The Bi vs Pan Debate
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- Опубликовано: 3 окт 2024
- The Bi/Pan Debate was a heated war in the early 2010s online queer community. It defined bisexuality as inherently transphobic, enbyphoic, and bad. Bisexuals often say pansexuality as an identity is inherently biphobic and was only invented for self-hating bisexuals to escape biphobia. Are these two entirely distinct identities or are they just two words that mean the exact same thing? It depends on who you ask.
Sources:
@verilybitchie 's Why We Hate Bi Men - • Why We Hate Bi Men
TikTok from @jessiepaegeshows the difference dating men vs women, and there are other considerations for people of other varying genders.
Flanders, Corey E. (January-March 2017). "Defining Bisexuality: Young Bisexual and Pansexual People's Voices". Journal of Bisexuality. 17 (1): 39-57.
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When I was in my middle school “omg I like women too realization” phase, I felt so confused. Totally felt like if I identified as bi, then I was going to be viewed as super sexual and gross (nothing wrong with being sexual but I wasn’t). And I was afraid that if I identified as pan, I would be looked at as “microlabeling” and chronically online. Whatever you identify as has a set of stereotypes. It sucks.
Anyways, loved the video!
Oh yeah, absolutely agree! Any label is fraught with stereotypes and problems and people just pick whatever they like.
I remember all the Tumblr bi vs pan debate, and as someone who came out later in life I despised being told who I could be attracted to.
I'm nonbinary, and I'm neither bi nor pan, because I'm ace.
Eyy, a fellow nonbinary ace person. Very nice to run into on the wilds of the interwebs. Fair well stranger.
Mothman, garlic bread, foxes
I deeply identify with being a mess around anyone I’m attracted to no matter whom. 😂😂😂
A near-universal queer experience!
I’m only about a minute into the video, but I feel the need to state something.
As a trans person, (ftm) it is NOT transphobic at all to not want to date a trans person, straight or queer. People have preferences, and that is 100% okay. I feel a little gross when people call people who wouldn’t date a trans person transphobic, because it is completely human to have those preferences.
I say as long as people aren’t being mean about their preferences, then it’s completely okay to feel that way.
Oh absolutely. It's sus when they announce it constantly and unprompted all the time but to me, any kind of preferences are just a part of life. It's a bit complicated because a lot of people are very transphobic, but navigating things like relationships and attraction ARE very complicated. There are considerations and not everyone is going to be sexually compatible based on the way they like to have sex, and their own anatomy.
But the narrative when pansexuality emerged into the mainstream was "bisexuals won't have sex with trans people and we will, therefore they are categorically transphobic and we aren't" and absolutely no part of that statement is true.
THANK YOU.
Depends. If you say you don't want to date someone just because they're trans, that sounds disgusting. What about them being trans makes you not see them as the gender you're attracted to?
"They don't have the parts I like," that's valid, but that isn't a preference. Preference means you would have one thing over another, but still like both of them (omnisexual- gender preference but still likes all genders).
What if they're post-op? "They can't have kids," sure, but does that mean you don't date the 17.5% of women / 10-15% of men who also can't have kids? If the answer for that is no, and they'd still date the infertile person, then that's transphobic.
For example, if you see someone on the street, how would you know that they are trans? If they "pass" (terrible word, ik) as cis and they're post-op, how would you know if they were cis or trans without them telling you? (this is what I asked a guy years ago in school when he had "super straight" in his bio and that actually made him understand)
@@kaidenlequeer That completely goes against what this commentator is trying to say, don't get me wrong, I get you're point though
me myself as a cis bi woman would date no matter if you were cis or trans however I understand there are certain people who wouldn't wanna date you solely because of what body parts you have. Some people just rely on the more sexual element of relationships and can't find themselves being attracted to them sexually which is nothing you should call them transphobic over, it's just a preference. I'd only consider someone transphobic in this type of situation if they
1. see this person as the incorrect gender (saying if they're ftm they're female and saying that they're still dating/sleeping with a girl despite the person actually being a guy)
2. saying that although they do see this person as the gender identity they identify most comfortably with, they also see them as too much as their biological gender to date them (could very well be classified as transphobic)
I know not everyone will agree with me so if anyone has anything to say I'm open to hearing your thoughts, but it's always better to talk to actual trans people rather than me
To me if someone does have a clear genital preference the easy solution to that is to simply communicate that as it comes up. Shouting it into the void is really weird but communicating as it comes up is fine and normal. For example: You're at the club. You're trying to hook up. You think the person you're grinding on and who seems super dtf might have a type of genitals you don't like. You just say that. You say "Hey, I'm not really looking for any dick tonight, is that an issue?" Or you say, "Hey, I'm looking to get dicked down tonight." Will they be offended? Possibly. Maybe. People get offended when you communicate your boundaries and interests sometimes but that doesn't mean you've done something wrong.
I was definitely a part of the group as a kid that went "Well I'm pan cause pan is all so bi sounds like your excluding people but I dont care about the gender of who I'm dating." And I've still stuck to pan as my lable but now have enough intelligence to understand its really no different in the long run, just how I've chosen to identify.
Then again, I also identify as genderfluid and demi, so I think I'm clearly just a mess who doesn't like making decisions.
"I think I'm clearly just a mess who doesn't like making decisions." So relatable! So, so relatable lol.
