I recently purchased a Priority 600X with a 12 speed Pinion gearbox. As a long distance bicycle tourist it was an easy decision. The system is smooth and quiet. No more chains, derailleurs and all the mess and maintenance that go along with old technology. Love it!!
@@compassionsix It comes in three sizes and the weight will change depending on the size of the frame, but not by much. If you're worried about weight, the easiest place to lose that weight is with the rider.
I have had a few pinion and Rohloff bikes. A few comments here are complaining about the belt no holding tension or the fact you have to re adjust the wheel and retention the belt if you have had the wheel out. I would put this down to issues with the frames you have and not with the belt. On all the frames I have had you take the wheel out and it does back in the same location as the tensioning is separate to the sliding mechanism. As for belts losing tension again I would say that must be down to dropout design as I have never experienced belts becoming slack due to movement at the wheel. I have had Pilot, Tout Terrain Pinion bikes and Surly, Salsa and Tout Terrain Rohloff bikes. All have performed wonderfully and I love the fact you can go though the deepest mud and all it needs is a hose down. More time riding and less time messing around. The cost of a gearbox is not relevant anymore if you run modern derailleur systems. I am gearboxes or friction shifters on derailleurs all the way. Everyone complains about how standards are not interchangeable or change all the time. Rohloffs and Pinion have hardly changed since their birth. Buy, fit, forget. Save your money, save the environment.
Great stuff. I own two Pinion-equipped Ti framed hardtails - one XC; one trail. They are immense, so much so (after the fragility of 1x systems) I invested in becoming an authorised dealer for Pinion and Gates Carbon Drive. I have ridden Pinion for a year in UK and not cleaned it once! Hasn’t missed a beat. Heavier, yes, but I reckon I could lose a KG to compensate! My YT channel is coming soon too!
Hmmm, I have ridden around 18,000 miles on my two Pinion drive bikes, a Viral Skeptic hardtail and a custom Carver Omega Beast fatbike, in the 3 years since building them. I always cringe when I see reviews of the Pinion gearbox and gates belt system because they are always done by someone who is a committed chain and derailleur rider and they never take the time to ride the system long enough to truly adapt to it. The result are reviews that end up full of misinformation that likely scares people away from the system. My full suspension bike, Mondraker Foxy XR, is a conventional drivetrain bike with the top of the range SRAM AXS system on it, so I get the comparison of the two systems regularly. The fact is that the Pinion system is so different that I doubt anyone not already interested in the advantages of it will want to switch to it just by taking a test ride. It's a system you have to be interested in enough to buy in, and then take the time to adapt to it before all of the advantages/disadvantages become apparent. It also depends on what type of rider you are. I ride 250 miles a week and have a full time job, so if I was riding a conventional drivetrain bike, I would be cleaning/lubing chains constantly, and replacing chains and cassettes, which are expensive these days, more often than I want. Since I'm on a mission to do the ITI, my fatbike is my main ride. The belt and sprockets have over 8,000 miles on them and have at least another 4,000 left in them. The only maintenance I ever do is hose the bike off and rub some bar soap on the belt if it starts to squeak. I would like to clarify some things from this video: 1) You have to ride the system long enough to adapt before making statements about the pros and cons. I can assure you if Neil bought a Pinion bike and rode it as a daily driver he would look back at the things he said in this video and realize they aren't correct. 2) The statement that you have to stop pedaling to shift is just wrong completely. Pinion unfortunately doesn't do a good job of explaining how the gearbox shifts, they just give you a simple explanation of when you need to lighten the load on the pedals to shift. So, in the case of a C1.12/P1.12 there are 12 gears and those gears are in 3 groups of 4 in the gearbox. When up-shift 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 you can pedal as normal, the gearbox will shift under full load. When you make the shift from 4 - 5 you're are moving from one group of 4 gears to the next so you have to unload the gearbox, not stop pedaling, just unload the gearbox just like you are supposed to do with a conventional system. Up -shifting from 5 - 6 - 7 - 8 you can again shift under load. When you make the shift from 8 - 9 you are again moving to a new group of 4 gears and need to unload the gearbox. Now you are back to shifting under load 9 - 10 - 11 - 12. Now when you are down-shifting, you need to lighten the load on the gearbox for all shift, but just lighten the load in the same groups of 4 as explained above. The most finicky shifts are 9 - 8 and 5 - 4, for these shifts across the groups of gears you need to unload the gearbox, but again, that doesn't mean you have to stop pedaling. As said above, I have both pinion and AXS bikes and I now vastly prefer the Pinion system now that I have fully adapted to it. The shift are instant and when you learn the system, often the only indicator that you shifted id that it easier/harder to pedal, the shift is virtually silent. The shifts always take the same amount of time regardless of of how slow you are pedaling, and being able to shift as many gears as you want at a time and being able to shift when you aren't pedaling is awesome. 3) The belt is noisy. Carbon drive belts are quiet, it's one of the things I love about the system and my Onyx hubs. If the belt is making noise it likely isn't aligned correctly. The belt line needs to be straight and the sprockets parallel to each other or it will make noise. 4) The belt stretches. I don't even know what to say about this. Carbon drive belts have a significantly higher tensile strength than a chain and I have never felt any sense of the belt stretching. The Onyx hub does have a soft engagement due to the sprag clutch, so maybe that has something to do with what Neil is feeling. 5) Durability of the system. Pinion gearboxes are bombproof. There are Pinion gearboxes with over 150,000 kilometers on them with the original internals in them, nothing done but oil changes and seals. They are so durable, you really can't damage them even if all the oil leaks out. The light coat left on the gears is sufficient to prevent the gearbox from being damaged unless you ride it forever like that. That said, a P series gearbox has a 5 year warranty and if your gearbox needs to go back to Pinion for service, they give you a loaner gearbox to ride while yours is being serviced. Each time your gearbox goes to pinion for any work, it comes back to you with the warranty extended an additional 2 years. Pinion has the best customer service I have ever dealt with, and Marc Seeman at Pinion/Gates North America is one of the nicest and most helpful humans I have ever run into. Now, relative to perceived issue of fragility of the belt.......that's just another misconception. The belts are bombproof once on the bike and if handled correctly prior to being put into service. I see reviews all the time, like the one on the Spot Rocker single speed Steve at Hardtail party did, where the reviewer has a belt break and they say the belts are fragile and they don't feel confident running them. The only reason the belts snap is because they miss-handled it before they installed it. The belt basically looks like a fan belt from a car and they bend them backwards or in too tight a radius, or twist them and it damages is the carbon strands in the belt and weakens it, then when under load on a ride, it breaks. Pure user error and unfortunately often part of the learning curve of switching to this system. Happened to me when I got my first Viral Skeptic because there was nothing on the belt explaining any of this. In conversation with Marc, I have mentioned many times I thought they should have a tag on the belt warning of this with a QR code to scan that takes you to their website and explains how to handle the belts. All that said, if you ride long miles or are going on a multi-day trip, carry a spare. 6) More resistance/drag then a conventional system. Technically yes......but it's a tricky thing to compare in a meaningful way. A conventional system has less drag, according to what testing I could find, when the chain line is straight, but that changes when in gears where it isn't. Additionally, you really shouldn't pass judgement on this until the gearbox is fully broken in, which in my experience is around 3000 miles. During this period the shift continues to get easier and the gearbox loosens up and spins more freely. Neil installed a new C1.12 during the review, and I can assure you that impacted his opinion. They feel tight when brand new. There is so much more that could be said in hopes of giving perspective converts info to help make the decision, but I'm sure I'll get flamed for the length of the post comment as it is.
Duzer broke a belt on his Priority 600x and explained the situation on a helpful RUclips. Never roll the belt on, that puts weird strain on the belt. Instead move the rear axle forward, put on the belt, and re-tension to avoid lateral torsion.
Ref video author's complaint about belt stretch (feeling spongy), you commented that Gates belt has higher tensile strength than a chain. That may be, but I believe elasticity of a material is not the same as it's tensile strength. Thank you for such a thoughtful and lengthy but patient comment. I appreciate the time you took to share your thoughts.
I’ve been riding a Pinion C1.12 with Gates belt on my Tour Terrain Outback for over a year now, traveling over pretty hardcore terrain in Kyrgyzstan, Spain and just recently, the Baja Divide in Baja California. I’ve learned that a squeaky belt only requires some silicone grease. I had to do this every few days in Baja. The sound can also mean your front sprocket is a little loose, which you should periodically check. I always carry a spare belt for safety, which as you mention is pretty light. Haven’t had any issues with the C1.12, and am impressed by the fast shifting as well as the possibility to shift any time. Climbed super rough terrain on climbs in Baja, whereas my friends with derailleurs were walking. The C1.12 is, like you say, an 10-52 cog with a little more-it’s incredible! As for the pedal stroke stop, that microsecond is easy to get used to. I never even notice it anymore! Well done on this excellent review, I can’t wait to upload my own sometime soon. Thanks Neil!
I don't have a lot of miles on my Pinion equipped bike, but so far I like it. Low gear is about the speed of a slow walk. I was amazed at the gearing. Downshifting takes getting used to. I find that I only have to unweight my pedal stroke as opposed to stopping while I shift. I'm looking forward to some quality bikepacking time with it this year. One of the advantages you didn't mention is that swapping rear wheels is quite simple as compared to a Roloff which requires either purchasing a complete second gearbox or rebuilding your wheels to move it to the other wheel.
Pinion gearboxes are awesome. I went away from derailleurs about six years ago and haven't looked back. You can shift while pedaling with a Pinion or a Rohloff. You just need to remember that when your pedals are at the 6-12 position there is no torque on the system. So with a little bit of practice and coordination you can "power shift" even under load. It is somewhat easier to master if you are going a bit faster, but all you need is a little practice and experimentation. There is a small efficiency hit with the Pinion versus the Rohloff, but in practice you probably won't be able to notice it. Another thing to keep in mind is that in any IGH not all of the gears have the same efficiency, so figuring that out is important and it probably is important in your bike build as well. In Rohloffs gear 7 and 11 are the most efficient. Gear 8 or 9 appear to be the most efficient on the Pinion. A pinion gearbox is about as efficient as a modern SRAM or Shimano drivetrain by itself. You do have some losses from the belt drive and the added weight as well. In my opinion the indestructibility, low maintenance, and very wide gear range make up for those. But everyone's different.
A point to note: If the thought of the Pinion or Rohloff excites you but you don’t like the idea of a belt, you can run both with a chain. And just like on a single speed the chain will last a lot longer. You still need to remember to clean and lube it though 👍🏽
A belt requires no maintenance. The downside is that it requires a special frame with a stiff rear triangle that must also be able to split to pass the belt through.
@@shalakabooyaka1480 There are less expensive alternatives like Enviolo and Alfine. I'm pretty happy with my Alfine 8, and if I could go back in time I would have chosen an Alfine 11 as it is even easier to maintain.
@@Frostbiker Thats good to hear, I'd seen them in passing and didnt pay much attention because, you know, Rohloff are talked up so much(Im sure they've earned their good rep). I'll look into one when I get around to a new drivetrain
I have three bicycles with rohloff and won’t want anything else.. two with a belt and one with a chain. (Recumbent) I did extensive cycling with the later. Twice 6 months, with a lot of load. Now I am about to buy a Avaghon with 12 gears in a pinion. The shifting is just as easy as the rohloff hub and I am used to that kind of shifting. All in all; sometimes it is difficult for several people to change a method; like shifting. In the end you are used to the new method and won’t think anything of it. Great explanation! Thank you!
