Why is Eagle Transmission such a big freaking deal?
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- Опубликовано: 24 июл 2023
- Sram introduced their new Transmission drivetrain earlier this year, and I finally have it installed on one of my bikes. In this video I'll explain why everyone is making such a big deal out of it, and what this new system possibly means for your next mountain bike. I'll try cover what people who like it, and people who don't like it say.
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I remember asking "why are they giving this away to the bike industry? What's in it for them?" Back when they gave the bike industry the UDH. Fast forward to this past March and Voila, the reason is here.
Even though they did it for the transmission, a universal derailleur standard is a damn good idea.
They get to sell the hangers. Still enough reason even without transmission.
I'm sure Shimano asked the same thing.
@oliverdurgen5953 be a bigger Oliver and acknowledge that someone may have more foresight than you. Questioning Sram's motivations was an entirely logical response.
There was a patent for a SRAM direct mount derailleur one year (2018) before UDH got announced - google - Patent Patrol: Direct thru-axle mounted, hydraulically damped SRAM rear derailleurs - so everyone in the industry knew what UDH was for, and where SRAM were going with it, when it got anounced in 2019
Here I am checking out a video about another piece of gear that the bike industry has priced waaaay beyond my means.
Not only that. Oftentimes, these high price items also have high price maintenance/installation. E.g. I thought I was set when I moved on to air forks, but then I realized I also needed to pay to service the forks once or twice a year (that cost the same as installing the fork)
@@KarlenBell lower leg service is pretty easy on any fork. There are many tutorials here on youtube for any type of fork. If you're doing maintenance on your bike anyways, you should easily be able to do a lower leg service. And then send it in every few years for an overhaul / big service
i just went back to friction shifters so i’m here looking at a piece of gear priced beyond my means that i’m not even interested in. i do like the mounting method-i hope that spreads
My biggest gripe is that you have to go all in on every component. I get that times change, but it's hard not to be cynical about Sram with these types of things. The cassettes are comically expensive.
As soon as he mentioned a battery was needed for it I told myself I don't need it or the battery.
SRAM pulling such a elaborate strategy 7 years prior to their brand new technology being announced is insanly intelligent marketing ! I'm impressed 🤯
Or slow development to manufacturing
Mainly, its really good for consumers. Things being compatible cuts down our cost and increases options
It's still good for consumer if they use the same back design for many bikes
@@jamesmcpherson3924 Even though development would have took this much time (which is very likely), they still managed to implement UDH in the bike industry BECAUSE they were sure that they could benefit from it afterwards !
Pretty smart if you ask me
i literally laughed out loud when the penny dropped and I realized what they did. Freaking brilliant!
Seth, you've transitioned into proper bike journalism so well! This is top notch content. Feels really unbiased, objective and relatable. Loads of detail and information, without getting too tech or confusing. Just great! Keep it up! Cheers 🤜🤛
💯💯
I agree, but Seth please don't shy away from getting too techy with us we came looking for the beta. You are relatable so you will help us all learn what we need to know
What I'm really hoping to see is a mechanically actuated direct mount derailleur. This likely wouldn't shift under load, but it would be lighter, cheaper, and have the durability of direct mount. I hope SOMEONE does this if Sram doesn't.
Please seed this idea into Box Components heads - you seem to have good connections with them
same. we know that sram has the capability to do so. they may be scared it performs at par with their electronics counterpart that it may lower their sale
Basta si Brent Kay bayot
This has been patented by SRAM so no-one else will be able to release a compatible product. This is SRAM taking one of the last remaining "standards" on a bike and making it proprietary so that you are locked into using their derailleur for the life of the frame.
@@Kevin_Aus SRAM licenses UDH to manufacturers, just like Shimano licenses MicroSpline etc.
You know it's expensive when even Seth doesn't mention the total price.
GX is ~$1099 at most retailers, if folks are curious. So yeah, not cheap but not wildly expensive either. A new mechanical XT setup runs around 700-800.
@@DisastroSlick Shimano XT groupset 600-700 dollar with breaks
@@DisastroSlick I'd call it stupid expensive. For many, that's more than the cost of their bike. Fortunately for those not swimming in disposable cash, Microshift is somewhat affordable, and much better imho.
@@DisastroSlick Forgot to include the torque wrench cost that most folks will also need to absorb if they try to soar with the Eagle...
@@sapinva If your bike is less than $1000 then you probably shouldn't be considering putting SRAM Eagle on it at all
Well played, SRAM. Well played! And thank you for bringing some standardization to the cycling industry!! This 17 year bike shop owner thanks you!!
Here's nothing really standardized except the hanger. I'm afraid unless they make their mounting system etc. available just as free or for a very reasonable license fee, and allow some leeway in the implementation of other solutions with the same goals by other brands regarding the protection of their patents, there'll be a lot more incompatibilities coming from this.
We'll have to wait and see, as always. But I highly doubt they did you any kind of favor as a mechanic.
In 1990 I bought a Rock Hopper and rode the snot out of it until 1998. Lost my way for a few years and just now bought an Ozark Trail Ridge medium. I'm 6', but feel good on the medium. Planning on dropper post and better brakes. Looking forward to being 55 going on 15. Seth, thanks for providing the spark to get out again. Tech is great.........feeling the breeze in your face on a trail....priceless.
