Why the Fall of the Empire (and Jakku) MAKES NO SENSE | Star Wars Canon Lore
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- Опубликовано: 14 окт 2024
- The fall of the Empire, the loss of their Star Destroyer, and their eventual loss at the Battle of Jakku really makes no sense. We'll cover that and more on today's Star Wars Canon lore episode!
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Empire: **Hears of the Emperor’s death.**
Imperial fleet: **Explodes**
So basically . . . it was an old-school RTS and Palpatine ragequit.
Freddie Prince, Jr.: "Its not like a video game!!!"
*Disney Star Wars isn't Canon anymore!*
they all just fall over and die like the orcs in LOTR
Maybe the fleet isn't as loyal when Lightning fingers is dead. A Chokey McChokeface is dead as well. I didn't burn my books.
Legends has a weaker Rebellion slowly defeating the enormous Empire. While doing that, they eventually become the well-equipped New Republic.
Canon has the Rebels instantly defeat the Empire and become the New Republic, then 30 years later the Rebels are suddenly weaker than ever.
Yeah makes total sense.
Yep that pretty much sums up their LAZY storytelling.
Yeah and for some reason the new Republic and the resistance is weaker
@ANTHONY THOMAS And the first order is the most trash Imperial Faction ever
Such a mockery of the universe
But it has more women, though
I agree. I prefer "Legends" handling of the breakup of the Empire because it actually makes sense. The death of the Emperor broke apart the Empire (as he is what held it together as one entity), but that doesn't mean it just vanishes or massively depletes in strength the moment he dies. There were clearly many men similar to Tarkin in positions of power that wouldn't just be like "Oh well the Emperor died time to surrender to the people!" They would take their power and carve out whatever they could.
@Damia Savon Palpatine was not depicted as all-powerful in the EU. He comes back, gets people together at a secret base that you know a guy who builds Death Stars (and isn't on them immediately upon completion) has, proceeds to lose to two barely knowledgeable about the force children of the guy who threw him down an elevator shaft, gets his clones sabotaged, and then dies unceremoniously via a shot to the back... Ultimately losing an incredible amount of resources and manpower in a fruitless campaign. In fact, his most significant ability, force storm, is actually what destroys his incredibly OP ship and eliminates his best clone body. You could make the argument that him being as powerful a force user as he was was actually a disadvantage, and not in fact an advantage at all.
@@Tyrantofthewind I still like that Han finally got to kill a big bad. Rarely got to do that in the EU
@@educatedcockroach Not personally no, but he did kill Zsinj in the Millennium Falcon.
@@Tyrantofthewind Oh yeah forgot about that. Only read Courtship of Princess Leia once a long time ago, didn't care for it.
@@Tyrantofthewind Funny thing is, over all it was not the Rebels or the Skywalker/ Solo family that brought the Emperor down. It was his own body guard staff and cloning doctor.
A planetary EMP will take out Vader.
It makes perfect sense actually, just think about it.... Anakin broke the Empire's heart when he went back to the light side of the force. The Empire lost the will to live, and died of sadness.
Hmm. Sounds about right for canon
I just can't lol
Anakin always breaking hearts
Well if you put all your money into big space flets, and no into medical science,.... Such explanations start making sense
No jokes please.
Why would they remove the warlord era? It was fun and made sense.
There are still warlords but aren't that big( something that we will see in the Mandalorian)
Because it was fun and made sense.
As a lover of history the warlord era makes so much sense, it's what happens when a centralised military and state loses it's head without a (strong) heir.
Ancient Macedonia and early 20th Century China being the obvious two.
@@SirFrankieCrisp94 And the very recent fall of the Iraqi government, and the vacuum left, allowing for the rise of ISIS.
@@SirFrankieCrisp94
Exactly. We are talking about a military that is established galaxy-wide, there will be a significant portion of high-ranking power-hungry moffs that will see this as an opportunity to seize power.
Even if by Palpatine's contingency orders to regroup in the Unknown Regions, I don't think that those power-hungry moffs would follow orders of a now-dead leader. (Considering that it is fear that keeps everyone in check, what's to fear of a dead man?)
Wow, never realized that they had the Empire...."Fall" within a span of...a freakin year? Who in the hell decided that? D & D?
Jimmy Rustles when I read through the aftermath trilogy it didn’t appear to me that the battle of Jakku happened one year after Endor....I want to verify that he’s right about that...
A year is an eternity for people who write villain of the week comics.
They used a d50 and the result was how many years they took off of the legends number for the decline 😂
I think we call them 2D now to not further disparage the table top game and to besmirch the complexity of their work.
@Star Trek Theory I mean I think he's referencing the form the story is dispersed in, it is comic heck even the old legends lore have a lot if not mostly made of comics depending depending on definition
I find it hard to believe that not only did the Empire fall in just one year (from the Battle Of Endor to the Battle Of Jakku) but that the Rebellion was able to restructure itself into the New Republic. It just does not make sense in terms of scale.
Liam Walsh that’s the power of the Mouse
Liam Walsh more the reason to hate Disney, they’re lazy in their writing.
This is one of the reasons why i don't follow Canon anymore. The universe progresses itself too unnaturally childish.
Let's not forget that a significant number of high-ranking moffs are power-mongers. There are definitely not going to surrender just because Palpatine died.
In fact, they'll see this as an opportunity to seize power. So the fact that the Empire fell and the New Republic was fully formed in just a year is weird.
And that the rebellion was able to restructure itself into the New Republic while still being in now a full scale war with the Empire.
Well, in Legends the standing of New Republic at 5 ABY is hard to believe.
It can be a real and significant power, but, I belive, in Legengs and in Canon, it is best to create the dozens of new states and empires. Not just the 2 galactic goverment, but up to 8 or 10 powerfull galactic powers.
You make an absolutely valid point. Unless crushed by another empire, empires take years, perhaps hundreds of years to fail. The Persians, Egyptians, Romans and even the British empire didn't really fall as much as dissolved.
not always some empire are a flash in the pan
But then we have the Aztecs as another example.
@@treystewart731 the Aztecs were crushed by another empire, and were considerably smaller than Spain.
ancient empires could die pretty quickly through a break down of bureaucracy. the bureaucracy in the sw universe seems pretty self sustained though. i'd expect the empire to go corrupt and break into smaller factions.
@@hybridh9702
My suspicion is that Palpatine had fanatic supporters of the Empire embedded in the Navy as "political officers".
Their role would be to watch over commanders' action to spot "ideological problems". Then formally remove them from the chain of command or do the same informally or, in extreme cases, destroy the ship.
Let me answer your question with a question sir: Has the new trilogy/canon handled anything well?
I prefer Rogue One's version of the Death Star plans to the old canon comic version.
@@CarzorStelatis I will not stand for the erasure of Kyle Katarn! *Slaps with white glove*
I can answer that question let me put it this way Spaceballs beat them all
the problem that Disney had was the direction they chose right at the start the D canonize all the lore all they had to do was turn the Lord into a movie and not make it legends no one wants to see some woke bulshit especially when there's a pre-existing universe and books comics games.
mark towry I would rather have Spaceballs cannon than sequels
the EU makes way more sense, most of imperial loses were to infighting between warlords, the rebel were essential like carrion birds grabing the what they could from under their noses
Sound like republic is the bad guy
@@lindada4495 well they are rebel scum
Linda Da You know they had to do it to 'em.
@@lindada4495 Bad guy?
Just playing it strategic, getting your enemies to destroy each other while you grab what you can an build up.
Still possible for them to have infighting occurring, even possible for there to be some huge intra-Imperial engagements for dominance, especially between the Grand Admirals, in the new cannon.
The empire just lost the will to live.
Oobah
Yeah but even suicidal Star Destroyer captains are piloting some of the most dangerous and powerful ships in the galaxy.
Unless thousands of of Star Destroyers just yeeted themselves into the nearest sun...
Just like Padme
It died of *sad*
burn!
When will he admit that it’s because new canon is badly written
At this point, I think most content creators relying on star wars for substance are considering new topics
Justin Barnes It won’t happen just yet, but I think you’re right. People are gonna start fading away.
He probably knows. But blatantly criticizing something like that invites huge argumentation, which I’m sure he tries to avoid
@@DuoXCity I read a week or so ago that James Luceno has stopped writing Star Wars stuff
The High Republic mess showed how screwed up Disney took plans, plots.
Disney doesn’t even listen to their own lore. They establish that the Empire finally fell at Jakku. Then in Rise of Skywalker, someone (Poe or Finn) refers to Endor as the place where “the last war ended”.
They’re vomiting up lore for a multimedia franchise yet retaining none of it. So why should anyone care and more importantly why would anyone actually buy this supplementary material that’s only canon until the next batch of scriptwriters is hired.
In fairness, character dialogue doesn't always need to be taken as fact. They could be referring to it as the deciding battle rather than its literal conclusion.
@Muhammad Iqbal Characters being perfectly straightforward and reliable when relaying past events is immersion breaking? Wondering why a character might know this information is jarring? If the sequels were good then stuff like this would be getting them theory videos instead of hate and dumb rants.