When I lived in the UK I bought a P18 Pinion gear bike from Germany and your observations are spot on. I LOVED IT TOO! I had mine to travel the world, but alas, due to unexpected personal reasons had to shelve my plans. However, the system worked flawlessly and I highly recommend it if you can afford the increase in cost.
I love it that you pointed out the instantaneous change of gears, without the need of rotating the rear wheel. Hardly anyone mentions it, while also to me its the main gamechanger
@@janeblogs324 its actually getting used to how the Gearbox functions. There is a dead spot in the system (when the pedal is perfectly straight up/down) - when you developed a feeling for it you can shift while pedaling.
@@janeblogs324 This isn't actually correct and is misinformation. The Pinion will instantly shift going up or down with just a 1/10th second soft pedal. OP obviously hadn't figured that out yet. Even having to let off the power you still can change gears in a quarter of the time it takes a derailleur to move the chain to the next cog.
Super excited about this video! I ordered my ToutTerrain Outback Xplore with a P1.18 gearbox and belt drive and I cannot wait for it to arrive in the next week days!! Thanks for another great video about a company that is making a great product that many people don’t know about 👏🏼
I love my pinion bike. Had Waltly build up bike frame to have more flexibility with a custom geometry. I've got the c1.12 and the gates belt. Your belt was definitely getting the squeaks from the dusty conditions. I pretreat my belt before trips with automotive silicone belt spray which keeps it quiet. I find that shifting is so instantaneously that is easy to time shifts between pedal strokes without slowing down
Coming from the world of ebikes, where belt drives are more common, belt drives + internal gear hubs is absolutely bombproof. They are just so much more durable.
@@K1989LI have ebike with enviolo automatique & belt drive. So far no problem. It depend upon combination of motor and enviolo. I don’t need to boost motor unless hitting steep climb. Gears change automatically.
To me, Pinion made some fascinating innovations to make this possible, but I agree with Neil that there’s a challenge in their popularity because it requires a completely different mounting system, whereas gear hubs like a Rolhoff don’t. I’d like to think that we are at the beginning of a new format/standard that will have its own merits. It seems to have found a niche with adventure bikes and cargo bikes, but I think there’s a bigger future. Companies like Effigear are using the Pinion bracket and creating an integrated gearbox/motor system for an e-bike (the Valeo). If this mount becomes a standard where you can swap between an e-bike and an “acoustic”, I’m very optimistic about their future. I could see someone buying a an adventure bike and being happy to ride it acoustic, but at a later stage in life with kids they might want to buy an integrated motor and turn it into a kid hauler. Put simply, if this system helps people live a more car-free lifestyle, I’m all for it.
Pinion needs to stop outrageous bracket frame cost, it is no different than welding a two inch tube...might as well just go with a bafang or tongshen...
Pinion may be to bottom bracket gearboxes as Rohloff is to geared hubs. Both are highly complex, heavy, expensive, supremely well-engineered as well as carefully manufactured. There are more than a few competitors, only one of which (Effigear) appears to require a customized bike frame/bottom bracket shell. Those affordable, bottom-bracket-based gearboxes are: 1. Schlumpf (owned now by Haberstock Mobility) 2. Efneo (distributed by Trident Trikes...for some reason relating to trikes ?) 3. Paterson (as in the S in SRAM), which Sam Paterson sold to FSA (and seems to have disappeared) 4. Another one whose name I forget at the moment Using the Sclumpf/Haberstock (with their peculiar, lever-activated button to change gear ranges) or Efneo (small Polish company with limited distribution) along with a Gates Carbon Belt connected to a Shimano Nexus (or Alfine) 8-speed hub appears to be an affordable (< $900)conversion possibility from the century-old derailleur/chain/cassette (DCC) kludge ! We shall see...as I slowly lose faith in ANY upright bicycle riding ergonomics (regardless of FitKit or other measurements systems) and focus on semi-recumbent, feet-forward-and-down variants of the RANS Fusion as well as the CruzBike T-50 for conversions.
Thank you for this review and finally someone mentions the issue that Gates Belts squeal. I can confirm this isn't only in dry conditions, i live in the UK and we get more than our fair share of rain here. The precise belt line is vital but even with this set perfectly i find i have to use silicone grease spray quite regularly. I've had my Pinion C1.12 Nua Silice for 18 months and love it. Oil changes are so easy i change the oil every six months.
I ordered my Chumba Stella ti with a Rohloff hub. My intention was to have an “on-and-off” road bikepacking rig. I’m in the process of ordering a Carver All Road with a Pinion gearbox for gravel, rail trail and paved road touring bike. I was confused with the number of Pinion units available, but your video--like all your videos--cleared up my questions and concerns. Thank you, once again. Bravo-Zulu, very well done!!.
Good review and info. The Flex you are feeling is actually the frame. The carbon belts actually have less stretch than a metal chain with hundreds of links. That is why belts outlast 5-6 chains. As for shifting, I taught myself to pause pedaling and count to ONE - bam, the shift is done! Short learning curve to eliminate 98% of the maintenance and failure points on a serious bikepacking bike!!
I have a priority 600 and it's proven to be a fantastic bike. Once you get used to the gear shifting, its a great bike to ride and well worth the extra expense for the bike.
I'd love to ride one. I think gearboxes on bikes make so much sense. I wish there were a few more companies that would hop on board to help drive innovation in this space. That said, I think ebikes and gearboxes are a match made in heaven. Especially when we get to electronic shifting.
Yes, came here to say this. Pinion 600X is my dream bike at least from the stats and far cheaper than similar offerings from other brands. How can you make a pinion video, list bike brands and not highlight priority!!
I've been coveting a Pinion bike for a long time. I'm no slouch in the mechanics department, but I still find maintenance on an extended bike tour really difficult.... I think the issues with engagement etc aren't a big deal when you're just chugging away for 8hrs a day rather than hitting technical terrain.
I also have the Priority 600X. Going on my 3rd year. ALWAYS carry a spare belt!....nuff said. Any cheap bar soap is the easiest way to quiet the belt chirp. The belt chirp only happens in dry dusty conditions. The only major thing I have noticed is that mud will throw small pebbles onto the belt. They are then carried to the rear sprocket where they crunch.....Ouch!. I have not yet derailed the belt this way. I try to avoid mud and when I can't, I slow down and try to shed the mud from the tires quickly. I plan on making a prototype belt cover over the lower part of the belt to prevent foreign material from falling onto it. Now, the GOOD stuff...... The ease of shifting is heavenly. You can shift to ANY gear as long as no torque is applied while shifting. This means that shifting is easiest when not pedaling. You can easily anticipate upcoming topography and be ready for it super fast. The almost zero maintenance for the Pinion/Gates system is a MAJOR plus! That, coupled with the enclosed durability of the gear system is a win win. Is this for everyone? Probably not. I have stated what appeals to me about it. By the way, if you shift a derailleur under heavy torque, some damage or premature wear WILL happen. The audible crunch tells the story. The continual maintenance of the drive chain gets old. I still have the original belt on my bike....still going strong. Thanks for sharing. This IS the future.......for some.
Nice review! I don't have the Pinion gear box, but I have the Gates CDX belt drive, and I was surprised to hear about your noise problems. I have had the same belt drive for almost six years now, and I think I have heard a squeaking noise from it for three times. Every time it was because of an especially dusty road with very fine dust. My bike is a commuter, so I don't do much very dusty off-road driving, but I drive on sand roads pretty often, and they are usually at least a little dusty. Your driving is of course very different, so there's no contradiction here. I just thought to bring up my personal experience. Another thing I thought to write about is the belt flex you mention. I personally don’t notice it. I have driven all kinds of bikes with a chain for about 50 years, and when I changed to belt close to six years ago, I never noticed anything that I would call a flex. I frequently pedal uphill hard, giving everything I have for it, and even during that I don’t notice belt flexing. The belt does feel different, though, perhaps at least partly because during pedalling there are no hard surfaces to come into contact with each other between the sprockets and the belt. In the beginning that felt a little strange, as if something was missing from the pedalling experience (the drive train...), but that feeling gave quickly way to enjoyment. Could it be that something else is the source of flex on your bike?
Hi, Neil! I have a Priority 600x and I feel so much more confident not having to deal with chain and derailleur problems. It's perfect for me. It took time to get used to the twist shifting but it doesn't wear on my hands like traditional shifting.
I own a great bike from Solace with a Pinion/Gates belt drivetrain (check them out for "forever" bikepacking rigs). I also own a SS with a Gates carbon belt...(I love any system that avoids needing a derailleur). Due to humidity, folks on the east coast may not have to deal with the squeak of a belt, but out in the dessert, it does happen. While watering the belt can do the trick for the short term as Neil mentions, I have found that spraying the belt with silicone lubricant can really get you through a few rides without the noise. And don't panic, the spray works better if the belt is NOT washed. Light sand and grit actually give the spray something to stay attached to. As for the Pinion....I simply love it! Protected gears, you can shift up or down several gears in one movement, and the weight is centrally located. Though originally opposed to the idea of a twist shifter, I have found that it is intuitive, and easily becomes 2nd nature. If you absolutely have to have a thumb trigger, companies like Cinq and Instintiv Bikes make an adaptor. This really should be the "now" instead of the future, but overall cost and gains always drives the industry.
I have a Shimano Alfine 11 on my Priority Apollo all road bike (with microshift drop bar shifter) and a Priority 600 which is basically a flat bar commuter/tourer with a Pinion C1.12. I don't think I can ever go back to derailleurs and chains now. Never having to touch my drivetrain, even though I commute and ride year round in the Midwest on both bikes has been a revelation. I'm also weird in that I've always liked twist shifting, so the Pinion has been great in that respect.
Use corn starch on the belt and it will get super quiet and not attract any dirt. Best dry lube in the world, corn starch. It's what the car manufacturers use to pack those airbags in so they'll deploy as fast as possible and be fully inflated when you hit them. That's what that white "smoke" is when they deploy and it perfectly safe.
The sponginess is not about the belt, it‘s the gearbox. The belt is actually much stiffer than an chain is! Also for shifting, you just need to stop applying pressure on the pedals to shift! it's not necessary to stop the movement! Thank you for this review!!! Love it! Currently building my pinion adventure bike.
Das, the flex he's describing is actually coming from the Onyx hub and their sprag clutch system. It has a soft engagement system that they freely admit to and I meant to mention it to Neil before he finished his testing.
I'm quite sure the hub is the main factor, I have ridden with a Pinion and Onyx with similar results. I would wager belt tension and frame flex are the primary contributors to people's impressions that belts are spongy...
I can highly recommend the Pinion gear box. Ridden now perhaps 10,000 k with the Tout Terrain Outback equipped with P1.18. I‘m keen on having always the right gear available and that‘s what I got. Nothing to complain about except for the weight. After the first 1,5 years I changed to a chain, mainly because of noise and repair options. For a loaded bike I use 30 teeth in the back and 24 teeth in the front which give me the possibility to ride as slow as possible. I paired it with I9 hydra hub which makes the engagement of the system fully acceptable. I can’t recommend the rear hub of pinion which free hub teeth were not that durable.