You are the best story teller, Seth. We're lucky you happen to tell mountain bikey stories.
Bravo, Seth!
This is possibly the best review - info - tech talk of Transmission. You go into more detail and discuss how it affects riders. You talk about spec and use in a way that makes sense. Thanks for going in depth like this and sacraficing your old gear on those haneous shifting grinding examples. Hope you didn't break anything.
Mate,.thank you. Not just for this awesome tutorial but all your content. I'm re-entering the industry after being away for 15 years and there's so much to weed through when it comes to tech. Your breakdowns make it so easy for me to get back up to speed (pardon..) so I can then relate more professionally with my customers. Thanks again. From Australia.
Aussie Aussie Aussie!!
Awesome video, not only the tech content narrative, metaphors and logic are pristine, you really elevated the game for all bike channels this time ! Keep on producing ! Thanks a lot 🎉🎉🎉
Well put! I couldn't agree more. I would even add humor to your list of accolades.
Seriously, wouldn't it be great if Seth had a history channel?
I'd watch if he just made eggs every video
If the torque tolerences on the thru axle are critical to performance, what do you do if you get a flat and have to remove/reinstall the thru axle?
exactly, if the damage is too much, you've now ruined your axle which is more expensive than a replacement hanger.
The axle torque spec really isn’t that big of a deal as compared to going by spec to install derailleur. I might not shift perfect with wacky axle torque but it’ll still shift better than every other system…
go by feel and then by torque spec when you’re home/get to a shop
@@MillerRL96 I'm not sure what this means...are you saying that a mis-torqued Eagle system shfits better than standard SRAM or Shimano wireless? If that's the case, why is there even a torque spec on the thru axle? What does Seth mean when he says that the torque needs to be precise for Eagle to work well?
@@kalebpeterson9375 of course this is what you'd do, but Seth said the system is very sensitive to torque values. How will the bike perform if you can't get the proper torque after you change a flat?
That was a good job of pointing out the major changes, benefits and behaviour of the system. Everything has both compromises and benefits. You just have to choose what's important to you. I look forward to getting some version of this down the road. Have a great day and go ride.
As a new and non-technical member of your audience, I can tell you this was very well articulated. I enjoy your content and the simplistic layout of it.
Really. That's true.😊
I really love what this drivetrain brings. Never having to adjust the derailleur alignment and shifting under load is a dream. The initial cost is really high, as expected for new tech. It seemed worth it though and I was SO close to buying it.. until I saw the price of the consumables. There's no way I'm paying those prices for the chains and cassettes every year, maybe twice a year for the chains. That's a crazy subscription price! Definitely looking forward to seeing what comes next with direct mount derailleurs. Hopefully a more realistic running cost.
But a $600 cassette is a bargain mate
@@janeblogs324 I know right? Be interesting to see what their lifespan is. Would one outlast the four XT cassettes you could have for the same money, even if you shifted on those cassettes like an angry gorilla.
TBF, if you check out zerofrictioncycling, the old SRAM Eagle X01/ XX1 chains have big improvements on the lifespan compared to other chains. 300€ for the new GX - cassette is still too much imo since that was the price for the old XX1 casette.
@@5ch4cht3l7 and that is mostly why I wont get this. XX1 ? I would buy it fro that price. I have a 5000mile XX1 cassette right now on the bike and I dont think it will give up soon.
However derailleurs suck. They are to exposed so I will just take the frame for the la bikes derailleur. + The suspesion will be better and the bike will be way more silent.
Are the consumables more expensive than those of motorbikes? Probably
On another note, I've just fitted XPLR AXS to my road/gravel bike and the shifting is just brilliant. Easily the best shifting setup I've ever used (and I have various 11/12/Di2 setups). Sram are nailing it at the moment.
I bought a new bike in May with an XO Transmission and it has been flawless. It's very quiet and has held up to all the bike parks so far. I only dumped it on the derailleur once at the park and had no issues, just like all the videos show. I charged the derailleur battery once in two months also. There's no issue with taking the wheel off and retighten the axel or anything finicky like some comments are worried about. Once the price comes down and more people use it, I can't see anyone disliking it.
Excellent video. Better explanation than any of the other videos I've seen on Sram Transmission thus far. Thanks!
Now I feel old. I do remember bikes not having replaceable hangers, I even owned an aluminium frame with a fixed hanger. I guess work hardening didn't mean anything to them.
This looks like a brilliant idea from SRAM, once it filters down to the more affordable groupsets it'll probably start a revolution. Let's hope that Shimano patent for an internal gearbox turns out to be workable.
hi seth, just wanted to say your videos have gotten me into mountian biking and I love. Thanks so much for the great videos.
Great job. Clear explanation and a very fair treatment of the subject, withholding nothing. Positives, negatives, trade-offs, what is gained, what could be lost. I'll be watching for more.
Berm Peak/Seths bike hacks has been saved, these are the kinds of quality videos that we like to see 👏.