Hate what's worth hating. Not a single line in a script *which can be interpreted* or any sequence of events that isn't explained within 5 minutes.
Yeah ,but in rise of Skywalker "somehow" Palpatine returns
The Mandalorian will be the only Canon post-endor media in my book. Sequels and the Aftermath can get burned in a fire
They’re not at all “vomiting up” lore AT ALL it could make sense to have a overall final battle of the empire to take place in Jakku entirely. You just have to understand it doesn’t mean the ENTIRE sets of the empire ends right there, just the massive scope so overall it does make sense for it to end at Jakku for the most part.
Absolutely agree that the 1 year downfall is ludicrous, and my least favorite idea of the new canon. Not only is it completely unreasonable from every military and logistical angle, but it also makes the birth of the New Republic from that feel... Unearned?
The new canon falls apart in most ways when looked at closely. There's a lot of giant plot holes and broken logic.
I agree that the new Republic doesn't feel right. They're too cocky and unprepared considering they're the old Rebellion. The Empire's "downfall", however, is fine. The First Order is obviously the truth of what happened. The Empire hid itself and either burned the rest or let it fall on Jakku (a red herring, if you will), and it worked. It worked a little too well, but it does make some sense.
Its fine, the new republic is destroyed like instantly off screen during TLJ
One big thing that feels weird with the new canon is that the Empire seems to do nothing. The New Republic is going with a demilitarized doctrine to show that they are not the empire, but as scant and meager as their forces seem to be, two maybe three well armed, decently commanded ISDs would wreck so much havoc. The Peace Keeping force the NR would need just to keep things stable would be larger than the military shown.
Historically, when an empire falls, it devolves into a warlord era for a time. One of hte best examples of this is China's Romance of the Three Kingdoms. Which a Star Wars version of that would be EPIC. The number of factions post Endor doesnt make much sense. The entire empire either defects to the New Republic or goose-steps to the First Order? No criminal organizations try carving out territory for themselves with the Republic demilitarizing?
@@isaacgraff8288 - Agree with the historical context. The character Mon Mothma saw the Empire as an illegal military junta occupying the Galactic Government, which is a very good plot for a loyalist rebellion to restore the previous government. The only thing that held the Confederacy of Independent Systems in the former Galactic Republic was the Galactic Empire. If the Empire fell a more likely scenario would be The Alliance to Restore the Republic, being a loyalist organization would supersede the Imperial government (since many functionaries had been part of the republic), territories of Confederacy would demand independence, along with other Outer Rim territories that would or wouldn't have Imperial governors. Leaving a smaller New Republic then before the Clone Wars.
I agree. I still dont get how a MASSIVE empire could fall in just 1 year. Rome didnt fall in one year. It took many....MANY bad choices for them to finally fall....
Plus the amount of starships. Where did they all go???
Disney screwed up but several warlords still survived. The Mandalorian will show us a warlord that held out 5 years later
They think empire is dumb,without Palpatine they screwed.I mean those officer joined the empire not for nothing.
jonathan Kromrey from what the new canon seems to illustrate is that the empire wasn’t meant to survive without palpatine. So basically you could chop it down to is that without palpatine everyone else was either legendarily incompetent (aside from thrawn who’s MIA and tarkin who’s dead) or there was no plans set in place in the event that palpatine died (which is more likely seeing as he was arrogant).
'Plus the amount of starships. Where did they all go???' - They were all force-whisked away, with all of their commanders in force-hybernation, waiting for the day when their master arose from the grave to call them to battle once more.
It's actually something that makes more sense than rags from the fringe taking over everybody with all the resources, ships, and men successfully while the victorious New Republic just let all of their hard w*rk go to pot.
Jay Ferguson
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The old canon is much better with the war lasting another 20-25 years and the Rebel Alliance lets the Imperial warlords fight amongst themselves and the New Republic follows a strategy of killing off one warlord at a time which works until Thrawn appears and pushes the New Republic back a good ways then is killed then Palpatine's clone continues where Thrawn left off until he too is killed then this allows the New Republic to advance to victory.
There was even 1 or 2 star destroyers and it's crew that defected to the republic's side .
It made sense that some would go rouge wanting power for themselves and fight against others
Except that palpatine clone thing , i like everything what happened in legends
I also like that it results in a weird transformation within the Empire as people who believed in the Poster version of the Empire end up in power and swing the Empire that way resulting the Fel Dynasty down the line. I always kind of wanted to see the Fel Dynasty take on the First Order and beat the piss out of them.
Personally, I would've had the war continue 5 years after Endor. That way, you could still have conflict with antagonists like Thrawn, while the First Order's founders sneak off to play the long game.
@@harsha8964 Oddly enough if I remember correctly it wasn't entirely a clone. Sure he had clone bodies, but they were essentially empty husks that his spirit could inhabit. The bodies just had the tendencies to burn out rather quickly.
Not defending that aspect, just pointing out. I could be wrong though.
Christ it gets old hearing "but the imperial ships were poorly commanded"
maxout214226 You’d think the shit commanded ones would have been sniped easily early on
Even in Disney Canon they still had some good commanders. Ciena Ree for example (Novel Lost Stars). So basically Disney is disproving their own explanation ^^
@@rewesicherheitsdienst1018 They do that all the time. Palpatine's whole scorched earth policy for the Empire after his death in Aftermath is retconned by supplementary material for The Last Jedi that said The First Order ships were part of a contingency after his death. Of that also raises the question of why he didn't the decades ahead of their ships to fight the Rebels.
How does that argument make any sense in the first place? I'm not particularly well-versed in Star Wars lore, but I'd imagine the ship commanders, admirals and the like were put through extensive training to ensure their _expensive military hardware_ couldn't be dispatched by a few ragtag numpties who had about ten years of experience between them.
Hell, bloody Anakin Skywalker was present, you'd think he'd ensure the fighter pilots could do their jobs, or teach the people in charge how to train their underlings at the very least.
@@Lord_Numpty Legends offers a better explanation for this as usual. Some officers from both the Imperial Army and Navy were incompetent and managed to get to the rank of Admiral or General simply because of they were politically well-connected, such as Admiral Ozzel, but in addition to being the exception to the rule, they didn't tend to live to see post-Endor period of the Galactic Civil War. The real issue the Empire had was that they lost some of their best officers as well. The first chapter of Heir to the Empire established that given Vader's rather high standards for success, the officers on board the Executor had to either extremely lucky or extremely hyper-competent to serve onboard for any meaning full period of time. So in other words the Empire lost some of their best officers when the Executor was destroyed and that is not even hundreds of thousands of officers that were on both Death Stars.
This is like if the Untied States won its War for Independence then immediately turned around and completely dismantled the British Colonial Empire
Yeah but this wasn't the battle for independence of just one planet. This was the defeat of the core of an empire and its top command structure. When the USSR collapsed it fell apart rapidly in a matter of weeks when one satellite country saw the opportunity to declare independence, the world waited on the edge of its seats, as we all expected to hear that the USSR army would swoop in and take them back. But days went by and that didn't happen and the world at large suddenly came to the startling realization that the world's biggest army was completely bankrupt. So all the other satellite countries that comprised the USSR all began declaring independence one by one. We thought it was impossible. The world was in a complete state of shock. Anyone who lived through the fall of the USSR would have no difficulty imagining this on a galactic level.
While your point is a good one you have over looked something. The empire was headless not bankrupt, and had many grand moffs left. It should have been more like the Greek empire after the death of Alexander the great, breaking into a loose coalition of smaller regions and those regions fully in command of the assets and resources in that region.
@@codius_dak5095 Who's not to say it didn't become bankrupt. There have been many who theorized that bankruptcy absolutely would have been the most likely result of the destruction of the death star. They have estimated that the cost of the Death Star would be equivalent to 13000 times the entire GDP of Earth. And we now know from Mandalorian that imperial credits are now worthless. So while your comparison to the fall of the greek empire is an interesting one, the greek empire existed before the creation of central banking, I'm not sure its a fair comparison.
I think the problem here on this thread are people viewing this issue from the perspective of video gamers who are used to having to kill every unit in a game. Life doesn't work that way. The collapse of the USSR is the best example. the USA beat the USSR without firing a single weapon. we didn't need to destroy or take over every missile silo, nor get the surrender of every solider. Once there was disarray in the ranks everything just fell apart seemingly over night. If you are old enough to remember this you know what i'm talking about. The whole planet was in a complete state of shock. It was unimaginable and yet it happened.
@@FablestoneSeries Imperial credits are worthless because the government that backed the currency ( Empire )doesn't exist anymore- not because they were bankrupt.
The empire had many systems who were loyal to them and benighted from them while the empire would have turned into chaos there would still be the moffs and there sector control so while the rebels may have destroyed hundreds of ships at jakku the empire had thousands more the only way the rebels could have one was with infighting after Palpy dies which happens in legends and them freeing key systems even then it would be bloody as warlords would have fought them take the three kingdoms in China may not be real but when the dynasty collapsed they split into warlords say that another non Chinese’s faction who had just been fighting them now starts fighting the warlords it would take years to take over China because of the warlords ( the three kingdoms is not exactly like The empire but is close)
"A massive navy amassed over 2 decades cannot be destroyed that fast"
*CRIES IN CARTHAGINIAN*
El Presidente this is exactly what I am thinking. It’s like this guy making the video has no idea of Roman history
@@isaiahandrews442 oh yes, because the Roman Empire was completely destroyed in one year ... Yeah right
Fernando Navia who the fuck said the Empire was destroyed in 1 year? How many movies are there?