I’m buying a bike with a Pinion setup , most probably a Priority 600X . I’m anxiously waiting for other American bike companies to get into this as I believe that this is the future of our sport. Pinion will improve as time goes on and some of the advantages are game changers IMHO.
I have a pinion touring bike and an pinion enduro, i will never look back. its fantastic! this system has so much more pros then cons! If you have a noisy belt, its either the alleignment, way too much tension or you might need a bit of teflon spray. that can happen if its really dirty/dusty. It´s pricy at first but it will last for much much longer then your chain and sprockets. you also save a lot of time cleaning and money on lubes and so on... I laughed my ass of when i saw the prices of the new sram transmission...
I own a Rohloff and a Pinion, both on Tout Terrains. Besides my Brompton, I can’t envision owning another chain or derailleur. I love, love, love my Pinion.
Love Pinion and Rohloff too. Glad to see more brands getting away from detailers. Glad to see Surly adopting Pinion. In fact I want to buy a Moonlander as soon as they become available in Australia. Well done Surly.
So that spongy, spring like feedback is present in the NuVinci N380, especially on the lowest climby positions and in the first chainring up front. The NuVinci N380 is a whole different beast, no indexing, it's all continuously variable. We have an Apollo Gravel bike with an alfine hub and the gates carbon belt drive. We've never had a noisy belt, that's weird. But let's take that weirdness up a notch, you can use a guitar tuning app to get the right belt tension. Of course there is also Priority Bikes, they have been so helpful and when we ran into a couple of issues with the Apollo Gravel we got to talk with one of the engineers.
Really enjoying my Solace Ti Pinion rig. There are pros and cons with Pinion and it’s not for everyone, but for bikepacking, it’s my go to bike now. I’m not racing or riding much tech with it so I don’t need the quick engagement like my other bikes with the Hydras. I really like the limited maintenance required when out in the middle of nowhere. I do carry an extra belt just in case. Thanks for this review video.
I've put about 3000 km into my Priority 600 and I love it. One thing: the default lube in the gearbox can't go below 5 degrees F. Found that out the hard way.
Seriously informative video. Thanks. Lots of good constructive comments here already too. I've been happily using a Gate Center Track belt drive single speed for more than a few years now and this is the first time I've seen the noise issue covered on RUclips. During the dry season my belt does make that annoying sound. Yes water does help for a little while until it dries out. But water is for drinking! It's not acceptable to water your bike on a long hot day in the desert! I tried the tensioning and silicone belt dressing spray, and changed the belt (pricey) but the noise didn't go away. Now I use soap as well, and quite concentrated too from a spray bottle in the garage, and for long hot rides I'll carry a small squeeze bottle for lube. The silicone spray is a PITA because you really have to be careful where you spray it, and it is an extra expense and chemicals. But the thing about the belt being spongy is not true at all. The belt drive bike I have has Chris King hubs and the engagement is very good and immediate with the Gates Center Track Belt. I think Neil is getting an effect from the gear box. Also I more often ride chain driven single speeds and there is much more potential "sponginess" from chain slack. Single speed riders and fixed gear riders are very sensitive to this effect - and therefore fuss with chain tension even though he chain is tensioned enough to not worry about throwing a chain. I'd never thought about being perceived as an eBike rider from riding with a Pinon until I read that below. For me that is an issue too, but come on isn't that petty? And someone mentioned that the frame has to have a split rear triangle or an elevated chainstay, and meet some standard of stiffness. This stiffness is crucial. I'm not worried about the belt breaking, Ryan Van Duzer's whammy not withstanding. What about full suspension bikes with the Pinon? Are there any? In any case I'm incredibly impressed with the gear range which in itself is an amazing accomplishment. How a rider would ride with a Pinon is going to be a lot different coming from derailleurs. As one who rides with derailleurs on mountainbikes I think I've come to learn how to ride compensating for the quirks that derailleur drivetrains impose on me. There are some real positive aspects to the Pinon which are superior to derailleurs. But I'm niot in the market. Just glad to see a great review.
thanks so much that's the video I've waiting for, been looking at building some like that for a while ,love the clean lines from a belt drive and much prefer a mid gear box over a hub one. looking forward to the whole bike review
I really like my Pinion geared bike. I use it for bike packing or rides where I want the ease of maintenance and reliability. On very technical terrain I use my other MTB for the shifting reason. But my Pinion bike is one of my favorites . I do cary an extra belt just incase. Bulletproof and reliable!
From someone who rides a 6-speed Sturmey Archer-geared Brompton, the Pinion shifting would be a really easy transition to make, pausing to shift becomes second nature really quickly. The push/pull cabling sounds like Rohloff (though I’ve no experience there) and as someone’s already mentioned you can use a chain in place of a belt. Plus, you could always run one of those enclosed chain-sprocket-chainring covers, eg: Hebie chain glider to further protect the chain/belt from trail debris that would kill a normal derailleur / mech hanger. Adoption by mainstream manufacturers should lower prices, though on the flip side if custom frame builders were to modify their frame designs that might better drive adoption and gain traction (sorry, bad puns). It should make for a lighter and stronger rear wheel as the bulk of the weight has been removed.
Pinion have now released smart shift or electronic shifting for the C12 gearbox. It uses trigger shifters that change gear in 0.2 of a second, and………under load! I am ordering a Sonder Broken Road with this system. Priority are also offering a bike with smart shift.
Priority 600, is a great bike. It is a commuter bike. but works really well as a touring bike. It also has a Pinion P1.12. Fun to ride and can carry a lot of weight. Check out Priority bikes.
I bought a Priority 600x prior to heading down the GDMBR. Heavy yes but mechanically sound. Nothing went wrong. If only my legs were the same! Soap for the belt is a must although peeing on it in the middle of the Basin worked.
I think it’s a really good system. In the UK the weather / riding conditions can easily damage your drive train, which are expensive. I have really seriously considered selling up existing bikes / spares to consolidate on a dedicated pinion based bikepacking setup
I like the idea with the Pinion, but I never had a Belt drive bicycle that was smooth quite and easygoing.. all had the same issues, creaking noise and when it got wet it would grind the belt with all the dust then I-had to keep adjusting the tension or which Did not stay constant. Great review 😊
I have a Custom Titanium Nua Silice that features the C.12 Pinion and the gates belt. I love everything about the bike except the weight (but the pro's outweigh the cons for me and I'll probably NEVER sell this bike). I use it as my gravel bike and my bike packing bike and my "Dad bike" for the kid trailer (with two different wheel sets ready to go) it took me like half a season of riding to really get used to the new system, shifting/ the belt tension etc. I'm an avid rider but I wouldn't consider my self a "super strong" rider so a lot of the con's Neil was mentioning haven't really effected me as much. For me the zero maintenance is soo underrated literally the only thing I have to think about is my tires the bike is just always good to go. If you are the type of rider that wants to "race" the GDMBR and be concerned about your time/position then pinion probably isn't for you. but if you just want to "ride" The GDMBR just to have accomplished it then the pinion is a dope option.
@@snowcrazed1 I just went the bikepacking website and searched priority to see if there might be some bias. I Sorted by date and relevance the only article was from 2020 about the 600X preorder. Definite bias
I gave a try on a Shimano Alfine 11 di2 gearbox. I couldn't get used to the stop pedaling shifting and the weight ( which btw is less than a pinion ) so I changed back to classic derailleur. I truly admire this gearbox approach though and I truly believe its the best for long distance travel . I am going to give another try on my N +1 dedicated touring bicycle which is going to be A Pinion gearbox at least 12 speed or 18th preferable as for the less percentage difference. Between gears. I hope that when I purchase the gearbox , it will be half the weight .
My Surly ECR is setup with Alfine 11-speed IGH, 18t cog and 26/39 chainrings. With 29x3 tires this gives me 22.8-139.5 gearinches over a 22-speed range. I rarely use top gear, but it comes in handy when wind is at my back on flat or downhill grades. I have also found the low gear to be sufficient because any slower and it becomes difficult to balance the bike and easier to get off and walk.
@@gregknipe8772 No, Neil went out of his way to point out the GearInches for Pinion Gearbox then asked if Pinion Gearbox was for me and what my thought were so I offered my thoughts. If you are butt-hurt then that is on you!
You did a 2x with an internal gear hub? And doesn’t shimano warn against the high torque of using too low of a chainring cog combo? Something like 38/20 was the lowest limit for my nexus hub.
@@timshelhamer7374 tensioner allows me to use dual chainrings. Alphine recommends no more than 16t difference in chainrings so my 26/39 is within limits. I have similar setup on recumbent trike with a Rohloff. Have had no problems with either of these
The engagement is also due to two separate freewheel systems, one being in the gearbox, the other being in the wheel. The belt can slip out when you pick up mud that’s mixed with gravel. Outside of that (and a little weight) I love mine on XC.
Hey there. Which bike do you use with Pinion for XC? Do you think the efficiency difference between a normal derailleur system a pinion system (subject not covered in this video) is noticeable for XC category?
@@willianb.6475 I’m using the Olsen Mokihinui with the lauf tr boost fork and 29X2.8 tyres. To compensate for short travel, the pressure is under 1 bar with the Tannus armour insert. I get some bobbing but I can manage it. I’m using this setup mainly for sturdiness, lack of maintenance and superb climbing performance on loose gravel but I wouldn’t use it for XC racing because a derailleur would save me a little under two kilos and 10w on the belt drive.
In my experience you can shift the Pinion under load, almost. If you apply some of the pressure on the shifter but not enough to actually shift, and you then apply the rest of the pressure when you are going from pushing on one pedal to the other, the shift is smooth and fast. I say almost because you have to hit that sweet spot between pressing on one pedal and shifting to press down on the other. Sounds complicated and fiddly, but, if you try it for a bit, you get used to it pretty fast.
Pinion may be to bottom bracket gearboxes as Rohloff is to geared hubs. Both are highly complex, heavy, expensive, supremely well-engineered as well as carefully manufactured. There are more than a few competitors, only one of which (Effigear) appears to require a customized bike frame/bottom bracket shell. Those affordable, bottom-bracket-based gearboxes are: 1. Schlumpf (owned now by Haberstock Mobility) 2. Efneo (distributed by Trident Trikes...for some reason relating to trikes ?) 3. Paterson (as in the S in SRAM), which Sam Paterson sold to FSA (and seems to have disappeared) 4. Another one whose name I forget at the moment Using the Sclumpf/Haberstock (with their peculiar, lever-activated button to change gear ranges) or Efneo (small Polish company with limited distribution) along with a Gates Carbon Belt connected to a Shimano Nexus (or Alfine) 8-speed hub appears to be an affordable (< $900)conversion possibility from the century-old derailleur/chain/cassette (DCC) kludge ! We shall see...as I slowly lose faith in ANY upright bicycle riding ergonomics (regardless of FitKit or other measurements systems) and focus on semi-recumbent, feet-forward-and-down variants of the RANS Fusion as well as the CruzBike T-50 for conversions.
I always ruled out gearboxes because I prefer drop-bars on my Salsa Fargo. Now that they have a click-shift (STI-type) level system available, I am looking to find a Fargo-like setup that uses this system. I HATE riding in dust or mud and having problems with the chain and re-deraileur, trying to make adjustments to stop imperfect shifting and grinding, etc. This just looks like the perfect, iphone type option (some trade-offs, but it just works and you don't have to fiddle with it). Appreciated the review.
