KFG Responds to the William Cheung Fallout | The KFG Podcast
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- Опубликовано: 21 апр 2024
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- EPISODE NOTES
This is a follow-up to my recent episode on the controversial claims by William Cheung. Although the video was well-received by most (including a number of practitioners from Cheung’s own lineage), many seemed to miss the mark on the purpose. My issues were on the veracity of Cheung’s claims which have little to no evidence despite the sheer magnitude of his claims. If his claims were true, then we would expect much more evidence to support it, especially in the light of the internet and access we have to information about lineages in Mainland China. My video was not a slight on Cheung’s relationship with Yip Man or Bruce Lee as some attempted to strawman it into.
The KFG
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Episode Notes:
The response to this episode was overwhelmingly positive, however some watchers took aim with a story I mentioned about Chu Shong Tin (Tsui Sheung Tin) was defeated in a fight by a kick. As this is a non-rehearsed podcast, I am occasionally prone to discuss things that in hindsight I should have kept to myself. In this case I was under the impression this was a well-known story in the HK WC world, even if not the most well spread story outside. The excessive amount of time I've spent in Hong Kong has certainly skewed what I think is common knowledge outside of those who spend much time with Grandmaster Yip Man's students.
To those who demand evidence for my "claim", the story of CST being defeated was told to me on three separate occasions by three separate individuals over the course of 18 or so years. Each time it was told to me, it was told to me as a commonly known fact and not one time did I ask about the story - it was offered to me as information as part of a larger story. I was told this first by my former teacher, Sifu Leung Ting, then later by the late Sifu Chan Chee Man, and finally by a very prominent student of Wong Shun Leung. I consider a story told three times by three different individuals (with nearly identical accounts) as a strong indication that something to that effect most likely happened. I'm sorry of this is upsetting to those who follow the teachings of the late CST, but one should be allowed to be open with information to learn from mistakes in the past. The fact that someone lost a fight once does not discredit them as an instructor - we learn more from our losses than our wins. If it makes you feel better, Sifu Leung Ting was accused of beating up his pregnant mistress (he was eventually found not guilty). There? See, we can be adults.
@@jusgivmeafknusernamepretty much the same since saying he lost a fight once is just saying it more casually. You don’t need to look for a reason to disagree with him just because you don’t like what he said and you still can go on believing the fight didn’t happen since the stories he was told will likely be the only proof of it one way or another.
“Massively different claims” - The line “famously lost his one and only fight” being compared to a general statement of “someone lost a fight once” (context: that “lost fight” not being the final say in one’s prowess) is silly because it’s a conciliatory point to say that CST shouldn’t be judged by that one performance. Context is hard though, I get it.
Ok I’ve been paid by the anti-cST party to diminish his incredible fighting record. I’m a paid shill. Feel better?
The reason I come up with a juvenile response is because you at no point actually addressed my points to which I heard identical accounts from three different independent sources over the course of 18 years. The fact that it’s news to you and upsetting, doesn’t mean it didn’t happen. Perhaps you should go to Hong Kong and ask around a bit. You also have a RUclips account which does not reveal your name, so as far as I’m concerned I’m dealing with an insincere interlocutor. Go ahead and make a video about all of his fights. I’d love to watch it.
Saying someone lost a fight is not an extraordinary claim, but claiming someone had a bunch of fights that no one saw or heard about is.
You have done nothing but get salty about me for saying it but when I told l you where my info came from, you say nothing and try to go on some personal attack. Sir, you are a sock puppet account hiding your true identity. Why should I even pretend to take you seriously?
If you are serious, you could meet me in Hong Kong in August of this year and I will take you to people who will tell you the story. Then you can claim that they are trying to assassinate CST’s legendary fighting record to their faces. And if you take the time to read another comment thread, you will see that there was another commenter who corroborated this loss.
Most serious martial artists have lost fights and lost exchanges. I wouldn’t trust anyone who has no video record of them fighting who says they have never lost a fight. It’s part of the learning process and it seems to agitate people who themselves have never been in a proper scrap. Grow up people lose fights , if you don’t want to believe me on this, I really don’t care you don’t have the courage even say who you are.
