Love your videos and it is great they are coming out with these new options. I have considered a geared hub for my old Softride daily commuter, but concluded it's easier to just use 7 speed derailleurs/cassettes/chains which are dirt cheap and I can replace every year. If I was building a custom touring bike, I would definitely consider a geared hub, but not sure that will ever happen
I have one! I'm also considering building an ebike with one. I like belt drives as I live in a place with some funky weather, and I generally just like the look. But as I'd be stuck with a single speed otherwise, I do like IGH's
I just got a Pinion C1.12 and it's perfect for terrain with >20% hills and heavy load (San Francisco). I regularly use the lowest and highest gears. If anything, I want more than 600% gear range. Maybe I should add a Rohloff hub. :)
About 40 years ago, I owned a hub similar to the classified hub, produced by Sachs in Germany. (Sachs Orbit HT)It was a perfect fit at the time for my touring bike, because it combined 2 hub gears with 6 derailer gears and a drum break. This combination worked way better than rim break bikes at the time. Durability was realy impressive and maintenance cost very low. Only the shifters aged rather quickly. Unfotunately it was not percieved well enough to continue production. Over all, one of my favorite bikes, used as a daily driver for many years. I wish classified more luck.
9:53 - One thing that motor manufacturers really need to do is get standardized shapes and sizes, as that will make manufacturing cheaper. But that's not nearly as important as standardizing batteries shapes, sizes and interfaces!
I bought a Rize MD (mid drive) 6 weeks ago and now the rear cassette is damaged. I tried to buy a new one locally, but guess what, the rear hub is unique in the world and no standard cassette will fit it. I contacted Rize and they want a video to show the "problem" and pictures to show the damage. It's a huge issue.
@@andrzejfabianski4948 I never said it'd be cheaper for the consumer, though I'd argue the standardization of things like AA, AAA etc. batteries and the charge plug on cell phones made those cheap commodities for consumers. Cheaper frame manufacturing is a competitive advantage for the OEMs that end up taking advantage of it, because they can increase their profit margin.
Amazing depth of information here. I'm really excted for the future of bikes - light EV bikes with hub gears makes cycling far more excessible. I was recently bike touring in France and it was inspiring to see so many older, clearly unfit people enjoying long trips on e-bikes. It was also obvious that couples were using them to 'even up' their cycling ability so a weaker rider could keep up with her partner without a problem.
The Classified hub does sound super interesting because it sounds like it would get past so many issues and also open up compatibility with many quite affordable groupsets. The catch is that it is so prohibitively expensive. It's obscene how much it costs, and a lot of that could have been remedied through making a mechanical/hydraulic shifting version, and using otherwise standard layouts that don't require you to buy very specific wheelsets.
It's also way too heavy for its target market - road / gravel race bikes (it's definitely not intended for adventure / bikepacking / e-bikes). Too much weight on the rear wheel. Plus the thru axle battery / electronics / antenna are just begging to get smashed.
Hopefully it comes down in price… there is huge potential savings in cassette price and selection ($30 USD for an 11-28 vs $120 for a 11-50) and also not having to spec a long cage derailleur with capacity for those large cogs.
@@pratikpramanik7782 No. You have to use their special cassette, which has a big cut out for the mechanism at the axle. The cassettes are quite a bit more expensive than standard ones, as they have to be machined from a solid piece of metal (no individual cogs). I think this is one reason why the system is so expensive, not only to acquire, but also to use.
I've got a touring/bikepacking bike built around the c1.12 pinion and love it. I'm definitely a convert to internal gearing. I'm now really tempted to go through the work to convert my commuter to a cheap Shimano Alfine. I'm happy to see more companies developing new gear hub options. The ebike market space seems like a perfect place to explore their potential and get more gearboxes on the road
@Shep Raynham going internal gear hub or pinion does add weight for sure. I have never ridden any of the gear hubs, so I can't speak directly to your experience. The pinion weighs 1.5lbs more then nx eagle, however I'm not as concerned for touring/bikepacking. I am much happier to have greater gear range and more peace of mind, and I'm going to be putting on ~15-20lbs of stuff on the bike anyway. I have ridden the bike on gravel group rides and for that I'm a little slower but I'm more apt to blame my fatter tires or lack of fitness as bigger factors. The pinion does have a really slow engagement which could be annoying, so I bought a fast engagement hub to try to offset that some.
Great overview! And nice to see the leap in innovations, esp. for simpler everyday e-bike drivesystems (or MTB/downhill, as shown in the clips) The electronic automation of Pinion is awesome!
One to mention is Schlumpfdrive - seems more popular in the recumbent world, at least every time I see mention of them it's in reference to a recumbent. But they look to be another slick / well engineered 2 speed front mech replacer, though the shifting is pretty different. I actually think it looks really cool for a crankset for a single speed that then becomes a stealthy two speed with no extra cables.
I have a Pinion c1.9 gearbox. 9 speeds over 568% I find perfectly sufficient. I suspect that small gear steps is a tradition inherited from early derailleurs where big steps were difficult and from racing where optimum cadence was important. Also small steps make gearboxes more expensive and so more profitable. It makes a good city bike. But for touring I've drifted back to my lighter more efficient 44/32/22 11/34 derailleur bike. Partly because I find the twist grip difficult with thumb joint pain. Partly because the Pinion bike is heavy.
Been working on the Shimano Hubs for along time and have got around that grease thing by replacing the Shimano grease that doesn't hold up to water and especially salt water with a mixture of Lucas Red n Tacky and a good mineral oil based automatic transmission fluid. About 1/3 grease that helps keep the fluid in the hub and it holds up to salt water better. I vote ever thing in it and squirt some extra into the hub shell before closing it up that way the extra stuff is continuously bathing the internal gears inside this lasts a long time several years even with heavy use still should be overhaul 3 to 5 thousand miles depending on riding conditions use the last overhaul to gauge it. It's a lot easier to clean up at the next overhaul and doesn't mess with the shifting and stays stable at low temperatures. The only problem with this is it with void the warranty but the hub will stay in service for decades. ATF is good stuff automatic transmissions last for decades if that fluid is changed on schedule BMW even used it in their manual transmissions for a long time because it's good stuff. Just clean up what leaks out during your routine mantainance and cleaning (a little bike wash or diluted dish soap to clean it up and leamon pledge to repel dust and make it shine just keep it off the braking surface 95% alcohol with clean that surface when you're done pretty well anyway. The bargon polish doesn't work as well... from experience but a clean bike is a happy bike and happy mechanic too so clean it before taking it to one and you will get better service
I've been running 2 Rohloff hubs for close to 10 years for mountain biking only. I am actually interested most in the 3x3 hub since I usually want larger gear drops. 90% of the time I find myself dropping or gaining 2 to 5 gears at time with my Rohloff hub. I rarely only increase or decrease by 1 gear. The range increase also is a bit welcome. I may consider it for my next bike but I want to know the efficiency across all of it's gears.
Revonte is a system based out of Finland that combines an ebike mid-drive motor with an integrated automatic transmission. All-to is a small Korean startup which is focusing on making an inexpensive gearbox system for pedal bikes, that can be mass manufactured at low cost.
I have been using Schlumpf bb drives for years for dingle speed and cassettes. I now use them on my front hub drop bar 700c/40+c bikes that don't use PAS just a throttle controlled infinitely variable cruise function. My Speed Drive @ 1.65 to 1 with a 27t chainring will pedal effectively up to 40kmh with an 11t rear cog. My High Speed Drive will pedal effectively up to 55kmh with its 2.25 to 1 ratio also used with a Direct Drive front hub motor. My friend the other day on his Class 1 Giant eMTB accused me of riding a motorcycle granted I don't have any speed cutoff like his does.
Any day a cyclingabout video comes out is a good day. I want more gearboxes for MTB. I tire of cleaning gears after every ride. I just had to spend $120 to replace 4 chains across my fleet and I'll need a couple of new cassettes at my next chain replacement. A Zerode Kaitipo is my dream bike.