Isaiah Andrews have you even watch the video? 😂
@Damia Savon ... Are You really this dumb? Read the comment i replied ... He was talking about Roman history
The Aftermath books by Chuck Wendig, with such lines as...
“‘The TIE wibbles and wobbles through the air, careening drunkenly across the Myrrann rooftops - it zigzags herkily-jerkily out of sight.’
But hey theres that or the new books with a whole section of the characters farting
What-
@@aureliusrex7827 yep that's a legitimate line in the book... The sequels still suck.
Yes Google starwars fart wedding. It's cannon
i'd ask if a child wrote this...but to be honest a child would do better.
My God.
Post-Endor Legends: A long and drawn out conflict spanning several book series and comics that lasts over 15 years.
Post-Endor Canon: COWABUNGA IT IS
Edit: Holy shit this blew up. Thanks for the likes guys.
@Palpatine McSenateFace And yet they still did for years after.
@Palpatine McSenateFace Even then, it still continues to exist in legends.
@Palpatine McSenateFace good point I forgot about that.
Also I love your username. That's hilarious.
The Empire taking that long to defeat kind of doesn't make sense with the end of Return of the Jedi. Especially the Special Edition ending with the whole galaxy celebrating.
@Palpatine McSenateFace A remnant that none the less takes an important role in Legends continuity, and it eventually reorganizes into a new Empire.
"This makes no sense" - pretty much sums up the entire so called sequels. There is no story, no logic, no continuity, no creativity and no characters. They could have and should have used George's sequel scripts.
It's sad how true this is. Sad to see such a good IP ruined by Disney
I dunno, the story/logic/characters in the prequels weren't great either and Lucas pretty much had full control of those. Lucas created a great, simple story in the original trilogy where we didn't need to know anything beyond the basic "big empire bad, scrappy rebels good". I'd argue that everything since that has tried to bring space-politics or history into the universe has been marginal at best.
FakeUserNameHere the prequels actual made sense and weren’t as bad as people tried to make it. Lore wise it ties in pretty good in explaining how the empire came to power. The prequels are not in the same category as the sequels, especially when u take all the extra media content like the clone wars show and novels/comics. In terms of world building it did fine
@@Eli-akad I have to disagree. Back when the prequels were released, plenty of us had pretty basic problems with the story and this was long before there were a million internet videos telling us what to think. Simple questons like, "Why was the Trade Federation risking so much to conspire with an unknown entity? What did they stand to gain?" and "Why were they trying to assassinate Amidala when they were using her to create dissension in the Senate?"
I do think they should have tried harder but they shouldn't have used Lucas scripts sense he intended to expand upon the medachlorians or however the hell u say it and basically expand upon everything we hated in the prequel trilogy
In addition to it not making sense, my issue is that compared to a prolonged war with rivaling warlords and all that legends gave us, a simple "they were unorganized and with the exception of some missing ships we killed them" is simply boring. To me, the struggle of both sides was one of the best things about star wars. Now it's just something that had to be done to get to the new movies. I want to like the new canon but is dull, it makes no sense and it repeatedly disappoints. Disney can say whatever they want but to me, legends is cannon and the "new cannon" is just Disney's own fanfiction.
The Empire taking decades to defeat after Return of the Jedi makes no sense. The implication is that that was the final battle. And especially in the Special Edition version, we see the entire galaxy celebrating.
@@Benjamin0119 If all of China celebrates the death of their leader, does that mean the military might behind china simply dies? or better yet, let's look at Rome, when after countless emperors are assassinated and have multiple civil wars, there is still an empire running amuck, eventually splitting, and only one falls "shortly" thereafter. That was the final battle in many ways, but not the end of the empire.
@@Benjamin0119 If you are the citizen of an oppressive regime and you learn that the dictator has been killed by a resistance that now stands in a position to fight back then, of course, you would celebrate. And yes the movies imply that the battle of Endor was "the final battle" because in a way it was. It was the final battle against a unified Empire under Palpatine. But that doesn't mean that the fight against the empire as a whole is over.
@@Neptune0404 I don't know, to me it undermines Return of the Jedi and robs that sense of victory from the heroes. When I see Han, Leia, Luke, Lando and everyone else happily celebrating at the end, I don't imagine them fighting years and years and years after this. It makes the movies themselves seem insignificant. Maybe the Empire takes a few more years to finally be put down, but decades? I don't know about that. And that's definitely not what George Lucas had in mind.
@@holocronhistorian Well, the Soviet Union suddenly fell, and a lot things went to crap after that, bases and such just being suddenly hastily abandoned. But there was a lead up to it of course.
Though you could say there was a definite lead up to the Empire's defeat at Endor, which is what the movies show. If the Empire was going to last longer than that, there would have been more movies made. But George decided to end it there. I mean, no fan who just watches the movies is going to get up after watching Return of the Jedi and think to themselves "oh yeah, this war is going to keep going on for decades!"
Not to mention there's like 6 people left in the resistance now.
@Ganz Bestimmt I didn't know D&D were writing the next one
@Ganz Bestimmt - you were right, tell your sister, you were riiiiight.
Yes, the empire would have 1000s of ships, space stations, sites, shipyards, supply lines.
@Star Trek Theory not really
@Ganz Bestimmt Funny how your comment held up.
Maybe Rey went back in time and mind tricked all the imperials to kill themselves and crash their ships.
........ *Face palm*
Nahhh
God help me, I could in-fact see someone like Darth Kennedy greenlighting that explanation.
In light of the last three Disney sequels, I find this solution more than plausible. Never in the Legends, but this new canon and movies are so full of shit that, well, why not
Lol
The New Republic realistic cannot have had reasonable reasons to believe that they could de-militarise. None. They had just defeated a Galactic Empire. A Galaxy-wide system of government. That fact alone should have been more sufficient reason to modernize and scale up the Alliance Navy to be at least comparable to the Clone Wars era.
Nicholas Lin the whole thing is a mess
The Empire's gone and the Republic pussed out. Time to start a galaxy wide criminal empire of people that want to get rich on the lack of force to keep us from doing anything we want.
And I also hate how perfect they made it for the New Republic after the war ended, as if they wouldn't have faced pirates, cartels, gangs, insurgencies, rebellions, and to a smaller scale infighting of their own.
Currently this is the most sensible problem/issue with the New Republic. Why would they demilitarise? Just why? Unless there’s some Palpatine/Sith espionage occurring. As such the Sith are still in control somehow? This would mean though that Palpatine was becoming unsatisfied with the Empire as it was, and required it to have some restructuring, so allowed and made it implode spectacularly making way for the First Order to presume military dominance...
Bioboy Palpatine with the 4D chess galaxy brain pro gamer move that's going end the Republic's whole career.
I love how Disney entrusted SO MUCH LORE to literally ONE GUY. A guy who was later FIRED. Lmao. Chuck fucking Wendig. It’s insane.
For the empire to loose 75% of their ships in a single year, it would mean that 18,750 ships were destroyed in that time.
If the rebels were destroying one star destroyer a day, they would need a whole 51 fleets.
And one a day is stupidity ambitious.
Not to mention that the Rebels would be loosing their own ships in these battles as well.
So my question would be how did the Rebels just magic up 51 fleets out of thin air.
Because Chuck the Fuck demanded it to be in 1 year
Apparently resources got so thin they replaced the Dura steel hulls with Tissue paper
The numbers get even worse when you consider that the 25,000 number is just the Star Destroyers (which for a galaxy spanning empire, that actually sounds like a relatively small number of Capital Ships). The Imperial Fleet as a whole was probably quite a bit larger if you count the various corvettes, frigates, cruisers and other supporting ships that also would have been a part of the war fleet.
Bad writing!!
dont forget that the empires warlords fighted eachother so the empire dystroyed its own ships
It's clear that anything before, between and after the sequel films are window dressing to handwave and explain away flaws. It's an afterthought. A jumbled mess. Which is funny. That was the key criticism levied against the EU. Yet they're quite happy to cherry pick from it when they need another idea to ruin.
Time for the Chewbacca defense.
*”THAT DOES NOT MAKE SENSE!”*
South Park
@Palpatine McSenateFace
LMFAO 😂😂😂😂😂
Good one
I like you hair
@Palpatine McSenateFace
OBJECTION! Your entire case revolved around the assumption that Chewbacca lives on Endor, which I will concede does not make sense. However, this is not the case, as Chewbacca is in fact a spacer, meaning that he spends a majority of time traveling between planets aboard a ship. As such, the defense has been pursuing a red herring this whole time, based on an unfounded and completely false assumption.
I've always wanted to say that in response to the OG Chewbacca Defense.