I have a c1.9XR. I find that the larger gear steps are no great problem in fact I do not see value in having big numbers of small steps. For touring and city riding those bigger steps are fine. And when you want to make a big change it requires less movement of the twist shift.
It’s funny how older these videos are😂🪵⚒️🪨🌲🏔️ I have kinda been obsessed by the gearbox concept as I am a Trailbuilder in Southern Oregon. The problem or difficulty is finding one to test ride as a full suspension Mountain Bike and have reached out to Zerode in NZ small company love em but they are limited and I love all the small companies trying to survive 🤷♂️ There is currently a Gates belt challenge to the first riders that can win a World Cup race of course that’s Gates and I guess doesn’t necessarily mean it’s aboard a Pinion. I definitely want one for sure the entire concept screams out to what we do here in austere conditions and miles from camp building so if anyone knows of availability of these beauties something we are missing (we do understand money talks bullshit walks😂🤷♂️) please do lend us an ear. Anyway thanks much great video!!🚵♀️🪵⚒️🌲🪨🏔️see ya on the trails!
Thanks for this review Neil, very informative! I've been riding a custom RollingDale 29'er with Pinion C1:12 and Gates Carbon Drive since early 2020. Not sure how much you played around with the non-sequential shifting while riding technical singletrack. My experience is that advantage is superior to a derailleur. Moving the Pinion shifter to the front brake side of the handlebars also opens up new possibilities, particularly when hammering on rolling terrain. You mentioned belt noise as an intermittent issue. I've found using the Gates Carbon Drive belt tuning app to be extremely helpful to get the correct tension...usually more tension to eliminate noise and "soft pedals". RollingDale-Pinion-Carbon Drive long-term review is titled Finding N+0 at Bikepackers Foundry. Cheers ... Guy
I have a priority 600 and a 2x10 29er hardtail. I really like the 600 but I am noticeably slower on the 600. My husband can tell the difference when we are riding together. I think part of it is the 650b wheels vs the 29" wheels. I do love the gear range and being able to shift while stopped. The 600 also has a hub generator on the front. I'm thinking about replacing that wheel and seeing if this helps. I really don't use the generator except for the headlight.
I replaced the front wheel with a 29" wheel we already had. It is a definite improvement on the speed of the bike. The rear wheel is still the original 650b.
Denham also rides a Koga with a super stiff frame. The average bikepacking bike has a lot more flex, so you likely need to keep the belt tension higher to avoid issues.
I had an extended test ride on a Zerode a few years ago. I can live with almost all of the system foibles but the two that killed it for me was the low points of engagement and the effort needed on the twist shifter. The effect of mass centralisation on the rear suspension was very beneficial. But oh that backlash.
My daily commuter for past 3 years has been Tout Terrain with P1.12. Weight and low POE are the main drawbacks. Pinion customer support is great and they will send you loaner gearbox for free if any factory service required. P line has 5yr warranty, C line has 3yr warranty (upgradeable to 5yr and prob worth it if you are tough on bikes or ride lots of miles)
I've never tried a pinion geared bike, but friends of mine have also talked about the noise it makes, and hotel bar soap fixes it. Apparently they keep it in a handy spot so they can whip it out whenever it starts to make noise, which is not all that often from what they've told me.
A soap bar rubbed on the belt does reduce noise from dust. IME it works better than silicone spray. The silicone spray needs to be re-applied more often. Plus for touring the soap packs much easier.
WELL DONE REVIEW...As an avid retired amateur XC / Endurance Racer approaching my 60s, this intrigues me and others seeking a minimalist crossover insight, as my buddies regularly say the overall weight state has no bearing on the substantive ride, making a difference for me. In addition, I would instead focus on what time I have left to be able to ride rather than maintain the bike. I'm curious: do you think the application may ever be paired with a battery to compete vs. the SL Piggy E-bikes?
When comparing the weight with a “normal” drivetrain one also has to take into consideration that the gearbox is also replacing the bottom bracket shell and a few centimeters of down tube, seat tube and chainstays, which on a steel bike may very well be around half a kilo, so the real weight difference may not be that big in the end…
I've had my Priority 600X for a little over a year now and I have yet to do any big tours on it but after over 500 miles I haven't had to do a single thing to the drivetrain.
The real question will come after some big tours and several thousand miles. But we all know what Duzer thinks. I'd like to try the 600X, but wouldn't buy without a test ride. The concerns that Neil calls out all seem like they'd be easily manageable, especially given the lower maintenance. Seems like a good tradeoff to me.
Great stuff! A revisit with Pinion would be nice with their new electronic shifting system! Also to see if Gates has come up with an answer to the “stretch” on their belts…for those that like to hammer the pedals😂
Hi, to address the noice off the belt, I noticed you used a 32 T ‘chainring’ with a 32 T sprocket. That’s something that Gates does not recommend (the same dimension off the 2 sprockets). In conjunction with the dust and grime this could be the reason for the loud noises the transmission produces.
Enjoyed this video. I will be putting a c 1.6 on my recumbent trike today. Looking forward to it. As far as the squeaky belt goes, has anyone suggested using a belt dressing? It is something that is done on mechanical equipment all of the time.
love the pinion! have a 9 speed on a zerode MTB and a 12 speed on a nua luna. I contacted my bike vendor about this, the squeaks are from static electricity build up on the dust. I notice it more on my MTB than my commuting bike. probably because the MTB has a plastic belt tensioner. i agree it can be annoying, esp. when you are used to a quiet bike the noise is frustrating. minimise it using silicon spray, or just a bit of water on the belt.
I have it on my road bike and I like it. Not sure how it would get implemented on a full suspension bike. There is the matter of chain lengthening. Effie Gear (France) makes a similar box with a separate output shaft. This could be used to create a high pivot frame but might still need some belt tensioner system. Not mentioned was the price. With so much rain around here I am glad to have the P18. My squishy bike (Ibis) has a traditional derailleur. I will upgrade it to the new “transmission” by schram, along with a waxed chain.
With the new electronic shifting on the Pinion, I would expect to see these rigs in the longer endurance races like the Tour Divide. I guess you need to weigh the slight increase in transmission drag losses compared to the likelihood of a bad mechanical fail from a regular drivetrain.
I bicycle tour, like from the US to Panama on my last tour, and my chain and the derailleur are the biggest pain, next is flats but if I take a wheel size that is common there, like 26", that isn't a problem. I am looking at a few bikes with Pinion for my next upgrade.
The gates belt does not stretch or flex. that movement you went on about was the rear hub. PINION H3 HYBRID HUBS. Shifting The Rohloff or the Pinion is quicker and just takes getting used to. Shifting under pressure with a derailleur works because of Intentional design. I destroyed an old school derailleur once by not letting up on the pedal pressure. The Rohloff and Pinion can be shifted under pressure and you wont easily due harm doing so. Priority bicycles offers the 12 speed Pinion on three models. The newest one that is on a pre order has an electric thumb shifter.
6:45 Yes the belt lasts about 15-30k km's. BUT you need to change the belt AND the chainring and the cog. Always change them all. It's about 300€ or more here in the EU.
I think reviewers of the gates carbon drive really should try it also with a single-speed bike. If you are accustomed to riding a derailleur you most likely will mix some of the traits of the igh or gearbox to be features of the belt itself. I also have the gates belt but with a duomatic hub. So it's almost like riding a single-speed. The belt has ZERO flex and if there is any increased drag over a chain it is very unnoticeable. I have not tried the pinion gearbox. They are rare around here but there are tons of bikes with the enviolo hub and gates. Especially with that combo people do say things like the belt is spongy or draggy. When in fact those are the traits of the enviolo hub.
One thing i dislike about these gearhubs (apart from the pricing) is that they don't really accommodate dropbar shifters. But yeah, as long as one of these hubs cost more than my whole bike, i don't really have to worry about them too much.
Neil, I'm curious if you've pedaled an onyx hub with a chain drivetrain in the past. I ask because the springiness you described sounds exactly like how it feels to pedal an onyx hub. The sprage clutch has a little bit of flex and it's most notable when you're in a very low gear ratio. When I have my drivetrain in the 52 tooth cock on the back with a 32 tooth on the front. If I stand on the pedals I can make my cranks rotate somewhere between 5 and 10°. I emailed onyx about this and they said it's inherent to the system.
This is a good and important point - I tested an Onyx hub with my Pinion and the springiness / spongyness was due to the high torque of the gearbox against the (single row) Spragg clutch. For me it was not ridable long term - I switched back to a 54-tooth DT ratchet hub and it feels much more direct with minimal impact on engagement. I was told the double row Spragg clutch system found on some of the Onyx models might not "load up" so much, but I've not tried them. I have read from others that their Onyx experience with Pinion was very positive, so maybe there is something to it.
I recently purchased a Priority 600X with a 12 speed Pinion gearbox. As a long distance bicycle tourist it was an easy decision. The system is smooth and quiet. No more chains, derailleurs and all the mess and maintenance that go along with old technology. Love it!!
What size bike is it, and what is the weight?
I'm waiting to see an in depth review of it. Apart from Duzer...I think he might be biased!
@@Trenchfoot1 Considering he helped design it, but he did ride it and it's tough to be biased out in the middle of nowhere for weeks.
@@compassionsix It comes in three sizes and the weight will change depending on the size of the frame, but not by much. If you're worried about weight, the easiest place to lose that weight is with the rider.
I’ve trimmed off all the weight on me. Just wanting to compare bike weights. The website doesn’t list them as far as I can find.
I have had a few pinion and Rohloff bikes. A few comments here are complaining about the belt no holding tension or the fact you have to re adjust the wheel and retention the belt if you have had the wheel out. I would put this down to issues with the frames you have and not with the belt. On all the frames I have had you take the wheel out and it does back in the same location as the tensioning is separate to the sliding mechanism. As for belts losing tension again I would say that must be down to dropout design as I have never experienced belts becoming slack due to movement at the wheel. I have had Pilot, Tout Terrain Pinion bikes and Surly, Salsa and Tout Terrain Rohloff bikes. All have performed wonderfully and I love the fact you can go though the deepest mud and all it needs is a hose down. More time riding and less time messing around. The cost of a gearbox is not relevant anymore if you run modern derailleur systems. I am gearboxes or friction shifters on derailleurs all the way. Everyone complains about how standards are not interchangeable or change all the time. Rohloffs and Pinion have hardly changed since their birth. Buy, fit, forget. Save your money, save the environment.
do you have a preference between pinion or rohloff?
Great stuff. I own two Pinion-equipped Ti framed hardtails - one XC; one trail. They are immense, so much so (after the fragility of 1x systems) I invested in becoming an authorised dealer for Pinion and Gates Carbon Drive. I have ridden Pinion for a year in UK and not cleaned it once! Hasn’t missed a beat. Heavier, yes, but I reckon I could lose a KG to compensate! My YT channel is coming soon too!
Hi Mate
What about the purchase of the motor without the bike?