That is the exact reason why I chose an old school hub motor (but direct drive) for my electric bike. Not to put more strain on the drive chain than necessary as pedal forces and motor forces are transferred completely independent to the wheels. The issue with crank motors are that they put a lot of strain on the chain and gearbox - and I think I change chain on my regular bike enough already. And I chose with closed chain box too. That really has helped - only lubed the chain on the ebike so far. Perhaps if there's nice low loss low maintenance crank gearboxes which are build sturdier and using larger sprockets (to lessen strain on chain and perhaps a tooth belt instead of chain) then it might be worth considering. The current option with regular Shimano 7 speed gearbox and crank motors I'm not a fan of. For a start I don't think the Shimano 7 speed boxes are as robust or low loss as the old Sram (3 speed) boxes which really could take a beating.
The 3x3 and the hub1 are interesting to me because my wife is disabled and I have been designing an off-road wheelchair for her, and those hubs operate in reverse. I had resigned to building something with some massive motors as that is the only way to achieve enough torque to handle a 30% incline and achieve more than 4 mph. These allow me to use more reasonably sized components. Ie I don’t have to use motors designed for cars anymore to get my desired torque. The motors I was considering were qsmotor 8kw hub motors. Now I can use mid drive style motors. Thank you.
Hi Alee, I hope that Africa is treating you well! I just ordered a 3x3 Nine wheel kit thru Old Spokes Home for my Cannondale Motera Neo 3 FS ebike. Wish I could use a belt drive but this'll be a good step up from the 1x12 stock setup. This bike has replaced my stolen Priority 600x with Pinion and belt drive. It allows me to keep up the Dhruba who is 26 years younger and has bionic motor legs!
I like the front derailleurs removed from bikes, and I like the trend to 11 gear (or whatever) rear derailleurs. I don't see much need for gearboxes on the general use bicycle. Though, if they became superior in most of the critical ways, and cheap enough, they will probably take over.
In the US I find them expensive also. I’m starting to save for a set up. Will take about 3 years. By that time the market will stabilize and I’ll have a shop to install it.
I'd love to know, too! I'm currently thinking about buying a nice bike, not even sure if battery or leg only powered though lol. Only certain that I want a drive belt, so derailours won't be an option.
@@jacksonbaker353 One word: charging. Pushing your foot down is incredibly simple, and this simplicity is often the reason why I go for a ride at all.
To me, any gearbox requiring a specific frame modification is a non-starter. 3x3 Nine is the one I’ll be watching, mainly for its ability to handle very high torque from screamer mid-drives like the CYC X1 Pro Gen 2.
My fully automatic Nuvici continuous gear has worked perfectly for over a year. Although it requires electric power and therefore can be used on electric bikes only, it makes cycling so much easier that I have usually the motor switched off.
I once had a freewheel hub for my roadbike that was perfectly silent when coasting. Having a tough time finding that now, but these new advances are worth looking into as well
Short extensions can be added to drop bars to mount a mechanical twist shifter. In using a gear hub on a drop bar bike, this worked for me as most of my riding was city, utility and in the drops for best braking control. Commuting in a city/urban environment is a sprint being stops or big slowdowns. Even on the trails, one has to contend with peds, peds with dogs, kids and clueless other riders in the bike lanes. The "sprint between stops" has got better on some routes where the traffic lights are timed to a speed bicyclists can maintain without having to be super fit. The options available now with electric shifting seem to offer a big savings in difficulty in set up (Rohloff), vulnerability (Alfine which shares some of the deraileur vulnerabilities to drive side crashes), lower maintanance (adjusting, cleaning, replacing cables and housings and lubing cable systems) and prefered shifter styles, quick fire button styles or drop bar brake/shifer combos).
>Until recently, Rohloff was the only gear hub option that you needed to know about. I lol'd so hard. Probably will share that wise thought with my commuter friends riding shimano nexuses and alfines for year all year long including snowy winters so that they could have a good laugh too. And yeah, zero problems with even okayish grease in temperatures up to -25C. Doesn't get a lot colder than that in here. Also most, if not all problems with grease lubrication come from the hygroscopic shimano bentonite (pet litterbox filling) grease which can suck moisture even from air, not to mention riding it in wet conditions. Just swap it out for some actual grease and you'll be a-ok. >more common oil lubrication system In the price range of over 1000$ maybe. A real minority compared to 3-4-5-7-8-9-11 shimano/sram/sturmey-archer gear hubs which all run on grease. All this stuff for people who can throw around tens of thousands at a whim is kinda cool (how you can make a quite mediocre thing, slap FOR EBIKES!!! on it and get away with pricing it three times higher), but it's really sad to not see any development in the non-sporty direction. Commuters are also people and they need simple and cheap gear hubs, not a ten thousand buck e-bike that can dish out 300Nm of torque. Though nobody thinks about them. Kinda sad.
the trouble with the Classified hub IMO is that MTBs are often now designed for ~32t chainrings. One of those with say a 36t would give a broader range in both directions. This is a gripe with frame designers mind, not the hubs. Also these days large cassettes can be quite light, my chinese 11-46 is like 370g (sure a low end sram is over double that...) Gearbox development sure is interesting though, I look forward to when they're comparable in efficiency as they sure seem a better system than derailleurs
It’s exciting to see the bike industry finally showing signs of going in the direction that I’ve always been wanting to see. It feels like it’s been stuck in a rut for decades.
For my needs I'm happy in the rut tbh. I can understand some top sportsman may want this but I wouldn't want to be forced into over complicated technology that takes away from enjoyment of the simplicity of a more traditional bike.
@@argonaut6386 derailleur drivetrains are incredibly fragile and require a lot of maintenance, especially if you do all-weather riding. Most hubs lack the range to do the 10 to 15% uphill climb as well as the 45kph cruise with tailwind. Anything modern that actually works will bring more people back to using bicycles in my opinion.
Great to see innovation flourishing in the e-bike world. But like you, Alee, I'm most excited by the Classified MTB hub. It could genuinely shake up the 1x12 hegemony.
I’ve got a Rholoff on my recumbent touring trike where the unsprung weight isn’t a concern and the ability to shift while stopped is critical… it’s awesome! I seem to recall that Nicolai had been working on a MTB design (the G-Boxx?) that was going to mount a Rholoff as a mid-drive almost 20 years ago now. Wonder what ever came of that?
As an electric bike rider, I'm pretty much done with gearboxes. I always ride everywhere in the same gear. I always go in the lowest assist level. If I needed help, I would turn up the electric assist. In turn, I'd like a very cheap and resilient single chain system rather than any gearbox. BTW, I want my motor mid-drive. If there is a product I'd like, it would be a bullet-proof, high-performance, cheap replacement for the Bafang BBSHD. No, I won't pay someone a million $/Eu/L for it.
Great overview of a fast evolving segment. Seeing drive belts made wonder if anyone has ever tried to develop a breakable belt? If worked would greatly expand the gearbox frame combo options
Yes, the Veer belts are breakable. But you should ideally have a belt-specific frame anyway, which ensures the rear triangle is stiff enough to keep the belt running nicely.
I was looking to upgrade my recumbent trike drivetrain this coming January. That last one from Classified would solve so many issues with machines that have THREE chain lengths worth of chain. No front derailleur is a huge deal but with three chain lengths, the cross-chaining is pretty harsh. Having a smaller cog set in back with the internal granny gear(s) would be a God-send. I might wait a while longer now that I know these are coming!
I’ve got the Rholoff on my Catrike Speed recumbent trike and highly recommend it. The ability to shift while stopped, shift under load and run a nearly fixed chain (I’m using the Rholoff tensioner) are nice on any bike but are massive improvements on a trike. Expensive, yes. However, the long-tested reliability and well-established parts availability are major benefits when compared to some of the newer offerings, iMHO. Enjoy your project!