Love watching a video on the most advanced drive train when I ride a 40 year old road bike with shifting levers on the frame. Which do have the advantage of being able to go from the lowest gear all the way to the highest all at once if you want
Yours will still work in 40 more
downtube shifters are so fun. imo they look way cooler as well
it's a big deal, but not for the reason you think it is. This seems very proprietary. How long before we lose the right to repair and have to bring the bike to a licensed tech to get it fixed like an iPhone screen or connector jack? This has happened in the farming, auto, and cell phone industries, and now it's coming for bicycles, under the guise of "this is the only way to innovate and for the user's safety and security". This drivetrain already can only be used with the specific chain, crank, chainring, derailleur, cassette, and... bottom bracket? Are enough of the shape and design patented such that other companies cannot make replacement components? It's related to vendor lock in where things can only be obtained expensively from a single source, or expensively switched en mass, if at all. We're already losing the ability to easily repair relatively young bikes (
This!!!! I started a bike shop two years ago after wrenching privately for years. The more bikes I fix the more I am into retro tech that just works and can be fixed on the trails. I really notice the "car-ification" of the bicycle industry. Everything has a new model year nearly every year, you cannot get spare parts for stuff that is not even old yet because they change standards every year and make stuff as incompatible as possible. This is against everything a bicycle should incorporate: freedom, independence and simplicity.
That being said ofc the advantages it brings are real in certain situations for certain people. And the UDH and the long game they played with it was very smart. Nobody would have adopted Transmission otherwise. And the UDH can still be a good thing, if it keeps getting adopted and if other manufacturers can fabricate compatible components
I have these exact same concerns as well.
Never liked sram
I think the UDH was a push in the right direction regardless of SRAM's ulterior motives. I understand the right-to-repair argument. I hate that closed system nonsense. But I don't know how SRAM could make a system like this easy to repair. By necessity, the electronics are extremely compact to ensure the footprint is small enough. It's not like bike techs are going to crack open the case and go at it with their soldering irons.
I work on my own bike as much as possible. I'm pretty good at setting limit screws and indexing the gears so the Eagle T does not appeal that much to me at this time even though I think it's pretty cool. But I can't say I'm concerned about losing right-to-repair privileges.
And just think about it. If SRAM starts trying to bilk customers by forcing them into controlled service and repair channels, riders are going to revolt. I'm sure they will do all they can to maintain goodwill with the community. At least for now. I mean, Elon Musk could purchase SRAM and then I'd be worried.
You can buy all the parts for that derailleur right now. Take your aluminum foil hat off old man. This is a step in the right direction.
Great video idea. Brilliant business decision.
This is the kind of bike stuff I love to see. Something only Seth could think up lol. Keep up the great work man. This is the outside the box thinking that makes these videos always worth a watch.
As per usual, an excellent explanation told in plain language with enthusiasm. Well done Seth!
I apologize if someone already mentioned, but there is another cool feature of these direct mount derailleurs. It is completely modular. You can replace the components within the derailleur it self. Great content as always. My son and I are hoping to plan a trip to Berm Park.
A replacement cage for Sram Transmission costs the same as a cassette/derailleur/shifter from Microshift, which works 95% as well.
A torque Wrench is one of the most essential tools to have as a home mechanic to ensure the bike parts work as the manufacturer intended and not to overtighten bolts (Imagine having the seat post clamp not tight enough or stripping the screw and having the seatpost drop-down mid-ride)
I've been doing it "man tight" for 30 years, never a single issue.
Not over-tighten and also tighten more than you can tighten, and accurately, not just gorilla-d on there.
Torque wrenches only work on new parts as soon as it gets dirty or worn you need to use your brain. so not that great for a home mechanic.
yes but I'm not carrying one on the fecking trails if I need to take my rear wheel off, what a load of nonsense
but none which goes to about 40Nm. The normal force you need is not above 15Nm. So the one you would need herefore the normal has not at home.
Your content is beautifully shot and your insights are valuable. Wonderful work!
Seth, fantastic video! You're a huge asset to the mountain bike industry! Keep up the hard work!
He used to be I Notice he doesn’t respond to most people that follow him plus he only does videos once in a while now
I would thoroughly enjoy a cable actuated version of this. Personally, I don't really care about the shifting under load part, but I am a big fan of not having to adjust my derailleur, or worry about it falling out of alignment when I smash it into something. That being said though I have never, and probably will never like wireless things in general, even not relating to biking, its just one more thing to remember to charge or else it fails.
And when the battery expires now you need to replace that
if doing need to change under load why bother? and he said it needed electronic timing. so even if it wasn't wireless it would still need a battery. this is just rubbish technology that isn't needed
@@kenfryer2090 it wouldn't have to, when it is able to be connected to the dynamo,
and with a much more common standard wired in parallel to the dynamo the batteries could power the lights and other gadgets too when standing still and probably even get charged when going fast.
I would LOVE more bike repair videos!!!! those were amazing!!! I learned so much watching you go through bikes.
Finally it’s been explained well. I’ve read it in magazines and i was so confused! Thanks Seth! 😊
@Seth, this is the BEST discussion of Transmission I've seen yet. You really got to the how and WHY of it while explaining the tech and tradeoffs. Congratulations!