Hmmm, I have ridden around 18,000 miles on my two Pinion drive bikes, a Viral Skeptic hardtail and a custom Carver Omega Beast fatbike, in the 3 years since building them. I always cringe when I see reviews of the Pinion gearbox and gates belt system because they are always done by someone who is a committed chain and derailleur rider and they never take the time to ride the system long enough to truly adapt to it. The result are reviews that end up full of misinformation that likely scares people away from the system. My full suspension bike, Mondraker Foxy XR, is a conventional drivetrain bike with the top of the range SRAM AXS system on it, so I get the comparison of the two systems regularly. The fact is that the Pinion system is so different that I doubt anyone not already interested in the advantages of it will want to switch to it just by taking a test ride. It's a system you have to be interested in enough to buy in, and then take the time to adapt to it before all of the advantages/disadvantages become apparent. It also depends on what type of rider you are. I ride 250 miles a week and have a full time job, so if I was riding a conventional drivetrain bike, I would be cleaning/lubing chains constantly, and replacing chains and cassettes, which are expensive these days, more often than I want. Since I'm on a mission to do the ITI, my fatbike is my main ride. The belt and sprockets have over 8,000 miles on them and have at least another 4,000 left in them. The only maintenance I ever do is hose the bike off and rub some bar soap on the belt if it starts to squeak. I would like to clarify some things from this video:
1) You have to ride the system long enough to adapt before making statements about the pros and cons. I can assure you if Neil bought a Pinion bike and rode it as a daily driver he would look back at the things he said in this video and realize they aren't correct.
2) The statement that you have to stop pedaling to shift is just wrong completely. Pinion unfortunately doesn't do a good job of explaining how the gearbox shifts, they just give you a simple explanation of when you need to lighten the load on the pedals to shift. So, in the case of a C1.12/P1.12 there are 12 gears and those gears are in 3 groups of 4 in the gearbox. When up-shift 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 you can pedal as normal, the gearbox will shift under full load. When you make the shift from 4 - 5 you're are moving from one group of 4 gears to the next so you have to unload the gearbox, not stop pedaling, just unload the gearbox just like you are supposed to do with a conventional system. Up -shifting from 5 - 6 - 7 - 8 you can again shift under load. When you make the shift from 8 - 9 you are again moving to a new group of 4 gears and need to unload the gearbox. Now you are back to shifting under load 9 - 10 - 11 - 12. Now when you are down-shifting, you need to lighten the load on the gearbox for all shift, but just lighten the load in the same groups of 4 as explained above. The most finicky shifts are 9 - 8 and 5 - 4, for these shifts across the groups of gears you need to unload the gearbox, but again, that doesn't mean you have to stop pedaling. As said above, I have both pinion and AXS bikes and I now vastly prefer the Pinion system now that I have fully adapted to it. The shift are instant and when you learn the system, often the only indicator that you shifted id that it easier/harder to pedal, the shift is virtually silent. The shifts always take the same amount of time regardless of of how slow you are pedaling, and being able to shift as many gears as you want at a time and being able to shift when you aren't pedaling is awesome.
3) The belt is noisy. Carbon drive belts are quiet, it's one of the things I love about the system and my Onyx hubs. If the belt is making noise it likely isn't aligned correctly. The belt line needs to be straight and the sprockets parallel to each other or it will make noise.
4) The belt stretches. I don't even know what to say about this. Carbon drive belts have a significantly higher tensile strength than a chain and I have never felt any sense of the belt stretching. The Onyx hub does have a soft engagement due to the sprag clutch, so maybe that has something to do with what Neil is feeling.
5) Durability of the system. Pinion gearboxes are bombproof. There are Pinion gearboxes with over 150,000 kilometers on them with the original internals in them, nothing done but oil changes and seals. They are so durable, you really can't damage them even if all the oil leaks out. The light coat left on the gears is sufficient to prevent the gearbox from being damaged unless you ride it forever like that. That said, a P series gearbox has a 5 year warranty and if your gearbox needs to go back to Pinion for service, they give you a loaner gearbox to ride while yours is being serviced. Each time your gearbox goes to pinion for any work, it comes back to you with the warranty extended an additional 2 years. Pinion has the best customer service I have ever dealt with, and Marc Seeman at Pinion/Gates North America is one of the nicest and most helpful humans I have ever run into. Now, relative to perceived issue of fragility of the belt.......that's just another misconception. The belts are bombproof once on the bike and if handled correctly prior to being put into service. I see reviews all the time, like the one on the Spot Rocker single speed Steve at Hardtail party did, where the reviewer has a belt break and they say the belts are fragile and they don't feel confident running them. The only reason the belts snap is because they miss-handled it before they installed it. The belt basically looks like a fan belt from a car and they bend them backwards or in too tight a radius, or twist them and it damages is the carbon strands in the belt and weakens it, then when under load on a ride, it breaks. Pure user error and unfortunately often part of the learning curve of switching to this system. Happened to me when I got my first Viral Skeptic because there was nothing on the belt explaining any of this. In conversation with Marc, I have mentioned many times I thought they should have a tag on the belt warning of this with a QR code to scan that takes you to their website and explains how to handle the belts. All that said, if you ride long miles or are going on a multi-day trip, carry a spare.
6) More resistance/drag then a conventional system. Technically yes......but it's a tricky thing to compare in a meaningful way. A conventional system has less drag, according to what testing I could find, when the chain line is straight, but that changes when in gears where it isn't. Additionally, you really shouldn't pass judgement on this until the gearbox is fully broken in, which in my experience is around 3000 miles. During this period the shift continues to get easier and the gearbox loosens up and spins more freely. Neil installed a new C1.12 during the review, and I can assure you that impacted his opinion. They feel tight when brand new.
There is so much more that could be said in hopes of giving perspective converts info to help make the decision, but I'm sure I'll get flamed for the length of the post comment as it is.
Great information. Thank you!
thanks for your in-depth experience! first I’m hearing of how shifting is intended to work
Duzer broke a belt on his Priority 600x and explained the situation on a helpful RUclips. Never roll the belt on, that puts weird strain on the belt. Instead move the rear axle forward, put on the belt, and re-tension to avoid lateral torsion.
Ref video author's complaint about belt stretch (feeling spongy), you commented that Gates belt has higher tensile strength than a chain. That may be, but I believe elasticity of a material is not the same as it's tensile strength. Thank you for such a thoughtful and lengthy but patient comment. I appreciate the time you took to share your thoughts.
I learned more from this comment then from many videos... thank you!
I’ve been riding a Pinion C1.12 with Gates belt on my Tour Terrain Outback for over a year now, traveling over pretty hardcore terrain in Kyrgyzstan, Spain and just recently, the Baja Divide in Baja California.
I’ve learned that a squeaky belt only requires some silicone grease. I had to do this every few days in Baja. The sound can also mean your front sprocket is a little loose, which you should periodically check. I always carry a spare belt for safety, which as you mention is pretty light.
Haven’t had any issues with the C1.12, and am impressed by the fast shifting as well as the possibility to shift any time. Climbed super rough terrain on climbs in Baja, whereas my friends with derailleurs were walking. The C1.12 is, like you say, an 10-52 cog with a little more-it’s incredible! As for the pedal stroke stop, that microsecond is easy to get used to. I never even notice it anymore!
Well done on this excellent review, I can’t wait to upload my own sometime soon. Thanks Neil!
what is this frame made of? I can’t find it on manufacturers website
@@Cinnabuns2009 for sure steel, the matter is what kind of steel. Is it Taiwan 4130 or something specific
@@TrzCinA122 Just seeing this! The frame is CrMo 4130 (chrome molybdenum) steel.
Why not 18 speed since you travel extensively with loads of luggage?
Difference between Outback and Silk Route?
I don't have a lot of miles on my Pinion equipped bike, but so far I like it. Low gear is about the speed of a slow walk. I was amazed at the gearing. Downshifting takes getting used to. I find that I only have to unweight my pedal stroke as opposed to stopping while I shift. I'm looking forward to some quality bikepacking time with it this year.
One of the advantages you didn't mention is that swapping rear wheels is quite simple as compared to a Roloff which requires either purchasing a complete second gearbox or rebuilding your wheels to move it to the other wheel.
Excellent point. The rear wheel change/swap out was one of the main points for my choice of Pinion over Rolhoff.
Pinion gearboxes are awesome. I went away from derailleurs about six years ago and haven't looked back.
You can shift while pedaling with a Pinion or a Rohloff. You just need to remember that when your pedals are at the 6-12 position there is no torque on the system. So with a little bit of practice and coordination you can "power shift" even under load. It is somewhat easier to master if you are going a bit faster, but all you need is a little practice and experimentation.
There is a small efficiency hit with the Pinion versus the Rohloff, but in practice you probably won't be able to notice it. Another thing to keep in mind is that in any IGH not all of the gears have the same efficiency, so figuring that out is important and it probably is important in your bike build as well. In Rohloffs gear 7 and 11 are the most efficient. Gear 8 or 9 appear to be the most efficient on the Pinion.
A pinion gearbox is about as efficient as a modern SRAM or Shimano drivetrain by itself. You do have some losses from the belt drive and the added weight as well. In my opinion the indestructibility, low maintenance, and very wide gear range make up for those. But everyone's different.
A point to note: If the thought of the Pinion or Rohloff excites you but you don’t like the idea of a belt, you can run both with a chain. And just like on a single speed the chain will last a lot longer. You still need to remember to clean and lube it though 👍🏽
A belt requires no maintenance. The downside is that it requires a special frame with a stiff rear triangle that must also be able to split to pass the belt through.
@@Frostbiker Is that a downside or a prerequisite? 👍🏽
the thought of the upfront cost is what puts me off
@@shalakabooyaka1480 There are less expensive alternatives like Enviolo and Alfine. I'm pretty happy with my Alfine 8, and if I could go back in time I would have chosen an Alfine 11 as it is even easier to maintain.
@@Frostbiker Thats good to hear, I'd seen them in passing and didnt pay much attention because, you know, Rohloff are talked up so much(Im sure they've earned their good rep). I'll look into one when I get around to a new drivetrain
I have three bicycles with rohloff and won’t want anything else.. two with a belt and one with a chain. (Recumbent) I did extensive cycling with the later. Twice 6 months, with a lot of load. Now I am about to buy a Avaghon with 12 gears in a pinion. The shifting is just as easy as the rohloff hub and I am used to that kind of shifting. All in all; sometimes it is difficult for several people to change a method; like shifting. In the end you are used to the new method and won’t think anything of it. Great explanation! Thank you!
When I lived in the UK I bought a P18 Pinion gear bike from Germany and your observations are spot on. I LOVED IT TOO! I had mine to travel the world, but alas, due to unexpected personal reasons had to shelve my plans. However, the system worked flawlessly and I highly recommend it if you can afford the increase in cost.
Love the rate you’re coming out with new content. Great job and keep it up Neil! Hope more ride reports are coming up soon
I love it that you pointed out the instantaneous change of gears, without the need of rotating the rear wheel. Hardly anyone mentions it, while also to me its the main gamechanger
11:04 having to stop pedaling entirely to gear change is not a good thing, its a gamechanger alright
@@janeblogs324 its actually getting used to how the Gearbox functions. There is a dead spot in the system (when the pedal is perfectly straight up/down) - when you developed a feeling for it you can shift while pedaling.