@@grantandre79 I know. My trike is going on its fifth season of 2,500 miles. So, things are getting worn out. I'm also getting older and those Bosche motors are looking tasty too! Patience seems to be the best bet for now. Just getting the Dumont tuned up for the season. Maybe I can make the third derailleur last through the year (not likely but I can always hope). The Rholoff hub is a great drivetrain component. To do that, I need a new rolling frame though which means a new custom build from ground up. That's likely my path forward but I'll probably just get the kit with the motor and be done with upgrades for another five years.
Harrumph! 🙂 So slick and neat and clean... This is fantasy biking. I'm skint and live in the north of England; sold my car a decade ago, can't afford buses, taxis or trains, so cycling is my only way of getting around besides walking. My bike is 15 years old and worth about £25 [twenty-five]. It's a sad old donkey with add-on racks and panniers and weighs about 50 lbs [23 kg] unladen. It can carry another 50 lbs of 'stuff'. I built a 2-wheeled trailer from salvaged scrap (total cost £8 [eight]) big enough to carry 6 bags of groceries. I ride 70 essential miles a week. I gave up riding for fun years ago. Any fancy bike left unattended around here - chained up and padlocked outside a supermarket, for instance - will be gone in 60 seconds. I'm not kidding. Lads in vans have mates on foot who tour the streets and car parks, looking for 'tasty' gear. (This includes motorbikes; the vans have hoists and winches in the back.) Mobile phones, GPS and Google street maps (or whatever) make things ridiculously easy. Once alerted by their scouts, the lads in vans descend like vultures in hi-vis jackets, armed with bolt-cutters and angle-grinders. A £5,000 regular bike or e-bike (or a £20,000 motorbike) would be nicked in no more than a minute. If it's got a tracker unit fitted - maybe built permanently into the frame - the bike will be stripped of components whilst still in the back of the van; the expensive shiny bits will be for sale on eBay within the hour, and the tracker-unit/frame will be swimming with the fishes in the nearest canal before the cops have finished their doughnuts. Posh bikes look great in the adverts, but they're always being ridden, aren't they. Surrounded by gorgeous people. Shiny teeth. Lycra. There's always someone in the saddle. You don't see them outside Sainsbury's with a dog peeing on the rear hub or some jealous Stella-swilling duck-wit sticking nails into the tyres out of spite. I'd be scared even to stop at traffic lights on a nice bike; people are mugged for their cash, their shoes, their watches, and their phones, so riding a bike worth more than £100 [one-hundred] is asking for trouble. Fortunately, like e-bikes, this new tech is so ludicrously expensive that I'll never be able to afford it. Heck, I couldn't even afford to insure it - the annual premium would be 10x the value of my current setup. Yay for poverty! 😁
Great video; I look forward to trying some of these one day. For now, I'm loving my Enviolo CVT hub, despite not having an e-bike. I guess you don't know how much efficiency you're losing until you try something more efficient?!
Correct. Most human senses are very bad as absolute "measuring instruments" and can do only comparison/relative measurements against something else. So if all you've ever had is Enviolo hub bike, your senses literally can't know the difference. Myself bought Yamaha PW motor Haibike in end of 2018 and that was clearly more than little draggy when motor isn't assisting (compared to normal bikes) and reaching 30 km/h on flat ground was hard. Now with new Bosch CX Gen4 motor bike I'm back to reaching 35 km/h speeds with freewheel decoupling cranks completely from motor.
I've had enviolo (NuVinci) hubs for over a decade now. The efficiency is a very complex thing, it tends to drop the further you go from the middle 1:1 ratio. Also drops with increased torque or power. Near 1:1 ratio and at sensible power output it can be quite efficient, the sort of conditions you likely spend most time riding at.
All very nice apart from the cost and weight of these things, essentially ebikes are turning into lightweight motor bikes where as derailleurs are lightweight, efficient and cheap.
With the classified dual mode hub, you could use it in combination with 2 chain ring up front that you flick the chain onto by hand for when you add an electric motor or not. I think it's gonna be a useful & cool tech
Just purchased a Specialied Vado 5.0 with Envielo igh and auto shifting. I had already bought a Priority Current with igh and belt but don't like twist shifters like it and most igh's have. The auto on the Specialized has the same Brose motor and looks to be the same setup that the newer Harley Davidson Serial 1's are using. You can set your desired cadence level to 7 different levels on the fly and also to what gear it downshifts to when stopped. Would be nice to have more settings on the fly like changing to manual electronic shifting if desired. Not sure I can ever go back to a derailleur.
As a biker and cyclist I can see the cycling world adopt more and more features from the motorcycle world. A gearbox with neutral, oil changes, disc brakes, tubeless tyres etc!
Eh. I still like my 3 x 7 derailleur gears. Hydraulic disc brakes though, they've been great. But anytime there's any sort of drivetrain stuff that pops up (years ago it was the solid shaft instead of a chain - where did that go?) it usually smells like snake oil. None of it can top the efficiency of derailleur gears, it's like trying to reinvent the wheel.
In my 45 years of bicycling, here are technologies I found that actually made a difference (a short list) 1. Fat tires (we can ride places where we previously couldn't) 2. Suspension, esp. front (ditto) 3. Flat, wide handlebarsbars (more stability and control) 4. Dropper posts (safer, more stable descents) 5. Modern, stretched-out mtb geometry (ditto) 6. Aluminum (lightweight bikes at a reasonable cost) Everything else.. .meh ps. I am on the edge about disk brakes
I came back to cycling for the first time since a time when only rim brakes were available and I think disc brakes are really neat, especially hydraulics. I also think tubeless should be on your list.
Straight handlebars are not exactly *new* technology. Old bikes not designed for racing (or to ape racing bikes) normally had either straight or gull-wing (nearly straight) bars. They never really went away on city bikes, it's just that drop handlebars became trendy with the 1970s bike-boom. Similarly, sprung saddles have been around for a long time; those and pneumatic tyres *were* the suspension fitted to the vast majority of bikes since the late 19th century. You only need more if you're riding on pretty rough terrain. Something less obvious to the casual observer is aluminium wheel rims, and brake pads designed to work with them in tribochemistry. They're much more tolerant of wet weather than steel rims, in terms of braking performance. I have visible scars on my chin from an effective failure of brakes in wet weather, so you can imagine this matters to me. Another crucial innovation I think you missed is bar-mounted shifters. The traditional position was on the down-tube. Imagine having to take a hand off from steering to change gear... Disc brakes are supposed to be even more tolerant of wet/muddy conditions, but are also more vulnerable to damage (especially on the front wheel) and require a different dropout design and stronger forks to work safely (again, especially on the front wheel). I've heard the cable-operated version is also difficult to modulate. But I would consider a rear hydraulic disc brake paired with a conventional rim brake at the front. For now I'm satisfied with two rim brakes with Kool-Stop pads. For extreme conditions, Shimano's heat-sunk drum brakes look worth considering, but I haven't tried them. Don't count on aluminium frames being lightweight, either. My hybrid bike is aluminium and somewhere north of 17kg; it's not too difficult to find cromoly or even manganese-steel frames significantly lighter than that. But the weight of the bike doesn't matter anywhere near as much as many people think - unless you need to carry it.
finally some good stuff! been wanting igh with high gear range and and relatively low amount of gears for long time. i really hate when igh has too many too similar gears.
My favorite wheel in the winter is a coaster single speed. It handles the winter well, but I do have to service it at the beginning, mid and late winter in order for it to function well. I have always ridden all winter. Everyday and every winter. I am excited about this gearbox,but I wonder
I hadn't seen that 3x3 Nine Hub yet. I've been slowly putting together a list for a new Electric Fixie style bike based around the Bafang M315 motor(100nm torque max output) using a Gates belt drive. Think I might reconsider the Nexus-5E I had on my list for that 3x3 Nine instead.
you didn’t even mention Nuvinci…an affordable rear hub, that has proven resilience. have had it on my bafang powered mid drive bike, and is an absolute monster for hill climbing
regarding the revolute - Seems strange to have radial lacing on a disc brake internal gear hub. Imagine some 250kg+ loaded e cargo bikes with 200mm+ rotors and 4 pot brakes would generate very powerful braking forces..