I used to ID as pan! I used it as "Not having a preference based on gender itself" which i realized later on that I was wrong, I do have preferences that are more specific then I though. So i switched to bi which i felt was more fitting and I am proud to be bi and it feels right to me.
I have friend's who are pan, and other friend's of different m-spec identities, we are all valid. It depends per person, they aren't inherently "wrong", we need to stop attacking eachother and just respect someone's identity whether or not we understand it.
Yeah any of the labels are fine. The discourse and defining them strictly is a problem. Trying to strictly pin down an identity like Bi/Pan is honestly kind of silly. Because all of the identities within this umbrella of "Not Gay or Straight" are so similar as to be - in my opinion - basically the same thing, people just pick one based on the vibe, the word they like, the flag they like. To me, if they were really entirely distinct separate identities, people wouldn't be choosing which one they prefer based on the flag they like. But, as with all identities, people can identify however they want and it doesn't really affect me. The only part that affect me is the misdefining of bisexuality as problematic and exclusive when the word has never been used that way, it was just invented at a time when people had very different understandings of sexuality and gender.
I used to identify as pan to describe the "I have no idea who I'm going to date because I have varying attractions". Kind of a catch-all. Now I'm ace😞
@@vanilla-vx3pd The Pansexual to Asexual pipeline is so real!
Pan is BS. The Bi flag is prettier 😜
I was deep in the closet when this debate started so I have only really seen these arguments second hand. It seems like bisexuals and pansexuals get along these days, unless I am still out of the loop. Btw, I am a bisexual nonbinary person also.
Yeah the discourse has mostly died, though there are periodic resurgences of the discourse online. I occasionally see them pop up.
They think I'm good at carpentry because I wear Doc Martens 😂
The first time I heard of this debate was when I started seeing youtubers making videos to try and reconcile the warring parties. I accepted the standard answer, that the terms were similar, but each group had its own emphasis, so, live and let live. Which is fine, I guess, but when I tried to identify the difference in myself, I really couldn't see it. There didn't seem to be enough of a difference in my experience to justify a completely distinct identity. So I just continued thinking of myself as bi, mostly because I was already extremely anxious about coming out as bisexual, which is at least a concept most people have some notion of. But very few people had heard the word pansexual, and I could not imagine myself trying to explain it to someone who was not queer.
Your insight about most of these arguments coming from kids reminds me of my pet theory that the majority of pointless arguments on the internet probably would not be possible without the participation of children who are just old enough to have discovered the devastating power of logic, or rather, their simplistic notion of logic. These days I just assume most of the assholes are 15. It makes the nonsense a bit more tolerable.
I'm glad youtube showed me your video. I discovered I was bi right at the beginning of the AIDS crisis, then promptly spent thirty-plus years trying to pretend I was straight. (Not a good idea. I don't recommend it.) Discourse about the subject is often not great these days, but at least it exists. In 1982 the only thing I knew about being bi was that David Bowie was it -- and I'm not like Bowie at all! -- and that bisexuals are likely deceitful users of others. Also not me. (But I remember wondering: was Bowie a villain??) But hardly anyone was talking about it. So it's very gratifying when I see people like you with very smart things to say about being bi. Keep it up!
Thank you so much! Yes, giving people grace and realizing that a lot of the people I interact with online don't have the life experience I have has been very helpful.
The narrative around bisexuality and AIDs made being a bisexual kid really scary back then, and we haven't fully moved past that forty years later.
Good for you that you've managed to avoid this entire mess of a "debate" lmao
I remember when the bisexuality is exclusionary debate reached my friend group, we had one conversation about it which went something like: "huh that doesn't sound right, that makes no sense" and then moved on
and personally i saw the bi/pan divide the same way i see the genderqueer nonbinary divide - a person chooses which one they like the name and flag design more of
Still waiting on a statement from the elves of Keebler.
Trust me, DO NOT google it. Do not google "Keebler Elves Bisexual." Do not turn off your safe search, then type "Bisexual Keebler Elves" into the search bar on your search engine of choice. Do Not.
Let's get one thing straight.
As a bisexual man, I have dated trans men and trans women.
If trans men are men and trans women are women--I am saying this to everyone right now. Don't you dare call us "transphobic." You may as well be contradicting yourself. Who makes the rules in who we're allowed and not allowed to date, huh?!
Just because we have a preference doesn't mean we exclude you or have anything against you.
If we respect your lifestyles and boundaries, please respect ours!
@@DJVirgoNeun1 oh, I actually spend the whole rest of the video debunking the talking points that bisexuality is transphobic
I don't identify as pan and I haven't asked pan people about the nuances of their sexuality, but I always imagined that pansexuals were moreso just attracted to people and gender didn't play much into, but bisexuals had much more complex and unique attraction. Bisexual people can have preferences and their attraction to different genders feels different. Part of why I originally started identifying as bi was actually because I didn't think I was attracted to non-binary people. What I didn't find attractive was androgynous appearances. Basically a bi person can exclude people in their attraction, but I don't think a pan person could do that. All pan people are bi, but not all bi people are pan.
I've been going with queer rather than bi or pan because I don't want people to think I'm equally likely to date people regardless of gender when in reality I'm equally likely to not date people regardless of gender. But that is right down the middle of one of your definitions of bisexual so that fits too, I guess.
its just words, umbrella terms for a trillion different things
as a bi trans girl the amount of arguing is just silly. loved the video
There is a slight difference in my mind betwixt Trash and Garbage in my mind, but if someone said "please take out the garbage" vs "please take out the trash" neither I nor anyone else would be confused. Even Charlie Kirk would understand.😊
I do think there's value in the term pansexuality (although a rename might encourage more acceptance).