...ladies and gentlemen of this supposed jury, I have one final thing I want you to consider. Ladies and gentlemen, this is Chewbacca. Chewbacca is a Wookiee from the planet Kashyyyk. But Chewbacca lives on the planet Endor. Now think about it; that does not make sense!
The end of the Empire should be in a big battle over Coruscant, because that is where the imperial government resided, it should be an hecatombic war given this was the last stand of the Empire, with lots of ships and fighting on land, air and space. It would be perfect to develop it in a video game.
And a devastated Coruscant would explain the importance of the Hosnian system tot he New Republic in Episode 7
If you read the Aftermath books it makes it quite clear that though Coruscant is the official capital of the Empire, they have very little power, a good defence force but not a large enough outer-planetary significance now that the Empire was fractured.
I'd be down to see a second battle over Coursucant
@@MonkeyJedi99 well it was explained the capital of the Republic gets moved from planet to planet. It doesn't say how long a planet stays or why but if I was guessing most likely to deal with world enders have become more common.
That's always what I imagined when playing on Coruscant as the Rebel Alliance in Battlefront II 2005. The final battle to reclaim the heart of the Imperial government and a personal victory for Luke in reclaiming the Jedi Temple.
I watched this immediately after finishing Eckhart's video on how the empire lost 25,000 ships, which details the slow decline of the empire in the ~25 years after the battle of Yavin. The contrast is amazing. It's absolutely baffling how the empire was destroyed within a year, but the first order is such a massive threat that the heroes are the underdogs (which, of course, they only are because the First Order is essentially the Empire 2 and the Resistance is the Rebellion 2). The First Order should've remained the small, but highly powerful secretive enclave it was depicted as in the first sequel movie. They should've been small, but their forces built extremely tall.
Instead of thinking of the FO as the Empire 2.0, even though that was their intent, think of them more as the KKK in the decades after the Civil War. During that time, the KKK didn't always act overtly. Instead, its power laid in the fact that they had members in positions of power within the active government. There were states, like Indiana, where the most powerful elected positions were held by KKK members who weren't open about the fact that they were KKK members. We see hints of this in Bloodlines and it's more explicitly stated, though no hard numbers given, in the Battlefront II campaign DLC "Resurrection". In that, there's a line that says that the FO "already controls that many worlds". It's posed as a question, but it implies that the FO has used the decades between Jakku and TFA to quietly take over and build its power.
I think they could have accomplished so much better world building by reducing the FO to the Supremacy fleet from TLJ (with the Supremacy being an old Imperial vessel), and 1 superweapon.
Only the superweapon isn't planet size, it's something they've found.
Rebels still the underdog after the superweapon takes out the New Republic, but the FO doesn't suddenly seem to have more resources than the empire.
To this day I still shake my head in disbelief: The EU was really killed for this?
The EU is not killed. It lives and shows the future of SW without S(J)W Disney.
:'(
Wow. For a second there, I processed that as European Union and got really confused.
@@speakerFTD as a kid growing up in the European Union it used to confuse the hell out of me too lol
@@Esvald It took me few seconds of confusion too.
“The fall of the empire doesn’t make sense”
Neither does the rest of the sequel trilogy
It does make sense
Lots of people are trying to find logical connections between the events that happen in the sequels, but the only connection is that those events were a bunch of random ideas that a conference room full of Disney analysts thought would make the most money in theatres, and then realised on film by a guy who hated star wars and its fans.
Yes this is something I said only a couple of minutes in to Force Awakens 4 years ago. Nothing makes sense in that film. Not only does it not fit the previous 6 films but it also doesn't make sense internally. I realized the filmmakers and writers didn't care about consistency as much as they cared about ticking focus group boxes.
Nor does TCW
i love how the first reply is the one sequel fan who comes like "but itz good" and then everyone else overwhelmingly and reasonably agrees that the sequels are shit
The worldbuilding post-Return of the Jedi in Disney canon has been abysmal.
Wanted to post this exact comment. I don't understand how much money can be thrown at something and no one tries to make any sense of the world building. Fine - you want to redo A New Hope - earn it!
"This makes no sense" - pretty much sums up the entire so called sequels. There is no story, no logic, no continuity, no creativity and no characters. They could have and should have used George's sequel scripts.
ROTJ wasn't great and the prequels were terrible in many ways. At least the new films are good.
@@alexnorth3393, the prequels weren't good. But, they were better than these sequels.
@@alexnorth3393 people hated ROTJ solely based on the ewoks and though the prequels are terrible, they had a story, developed characters and a plot.
This is worse due to the fact that everyone got the wrong message on why the prequels were bad (aesthetics, lightsaber duels and the millenium falcon) and not the real issues.
The question I have is how could the New Republic even assemble that many ships that it could launch such an aggressive campaign against the Empire? Especially when the Empire was still sitting there with Kuat shipyards pumping out Star Destroyers by the fleet
Its almost like it's written by employees who don't care about the subject.
fr
But why would they do that that's just asking for bad writing
Thats what happens when you let writers with an pre existing woke agenda to write it, and it isn't that bad, having women jedi or something like, who cares, issue is their priority was to tell a political message over writing a cohesive timeline with rules that could be understood and followed and respected by fans, issue is these people didn't care at all, sized everything up absurdly, this sequel trilogy is the epitome is lazy, uncaring, stupid, Agenda filled. Bad writing. It's a tragedy for that. The one spot we had to write write a SEQUEL the most iconic bits of star wars lore, and these idiots do it the stupiditest way possible. They honestly should have hired neil blondcamps studio. I promise you he could've done a better job as world building is that he consistently excels at.
@@notaserialkiller4211 cause they want to wrap it up quick and don't know understand anything about military
Personally, i think the slow fracturing into Warlod reigned splinter factions is much more plausible.
After all, the Emperor DID give the local governors more power after dissolving the senate in Episode IV A new Hope.
This is, from my perspective, also the foundation of that whole fracturation and the Warlords we see in SW Legends.
Everyone in power tries to preserve what they have and increase it if they get a chance for it.
It's extremely lazy world building. An insult to the fans.
As a fan, I say fuck the fans. We're schizophrenic at our best and should never be catered to. I want my creators to create without my vitriol on their minds. It's up to me in the end to consume it or not.
@@user-kt4cg2fn7l Exactly!
@@user-kt4cg2fn7l The issue isn't that fans are schizophrenic, it's that you're dealing with large groups of people who all have competing and conflicting ideas about what's the best course of action for the creators to take. When you take all those differing view points together they come across as nonsensical because they're the views of many people (I don't even know how many for Star Wars) but if you were to talk to individual fans my guess is they as individuals would have a fairly cohesive and straightforward idea of what they would want from Star Wars, but that doesn't work when talking about fans as a whole.
Disney was so worried about making big bucks with the new trilogy, they basically remade episode V, with no regards whatsoever for world building. The saddest thing is they had a ton of material to work into the movies
@@lermi389 they copied episode 4 when they made 7. They inverted episode 5 when they made the abomination that is called 8. God help us when 9 comes out.
It doesnt even make sense that the Emperor would try to break the Empire up BECAUSE HE IS ALIVE!
In Legends he did it to weed out those that weren't sufficiently loyal to him, and have completel dominion upon his return.
Palpatines plan was self defeating, even if he had succeeded with the Dark Empire or First Order, he would _have to start again with conquest_ and building a much reduced Empire, with a lot of valuable worlds destroyed and a far more unstable populace, for his resurrection.
*A better option:*
Just have the Endor battle group keep fighting and destroy the Rebel fleet there, or at least _go down fighting_ taking much of the Rebel forces with them. The Empire could afford to lose all those ships, the Rebels couldn't.
Should the Empire prevail in orbit, once confirmed that the Imperial ground forces on Endor have been slaughtered or captured do a orbital bombardment of the whole region. At the least you'll kill any Imperial prisoners, saving them from being I̶m̶p̶r̶e̶g̶n̶a̶t̶e̶d̶ ̶b̶y̶ ̶X̶e̶n̶o̶m̶o̶r̶p̶h̶s̶ _eaten_ by killer Teddy bears.
The core Imperial worlds are still completely under control, along with the Imperial fleet. They dominate a major part of the Galaxy including its economic might and nearly all of the developed regions.
Retreat, consolidating and focusing your forces if necessary on the highly developed worlds, snuffing out any resistance, leaving the backwater planets to fester (they'll probably suffer pirate raids without Imperial patrols, and if the Rebels step in to protect them that will tie up vital forces).
But just do a Base Delta Zero of any prominent Rebel planets with a large battle group from among your *_over twenty three thousand ISD's_* currently left over.
Keep twenty two thousand for patrolling and a thousand for attacking seems reasonable [taking downtime for servicing from the 22,00].
Starting with any planets that are important to Rebel infrastructure and logistics such as the Mon Calamari 🍤. A Taskforce led by a few hundred ISD's should take care of them, which is a much better use of inventory than blowing your own ships up, even from just _a revenge standpoint._
*TL:DR*
Imperial headquarters in Corescant, the head of the bureaucracy hears that Palpatine and Vader are dead and opens the sealed envelope containing his will.