@@TheKungFuGenius Love your Podcasts and Videos !!! There's a few Topics that really get certain types of people riled up and they are relentless Trolls who have to be Blocked and or Deleted !!! Arguing with them is a monumental waste of time and typing !!! LOL. I've been called a "Bruce Lee Fanboy" even though I'm not a fanatic and I've called the "Sock Puppet" Trolls, "MMA,UFC Fanboys" !!!! LOL. Let's face it, if someone insults or resorts to personal attacks, Name calling we'll reciprocate !!! LOL. BTW , "Sock Puppet" to describe all those no Name Trolls with no Profile Photo or the Courage to reveal themselves is so frigging hilariously funny my Brother @thekungfuGenius !!!! LOL. 😂🤣 it's the way I'll describe them as well !!!! Your definitely a Genius !!! LOL.
I'm a friend of KFG from the Traditional Wing Chun (TWC) community, and I found his retelling of the William Cheung story respectful and well-executed. Even as a newcomer to Cheung's organization, I've always had reservations about the various origin stories in Wing Chun Kung Fu. That's why I prefer the term Cheung Style Wing Chun over TWC due to its associated baggage. It's important to approach beliefs with skepticism and demand evidence, so criticizing KFG's critical examination of myths is shallow thinking. KFG did an excellent job, kudos to him.
Thank you!
This is a good show. Mad fun. 😛✊💯
More about William Cheung…
I trained with him for a total of 28 years beginning in 1983.
In the early days he taught BOTH parallel leg (blindside) techniques AND fighting from the cross leg position position.
As time went on (by the mid-late 1990’s) he started teaching the blindside strategy virtually exclusively.
But those of his students like myself who started with him in the early 80’s learned to deal with both possibilities pretty extensively.
Why he changed his emphasis as time went on I don’t know.
But one thing is for sure in my experience : you need to be able to fight within both contingencies.
Big fan of martial arts in all forms and disciplines, never practiced in official fights. I knew nothing about wing chun apart from the legends and films of kung fu... which makes the KFG channel one of my sources of informative knowledge which pays a real homage to the discipline while demystifying nonsense and re-establish some truths, always factual, always in a good mood. So thank you to KFG and the whole team. And that's all I gotta say about that. 👊🏽 💥 😉
Congratulations on 169 episodes! I've enjoyed them all. I have a future show suggestion. How about showing some of your favorite and unique items from your library?
Some corrections about the William Cheung - Emin Boztepe analysis you did…
William Cheung was one month away from his 46th birthday when this happened.
He stood 5’10” tall and weighed 160
Boztepe was half his age and stood 6’ tall and clearly outweighed William by at least 15 lbs.
It wasn’t just Boztepe, a friend with a camera, and one more friend with Boztepe.
There as 4th guy there from the Leung Ting - Keith Kernspect world named Andrew Draheim.
Two guys flanked William Cheung while Boztepe stood in the middle of them and challenged William Cheung….
Who told Boztepe that he would have to wait until after the seminar…but Boztepe didn’t like that answer and charged at Eilliam Cheung.
William kicked him backwards to where he he was originally standing.
When he charged again William through another kick but this time Boztepe got passed the kick and started to body kick William…who responded by putting Boztepe in a standing headlock.
Not the other way around as you made a pint of saying…the video clearly shows what I am talking about.
Regarding the video: it was EDITED - which is why it starts with Boztepe’s 2nd charge.
Him getting kicked away was not something the Boztepe crowd wanted anyone to see.
Next: Boztepe did not hand even one solid pinch on William.
Next: when William managed to kick out of the situation. And hit back to his GM feet us when the video is once again edited…
William getting back to his feet unmarked and not hurt was once again something the Boztepe wanted anyone to see.
Next: William KNEW about the man with camera because he saw him.
One week later William was in NYC for another seminar and called a nesting of the NYC TWC instructors and I was there.
He told everything I just wrote…
Regarding the 4th man who you neglected to mention: 10 years later this man ANDREW DRAHEIN came into my school after putting a sky in my school 3 weeks earlier…
And found out the three weeks idiot I had double hernia surgery and wasn’t even able to lift a leg yet.
He challenged me in front Of my students, caa as liked me a coward when I refused, told me that he was there 10 years prior with Boztepe, and referred to William Cheung as a piece if shit”…
One week later he caught a beat down and had me arrested for assault.
When he failed to appear in court two weeks later the judge dismissed the charges.
Andrew Draheim was a German instructor in NYC in the 90's. I do not believe he had any involvement in the 86 incident.