FWIW, I think I'm on board with the idea of why UDH-less direct mount is smart. But then again, I've been around long enough that replaceable hangers seem like a new idea to me 🙂. So the standardization around UDH or UDH-Direct Mount configurations is a great thing for the industry. I hope gravel kit starts going that way too. BUT, I am concerned about the proprietariness of the full Transmission system. Time will tell if the industry can normalize on the UDH/UDH-DM setup.
I have pretty good insights into the pro world of enduro mountain biking, although I'm just a spectator myself, like the majority of cyclists. However, the current opinion of pro mountain bikers about the new Sram Transmission is that it is not durable enough to be used in World Cup races. Sram has removed the derailleur hanger, but that comes at the expense of a less rigid derailleur cage. The impact tests you see always go to the stress on the attachment to the frame, not the cage of the rear derailleur itself!
Since the introduction of Transmission, it seems many pro riders in EDR have had failures, with some teams even sticking with the "old" AXS groupsets altogether. What does that say? Transmission is so far mainly a marketing masterpiece.
I also had the feeling like there have been some failures in pro level cycling. But I'm not sure if these where SRAM Transmission and what the failure was. But I don't get this: "Sram has removed the derailleur hanger, but that comes at the expense of a less rigid derailleur cage." If the cage is really less rigid then I think this would be an issue of a poor construction but not a principle issue. I rather had the feeling like there have been more torn chains. But not sure...
@@HannesSchmiderer Well, it's in the eye of the beholder whether this is a bad design or not. There are for the new models all kinds of spare parts for expensive money in the aftermarket....
I have now heard a couple of times that the new rear derailleur is more sensitive than the old AXS or the cable-actuated versions.
XT is a third of the price, can shift under load (maybe not quite as well but good enough), is very reliable and I dont have to think about batteries. thats what ill be buying for the foreseeable future
@@tomwhicker7951 thats what ill keep buying, or even better, SLX!
@@tomwhicker7951 XT is also my goto!
Solid explanation. This makes sense for pros and competitors. I'm all for tech, but the dealbreaker for me is the rechargeable battery. What if you forgot to charge and you lost battery near the end of your day? If you're a pro, you have someone to ensure you have extra batteries and it's always charged. Your typical weekend rider? Not so much. I've never had any major issues with mechanical and plan on staying with it for the foreseeable future.
Nice. I like seeing this kinda breakdown. It’s helpful. It’s entertaining. Thank you
Great video! Explained this perfectly. This shifter is amazing. Smoothest most precise shifter I’ve ever used. Game changer for sure.
Shimano's Linkglide and Hyperglide Plus also shift well under load, are considerably cheaper AND don't need a battery. Will also be interesting to see how Linkglide's proposed 300% increase in durability compares to Transmisson.
Shimano does not shift good under load, and thats not only my opinion
Yeah hyperglide+ works great and theres no pedal shock definitely. Linkglide will only be useful for electric bikes, which is where Shimano is putting all the R&D into, especially with their electric derailleurs being linked to their motors.
@@ffabcd5091 Linkglide is also useful for commuters and people who put durability, price and lifespan at the top of their wish list.
@@jooseps186 in my opinion you should check your b tension and hanger alignment.
@@crankshoptv8141 B-tension is the most important adjustment for good shifting.
I think that motor/gearbox combos like the Valeo ebike drivetrain or the Pinion MGU are the true revolution.
The Pinion MGU specifically checks absolutely all the boxes I can think about.
Except a big one called efficiency.
@@T-ReV7That is pretty much irrelevant unless the drivetrain is completely clean and perfectly adjusted. Which on my mountain bikes, lasts for about one mile.
If you look at the motorcycle world, there is a reason high performance, light weight bikes still use chains (vs shaft drive or belt drive touring bikes). ALOT of internet trolls piling on in the comments sections, but the pinion system is likely several years out anyway
Glad I ran into this video. Thanks for the explanation. I'm currently looking for a bike replacement and saw this technology. Now I know what bike rear derailleur combination to purchase.
Thanks for covering this topic! I actually have never heard of this new system and I admit that I'll be kinda late coming in contact with this, because for the past 10 years, I'm working at a Charity organisation "THE CROSSROADS FOUNDATION" IN HK, that receives all used, donated, OLD bikes, in a working (or not) condition and overhaul them for free (I'm retired) so that they can send the overhauled ones to 3rd world countries (mostly in Africa, Vietnam, Phillipines and India) to the under-privileged and Local Doctors and Missionaries, some of still walk from villages to school or work. Like I say, It'll be some time working on OLD DERAILLEURS till I come across this, BUT, thanks again for this NEWS (to me)!
SRAM is full of it that 50% if shifting problems are related to derailleur alignment and you don't need a special tool to get them back into alignment. Most people don't even know which limiter does what or what a tension screw is. Ignorance, poor chain maintenance, and reckless shifting are the reason for most shifting issues. Basically they built a an expensive component for people who don't want to do bike maintenance. I have smashed 1 rear derailleur beyond repair in 30 years of riding mainly ungroomed hiking trails.
Being able to shift under load is a pretty great feature. Helps on hills and accelerating faster.