@@janeblogs324 This isn't actually correct and is misinformation. The Pinion will instantly shift going up or down with just a 1/10th second soft pedal. OP obviously hadn't figured that out yet. Even having to let off the power you still can change gears in a quarter of the time it takes a derailleur to move the chain to the next cog.
@@bushflyr7335 Winteresting
Super excited about this video! I ordered my ToutTerrain Outback Xplore with a P1.18 gearbox and belt drive and I cannot wait for it to arrive in the next week days!! Thanks for another great video about a company that is making a great product that many people don’t know about 👏🏼
Now, a year later, do you have any insight to share about your new bike?
I love my pinion bike. Had Waltly build up bike frame to have more flexibility with a custom geometry. I've got the c1.12 and the gates belt. Your belt was definitely getting the squeaks from the dusty conditions. I pretreat my belt before trips with automotive silicone belt spray which keeps it quiet. I find that shifting is so instantaneously that is easy to time shifts between pedal strokes without slowing down
Coming from the world of ebikes, where belt drives are more common, belt drives + internal gear hubs is absolutely bombproof. They are just so much more durable.
Only if it's paired with a rohloff. I've heard so many cases of the enviolo blowing up I am not trusting it.
@@K1989LI have ebike with enviolo automatique & belt drive. So far no problem. It depend upon combination of motor and enviolo. I don’t need to boost motor unless hitting steep climb. Gears change automatically.
I have the Priority 600 and it is fantastic because of this gear box.
To me, Pinion made some fascinating innovations to make this possible, but I agree with Neil that there’s a challenge in their popularity because it requires a completely different mounting system, whereas gear hubs like a Rolhoff don’t. I’d like to think that we are at the beginning of a new format/standard that will have its own merits. It seems to have found a niche with adventure bikes and cargo bikes, but I think there’s a bigger future.
Companies like Effigear are using the Pinion bracket and creating an integrated gearbox/motor system for an e-bike (the Valeo). If this mount becomes a standard where you can swap between an e-bike and an “acoustic”, I’m very optimistic about their future. I could see someone buying a an adventure bike and being happy to ride it acoustic, but at a later stage in life with kids they might want to buy an integrated motor and turn it into a kid hauler.
Put simply, if this system helps people live a more car-free lifestyle, I’m all for it.
Pinion needs to stop outrageous bracket frame cost, it is no different than welding a two inch tube...might as well just go with a bafang or tongshen...
Gear hubs don't remove unsprung mass.
Pinion may be to bottom bracket gearboxes as Rohloff is to geared hubs. Both are highly complex, heavy, expensive, supremely well-engineered as well as carefully manufactured.
There are more than a few competitors, only one of which (Effigear) appears to require a customized bike frame/bottom bracket shell. Those affordable, bottom-bracket-based gearboxes are:
1. Schlumpf (owned now by Haberstock Mobility)
2. Efneo (distributed by Trident Trikes...for some reason relating to trikes ?)
3. Paterson (as in the S in SRAM), which Sam Paterson sold to FSA (and seems to have disappeared)
4. Another one whose name I forget at the moment
Using the Sclumpf/Haberstock (with their peculiar, lever-activated button to change gear ranges) or Efneo (small Polish company with limited distribution) along with a Gates Carbon Belt connected to a Shimano Nexus (or Alfine) 8-speed hub appears to be an affordable (< $900)conversion possibility from the century-old derailleur/chain/cassette (DCC) kludge !
We shall see...as I slowly lose faith in ANY upright bicycle riding ergonomics (regardless of FitKit or other measurements systems) and focus on semi-recumbent, feet-forward-and-down variants of the RANS Fusion as well as the CruzBike T-50 for conversions.
Also, looking like $2k just for the gearbox??
@@toastreconsure, but when you think that it’s also considerably more durable, it’s not necessarily more but more up front.
Thank you for this review and finally someone mentions the issue that Gates Belts squeal. I can confirm this isn't only in dry conditions, i live in the UK and we get more than our fair share of rain here. The precise belt line is vital but even with this set perfectly i find i have to use silicone grease spray quite regularly. I've had my Pinion C1.12 Nua Silice for 18 months and love it. Oil changes are so easy i change the oil every six months.
I ordered my Chumba Stella ti with a Rohloff hub. My intention was to have an “on-and-off” road bikepacking rig. I’m in the process of ordering a Carver All Road with a Pinion gearbox for gravel, rail trail and paved road touring bike. I was confused with the number of Pinion units available, but your video--like all your videos--cleared up my questions and concerns. Thank you, once again. Bravo-Zulu, very well done!!.
Good review and info. The Flex you are feeling is actually the frame. The carbon belts actually have less stretch than a metal chain with hundreds of links. That is why belts outlast 5-6 chains. As for shifting, I taught myself to pause pedaling and count to ONE - bam, the shift is done! Short learning curve to eliminate 98% of the maintenance and failure points on a serious bikepacking bike!!
I have a priority 600 and it's proven to be a fantastic bike. Once you get used to the gear shifting, its a great bike to ride and well worth the extra expense for the bike.
I'd love to ride one. I think gearboxes on bikes make so much sense. I wish there were a few more companies that would hop on board to help drive innovation in this space. That said, I think ebikes and gearboxes are a match made in heaven. Especially when we get to electronic shifting.
EXACTLY!!!! i think in 5-10 years all ebikes will be equipped with it!!!
Thanks for your review of Pinion. Please do a review on the Priority 600x.
Yes, came here to say this. Pinion 600X is my dream bike at least from the stats and far cheaper than similar offerings from other brands. How can you make a pinion video, list bike brands and not highlight priority!!
One of the Best vids you done.
I've been coveting a Pinion bike for a long time. I'm no slouch in the mechanics department, but I still find maintenance on an extended bike tour really difficult.... I think the issues with engagement etc aren't a big deal when you're just chugging away for 8hrs a day rather than hitting technical terrain.
I also have the Priority 600X. Going on my 3rd year. ALWAYS carry a spare belt!....nuff said. Any cheap bar soap is the easiest way to quiet the belt chirp. The belt chirp only happens in dry dusty conditions. The only major thing I have noticed is that mud will throw small pebbles onto the belt. They are then carried to the rear sprocket where they crunch.....Ouch!. I have not yet derailed the belt this way. I try to avoid mud and when I can't, I slow down and try to shed the mud from the tires quickly. I plan on making a prototype belt cover over the lower part of the belt to prevent foreign material from falling onto it.
Now, the GOOD stuff...... The ease of shifting is heavenly. You can shift to ANY gear as long as no torque is applied while shifting. This means that shifting is easiest when not pedaling. You can easily anticipate upcoming topography and be ready for it super fast. The almost zero maintenance for the Pinion/Gates system is a MAJOR plus! That, coupled with the enclosed durability of the gear system is a win win. Is this for everyone? Probably not. I have stated what appeals to me about it. By the way, if you shift a derailleur under heavy torque, some damage or premature wear WILL happen. The audible crunch tells the story. The continual maintenance of the drive chain gets old. I still have the original belt on my bike....still going strong. Thanks for sharing. This IS the future.......for some.
Great information. Your work on a prototype belt cover sounds interesting. Most likely worthy of a patent.
Nice review! I don't have the Pinion gear box, but I have the Gates CDX belt drive, and I was surprised to hear about your noise problems. I have had the same belt drive for almost six years now, and I think I have heard a squeaking noise from it for three times. Every time it was because of an especially dusty road with very fine dust. My bike is a commuter, so I don't do much very dusty off-road driving, but I drive on sand roads pretty often, and they are usually at least a little dusty. Your driving is of course very different, so there's no contradiction here. I just thought to bring up my personal experience.
Another thing I thought to write about is the belt flex you mention. I personally don’t notice it. I have driven all kinds of bikes with a chain for about 50 years, and when I changed to belt close to six years ago, I never noticed anything that I would call a flex. I frequently pedal uphill hard, giving everything I have for it, and even during that I don’t notice belt flexing. The belt does feel different, though, perhaps at least partly because during pedalling there are no hard surfaces to come into contact with each other between the sprockets and the belt. In the beginning that felt a little strange, as if something was missing from the pedalling experience (the drive train...), but that feeling gave quickly way to enjoyment. Could it be that something else is the source of flex on your bike?
Hi, Neil! I have a Priority 600x and I feel so much more confident not having to deal with chain and derailleur problems. It's perfect for me. It took time to get used to the twist shifting but it doesn't wear on my hands like traditional shifting.
I own a great bike from Solace with a Pinion/Gates belt drivetrain (check them out for "forever" bikepacking rigs). I also own a SS with a Gates carbon belt...(I love any system that avoids needing a derailleur). Due to humidity, folks on the east coast may not have to deal with the squeak of a belt, but out in the dessert, it does happen. While watering the belt can do the trick for the short term as Neil mentions, I have found that spraying the belt with silicone lubricant can really get you through a few rides without the noise. And don't panic, the spray works better if the belt is NOT washed. Light sand and grit actually give the spray something to stay attached to. As for the Pinion....I simply love it! Protected gears, you can shift up or down several gears in one movement, and the weight is centrally located. Though originally opposed to the idea of a twist shifter, I have found that it is intuitive, and easily becomes 2nd nature. If you absolutely have to have a thumb trigger, companies like Cinq and Instintiv Bikes make an adaptor. This really should be the "now" instead of the future, but overall cost and gains always drives the industry.
I have a Shimano Alfine 11 on my Priority Apollo all road bike (with microshift drop bar shifter) and a Priority 600 which is basically a flat bar commuter/tourer with a Pinion C1.12. I don't think I can ever go back to derailleurs and chains now. Never having to touch my drivetrain, even though I commute and ride year round in the Midwest on both bikes has been a revelation. I'm also weird in that I've always liked twist shifting, so the Pinion has been great in that respect.
Use corn starch on the belt and it will get super quiet and not attract any dirt. Best dry lube in the world, corn starch. It's what the car manufacturers use to pack those airbags in so they'll deploy as fast as possible and be fully inflated when you hit them. That's what that white "smoke" is when they deploy and it perfectly safe.
I worked as an airbag design engineer for almost 4 years and we never used corn starch. Corn starch gets sticky when wet.
The sponginess is not about the belt, it‘s the gearbox. The belt is actually much stiffer than an chain is!
Also for shifting, you just need to stop applying pressure on the pedals to shift! it's not necessary to stop the movement!
Thank you for this review!!!
Love it!
Currently building my pinion adventure bike.
Das, the flex he's describing is actually coming from the Onyx hub and their sprag clutch system. It has a soft engagement system that they freely admit to and I meant to mention it to Neil before he finished his testing.
@@domahidy Its not just the hub. Plenty of people have reported the same rubber banding on belt drives from multiple different bikes and hubs
Not true. The belt is spongie
@@friendbubble8415 what?
I'm quite sure the hub is the main factor, I have ridden with a Pinion and Onyx with similar results. I would wager belt tension and frame flex are the primary contributors to people's impressions that belts are spongy...
Great detailed review. Thanks for all the pros and cons of this drive system.
I can highly recommend the Pinion gear box. Ridden now perhaps 10,000 k with the Tout Terrain Outback equipped with P1.18. I‘m keen on having always the right gear available and that‘s what I got. Nothing to complain about except for the weight. After the first 1,5 years I changed to a chain, mainly because of noise and repair options. For a loaded bike I use 30 teeth in the back and 24 teeth in the front which give me the possibility to ride as slow as possible. I paired it with I9 hydra hub which makes the engagement of the system fully acceptable. I can’t recommend the rear hub of pinion which free hub teeth were not that durable.