I got to acknowledge to you Sifu Alex full hearted that you're one of very few people that are pragmatist, logical grounded analyzing Martial Arts History from scientific point of view studying the Facts!
As i said to you numerous times we NEED more people like you communicate with Critical Thinking in Kung Fu and Especially in Wing Tsun/Chun.
I might be wrong but i think o Αριστοτέλης for his critical thinking by logic and deduction and Θουκυδίδης as the first Historian who presented Historical Facts by research might be your favourite.
Great Podcast with objective historical analysis without prejudice or taking sides!
Greetings from Greece!
Good information. On Chu Shong Tin, there is a RUclips video of him saying that he maybe saw Bruce Lee once or twice so he definitely never made the claim that he taught him. Also him “famously” losing his one and only fight is something I have never heard. What is the source of this story. What I’ve heard is that he accompanied Wong Shun Leung and Lok Yu to participate in many rooftop fights but nothing near the extent that WSL did, who loved it.
Your recount of CST accompanying WSL is correct. He fronted up to take the challenge and his opponent backed out. CST brother did however cop a beating. I can’t remember if Lok was also there. Possibly.
Bruce went to train with CST several times but he was looking for something different. He trained with WSL from that time on.
I had actually meet William Cheung a few times when I trained at his school. The man has an ego problem and a problem with his temper. He has had a lot of people that run his school in Melbourne Australia left and trained under of Wing Chun instructors.
A couple of years ago, I offered some constructive criticism to a couple of TWC instructors with 20+ years experience in William Cheung system. They had made a video. I mentioned that if they did what they did, then they would contradict the Wing Chun close range principle. To which they admitted, that TWC is not a close range system.
So coming to my point, if Leung Bik had tought anyone anything. No doubt we can assume it would be close range material. Just like what Leung Jan first taught to Chan Wah Shun. And then later again when he shared a more in-depth part of his Wing Chun knowledge, in form of the Pin San principles.
Great episode as always. 🙏
Awesome episode! :)
Great mix
Thanks ✌️
I think you're right; Cheung made his own modifications to Wing Chun and put the "secret style" line out for sake of either marketing or credibility.
I have a DVD of Cheung's, but when I bought it I was not yet a WC practictioner at the time. Now that I've got a couple of years' worth of actual training under my belt, I may revisit the video and do a comparison of the styles.
Us TWC guys should band together and confront William Cheung.
And how laughable is that?!
We learned something excellent from GM Cheung.
Its only a suggestion. You could always shift to HFY taking with you everything you've learned from TWC. Atleast HFY gets their history straight. Unless you wanna live in a lie... William needs to come clean and not deceive his students anymore.
@@MrOsiric What does the existence of HFY with their 'straight' history and the fact that it is very similar to TWC tell you? Is it something that supports the idea that Cheung was taught a different system, or does it support the idea that he modified what he learnt and made up TWC? What does it tell you about that this isn't even mentioned let alone discussed in Alex's video?
@@adamwoodman4477 its inconclusive.. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck. Is it really a duck? Or just a man in a donald duck suit? Its possible he learned from the same source as HFY... Its also possible that he might have spied on preHFY like chan wa shun in his narration of yipman history and then... modified his yipman wingchun. You could spin it a 1000 ways..It's really a weakness in reporting history because you need evidence and most of the time evidence is perishable ... or simply things were deliberately done in secret... @VictorParlati said WC already denied it... I hope HFY will say something interesting..:)
I've been practicing WC since 1995 and teaching since 2000, your reasonable and factual takes on WC are very refreshing, many of your perspectives and opinions align with mine 👍🏽
thank you sir!
Will this be a traditional episode or a modified one?
It's a MODITIONAL 😂❤ one.
I remember reading in some material somewhere many years ago of Bruce Lee actually being booked on the Johnny Carson show just before he died as he was wrapping up ETD. Does anyone know if there's any validity to that rumor?
It was written in one of his final letters if my memory serves correctly.
Lowly Karate guy here but I really enjoy your podcast... love your taste in music too. I'm sure you know him but if not, I think you'd enjoy a channel "Rap is a Martial Art."
Also is there somewhere I can find the full version of the Kung Fu Genius theme song?
SoundCloud!
@@TheKungFuGenius Thank you good sir!