I see pansexuality as a proper subset of bisexuality. There's a lot of things that may be umbrelled into bisexuality that are very much not pan.
E.g. attraction to femininity / androgeny regardless of sex but no attraction to complete masculinity.
At least the above is how my aesthetic / queer-platonic attraction works, but as an aroace.
Pan on the other hand, I often see going hand in hand with demisexuality. This is where attraction is entirely dependent on a strong emotional bond, the gender expression not part of it.
Yeah the umbrella model is a very common way people look at Bi vs Pan, with Bi being an umbrella term under which pan, omni, and polysexual are subsets which are similar, but separate and different. In studies and in talking to people I have never found this to be the case. Bisexuals, pansexuals, and other polysexuals describe their attraction to people the same way with only semantic differences, but I appreciate that people have different perspectives and there's not really any harm in people identifying one way vs another. They're just words which describe similar experiences.
Me being a transgender bisexual like...😮
Almost any gender can be hot to me 🔥
Most of the trans and nonbinary people I know are bisexual. Which makes perfect sense since there's nothing inherently transphobic or enbyphobic about bisexuality! And bisexuals are the largest population within the queer community!
@@Trash-Garbage-Trash 💖💜💙
Omnisexual is such a great word. It just sounds like someone is calling themselves the god of sex.
@@Magic_Milkshake lol I hadn't thought of that!
3:37 don't attack me like that...
Lmao I'm attacking myself too
At this stage in life, my only disagreement is that i tend to see bi as a subset of multisexual/mspec, regardless of what came first, entirely because multisexual/mspec is the umbrella encompassing all the....well, *mspec* labels anyway, including bi. Bi is historical, but not the all encompassing umbrella. Theres a larger one above it, and then bi is adjacent to the terms it is semantically related to.
Keeping in mind i am an aroace oriented mspec lesbian(what a mouthful), my skin in this game is less than others. But thats how ive formed my little visual on this. Multiple years of agonizing over shit i didnt need to bc in the end i also learned i didnt care as much as i thought i did r i p love moral and organizational ocd.
"I'm a nervous mess around everyone" is the most correct definition I've ever effing heard
Lmao it's the bisexual experience
im bi and my best friend is pan and shes said before that the reason she identified as pan rather than bi originally was just beacuse she liked the flag better. I personally see the difference as having preferences about genders (bi) or not having preferences (pan) but thats just me and i wouldnt tell someone their identity is wrong if they didn't fit into that.
I can't agree with her in matters of flag taste but I respect her right to choose and to decorate her space with a (subjectively) inferior flag!
You may like to know that, while I'm dead certain there are deserts defined by the absence of young queerdos getting together irl in the spaces of touching grass or whatever, I cannot think of a teen I know of who has had to struggle with this outside of the one who was living in Texas.
This is probably a survivorship bias I have, because I only ever met these kids by being friends with their parents, and those people have to stomach being friends with someone as weird and queer as me.
But I can see firsthand that most of these kids are doing better at developing local community in their various non-straight-passing flavors than I did while maybe-passing at their age.
(That bar is in hell, but my point still stands, walks the Earth, etc.)
For at least some of these kids, there are way more opportunities for things to not suck, than me and my 90s-kid peers had going.
My quick take on the discourse as a bisexual enby.
I consider bisexual to be a broad umbrella term which can include anyone with a fluid sexuality or who experiences attraction to more than one gender. Under the broad umbrella there are many more specific terms for different parts of the bisexual spectrum, including pansexual, polysexual, heteroflexible, homoflexible, fluid, etc. In some ways the term bisexual is similar to the term non-binary. It is both an identity in and of itself, and a useful umbrella term for anyone outside societies false dichotomy.
I consider the term pansexual to generally refer to people who have no gender preferences, people who are "gender-blind". Pansexual is part of the bisexual spectrum but not all bisexuals fit under the more specific pansexual label. Its a square-rectangles difference. All squares are rectangles but not all rectangles are squares.
I personally don't use the term pansexual anymore. This is for two reasons.
1. I have some gender preferences. My sexuality is very fluid. I am always open to all genders but which one I prefer most changes over time.
2. I have changed how I approach labels. In the past I tried to find the most specific label to perfectly describe my identity in all its intricacies. This approach no longer works for me. Now I try to find broad but accurate labels which communicate the general point. I am attracted to both men and women. I am neither fully a man nor full a women. Any specifics beyond that are not important for most people to know. I find this approach more freeing than my previous approach.
Ultimately, I think people can call themselves whatever they want. This is just how I see it.
I think a big part of this discourse comes from people not examining the motives of why people identify how they do.
When I tell people my sexuality, I'm thinking - how do I communicate who I want to see me as a potential partner? Who am I trying to tell "don't even think about it?" What word will quickly give a quick idea of my experience of attraction?
I used to identify as a lesbian but this doesn't always sit well with non-binary people who I am also frequently interested in. And yet sometimes I need a word to concisely state that I really like women and am uninterested in being with men (which is not the same as saying that I'm never attracted to them at all). So my Official Sexuality is just queer but I also frequently call myself a lesbian or gay depending on context.
