared to a perfectly new and fresh chain+cassette setup.) I never was able to feel that loss on a full suspension bike, but now that I ride a hardtail, I start to notice it a tiny bit when I put over 330 watts in it, but that is seldom. (But we are nowhere near early Nexus hub levels of loss, or the spongy feeling that gives.) A second issue: in a 12 speed box there is 1 point where you can't shift under load, I think somewhere between 8 and 9 in gears. I have that habit of "clutching" during my shift because of this. I never know when that gear is going to come along. That manual clutching I do now, (0,5 sec off the power) will be done by the electronic shifter in the newer, upcoming box. (probably in a matter of milliseconds, and you can stay on the power.) I don't care about the weight, but the system is in total about 700 grams heavier than XX1. It is heavy, but the weight is in the right place, with very little unsprung mass, a plus for a fully. All in all, very reliable. I ride about 6000km a year without issues, and without maintenance. Yes pricey, but worth it, and I don't own a car, so that money has to be wasted somewhere. :D Oh one last thing: the silence of this drive, especially with belt is something else, it is swooshy, but never grindy so to speak. :)
I got a Priority 600 with pinion c1.12, hydro disks, belt drive, and dyno hub. Some of the components are pretty cheap but it's been completely reliable, which is what I was going for on a commuter bike. It lives outside through all seasons. I do definitely feel the friction a bit but it's worth it for casually getting around. The gear range is insane
Love my 600 as well. The components that are "cheap" aren't bad by any means. They're just not luxury. They chose totally competent but affordable parts for everything they could to be able to afford Pinion at $2500.
@@aboutthearthur i totally agree. i'll upgrade over time as things wear out. my lights recently stopped working so i'll move to some better ones (or a better dynohub if that's what failed... i haven't checked yet). they made really smart choices to hit the price point, and i'm really grateful that they made it possible to afford
I recently bought a Zerode Taniwha a few months back and i absolutely love it. Effectively zero maintenance and super reliable. Efficiency is hardly noticeable. Best thing i’ve ever bought and i could never go back to a conventional drive chain, especially since conditions here in the UK are regularly wet and gritty, wearing out chains and derailleurs super quickly. It is just so much better 😂😂
I'm surprised he didn't mention how many times you smash the derailleurs system during the rides. I smashed three systems which cost in total over $2'000. You can't really enjoy the ride fully, worrying it may cost you a lot of money and time. Completely agree! It's a game-changer. Zero maintenance - omg, it's a blessing. So much time is spent on cleaning, putting oil on a chain, and changing the chain. All that mess is gone! These two systems can't compete. Pinion wins in every aspect. There is no debate!
Do you people know of any other brands besides Zerode who are running the Pinion on trail bikes, enduro bikes? Carbon or alloy frames, either? Being in the USA, the shipping from NZ is wildly expensive.
@@alpascua3348 Yes, I've known about that model for a little while now. Quite interested in it. It's not to the same purpose and use case as the full suspension Zerode but from where I sit, probably covers the first 70% of its capability.
Cybro No.5 & No.6 from Cybro Industries in Bassano Del Grappa, Italy also use the Pinion C1.12 with Gates Carbon Drive belts. Both are fantastic to ride. Like everything different they take a little time to adjust to the way they shift. Once you get the hang of it you probably wouldn't go back. Hint, the Gates belts do break, so carry a spare. We broke one on a Cybro No.7 and didn't have a spare - that was the end of that ride for the day on that bike, lesson learnt.
@@twillyspanksyourcakes Just because an internal gear setup isn't as prone to failure doesn't mean they can't fail. The thing about a derailleur setup is I can bodge it to get myself home if I don't have the necessary tools and spare parts to repair it properly. If I'm really concerned about long distances in remote areas where I'm concerned about failure, I'll just use friction shifters and an 8 speed chain and cassette. I work as a bike mechanic, I've seen internal geared hubs and belt drives fail quite catastrophically, and there's absolutely no workaround except walking. Customers are also furious when their "durable" setup costs them several times more to repair, especially if it's failed much sooner than the marketing guys would have them believe its good for.
No chance of road side repairs though, but I think it partly depends on where you are riding though. Even the perfect system fails, after it fails my priority would be to get back on the road.
For free riding, when you start going high altitude, this thing is fire. All the times i broke a derailleur by hitting rocks could’ve been avoid with this. And i often carry by bike on my back, and the weight being directly over my shoulders instead of way far on the rear wheel helps a lot for carrying
Just a minor technicality, the Pinion does not use planetary gears, rather conventional gears on 2 shafts side-by-side like a manual transmission in a car. In addition, in the 12-speed model, it has two stages, not one as cars do, meaning 4 speeds in the first stage are fed to 3 speeds in the second, multiplying like front and rear derailleurs. A very well-presented, unbiased, and balanced review. Not your typical fanboy stuff, ha ha! Thank you. PS: A mini planetary gearset is used for shifting only, I believe. It is not part of the powertrain. It's the one you see when you take the round cap off the side where the shifter cables enter.
Thank you for this video, I was waiting for it from you for years 🙂 Being one of those gearbox enthusiasts, I have one thing to add: efficiency is not that bad as it may sound from your vid, difference betweens factory fresh piece and meshed in one is significant. Also that efficiency stays there no matter what, so if you have well maintained, clean deraileur, you can beat gearbox. Once you start clogging it with mud or whatever, conventional system starts taking a nosedive, while gearbox is still as "ineficient" as it was in the begining. So yeah, enduro, MTBO, commuters, long distance travellers... You should really try it in a long term, because that is where it shines the best...
✔️ He's right in what ^he said in the first 5 secs of this video, about the big companies who wield major influence over the bicycle component industry. As far back as the 1950s, President Eisenhower warned Americans about 3 big industries that threatened the health and well being of our international society. He warned about: 1). The military industrial complex 2). Big tobacco 3). Big derailleur. Ike was way ahead of the curve on that last one! 😁
Tbh at least with the ~8-11 gear boxes that are often used on city bikes today, I found they have palpable resistance, especially at low speed. My slightly cheaper bike with derailleuer has less resistance on high and low gears. Although the bikes in the video are on the extreme end, so idk if thats really comparable.
1:30 - Change the oil once a year? Yeah, right. Changing the oil in "gearboxes" isn't even a thing in the automotive world. I suppose that some people change it from time to time, but for the most part, the oil in a manual transmission and differential housing (AKA: "rearend") is in there for the life of the vehicle (they merely get topped off if they are low, not an oil change), and those gears are under much greater stresses/loads than the gears in a bicycle gearbox will ever see.
Great to see a bike from New Zealand on your channel Seth. I've wanted a Taniwha for ages. Jamie from @NewZealandMountainBiking rides one. For those considering it, it's pronounced, "Tah-nee-far"
Also worth mentioning n Maori mythology, taniwha are large supernatural beings that live in deep pools in rivers, dark caves, or sea. Cool name for a bike
The transmission doesn’t use a planetary gearset, it resembles an automotive manual transmission with straight cut gears, whereas road cars use helical gears. That’s the reason why it’s relatively noisy, but it does make it even more efficient. It will be much more efficient than a gearbox with a planetary gearset.
I have one for commuting, all day, every day, every weather (try salted snow slush with your deraileur, and a couple of freez/thaw cycles). To keep the efficiency advantage of a derraileur you need to do a lot of maintencance.
I picked up a Priority 600X almost 2 years ago now. It has over 1300 maintenance free miles thus far on it. It hauls all my bikepacking gear for me and I love this bike!
The Pinion MGU already makes so much sense for e-MTB's from reliability, to unsprung weight off of the rear wheel (and only adds a few hundred grams over a regular drivetrain). Once they make a gearbox within a few hundred grams of a regular analog-MTB's drivetrain and very efficient, they will soon take over. Not to mention, there would be a massive benefit in terms of pedalling by taking a heavy cassette off of the rear wheel.
the most informative and honest assessment of the gear box comparison i’ve heard…i like the cvt gear box or hub…with no transition between gears…you can set your gearing, within the full range, at any setting…you can also change setting when you are stopped …i would like to see you cover an assessment of these…thanks brother!
Pinion and Rohloff with belt drive are used by lots of bikepackers. Pinion especially is preferred by lots of around the world bikepackers, because of virtually no maintenance need.
@@rosomak8244 At Euro Bike 2022 in Frankfurt Germany, I think they were on about 20% of the bikes on display and there were a lot of bikes on display. I have ridden them on several different bikes including the Cybro No.5 and No.6 from Cybro Industries in Italy. Yes they are a little heavier, shifting feel different, but they are unreal. I'm from Australia and they are rare to see however 18 months ago I ran into a rider on the Yack Tracks at Yackandandah, Victoria Australia (which is not exactly in a city) riding with a Pinion - I think he was using a C1.6 or C1.9 and he loved it - also he was quick both up and down some pretty steep hills on the Yack Tracks.
My 11 speed Shimano was $400 its on my commuter bike and has trigger change. It is DEAD silent and never misses a beat. The rattling dirty derailleur cassette dropped the chain at the worst time, oily black hands at the start of a working day even after scrubbing left black finger nail edges.I was all too aware that one chain fail crossing a busy road would be hospital or death. A great advantage is sequential shifting, trigger up 10 times or thumb down using every gear in order simply, Try working out the crazy shifting to do that on a bike with a front derailleur! I have had this for two and a half years I travel 34km a day to work and back and so far maintenance is a hose down after rain and oil once in two and a half years...
I get my Pinion geared Nicolai next week. Nearly no maintenance, robustness, especially in winter conditions, and the better weight distribution. I didn't have too much time for riding, so I don't want to lose time due to maintenance. I had a test drive with a Pinion bike a few months ago and loved it.
I could be wrong but by the picture shown of the transmission that doesn't look like a planetary gear. Rather just a driveshaft and countershaft both with gears on it. Still cool stuff though.
I think the biggest reason they aren’t as common is because they need a compatible frame to work with and those same frames are not compatible with traditional bottom brackets either. It’s less about upgrading your drivetrain and more about getting an entirely new bike. I’m sure established bike manufacturers have a harder time adapting to pinion because they don’t want to invest all the money into retooling their frame production to accept the gearbox and selling the bike for $1600 more than it would with a traditional derailleur.