@@joshualabonte8478 Still run a 32 ring/40 cassette w a 10 speed XTR and don't have too much trouble getting up most everything. I also don't have a 35 lbs bike with 64 HTA, like most new alloy trail bikes. I'm 30lbs packed w water in a 150/130 package. New isn't always better. Industry talk.
I like to see big companies playing the long game and being strategic about their actions, rather than aiming for the quick profit. I’m not a fanboy of the SRAM or anything, but I will gladly get myself one of these in the future when they’re more affordable. And as much as I agree they planted a Trojan horse, I think what it also did, it gave industry a time to prep for the next bigger step. Let’s face it - derailleur hangers were around since very first mountain bikes, steering away from them must be considered a big step!
Very informative. Answered all my questions. Thanks
Again, great to hear your well constructed thoughts, really enjoy your stuff! Thanks
The future, at least for me who will become 60 soon, is something like the new Pinion Geared Motorbox (although I have great fitness and do sports 4-5 times a week).
Combined with a carbon belt drive it is as maintenance free as possible, has a unmatched spread of gear ratio and also shifts under load even without delay.
💯✌✌
true, but on the downside it’s heavier than a derailleur drivetrain, and has much higher internal friction losses…. all of the internal gears in the pinion gearbox are constantly meshed, even though only one pair is driving at any given time, like an automobile transmission….
the big benefit of chains and derailleurs is that they’re very efficient at transmitting power, and they’re lightweight…. and can put up with a lot of mistreatment, poor maintenance and misalignment and keep on working…
There are already lots of broken ones out there. When you crash, *something* has to break no matter how cool it looks to stand on it in photo ops. A $20 hanger is better than a $500 deraileur and even a through axle which will need a shop to remove cleanly. The true failure point is whether SRAM can provide cheap and easy to get replacement parts and let's be real, they actively try to prevent people from getting repair parts for their products, have zero availability of most parts, and price things in some regions like they don't even want any sales.
I like new ideas and net tech, but this is a bad solution to a made up problem and going to be be discontinued with no replacement parts within 5 years.
To add to this, when you write off a traditional derailleur it usually just takes the hanger with it as that's what the hanger is for. When this thing breaks it very well can (and probably will) take the axle and frame with it. Axles are not invincible, hell they're not even absurdly strong and when they break they can take the frame with it. Just ask Rocky Mountain what happened with the Slayer they gave to Pinkbike 🤣Not having that barrier between the derailleur and frame is going to prove to be an issue when you hit the thing hard enough to shear it. And that's not an if, it's a WHEN. I don't care how much your marketing team says that you can stand on it and hit it with a hammer, that thing will shear eventually.
I think it's more likely that it takes hold because of the hype, and that replacement parts will be made by third parties like Problem Solvers, Wheels Manufacturing, Wolf Tooth, etc.
I don't think it's going to be gone in 5 years, let's meet again in 5 years in this comment section.
@@englishwithtimusa hype? ha. no. you need to remember that these groups are at the high end niche, a fraction of a percent of the market for "performance" mountain bikes. Absolutely no one will follow and because sram is only popular at the top end and has low to no share on bike under a few thousand bucks, this is going to fade away... And that is if the product was GOOD, which it is not. Shimano, who does control the broader market tried a new hanger spec a while back... abandoned as of 12 speed cause absolutely no one was interested. But at least that is just a hanger.
And wolf tooth I don't see making upper derailleur assemblies that hold the battery pack etc. That is sram's job. Right NOW, the only parts available are cage assemblies for $140-$200 usd - which is flat out absurd. Transmission is a disposable $500 derailleur built at a time where buyers are fighting that concept and laws are being implemented to actually stop product designs like this.
There is a pattern to SRAM's business, and this fits right in. Flashy, proprietary, full of hype but not particularly well engineered, and abandoned in a short time. They are the Sony of cycling.
@@andreashabeck1155 Sure thing. I will bet 1 shiny nickel that within 5 years, you will not be able to get ANY repair parts for these recently launched derailleurs, and sram will have already have announced or launched versions that fit standard hangers.
I love your videos. They're entreating and easy for knuckleheads like me to understand!!
This was very interesting and helpful, thanks Seth!
Thanx for a great video Seth! Personally I'm a bit sad. Although I think all the technological advances we have seen in the MTB industry in the last 10odd years has been phenomenal... the cost accompanying these changes has been massive though. Considered "middle-class" South African, a new decent MTB will set me back a full month's salary. Just keeping my 2016 Silverback Sola 4 hardtail on the trails is costing me and arm and a leg... but while it's running I'm loving it and will keep going as long as I can! Keep the content coming. You're doing an awesome job both being helpful AND entertaining!
I am not a mountain biker, I only do road and light gravel, but I can only agree with the point about shifting under load. I recently transitioned to the new Ultegra Di2, and man... Before I was like "Shifting while climbing out of the saddle, are you insane!?" and now I'm just...doing it, because it works, and I can, and it really makes a difference.
and your life is so much better now
@@emanuele8226 Well, this detail is ;-)
It reminds me of the gear hub in my touring bike that offers "shifting at any cadence". I noticed that's quite useful when cycling with bags or trailer.