I want to see an Emotor with a gear box designed together to go at highway speeds. 55 to 65 mph. They are coming. The frame, rims and tires will need to be beefed up a little. I ride a 1000watt Trike, 48 Volt 25 AH Battery. I use it everyday for transportation, shopping and recreation. If cars were not on the roads, this is the form of daily transport most folks would use. Cheap, easy to and FUN! My trike has a 30 mile range without pedalling. Top speed of 30. Did I say how.much FUN IT IS!? It not a Harley Davidaon but I BUILT IT from sratch and I LOVE IT. I've been thinking about these gear boxes since I built it and it seems a natural evolution for real life transport around town. I'm no tree hugger but this form of transpo is as GREEN AS IT GETS!
Helical gears are NOT less efficient. You do have to take up the thrust load some how, but that's generally not a problem, since the ball bearings that you would support the shaft with can take ~20% of their radial load rating as axial load. I've read numbers that state helical and straight cut gear are the same, and i've also seen numbers claiming a ~1% increase in efficiency for helical gears of straight spur gears.
Unfortunately I think you are wrong. I wish helical gears were as efficient as straight cut because I don’t like the sound of gear whine but I don’t like throwing away efficiency either!
Any opinions on doing something crazy like combining a pinion gear box with a rear gearbox (I'm thinking Nuvinci)? Also, any suggestions for heavy weight capacity rims for cargo or bike packing bikes with heavy riders?
Something I've not heard about in years are the benefits of the elliptical drivetrains. There were 2 types, elliptical chainrings and an experimental internal drive at the bottom bracket called a select-a-cam. Are these practical at all for standard bicycles, ebikes or bikes with newer style gearboxes on the rear, such as the Pinion drive? I'm thinking Pinion drive on the rear and select -a-cam in the bottom bracket. Has this even been considered? I used to have elliptical chainrings on an old Iron horse bike I had from the early 1990's. I felt they gave an advantage in the pedal stroke. Thanks, Dave
Please do a video about retrofit "bottom bracket gears" to allow for 1x system Schlumpf Drive and Kappstein Doppio gearbox and MagneticDays Binary Gears
Have you looked at the Shift Drive System by Veer. Might be n interesting possibility on the middrive/motor/transmission combo. I can’t find any videos talking about it yet!
This is such an awesome way to jack up the price of bikes! I mean look , you have multiple precision engineered parts. Excellent craftsmanship during assembly. Without a doubt, spectacular performance when pushed hard. And GAURENTEED repair work for years since most folks would try to repair this with a butter knife and vice grips, and socket set from Walmart.. Awesome business plan from manufacturers... Sadly i believe most riders will not benefit from this, and its a Unicorn gimmick. Personally I like them very much.🚴and look forward to the wave of used gearboxes coming that we gearheads can take advantage of ..
@@patrickherzog6520 Mint 1989 Honda Accord/ turbo 2.7L , B series manual trans w/straight cut gears, hydro /slipper clutch, 4.42 ratio LSD..,more. Pristine ,2003 Buick Park Ave Ultra, for daily driver. Investigate what happened to the auto industry when automatic transmissions were first utilized. Many refused. I didnt say I disliked the tech! I commented on the price increase many will spend for an IMPROVED component, that will double a mid level bikes price. Not everyone has giant chicken thighs and can sustain 600 watts uphill , even with a massive ratio gearbox, it just doesn't work that way.,,, I wish it did.>>> My two cents, and hope you have a great day!😁
@@frosthoe the Honda is cool, we were driving them too, back in the days, I switched because I felt I spend too much on spare parts for worn chains and wheels, now it just works in combination with a belt, its nice, and yes I like tech, but it awe at steam engines and appriciate low hassel helpers and bikes, I am just hoping we will all be riding more bike and less car. All the best
@@patrickherzog6520 Im gonna say bank on drone/dirigibles. Picture a minivan sized drone, that utilizes a derigible (Blimp) for negative buoyancy , increasing efficiency and added benefit of safety. These things can cruise at 85 Mph , or much slower for massive efficiency. Add solar film tech to the bladder surface and it can (slowly) recharge itself.
What is the efficiency levels of these modern gearboxes ? In the days of Sturmney Archer epicyclic gear box; 3 speed 1st gear was down to approx 85%, 2nd was direct drive and 3rd about 92%. THe 5 speed had even greater energy losses.
The hub with the highest efficiency and big gear range is a Rohloff. It's about 94.5% efficient on average. Pinion gearboxes and Shimano Alfine hubs are a bit over 90%. The Sturmey Archer 3-speed is a bit higher than your numbers according to this test (92%+ in all gears): www.ihpva.org/HParchive/PDF/hp52-2001.pdf
Been running an Alfine 7 IGH in a 1.600W 160Nm midmotor ebike for 4 years with great results Find it best for the buck option by far, but you dont include Alfine in your comparison Its no longer available?
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Will you be switching to a gearbox or internal gear hub on your next bike? 🤔
Love your videos and it is great they are coming out with these new options. I have considered a geared hub for my old Softride daily commuter, but concluded it's easier to just use 7 speed derailleurs/cassettes/chains which are dirt cheap and I can replace every year.
If I was building a custom touring bike, I would definitely consider a geared hub, but not sure that will ever happen
I have one! I'm also considering building an ebike with one. I like belt drives as I live in a place with some funky weather, and I generally just like the look. But as I'd be stuck with a single speed otherwise, I do like IGH's
I am considering the Classified hub for my next road bike.
I just got a Pinion C1.12 and it's perfect for terrain with >20% hills and heavy load (San Francisco). I regularly use the lowest and highest gears. If anything, I want more than 600% gear range. Maybe I should add a Rohloff hub. :)
Yes... I really want a Pinion gearbox.
About 40 years ago, I owned a hub similar to the classified hub, produced by Sachs in Germany. (Sachs Orbit HT)It was a perfect fit at the time for my touring bike, because it combined 2 hub gears with 6 derailer gears and a drum break. This combination worked way better than rim break bikes at the time. Durability was realy impressive and maintenance cost very low. Only the shifters aged rather quickly. Unfotunately it was not percieved well enough to continue production. Over all, one of my favorite bikes, used as a daily driver for many years. I wish classified more luck.
9:53 - One thing that motor manufacturers really need to do is get standardized shapes and sizes, as that will make manufacturing cheaper. But that's not nearly as important as standardizing batteries shapes, sizes and interfaces!
I bought a Rize MD (mid drive) 6 weeks ago and now the rear cassette is damaged. I tried to buy a new one locally, but guess what, the rear hub is unique in the world and no standard cassette will fit it. I contacted Rize and they want a video to show the "problem" and pictures to show the damage. It's a huge issue.
Standarisation to make sometching cheaper? No my friend, it works like "they are paying so it's not too expencive..."
@@andrzejfabianski4948 I never said it'd be cheaper for the consumer, though I'd argue the standardization of things like AA, AAA etc. batteries and the charge plug on cell phones made those cheap commodities for consumers.
Cheaper frame manufacturing is a competitive advantage for the OEMs that end up taking advantage of it, because they can increase their profit margin.
Amazing depth of information here. I'm really excted for the future of bikes - light EV bikes with hub gears makes cycling far more excessible. I was recently bike touring in France and it was inspiring to see so many older, clearly unfit people enjoying long trips on e-bikes. It was also obvious that couples were using them to 'even up' their cycling ability so a weaker rider could keep up with her partner without a problem.
The major issue with e bike touring is recharging. It can't be done simply in most cases.
The Classified hub does sound super interesting because it sounds like it would get past so many issues and also open up compatibility with many quite affordable groupsets. The catch is that it is so prohibitively expensive. It's obscene how much it costs, and a lot of that could have been remedied through making a mechanical/hydraulic shifting version, and using otherwise standard layouts that don't require you to buy very specific wheelsets.