Totally agree with this. I now have two Pinion bikes, but that's only because I wanted specific full-bike upgrades for specific purposes (touring and bikepacking) and made the decision to select a pair of Priority bikes. Since you have to buy the whole thing as a purpose-built package, it's not like I could have "upgraded" to a Pinion setup on the Trek and Fuji I had beforehand.
They aren’t adopted because of 1) inefficiency, 2) cost, 3) compatibility, in that order. Why would I pay more for a bike that is sluggish? I have played around with one, the added drag is very noticiable.
I'm yet to hear the efficiency numbers but I know the old planetary gear hubs had a pretty low efficiency. Around town the old Raleigh's I used to ride daily did a great job. Wondering how much Pinion has been able to improve efficiency? Seems like it would be geared more towards everyday riders rather than race types(except DH?) given the need for maximum efficiency over convenience and ease of maintenance. Also the other potential benefit of a gearbox is a stronger rear wheel as all the dish for a cassette is no longer needed so even spoke tension in addition to instant shifting could be a real boon to the DH set.
I mean, they'd do it in no time if they wish. They did for disc brakes which required different designs and considering different fatigue points in both the frame AND the fork vs. rim brake bicycles.
Spent 8 days on a euro trip using a commuter style bike with a gear box and was very impressed with the shifting feel and bulletproof design. Would not hesitate to recommend it
Hi, I own a Zerode taniwha enduro since a few weeks. Yes, the pinion gesrbox has at the beginning some noticeable drag, but it wears in and after a few rides with serious climbing the drag is way lower. I also was skeptical about the grip shift, btw Instinctiv bikes offers a trigger shifter for their pinion bikes, but know I think, after getting used to it, it is the best way to go. Cheers
Is there anything about an early oil change in the owner's manual, to flush out any metallic debris from the meshing of gear sets when they wear together? All manufactured gears in transmissions have machining variances on gear teeth that will bed to other mating gears, and shed microscopic bits of metal initially, and smooth out with a bit of use.
Efficiency is the big issue, yeah. 5%ish efficiency loss might not sound like much, but it adds up over distance. Though the Pinion gearbox is pretty close to a dirty derailleur drive train, and a dirty chain grinds away at the gears while you ride.
While i already knew that belts and gearboxes made it's entry into MTB scene, i never yet seen a prominent MTB influencer cover it 😁 Also - what you said about people owning it using it out there is so right! It's particulary useful for bike touring wher low maintenence and low failures are really nice to have. 😁
'm surprised he didn't mention how many times you smash the derailleurs system during the rides. I smashed three systems which cost in total over $2'000. You can't really enjoy the ride fully, worrying it may cost you a lot of money and time. Completely agree! It's a game-changer. Zero maintenance - omg, it's a blessing. So much time is spent on cleaning, putting oil on a chain, and changing the chain. All that mess is gone! These two systems can't compete. Pinion wins in every aspect. There is no debate!
I have a Pinion C1.12 on my allrounder city bicycle. I will never buy a bicycle again without a Pinion gearbox. I can assure you, the efficiency is not a problem. Only a clean and well oiled derailleur is actually more efficient. If that derailleur and the chain gets just a bit dirty it’s worse. If the belt gets dirty, it basically doesn’t care. And i know more people that don’t maintain their chain like they are supposed to, including me. That’s why i have a Pinion + belt.
You definitely feel a bit of efficiency loss. Although it’s probably less than a dirty derailleur (i.e. after 15 minutes on trail). And it’s supposed to break in after 500km or so, would become much smoother.
This is an interesting point a lot of people have brought up. When a derailleur gets all mucked up and dirty on a long ride, it too loses efficiency while the gearbox remains constant. Depending on the nature of your ride, a gearbox could be equally as efficient and cause you fewer issues.
@@SethsBikeHacks the derailleur system is also less efficient at either end of the cassette due to cross chaining. Add some mud and grit and they would be pretty similar.
Just like a car or motorcycle transmission, they have a wear-in time where the meshing teeth lose their tiny machining variances and smooth out, reducing friction and reducing noise. An oil change would be advisable to remove the tiny flecks of metal probably, and thereafter, good to go.
@@SethsBikeHacks long-term review incoming: So it’s 8 month later and 3K kilometers, mostly gravel and bikepacking-like tours in Cyprus mountains. Gearbox became buttery smooth long ago, had yet to have any issue at all. In total I can remember like three times the gear skipping (for a quarter of a turn) probably due to very unlucky shift and very hard pedalling. No maintenance, no nothing, just wash the bike once in a while. Several times went through clay after the rain, bike got unbelievably dirty, no issues with the belt drive. Due to change the oil soon (kit is like 20 euro or something), which is a very straightforward operation. Also got spare belt, just to be sure on them extended mountain trips (not expecting current one to break, but new belt is not that expensive and weights nothing). I’ve got 12-speed version (with 600% range), which means that 1st gear is waaaay to low to move (steepest climbs are like 3rd gear for me), but the 12th is OK for pedalling for up to about 40km/h with my gearing - which is road bike territory. Al in all - it’s a dream come true. Would surely recommend.
Great to see a balanced review of the Zerode. I’ve been on one for over two years and can’t see myself ever going back. Your pros and cons were on the money. Nice work - as always. 👍
'm surprised he didn't mention how many times you smash the derailleurs system during the rides. I smashed three systems which cost in total over $2'000. You can't really enjoy the ride fully, worrying it may cost you a lot of money and time. Completely agree! It's a game-changer. Zero maintenance - omg, it's a blessing. So much time is spent on cleaning, putting oil on a chain, and changing the chain. All that mess is gone! These two systems can't compete. Pinion wins in every aspect. There is no debate!
I’ve owned 3 internal hubs and now own a Rohloff with a Gates Belt drive for the last 9 years. I love it, I’ve done 3 bike tours and 4 adventure races on it. It’s way more flexible than a Pinion and has other shifter options.
Belt drive makes much better sense. Harleys, snow mobiles, can ame, Spyder all belt drive. Would be much better than a chain. Also shaft driven, zero maintenance just oil change once a year or 3. Love my shaft drive Honda
If I had the money I would be riding a Rohloff, recently had one in the store that was shipped to Rohloff for a full overhaul, it did over 50000 kilometres so far and still is going strong. The inspection log had one oil change every year on it for the last eleven years and this was the first time it went back to Rohloff according to the documentation provided. On the efficiency statistics, regular drive-trains are almost always stated in perfect conditions, so no dirt or wear what so ever. Not really realistic out on the trail where the only time your chain is clean is in the garage after it was just washed. So they are closer together, tho there still is a difference for sure. But one you will only notice if you race I guess.
I got to try a Rohloff about 7 years ago, and am curious how far they have come. I remember it being really compact, and it was on a pretty normal looking bike. That could be another cool thing to look into.
@@SethsBikeHacks they are just regular gear hubs that fit pretty much every normal bike. They also have the grip shift with two cables but offer electronic shifting with Bosch or Panasonic ebikes. The hub itself is pretty much the same with only iterative changes over the years. Still expensive at a thousand bucks, but at least works with normal frames. Great range of over 520% (more than a 10-51 tooth!) with 14 gears. There are multiple ones doing 100000 kilometres so longevity really is there too. But you still have a weight penalty but efficiency is around 4% better than Pinion.
One thing to note of efficiencies, the timing belt actually has nearly the same efficiency as a roller chain, its the gearbox which is the primary cause for the difference in overall efficiency of the system
The consistency of the gearbox would bring the efficiency comparison closer, because derailleur and chain systems are all over the place in their efficiency numbers with a host of non-consistent factors. The average comparison between the two makes this more of an emotional debate than anything anyone would actually worry about. It's like the people who obsess over a few grams difference in weight, when they could lose 5 pounds of body fat to start with.
To be honest, I'm going to get a gearbox for my next bike no matter what. Maybe I just need something new, or maybe I've been successfully brainwashed, but I'm going to go for it!
Do it! That's why I bought a Priority 600X. I like bikepacking, and just wanted to try a different drivetrain. Turns out, I really like the Pinion gearbox and belt drive. No major complaints. I'm not totally giving up on derailleurs either. Different bikes for different situations!
My commuter bike has a belt drive with a Shimano Alfine hub and I love it for that. I've heard of people using that kind of setup for mountain biking, but I haven't seen any in person before.
@@oiyile1971Sorry I missed your previous comment for so long! I have a Brilliant L-train with the 8-speed hub and disc brakes. Recently they stopped selling it with the 8-speed though :(
They also argue that by moving the mass of the cluster off the rear wheel and into, the centre allows improved suspension design. The pinion gearbox motor + electronic shifting looks exciting!
Depending on gear selected with today's derailleur systems, the effective chain pull angles on rear suspension is chaining between pro-squat and anti-squat geometry. With a belt drive, it never changes no matter the gear.
I have a pinion gearbox on my Priority 600x. I use it for all types of riding and really enjoy it. I've put somewhere between 500-800 miles on it since owning it with no issues so far. I ride it on trails, city commuting and just a quick ride around the neighborhood. I find myself riding longer because I enjoy it more than my cassette driven bike.
Who's this for? How about multiple world championships downhill winner Gregg Minnaar he was the first to use it and it was manufactured by Honda of all companies 🤔
I drive now for 2 months with a Pinion gearbox and never want anything else. This works super well and wear is no longer an issue. You also notice how positive the weight savings on the rear wheel for the function of the suspension is. And btw: compares times the weight of a Pinion transmission with a new SRAM group ...
I’m excited for the smart shift version to get on bikes. Not down with the grip shift. Also you didn’t talk about the fact that you can change hear with out pedaling. I think the mgu will be a game changer for e-bikes
@@doctajuice I may be wrong but I believe with the electronic shift version of the gearbox you can shift while pedaling. What it does is it wont shift until you are at the top of your stroke and thus the gearbox is under no load.
I asked a couple of local bike shops what they thought of these, both said they are sweet, fairly easy to install, incredible to use. But, they both agreed, if and when they do go wrong, they are very difficult to repair. Not impossible, but it's going to be expensive because they take a lot of time. Maybe that's their lack of experience with them, if we all had them, they'd be far easier, as there'd be a lot of information on how to do it. But the entry fee here in the UK is around £2,500 plus fitting and setup. Should you get a great gearbox, it should last decades with only an oil change every year and new cables as and when. Of course, should get a lemon... But don't Dutch bikes have them? Or at least a lot more of them?