The trade off as mentions is slower shifting in return for that ability to shift under load. This dumbing down of shifting doesn't reduce thinking work for bike riding in my opinion.
Really nice breakdown / walkthrough, I valued the video. Cheers.
So happy i watched your video. All the other marketing based videos haven't made it clear about the udh interface which leaves people thinking they wont be able to upgrade... now they know there is a good chance they can!!
The only reason I don't like wireless is on principle. A bike should work properly without batteries of any kind. There is no reason why a system like this couldn't be made battery free despite requiring electronics.
how are you planning to make something that needs to be electronic without batteries?
A cable actuated direct mount system could be made without any of the electronics, and I hope someone does that. The timing part would be challenging to do without electronics, but to me that part is secondary to eliminating the derailleur hanger.
@@matess3655 all you need is a capacitor and an extremely tiny motor attached to one of the many gear hubs in the derailleur. The necessary electronics probably use only milliwatts of power, that is pretty trivial to achieve without wasting any torque.
Since it is good for e-bikes does it have to have that stupid little battery?
@@matess3655 Easy, use piezoelectric crystals in the shifter like they do in battery free Philips Hue wireless light switches.
Then use a very small dynamo in the hub to move the derailleur.
Like Seth said in the vid, the thru axle needs to be tightened to a certain torque spec. What happens when you need to take the wheel out on the trail. You won't have a torque wrench with you. Will the shifting be that much worse if the axle is not tightened to spec?
Just like everything that’s analog on your bike it’ll get you home perfectly fine. The reason you took the wheel off is probably to fix a flat. Do you have a method to get the psi exactly right? No, but it’ll be close, it’ll get you home, and you can torque or fix the PSI later
Great review and thanks for the pros and cons. Lets wait for shimano and other brands to follow the trend. And to think the debate about changing wheel sizes from 26" to 27.5" to 29" wasn't that long ago.
Been riding the new Sram XX SL transmission for about a month now. Absolutely love it!!
As an engineer, I have serious concerns about direct mount as a concept. Sram can talk for as long as they want about how strong they made it, but in an impact, *something* has to give. That's just physics. With no replaceable hanger, the options are: a) the deuralleur body, b) the rear triangle of the frame, or c) the wheel hub by way of the thru axle. I'm sorry, but I'd rather replace a 5 dollar part. I'm not going to say there are no advantages to direct mount, but I think Sram is being extremely cavalier about the system's risks for the sake of flashy marketing and forcing a proprietary standard that they control into the industry.
the derailleur gives first. that's why they make is retract, but hit it sideways hard enough it will break. it takes a lot more than a hanger though, so that's the trade off.
My friend is a bike mechanic and told me about someone that came in with a broken transmission derailleur. It broke in every possible way.
The performance benefits seem good and UDH is a win since these frames can use traditional derailleurs as well, but I’m going to keep using derailleur hangers.
What do you mean? The udh is a hanger isn't it?
Imagine a engineer not mentioning that they are a engineer. Everyone can figure that out.
@@kangsterizer I agree with you. It's basically the principle of "the weakest Link" which should be the hanger and not the frame. Cheaper to replace a removable hanger then the frame! I had a FIBERGLASS racing frame (with a cracked rear frame below the seat) using the electric changer, and the whole frame needed to be changed, so I tossed the bike instead, and opted for a new one. The derailleur was not damaged!
FINALLY someone made a transmission video that's easy to understand for newer riders ... No surprise it's Seth!!
I'd love to see more on belt drives and how they are surpassing classic derailer systems. More clearance, less slippage, more positive gear changes, etc.
Been riding my Revel Ranger XX1 for a year and I love the SRAM AXS transmission! Even did three days of lift access DH at Alyeska Resort in the rain/ mud. No issues. 😀
I think shimano won't drastically change anything. They have the advantage of being able to shift a lot of gears very quickly which is super useful in undulating terrain, and shifting under load is really good too.
Still very curious as to what they'll bring to the table with their next gen XT groupset.
Only one chain ring! what a slow speed bike setup, no good racing cars in town or slipstreaming trucks. Need change many gears quickly not waiting for sun & moon alignments especially standing starts going downhill or speeding up before hill then jumping to lower cogs. The shimano STi rapid fire shifters finally gave up after 31yrs. Will that battery last many, many years or just another throw away?
I ditched the XTR on my XC bike. The marketing didn't match the performance.
Yep, the worst thing about my GX Eagle is the ability to only shift down a single gear per click where my old XT M8000, 3 gears from 1 press. Anyone who remembers the transition from regular and uniglide cassettes to Hyperglide remembers how much better shifting under power became. It will be interesting to see wear profiles of Shimano vs SRAM with power shifting vs soft peddle shifting (well softer after uniglide). Power shifting anything with a chain, ramps or timed shifting is going to wear it quickly.
@@carlwilliams3488 I still have my trusty old twist shifters on my bike, the newest one being a Rohloff twist shift, the old one being the last generation under the brand name Sachs before Sram bought it out. Still on a 3x7 and 3x8 setup on some bikes I have. It just works (and since I am older and no longer riding as much and as hard, it might last a long time! Problably have to change to electric in a few years when I cannot catch up with my kids anymore (till now I still can 😉)
And I am that long in the game that I still have unindexed 3x6 riding done on tumb shifters and underbar shifters in my memory 😂
At one stage I even rode bar end shifters from the race bike on my mountain bike with an extra wide time trial bar (combined with Magura HS77 Racebar brakes). That whole setup was really dangerous for other drivers in races on chrashes, so I gave up on it. Even so it was really good on steep climbs.