I don't find the need to have a word that perfectly details what genders I'm attracted to because that's not the point, for me (and because attraction to non-binary people works differently than attraction to men or women because nonbinaryness isn't defined by mainstream society - I knew I overwhelmingly preferred women over men before I learned about non-binary people). Calling myself bisexual wouldn't make sense because people colloquially understand that to mean I am interested in dating men, which I'm not. Calling myself "polysexual" or something like that just invites further explanation and I don't wanna do that. I just wanna be into people I find hot and not worry too much about all the people I haven't met who may or may not fit into my attraction label
I have hopped between calling myself bi and pan before coming to the realization you brought up that they are basically the same
I have been and am attracted to people on all points of the gender spectrum.
I am Genders Georg
I think my ace-specness really informed my choice of identifying as pan as a young teenager cause I had very infrequent crushes that seemed to have nothing to do with the gender of the person I liked and wasn't really interested in having sex and also didn’t really pursue any of the romantic feelings I had for people which made my experiences feel very different from my bisexual friends so panromantic ace-spec and using pan for short helped me explain that difference to myself and other people without having to explain the entirety of the split attraction model to people and where I understand myself within it
going by the strict definition some ppl want to maintain, i am pan. i do identify as bi tho, primarily because i like the bi flag much more than the pan flag. the colours just go together so nicely. am i trans or nb-phobic? idk, my enby partner hasn't said anything about that to me so far...
:D
Very thorough and insightful! Amazing content.
Thank you!
I just wished people didn't fall for obvious pitfalls and believe in unknowningly biphobic / panphobic concepts to define bi / pan, like thinking bi people are the only ones who can experience gender preferences or they can't feel attraction to all genders.
I know it can sound polemic, but I came to realize that the only true difference between both terms is which color scheme you like the most, and here's the thing: that's not a bad thing! Gender as a whole is something you chose based solely on which one you vibe the most with!
I used to say I was bi originally, later I said I was pan, later I'd be like "I'm bi, pan whatever"
Now none of those words seem right to me ig.
I like anyone basically that feels better to say.
Yeah I usually say I'm Bi/Pan because to me, they're essentially the same thing describing the same phenomenon.
I filmed this under less than ideal lighting conditions (at night - usually I rely on some natural lighting) but I did my best. I haven't seen any outrageous editing mistakes yet so I'm calling this a success.
Trash is best at night under cover of darkness
That's true! Thank you!
I have been pronouncing VerilyBitchie's name wrong for the entire time I've been watching her content. I realized that as I was posting this. Lol.
x-files was also my queer awakening
I saw a meme recently that said "A woman who is a noir detective and a man who is a femme fatale" and it was a picture of Scully and Mulder. That show awakened so many bisexuals.
@@Trash-Garbage-Trash holy shit that's so true though
When i came out to my parent as transgender my mom was upset and thiught it was just a kink, but she came to almost kinda accept it.
When i came out as bi, she freaked out and started bringing up conversation therapy. Litteraly had to remind her i was in a 3 year relarionship with a women at the time.
People are very weird about bisexuals. Sorry she was so weird about it!
I'm a dirty bisexual nb ~✰
I clicked on this video because I am a masochist it seems, I really have to relive decades upon decades of biphobia, it's my favourite ~yum!
When the tumblr discourse was going on I just saw it as, what you mentioned, a bunch of kids that didn't have access to the queer community at large and didn't understand the bisexual activism that had come before. Due to the compounding factors that there wasn't really much info available online at the time regarding the LGBTQ history as well has how bisexuality was further obscured in that due to erasure. The biphobia of the 2000s and early 2010s was so intense.
You should check out the zine _Anything That Moves_ that ran from 1990-2000ish. I think it's mostly archived online. It's about sexuality and gender from a bisexual point of view. The bi community was (and still is IMO) a natural ally to the trans and non-binary communities in ways that the gays and lesbians at the time were not usually. This is why, to me, this discourse was particularly insidious.
I wasn't about to change how I identified, there just was no need, bi was perfectly serviceable. Maybe if they had just wanted to update the terminology they should have made a zine about it -- I feel like bisexuals would have eaten that shit up!
Also: during the portion of your essay where you covered how trans encompasses a variety of identities and how gender has been gendery all through time, I also suggest reading _Before We Were Trans_ by Dr. Kit Heyam, that came out only a couple years ago which is an excellent look back at trans adjacent identities through history.
Thank you! Yeah it felt really insidious at the time and it kind of still does sometimes. That one is definitely on my to read list right now!
Pan as I saw it as just another way to wave a flag that showed support to trans people. I didn't think before today how lumping different people's journeys as just one word is labeling. But we do have to remember love and support to each other . Wave your flags , all of em , these let others know there is support out there for them, among others they might not have seen as being as such. ❤
Being gay and having relationships with bi men in the eighties and nineties was too much like being Marianne Dashwood.
I identify as bisexual mainly because it's what I'm more used to / hear more often, and I prefer the bi colors to the pan ones. Also I may have been exposed to too many jokes about doing cooking utensils before I knew basically anything about LGBTQ lol. Also I'm too young to have been apart of any of the drama around bi/pan in the past.
Yeah, bisexual is a lot easier to explain.
I like using all of the labels like pansexual as microlabels for bisexuality. It's fun for my silly autism obsession with having sub-folders for everything. I enjoy saying 'I am biromantic {specifically omniromantic}' the same way I enjoy saying 'I am asexual {specifically aegosexual}', it's like hahah, yes! I have a broader word for describing the gist of what I experience AND a highly specific smaller word for when I need to exactly define the parameters of something!