Glad you got to try that bike and to comment on the pinion gear box! I’ve been riding the Priority 600 for several years now and I absolutely love it. I think it’s perfectly suited for touring and commuting, but I’m not sure about how well it would work on a mountain bike. I know the same company makes the Priority 600 X which Ryan Van Duzer helped design to be their gear box hardtail. It looks pretty sweet but is well out of my price range. The Priority 600 really is my favorite bike but it’s expensive enough that I would prefer to beat up a much cheaper bike out on the trail.
Every single vid from Seth is entertaining or informative. This gearbox looks awesome, but with that grip shifter, don’t you find yourself having to adjust your grip with every shift? 🤔
As far as I understand it the gripshift is said to be neccesary as the gearshifting mechanism need strong pull in each direction in order to change gear. It would be cool if they could engineer around this problem, perhaps they will in the future.
@@SimonBauer7I've seen the is at least one out there, but it's spring based for the second cable. Haven't tried it, but seems it means you do 2x the work to up shift so it can down shift for you.
Yes, I sometimes find this annoying, but only under very specific circumstances. A company called Cinq makes a trigger shifter (left and right paddle) for Pinion (C-line) It is too expensive for me. The upcoming electronic shifter (and proprietary updated Pinion box) will finally get rid of the twister. :)
@@SimonBauer7 I suppose isom sort of trigger shifter will be done eventually. As fot the wireless - as Seth mentioned the gerabox is well suted to the most extreme conditions - Like a guy pedaling over Gobi desert. In those conditons I guess the simple soliution wins over and is a one thing less to take care of. With that being said, I still belive it could go a long way to spread the apeal od gearbox drivetrain.
I'm leasing a trekking bike by Gudereit since August of 2023 (wanted some gravel first) with such a C1.12 and it's great for commuting, we only have some hills here (however a couple of mountains just 30 miles south) and I mostly use gears 4-10, 11 and 12 only if I'm really fast/downhill. My dad said one of his work colleagues got a similar trekking bike since the early 2010s (so when Pinion was brand new) and it still runs fine. I would like to add some things: the C1.12 and the other C-Series have magnesium cases while the P-Series use heavier aluminium; the C1.12 has a total transmission range of 600% and every step is +/-50% (it's a little odd in the beginning, it often rapidly shift up my derailleurs when accelerating, two/three gears at once, here you rather shift up single steps and rather don't skip gears), so you're shifting linear, the P1.18 even got 636% in 18 steps so each shift is +/-35.3%. There's also another German bicycle transmission: The Rohloff Speedhub 500/14, this is around since 1998 and also has its niche (but they achieved 400k built/sold in 2023), cost you over a thousand bucks and is a heavy unsprung weight, but it's extremely reliable, the record holder has reached 384.400 kilometres in 2019 - the distance from earth to moon. As the name suggests is has 14 steps and a range of a little over 500%. IMHO it's worth mentioning that both of these usually have grip shifters with two wires and that's because the indexing isn't in done by the shifter like on derailleurs or other hubs but the gearbox itself and the Pinion simply doesn't shift, if you're too hard on the pedals (you can't turn the grip), it's a nice overload protection and thanks to muscle memory you'll automatically relief the pressure on the pedals when attempting to shift in a few weeks. Maybe I'll give mine some winter tires for upcoming winter season (or my cheapo Pegasus it's literally my spare bike now, I use it to get to the main station and lock it on there (and go by train without the bike) or if I go drinking/partying, it wouldn't bother me too much if that would get stolen), it's also perfect for that due to its encapsulation.
I have a Pinion 1.18 and love it. Maintenance is an hour each year, change the oil and check the shifting cables. Fast-quick multi-gear changes at a time. If I forget to shift at a stoplight- no problem- just shift to the one you want. If you hear a squeak (no grinding or slapping ever) rinse off the carbon belt drive and continue on. I'm not breaking chains, bending derailleurs, cleaning and greasing chains, adjusting cables, yada-yada. I ride, not fix my bike. I agree it's not the right option for racing. I'm a touring nerd, so I want to be able to ride for days on end and never worry about the drivetrain. Expensive yes- but if you haven't tried it, don't knock it. The weight-to-convenience ratio should make the Pinion an option to consider.
Personally, I'm sold on gearbox transmissions. Lower maintenance, less likelihood of breaking a derailleur, or bending a derailleur hanger, plus a wider range of gears. What's not to like? I recently had a Rohloff 14-speed transmission installed for a 2nd bike. This time my trusty Specialized S-Works Turbo Levo received a Rohloff upgrade. Gotta say it is sweet. With a wider range of gears, I can now climb pretty much everywhere, I am loving it. I'm now enjoying the uphill flow every time I ride. This thing just performs perfectly. If you are considering a gearbox, just do it.
gearboxes belong on bikes you actually want to ride in rough terrain without smashing them to bits just while riding, so they definitely belong on mtbs
A Pinion MTB is my great white whale... You forgot to mention the unsprung weight that's less when using a gearbox. Also a conventional drivetrain is more efficiënt, but only when it's clean. So during a muddy ride that can go south pretty fast. There are Pinion bikes with conventional gear levers (Instinctiv bike) but the two cable's remain.
I've tried Shimano's internal geared hub thing while working at a bike shop. It was annoying to service but maybe that's just because I was more used to derailleurs. Thought it wasn't particularly something I'd get but was a fraction of the pinion price so I'd bet my thoughts would change if I tried the pinion.
If you want low maintenance for commuting, you can't go wrong with a Nexus 8. Costs about 1/8th of a Rolhoff. But I wouldn't advertise them for heavy duty.
Couple of years back I had an NuVinici N380 Continuously Variable hub installed on my Catrike Expedition recumbent trike. I love the hell out of it, it's nice not having any gears or in between gear issues. Instead of a derailleur I use a chain tensioner, Origin 8. Those belts last forever ten times longer than a bike chain.
I come from New Zealand where Zerode is based and several of my friends are on their ambsidor team. also it pronounced Tanifa as opposed to Taniwa (f sound in place of the w). Lets help the end to big derraliur hope you decide to buy a Zerode (the Tanwha Mulet is amazing)
I'm surprised that you didn't mention hub gears, where the gearbox is shoved in the rear hub. They're somewhat common on commuter bikes where I live, where the (unmentioned) advantage of shifting whilst stationary is quite useful
they add unsprung weight to the rear wheel, which impacts the effectiveness of th rear suspension, I'm sure I heard that mentioned in the video. I'd love hub gearing with a belt for my middrive commuter/urban ebike which currently is a Shimano 9-speed with a Shimano middrive
A ride buddy has a Pinion, works very nicely. But as with everything there are upsides (range, less day to day maintenance, cleaner) and downsides (limited choice of frames, weight, cost new). It has to use a grip shift as the gearbox has to be positively shifted both ways although an electronic shift is coming which will fix that.
Been riding with a gearbox and belt for almost 2 years now and NEVER going back to derailleurs! I was always astounded with perfectly fine cassettes being thrown away because my chain needed replacement ‘and so did my cassette’ to match the new chain. Bumped my derailleur so many times, went through hanger after hanger, got dirty and spent so much time being frustrated by my drivetrain… my Pinion gearbox fixed all of that. Anyone reading this who wants to travel by bike - get a gearbox bike!
I'm rocking an IGH (shimano alfine 8) with a mid drive motor, and I LOVE it, and that's basically the same thing. I do run it mostly as a commuter though.
I love my retrofitted Rolhoff hub gearbox (on an orange 66 freeride bike). I've done about 15000km offroad on it over about 20 years, I wash the bike about every year, I've never changed the oil, and I oil the chain every month or two. Ive never changed a chain or anything on the drive train. (Rolhoff chain is way stronger than flimsy shifty ones). Its been the best thing about that bike (my old fave bike). Used to have one on the mountian tandem as well but the cable friction was too high over that length so had to switch back to deraillleur, but the tandem is the perfect application for a hub, and every time I ride it I wish it could have worked.
Not exactly what he has, but as someone with 2 14spd Rohloff Speedhubs (Internal gear HUB in the rear where the cassette would be in a traditional setup) I can tell you they are extremely reliable. I had by first problems with them after 9 years of MTB use across about 6000 miles and no maintenance except oil changes. The first one had the chain sprocket break and it was 25 dollar fix I did in 15 minutes. The 2nd one had the shift cables fray and one of the strands got bunched up on the shifter making it so I could only shift between 2 gears, this was a 40 dollar 1 hour fix. I also ride year around in all conditions including snowy/icy conditions with salt on the road/paved trails. EDIT: one of the bonuses of a Rohloff Hub over Pinion is efficiency. Rohloff Hubs are about 92-95% efficient. Derailleurs when clean and new are 95-97% efficient, however this deteriorates over time as they get dirty and worn. You can lose as much as 8% efficiency on derailleur if its filthy and rubbing and not indexed correctly. This never happens with a Rohloff. I do have to admit, it does add an extra pound to the rear wheel which will effect how rear suspension handles though.
Recumbent trike riders have been using these for years. They want more gears then regular bikes but we have more issues when we electrify trikes. The thing about Pinion is that its harder to install, you have to start modifying the boom, which is actually on the front instead of in the middle of the bike. Rohloff and Schlumpf are more common options. Pinion is the newer player here but it has a better warranty and is quieter. Its like you said, you need that 6 bolt BB. Pinion is the hardest to install. Having a 18 gear Pinion MGU wont solve all the issues, as it produces redundant gears when paired with internally geared hubs, so its often better to get a 6 speed Pinion and a hub at the back. At least in the case of a trike, you will still have a chain as well
Along with the host of really significant other advantages mentioned in the comments.idlike to add that the gearbox beds in and gets more efficient. Also as soon as your chainline is angled significantly or there is a bit of mud. The Zerode Taniwha at least matches the efficiency. I bought mine for enduro style riding. But it so often outperformed in crosscountryish or bike packing that its my go to bike for nearly everything. And the price of the zerode bike is less than a santa cruz or pivot at similar spec. Its been such a revelation and improvement to my riding experience I'm amazed everyone isnt buying them. But yes i dont crosscountry race.