It's also way too heavy for its target market - road / gravel race bikes (it's definitely not intended for adventure / bikepacking / e-bikes). Too much weight on the rear wheel. Plus the thru axle battery / electronics / antenna are just begging to get smashed.
Hopefully it comes down in price… there is huge potential savings in cassette price and selection ($30 USD for an 11-28 vs $120 for a 11-50) and also not having to spec a long cage derailleur with capacity for those large cogs.
@@pratikpramanik7782 No. You have to use their special cassette, which has a big cut out for the mechanism at the axle. The cassettes are quite a bit more expensive than standard ones, as they have to be machined from a solid piece of metal (no individual cogs). I think this is one reason why the system is so expensive, not only to acquire, but also to use.
sram dualdrive and sturmey-archer CS-RF3
I've got a touring/bikepacking bike built around the c1.12 pinion and love it. I'm definitely a convert to internal gearing. I'm now really tempted to go through the work to convert my commuter to a cheap Shimano Alfine. I'm happy to see more companies developing new gear hub options. The ebike market space seems like a perfect place to explore their potential and get more gearboxes on the road
I want to put a Rolhoff on mine
I would stay away from the Alfine. Nexus 8 does the same job, with better reliability , less maintenance and cost.
@@maddox0110 thank you for your recommendation! I havent made any moves yet but will definitely consider the nexus for my dream commuter bike
@Shep Raynham going internal gear hub or pinion does add weight for sure. I have never ridden any of the gear hubs, so I can't speak directly to your experience. The pinion weighs 1.5lbs more then nx eagle, however I'm not as concerned for touring/bikepacking. I am much happier to have greater gear range and more peace of mind, and I'm going to be putting on ~15-20lbs of stuff on the bike anyway. I have ridden the bike on gravel group rides and for that I'm a little slower but I'm more apt to blame my fatter tires or lack of fitness as bigger factors. The pinion does have a really slow engagement which could be annoying, so I bought a fast engagement hub to try to offset that some.
MTB's will go internal gears. It just makes sense, no more broken derailleurs.
Great overview! And nice to see the leap in innovations, esp. for simpler everyday e-bike drivesystems (or MTB/downhill, as shown in the clips) The electronic automation of Pinion is awesome!
Thank you for your excellent reviews. I love learning about these new gearbox technology refinements.
Thanks - it's fun sharing this information!
I have both hubs. And they are game changers. Every bike I bought with these hubs have hydraulic brakes for a reason
Love your vids. And how passionate and informed you are about bikes and cool new ways to make them.
It's always fun for me to research and present information about interesting bike things. Glad you like them!
Gear boxes and eMTBs will be a massive improvement over current drivetrains. Looking forward to them
One to mention is Schlumpfdrive - seems more popular in the recumbent world, at least every time I see mention of them it's in reference to a recumbent. But they look to be another slick / well engineered 2 speed front mech replacer, though the shifting is pretty different. I actually think it looks really cool for a crankset for a single speed that then becomes a stealthy two speed with no extra cables.
That was timely, and in depth with expert terminology,thanks
I have a Pinion c1.9 gearbox. 9 speeds over 568% I find perfectly sufficient.
I suspect that small gear steps is a tradition inherited from early derailleurs where big steps were difficult and from racing where optimum cadence was important. Also small steps make gearboxes more expensive and so more profitable.
It makes a good city bike. But for touring I've drifted back to my lighter more efficient 44/32/22 11/34 derailleur bike. Partly because I find the twist grip difficult with thumb joint pain. Partly because the Pinion bike is heavy.
Been working on the Shimano Hubs for along time and have got around that grease thing by replacing the Shimano grease that doesn't hold up to water and especially salt water with a mixture of Lucas Red n Tacky and a good mineral oil based automatic transmission fluid. About 1/3 grease that helps keep the fluid in the hub and it holds up to salt water better. I vote ever thing in it and squirt some extra into the hub shell before closing it up that way the extra stuff is continuously bathing the internal gears inside this lasts a long time several years even with heavy use still should be overhaul 3 to 5 thousand miles depending on riding conditions use the last overhaul to gauge it. It's a lot easier to clean up at the next overhaul and doesn't mess with the shifting and stays stable at low temperatures. The only problem with this is it with void the warranty but the hub will stay in service for decades. ATF is good stuff automatic transmissions last for decades if that fluid is changed on schedule BMW even used it in their manual transmissions for a long time because it's good stuff. Just clean up what leaks out during your routine mantainance and cleaning (a little bike wash or diluted dish soap to clean it up and leamon pledge to repel dust and make it shine just keep it off the braking surface 95% alcohol with clean that surface when you're done pretty well anyway. The bargon polish doesn't work as well... from experience but a clean bike is a happy bike and happy mechanic too so clean it before taking it to one and you will get better service
I've been running 2 Rohloff hubs for close to 10 years for mountain biking only. I am actually interested most in the 3x3 hub since I usually want larger gear drops. 90% of the time I find myself dropping or gaining 2 to 5 gears at time with my Rohloff hub. I rarely only increase or decrease by 1 gear. The range increase also is a bit welcome. I may consider it for my next bike but I want to know the efficiency across all of it's gears.
Great summary! Thank you for all your well researched videos!
My pleasure!
Revonte is a system based out of Finland that combines an ebike mid-drive motor with an integrated automatic transmission.
All-to is a small Korean startup which is focusing on making an inexpensive gearbox system for pedal bikes, that can be mass manufactured at low cost.
I have been using Schlumpf bb drives for years for dingle speed and cassettes. I now use them on my front hub drop bar 700c/40+c bikes that don't use PAS just a throttle controlled infinitely variable cruise function. My Speed Drive @ 1.65 to 1 with a 27t chainring will pedal effectively up to 40kmh with an 11t rear cog. My High Speed Drive will pedal effectively up to 55kmh with its 2.25 to 1 ratio also used with a Direct Drive front hub motor. My friend the other day on his Class 1 Giant eMTB accused me of riding a motorcycle granted I don't have any speed cutoff like his does.
My solution is a 1000w 48v front hub motor, Schlumpf mtn drive and a Rohloff. Nice to see all that will be integrated to one system.
Great round-up. The Classified Powershift Hub looks very interesting.
Any day a cyclingabout video comes out is a good day. I want more gearboxes for MTB. I tire of cleaning gears after every ride. I just had to spend $120 to replace 4 chains across my fleet and I'll need a couple of new cassettes at my next chain replacement. A Zerode Kaitipo is my dream bike.
nice choice
That is the exact reason why I chose an old school hub motor (but direct drive) for my electric bike. Not to put more strain on the drive chain than necessary as pedal forces and motor forces are transferred completely independent to the wheels. The issue with crank motors are that they put a lot of strain on the chain and gearbox - and I think I change chain on my regular bike enough already. And I chose with closed chain box too. That really has helped - only lubed the chain on the ebike so far.
Perhaps if there's nice low loss low maintenance crank gearboxes which are build sturdier and using larger sprockets (to lessen strain on chain and perhaps a tooth belt instead of chain) then it might be worth considering. The current option with regular Shimano 7 speed gearbox and crank motors I'm not a fan of. For a start I don't think the Shimano 7 speed boxes are as robust or low loss as the old Sram (3 speed) boxes which really could take a beating.
The 3x3 and the hub1 are interesting to me because my wife is disabled and I have been designing an off-road wheelchair for her, and those hubs operate in reverse. I had resigned to building something with some massive motors as that is the only way to achieve enough torque to handle a 30% incline and achieve more than 4 mph. These allow me to use more reasonably sized components. Ie I don’t have to use motors designed for cars anymore to get my desired torque. The motors I was considering were qsmotor 8kw hub motors. Now I can use mid drive style motors.
Thank you.
Hi Alee, I hope that Africa is treating you well! I just ordered a 3x3 Nine wheel kit thru Old Spokes Home for my Cannondale Motera Neo 3 FS ebike. Wish I could use a belt drive but this'll be a good step up from the 1x12 stock setup. This bike has replaced my stolen Priority 600x with Pinion and belt drive. It allows me to keep up the Dhruba who is 26 years younger and has bionic motor legs!