One thing I did notice was, you know how people teach bridging. And depending on the lineage, they might face lefty on a righty, or right on right. Well. The way I learned was that TAN on a left hand let’s say, is a great inside far away scoop on a righty. Loy line. Bong goes perfect from there too. Pak as well pushes/slaps the forearm elbow. And fook just using the wrist to forearm to put too much stuff above his hand. But using all 4 in a lefty BIJONG feels differently than bridging southpaw against a righty cutting in gua choy fung hao and all that good stuff. Just meaning WHY do some people teach to make it hard by facing away? When all we need to do is face them and shift wherever necessary. Using tan to catch a lop or any of the others to tie and bundle. ❤just curious.
35:20 Robert Dreeben was one of the best writers for "Inside Kung Fu" magazine in the 1980s and 90s. I remember some very interesting articles, especially about Tai Chi-related topics. Wonder if this is the same person.
Wow, thank you for the compliment! Yes that’s me. I’m a big fan of the show!
I knew the name was familiar!
Beat me to it. I remember reading an article back in the 90's specifically on WC and how he thought it was the perfect system. I might still have a copy of it somewhere.
there are people who are "masters" of multiple styles, teach dozens of forms, etc. but when they are put under pressure, what do you think their response would be? would they do a move from one style, and then another technique from another, etc? or would they just stick to whatever their body has become accustomed to and respond with that? you can get your answer by looking at the youtube videos of wc against anything else. if ym had 2 separate lineages inside him, would it not come out when he's put under pressure by his students while doing heavy duty chi sau? or was he a even bigger kfg that he could keep using the modified style forever and not use the traditional stuff at all?
some more clarification about the old 5 elders from shaolin stories: there are actually 2 sets of 5 elders belonging to 2 differenct (though similar) stories. the original story from the tian dei wui is the shaolin 5 ancestors (siu lam ng jo, the same ng jo as in ng jo kuen (5 ancestors fist), a popular style in fujian, taiwan, and southeast asia). these 5 monks have no monk names, but regular chinese names, and are the ancestors worshipped by the hung mun. and the burning of the shaolin temple happened during the reign of kang xi (1661-1722). the second story is about the 5 elders of shaolin (siu lam ng lo), the 4+1 familiar figures common in cantonese folklore. the characters, incidentally first appeared in a novel called maan nin qing (aka adventures of emperor qian long in southern china). qian long (1735-1796) was the grandson of kang xi. it's easy to conflate the two, but you have been talking about apples and oranges. but to add an even more strange plot point, the monk ji sin, who was supposed to have taught hung hey gwoon, the originator of hung kuen (in the second story), has to live over 100 years to have done other stuff, like teaching luk ah choi, the teacher of wong kei ying and a very young wong fei hung (this is when legends merge into history), and became a cook on the red boats to teach leung yi tai (and some say wong wah bo) the pole, all this around the times of the tai ping rebellion (1850-1864), not to mention going to the fei loi temple and teach his weng chun and 6.5 pole to the tang family. the latter seems to have some historical evidence to ji sin having existed, so the former one during the qian long years may well have been fiction.
According to a conservative estimate (from 1960’s scholarship), there are at least 12 variations of the burning of the Shaolin Temple/Hung Mun creation myth. Each variation (which is basically each newer retelling) is more fantastic and less plausible than the one that came before.
Modern day kung fu mythology plagiarizes the later and less plausible versions of the myth, with the names of the five elders changed to suit the made up narratives created by contemporary sifus. Even in the “original” Hung Mun tradition there is a version for the southern Shaolin Temple, and the northern Shaolin Temple (with yet another set of five elders, this time with different names in Mandarin rather than Cantonese). It’s theorized in that same scholarship that this was just to appeal to the various factions of the original triad groups so they would have some fabricated local squabble as a “cause” - a false flag southern temple burning for the south and a false flag northern temple for the north.
In other words, it’s all absolute muddle.
Hi guys. Just found this channel. Great job!
Hey, thanks!
In relation to the modification topic, I believe it was WSL who convinced Ip Man to add garn sau to SLT after having a fight where jum sau wasn't effective for a low strike. They were all completely open to modifications.
I'm CST lineage so I know a little from that perspective. One of CST's most senior students told me that CST didn't really know Bruce Lee. He knew who he was but that was about it. One time Bruce was around and was bragging about his kicks so CST asked him to show him. Bruce couldn't even lift his legs because CST would just kick Bruce's leg before he could raise the leg up. As for losing a fight I've never heard about that. He was a really modest guy so I'm sure he wouldn't care either way. Maybe it was earlier in his training. If you want better info on CST then just ask Nima King. Maybe you can do an episode together.
thanks for your comment. you can check out my episode note comment pinned at the top for more info!