Great video. They now have and electronic shifting system that ditches the grip shift. I’m gonna eventually get a bike with one of these. Chains etc are a PITA
May i mention that the Pinion C-line's main competitor, the Effigear Mimic, solves, if not makes steps towards improving 3 of those issues, price, weight and shifter compatibility. Its also much smaller. C-line weight: 2.1kg Mimic weight: 900g-2kg C-line price: €1,400 Mimic price: €1,000 C-line shifter: dual cable twist shifter or Cinq dual cable trigger shifter Mimic shifter: any Sram Eagle shifter
First learned of these through Bicycle Touring Pro on his CoMotion Cycles touring bike; great alternative to a Rohloff for those riding thousands of miles without maintenance. CoMotion even has tandems with the Pinion. After watching this it makes perfect sense that Pinion just released an ebike version of this :)
That was a great entertaining and informative video Seth. Loved the variety of trails you rode and the also the different scenes you chose to explain your different points about it. Love the bike.
I have owned a Pionion equipped bike, rode it 2016 season. The frame was not great (a Musing from GER), but I loved the Pinion, except for parts being hard to come by. For XC or trail riding, it wasn't a great feel. For anything descending oriented, it was fantastic. I will 100% own another one. When I replace my Nicolai G1, I will probably do so with a gearbox equipped Nicolai. If there was more parts availability and options, I believe a sizable portion of gravity focused riders would be on one. Perfect for 140-200mm bikes
Now they have SmartShift option so you don't have to have gripshift any more. I got a Zerode Taniwha this year with 9spd 600% ratio smartshift - bullet-proof and so quiet on the downhill - no chainslap or grindy gears from not cleaning the chain.
You lost me at grip shift. I rode grip shift when i couldn't afford better in the 90s, and was so happy when i could finally afford a real shifter. Grip shift is hell on bumpy trails or big hits. Enduro? bumps and grip shift? hateful... Grip shift was the worst thing i ever wasted money on. lmk when there's an option that doesn't suck. I have a parts bin that goes back to the early 90s, but there's no grip shift there. The ONLY time in the last 30 years I threw away working parts was when i rid myself of the abomination that was grip shift.
Dude finally, I've been waiting for years to hear your views on gearboxes! I have a belt drive commuter with a Shimano alfine11 and absolutely became a belt convert. Still ride my derailleur MTB sometimes but it feels so weird now. I've ridden the commuter on some MTB trails and it handled it like a champ, thin tires were terrifying but worked out ok. So I know belly+huh gear is fine on MTB but so annoyed they're so expensive. Big derailleur indeed! My MTB badly needs a drive train overhaul, chain is stretched etc but really can't see myself spending on it, I want a priority 600x to replace both bikes!
The transmission losses are higher than for DR bikes, but if you are not doing XC, gravel or road racing then a gearbox bike makes a lot of sense. Belt drives require a splitable rear triangle.
The best thing is that Pinion released their own E-Bike motor with integrated gearbox. That makes the most sense, since the gearbox drag is going to be negligible on an E-Bike. Right now I'm riding a Turbo Levo and I can't wait to get my hands on Pinion E-Bike.
They really make the most sense on e-bikes. That motor/gearbox combo Pinion released with electronic shifting is the ideal situation for this.
not having a derailleur to smash off on a regular mtb doesnt make sense?
The only Problem left with these pinion mgu bike is that they start at 5500€😅
So the gearbox - motor combination most likely costs at least 2500€
Although I have not tried Pinion's new electric drivetrain, it makes total sense. Gearboxes have already proven themselves on other motorized vehicles, and with how much abuse E-bike drivetrains deal with, it's a natural fit.
@@thescerigai People say like this happens all the time.
@@NikolaiVozza you ride cross country dont you?
Another advantage on full-suspension bikes that I think was missed was that you are removing a lot of unsprung weight off the back wheel. Getting rid of the cassette and derailleur can make a huge difference in suspension performance by minimizing unsprung weight. I think gearboxes would make a lot of sense for downhill bikes where suspension performance supersedes all and weight doesn't matter as much. Also, this would be a great application for electronic shifting, get rid of the grip shift and just use a button shifter and solenoid or motor-based actuation.
For all interested how a dh bike with a gearbox looks, zerode has one ( i believe its called g3) and theres a swiss brand called gamux bikes
You make a great point! You could even design the ‘buttons’ to look and feel like traditional thumb paddle shifters to help ease the transition.
I've seen a couple of riders somehow losing their chain during a race run as well, this would (probably?) be eliminated with a belt drive as well. Although you can also use a gearbox with a chain instead of a belt.
Pinion recently released their Smart.Shift Gearbox which is electronic :)
Mtb riders embraced 29 in wheels, bigger frames and low pressure tubeless tires.
These things are heavier and have more rolling resistance than their older counterparts.
It bugs me when people talk about efficiency and weight as drawbacks to gearboxes. They have already proven they will tolerate extra weight and rolling resistance if it has other advantages. Gearboxes are tons better in lots of ways. Cost is the only barrier.
I'm one of these people with a pinion gearbox on my bike (priority 600) and I ride it because it works in all conditions, and deals with off-road and road riding equally well. I love the maintenance being minimal, and the lack of any real issues with having to deal with a chain.
Have you ridden it in really muddy conditions?
How is the ride when the battery dies 🪫 and motor went off?
@@JTDPM I've ridden mine for a few years now through all seasons (city conditions), mud, snow, salt, water. It's perfect, I've done zero maintenance so far except for an oil change, which was easy. When it gets really dirt it can be hosed down, the seals in the gearbox are solid.
I’ve ridden in muddy conditions and there is mo battery or motor on the bike
@@PsychicDavidJames how is the pedal feel without motor power?
Really surprised the topic of noise while descending was not mentioned. It's basically silent going downhill, all you hear is the trail chatter on your tyres. So so refreshing. Not to mention a massive reduction in weight off the rear hub with no cassette / derailleurs etc = rear suspension performance through the roof.
i want a silent hub for this reason! the zerode is STUPID quite going down
I tested one of these for a few days in NZ - best descending bike I have ever ridden and i loved that it was silent
I'm surprised he didn't mention how many times you smash the derailleurs system during the rides.
I smashed three systems which cost in total over $2'000. You can't really enjoy the ride fully, worrying it may cost you a lot of money and time.
Makes for a much stronger wheel as well, with less hub flange offset.
just curious how rear suspension performance better with light weight on rear wheel? the weight on rear wheel doesn't fall on the rear suspension tho.
The thing with MTB is all unique parts have advantage and disadvantage, so basically you can waste your money in different ways 😩😭
nah, it's not just a MTB thing ☺️ But it means how lucky we are, in cycling, to have so many absurd (or not) ways to get lighter on money 🤪
😂
Road bikes are even worse. Proprietary bottle cages, proprietary seat posts, integrated stem-handlebar-control units that only work with the manufacturer's frame… Though I assume TT bikes are even worse than road bikes.
Ride single speeds, waste no money at all!
@@SnakebitSTI The idea that bicycles should be standardised between brands confuses me. I work in the bike industry and think we're exceptionally lucky that so many parts are cross-compatible. Try that with a car or motorcycle and you're going to need a milling machine, lathe, drill press, and tig or mig welder.
Worth mentioning, from a touring bike perspective, the Pinion's even spacing between gears makes it easy to keep an even pedaling cadence over rolling terrain. Also with no derailleur protruding, and no oil covered chain, it's easier to load bike into cars, buses, hotel rooms etc.
@enriqueamaya3883 Where is he? If he's in Heaven, it's a little hard to follow because I'm on earth. Explain.
You briefly mentioned it but yep, these are best suited for ultra endurance cyclists that do thousands of miles on crazy terrain. Ryan Van Duzer is a big belt drive fan.
I want to build a gravel bike with this
Just spent a week riding with RVD and watching him billy goat up the hills on that Pinion drivetrain is pretty wild. He's unstoppable on the climbs!
or if you dont have time or money to replace and clean parts. my Gates belt lasted 10 years on my daily and almost got no love at all.
@@BodieMoto Bikepacking one!
@@andreas4687most mtb bois arent using a bike for 10 years anyway
Hey Seth, i‘m doing an internship as an engineer at Pinion. It is truly a fascinating company with a lot of innovations yet to come. Especially with ebikes or smart shifting solutions there will be some huge impacts on the bike industry in the future!
Hey Juli, I have no engineering background but I'm trying to build a trigger style trigger for the pinion from the ground up! If you know about pinion working on something like this I think it would be fun to collaborate.
Hey maybe you could design a transmission lock for the gearbox. It would help with security.
For about a month I have been riding a Rohloff speedhub in my commuter- and travel-bike and I must say, I love it! Sure some of the lower gears are a little bit noisy but you get used to it very quickly. For me the instantaneous shifts, low maintanance and durability are way more important than a silent drivetrain.
Rohloff has been getting a lot of love in the comments, and I haven't tried one in close to a decade. I'd be interested in checking a newer one out!
You are comparing apples and oranges. The Rohloff hub is 98% efficient (it is the most efficient internally geared hub). Also, it lives in your wheel and not your bottom bracket. Frankly Rohloff hubs are not for mountain bikes.
But, also, this pinion box is a POS. I don't know why seth is shilling it other than greed. These things are really inefficient. 9 meshed gears plus windage losses because of the oil bath inside it.
Where they may shine is cross country where conditions can be horrific. Pedaling through mud in a heavy downpour and other bad environments and where reliability is really, really important. But the Rohloff is already the king of this application. Where pinion really is bad is service. Just try getting it serviced in some small town in the middle of the back country in Mexico or something. You could be off the road for weeks waiting for replacement parts.
I disagree... I love my Rohloff MTB and it works well! Been running it for 2.5 years now
I have a Rohloff hub on a surly pugsley. I love that thing just from how different it is compared to my other bikes.
After destroying 2 Alfine 11's in 1 year, I went Rolhoff. 2 years later, I'm still riding my obese recumbent tadpool with a BIG grin, and the second oil change coming up.