In it he says Thrawn is now in charge and the Royal guard answer to him personally. He has the full authority of the Emperor.
And here is a list of planets to get payback on.
*Fleet officer:* [looking at the list] Mon Cala - makes sense, Bespin, Tatooine? Why Tatooine? It's of no significant value, to either us or the Rebellion.
*Imperial official:* [reading over his shoulder] What's that handwritten notation next to it … _sand!_
…What?
..... honestly i wouldnt be surprised if something fascinating is under all the sand
Too bad they messed up so much that Thrawn dissappears at least until half a year after Endor
Aurora Uplinks
In legends it used to be a earth like planet that was destroyed by orbital bombardment hundreds of thousands of years ago, there’s probably some interesting technology buried in the rubble under the sand
I like the simplicity of the novelization of ROTJ -- the emperor and his dark energy is what bound the Empire together and with his death it went into disarray. Even on a practical level the infrastructure necessary to maintain even just a squadron of star destroyers would be massive and without it the fleets would wither on the vine, so to speak. And I don't think Palpatine would have a 'continuity of government' plan. It was all about him. He planned to live forever (~ish) and wasn't in this game to build an Empire that would survive his death for the sake of his ideology.
"This makes no sense" - pretty much sums up the entire so called sequels. There is no story, no logic, no continuity, no creativity and no characters. They could have and should have used George's sequel scripts.
I met a guy recently who worked for Lucasfilm/Arts (he worked on the team that designed GAR aesthetics) and he states many of the same points Eckhart makes.
Putting it bluntly Disney gutted the back stories of Star Wars. They seemed more interested in pumping out the movies rather than any world building. When they only half payed attention to what their own writers were doing (Dave Filoni for example) there were bound to be plotholes all over.
THANK YOU!!! I couldn't have put it better myself
Not paying attention to what their secondary writers were doing makes a lot of sense. I fail to see how anyone could have properly authorised Aftermath without it being properly scrutinised - after all, CW knocked the text out in three months (and it shows in the quality of plot, pacing and characterisation).
Author: Chuck Wendig
ohh that explains why it makes no sense and it sucks
He's a soy brained nutbag
I got into an argument with him about his political BS over Twitter, I said "I honestly follow you to get news on your Star Wars novels, not your opinions on Trump" his followers promptly attacked me lmfao. But a year or so later, guess who was right.
He blocked me lmfao
This x1000
D A S H
R Bricks if you just wanted news on his Star Wars novels, why did you follow his personal twitter account where he posts whatever he wants to?
Throwing out legends was the biggest mistake disney could have made
They threw it out so they could just Amy schemur it, steal from it and make it far worse.
The idea was great, just poorly executed. They had decades of quality content mixed in with decades of contradictory worse-than-fan-fiction content that they could pick and choose from then fill in the rest.
I agree, the timeline for the empire's demise is very short. Legends wrote a steady and slow demise. Like they have dismissed all of the original Thrawn stories. Lucas should never had sold SW to Disney.
I honestly thought Disney starting with a clean slate was the best decision they made. Working within the Legends confines would have been *hell* for producing a sequel trilogy.
@@SamnissArandeen not as hell as it turned out.
*"...meaning that, essentially, including the **_Executor,_** they lost eleven dreadnoughts in a single year; now, some of that was due to accidents or the ships being commanded poorly...."*
That's how you know it's Disney/Lucasfilm.
"Ramming speed!"
"Sir, that is a star."
"Ah, yes of course how could I forget myself. Ready the clown noses, THEN ramming speed!"
@@winterangelos5625 This ship is called a Star destroyer.
How could I know it can't survive a ramming contest with a star.
Pretty sure you couldn't crash a star destroyer into a planet or asteroid without intentionally trying to do so. Ship failsafes will pull you out of hyperspace to prevent that even if commander is too dumb to do so. And imps that dumb wouldn't know how to override failsafe to make it possible. And if not done in hyperspace, then you could avoid or blast through any asteroid posing an obstacle. So yeah, just sloppy lazy writing.
*has been thinking this for literally forever*
Hey, I have 25,000 Star Destroyers, but I'm gonna lose em all in one year. Makes sense, right?
@Sniper Precision Disney has hijacked the minds of the imperial tacticians in order to make their movies more conceivable. All hail our overlord Disney.
Sniper Precision I don’t think the Canon Empire fleet is that large. I read in a book, can’t remember which one, but it stated that the losses at Endor was a big blow to the fleet. As in the lost a significant portion of the fleet at Endor.
well, the first order lost starkiller base, a worldkiller dreadnought and their capital ship in a few weeks. They literally charged in with their second biggest ship without fighter support against a faction that has been consistently destroying huge shit with fighters. I'd say they are a worthy successor in this case
@@martinjrgensen8234 we know of a fact that in the Original trilogy there werde almost no ships at the Battle at endor eck already complained why there werent any Escort ships and so on so no they had a large fleet and no the only big blow was the destruction of the second death star and the executor.
@@martinjrgensen8234 I read something similar, but it stated at it's max, the Empire actually had a stupid large fleet all the way up to Endor
No the second I heard how the war ended one year after I was mad. As I enjoy military history and all it made no logical sense that they could’ve won that quickly no amount of plot armor is that strong. Even in legend they spend what like another 15 years and still were on a struggle bus for a while even with the Empire being separated into factions. And then nearly being demolished by Thrawn. I think the only way for them to win so fast would be to have an utter failure in the ability for the empire to fail in governing with out the emperor and an immediate wide spread support for the empire and even if all that happens it would still take them many more years. It just doesn’t make sense at how poorly the empire does after Endor. It doesn’t love up to its character of this all powerful empire that has brought order to a large portion of the galaxy. No they way they handled it is incredibly dumb. If they wanted to change the time line and make it shorter or something that’s fine. But my goodness I know it’s fiction but at least be slightly realistic. Look at our own history and see how rebellions were won. I love Star Wars but the way they treated this time period is done with no care and effort it is very disappointing.
Major Thomas00 Mmh... Looking for historical evidence to compare with a setting that is fantasy and doesn’t make sense to begin with (scale and time in Star Wars were always a problem) is of course du dubious but there are examples in history of countries losing after years of fighting a smaller country with one big battle accelerating it. The Islamic conquest of the Sassanid Empire comes to mind for example.
I don’t think it makes sense but looking for sense in Star Wars is also a bit misplaced. Still, I agree that it’s unnecessary to restrict everything to one year and making it even more hard to believe by it
Changing it to a rapid one year disintegration also doesn't make sense for building up the New Republic's backstory, because by the time of the new trilogy they're super weak. What have they been doing for 30 years after the Empire just vanished
Love the fact was the only reason the New Republic could grow was cause the Imperial Warlords were more interested in fighting each other for prestige of being the Next Emperor.
And the Imperial Remnant didn't try to retake the galaxy captpiol cause they didn't want to spend resources in rebuilding it.
@@krispalermo8133 exactly, it makes sense, much like the Roman Empire fighting amongst itself (and suffering plagues) while external forces grew stronger
@@NYG5 they should have built a wall
You kind of already mentioned this in your video, but it seems to me like they could have easily solved this problem by having the empire implode in a massive internal civil war after Palpatine's death. It really would have fit thematically with the original trilogy, since the main weakness of the empire was always its centralization (e.g. relying on the Death Star as the ultimate guarantee of political order and the emperor as the ultimate political authority). The first order could then have been the final, well organized element of the empire, part of an elite cadre stationed out in the Unknown Regions and working on even more massive experimental weapons.
Meanwhile the Vong show up.
Yuuzhan Vong: It’s free real-estate.
*And suddenly Space Marines noise appear*
Yeah, and they are implied to still exist in canon in the Thrawn backstory books, which are canon. So we can safely assume that every single character from the sequels(thankfully) died a horrible death.
@@jonahclements9549 I just read the new thrawn prequel and the vong aren’t mentioned, just the Grysks. I wonder if they decided the vong’s whole caste society and self mutilaion isn’t very “Star wars” and just kept the Grysks... where Anakin (&vader) knowing about the Grysks and their client races along with thrawns warnings being accepted Disney Canon.
You right. But also the new canon seems to paint the Empire as EVEN MORE incompetent after Palpatine's "death" because even pirates have been able to take ships as large as SSDs from the empire at this point (which I'm so dissapointed didn't show up in the new book)
Everyone seemingly became braindead levels of incompetent after Endor, New Republic in Disney cannon are so stupid.
Even before Palpatine's Death, the Empire was incompetent if you read canon Marvel comics
Helmred Yeah, it didn't make sense for the Empire to be incompetent while it's still led by the mastermind who orchestrated the Clone Wars and all that.
If you can think of it as like taking over a city, then technically its possible to take one over... If that city's only held by a skeleton crew. But that dreadnought is 19km long.
In the old EU Timothy Zahn, the guy that started it all, and one of the vey few authors whose work was universally praised, justified the Empire's incompetence post-Endor by stating that the Emperor was using the Force to influence the entire Imperial Army, and once he died, they were like robots disconnected from the main server that gave them instructions, which was used to justify having the Empire being down to controlling only a forth of the galaxy a mere 5 years after Endor.