Also yeah fuck the 'bisexuality excludes binary trans people because somehow the transes are separate from cis people of the gender they are!!' thing, that's. . . So, so obnoxious. I hate that. Especially to a bisexual person, if the point is that you are attracted to both ends of the spectrum, it shouldn't matter even more so than for gay/straight people because presumably that'd mean it'd be a non-issue if someone hadn't had bottom/top surgery and/or been on HRT. I understand why a nonbinary person could feel a little sad about dating someone whose label etymologically indicates an interest specifically in men and women because dysphoria is a bastard, but that's down to personal preference and I also suspect having a conversation about it with their partner could alleviate it.
Thank you, yeah I absolutely agree!
I've never seen a video so accurately describe my personal lived experience. I also was a teenager in my 20s who aggressive rejected the pansexual relabeling. And I also think the bi flag is better looking.
@@BoibiTheWeak yeah it felt like it was being forced on us and it was really insulting at the time
Bisexual DOES mean 2, both gay AND straight
1:45 the semantic details don’t hold up to actual history or common usage
Who else buys the pansexual merch when the bisexual merch runs out?
Yeah like "eh, close enough."
i call myself bi because the pan flag is hella ugly
@@paramemetics1162 it really is
Commenting for the algorithm, but also liked the video a lot. As a friendly neighborhood bisexual, I loved the trash vs garbage discussion.
Thank you!
Thank you, the bi flag is way sexier than the pan flag and that is my basis for choosing one over the other.
It really is, I just can't vibe with the pan flag. I think people who are really into yellow like it more, but I'm just not that person.
This whole argument (at least at the beginning) kinda falls apart for me because the reason I identify as bi is because pan is often used to indicate a lack of gender preference when I am attracted to men more than I'm attracted to other enbies and I'm attracted to other enbies more than I'm attracted to women. Like the video keeps saying nobody uses labels a way when I very much do use labels that way
@@tiredenby437 people who identify as pan experience the exact same attraction patterns. It's a misconception that bisexuality is different than pansexuality. Studies show they describe their attraction exactly the same ways bisexuals do. You can identify whatever way you want, but there is no functional difference.
@@Trash-Garbage-Trash You can tell me I experience whatever the fuck you like, doesn't change what I experience and the reasons I identify the way I do
I agree that pan is just a relabeling of bi. Bi people have always loved people outside the gender binary. I will say, as you said this discourse this discourse was spearheaded by kids who were trying to find their identity and make space for themselves in the queer community. I have and will continue to go by bi because of the rich history of activism and community building the term carries. But, young queer people will not want to be a part of that community if when they attempt to get involved, however misguided that involvement may be, they get shouted down and told that their input is invalid. Of course this discourse is old. It's not really the big thing popping off right now. But next time baby queers come along and start ruffling feathers it's important that we handle it with grace and guide them through our history. Because they are the next generation. And if we shut them down and shut them out that history will be lost.
I think its kind of unfair to just entirely delete the micro label nature of bisexual. Like yeah most people use it just to mean what pansexual means, but I feel like having a micro label for people attracted to people because of gender can be useful in some spaces.
I think the problem is that it's never been used that way, and the modern discourse which insists that is its only meaning is incorrect. People can use it that way, but most don't and never have. So we need to leave room for the word's meaning as-used, not a dissection of its root parts.
I guess I just grew up with it being like that; that every bisexual I knew preferred pansexual because the label fit better. I never was close into the drama side, i just lived in a community where no one uses bisexual anymore and I saw the micro label version of it as a cute way to preserve it for the spaces I inhabited. There never was any malice towards people using bisexual it just was like the transition from Transsexual to transgender.
So while sure the broader society means pan when they say bi, at least amongst the people I know we accept them as having a different meaning. Kind of my point being that, yes, in some contexts bringing back the distinction between trash and garbage can provide more power to people who need better labels. And the fact they mean the same thing does not mean we have to discard them having a different meaning.
And yeah its not perfect as well, like its just something I find a non harmful use of language and I’d call people out using it for harm
@@NattiNekoMaid yeah to me neither of the words is a problem nor is using them in different ways, the only issue was the sudden shift where everyone decided that bisexual meant you were transphobic or enbyphobic. People can use the word either way. It doesn't affect me at all how people identify nor their precise meaning of their label. I had the opposite experience, most people felt very attacked by the implications surrounding this new adoption of the term pansexual and continued identifying the way they always have. But both meanings of the word are fine, it's just that most people don't use it that way. The meanings are functionally the same for most of society even in the queer community. That may change and shift moving forward, but it's important to me that young people understand that this is not how older queer people are using those terms and that the meanings have shifted over time. Which makes them imprecise and confusing. This is often the case as language changes around queer identity.
@@Trash-Garbage-Trash Sorry for intruding on this old comment thread, but I felt I had something relevant to add to the conversation. I always knew I wasn't straight. I eventually thought I was bisexual. Later heard about pansexual and wondered if that might fit me better because bisexual just didn't feel like it quite described my experience of my orientation. When I found omnisexual, everything just clicked into place. It all made sense, and I now had a word that far better describes my orientation than I have ever been able to put into words myself.