Also one of my favorite features of the pinion gearbox is the ability at the bottom of a hill to switch it to its first gear and instantly get up the hell without having to move around first and change gears on the go. Especially useful in traffic when you stop at a red light at the beginning of or in the middle of an uphill climb!
Well said
Also useful when mountain biking and failing to drop enough gears and having to put a foot down. Being able to drop into 1st and start pedaling rather than having to hike-a-bike to a flat spot is really nice for those of us who suck at mountain biking.
But that's not how you go up a hill unless you're on an ebike. You start out quick, but gradually slow down when going up the slope. You *want* to shift on the go, under load, to keep your cadence constant.
Just shift down before a climb if that's a concern? Well tuned derailleurs shift quickly anyway
Belt drive with an Onyx hub on a nice fall morning would be epic!! Just the tires rolling and your heart beating through your chest on the climbs. Amazing.
Great to see Pinion mentioned on this channel! :) I don't maintain my bikes. I suck at doing that, that is the main reason I ride Pinion since 2012. Currently on my 4th Pinion bike (all Nicolai's) this one with a C 1.12 box. (612% range out of my head.) 1.18 is available, same range, smoother ratio. It is indeed 0 maintenance also in bad bad winter weather. (Rain, snow, mud, salty roads, etc, I don't have a car, so I always commute on this as well.) Just inject fresh oil once a year, or roughly once a year. I once did no oil change for 2 years, because it is "maintenance", but no problems. :) The grip shift they use is now quite outdated, later this year they will release the electronic shifter for the general public.
For my riding style it has very little drawbacks. If I have to mention 2: You indeed loose a percentage of the power that is put into it, especially on the higher gears. (I would say 5% average compared to a perfectly new and fresh chain+cassette setup.) I never was able to feel that loss on a full suspension bike, but now that I ride a hardtail, I start to notice it a tiny bit when I put over 330 watts in it, but that is seldom. (But we are nowhere near early Nexus hub levels of loss, or the spongy feeling that gives.) A second issue: in a 12 speed box there is 1 point where you can't shift under load, I think somewhere between 8 and 9 in gears. I have that habit of "clutching" during my shift because of this. I never know when that gear is going to come along. That manual clutching I do now, (0,5 sec off the power) will be done by the electronic shifter in the newer, upcoming box. (probably in a matter of milliseconds, and you can stay on the power.) I don't care about the weight, but the system is in total about 700 grams heavier than XX1. It is heavy, but the weight is in the right place, with very little unsprung mass, a plus for a fully. All in all, very reliable. I ride about 6000km a year without issues, and without maintenance. Yes pricey, but worth it, and I don't own a car, so that money has to be wasted somewhere. :D Oh one last thing: the silence of this drive, especially with belt is something else, it is swooshy, but never grindy so to speak. :)
Great bike. I kind of like the loud coasting freewheel noise while encountering people walking. They hear it!
I got a Priority 600 with pinion c1.12, hydro disks, belt drive, and dyno hub. Some of the components are pretty cheap but it's been completely reliable, which is what I was going for on a commuter bike. It lives outside through all seasons. I do definitely feel the friction a bit but it's worth it for casually getting around. The gear range is insane
Love my 600 as well. The components that are "cheap" aren't bad by any means. They're just not luxury. They chose totally competent but affordable parts for everything they could to be able to afford Pinion at $2500.
@@aboutthearthur i totally agree. i'll upgrade over time as things wear out. my lights recently stopped working so i'll move to some better ones (or a better dynohub if that's what failed... i haven't checked yet). they made really smart choices to hit the price point, and i'm really grateful that they made it possible to afford
I recently bought a Zerode Taniwha a few months back and i absolutely love it. Effectively zero maintenance and super reliable. Efficiency is hardly noticeable. Best thing i’ve ever bought and i could never go back to a conventional drive chain, especially since conditions here in the UK are regularly wet and gritty, wearing out chains and derailleurs super quickly. It is just so much better 😂😂
I'm surprised he didn't mention how many times you smash the derailleurs system during the rides.
I smashed three systems which cost in total over $2'000. You can't really enjoy the ride fully, worrying it may cost you a lot of money and time.
Completely agree! It's a game-changer. Zero maintenance - omg, it's a blessing. So much time is spent on cleaning, putting oil on a chain, and changing the chain. All that mess is gone!
These two systems can't compete. Pinion wins in every aspect. There is no debate!
Do you people know of any other brands besides Zerode who are running the Pinion on trail bikes, enduro bikes? Carbon or alloy frames, either? Being in the USA, the shipping from NZ is wildly expensive.
@@exothermal.sprocketCheck out priority bike 600 HXT hard tail. Half the prize compare to Zerode.
@@alpascua3348 Yes, I've known about that model for a little while now. Quite interested in it. It's not to the same purpose and use case as the full suspension Zerode but from where I sit, probably covers the first 70% of its capability.
Cybro No.5 & No.6 from Cybro Industries in Bassano Del Grappa, Italy also use the Pinion C1.12 with Gates Carbon Drive belts. Both are fantastic to ride. Like everything different they take a little time to adjust to the way they shift. Once you get the hang of it you probably wouldn't go back. Hint, the Gates belts do break, so carry a spare. We broke one on a Cybro No.7 and didn't have a spare - that was the end of that ride for the day on that bike, lesson learnt.
Gear boxes are great for bike packing in remote places with rough terrain. One less thing to worry about.
Maybe, but in the event it does fail, good luck bodging it to get back home.
@@Metal-Possum Bruh. Traditional drivetrains are more prone to failure than internal gear hubs/gearboxes. You've never ridden ultra distance have you?
@@twillyspanksyourcakes Just because an internal gear setup isn't as prone to failure doesn't mean they can't fail. The thing about a derailleur setup is I can bodge it to get myself home if I don't have the necessary tools and spare parts to repair it properly. If I'm really concerned about long distances in remote areas where I'm concerned about failure, I'll just use friction shifters and an 8 speed chain and cassette.
I work as a bike mechanic, I've seen internal geared hubs and belt drives fail quite catastrophically, and there's absolutely no workaround except walking. Customers are also furious when their "durable" setup costs them several times more to repair, especially if it's failed much sooner than the marketing guys would have them believe its good for.
No chance of road side repairs though, but I think it partly depends on where you are riding though. Even the perfect system fails, after it fails my priority would be to get back on the road.
@@arbjful Again. If you're not an ultra distance rider who have not tried this system. Better to not talk about shit you don't know about.
For free riding, when you start going high altitude, this thing is fire. All the times i broke a derailleur by hitting rocks could’ve been avoid with this.
And i often carry by bike on my back, and the weight being directly over my shoulders instead of way far on the rear wheel helps a lot for carrying
Ryan Van Duzer rides all around the world with the gates pinion drive. Seems impressively reliable.
It was designed by two engineers from Porsche transmission
Just a minor technicality, the Pinion does not use planetary gears, rather conventional gears on 2 shafts side-by-side like a manual transmission in a car. In addition, in the 12-speed model, it has two stages, not one as cars do, meaning 4 speeds in the first stage are fed to 3 speeds in the second, multiplying like front and rear derailleurs. A very well-presented, unbiased, and balanced review. Not your typical fanboy stuff, ha ha! Thank you.
PS: A mini planetary gearset is used for shifting only, I believe. It is not part of the powertrain. It's the one you see when you take the round cap off the side where the shifter cables enter.
Thank you for this video, I was waiting for it from you for years 🙂
Being one of those gearbox enthusiasts, I have one thing to add: efficiency is not that bad as it may sound from your vid, difference betweens factory fresh piece and meshed in one is significant. Also that efficiency stays there no matter what, so if you have well maintained, clean deraileur, you can beat gearbox. Once you start clogging it with mud or whatever, conventional system starts taking a nosedive, while gearbox is still as "ineficient" as it was in the begining.
So yeah, enduro, MTBO, commuters, long distance travellers...
You should really try it in a long term, because that is where it shines the best...
✔️ He's right in what ^he said in the first 5 secs of this video, about the big companies who wield major influence over the bicycle component industry. As far back as the 1950s, President Eisenhower warned Americans about 3 big industries that threatened the health and well being of our international society. He warned about:
1). The military industrial complex
2). Big tobacco
3). Big derailleur.
Ike was way ahead of the curve on that last one! 😁
Tbh at least with the ~8-11 gear boxes that are often used on city bikes today, I found they have palpable resistance, especially at low speed. My slightly cheaper bike with derailleuer has less resistance on high and low gears.
Although the bikes in the video are on the extreme end, so idk if thats really comparable.
1:30 - Change the oil once a year? Yeah, right. Changing the oil in "gearboxes" isn't even a thing in the automotive world. I suppose that some people change it from time to time, but for the most part, the oil in a manual transmission and differential housing (AKA: "rearend") is in there for the life of the vehicle (they merely get topped off if they are low, not an oil change), and those gears are under much greater stresses/loads than the gears in a bicycle gearbox will ever see.
Great to see a bike from New Zealand on your channel Seth. I've wanted a Taniwha for ages. Jamie from @NewZealandMountainBiking rides one. For those considering it, it's pronounced, "Tah-nee-far"
Also worth mentioning n Maori mythology, taniwha are large supernatural beings that live in deep pools in rivers, dark caves, or sea. Cool name for a bike
The transmission doesn’t use a planetary gearset, it resembles an automotive manual transmission with straight cut gears, whereas road cars use helical gears. That’s the reason why it’s relatively noisy, but it does make it even more efficient. It will be much more efficient than a gearbox with a planetary gearset.
I have one for commuting, all day, every day, every weather (try salted snow slush with your deraileur, and a couple of freez/thaw cycles). To keep the efficiency advantage of a derraileur you need to do a lot of maintencance.
I picked up a Priority 600X almost 2 years ago now. It has over 1300 maintenance free miles thus far on it. It hauls all my bikepacking gear for me and I love this bike!
I saw dozens of them on RAGBRAI last week. They're everywhere!