I know the EU had its flaws with numbers, dates, and that sort of thing but the new canon simply doesn't feel thought out.
Republic because it isn’t
That's because it wasn't.
They have nothing (except a legally stolen universe)
By the time of Disney wrecking the Canon with dumb arsed desicions most fleet battles dates and losses had been worked out by Wookieepedia now we gonna have to wait another decade I guess
Republic Disney and Lucasfilm rushed The Force Awakens and its surrounding lore. If TFA took place 100+ years after ROTJ, like the Legacy comics, they wouldn't have had to rush the Empire's defeat and the First Order's growth, but they had it take place only 30 years later, just so they could include the OT characters for nostalgia.
That‘s exactly what I‘ve been thinking - how come a massive galaxy-spanning Empire falls in just one year? Even if Palpatine set up a contingency plan to self-destruct the Empire, it just doesn’t make sense. All of the imperial admirals, generals and moffs weren’t exactly loyal to the Emperor and now that he and Vader - his greatest enforcer - were both dead, they had nothing to fear and could essentially do whatever they wanted. That’s why the Legends version makes much more sense to me. Without Palpatine and Vader there would be no unity to be had. Sheev held the Empire together and when he died, it inevitably fragmented. Now the Rebellion (later the New Republic) had to deal with hundreds of Warlords, instead of one centralized Empire.
Legends did a way better job than Disney. Disney said, "it ended, yaaaaay."
disney is to legends like the weeraboos talking on how germany could have won world war 2
In Legends, the Empire never really ended. After Thrawn's death, it fragmented into warlord territories that were briefly reunited by Hethrir and Galak Fyyar but only lasted for like 5 years. Then when the Yuuzhan Vong invaded, the New Republic and the Imperial remnant united and became the Galactic Federation of Free Alliances (basically space European Union). But even then, the Empire still existed, but as s constitutional monarchy under Roan Fel.
No they didn't you just hate.
@@mastshke Well, speaking for myself, I do tend to hate it when someone throws out an intricate story decades in the making for some subpar, at best, fanfaction.
@@AzureKnight2 I love it when the lore places a character at three different places at the same time. But let's face it 90% of legends was sponsored fanfics with self insert OCs.
I don't want to smear anyone, but I feel like a lot of this can be put at the feet of Chuck Wendigg, author of the trilogy. He was clearly way out of his depth with this stuff. His comments on Social Media have made it clear more than once that he's more interested in broad stroke story stuff than actual details, his angry rants about how "canon" doesn't really matter anyway and general focus on.. well, for lack of a better term, "pandering" characters, it's obvious he was just not the guy to use for the foundation of the Sequel Era.
And it's genuinely frustrating! Because Battlefront 2 and lots of media that followed, like the Comics, Resistance Reborn, etc, are bending over backwards to reference the Aftermath Trilogy and draw connections, but a chain is only as strong as its weakest link, and even by the standards of Legends canon (which had a lot of really not-very-good stories...) Aftermath is a resounding 'meh'.
Is there good stuff in the Sequel era of EU canon? Absolutely. Bloodlines was fantastic and did a much better job making the transitional time period feel real and lived in. But the Aftermath Trilogy was a rushed mess that stinks of the "too much, too fast" approach that Disney took in those early days of handling the franchise.
I feel as though the Mandalorian is going to help set things straight, offering a more on-the-ground look at the years after Endor, where we can get a better sense of the factors that led to the Rise of the First Order. But the numbers issue and the briefness of the time period between Endor and Jakku, that's a huge problem, one that I suspect Disney will just ignore and hope we don't read too far into.
Can't argue that 👍
This is clearly why Disney woulda actually gotten more profit and fan confidence if they’d just paid royalties and converted the EU novels into films
Yep. I was so mad after reading Aftermath. What a piece of garbage.
@@trayolphia5756 100%
@@trayolphia5756 I'm so glad that didn't happen. Adaptations hardly ever turn out well.
The empire sent back a T800 to kill Luke when he was just a farm boy.
God I would watch this movie
Naturally the first person they'll run into is a displeased Obi-Wan.
@@midgetydeath and he will chop t800 into 800 pieces
Disney Canon on the "Fall of the Empire" reads like someone who has no idea how Geo-Politics Works, or actually reading History.
Instead they take the concept that The Galactic War was like The Clone Wars., and / or World War 2... the idea that with the Defeat of the Leadership, well that's it the War was done and the Allies were Victorious.
Like a key element to remember is that the Imperial Chain-of-Command was actually quite Robust.
Sure, Emperor Palpatine ruled it as a Dictatorship … but the Senate over a 19 Year Period was slowly Diluted in terms of it's Power (until it was completely abolished in 0 ABY) in favour of the Moffs. These were essentially Regional Governors., who in turn had Planetary Governors under them (all of which were part of the Military).
I'd argue that what would've most likely occurred would've been similar to what happened in the USSR after the Death of Stalin., or PRC after the Death of Mao. You'd have the Regional Governors (Moffs) essentially keeping cohesion Publicly; while Privately making various Deals and Alliances to form a Faction strong enough to take control.
The Imperial Remnant during their time would be weakened... far less effective... easier for the Rebel Alliance (New Republic) to take advantage of, in terms of Tactical Strikes, Establishing a New Republic that was independent of the Empire, Building a Cohesive Naval Force, etc.
But we wouldn't have seen a "Hot War"., rather a period of "Cold War" with a lot of Proxy Wars being fought over Disputed Territories.
The Imperial Remnant wouldn't be in a position to stop more Rebellions and Systems converting to being Independent / Joining the Republic... as such we'd see over time a slow bleeding of Territory, Wealth, Resources, etc.
This wouldn't occur over 12 months., but more like a Generation (20 Years) … and it wouldn't result in the Collapse of the Empire, but instead them accepting their place as merely one of the two Major Galactic Factions.
Now of course, this doesn't stop a Splinter Group of the Empire disappearing into the Unknown Regions., to Form the "First Order of the Empire" and spend said time building up their Forces, Power Base, Resources, etc.
After all... the Unknown Regions are typically left alone due to how Dangerous Transit is there., plus the Species that live there being considerably more Insular and Violent; but also beyond that, the Remnant and Republic would easily be far too preoccupied with Geo-Political Events within Known Space.
•
For me, this actually resolves *ALOT* of issues with the Disney Trilogy... as in said regards., the First Order coming back to take over the Imperial Remnant, so that it could then have the Territory, Resources and Power to then take over the Galaxy again with a New Imperial Order.
Those who lived through the Galactic Empire and Civil War Eras., will recognise the threat that such could pose on both the Galaxy but also the New Republic; who at which point was beginning to scale back their Military believing that the Galaxy was now at some form of Peaceful Coexistence.
Heck we could even see how while the Remnant and Republic might not see eye-to-eye, they're at least on relatively Friendly / Peaceful Terms.
This would then make sense why a Rebellious / Resistance group is formed … sure to Fight the First Order, but more specifically help the Remnant that is in a loosing battle; as the New Republic would simply not wish to get involved in what they'd see as "External Politics" … even if they might agree that something needs to be done.
The Resistance could in said regards ACTUALLY be Sanctions., but with Plausible Deniability by the New Republic Executive Office.
How could the Battle of Jakku play into the Films? Well it could simply be seen by the New Republic as the "Final Battle" as the Rebel Alliance... it being the last of the Galactic Empire before it became the Imperial Remnant, and marking the end of the Galactic Civil War and beginning of the Galactic Cold War.
Beyond that I have some ideas of how I'd have handled the story to have some similar story elements but would take a very different approach to events and how things played out between the characters. Certain Characters I'd simply cut., while introducing different / old (legends) characters.
yeesh, you were just able to fix basically every plot hole in the sequel trilogy just with this one comment, too bad they didn't have people like you on the team for that trilogy
Underrated.
Disney handles Star Wars poorly. What else is new?
Legends handled the decline of the empire well.
New canon doesn’t
Josh Brunke to be fair there was a 30 year gap between the original and sequel trilogy
@@tatemenegon to be fair there was already a "canon" of how the empire Fell after the Battle of Endor that handled it way, way better that the Writers could've easily gotten access too in order to make what was simply superior Material into the Sequels instead of the corporatized crapshoot they produced instead.
TATE MENEGON To be fair Fuck that. The time span between movie trilogies has nothing to do with how well the comics and novels handled the fall of the empire.
Here's my proposed fix for the canon. The Empire fractures and starts infighting as everyone tries to make a claim to the throne. With this the Empire is weakened further and many defect to the New Republic. After 8 years or so a new Imperial Council representing an attempt to unify the warlords is manipulated by Sloan and others to incite the Battle of Jaku where they hope to kill off Imperial commanders who aren't fit for the First Order. The backbone of the Imperial fleet is broken and in the chaos Sloan and others lead a sizeable chunk of whats left into the unknown regions.