What an INCREDIBLY INFORMATIVE video. Thanks SOOOOO much!!!
Still very prohibitive money wise here in Brazil. I'll stick with cassettes and derailleurs.
Not just Brazil, they are very expensive, period. I agree about cassettes and derailleurs
Check out whether the Alfine 8 suits your needs! I'm a big fan of that $199 hub: ruclips.net/video/qf9tFJFXV5o/видео.html
I like the front derailleurs removed from bikes, and I like the trend to 11 gear (or whatever) rear derailleurs. I don't see much need for gearboxes on the general use bicycle. Though, if they became superior in most of the critical ways, and cheap enough, they will probably take over.
Metoo#
In the US I find them expensive also. I’m starting to save for a set up. Will take about 3 years. By that time the market will stabilize and I’ll have a shop to install it.
Brilliantly done, as always. I love IGH's but only for human powered bicycles.
Why is that?
I'd love to know, too! I'm currently thinking about buying a nice bike, not even sure if battery or leg only powered though lol. Only certain that I want a drive belt, so derailours won't be an option.
@@jacksonbaker353 One word: charging. Pushing your foot down is incredibly simple, and this simplicity is often the reason why I go for a ride at all.
@@au1317 Charging the battery is too complicated you mean?
@@frafra224 Not too complicated but seriously inconvenient
To me, any gearbox requiring a specific frame modification is a non-starter. 3x3 Nine is the one I’ll be watching, mainly for its ability to handle very high torque from screamer mid-drives like the CYC X1 Pro Gen 2.
My fully automatic Nuvici continuous gear has worked perfectly for over a year. Although it requires electric power and therefore can be used on electric bikes only, it makes cycling so much easier that I have usually the motor switched off.
I once had a freewheel hub for my roadbike that was perfectly silent when coasting. Having a tough time finding that now, but these new advances are worth looking into as well
Short extensions can be added to drop bars to mount a mechanical twist shifter. In using a gear hub on a drop bar bike, this worked for me as most of my riding was city, utility and in the drops for best braking control. Commuting in a city/urban environment is a sprint being stops or big slowdowns. Even on the trails, one has to contend with peds, peds with dogs, kids and clueless other riders in the bike lanes.
The "sprint between stops" has got better on some routes where the traffic lights are timed to a speed bicyclists can maintain without having to be super fit.
The options available now with electric shifting seem to offer a big savings in difficulty in set up (Rohloff), vulnerability (Alfine which shares some of the deraileur vulnerabilities to drive side crashes), lower maintanance (adjusting, cleaning, replacing cables and housings and lubing cable systems) and prefered shifter styles, quick fire button styles or drop bar brake/shifer combos).
Thank you. Great update on available gearbox technology.
This will be my third season on my trail bike with a rohloff and gates carbon drive… very happy with it!
>Until recently, Rohloff was the only gear hub option that you needed to know about.
I lol'd so hard. Probably will share that wise thought with my commuter friends riding shimano nexuses and alfines for year all year long including snowy winters so that they could have a good laugh too. And yeah, zero problems with even okayish grease in temperatures up to -25C. Doesn't get a lot colder than that in here. Also most, if not all problems with grease lubrication come from the hygroscopic shimano bentonite (pet litterbox filling) grease which can suck moisture even from air, not to mention riding it in wet conditions. Just swap it out for some actual grease and you'll be a-ok.
>more common oil lubrication system
In the price range of over 1000$ maybe. A real minority compared to 3-4-5-7-8-9-11 shimano/sram/sturmey-archer gear hubs which all run on grease.
All this stuff for people who can throw around tens of thousands at a whim is kinda cool (how you can make a quite mediocre thing, slap FOR EBIKES!!! on it and get away with pricing it three times higher), but it's really sad to not see any development in the non-sporty direction. Commuters are also people and they need simple and cheap gear hubs, not a ten thousand buck e-bike that can dish out 300Nm of torque. Though nobody thinks about them. Kinda sad.
Thank you for another excellent analysis. Cheers!
Thanks for watching!
I press like before watching cyclingabout videos.
Thanks - it really helps to recommend my videos to others!
Awesome overview!
the trouble with the Classified hub IMO is that MTBs are often now designed for ~32t chainrings. One of those with say a 36t would give a broader range in both directions. This is a gripe with frame designers mind, not the hubs. Also these days large cassettes can be quite light, my chinese 11-46 is like 370g (sure a low end sram is over double that...)
Gearbox development sure is interesting though, I look forward to when they're comparable in efficiency as they sure seem a better system than derailleurs
It’s exciting to see the bike industry finally showing signs of going in the direction that I’ve always been wanting to see. It feels like it’s been stuck in a rut for decades.
good joke...🤣🤣😅
For my needs I'm happy in the rut tbh. I can understand some top sportsman may want this but I wouldn't want to be forced into over complicated technology that takes away from enjoyment of the simplicity of a more traditional bike.
@@argonaut6386 Sport cycling is very much entrenched in the stagnant bike industry and nothing to do with these gear systems.
@@argonaut6386 derailleur drivetrains are incredibly fragile and require a lot of maintenance, especially if you do all-weather riding.
Most hubs lack the range to do the 10 to 15% uphill climb as well as the 45kph cruise with tailwind.
Anything modern that actually works will bring more people back to using bicycles in my opinion.
I'd love to see Bosch ebike motors paired with Pinion gearboxes, as an integrated unit like the Intradrive.
Would be very big and chunky.
Continuously variable transmission using planetary gear integrates more easily with ebike's motor.
Valeo!
Great gearbox coverage. Keep up the good work.
OSO 👍
Great to see innovation flourishing in the e-bike world. But like you, Alee, I'm most excited by the Classified MTB hub. It could genuinely shake up the 1x12 hegemony.
I’ve got a Rholoff on my recumbent touring trike where the unsprung weight isn’t a concern and the ability to shift while stopped is critical… it’s awesome! I seem to recall that Nicolai had been working on a MTB design (the G-Boxx?) that was going to mount a Rholoff as a mid-drive almost 20 years ago now. Wonder what ever came of that?
As an electric bike rider, I'm pretty much done with gearboxes. I always ride everywhere in the same gear. I always go in the lowest assist level. If I needed help, I would turn up the electric assist. In turn, I'd like a very cheap and resilient single chain system rather than any gearbox. BTW, I want my motor mid-drive. If there is a product I'd like, it would be a bullet-proof, high-performance, cheap replacement for the Bafang BBSHD. No, I won't pay someone a million $/Eu/L for it.
I think I might start building some
Either 1 speed hub 3 speed or an 8 speed for MTB aficionados
Do you know what e-bike makers will integrate the 3x3 in their range? Thank you.
Great overview of a fast evolving segment. Seeing drive belts made wonder if anyone has ever tried to develop a breakable belt? If worked would greatly expand the gearbox frame combo options
Yes, the Veer belts are breakable. But you should ideally have a belt-specific frame anyway, which ensures the rear triangle is stiff enough to keep the belt running nicely.
Not rolling backward is a pain with you have to lift the rear of the bike to get it out because it will not roll in reverse.
I was looking to upgrade my recumbent trike drivetrain this coming January. That last one from Classified would solve so many issues with machines that have THREE chain lengths worth of chain. No front derailleur is a huge deal but with three chain lengths, the cross-chaining is pretty harsh. Having a smaller cog set in back with the internal granny gear(s) would be a God-send. I might wait a while longer now that I know these are coming!
I’ve got the Rholoff on my Catrike Speed recumbent trike and highly recommend it. The ability to shift while stopped, shift under load and run a nearly fixed chain (I’m using the Rholoff tensioner) are nice on any bike but are massive improvements on a trike. Expensive, yes. However, the long-tested reliability and well-established parts availability are major benefits when compared to some of the newer offerings, iMHO. Enjoy your project!