The Pinion MGU already makes so much sense for e-MTB's from reliability, to unsprung weight off of the rear wheel (and only adds a few hundred grams over a regular drivetrain). Once they make a gearbox within a few hundred grams of a regular analog-MTB's drivetrain and very efficient, they will soon take over. Not to mention, there would be a massive benefit in terms of pedalling by taking a heavy cassette off of the rear wheel.
the most informative and honest assessment of the gear box comparison i’ve heard…i like the cvt gear box or hub…with no transition between gears…you can set your gearing, within the full range, at any setting…you can also change setting when you are stopped …i would like to see you cover an assessment of these…thanks brother!
Pinion and Rohloff with belt drive are used by lots of bikepackers. Pinion especially is preferred by lots of around the world bikepackers, because of virtually no maintenance need.
Thus far I have ever seen them only on youtube and never ever in the wild used by actual bike-packers.
@@rosomak8244 At Euro Bike 2022 in Frankfurt Germany, I think they were on about 20% of the bikes on display and there were a lot of bikes on display. I have ridden them on several different bikes including the Cybro No.5 and No.6 from Cybro Industries in Italy. Yes they are a little heavier, shifting feel different, but they are unreal. I'm from Australia and they are rare to see however 18 months ago I ran into a rider on the Yack Tracks at Yackandandah, Victoria Australia (which is not exactly in a city) riding with a Pinion - I think he was using a C1.6 or C1.9 and he loved it - also he was quick both up and down some pretty steep hills on the Yack Tracks.
My 11 speed Shimano was $400 its on my commuter bike and has trigger change. It is DEAD silent and never misses a beat. The rattling dirty derailleur cassette dropped the chain at the worst time, oily black hands at the start of a working day even after scrubbing left black finger nail edges.I was all too aware that one chain fail crossing a busy road would be hospital or death. A great advantage is sequential shifting, trigger up 10 times or thumb down using every gear in order simply, Try working out the crazy shifting to do that on a bike with a front derailleur!
I have had this for two and a half years I travel 34km a day to work and back and so far maintenance is a hose down after rain and oil once in two and a half years...
I get my Pinion geared Nicolai next week. Nearly no maintenance, robustness, especially in winter conditions, and the better weight distribution. I didn't have too much time for riding, so I don't want to lose time due to maintenance.
I had a test drive with a Pinion bike a few months ago and loved it.
Amen to that. Myself just got GTB PI two days ago. Loving it. ;)
@@agrmbl nice, congratulations! I will also be an Argonaut, with a GAM PI 👍
I will pick it up on Wednesday at the Factory
@@agrmbl nice, congratulations! I will also be an Argonaut, with a GAM PI 👍
I will pick it up on Wednesday at the Factory
@@Cassie_MTBwerde mir wahrscheinlich dasselbe bike holen... Viel spaß damit
although the mud, makes the belt drive, SUCK.
I could be wrong but by the picture shown of the transmission that doesn't look like a planetary gear. Rather just a driveshaft and countershaft both with gears on it. Still cool stuff though.
I think the biggest reason they aren’t as common is because they need a compatible frame to work with and those same frames are not compatible with traditional bottom brackets either. It’s less about upgrading your drivetrain and more about getting an entirely new bike. I’m sure established bike manufacturers have a harder time adapting to pinion because they don’t want to invest all the money into retooling their frame production to accept the gearbox and selling the bike for $1600 more than it would with a traditional derailleur.
Totally agree with this. I now have two Pinion bikes, but that's only because I wanted specific full-bike upgrades for specific purposes (touring and bikepacking) and made the decision to select a pair of Priority bikes. Since you have to buy the whole thing as a purpose-built package, it's not like I could have "upgraded" to a Pinion setup on the Trek and Fuji I had beforehand.
They aren’t adopted because of 1) inefficiency, 2) cost, 3) compatibility, in that order. Why would I pay more for a bike that is sluggish? I have played around with one, the added drag is very noticiable.
I'm yet to hear the efficiency numbers but I know the old planetary gear hubs had a pretty low efficiency. Around town the old Raleigh's I used to ride daily did a great job. Wondering how much Pinion has been able to improve efficiency? Seems like it would be geared more towards everyday riders rather than race types(except DH?) given the need for maximum efficiency over convenience and ease of maintenance. Also the other potential benefit of a gearbox is a stronger rear wheel as all the dish for a cassette is no longer needed so even spoke tension in addition to instant shifting could be a real boon to the DH set.
I do not find the Pinion sluggish at all!! Definitely better than my Alfine 8 bike. And no chain lube needed.
I mean, they'd do it in no time if they wish. They did for disc brakes which required different designs and considering different fatigue points in both the frame AND the fork vs. rim brake bicycles.
Spent 8 days on a euro trip using a commuter style bike with a gear box and was very impressed with the shifting feel and bulletproof design. Would not hesitate to recommend it
Hi, I own a Zerode taniwha enduro since a few weeks. Yes, the pinion gesrbox has at the beginning some noticeable drag, but it wears in and after a few rides with serious climbing the drag is way lower. I also was skeptical about the grip shift, btw Instinctiv bikes offers a trigger shifter for their pinion bikes, but know I think, after getting used to it, it is the best way to go. Cheers
recently bought a zerode too, best thing ever, could never switch back to a normal drive chain
Is there anything about an early oil change in the owner's manual, to flush out any metallic debris from the meshing of gear sets when they wear together? All manufactured gears in transmissions have machining variances on gear teeth that will bed to other mating gears, and shed microscopic bits of metal initially, and smooth out with a bit of use.
Efficiency is the big issue, yeah. 5%ish efficiency loss might not sound like much, but it adds up over distance. Though the Pinion gearbox is pretty close to a dirty derailleur drive train, and a dirty chain grinds away at the gears while you ride.
I suggest looking into the hubs of Rohloff. They replace your back hub with a gearbox, so you won't need a six bolt frame
Yup. Has most of the same advantages and drawbacks of the pinion system, and can be setup to use either a chain or belt.
Would be terrible on a FS bike though... all that extra unsprung mass...
Thanks for doing this one. I was one of the people that wanted your take on them.
While i already knew that belts and gearboxes made it's entry into MTB scene, i never yet seen a prominent MTB influencer cover it 😁
Also - what you said about people owning it using it out there is so right! It's particulary useful for bike touring wher low maintenence and low failures are really nice to have. 😁
'm surprised he didn't mention how many times you smash the derailleurs system during the rides.
I smashed three systems which cost in total over $2'000. You can't really enjoy the ride fully, worrying it may cost you a lot of money and time.
Completely agree! It's a game-changer. Zero maintenance - omg, it's a blessing. So much time is spent on cleaning, putting oil on a chain, and changing the chain. All that mess is gone!
These two systems can't compete. Pinion wins in every aspect. There is no debate!
I have a Pinion C1.12 on my allrounder city bicycle. I will never buy a bicycle again without a Pinion gearbox.
I can assure you, the efficiency is not a problem. Only a clean and well oiled derailleur is actually more efficient. If that derailleur and the chain gets just a bit dirty it’s worse. If the belt gets dirty, it basically doesn’t care. And i know more people that don’t maintain their chain like they are supposed to, including me. That’s why i have a Pinion + belt.
You definitely feel a bit of efficiency loss. Although it’s probably less than a dirty derailleur (i.e. after 15 minutes on trail).
And it’s supposed to break in after 500km or so, would become much smoother.
This is an interesting point a lot of people have brought up. When a derailleur gets all mucked up and dirty on a long ride, it too loses efficiency while the gearbox remains constant. Depending on the nature of your ride, a gearbox could be equally as efficient and cause you fewer issues.
@@SethsBikeHacks the derailleur system is also less efficient at either end of the cassette due to cross chaining. Add some mud and grit and they would be pretty similar.
Just like a car or motorcycle transmission, they have a wear-in time where the meshing teeth lose their tiny machining variances and smooth out, reducing friction and reducing noise. An oil change would be advisable to remove the tiny flecks of metal probably, and thereafter, good to go.
@@SethsBikeHacks long-term review incoming:
So it’s 8 month later and 3K kilometers, mostly gravel and bikepacking-like tours in Cyprus mountains. Gearbox became buttery smooth long ago, had yet to have any issue at all.
In total I can remember like three times the gear skipping (for a quarter of a turn) probably due to very unlucky shift and very hard pedalling.
No maintenance, no nothing, just wash the bike once in a while. Several times went through clay after the rain, bike got unbelievably dirty, no issues with the belt drive.
Due to change the oil soon (kit is like 20 euro or something), which is a very straightforward operation. Also got spare belt, just to be sure on them extended mountain trips (not expecting current one to break, but new belt is not that expensive and weights nothing).
I’ve got 12-speed version (with 600% range), which means that 1st gear is waaaay to low to move (steepest climbs are like 3rd gear for me), but the 12th is OK for pedalling for up to about 40km/h with my gearing - which is road bike territory.
Al in all - it’s a dream come true. Would surely recommend.
Great to see a balanced review of the Zerode. I’ve been on one for over two years and can’t see myself ever going back.
Your pros and cons were on the money. Nice work - as always. 👍
'm surprised he didn't mention how many times you smash the derailleurs system during the rides.
I smashed three systems which cost in total over $2'000. You can't really enjoy the ride fully, worrying it may cost you a lot of money and time.
Completely agree! It's a game-changer. Zero maintenance - omg, it's a blessing. So much time is spent on cleaning, putting oil on a chain, and changing the chain. All that mess is gone!
These two systems can't compete. Pinion wins in every aspect. There is no debate!
I have a Zerode Taniwha and love the bike. I must commend you on pronouncing Taniwha correctly. Very few people do.😃
I’ve owned 3 internal hubs and now own a Rohloff with a Gates Belt drive for the last 9 years. I love it, I’ve done 3 bike tours and 4 adventure races on it. It’s way more flexible than a Pinion and has other shifter options.
I’d love to see a video on the difference between a bike with and without an O-chain
Belt drive makes much better sense. Harleys, snow mobiles, can ame, Spyder all belt drive. Would be much better than a chain. Also shaft driven, zero maintenance just oil change once a year or 3. Love my shaft drive Honda
If I had the money I would be riding a Rohloff, recently had one in the store that was shipped to Rohloff for a full overhaul, it did over 50000 kilometres so far and still is going strong.
The inspection log had one oil change every year on it for the last eleven years and this was the first time it went back to Rohloff according to the documentation provided.