From here you could have the Empire left behind surrender to the New Republic or have a situation where the Republic and what's left of the Empire make peace. I prefer the second option where the Imperial Remnant exists and don't take part in war with the First Order but do decide to join the Republic at Exegol to take down Palpatine. Then they consolidate what's left of the First Order and become the new version of the Fel Empire.
What I like about how they did the legends of fall of the empire is that even in the Thrawn trilogy books, the imperial officers still names the New Republic the Rebellion, as to show that they genuinely still believe in what the empire stood for, contradicting alot to the canon fall of the Empire, where Iden Versio joins the New Republic after operation cinder where the empire destroys one of its own planets just because their dead emporor says they should.
Yeah seriously I honestly thought they would have learned their lesson with the Death Stars. Control through Absolute fear is impossible. With the destruction of Vardos they literally just told people to join the rebellion, where they'll at least have a chance at survival, unlike the empire where death is certain just because dead Sheev wills it
I think like 90 percent of the ISD's went to the unknown regions, Palpatine has like thousands, and the eclipse.
Legends is just so much better than everything I've read about the disney alternate timeline stories.
@RATCHOON plenty of videos helping with that ;) i started with Zahn's trilogy and never looked back
@RATCHOON Zahn's Trilogy. Darth Bane Trilogy, Tales of the Jedi comics saga... X-Wings saga... Truce at Bakura... Han Solo's Trilogy, A cloack of Deception, Republic Commando, Shatterpoint.
It's not a mess. It is just very rich.
@RATCHOON If you just focus on the legends novels too they have a timeline you can follow that for the most part is correct. Mostly the clone wars is where it seems to get iffy
A toliet sounds better
Some of the individual stories in mew canon are pretty good, Claudia Gray is great for example.
Disney canon is lazy and doesn’t make sense. In other news, water is wet.
Ya that's why I stick with the expanded universe
I hate to be this guy, but water is not wet.
You could say water is drenched
It appears then that you a member of the toxic brood.
This just in... sequel trilogy revealed to be Luke's soy-milk induced bad dream xD
The Legends continuity's way of saying how the Empire fell makes a lot more sense, even ignoring all the weirder stuff from that period of time. From what it presents, a power vacuum is created after the Emperor is defeated, leading to numerous figures in the Imperial ranks to take power for some amount of time, Thrawn being the most famous example. Yes, Battlefield II does justify some of the reasons why the Empire fell so quickly with Operation Cinder, but that was after the Aftermath books were released, so it shows you that this new canon isn't exactly consistent (then again, Legends was WILDLY inconsistent, but that's another story).
Compare to Disney canon at least they try something interesting rather than playing it safe.
Battlefield?
You mean Battlefront II?
Its like the writers of Star Wars never read a Sci-Fi book in their lives.
or read of real life Empires collapsing
@@essexclass8168 BTW If someone wants to read a series of books very similar to SW but much better developed I suggest "Galaxy's Edge by Jason Anspach and Nick Cole". The first one is very local but the following books are more "galactic".
@@segadorn or Dune too, great series to this day
Segador DeAlmas another alternative to star wars is “warhammer 40k”, I love it because it has no plot armour or bullshit, some character may seem OP, but when you see their opponent then you realise that nobody is OP if everybody is.
Universal Century Gundam.
Watch an episode of "the Origin."
Is quality politicking and space warfare.
LOGH is also great
Here's one thought: the destruction of the second death star was probably a financially catastrophic event for the Empire financially. That coupled with the loss of critical planets shortly after would have bankrupted the Empire. A large ship like a Star Destroyer require a lot of maintenance. If they can't maintain the ships or don't have enough soldiers to man the ships (because they're not being paid), the commanders might be forced to scuttle them.
Actually, no, losing the Death Stars would not have been as bad a catastrophe as people think. It would be the equivalent of the US losing an aircraft carrier. Bad, yes, but the economy could handle it
@@DavidbarZeus1
If you can afford to build it, you can survive losing it. Lose it doesn't cost money. It just means you don't have it. His theory had the empire already defeated by its own creation.
@@icecold9511 his theory is more likely based on the fact that probably the largest project in the history of the empire was blown up hurting confidence in the empire. Think about it, the emperor died as well as one of his most trusted aids. The economic costs of the destruction of something like the Death Star are not limited to the cost of building it
The empire was living the life. Well Above what they ought too. And when the empire’s borrowing costs became unbearable, guess who stepped in. The god damn IMF!
So they had to lay off public servants, cut spending, scuttle SDs, close down imperial palaces and so on.
That’s how it happened.
@@nwblader6231 Legends still handled it better with a shit Ton of Warlords popping up, trying to claim the throne, remember that the Empire didn’t seem to have any financial troubles in the 2nd or 3rd Movie where they easily gotten a second Death Star to be built with a laser activated and strong enough to blow up ships.
Like this is a Galactic spanding empire with hundreds or thousands of planets with perhaps more than quadrillions of non hyper inflated cash in circulation. It might bankrupt like 2-10 planets if destroyed but 100-10 is 90% and that’s if we go with the lowest number. If we go with 1,000 then it’s basically 990, 99% of the other planets are still fine.
Sure it’s still tank to resources but a Death Star isn’t something that’ll cripple the Empire for good.
I figured Episode IV explained it sufficiently: "The regional governors now have direct control over their territories."
If each territory was controlled directly by the regional governors, there could have been some overregional governors who controlled the regional ones, maybe two dozen, who report directly to the emperor. Now that he is dead without a successor, every single one has a chance of becoming the new emperor and infighting would start almost immediately.
The sectors are ruled by the Moffs. With a hand full of Grand Moffs controlling the oversectors.
@@ALEXANDER1318 So I guessed right.
Which was pretty much how it happened in Legends. A bunch of high ranking imperials made their own mini-empires, and started to fight each other.
It seems plausible to me that the rebellion could continue their hit and run tactics on the remaining smaller imperial factions, slowly clearing them out, and stealing star destroyers and other equipment along the way.
That's legends in a nutshell. Well over a decade of that and the Empire still had some forces that were a threat. The rebels got really good at hit and run against capital ships and being able to take out Star Destroyers with a single squadron.
But in 1 year? Remember that this is a galaxy sized war, this isn’t WW2 where the Germans were surrounded by a massive force, it’s going to be a hard fight to truly take out the empire even if the structure is gone
#AskEck
What are your thoughts on the Republic Commando Books?
Literally my all time favorite Star Wars novel series. Fantastic insight into the clone's perspective of the Clone War. Just annoyed that the last book was never finished coz Disney.
Jatnese be te jatnese
@@facialfuzz I loved the first 3 and a half books the first time through, wasn't a fan of a lot of order 66 or almost any of impcom. Rereading it though, there's a bit of a dip even in True Colors.
They're my favorite
@@facialfuzz It wasn't disney that messed up the last book. It was Karen Traviss during her colaboration with Aaron Alliston and Troy Denning on the Legacy of the Force series. She was basically being an insufferable cunt and got fired.
Palpatine's " Contingency" is goofiest part of the post-RotJ new canon. Everything associated with it is ham-fisted and cartoonish.
@Lord Kuuga lol dont forget Skeletor
That whole thing pissed me off so much. They messed up the character of Palpatine sooooo bad in that reveal in battlefront 2 and makes the main character (can’t remember her name) seem like a huge hypocrite with her turn to the rebellion
The only *good* thing that might come of this is showing how sinister and evil Palp can be. If he were willing to set up Endor having foresaw his "death" and sacrifice that whole fleet and more just to finally eradicate the jedi for good via ep 9 plot, then props to him. He fooled everyone and really doesn't care about the lives of any of his troops. Which helps really capture how twisted, evil, and far-seeing he is.
That said, such a plot makes no sense based on how ep 6 played out. He could have had any thousand or so odd plans which work more efficiently and achieve the same goal. Thus, it still sucks.
@@josephbirrenkott7993 yeh i think a lot of people forget he's a psychopath. Like literally. He does not give a single f about anything just him, hell he doesn't even really care about the sith order, he wants to be the only one.
Ever heard of the Nero Decree?
* = Asterisk.
Asterix = a cartoon character, who likes Obelix.
and gets his potions from Getafix!
Thank you for your attention to this important matter.
Thank you! I wonder why that word is so often mispronounced. Another one is "peripheral".
I was actually thinking of the Bleach anime .
At this point I might as well assume the Imperial fleet was destroyed by a giant Asterix. If he can beat the Roman Empire, why not the Galactic Empire?
Disney canon once again proving it's vast inferiority to even the prequel trilogy.
*its
The new Canon makes the Empire look VERY incompetent. At least for the old Legends. the Empire didn't go down without a fight and still manage to survive in the northern regions of the Galaxy.
Disney: Hmmm... Gotta do some creative ...
*Rebels destroy the most powerful armada in the history of movies in one year*
Disney: How convenient! *Counts money*
Accurate
Hey, someone has to put space marines in 2nd place. Disney just stepping it up a notch lol.
@@josephbirrenkott7993 Well they're getting close, but they ain't hit 40k levels JUST yet
Killer Orca he said movies not 40k standards, god nothing can actually come close to 40k standards for troop numbers
Miguel Montenegro literally the whole point was to cull the weak admirals and generals so the First Order would have the best chance of taking out the New Republic
"It's a baffling bit of world building." You're first mistake is believing there was any actual attempt made at legitimate world building.