I agree. These words we use are all just random combinations of symbols that we use to describe our internal experience in a way other people might be able to understand and relate to. Therefore, our experience of it is very different from person to person, and that is completely valid. I don't understand why it's a hard concept for people to grasp. I feel like words are just a social construct to begin with.
In my local area the main difference seems to be that my bi friends like traditional "styles"(?) like feminine women, masculine men and androgynous nbs while the pan people seem to just not care at all about "style"(?)
I don't think style is the right word but I can't think of the word right now
I don't think this is true globally tho that's just what I experienced from my local area (west Germany) and was the reason why I chose pan over bi for self-identification when I was younger
Now I usually just say I'm queer, if people ask who I do the deed with I just say everyone I find attractive, really doesn't matter to me what they identify as or whats in their pants
Its important to say here that in my area there was never any fighting between bi and pan people, or pan people trying to convince bi people to change their label. Generally I was very lucky to not be exposed to pretty much any biphobia (specific biphobia, we all got cramped on for not being straight of course), it was very weird for me to realise how incredibly common biphobia is in other areas and on the internet when i started using the English internet
(I learned English relatively late so I didn't use Tumblr or any websites like that as a child, just bad german clones of Facebook :p)
Since there isnt an organisation that defines sexualities the meaning can change regionally, it's basically decentralised
I definitely cant stand the slander of the beautiful flad and mrs potts tho 😂
Hmm, interesting
Thanks, Trash. 💖
okay, I'm panromantic ace (I have topped once, but that was more for them than me), I don't know if it's an acceptable stance, but yeah... my thought is if the person I'm with wants it, I can provide it, not because I feel like I need to, but more so because I think? they want me to????
That being said, I do have sexual fantasies, and read romantic stuffs, Feel emotionally attached to ladies, and also enjoy looking at phalluses, I love my falluses. I learned how to mask so quickly, and present as masc everysingle day, but among more queer folks, I definitely cackle and femme out--I'm not saying I'm femme either, I don't know... I'm 22, still figuring it all out in a way, but yeah...
Masc all day, and then more don't care when I'm among people I'm more comfortable around... I do relate a lot to the adonis, androgynous hyacinth figure.
im bi because purple is better than yellow
valid
Im bisexual. NOT PAN. Im only attracted to NB and trans women. Im a hardcore cis-phobe and trans-masc-phobe lol
Huh. This sucks but in a new and different way.
@Trash-Garbage-Trash weird, That's exactly What my wife said the first time we made love.
I also think bi and pan practically mean the same thing. The reason I prefer pan... I like the prefix better. I realise bisexual doesn't necesarily mean attraction to only 2 genders, I am aware of the history behind the identity. But personally I just prefer a prefix that doesn't mean 2. Bisexual people aren't evil or bad to me, cuz were the same lmao. There doesn't need to be discourse. Let's just all grab a beer (or a fanta) together and chill out.
I agree
You went over a lot of it in the video, but I have a bit of a different conclusion I suppose... This is mostly to type it out to explain how I feel about the weight of it?
From my point of view as a non-binary bisexual who has studied bisexual history and does bisexual activism, that the bisexual community were the first to accept trans/non-binary people and advocate openly about it because many of the bisexual activists themselves were/are under that category, even if the word "non-binary" wasn't the term used for the umbrella category of genders that fall outside binary man and woman... So when I see people say that pansexual, polysexual, omnisexual or similar terms have specificity to inclusion, I roll my eyes. From the start of the bisexual movement in the 60s, the definition was quite literally "attraction regardless of gender", and trans/non-binary people were there back then, and even further back than that, since the dawn of human beings, in their own ways.
In modern terms, the pansexual label was made out of a strange (and unfortunately, chronically online) understanding of bisexuality and erasure of bi history and activism that I can't really peacefully contend with... Then the labels that spawned out of there to refine also tended to do similar things, to recursively make bisexual "binary" (despite bisexual activists through the movement being proud of bisexuality as a /the/ distinctly non-binary and non-monosexual sexual orientation that was liberating to have, as bisexual feminists were often in conflict with the second-wave feminists/gender critical/TERF/separatists and there were quite what I can only describe as 'essay/paper wars' about it), and that is I think what makes me wary of alternative labels to bisexual.
It would be alright, if there weren't such a push to erase the magnificent history of bisexual activism -- something that I've seen people who were there through it all be very deeply sad about, because for them and for a lot of us it's not just a label, but a community born out of being pushed out of what was the "gay and lesbian liberation movement" and forged through trying to reintegrate. Trans/non-binary/GNC people were often pushed out too, only to find solace and support within the bisexual community, and we helped them integrate too. There is an LGBT because we made it together.
But I think people forget that labels are also community, at least they were once, and that the movements to gain rights were hard fought, and the AIDS crisis was hard fought -- something that took a toll on bisexuals, who worked hard for understanding, pleading to the cishets to bridge the gap and to offer assistance which they succeeded at, all while being blamed for transmission, dying in large numbers, and to this day having stigmas that will not go away from it -- and that when people started calling themselves pansexual because they weren't there and the second-wave feminists /still/ work to silence bisexual feminist activism so that their gender critical/TERF ideology can persist... It hurts in a generational way. It hurts to be told none of that ever mattered because a flag is prettier or a label that means the same thing "fits better".