On the efficiency statistics, regular drive-trains are almost always stated in perfect conditions, so no dirt or wear what so ever. Not really realistic out on the trail where the only time your chain is clean is in the garage after it was just washed. So they are closer together, tho there still is a difference for sure. But one you will only notice if you race I guess.
I got to try a Rohloff about 7 years ago, and am curious how far they have come. I remember it being really compact, and it was on a pretty normal looking bike. That could be another cool thing to look into.
Rohloff Speedhub is great, I have one on my hardtail and I love it.
Not ideal for a full suspension bike though (high unsprung mass).
@@SethsBikeHacks they are just regular gear hubs that fit pretty much every normal bike. They also have the grip shift with two cables but offer electronic shifting with Bosch or Panasonic ebikes.
The hub itself is pretty much the same with only iterative changes over the years.
Still expensive at a thousand bucks, but at least works with normal frames.
Great range of over 520% (more than a 10-51 tooth!) with 14 gears.
There are multiple ones doing 100000 kilometres so longevity really is there too.
But you still have a weight penalty but efficiency is around 4% better than Pinion.
Seth makes his videos perfectly, in college we learned formats for speeches and Seth shows these strategies perfectly
One thing to note of efficiencies, the timing belt actually has nearly the same efficiency as a roller chain, its the gearbox which is the primary cause for the difference in overall efficiency of the system
The consistency of the gearbox would bring the efficiency comparison closer, because derailleur and chain systems are all over the place in their efficiency numbers with a host of non-consistent factors. The average comparison between the two makes this more of an emotional debate than anything anyone would actually worry about. It's like the people who obsess over a few grams difference in weight, when they could lose 5 pounds of body fat to start with.
i got a pinion commuter and the reliability is out of this world. really gives me easy of mind for the early morning shift that starts at 4am.
To be honest, I'm going to get a gearbox for my next bike no matter what. Maybe I just need something new, or maybe I've been successfully brainwashed, but I'm going to go for it!
That was me three years ago... I love my Rohloff MTB... mine is an SVObikes Strato. You will not regret it.
I love the idea of reliability with low maintenance.
Sus out Kavenz bikes, they’ve got a gearbox model on the way
Do it! That's why I bought a Priority 600X. I like bikepacking, and just wanted to try a different drivetrain. Turns out, I really like the Pinion gearbox and belt drive. No major complaints. I'm not totally giving up on derailleurs either. Different bikes for different situations!
My commuter bike has a belt drive with a Shimano Alfine hub and I love it for that. I've heard of people using that kind of setup for mountain biking, but I haven't seen any in person before.
What is the name?
@@oiyile1971 The name of what?
@@sethmoyer your bike
@@oiyile1971Sorry I missed your previous comment for so long! I have a Brilliant L-train with the 8-speed hub and disc brakes. Recently they stopped selling it with the 8-speed though :(
@@sethmoyer all good and thank you!
They also argue that by moving the mass of the cluster off the rear wheel and into, the centre allows improved suspension design.
The pinion gearbox motor + electronic shifting looks exciting!
I have heard the argument, but I can empirically tell you is that my FS bike with a Rohloff rear has really good suspension performance.
Depending on gear selected with today's derailleur systems, the effective chain pull angles on rear suspension is chaining between pro-squat and anti-squat geometry. With a belt drive, it never changes no matter the gear.
Seth I’m so glad your free of any specific bike brand!!!! Keep this type of content coming!
Literally two days ago got Pinion hardtail. So far it’s the best bike investment I’ve made.
I have a pinion gearbox on my Priority 600x. I use it for all types of riding and really enjoy it. I've put somewhere between 500-800 miles on it since owning it with no issues so far. I ride it on trails, city commuting and just a quick ride around the neighborhood. I find myself riding longer because I enjoy it more than my cassette driven bike.
Who's this for? How about multiple world championships downhill winner Gregg Minnaar he was the first to use it and it was manufactured by Honda of all companies 🤔
I drive now for 2 months with a Pinion gearbox and never want anything else. This works super well and wear is no longer an issue.
You also notice how positive the weight savings on the rear wheel for the function of the suspension is.
And btw: compares times the weight of a Pinion transmission with a new SRAM group ...
who would have thought that canyons would have grip shifters 😂
Pinion has released electronic trigger shifters of late that goes away from grip/twist shift.
I’ve had a belt bike for a couple years now, not only is mine an internal gearbox, but it also has no steps on the shifter, feels really buttery lol
I’m excited for the smart shift version to get on bikes. Not down with the grip shift. Also you didn’t talk about the fact that you can change hear with out pedaling. I think the mgu will be a game changer for e-bikes
The problem is that you can change gear without pedaling, but you can't change gear while pedaling 😂😂
@@doctajuice I may be wrong but I believe with the electronic shift version of the gearbox you can shift while pedaling. What it does is it wont shift until you are at the top of your stroke and thus the gearbox is under no load.
@@Willard_guy yeah also I'm kinda out of the loop with it you might be able to shift while pedaling nowadays but I'm not sure
It's not a planetary gearbox, but a cassette-style manual sequential gearbox, as found in many racing motorcycles.
I asked a couple of local bike shops what they thought of these, both said they are sweet, fairly easy to install, incredible to use. But, they both agreed, if and when they do go wrong, they are very difficult to repair. Not impossible, but it's going to be expensive because they take a lot of time.
Maybe that's their lack of experience with them, if we all had them, they'd be far easier, as there'd be a lot of information on how to do it.
But the entry fee here in the UK is around £2,500 plus fitting and setup.
Should you get a great gearbox, it should last decades with only an oil change every year and new cables as and when.
Of course, should get a lemon...
But don't Dutch bikes have them? Or at least a lot more of them?
Glad you got to try that bike and to comment on the pinion gear box! I’ve been riding the Priority 600 for several years now and I absolutely love it. I think it’s perfectly suited for touring and commuting, but I’m not sure about how well it would work on a mountain bike. I know the same company makes the Priority 600 X which Ryan Van Duzer helped design to be their gear box hardtail. It looks pretty sweet but is well out of my price range. The Priority 600 really is my favorite bike but it’s expensive enough that I would prefer to beat up a much cheaper bike out on the trail.
Every single vid from Seth is entertaining or informative. This gearbox looks awesome, but with that grip shifter, don’t you find yourself having to adjust your grip with every shift? 🤔
As far as I understand it the gripshift is said to be neccesary as the gearshifting mechanism need strong pull in each direction in order to change gear. It would be cool if they could engineer around this problem, perhaps they will in the future.
@@Skawagonyou should be able to engineer a trigger shifter to do that, or go electronic.
@@SimonBauer7I've seen the is at least one out there, but it's spring based for the second cable. Haven't tried it, but seems it means you do 2x the work to up shift so it can down shift for you.
Yes, I sometimes find this annoying, but only under very specific circumstances. A company called Cinq makes a trigger shifter (left and right paddle) for Pinion (C-line) It is too expensive for me. The upcoming electronic shifter (and proprietary updated Pinion box) will finally get rid of the twister. :)
@@SimonBauer7 I suppose isom sort of trigger shifter will be done eventually. As fot the wireless - as Seth mentioned the gerabox is well suted to the most extreme conditions - Like a guy pedaling over Gobi desert. In those conditons I guess the simple soliution wins over and is a one thing less to take care of. With that being said, I still belive it could go a long way to spread the apeal od gearbox drivetrain.
I'm leasing a trekking bike by Gudereit since August of 2023 (wanted some gravel first) with such a C1.12 and it's great for commuting, we only have some hills here (however a couple of mountains just 30 miles south) and I mostly use gears 4-10, 11 and 12 only if I'm really fast/downhill.
My dad said one of his work colleagues got a similar trekking bike since the early 2010s (so when Pinion was brand new) and it still runs fine.
I would like to add some things: the C1.12 and the other C-Series have magnesium cases while the P-Series use heavier aluminium; the C1.12 has a total transmission range of 600% and every step is +/-50% (it's a little odd in the beginning, it often rapidly shift up my derailleurs when accelerating, two/three gears at once, here you rather shift up single steps and rather don't skip gears), so you're shifting linear, the P1.18 even got 636% in 18 steps so each shift is +/-35.3%.
There's also another German bicycle transmission: The Rohloff Speedhub 500/14, this is around since 1998 and also has its niche (but they achieved 400k built/sold in 2023), cost you over a thousand bucks and is a heavy unsprung weight, but it's extremely reliable, the record holder has reached 384.400 kilometres in 2019 - the distance from earth to moon.
As the name suggests is has 14 steps and a range of a little over 500%.
IMHO it's worth mentioning that both of these usually have grip shifters with two wires and that's because the indexing isn't in done by the shifter like on derailleurs or other hubs but the gearbox itself and the Pinion simply doesn't shift, if you're too hard on the pedals (you can't turn the grip), it's a nice overload protection and thanks to muscle memory you'll automatically relief the pressure on the pedals when attempting to shift in a few weeks.
Maybe I'll give mine some winter tires for upcoming winter season (or my cheapo Pegasus it's literally my spare bike now, I use it to get to the main station and lock it on there (and go by train without the bike) or if I go drinking/partying, it wouldn't bother me too much if that would get stolen), it's also perfect for that due to its encapsulation.
I offered to let you test my Zerode weeks back but heard nothing. Glad to see you put out a video on them.
I have a Pinion 1.18 and love it. Maintenance is an hour each year, change the oil and check the shifting cables. Fast-quick multi-gear changes at a time. If I forget to shift at a stoplight- no problem- just shift to the one you want. If you hear a squeak (no grinding or slapping ever) rinse off the carbon belt drive and continue on. I'm not breaking chains, bending derailleurs, cleaning and greasing chains, adjusting cables, yada-yada. I ride, not fix my bike. I agree it's not the right option for racing. I'm a touring nerd, so I want to be able to ride for days on end and never worry about the drivetrain. Expensive yes- but if you haven't tried it, don't knock it. The weight-to-convenience ratio should make the Pinion an option to consider.
Looks like something from the future haha
Personally, I'm sold on gearbox transmissions. Lower maintenance, less likelihood of breaking a derailleur, or bending a derailleur hanger, plus a wider range of gears. What's not to like?