Ending the Galactic Civil War so quickly really put the storytelling possibilities of this new canon in a difficult position. Same with the fact that they got rid of the Jedi pre-TFA, given how much of the old EU concentrates on Luke's new Jedi Order.
Honestly I don’t know why Disney just didn’t have the Rebels defeat the Empire during the time of Reven and the Old Reoublic 🤷🏼♂️
It would make as much sense.
Finally someone makes this video I've literally been complaining about this for years about how this makes no sense. It pissed me off. Eckhart thank you. As always you're the chosen one when it comes to Star Wars videos.
Now that I think about it, I assumed I guess that Operation Cinder caused a lot of in-fighting, and that Inferno Squads reaction was a lot more widespread. So, many of those destroyed ships were actually Imperial on Imperial crime. NOT saying that is correct btw, this video makes me think about it a bit more actually than I had originally.
Just gonna say I'd have to believe that building both death stars so quickly may have taken valuable resources, time, and personnel away from maintaining their massive fleet. This could have greatly impacted remaining forces as they fought for these resources amid a power vacuum.
Maybe if they had played up more how much Palpatine's "Will" held the Empire together and without him they just crumbled like a crumb cake
That would Tim Zhan too much credit. You know that can't accept that someone wrote this better 20 + years ago.
Well, that's why the Legends explanation makes actual sense. The death of their supreme leader threw the Empire into chaos because there was no clear successor. So the Empire fell apart and descended into warlord-based infighting. If the First Order formed from the unified Imperial Remnants after a decade or so of infighting, or if most of the Imperial Remnants quickly retreated to the Unknown Regions and regrouped under the banner of the First Order, then that would make sense.
But having the entire Empire fall apart in the span of a single year simply doesn't make sense.
That doggo at the end never ceases to be funny.
I think it should have taken several years like the Covenant in Halo.
I'm not a fan of how Halo did it in canon. The Elites should have been far more unified and, due to being the vast majority of the naval commanders and leaders in the Covenant, would have been able to swiftly defeat the rest of the Covenant.
“Execute Order Maclunkey”
The new "canon" is not canon. It is high budget fanfiction.
*anti-fan fiction
No, it's canon. You just don't like it. And I don't say that with any bias. I'm not saying that I like it anymore than you do. But I'm sick of the absolutist "This isn't canon!" attitude. No. It is. People just need to suck it up.
@@user-kt4cg2fn7l 😂 sure
I mean, some of the EU had fanfic like qualities
@@user-kt4cg2fn7l It's all fiction, so I can ascribe whatever of it I want to be the "real" story and so can you. No different from playing KOTOR games and one player going dark side ending while another goes light side. Both exist, you get to choose which one you treat as "real" because it's all fictional.
Only for actual reality does this not apply.
Disney Star Wars is like the deal Lando Calrissian made with Darth Vader. It just keeps getting worse.
Speaking of Lando, Disney will probably kill him off like the rest of the OT characters
Nah, they can't kill him because he is black so that would be RAciST. We may even discover he was secretly gay all alon... Oh wait, they actually did that in Solo. *sigh*
"Chuck Wendig"
There's your problem right there...
Nope, its Disney
I always had a feeling from films, legend comics and books, that even normal Star Destroyers are really powerful and hard to destroy in classic fight. Now it turns out that not only Rebel fleet is gigantic and powerful, but also Star Destroyers and Super Star Destroyers are as easy to destroy as a common Tie Fighter (adding to that, the opening battle from The Last Jedi... ehhh)... It is shit job from Disney and Lucasfilms, complete shit job.
I always thought of it as a sort if wwii thing. D-day is endor, and after that it is just slippery slope as command becomes pretty bad and is over quite quick.
We're talking an entire galaxy here and Germany was impoverished due to attrition from the conflict. They never recovered from stalingrad and even then it took 2 nuclear bombs to end the war entirely. This type of scaling really doesn't make sense on a galactic scale with an entire galaxy's worth of resources both hardware and manpower.
Gareth Holman there was no line of succession and of course there was operation cinder which could have destroyed wealthy loyal worlds. It wasn’t really a galactic empire it was palpatine’s empire who was the sole leader if he couldn’t have the galaxy no one could. Because of this arrogance on his part the empire was rather doomed to fail and with operation cinder there was likely defection and some infighting that likely destroyed any potential factions before the new republic even noticed them. It was an empire that was meant to fall without their central figure.
@@hoopsonwheels Really? No Grand Admirals or Grand Moffs to seize power?
I mean, maybe it's a case that nobody in the entire galaxy or the empire's vicious politically ambitious empire wanted to be the next emperor. I find it a bit of a stretch though. But... maybe?... surely?... :/
I feel like that would've made more sense if the Empire had already been severely weakened and depleted by the years of fighting beforehand (rather as Nazi Germany was by fighting in Africa, Italy and the Eastern Front against the USSR) but I don't think there's any real sign of that in the OT era.
Sadly, if that honestly is the direction Disney thinks makes the most sense than it's little wonder as to why it's slowly imploding. Very lazy writing and far too contrived to be even remotely realistic or plausible.
This is my single biggest problem with the new canon - post-ROTJ being utterly unbelievable.
Keep in mind, that as far as Lucas was concerned, the Empire ended with Episode 6. There were no massive fleets. Every ship went down at Endor. Except what the local governors needed to keep their sectors in line.
Yeah people act as if Lucas had any sense of scale himself. Nope, he never said anything happened after Endor. That was basically the end right there.
@@professionalmemeenthusiast2117 Lucas should be ignored, he has no sense of scale. He is worse in that than even Disney.
@@clashman7564
I would have still preferred his sequel trilogy, but with people actually advising and criticising him like with the OT.
Was it ever implied in the movies that the empire was effectively gone? I clearly remember people celebrating the victory of the battle of Endor and the death of the emperor but as far as the OT implies it was just the end of their character arcs. Leia avenged her home planet being destroyed, Han protected his new friends and choose to live for others and Luke finally defeated the emperor and witness the redemption of his father. The interplanetary political implications after the events of RotJ was never clarified, only in the EU.
The Mandalorian made it sound like it took several years. Although that also sounded like mostly mopping-up operations. Still seems like a rather short amount of time.
The more and more we get of Disney's Star Wars, the less and less interesting it gets.
I bet you like The Mandalorian and TCW Season 7 lol
@@nairb2173 tbh I dropped Mandalorian in disgust after episode 2.
All I really wanted was a show about Mandalorians and/or bounty hunters with no force users involved...
Because Disney canon post-Endor is pretty dumb. Legends lore made more sense about how the Empire fractured into warlords that still held huge amounts of territory. It took years for the New Republic to clean that up.
Canon Logic: Lets make this gigantic. galactic faction fall in 1 year and then nothing important happens for the next 30 years.
Also Canon Logic: Doesnt use anything of the existing story of the empires fall to not just copy legends. Then makes Star Wars 7.
I think that legends shows a more accurate picture of what happens when basically all central leadership of a country or organization is destroyed. That the said group collapses into heavy infighting. What the current canon states is that the empire just stayed together.
Here's the thing. The Aftermath trilogy is poorly written by a man who thinks he is smarter than he really is. Of course it screwed things up further.
Not just him. I think most people who worked on Disney Star Wars got their job for being "woke", not for being talented..
Disney also didn’t give him much data about what they were planning on doing, they just said “here write this kinda stuff” and let him run.
Hence why the books have a gay couple in them but no real tactics
@@KillerOrca I don't care about the sexual orientation of the ex Imperial. I do have a problem with sloppy writing. Especially when it's laying the groundwork for building a galaxy of storytelling. That and a pretentious attitude from the author are my only problems.
@@Grubnar Can't upvote that one. There has been plenty of good authors in the new Cannon that don't fit that description.
@@CMCustom112 No kidding
"Aftermath" is such a slog to get through. The prose style doesnt work for me, but I wonder how much was the authors doing, and how much was instructions from higher up?
Legends is the real canon prove me wrong.
The IP owners have stated that legends is not canon. Consider yourself proven wrong.
@@kalebk9595
I mean, this shit is all just fiction in the end. We don't need some lousy ass "IP owners" to tell us what's canon or not. If you like the horrible shit that Disney's doing with Star Wars, that's fine I'll take a sniff out of the good shit that is Star Wars EU anytime of the day and consider that good crack shit canon.
@@TheEthanGamer I say it's up to the fans to decide. Not them
There is no real canon. That statement is just nonsense. If you enjoy the new content under Disney then great. If you enjoy the content from the EU then good for you. Neither of them is more real than the other. There is no way to prove to you that legends isn't the "real" canon.
Gavin Morse No, canon is what the IP holder says it is. You can love anything you want but you’re objectively wrong saying that. There’s no other take on it
Hey @eckhartsladder, love your topics, love the theorys and lore breakdowns and cross analyzing. Thoroughly enjoy the content. Keep up the good work.