Recursive redefining of bisexual, and people trying to retroactively make it something bad or wrong so that "new and improved" labels can exist, that signal morally that someone /is/ alright to have sex with a trans person! Hooray! That they love people for their souls (unlike dirty bisexuals, who love people for sex), or that they "don't see gender" (even if their partners want them to?), or bisexuals can like two or more genders (but who's counting? What an odd thing to say! Like I'm sitting here trying to judge if someone is genderfluid or bigender so that I can know if they're on the gender list before I can be attracted to them... That isn't how attraction works!)... What's the point, if not further erasure?
The push also really resulted in people not realizing that other labels can love, date, be attracted to, have sex with trans/non-binary people, and they don't need to change their label. If a straight man dates a binary trans woman, he isn't gay. If he dates a non-binary person, he isn't bisexual suddenly, either, because he doesn't like binary men. He's straight because in binary sexual orientation, which is the system that's used, he is attracted to binary women and /not/ binary men. Non-binary genders are not applicable in a system of binary sexual orientation, and as long as someone respects the non-binary identity of their partner, there is no reason for any gay, lesbian, or straight person to decide they not to date a non-binary person they're attracted to, unless they're bigoted. People who are transphobic pretty much got given an "out" to reevaluating how they feel about these things because, well, they "can't" be attracted to trans/non-binary people as monosexuals.
No matter how you slice it, it becomes troublesome. This whole mess of disrespectful, redefinition has caused real-world problems for all bisexuals. Not only are there actual research studies that show that the pushing of these definitions and aggrandizing them as "better alternatives to bisexuality" in a sense, does mental health damage to an already extremely marginalized population, but it's kind of just cruel. Bisexuals are quite literally, statistically... /The/ LGBT category with the highest amount of subjected abuse and violence, and when you add on the fact that a huge amount of bisexuals are people of color, in poverty, disabled, trans/non-binary...
And pansexuals (et cetera) /are/ bisexuals, so it all harms them, too... Even in terms of research now, the idea of separating things out makes it harder to gauge how bad/good things are for our demographics. Because when you combine all of the people who identify as labels that are synonymous to bisexual with bisexuals, it's all far /worse/, and no one is helping it get better because it looks like several different communities with troubles and not /one/ single one that can be helped through concentrated activism. Because we're back to activism, as bisexuals are still forgotten in every way, and yet mocked for having biphobia being not a "real thing", even though you can see in actual statistics how bad bisexuals have it as a severely marginalized community. Bimisogyny is on the rise, every day you can see it in how bisexual women are mocked and joked about for being in relationships with abusive/violent partners by people who harbor the same opinions as second-wave feminists. The IPV rate for bisexual women is astronomical, beyond lesbians and straight women by far, with straight women having the /least/ of the IPV... and that's a joke to people?
"Don't take your ugly boyfriend to Pride" is also a "joke", when Brenda Howard, the Mother of Pride was a polyamorous, bisexual woman. Bisexual activism has been torn apart and trampled, and I just can't get on board with it. Not as someone who is enthusiastic about queer history, not as a bisexual activist myself. I wish I could be alright with the "just a label" idea, but knowing all of this, I really just want our /whole/ community back together again. All of us. We need all the help we can get.
Sorry to write an essay in your comments, haha.
@@schampout oh yeah I agree with pretty much all of that. The way modern feminist and queer movements treat bisexuals and bisexuality is horrible and I hate the way the word has been purposely misunderstood. I often wonder if this discourse was an intentional push to harm bisexuals and divide the community.
@@schampout and I am tired of people pretending bisexual meant something different when it never, ever meant "only two" and all the studies show bi and pan people are the same people.
Can't i just be attracted to the people I'm attracted too?
Its so aggressive, and a bit backwards to judge anyone for who they are attracted to.
Its no ones buisness who I'm attracted to. I also dont make it my buisness who others are attracted to.
You can do whatever you want. I'm not stopping you.
@ 36:40 😂😂😂 #BiGang #HeySoulSistah🌈🤌❣️💪🫡🗣🫂✊️
Pansexual and bisexual mean the same thing and there's not a need for a rebrand. I do however think it's useful to have the terms Bisexual and PanRomantic. This allows for great clarity when discussing sexual and romantic interests.
I agree
@@Trash-Garbage-Trash so ... I think I will throw this out there as a video idea because I don't see it talked about enough. I would like to see a video on why bisexuals have a difficult time forming community. For gay lesbian and even trans individuals the existence of community specific language and symbols make it easier (though not easy) to form community. This is a real problem and the cause of bi erasure (if we are not seen we are not real). But even obvious things that could be adopted (bismuth) to signify bisexuality are just left on the table by the community.
I agree, it's really difficult to form community as a bisexual, I don't really understand all the complex reasons why but I think a lot of it is just the way we traumatize bisexuals in our society. Which we absolutely do.
@@Trash-Garbage-Trash It's true that bisexuals are traumatized by our society, but the reason for the lack of community can be explained sociologically. It can also be fixed by understanding how and why community forms. The key factor which inhibits group formation is the lack of cultural signifies. Basically because we can't see (identify) each other we can't form community.
How do you say you are bisexual without saying you are bisexual? How do you say you are bisexual without saying a word? If someone wanted to say they were gay, or lesbian, or trans, or a Christian, or Muslim, or Buddhist, or goth, or a skater, etc they could do so without saying a word. We do not have that. We have pretty much one thing which is both too much and not enough.
This is why I advocate steeling Bismuth and the number 83 as bisexual symbols.