I’m buying a bike with a Pinion setup , most probably a Priority 600X . I’m anxiously waiting for other American bike companies to get into this as I believe that this is the future of our sport. Pinion will improve as time goes on and some of the advantages are game changers IMHO.
I have a pinion touring bike and an pinion enduro, i will never look back. its fantastic! this system has so much more pros then cons!
If you have a noisy belt, its either the alleignment, way too much tension or you might need a bit of teflon spray. that can happen if its really dirty/dusty.
It´s pricy at first but it will last for much much longer then your chain and sprockets. you also save a lot of time cleaning and money on lubes and so on...
I laughed my ass of when i saw the prices of the new sram transmission...
I own a Rohloff and a Pinion, both on Tout Terrains. Besides my Brompton, I can’t envision owning another chain or derailleur.
I love, love, love my Pinion.
Love Pinion and Rohloff too. Glad to see more brands getting away from detailers. Glad to see Surly adopting Pinion. In fact I want to buy a Moonlander as soon as they become available in Australia. Well done Surly.
So that spongy, spring like feedback is present in the NuVinci N380, especially on the lowest climby positions and in the first chainring up front. The NuVinci N380 is a whole different beast, no indexing, it's all continuously variable. We have an Apollo Gravel bike with an alfine hub and the gates carbon belt drive. We've never had a noisy belt, that's weird. But let's take that weirdness up a notch, you can use a guitar tuning app to get the right belt tension. Of course there is also Priority Bikes, they have been so helpful and when we ran into a couple of issues with the Apollo Gravel we got to talk with one of the engineers.
I think this is the future. The two cable setup and the gripshift is my main gripe but their new smart shift looks promising
Really enjoying my Solace Ti Pinion rig. There are pros and cons with Pinion and it’s not for everyone, but for bikepacking, it’s my go to bike now. I’m not racing or riding much tech with it so I don’t need the quick engagement like my other bikes with the Hydras. I really like the limited maintenance required when out in the middle of nowhere. I do carry an extra belt just in case. Thanks for this review video.
I've put about 3000 km into my Priority 600 and I love it. One thing: the default lube in the gearbox can't go below 5 degrees F. Found that out the hard way.
Seriously informative video. Thanks. Lots of good constructive comments here already too. I've been happily using a Gate Center Track belt drive single speed for more than a few years now and this is the first time I've seen the noise issue covered on RUclips. During the dry season my belt does make that annoying sound. Yes water does help for a little while until it dries out. But water is for drinking! It's not acceptable to water your bike on a long hot day in the desert! I tried the tensioning and silicone belt dressing spray, and changed the belt (pricey) but the noise didn't go away. Now I use soap as well, and quite concentrated too from a spray bottle in the garage, and for long hot rides I'll carry a small squeeze bottle for lube. The silicone spray is a PITA because you really have to be careful where you spray it, and it is an extra expense and chemicals. But the thing about the belt being spongy is not true at all. The belt drive bike I have has Chris King hubs and the engagement is very good and immediate with the Gates Center Track Belt. I think Neil is getting an effect from the gear box. Also I more often ride chain driven single speeds and there is much more potential "sponginess" from chain slack. Single speed riders and fixed gear riders are very sensitive to this effect - and therefore fuss with chain tension even though he chain is tensioned enough to not worry about throwing a chain. I'd never thought about being perceived as an eBike rider from riding with a Pinon until I read that below. For me that is an issue too, but come on isn't that petty? And someone mentioned that the frame has to have a split rear triangle or an elevated chainstay, and meet some standard of stiffness. This stiffness is crucial. I'm not worried about the belt breaking, Ryan Van Duzer's whammy not withstanding. What about full suspension bikes with the Pinon? Are there any? In any case I'm incredibly impressed with the gear range which in itself is an amazing accomplishment. How a rider would ride with a Pinon is going to be a lot different coming from derailleurs. As one who rides with derailleurs on mountainbikes I think I've come to learn how to ride compensating for the quirks that derailleur drivetrains impose on me. There are some real positive aspects to the Pinon which are superior to derailleurs. But I'm niot in the market. Just glad to see a great review.
Very nice review and explanation. Felt like I had ridden one without actually having tried it.
thanks so much that's the video I've waiting for, been looking at building some like that for a while ,love the clean lines from a belt drive and much prefer a mid gear box over a hub one. looking forward to the whole bike review
I really like my Pinion geared bike. I use it for bike packing or rides where I want the ease of maintenance and reliability. On very technical terrain I use my other MTB for the shifting reason. But my Pinion bike is one of my favorites . I do cary an extra belt just incase. Bulletproof and reliable!
From someone who rides a 6-speed Sturmey Archer-geared Brompton, the Pinion shifting would be a really easy transition to make, pausing to shift becomes second nature really quickly. The push/pull cabling sounds like Rohloff (though I’ve no experience there) and as someone’s already mentioned you can use a chain in place of a belt. Plus, you could always run one of those enclosed chain-sprocket-chainring covers, eg: Hebie chain glider to further protect the chain/belt from trail debris that would kill a normal derailleur / mech hanger.
Adoption by mainstream manufacturers should lower prices, though on the flip side if custom frame builders were to modify their frame designs that might better drive adoption and gain traction (sorry, bad puns). It should make for a lighter and stronger rear wheel as the bulk of the weight has been removed.
Pinion have now released smart shift or electronic shifting for the C12 gearbox. It uses trigger shifters that change gear in 0.2 of a second, and………under load! I am ordering a Sonder Broken Road with this system. Priority are also offering a bike with smart shift.
Priority 600, is a great bike. It is a commuter bike. but works really well as a touring bike. It also has a Pinion P1.12. Fun to ride and can carry a lot of weight. Check out Priority bikes.
I bought a Priority 600x prior to heading down the GDMBR. Heavy yes but mechanically sound. Nothing went wrong. If only my legs were the same!
Soap for the belt is a must although peeing on it in the middle of the Basin worked.
I think it’s a really good system. In the UK the weather / riding conditions can easily damage your drive train, which are expensive. I have really seriously considered selling up existing bikes / spares to consolidate on a dedicated pinion based bikepacking setup
Use a cheap drive drain instead.
Good video. I am very interested in the Pinion gearbox. I am considering the Priority 600X for my next bike.
I like the idea with the Pinion, but I never had a Belt drive bicycle that was smooth quite and easygoing.. all had the same issues, creaking noise and when it got wet it would grind the belt with all the dust then I-had to keep adjusting the tension or which Did not stay constant. Great review 😊
I have a Custom Titanium Nua Silice that features the C.12 Pinion and the gates belt. I love everything about the bike except the weight (but the pro's outweigh the cons for me and I'll probably NEVER sell this bike). I use it as my gravel bike and my bike packing bike and my "Dad bike" for the kid trailer (with two different wheel sets ready to go) it took me like half a season of riding to really get used to the new system, shifting/ the belt tension etc. I'm an avid rider but I wouldn't consider my self a "super strong" rider so a lot of the con's Neil was mentioning haven't really effected me as much. For me the zero maintenance is soo underrated literally the only thing I have to think about is my tires the bike is just always good to go. If you are the type of rider that wants to "race" the GDMBR and be concerned about your time/position then pinion probably isn't for you. but if you just want to "ride" The GDMBR just to have accomplished it then the pinion is a dope option.
I find it odd that he named off about 10 brands he recommends that use the pinion drive and not once mentioned Priority?!?!
Exactly, came here just to say this
@@snowcrazed1 I just went the bikepacking website and searched priority to see if there might be some bias. I Sorted by date and relevance the only article was from 2020 about the 600X preorder. Definite bias
I gave a try on a Shimano Alfine 11 di2 gearbox. I couldn't get used to the stop pedaling shifting and the weight ( which btw is less than a pinion ) so I changed back to classic derailleur.
I truly admire this gearbox approach though and I truly believe its the best for long distance travel .
I am going to give another try on my N +1 dedicated touring bicycle which is going to be A Pinion gearbox at least 12 speed or 18th preferable as for the less percentage difference. Between gears.
I hope that when I purchase the gearbox , it will be half the weight .
My Surly ECR is setup with Alfine 11-speed IGH, 18t cog and 26/39 chainrings. With 29x3 tires this gives me 22.8-139.5 gearinches over a 22-speed range. I rarely use top gear, but it comes in handy when wind is at my back on flat or downhill grades. I have also found the low gear to be sufficient because any slower and it becomes difficult to balance the bike and easier to get off and walk.
@@gregknipe8772 No, Neil went out of his way to point out the GearInches for Pinion Gearbox then asked if Pinion Gearbox was for me and what my thought were so I offered my thoughts. If you are butt-hurt then that is on you!
@@thunderbird3694 I'll get my butt out of this.
You did a 2x with an internal gear hub? And doesn’t shimano warn against the high torque of using too low of a chainring cog combo? Something like 38/20 was the lowest limit for my nexus hub.
@@timshelhamer7374 tensioner allows me to use dual chainrings. Alphine recommends no more than 16t difference in chainrings so my 26/39 is within limits. I have similar setup on recumbent trike with a Rohloff. Have had no problems with either of these
Belt and gearbox is the way to go. Brilliant
The engagement is also due to two separate freewheel systems, one being in the gearbox, the other being in the wheel. The belt can slip out when you pick up mud that’s mixed with gravel. Outside of that (and a little weight) I love mine on XC.
Hey there. Which bike do you use with Pinion for XC? Do you think the efficiency difference between a normal derailleur system a pinion system (subject not covered in this video) is noticeable for XC category?
@@willianb.6475 I’m using the Olsen Mokihinui with the lauf tr boost fork and 29X2.8 tyres. To compensate for short travel, the pressure is under 1 bar with the Tannus armour insert. I get some bobbing but I can manage it. I’m using this setup mainly for sturdiness, lack of maintenance and superb climbing performance on loose gravel but I wouldn’t use it for XC racing because a derailleur would save me a little under two kilos and 10w on the belt drive.
In my experience you can shift the Pinion under load, almost. If you apply some of the pressure on the shifter but not enough to actually shift, and you then apply the rest of the pressure when you are going from pushing on one pedal to the other, the shift is smooth and fast. I say almost because you have to hit that sweet spot between pressing on one pedal and shifting to press down on the other. Sounds complicated and fiddly, but, if you try it for a bit, you get used to it pretty fast.
Pinion now got a Trigger shift option available👍
Pinion may be to bottom bracket gearboxes as Rohloff is to geared hubs. Both are highly complex, heavy, expensive, supremely well-engineered as well as carefully manufactured.
There are more than a few competitors, only one of which (Effigear) appears to require a customized bike frame/bottom bracket shell. Those affordable, bottom-bracket-based gearboxes are:
1. Schlumpf (owned now by Haberstock Mobility)
2. Efneo (distributed by Trident Trikes...for some reason relating to trikes ?)
3. Paterson (as in the S in SRAM), which Sam Paterson sold to FSA (and seems to have disappeared)
4. Another one whose name I forget at the moment
Using the Sclumpf/Haberstock (with their peculiar, lever-activated button to change gear ranges) or Efneo (small Polish company with limited distribution) along with a Gates Carbon Belt connected to a Shimano Nexus (or Alfine) 8-speed hub appears to be an affordable (< $900)conversion possibility from the century-old derailleur/chain/cassette (DCC) kludge !