@@grantandre79 I know. My trike is going on its fifth season of 2,500 miles. So, things are getting worn out. I'm also getting older and those Bosche motors are looking tasty too! Patience seems to be the best bet for now. Just getting the Dumont tuned up for the season. Maybe I can make the third derailleur last through the year (not likely but I can always hope). The Rholoff hub is a great drivetrain component. To do that, I need a new rolling frame though which means a new custom build from ground up. That's likely my path forward but I'll probably just get the kit with the motor and be done with upgrades for another five years.
That last hub sounds awesome
I will stick to my front derailleur, for a small fraction of the cost
Awesome video as always.
It's about time they're starting this race!
Harrumph! 🙂 So slick and neat and clean... This is fantasy biking.
I'm skint and live in the north of England; sold my car a decade ago, can't afford buses, taxis or trains, so cycling is my only way of getting around besides walking.
My bike is 15 years old and worth about £25 [twenty-five]. It's a sad old donkey with add-on racks and panniers and weighs about 50 lbs [23 kg] unladen. It can carry another 50 lbs of 'stuff'. I built a 2-wheeled trailer from salvaged scrap (total cost £8 [eight]) big enough to carry 6 bags of groceries. I ride 70 essential miles a week. I gave up riding for fun years ago.
Any fancy bike left unattended around here - chained up and padlocked outside a supermarket, for instance - will be gone in 60 seconds. I'm not kidding. Lads in vans have mates on foot who tour the streets and car parks, looking for 'tasty' gear. (This includes motorbikes; the vans have hoists and winches in the back.)
Mobile phones, GPS and Google street maps (or whatever) make things ridiculously easy. Once alerted by their scouts, the lads in vans descend like vultures in hi-vis jackets, armed with bolt-cutters and angle-grinders. A £5,000 regular bike or e-bike (or a £20,000 motorbike) would be nicked in no more than a minute.
If it's got a tracker unit fitted - maybe built permanently into the frame - the bike will be stripped of components whilst still in the back of the van; the expensive shiny bits will be for sale on eBay within the hour, and the tracker-unit/frame will be swimming with the fishes in the nearest canal before the cops have finished their doughnuts.
Posh bikes look great in the adverts, but they're always being ridden, aren't they. Surrounded by gorgeous people. Shiny teeth. Lycra. There's always someone in the saddle. You don't see them outside Sainsbury's with a dog peeing on the rear hub or some jealous Stella-swilling duck-wit sticking nails into the tyres out of spite.
I'd be scared even to stop at traffic lights on a nice bike; people are mugged for their cash, their shoes, their watches, and their phones, so riding a bike worth more than £100 [one-hundred] is asking for trouble.
Fortunately, like e-bikes, this new tech is so ludicrously expensive that I'll never be able to afford it. Heck, I couldn't even afford to insure it - the annual premium would be 10x the value of my current setup.
Yay for poverty! 😁
Great video; I look forward to trying some of these one day. For now, I'm loving my Enviolo CVT hub, despite not having an e-bike. I guess you don't know how much efficiency you're losing until you try something more efficient?!
Correct.
Most human senses are very bad as absolute "measuring instruments" and can do only comparison/relative measurements against something else.
So if all you've ever had is Enviolo hub bike, your senses literally can't know the difference.
Myself bought Yamaha PW motor Haibike in end of 2018 and that was clearly more than little draggy when motor isn't assisting (compared to normal bikes) and reaching 30 km/h on flat ground was hard.
Now with new Bosch CX Gen4 motor bike I'm back to reaching 35 km/h speeds with freewheel decoupling cranks completely from motor.
I've had enviolo (NuVinci) hubs for over a decade now. The efficiency is a very complex thing, it tends to drop the further you go from the middle 1:1 ratio. Also drops with increased torque or power. Near 1:1 ratio and at sensible power output it can be quite efficient, the sort of conditions you likely spend most time riding at.
All very nice apart from the cost and weight of these things, essentially ebikes are turning into lightweight motor bikes where as derailleurs are lightweight, efficient and cheap.
So fantastic these new inventions, but I still love the sounds of my i9 hydra hub.
I’m doing my best to hold out for this technology before I buy another MTB! Thanks for the information and well produced video.
Me too! but I want it nOW!
Very exciting. Finally a gearhub for e bikes. For now I have my spare derailleurs but I will run out of them
This was very informative. Thank-you very much.
Always awesome. I'm not on board with the E bikes yet but am saving for the P1.18 titanium box.
Awesome overview, this is timely considering I am contemplating building a mid-drive e-bike from one of the bikes in my fleet...
Which hub would you recommend for a trike powered by a bbs02 bafang motor? Trike will be used predominantly for touring.
Thanks, Sam
With the classified dual mode hub, you could use it in combination with 2 chain ring up front that you flick the chain onto by hand for when you add an electric motor or not. I think it's gonna be a useful & cool tech
That's what I thought
Just switch the chain or chain ring
Just purchased a Specialied Vado 5.0 with Envielo igh and auto shifting. I had already bought a Priority Current with igh and belt but don't like twist shifters like it and most igh's have. The auto on the Specialized has the same Brose motor and looks to be the same setup that the newer Harley Davidson Serial 1's are using. You can set your desired cadence level to 7 different levels on the fly and also to what gear it downshifts to when stopped. Would be nice to have more settings on the fly like changing to manual electronic shifting if desired. Not sure I can ever go back to a derailleur.
As a biker and cyclist I can see the cycling world adopt more and more features from the motorcycle world. A gearbox with neutral, oil changes, disc brakes, tubeless tyres etc!
Additionally such a bicycle can cost as much as a real motorcycle ;-)
@@simonm1447 True, some super naked or sports bikes with cutting edge tech seem like a bargain compared to high end road bicycles 😄
Eh. I still like my 3 x 7 derailleur gears. Hydraulic disc brakes though, they've been great. But anytime there's any sort of drivetrain stuff that pops up (years ago it was the solid shaft instead of a chain - where did that go?) it usually smells like snake oil. None of it can top the efficiency of derailleur gears, it's like trying to reinvent the wheel.
In my 45 years of bicycling, here are technologies I found that actually made a difference (a short list)
1. Fat tires (we can ride places where we previously couldn't)
2. Suspension, esp. front (ditto)
3. Flat, wide handlebarsbars (more stability and control)
4. Dropper posts (safer, more stable descents)
5. Modern, stretched-out mtb geometry (ditto)
6. Aluminum (lightweight bikes at a reasonable cost)
Everything else..
.meh
ps. I am on the edge about disk brakes
I came back to cycling for the first time since a time when only rim brakes were available and I think disc brakes are really neat, especially hydraulics. I also think tubeless should be on your list.
Straight handlebars are not exactly *new* technology. Old bikes not designed for racing (or to ape racing bikes) normally had either straight or gull-wing (nearly straight) bars. They never really went away on city bikes, it's just that drop handlebars became trendy with the 1970s bike-boom. Similarly, sprung saddles have been around for a long time; those and pneumatic tyres *were* the suspension fitted to the vast majority of bikes since the late 19th century. You only need more if you're riding on pretty rough terrain.
Something less obvious to the casual observer is aluminium wheel rims, and brake pads designed to work with them in tribochemistry. They're much more tolerant of wet weather than steel rims, in terms of braking performance. I have visible scars on my chin from an effective failure of brakes in wet weather, so you can imagine this matters to me.
Another crucial innovation I think you missed is bar-mounted shifters. The traditional position was on the down-tube. Imagine having to take a hand off from steering to change gear...
Disc brakes are supposed to be even more tolerant of wet/muddy conditions, but are also more vulnerable to damage (especially on the front wheel) and require a different dropout design and stronger forks to work safely (again, especially on the front wheel). I've heard the cable-operated version is also difficult to modulate. But I would consider a rear hydraulic disc brake paired with a conventional rim brake at the front. For now I'm satisfied with two rim brakes with Kool-Stop pads. For extreme conditions, Shimano's heat-sunk drum brakes look worth considering, but I haven't tried them.