The thing is nobody is talking about this, which means its a problem that can't be fixed. What I would really like to see is a bisexual youtuber push for this conversation to happen. Especially if they linked it to Bi-Visiblity day. How do we advertise ourselves both overtly and covertly? What are signs and symbols we can hijack, adopt, or create?
Bi means any two. Trans women are women, they wouldn't be excluded in bisexuality (and same for trans men). I personally haven't seen anyone who doesn't include trans women as women / trans men as men in their bisexual, or multisexual in general, experience. Binsexual (bin short for binary) is the more specific version for bisexuals who have attraction to only binary people (regardless of whether they are cisgender or trans binary).
6:30 You used the definition of multisexual (attraction to two or more genders).
I'm panromantic uranic- romantically, I don't care about gender. Sexually, I am attracted to men, man-aligned genders, neutral aligned genders and genderless genders (nothing woman related). Gender, I fluctuate between non-binary, man, and anything in between (nothing woman related).
I'm autistic, I take definitions as to how the word is and it's components. Binary means involving/revolving around two things, hence the prefix bi. Bicycles have two wheels, hence the prefix bi. There are more examples, but it seems bisexuals are the only ones who want to change the definition of the prefix definition instead of researching other identities that actually suit them.
Yeah, Bi means two but the word bisexual has never been used that way. It was simply invented at a time and place when gender was seen as being completely binary with anyone outside the binary being an abberration and a combination of the two. It has always been used to describe the exact same phenomenon as all the other words - multisexual, polysexual, omnnisexual, pansexual - it's always been used colloquially to mean attraction beyond just men or just women. And it has always applied to people who feel attraction to multiple genders, whether that's all or some. Because it was, for a very long time, the only word to describe this category of sexuality. Nowadays we have additional words but Bisexual has always been used in a way that goes beyond its root parts. It's simply an archaic word for the same concept. As I said, we have a very different understanding of gender now than people did in 1892 when the word began being used in relation to human sexuality, when it was applied to anyone who wasn't strictly straight or gay.
This strict definition using the root parts has always been the problem in this debate. We can't just look at the root parts of the word itself. We have to look at the social context in which the word was invented and used. And if you look at that, it has never, ever meant "Attraction to only men and women" and has always been used as an umbrella term meaning "Attraction to more than just men or women." We can't apply our modern understanding to words that have been around since the 1800s.
Micro labels are fine but we have to stop pretending that Bisexual has ever been used in this strict modern dictionary definition way. It wasn't and it isn't. It's always been a broad category applied to anyone outside of Gay or Straight. Being semantic about the word itself is what caused this division in the community in the first place.
@@Trash-Garbage-Trash Bisexual has been, and still is, used as two. It originally was something being of "the two sexes" (intersex). That was the definition on 1892. It only changed in 1915. Then, for a long time, it was sexual attraction towards men and women (the only two genders that were accepted at that time), as well as having both female and male characteristics (intersex). Even in the 1980's, bisexuality was only focused on the binary genders, which caused pansexual to become popular in the 1990's, as it included all genders. After this, bisexuals came out with the bisexual manifesto, "Anything that Moves," to try and eradicate (for lack of a better word) pansexuality.
Of course it is people who are attracted to multiple genders. Never said it wasn't. Two is still multiple (as multiple being 2 or more / more than 1). Hence, bisexual is a type of multisexual.
I'm not pretending about anything. Historically, it was used in at-the-time dictionary definition ways. Bi meant and still means two or twice, sexual did and still means relating to the sexes or genders. Bisexual, originally meaning intersex, did and still does follow the original definition (and is still used in biology to refer to intersex characteristics, more specifically to plant life).
No, it hasn't "always been a broad category applied to anyone outside of gay or straight." You seem to forget about asexuals. We were never included under bisexuality because we have never been seen as any form of multi or even monosexual (aside from aspec). Pansexuals were not seen, in the 1990's, as bisexual, they were seen as a threat towards bisexuality.
You are the only one's trying to change the definition of the prefix you hold in your sexuality. Homosexuals feel sexual attraction to their same gender. Heterosexuals feel sexual attraction to their opposite binary gender. Pansexuals and omnisexuals feel sexual attraction to every gender. Multisexuals feel sexual attraction to more than one gender. Asexuals feel an absense of sexual attraction.
Why is it only bisexuals who want to change their prefix's meaning?
Like and unlike genders. Two categories. Easy.
Those "uranic" space, gem, and other such "-ic" suffix labels were always obnoxious and everybody who used and uses them is so damn pushy about everybody else using them too I swear. Leave off. Not everybody wants a microlabel and not using them doesnt make people problematic. Unhinged thought processes behind this behavior. Imagine doing this to peoples gender. Tumblr probably has, it's been a while since I cared enough to look at that burning pile of tar.
To me Trans, agender, non binary and identities like it are very different. I think it's wrong to lump them all together is a mistake.
D4DJ
Who cares! What an utter waste of time!
I feel like I should explain that interacting with this video will make your algorithm show you more bisexual/pansexual content but I think at this point it's probably too late for you. Enjoy that!
I identify as pan because I like people based on personality ,my attraction has nothing to do with their parts , I find good sparkling people atractive, and I'm not bi because by people are attracted to all genders physical as well as there personality, and I do not find the two inter related at all , I am pan not bi , not that being bi is a bad thing its just not the same 🩷💛💙