I haven’t tested the new Stam group set to see how this shift under pressure works, but on a XC race I prefer always a fast gear shifting as my XT provides.
My Super Caliber gen1 is UDH and I’m studying if this changes bring me some benefits… 🤔
Good morning guys, greetings from México , Reynosa , Tamaulipas
awesome break down, mate. Loved this video. As a casual ride, i never knew about the UDH, but now I'm glad I do.
Looks like a solid pistol mounted on the bike. Love it. :D
Thanks for the info. Road biker here (proudly bought an old SRAM Red eTap this year) and wanted to inform myself about the MTB scene :D
I'd love to see a derailleur that just mounts to the thru axle like this with none of the other frills, as although it all looks amazing, electric and wireless drive trains are definitely out of my budget for now.
We need more standards like UDH!
Love the detailed explanation, thanks
I love that you talk about what's going on in the bike industry.
Can't wait till they intorduce app subscription so you have to pay monthly to shift gears!
Could even have different tiers, for different ranges of gears you are allowed to use...
@@posleterrible9542 and they'll try to tell you that you can buy the cheaper "DH gears" subscription if you're only riding park so you can save! Clown world is coming to mtb finally.
The biggest let down is needing to carry a torque wrench on the trail when you get a flat in the rear hahahaha
yeah, wow, I was super on board until that statement too - some of us take both wheels off to get bikes in the backs of our cars
He torqued the derailleur side down not the wheel side. You will be just fine taking your wheel on and off.
Or just go by feel.
It's top end torque, and it doesn't really matter, and you won't reach it by hand with your multi tool
Love the SRAM T-Type stuff here. My boss at my shop owns it on his E-Bike, and he absolutely smashed a Cage on his XO, completely bent.
Nice part of this new stuff, is you can just throw a new cage on. Didn't fix any of his shifting issues, and he needed a while derailuer again.
Thanks for a great explainer on this new tech.
I love axs. I wish all my bikes were wireless because cables are always changing and requiring adjustment. The weight difference is negligible.
Seth ❤the show and all your context. The info is awesome and music is fire every time but reality is most may never afford what ypu just showed us and it hard to realize lol but true but I love to see it and dream one day man one day have a blessed day seth.
So many great reasons to stick with the pre-transmission drive train! Thanks for the explanation!
Tbh, this isn't a big deal really. It's too expensive for many and just an improvement on what we already have.
The derailleur is still vulnerable to rock garden damage and it's still alot of weight at the wheel where we don't want it. We need more efficient sealed transmissions like the Pinion gearbox's.
The weight is centralised and sprung.
Maintenance is minimal too. But, that's probably not as profitable as mechs & cassettes for Sram & Shimano so we'll probably never see one from them anytime soon.
True. I tested the brand new Pinion e-motor (with 12 speed integrated gearbox). That thing shifts so fast (way faster than SRAM wireless) and is maintenance free with a belt drive. Only a oil change every 10 000 km. Only thing is, it is more suitable at the moment to the ebikes (because of the weight). But we'll see in the future.
Sounds like an expensive and proprietary system that won't be used by many companies. What I'd really like to see on bikes is something like a CVT or automatic transmission. No shifting, just pedal and go.
you can get one today. Enviolo.
You can align your drailleur hanger with an old quick release front wheel. Does not matter if MTB / ATB / or road. Unscrew your derailleur, screw in your wheelaxle ( jep, it will fit ) and align your derailleur hanger with the wheel.. 😎
Super educational! Thank you.
What Shimano did is release the new budget groupset "Shimano cues", I think what sram idea is to dominate the high-end market, while Shimano focuses on the affordable side of the market
Also consider how good mid end Shimano components are, deore 4 pot brakes and 12 speed drivetrains are really good bang for your buck.
This is DEFINITELY false. During the pandemic, while Shimano's products disappeared from the market while they were ramping up for 12sp Dura Ace and Ultegra, SRAM was busy bringing us all Rival and GX AXS. Then when Shimano brings out 12 speed 105, SRAM brought us Apex AXS. SRAM has long been eating Shimano's food on the lower end side of the market. I think they're genuinely trying to bring about something that will improve mountain biking. Because L-TWOO and Sensah and Microshift and Box have been forcing Shimano and SRAM to be competitive with the lower end...
Shimano is much more focused on the performance road bike market, where it massively dominates over Sram (well, not speaking of powermeter accuracy… but in terms of efficiency, front derailleur shifting speed and number of teams using Di2 over AXS). I have ridden a few different levels of mechanical Shimano as well as Sram Eagle groupsets, currently I have Shimano XTR and it's leagues ahead of anything else I've tried and if Shimano wants to keep the MTB drivetrains mechanical, there's little room for improvement. That puts Shimano in a difficult situation, because the only way to improve its top-end MTB drivetrains would be to switch to electronic and wireless, or direct mount or both, all of these variants would be (I guss) hard to achieve without conflicting with Sram's patents. Sram on the other hand doesn't care about entry level stuff, so that's where Shimano gets money in the MTB department from and maybe doesn't really need to focus on renewing it's top-end components, since they're still more than capable of winning World Cup level races.