If it works in the streets than it’s the authentic WC
The “tough guy rules” of determining facts confuse individual performance with that which is true. But it’s a badass platitude so the masses will find wisdom in it.
-Student of Moy Yat in Ving Tsun for 8 years
-Student of William Cheung (Traditional Wing Chun) for 28 years…
-There are MANY significant differences in the two systems
-And Garret Gee’s Hung Fa Yee system is the same as William Cheung’s
-once asked William Cheung if he knew Garrett Gee and he said NO
MY CONCLUSIONS ?
William Cheung did NOT invent TWC - he must have learned it from someone.
And Garrett Gee must have learned HFY from someone.
Draw your own conclusions…
Hi Alex hope you’re well. , I will throw this at you. , david Peterson and Barry pang. Have footage of William doing the h k. Form s in super 8 I believe taken at footsgrey market Chinese New Year I believe. Cheers
By Hong Kong form you mean the orthodox version we all know?
More of these in depth history videos please I absolutely love these.
History of Yip Man etc have all been great. Would love to here more on WSL, I know you've covered him before but his story is interesting. Sifu David Peterson, as you know has great stories that I've been listening to.
I met David Peterson when he taught in Melbourne in the early 90s, he was a very sharp guy who was totally dedicated to kung fu, and funny to boot. I've often wondered where he is now.
In addition to my other comments…
I believe that Alex Richter’s assertion that TWC is simply modifications William Cheung’s made to the Ving Tsun he learned from Ip amen….
To be TOTALLY FALSE.
And again, referring back to my other recent comments - there is the question of Garret Gee and his HFY wing Chun system…
It’s the SAME as TWC.
And when this was brought to William Cheung’s attention (I was one of those who did that)….he said that he didn’t know Garrett Gee and never met him.
So my conclusion after all these years (since 1975) is that a William Cheung snd Garrett Gee learned from the same source.
Who, what, where, and how we will probably never know.
But I can tell you this: Willism Cheung DID NOT just make a few modifications and then it TWC.
That did not happen. There are too many major differences in the two systems for that to be the case.
I am in a position to know given all the years I trained with William Cbeung and with Moy Yat.
The differences in the footwork alone (although there is also much more thst is different)…
nullifies the idea that William Cheung simply made it all up.
Alex is aware that HFY exists but writes it off as a TWC copy because he had 'deep conversations with people in hong kong' while in this episode give us a tips on how to be a historian. The idea that TWC is a legitimate historical style with links to another existing linage seems to much of a cognitive dissonance for him to consider or even share with his listeners as it gives some credibility to WCs claims, and sinks Alex's idea that TWC is just Cheungs modifications. However, that HFY exists doesn't mean that Yip Man learnt it and passed it on to Sifu Cheung, it just adds weight to the possibility, something Alex does not seem to want to allow in his discussion and speaks volumes about his conscious/unconscious motivations. To not even mention this after our discussion in the comments of your original video is a 'MASSIVE RED FLAG' as you define it, Alex.
@@adamwoodman4477 If i may comment, the proof needs to be more substantial than just picking up rumors and speculations and painting it as fact. I could understand why KFG would steer clear from this conjecture. All it takes is for any of their representative to deny it....
I've watched a certain wing chun historian who has been claiming something about Yikkam this.. and Yikkam that... and then suddenly a representative from that group denied his claim and any affiliation with him. With a blow like that, now he is seething and claiming lineage to General Chi Gi Guang (who has long been dead and cant complain :P) as greater than all your wing chun... LOL :)
I agree with you. Unless he has done some actual research and studied the systems even at a distance he should not make the claim that HFY is a TWC copy.
I was graded to instructor by WC and visited the HFY headquarters where I was welcomed and shown the differences between the two. I also read the HFY GMs book. So based on my actually experience and observation I can say that I believe the two systems came from the same root at some point, they share many similarities in application and technique but there are also conceptual differences and different techniques.
@@adamwoodman4477 by yours and @VictorParlati 's assertion TWC 's credibility is technically sunk.. if you can get HFY leaders to chime in... Now that's a party! I hope they step into the limelight... credit where credit's due.
Yet another well balanced podcast.