I recently had a Rohloff 14-speed transmission installed for a 2nd bike. This time my trusty Specialized S-Works Turbo Levo received a Rohloff upgrade. Gotta say it is sweet. With a wider range of gears, I can now climb pretty much everywhere, I am loving it. I'm now enjoying the uphill flow every time I ride. This thing just performs perfectly.
If you are considering a gearbox, just do it.
These belong on e-bikes. You can ditch the grip shifting for electric shifting, and the drag/weight won’t matter.
They make exactly this (Pinion E1.12), since this year.
You could likely even ditch manual shifting with the autoshift feature on shimano di2 on an ebike. Fully automatic transmission lol.
gearboxes belong on bikes you actually want to ride in rough terrain without smashing them to bits just while riding, so they definitely belong on mtbs
A Pinion MTB is my great white whale...
You forgot to mention the unsprung weight that's less when using a gearbox.
Also a conventional drivetrain is more efficiënt, but only when it's clean. So during a muddy ride that can go south pretty fast.
There are Pinion bikes with conventional gear levers (Instinctiv bike) but the two cable's remain.
I've tried Shimano's internal geared hub thing while working at a bike shop. It was annoying to service but maybe that's just because I was more used to derailleurs. Thought it wasn't particularly something I'd get but was a fraction of the pinion price so I'd bet my thoughts would change if I tried the pinion.
If you want low maintenance for commuting, you can't go wrong with a Nexus 8. Costs about 1/8th of a Rolhoff. But I wouldn't advertise them for heavy duty.
Couple of years back I had an NuVinici N380 Continuously Variable hub installed on my Catrike Expedition recumbent trike. I love the hell out of it, it's nice not having any gears or in between gear issues. Instead of a derailleur I use a chain tensioner, Origin 8.
Those belts last forever ten times longer than a bike chain.
A twist shift. Yikes
I come from New Zealand where Zerode is based and several of my friends are on their ambsidor team. also it pronounced Tanifa as opposed to Taniwa (f sound in place of the w).
Lets help the end to big derraliur
hope you decide to buy a Zerode (the Tanwha Mulet is amazing)
I'm surprised that you didn't mention hub gears, where the gearbox is shoved in the rear hub. They're somewhat common on commuter bikes where I live, where the (unmentioned) advantage of shifting whilst stationary is quite useful
they add unsprung weight to the rear wheel, which impacts the effectiveness of th rear suspension, I'm sure I heard that mentioned in the video. I'd love hub gearing with a belt for my middrive commuter/urban ebike which currently is a Shimano 9-speed with a Shimano middrive
A ride buddy has a Pinion, works very nicely. But as with everything there are upsides (range, less day to day maintenance, cleaner) and downsides (limited choice of frames, weight, cost new).
It has to use a grip shift as the gearbox has to be positively shifted both ways although an electronic shift is coming which will fix that.
in 10 years we will be looking back on bikes of today like they are ancient
Not really. Geometry has already peaked. Not everyone wants gearboxes or even full suspensions.
Been riding with a gearbox and belt for almost 2 years now and NEVER going back to derailleurs!
I was always astounded with perfectly fine cassettes being thrown away because my chain needed replacement ‘and so did my cassette’ to match the new chain. Bumped my derailleur so many times, went through hanger after hanger, got dirty and spent so much time being frustrated by my drivetrain… my Pinion gearbox fixed all of that.
Anyone reading this who wants to travel by bike - get a gearbox bike!
The gripshift is a big no thanks for me personally
I guess it can be possible without grip shift. Not sure tho. But it's still too expensive
@@BRNOOB_ A lot to like about the idea... Price isn't one of those lol
I'm rocking an IGH (shimano alfine 8) with a mid drive motor, and I LOVE it, and that's basically the same thing. I do run it mostly as a commuter though.
I love my retrofitted Rolhoff hub gearbox (on an orange 66 freeride bike).
I've done about 15000km offroad on it over about 20 years, I wash the bike about every year, I've never changed the oil, and I oil the chain every month or two. Ive never changed a chain or anything on the drive train. (Rolhoff chain is way stronger than flimsy shifty ones). Its been the best thing about that bike (my old fave bike).
Used to have one on the mountian tandem as well but the cable friction was too high over that length so had to switch back to deraillleur, but the tandem is the perfect application for a hub, and every time I ride it I wish it could have worked.
Not exactly what he has, but as someone with 2 14spd Rohloff Speedhubs (Internal gear HUB in the rear where the cassette would be in a traditional setup) I can tell you they are extremely reliable. I had by first problems with them after 9 years of MTB use across about 6000 miles and no maintenance except oil changes. The first one had the chain sprocket break and it was 25 dollar fix I did in 15 minutes. The 2nd one had the shift cables fray and one of the strands got bunched up on the shifter making it so I could only shift between 2 gears, this was a 40 dollar 1 hour fix. I also ride year around in all conditions including snowy/icy conditions with salt on the road/paved trails.
EDIT: one of the bonuses of a Rohloff Hub over Pinion is efficiency. Rohloff Hubs are about 92-95% efficient. Derailleurs when clean and new are 95-97% efficient, however this deteriorates over time as they get dirty and worn. You can lose as much as 8% efficiency on derailleur if its filthy and rubbing and not indexed correctly. This never happens with a Rohloff. I do have to admit, it does add an extra pound to the rear wheel which will effect how rear suspension handles though.
However if you combine Pinion or Rohloff with an electric motor, electronic shifting, ABS, etc then it ALL MAKES SENSE!
Recumbent trike riders have been using these for years. They want more gears then regular bikes but we have more issues when we electrify trikes. The thing about Pinion is that its harder to install, you have to start modifying the boom, which is actually on the front instead of in the middle of the bike. Rohloff and Schlumpf are more common options. Pinion is the newer player here but it has a better warranty and is quieter. Its like you said, you need that 6 bolt BB. Pinion is the hardest to install. Having a 18 gear Pinion MGU wont solve all the issues, as it produces redundant gears when paired with internally geared hubs, so its often better to get a 6 speed Pinion and a hub at the back. At least in the case of a trike, you will still have a chain as well
Along with the host of really significant other advantages mentioned in the comments.idlike to add that the gearbox beds in and gets more efficient. Also as soon as your chainline is angled significantly or there is a bit of mud. The Zerode Taniwha at least matches the efficiency.
I bought mine for enduro style riding. But it so often outperformed in crosscountryish or bike packing that its my go to bike for nearly everything.
And the price of the zerode bike is less than a santa cruz or pivot at similar spec.
Its been such a revelation and improvement to my riding experience I'm amazed everyone isnt buying them.
But yes i dont crosscountry race.
Great video. They now have and electronic shifting system that ditches the grip shift. I’m gonna eventually get a bike with one of these. Chains etc are a PITA
May i mention that the Pinion C-line's main competitor, the Effigear Mimic, solves, if not makes steps towards improving 3 of those issues, price, weight and shifter compatibility. Its also much smaller.
C-line weight: 2.1kg
Mimic weight: 900g-2kg
C-line price: €1,400
Mimic price: €1,000
C-line shifter: dual cable twist shifter or Cinq dual cable trigger shifter
Mimic shifter: any Sram Eagle shifter
First learned of these through Bicycle Touring Pro on his CoMotion Cycles touring bike; great alternative to a Rohloff for those riding thousands of miles without maintenance. CoMotion even has tandems with the Pinion. After watching this it makes perfect sense that Pinion just released an ebike version of this :)
Darren sure has a nice touring setup with that 650b Co-Motion Pinion. I miss his content.
That was a great entertaining and informative video Seth. Loved the variety of trails you rode and the also the different scenes you chose to explain your different points about it. Love the bike.
Love the Taniwha. Such a great MTB. Pinion Gearbox is the way to go. Riders don’t know what they are missing.
I have owned a Pionion equipped bike, rode it 2016 season. The frame was not great (a Musing from GER), but I loved the Pinion, except for parts being hard to come by. For XC or trail riding, it wasn't a great feel. For anything descending oriented, it was fantastic. I will 100% own another one. When I replace my Nicolai G1, I will probably do so with a gearbox equipped Nicolai. If there was more parts availability and options, I believe a sizable portion of gravity focused riders would be on one. Perfect for 140-200mm bikes
Onyx hub with a belt driven Pinion gearbox is my dream commuter. No sound, just gliding through the city. 💆
Got to ride a Gates Carbon drive train at Outerbike and was really impressed. Admittedly the twist shift feels “old school” but reliability is key!
Now they have SmartShift option so you don't have to have gripshift any more.
I got a Zerode Taniwha this year with 9spd 600% ratio smartshift - bullet-proof and so quiet on the downhill - no chainslap or grindy gears from not cleaning the chain.
You lost me at grip shift. I rode grip shift when i couldn't afford better in the 90s, and was so happy when i could finally afford a real shifter. Grip shift is hell on bumpy trails or big hits. Enduro? bumps and grip shift? hateful... Grip shift was the worst thing i ever wasted money on. lmk when there's an option that doesn't suck. I have a parts bin that goes back to the early 90s, but there's no grip shift there. The ONLY time in the last 30 years I threw away working parts was when i rid myself of the abomination that was grip shift.
Dude finally, I've been waiting for years to hear your views on gearboxes! I have a belt drive commuter with a Shimano alfine11 and absolutely became a belt convert. Still ride my derailleur MTB sometimes but it feels so weird now. I've ridden the commuter on some MTB trails and it handled it like a champ, thin tires were terrifying but worked out ok. So I know belly+huh gear is fine on MTB but so annoyed they're so expensive. Big derailleur indeed!
My MTB badly needs a drive train overhaul, chain is stretched etc but really can't see myself spending on it, I want a priority 600x to replace both bikes!
The transmission losses are higher than for DR bikes, but if you are not doing XC, gravel or road racing then a gearbox bike makes a lot of sense. Belt drives require a splitable rear triangle.
It also helps suspension performance as the belt tension is set without the need for constant derailleur tension
Shimano actually does make a gearbox drivetrain - Alfine, which is featured on the Priority Apollo.
The best thing is that Pinion released their own E-Bike motor with integrated gearbox. That makes the most sense, since the gearbox drag is going to be negligible on an E-Bike. Right now I'm riding a Turbo Levo and I can't wait to get my hands on Pinion E-Bike.