We shall see...as I slowly lose faith in ANY upright bicycle riding ergonomics (regardless of FitKit or other measurements systems) and focus on semi-recumbent, feet-forward-and-down variants of the RANS Fusion as well as the CruzBike T-50 for conversions.
I always ruled out gearboxes because I prefer drop-bars on my Salsa Fargo. Now that they have a click-shift (STI-type) level system available, I am looking to find a Fargo-like setup that uses this system. I HATE riding in dust or mud and having problems with the chain and re-deraileur, trying to make adjustments to stop imperfect shifting and grinding, etc. This just looks like the perfect, iphone type option (some trade-offs, but it just works and you don't have to fiddle with it). Appreciated the review.
Really Great review Neil!! Thanks.
I have a c1.9XR. I find that the larger gear steps are no great problem in fact I do not see value in having big numbers of small steps. For touring and city riding those bigger steps are fine. And when you want to make a big change it requires less movement of the twist shift.
It’s funny how older these videos are😂🪵⚒️🪨🌲🏔️
I have kinda been obsessed by the gearbox concept as I am a Trailbuilder in Southern Oregon.
The problem or difficulty is finding one to test ride as a full suspension Mountain Bike and have reached out to Zerode in NZ small company love em but they are limited and I love all the small companies trying to survive 🤷♂️
There is currently a Gates belt challenge to the first riders that can win a World Cup race of course that’s Gates and I guess doesn’t necessarily mean it’s aboard a Pinion.
I definitely want one for sure the entire concept screams out to what we do here in austere conditions and miles from camp building so if anyone knows of availability of these beauties something we are missing (we do understand money talks bullshit walks😂🤷♂️) please do lend us an ear.
Anyway thanks much great video!!🚵♀️🪵⚒️🌲🪨🏔️see ya on the trails!
Shoutout to Priority Bikes too
Ah, damn, that one totally escaped me.
Thanks for this review Neil, very informative! I've been riding a custom RollingDale 29'er with Pinion C1:12 and Gates Carbon Drive since early 2020. Not sure how much you played around with the non-sequential shifting while riding technical singletrack. My experience is that advantage is superior to a derailleur. Moving the Pinion shifter to the front brake side of the handlebars also opens up new possibilities, particularly when hammering on rolling terrain. You mentioned belt noise as an intermittent issue. I've found using the Gates Carbon Drive belt tuning app to be extremely helpful to get the correct tension...usually more tension to eliminate noise and "soft pedals". RollingDale-Pinion-Carbon Drive long-term review is titled Finding N+0 at Bikepackers Foundry. Cheers ... Guy
I have a priority 600 and a 2x10 29er hardtail. I really like the 600 but I am noticeably slower on the 600. My husband can tell the difference when we are riding together. I think part of it is the 650b wheels vs the 29" wheels. I do love the gear range and being able to shift while stopped. The 600 also has a hub generator on the front. I'm thinking about replacing that wheel and seeing if this helps. I really don't use the generator except for the headlight.
I replaced the front wheel with a 29" wheel we already had. It is a definite improvement on the speed of the bike. The rear wheel is still the original 650b.
thanks Neil, I would have one today if they were cheaper, Alee runs his quite slack and says he has no problems with it, love your vids
Denham also rides a Koga with a super stiff frame. The average bikepacking bike has a lot more flex, so you likely need to keep the belt tension higher to avoid issues.
@@crafty_matt hello, thanks for the insight, makes sense
I had an extended test ride on a Zerode a few years ago. I can live with almost all of the system foibles but the two that killed it for me was the low points of engagement and the effort needed on the twist shifter. The effect of mass centralisation on the rear suspension was very beneficial. But oh that backlash.
My daily commuter for past 3 years has been Tout Terrain with P1.12. Weight and low POE are the main drawbacks. Pinion customer support is great and they will send you loaner gearbox for free if any factory service required. P line has 5yr warranty, C line has 3yr warranty (upgradeable to 5yr and prob worth it if you are tough on bikes or ride lots of miles)
Very good inspirational video documentary.....!
I've never tried a pinion geared bike, but friends of mine have also talked about the noise it makes, and hotel bar soap fixes it. Apparently they keep it in a handy spot so they can whip it out whenever it starts to make noise, which is not all that often from what they've told me.
A soap bar rubbed on the belt does reduce noise from dust. IME it works better than silicone spray. The silicone spray needs to be re-applied more often. Plus for touring the soap packs much easier.
@@TheOutsidePerks I agree. And the soap is a lot less hassle than touring with chain lube.
At 59 I'm not as wild as you guys I guess , I prefer the Rohloff with a chain & it's never let me down .
WELL DONE REVIEW...As an avid retired amateur XC / Endurance Racer approaching my 60s, this intrigues me and others seeking a minimalist crossover insight, as my buddies regularly say the overall weight state has no bearing on the substantive ride, making a difference for me. In addition, I would instead focus on what time I have left to be able to ride rather than maintain the bike. I'm curious: do you think the application may ever be paired with a battery to compete vs. the SL Piggy E-bikes?
Amazing analysis!
When comparing the weight with a “normal” drivetrain one also has to take into consideration that the gearbox is also replacing the bottom bracket shell and a few centimeters of down tube, seat tube and chainstays, which on a steel bike may very well be around half a kilo, so the real weight difference may not be that big in the end…
I've had my Priority 600X for a little over a year now and I have yet to do any big tours on it but after over 500 miles I haven't had to do a single thing to the drivetrain.
The real question will come after some big tours and several thousand miles. But we all know what Duzer thinks. I'd like to try the 600X, but wouldn't buy without a test ride. The concerns that Neil calls out all seem like they'd be easily manageable, especially given the lower maintenance. Seems like a good tradeoff to me.
I drool at each view/ hearing about the pinion g,
Great stuff! A revisit with Pinion would be nice with their new electronic shifting system! Also to see if Gates has come up with an answer to the “stretch” on their belts…for those that like to hammer the pedals😂
I guess that feeling stretch or spring feeling was from the Onyx hub. Hopefully I can get another Pinion bike to test.
@@BIKEPACKINGcom oh wow! Wasn’t expecting any “give” in the system there …German engineering rides close with the laws of physics 🤣
Hi, to address the noice off the belt, I noticed you used a 32 T ‘chainring’ with a 32 T sprocket. That’s something that Gates does not recommend (the same dimension off the 2 sprockets). In conjunction with the dust and grime this could be the reason for the loud noises the transmission produces.
Would be great to see a review on the Effigear Mimic and a comparison with the Pinion 🙏
I just recently seen this on the surly moonlander v2 great invention and ideal in the fatbike world
Enjoyed this video. I will be putting a c 1.6 on my recumbent trike today. Looking forward to it.
As far as the squeaky belt goes, has anyone suggested using a belt dressing? It is something that is done on mechanical equipment all of the time.
love the pinion! have a 9 speed on a zerode MTB and a 12 speed on a nua luna.
I contacted my bike vendor about this, the squeaks are from static electricity build up on the dust.
I notice it more on my MTB than my commuting bike. probably because the MTB has a plastic belt tensioner.
i agree it can be annoying, esp. when you are used to a quiet bike the noise is frustrating. minimise it using silicon spray, or just a bit of water on the belt.
I LOVE my Santos Travelmaster 3+ Pinion 1.18 with Onyx rear hub
Pinion P1.18: 636% transmission range.
Rohloff SpeedHub 500/14: 526% transmission range
I have it on my road bike and I like it. Not sure how it would get implemented on a full suspension bike. There is the matter of chain lengthening. Effie Gear (France) makes a similar box with a separate output shaft. This could be used to create a high pivot frame but might still need some belt tensioner system. Not mentioned was the price. With so much rain around here I am glad to have the P18. My squishy bike (Ibis) has a traditional derailleur. I will upgrade it to the new “transmission” by schram, along with a waxed chain.
With the new electronic shifting on the Pinion, I would expect to see these rigs in the longer endurance races like the Tour Divide. I guess you need to weigh the slight increase in transmission drag losses compared to the likelihood of a bad mechanical fail from a regular drivetrain.
My next bike will definitely be built with a pinion gear box. But I have to wait until I worn down my current bikes.
I bicycle tour, like from the US to Panama on my last tour, and my chain and the derailleur are the biggest pain, next is flats but if I take a wheel size that is common there, like 26", that isn't a problem. I am looking at a few bikes with Pinion for my next upgrade.
For a 26" bike with Pinion, look at the Co-Motion Pangea as a possibility
The gates belt does not stretch or flex. that movement you went on about was the rear hub. PINION H3 HYBRID HUBS. Shifting The Rohloff or the Pinion is quicker and just takes getting used to. Shifting under pressure with a derailleur works because of Intentional design. I destroyed an old school derailleur once by not letting up on the pedal pressure. The Rohloff and Pinion can be shifted under pressure and you wont easily due harm doing so. Priority bicycles offers the 12 speed Pinion on three models. The newest one that is on a pre order has an electric thumb shifter.
6:45 Yes the belt lasts about 15-30k km's. BUT you need to change the belt AND the chainring and the cog. Always change them all. It's about 300€ or more here in the EU.
Very subtle, plugging a Kitsbow tshirt just when the brand is shutting down ;)
Can you review an internal geared hub based system? I’m so tired of cleaning cassettes. Great review!
I think reviewers of the gates carbon drive really should try it also with a single-speed bike. If you are accustomed to riding a derailleur you most likely will mix some of the traits of the igh or gearbox to be features of the belt itself. I also have the gates belt but with a duomatic hub. So it's almost like riding a single-speed. The belt has ZERO flex and if there is any increased drag over a chain it is very unnoticeable.
I have not tried the pinion gearbox. They are rare around here but there are tons of bikes with the enviolo hub and gates. Especially with that combo people do say things like the belt is spongy or draggy. When in fact those are the traits of the enviolo hub.
One thing i dislike about these gearhubs (apart from the pricing) is that they don't really accommodate dropbar shifters. But yeah, as long as one of these hubs cost more than my whole bike, i don't really have to worry about them too much.
Neil, I'm curious if you've pedaled an onyx hub with a chain drivetrain in the past. I ask because the springiness you described sounds exactly like how it feels to pedal an onyx hub. The sprage clutch has a little bit of flex and it's most notable when you're in a very low gear ratio. When I have my drivetrain in the 52 tooth cock on the back with a 32 tooth on the front. If I stand on the pedals I can make my cranks rotate somewhere between 5 and 10°. I emailed onyx about this and they said it's inherent to the system.
This is a good and important point - I tested an Onyx hub with my Pinion and the springiness / spongyness was due to the high torque of the gearbox against the (single row) Spragg clutch. For me it was not ridable long term - I switched back to a 54-tooth DT ratchet hub and it feels much more direct with minimal impact on engagement. I was told the double row Spragg clutch system found on some of the Onyx models might not "load up" so much, but I've not tried them. I have read from others that their Onyx experience with Pinion was very positive, so maybe there is something to it.
Trigger shifters for flatbar for Pinion would be a great option!!!