Bravo to Mr KFG and the crew.
thank you!
In Way of the Dragon , Bruce Lee’s character demonstrates a powerful side kick on a kicking shield. Why was this scene shot with Lee’s back to the camera?
Because he preferred kicking with his powerful right leg and it’s the way the scene was blocked.
And Alex further gossip when William left for Canberra he forgot the forms. He got his brother david whom was a student of Wong shun Leung too film sil lim tao and chum kil I have seen this footage in corrs lane in 79
Interesting!
Yes Alex the normal versions now the story I got. Was William had 3 original students. A guy called Ross maybe Dobson. Not sure about that last name. He taught them everything according too sifu pang. William cracked it and said he would never teach Aussie s like that again, ps not saying this is tge gospel
Hello I hope you dont mind but have you ever tried to have Dan Inosanto or Angela Mao on the podcast?
Thank you for your question. I think at this point I might need to create a FAQ section because I get this question at least once a month. Sifu Inosanto is difficult to land as a guest mainly because his wife is also his manager and she is like the iron curtain. I could ask for a favor from people who know him, but I feel uncomfortable doing those things. Angela is a good friend but doesn’t speak English.
@@TheKungFuGenius Wow well Thank you for the response. I really love the chanel and the work you do. Perhaps Angela could interview through an interpreter I would actually chip in for that (seriously)...Thank you for keeping the truth of Bruce's genius alive...my respect
I suspected that modifications to styles will eventually be made by different students with different experiences, different influences/exposure and different levels of comprehension. ( So variants, including highly divergent ones will end up popping up. )
And What if ... the double swords that aren't "Butterfly Swords", are being called "Thumb Hook Knives" ?
And what if Leung Bik taught Yip Mun a totally secret, totally mysterious, totally unknown, alternate universe timeline style of ... "Hsing Yi" ? ( Before a mysterious Amnesia Spell was casted on Yip Mun until he suddenly met William who broke the spell and re-casted it again on his teacher for no apparent reason whatsoever, so no one else noticed ? )
The default position is skepticism, and claims need to be proven with evidence. If we go to the “what if” route, then why do facts matter? Because you know, it could totally be something else that I just made up right? I mean the fact that I said something could happen means it did?
@TheKungFuGenius - Exactly, unless we bear witness to it directly or find enough substantial evidence to lead to a logical conclusion.
Then again, what if I met up with a Dark Mage with a Time God App installed that allows the downloading of visions of ancient times in your mind ... ( Okay, I need to stop myself from conjuring absurd scenarios. )
What if Beavis and Butt-Head traveled back in time to learn Wing Chun?
@TheKungFuGenius - Did they fought off Ancient Ninja Clans, obtained Secret Winged Chunning Artifacts, fought off a resurrected Zombie Cyborg Alternate Timeline I.P. Man and saved the Kingdom of Eng Choon from an Evil God before marrying Princess Yongchun and Princess Wumei ?
But I have done my research and TWC and HFY are the same. My research a Moy Yat Ving Tsun friend of mine gong to a Garrett Gee seminar and telling me what he saw and showed me photos of the seminar flier
And I’ve looked at all the magazine articles that came out about Garrett Gee…TWC is the same system but without all he hoopla about time, space, energy, blah, blah, blah.
I had previously shown my VT friend a lot about TWC and he KNEW he was looking at the same system I had been showing him when he was at the Garrett Gee seminar.
Enough said.
You guys at TWC have to band together and confront WC about this. If you've been spending time and money to learn from someone only to find out they are lies, that's just too cruel. You could sue him... I'd automatically drop that person on principle of what else could he be lying about? How would you feel when the child you your wife borne and raised looks like your gardener... :P Facts and Lineage matter because you're learning something that has roots in tradition rather than some modern method. Your traditional martial arts IS your research inherited from someone with legit credentials.. and not some charlatan.
@KFG if I share with you a video of me training would you respond and let me know what you think?
I do offer online private training and single consultation (links in the description).
I hate to even get involved in this conversation, but my two cents... You don't think a kung fu expert who probably knew several different styles, or was at least familiar with them, could make up something in the fly? Really? And also, if you don't think that kung fu teachers had reservations about teaching their style to anyone and everyone, maybe you should look into some kung fu history... Like a little bit? Some styles would only teach one person per generation. My best advice beyond that would be learn both, test them honestly and see which works better.
a style which used a completely different fighting theory, completely different stance, completely different positions, with different form choreography? and then keep this fake style straight while teaching two different ones? sure buddy.