Don't count on aluminium frames being lightweight, either. My hybrid bike is aluminium and somewhere north of 17kg; it's not too difficult to find cromoly or even manganese-steel frames significantly lighter than that. But the weight of the bike doesn't matter anywhere near as much as many people think - unless you need to carry it.
Combination Brake / Shifters handlebar unit & long arm V brakes go top end of the list
I couldn't care less about any of those. SA XL DRUM brakes go 30,000+ miles, as good as any disc.
@@GordoGambler I understand, You pound the pavement on your 1957 Bianchi, but kitted-out with "SA XL DRUM"
finally some good stuff! been wanting igh with high gear range and and relatively low amount of gears for long time. i really hate when igh has too many too similar gears.
My favorite wheel in the winter is a coaster single speed. It handles the winter well, but I do have to service it at the beginning, mid and late winter in order for it to function well. I have always ridden all winter. Everyday and every winter. I am excited about this gearbox,but I wonder
I hadn't seen that 3x3 Nine Hub yet. I've been slowly putting together a list for a new Electric Fixie style bike based around the Bafang M315 motor(100nm torque max output) using a Gates belt drive. Think I might reconsider the Nexus-5E I had on my list for that 3x3 Nine instead.
Great! Would an internal gear work well on a touring bike? Thanks.
i really like last one. interesting i was expecting it would go in middle but having it in rear axle is interesting. i wonder what will be price...
I think it makes sense to put the gearbox inside the hub motor , even a two speed would be very nice .
I have autism and I envisioned this a few months ago. This technology can power motorcycles style bicycles eventually.
are we going to see a CVT Gearbox with a option to select our comfy crank speed?
Revonte looks exciting tech
you didn’t even mention Nuvinci…an affordable rear hub, that has proven resilience. have had it on my bafang powered mid drive bike, and is an absolute monster for hill climbing
Im new to IGH.. is the 3x3 better at climbing hills off road or pave roads compared to the rolhloff. Thanks
That was excellent thank You just the insight I needed :)
regarding the revolute - Seems strange to have radial lacing on a disc brake internal gear hub. Imagine some 250kg+ loaded e cargo bikes with 200mm+ rotors and 4 pot brakes would generate very powerful braking forces..
I want to see an Emotor with a gear box designed together to go at highway speeds. 55 to 65 mph. They are coming. The frame, rims and tires will need to be beefed up a little. I ride a 1000watt Trike, 48 Volt 25 AH Battery. I use it everyday for transportation, shopping and recreation. If cars were not on the roads, this is the form of daily transport most folks would use. Cheap, easy to and FUN! My trike has a 30 mile range without pedalling. Top speed of 30. Did I say how.much FUN IT IS!? It not a Harley Davidaon but I BUILT IT from sratch and I LOVE IT. I've been thinking about these gear boxes since I built it and it seems a natural evolution for real life transport around town. I'm no tree hugger but this form of transpo is as GREEN AS IT GETS!
I wonder which clever engineer can combine recupuration, gearbox, mid-bike e-motor (like all e-motorcycles can do)?
MASHAALLAH khub valo product video review.....!
Здорово! Молодцы! Очень рад видеть.
Great research. Thanks for sharing!
Very nice coverage! Thank you
Excellent video presentation.
Helical gears are NOT less efficient. You do have to take up the thrust load some how, but that's generally not a problem, since the ball bearings that you would support the shaft with can take ~20% of their radial load rating as axial load. I've read numbers that state helical and straight cut gear are the same, and i've also seen numbers claiming a ~1% increase in efficiency for helical gears of straight spur gears.
this ☝️ gear is interesting
Unfortunately I think you are wrong. I wish helical gears were as efficient as straight cut because I don’t like the sound of gear whine but I don’t like throwing away efficiency either!
pinion's smartshift electric shifting IS available on non-electric bikes. priority's 600HXT hardtail mountain bike has it.
Any opinions on doing something crazy like combining a pinion gear box with a rear gearbox (I'm thinking Nuvinci)?
Also, any suggestions for heavy weight capacity rims for cargo or bike packing bikes with heavy riders?
Something I've not heard about in years are the benefits of the elliptical drivetrains. There were 2 types, elliptical chainrings and an experimental internal drive at the bottom bracket called a select-a-cam. Are these practical at all for standard bicycles, ebikes or bikes with newer style gearboxes on the rear, such as the Pinion drive? I'm thinking Pinion drive on the rear and select -a-cam in the bottom bracket. Has this even been considered? I used to have elliptical chainrings on an old Iron horse bike I had from the early 1990's. I felt they gave an advantage in the pedal stroke. Thanks, Dave
Please do a video about retrofit "bottom bracket gears" to allow for 1x system
Schlumpf Drive and Kappstein Doppio gearbox and MagneticDays Binary Gears
Have you looked at the Shift Drive System by Veer. Might be n interesting possibility on the middrive/motor/transmission combo. I can’t find any videos talking about it yet!
thanks for sharing! it's really sad that so few channels are sharing more on these technologies.
Been waiting for a decent ebike with gearbox for years, looks like the time is coming soon to buy an E enduro bike that won't break!
Automatic gearbox on a bike. I never thought about it but now I want it.
This is such an awesome way to jack up the price of bikes! I mean look , you have multiple precision engineered parts. Excellent craftsmanship during assembly. Without a doubt, spectacular performance when pushed hard. And GAURENTEED repair work for years since most folks would try to repair this with a butter knife and vice grips, and socket set from Walmart.. Awesome business plan from manufacturers... Sadly i believe most riders will not benefit from this, and its a Unicorn gimmick. Personally I like them very much.🚴and look forward to the wave of used gearboxes coming that we gearheads can take advantage of ..
what kind of car are you driving?
@@patrickherzog6520 Mint 1989 Honda Accord/ turbo 2.7L , B series manual trans w/straight cut gears, hydro /slipper clutch, 4.42 ratio LSD..,more. Pristine ,2003 Buick Park Ave Ultra, for daily driver. Investigate what happened to the auto industry when automatic transmissions were first utilized. Many refused.
I didnt say I disliked the tech! I commented on the price increase many will spend for an IMPROVED component, that will double a mid level bikes price. Not everyone has giant chicken thighs and can sustain 600 watts uphill , even with a massive ratio gearbox, it just doesn't work that way.,,, I wish it did.>>> My two cents, and hope you have a great day!😁
@@frosthoe the Honda is cool, we were driving them too, back in the days, I switched because I felt I spend too much on spare parts for worn chains and wheels, now it just works in combination with a belt, its nice, and yes I like tech, but it awe at steam engines and appriciate low hassel helpers and bikes, I am just hoping we will all be riding more bike and less car. All the best
@@patrickherzog6520 Im gonna say bank on drone/dirigibles. Picture a minivan sized drone, that utilizes a derigible (Blimp) for negative buoyancy , increasing efficiency and added benefit of safety. These things can cruise at 85 Mph , or much slower for massive efficiency. Add solar film tech to the bladder surface and it can (slowly) recharge itself.
can you give a recommendation for an internal gearbox for an etrike like the AddMotor 350M so I can eliminate the derailer?
Is the revolute without the crank freewheel have the same momentum as my tracklocross (fixie) or the hub is to fragile for skidding & tricks
What is the efficiency levels of these modern gearboxes ? In the days of Sturmney Archer epicyclic gear box; 3 speed 1st gear was down to approx 85%, 2nd was direct drive and 3rd about 92%. THe 5 speed had even greater energy losses.
The hub with the highest efficiency and big gear range is a Rohloff. It's about 94.5% efficient on average. Pinion gearboxes and Shimano Alfine hubs are a bit over 90%. The Sturmey Archer 3-speed is a bit higher than your numbers according to this test (92%+ in all gears): www.ihpva.org/HParchive/PDF/hp52-2001.pdf
Always good updates! Thx!!
Been running an Alfine 7 IGH in a 1.600W 160Nm midmotor ebike for 4 years with great results
Find it best for the buck option by far, but you dont include Alfine in your comparison
Its no longer available?