Idk it's still quite a lot especially the u8000.
@@seanrequiredfieldcannotbel1362 this is DEFINETELY false view of yours on what budget market is. Apex and 105 are mere teasers for luxury upper tiers. SX falls apart just at the right time you start liking sram cassettes and won't downgrade. Budget is tourney...alivio, which are currently getting replaced by cues, and - oh wait - sram really gave up on x3...x9. Because Ltwoo is based on older sram designs and production and knows better then sram itself how to make budget parts.
Oh I already see lots of lost battery/port caps on the trails... that's what's gonna change... oh, and also it will become harder and harder to get a off-shelf bike without those pesky contraptions... yeah, i know it's just my problem, but still I prefer a fully mechanical gear, the simplest the better, so there's less thing to break and easier to fix out in the wild... granted, i'm not into competitive biking, just a bike touring guy, which brings everything and a kitchen sink along, so it might not make a big difference in the long run. most things rarely break if build well...
still... another gizmo to keep charged! they could fit a dynamo in jokey wheels 🙃🙃
And proprietary batteries leading into even more landfill. Are the bats even compatible between the new new shifter and the old one, or with the dropper post? Not to mention cross brand...
Finally someone who got it right! So many videos slate this for getting rid of the hanger and jump on the ‘it will ruin frames’ band wagon. They all miss one fact - the axle. 🎉
The axle is obviously firmly attached to the frame. If the axle takes enough damage, the frame can be damaged along with it. That said, idk how much damage it would take to even damage the axle. No consumer really knows yet since the product is so new. Really unwise to assume it 100% prevents frame damage.
@@EricPeelMusic this is true. But also similar to derailleur hanger in that they do not protect 100% from damage either.
Your content and videos are really impressive. Keep going.
After having a couple of emtbs in the stable the past few years I have to say that this new group set is evolutionary. I’ve been running the new XO on my Levo lately and it is light years ahead of the old stuff. Time will tell how it holds up, but I’m tracking mileage now. After blowing through chains and cassettes at an alarming rate, this is worth it for an Ebike at least. Shimano is working on a link glide drivetrain that can shift without pedaling on e-bikes by using the motor to spin the chainring. That will be game changing. If you can press the shift button but keep your pedals level and the bike shifts, it could really open up some new possibilities for riding janky lines
I think SRAM did a really impressive move with this product. I personally will never consider electric shifting though. For me a bike had to be 100% self-sufficient. I want it to be always ready. Imagine you can't ride your bike because you forgot to charge the shifter. That's why I also have dynamo lights.
Great Video! You Said that an extensive Tool ist required to get the derailleur Hanger straight but I know a Lifehack where you usw an old wheel with threads. First you Take the derailleur of the Hanger and then screw that wheel in the hole. Now you can use the wheel for leverage and you can meassure the distance between both rims at different spots to know If the Hanger ist straight. Could also be a great Idea for a Lifehack Video.
nailed it. Exactly the content i was looking for :)
if only I could afford that. I can't even get a $500 bike. let alone a $1000 drive train.
Assuming others can make direct mount derailleurs without treading on patents, $400 bikes could someday have more durable drivetrains.
@@BermPeakExpress i would love to see that day, and for early adopters, i thank you already because i only see myself buying a used bike (even if they're "cheap") years from now
@@BermPeakExpress this is true
@@BermPeakExpress do you have any bike suggestions for under $1500 Australian dollars
@@BermPeakExpress Di2 has been around for a decade, it's still prohibitively expensive for most riders. I don't want to bemoan technology enhancements. But some of these developments aren't designed to trickle down, they'll always be aspirational.
That seems like a 13 minute commercial for Transmission
Seth, your video are so well done, so interesting, Great work!
Great video, thanks for explaining.
My 2020 Mountainbike is equiped with GX Eagle. I considered that a downside over the Shimano XT I used to buy on two previous bikes. I've just replaced the drive train, after a whopping 11.550km on a single set of gears and five chains . This is a clear improvement in durability over Shimano XT, loving it ❤
laughs in 400 dollar mountain bike i take down double black diomand trails
Such a good fun and informative video and an amazing looking product. Also, it really can’t hurt to have to own a torque wrench. Torque specs are there for a reason.
Great explanation! Thank you👏👏👏
you can stand on any derailleur like you stood on this eagle one...try to stand & push hard on the jockey wheel part...it will break & bend like other...
The channels gone full sales. I miss the content.
Agree, just annoying marketing.
if you stand on another derailleur you will bend the derailleur hanger
@@BermPeakExpress and that's it's purpose... Here you'll bend a part that they won't replace for you and you'll need to buy a new setup...
Fully agreed ,,, all the videos i have seen they are standing on the thru axle part , so its nonsense ... wake up and look at the videos properly , I can stand there on my normal GX derailleur !!!!!