@@TheKungFuGeniusI just left a class, different style of king fu, and this teacher knows 4 different versions of the forms from the same style, and that's just one of the 4 different styles of kung fu that he knows. And he can keep them all straight. And he also knows 2 different versions of that type of kung fu. So I guess that's technically 5 different styles of kung fu he knows. And he can keep them all straight. I think you're really limiting your mind on what's possible by thinking that way pal. But that's not my problem friend😉
Most Kung Fu artists who “know multiple styles” just know a bunch of different forms. This is not the same as using two similar functional fighting styles but secretly not teaching one. Also what you’re missing in giving this obvious fairy tale credence is that Grandmaster Yip Man was not “secretly” practicing one style to compare it to another; there is no evidence that he was ever doing something related to this “secret style”.
“Well it could have happened” is not evidence of anything because it permits any narrative, no matter how ridiculous, to be given equal credit. That’s not how judging claims work.
@@TheKungFuGenius oh hey, and you know what else I think is ironic? I studied Cheung style but when I look at your version I see things and I'm like, why did you get that part and I didn't, and why did we get this part and you didn't? If it's even true that yip man taught different versions, then maybe he was trolling us all. And then I watch Adam Chan, who's a genius btw, and he says why didn't Wing Chun include this one thing in the technique or this other thing, and I'm like, um... It did? But that's higher level stuff. Oh yea that's right I learned from a different version. I can't tell if he's really figuring these things out, and coming up with it on his own, or if he's just dropping hints that he knows a lot more than he's letting on. I think that dude is one of the real geniuses out of all of us btw. Anyways, as far as the different footwork goes I can see where the shifting and feet sliding to generate power can be very useful, but also see why the stepping in William Cheung's version would be useful on uneven ground and for maneuvering. I'd love to learn both tbh. And we could probably debate subtle nuances all day. Did a girl named Wing Chun really witness a crane fighting a snake? Or was it a fox fighting a snake? Or was it a crane fighting a fox while they were both fighting a snake? Which version is true friendorino? I need answers broski.
@@TheKungFuGenius at the end of the day I can't really disagree with what you're saying. But have you seen Tu Teng Yao? That dude seems amazing. You should check him out. Are his videos sped up? Or is he really that fast? Which version is he doing? I want to learn his version. I need answers buddy.
Thank you for these past two videos! IMO, based on the weight of the evidence, William Cheung probably made his own Wing Chun modifications and that William Cheung Wing Chun ought to properly be discussed alongside other 20th Century Martial Arts innovations like Kajukenbo or as an antecedent to Jeet Kune Do. However, there is one remaining element to this conversation which I hope you would address in a future video: if taken literally, William Cheung's claims only make sense to fans of Jin Yong novels without true martial arts knowledge, but they DO make 100% sense in terms of the traditional 'Chinese Humble-brag' where in certain Confucian contexts, it was considered extremely improper or unfilial to claim your own innovations for yourself and necessitating an attribution to obtaining it from a revered teacher. After all, if you look at Xingyiquan, there is no way in hell that style was ACTUALLY passed all the way down from Yue Fei in the Song Dynasty (same with Taijiquan and Zhang Sanfeng, etc). However, within that culture, they had to claim this sort of historical connection.
A fun experiment would be to compile all the styles attributed to Yue Fei (Ngok Fei)...
This was well done..
Loved the William Cheung story. KFG is always balanced in his critiques. I just have one question: What is the name of that book that talks about analyzing historical stories and evidence?
I take the Ng Mui story how I take the narrative about dirty belts that people are so sure of. You're supposed to take a lesson from the story itself not anything literal
I think giving this plagiarized drivel “a deeper meaning” is being awfully charitable.
In other words, telling the lesson that (insert: Wing Tsun can be learned quickly) or (insert: Wing Tsun works for smaller against bigger) can be done without fairy tales and bullshit ties to a temple.
54:25 People believe some bloke took pairs of animals in a boat, so it's hardly surprising.
Wow, I didn't know Dre had a dog.
Didn't Yip Man secretly teach a Chinese-speaking Englishman right after William finished his secret class?
The idea of Sherlock Holmes knowing Kung-Fu is a nod to this man.
I might have just made that up, combining stuff I heard here.
You really should have live shows
1. You will get more followers
2. More dono's
3. Better questions asked
I have watched channels grow fast from live casts. Also none live.
I prefer live and its 90% of what i watch. I love interacting with the hosts.
However, you need to do you
Do you know how Sijo Demiles was confronted by Willam Cheung about Sijos wing chung ??
the podcast is highly edited. it would not be as polished live. Especially with that Dreison Patreon idiot. LOL JK love ya Dre.
we plan to do more "lives". my travel and teaching schedule has been making this a bit difficult lately. thanks for the suggestion!
I distinctly remember the controversy of William Cheung's claims in the 80s of having the only 'true' style of Wing Chun as taught to him secretly by Yip Man. As an untrained kid who had been steeped in the idea of closed door disciples getting the good stuff, it seemed plausible back then. The issues of Inside Kungfu are still in my collection somewhere, culminating in the title 'A Wing Chun Mugging In Germany!'. I'll have to listen to this podcast, dig out the articles and read them with new eyes. Back in the early 90s, David Peterson told me that after the incident, William Cheung had a lot of bruising to his face, and was always accompanied by a couple of large guys after that. I seem to recall asking David what he thought of William Cheung's claims about TWC, I vaguely think he said they didn't have a lot of merit.
HOW DARE YOU ( best Greta voice )
Eric Oram is a strange dude.
Oh dear Mr KFG, if i drained the Caspian sea would there be enough hot nonsense from this topic to fill it back up....?😅
I was threaten to get beat up by one of William Chun students because I was talking about how stupid the blind side technique is because people actually move when they’re fighting. They don’t stand there with their arms out waiting for you to do a stupid ass trick.
Good news ...
If you had ever taken a boxing or wrestling class, you would have wiped the floor with him.
And the funny thing is that he text all the threats to me and I have all the threats on screenshot. I would love to send it to you, kung fu genius to see how stupid these people are.
Boom. I’m in. 😛☑️💯4:27 right. And see that’s the thing. Sifu Cheung (flying) 😂said that IPMAN taught a fake version if I’m correct. 😂❤made up by GAANG SAO WONG. When in reality, we know WILLIAM and SHEUNG LEUNG were both definitely students of IP, but there was no fake version, that’s very ARROGANT. 😊🤘🏼💡💯my 2 cents. 10:32 I had an idea for a movie. Maybe it could be produced cheap. I know a guy named HIRO who has a way in to movies. And my friend SAJ MARTIAL ARTIST. The idea? “BACKFIST” the real Bruce Lee story. 💯🤘🏼😎24:50 The way I see that whole Bruce being kicked out of school and what was the real version thing, to me, none of that matters, only because with all the different theories and methods, we can draw and pick from any that we like. So that’s a hidden benefit. 😎👈🏻and Bruce getting kicked out sounds crazy. I think he started doing moves from other structures and probably brought criticism on himself is more likely. As in “Why aren’t you using the collection methods of control Bruce?” ❤28:16 heres my logic on that. If you remember Bruce’s movies, he might stick his arm in front of a dudes face like a DEEP MUN SAO and use that same arm to back fist. You can picture IPMAN saying, “Where’s the JUT and straight palm? ❤😂Na mean! 💯😉31:32 I’m having a Dutch apple pie right now. BUNG. 😂45:40 FACTS futian white crane: 😊🤘🏼
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i love kfg , i love you lets share the love i want to feel in that room
thank you!
One more addition to my previous two posts…
It’s all about what can be done with the wing chun one has learned.
It’s not about history and myths, fables, lineages, etc.
What can you DO with the
wing chun you’ve learned?
Clearly people like William Cheung, Wing Shun Leung, Bruce Lee, Duncan Leung, Victor Kan and some others earned their street cred.
You want to know the true value of Wing Chun as a martial art?
And where it stands in relation to other martial arts - including boxing and wrestling?
Then look that those who actually proved something in combat.
OR you can spend decades researching Wing Chun history and debating the meaning of this or that ad infinitum.
The latter has become a whole cottage industry within the Wing Chun world.
And contributes to the bad reputation Wing Chun has received for the most part within the overall martial arts world.
Nearly all traditional, classical kung fu is hot nonsense. Little more than lion dance, dim sum, and old men telling tall tales around a mahjong table (historically fueled by a shit-ton of opium).
hard to disagree with this comment!