The Problem with William Cheung's Claims | The KFG Podcast
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- Опубликовано: 31 мар 2024
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- EPISODE NOTES
Sifu William Cheung is a controversial figure in the Wing Chun world. In this episode, I tackle the problems with Sifu Cheung’s claims. Nothing in this video should be taken as an attack on Sifu Cheung’s former abilities as a fighter or the fact that he was a direct student of Grandmaster Yip Man and a friend to the late Bruce Lee. This video tackles the problems with Sifu Cheung’s claims regarding the “Cologne incident” and his seemingly revisionist take on the history of Wing Chun.
There is a small flub in the video - I refer to Unique Publications as being owned by Black Belt Magazine when it was actually owned by Inside Kung Fu Magazines. References to Black Belt Magazine should be changed to “Inside Kung Fu”. Sorry for the confusion.
The KFG
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Развлечения
UPDATED-
Hey KFG Viewers!
I’m pinning this here as I’ve had to write some version of this to multiple commenters who seem to miss my caveats, throat-clearings, and who have seemed to ignore the points I made and assume I made points that I in fact didn’t make.
Thanks,
The KFG
1. Did I say or imply that William Cheung did not learn from Grandmaster Yip Man?
No, I did not. I very clearly prop up the fact that he was a legitimate student of the late Grandmaster multiple times throughout the video. While people may take issue with Sifu Cheung’s claims, I have yet to hear anyone seriously say that he was not a student of Yip Man.
2. Did I say or imply that William Cheung did not know or wasn't friends with Bruce Lee?
No, I did not. I mention their friendship in this video and in many others.
3. Does William Cheung having a relationship with either Yip Man or Bruce Lee matter to the topic of this video?
No, it does not. As of this writing, not a single critic of this video has offered up a point of evidence that Mr. Cheung’s claims on the history of Wing Chun are true. I’ve only been offered irrelevant nuggets like “he was a legit student of Yip Man” or “he taught Bruce Lee” - two claims which have ZERO to do with whether the history he sells is authentic. In debate, if the topic is “William Cheung’s claims on the history of Wing Chun are problematic” the answer from the opposing side should not be “he was a legit student of Yip Man”. That is a non sequitur and not relevant to the topic at all. Nor should the answer from the opposing side be that “William Cheung knew Bruce Lee” or that he has “healed” people with his “Meridian Therapy”. One’s medical skills or relationship with other people do not bestow one with historical inerrancy.
4. But what about (insert some attack on Leung Ting’s character/history/etc.)?
First, in case you haven’t noticed, I am not Leung Ting. I left his association in 2011. Some people seem to not want to concede this (me not being Leung Ting). Both Leung Ting and William Cheung are polarizing figures in the world of Wing Chun. If you are from either of these lineages and don’t want to concede that point, I really don’t know where to start with you. I find it odd that when pressed on William Cheung's historical claims (the ONLY thrust of this video), a common defense is an ad hominem attack on Leung Ting. If you watched this video, I say that the incident with Cheung/Boztepe was not a good thing and I say some brutally honest things about Leung Ting’s suspicious attitudes towards Cheung. I refuse to believe I’m the only one in the Wing Chun world who can be self-deprecating or reflective about his own lineage while everyone else religiously and blindly defends “their guy”. When I’ve said less than favorable things about Leung Ting in the past, I did not read any comments from other lineages (not the least of which, Cheung’s lineage) come to defend or press me on my points. There are a few comments in this video from those in the William Cheung lineage that support this video (Anthony Iglesias for one). I implore you to think why Anthony didn’t need to invoke Leung Ting in discussing “his” polarizing guy.
For the people in the back who didn’t understand that last point - Leung Ting could be a serial cat killer who fraudulently teaches Ed Parker Kenpo Karate mixed with Savate and Spanish fencing and calls it “Wing Tsun” - and none of that would redeem William Cheung's claims on history. William Cheung's claims are his and were made, presumably, without Leung Ting in mind. Disputations of his claims have nothing to do with Leung Ting, who was only ONE of many from the VTAA who called out Cheung’s claims. Leung Ting's controversies don't redeem William Cheung's claim for a second. Most of the Leung Ting haters in the comments would foam at the mouth to know half of the "bad stuff" I know about Leung Ting. That still doesn't give William Cheung a pass at implying that Leung Jan and Yip Man were confidence tricksters, while presenting zero evidence other than he said so.
5. What was even the point of this video?
In case you haven’t realized, there are not many “new” stories happening about Kung Fu or Wing Chun (of any spelling) these days. If I only talked about “new stuff” then I would be limited to discussing the delusional Wing Chun guys with no ring fighting experience who fight in the ring against a pro. A weekly, hour plus long podcast about Kung Fu is bound to discuss things from the past.
For those of you who don’t think I had a point discussing William Cheung then I invite you to ask why you didn’t think I had a point when I discussed the Fight Quest debacle or my spat with Leung Ting in the press that spawned the Kung Fu Genius nickname? Where was the outrage on those videos? Oh wait, it’s because those videos weren’t about THEIR guy.
To conclude, I avoided this topic for years as is evidenced by the recurring joke in previous seasons about me ignoring direct questions about Cheung/Boztepe/controversies etc. Now I only take questions from Patreons, and well, a paying Patreon asked. That’s the “point” of this video. For people who get upset at this video, did you not hear my long throat clearing of unease about this topic? Also, I barely have 11K subscribers. Nothing about the reach of this video will harm you.
6. Unchecked historical claims are not innocent embellishments.
Grandiose claims made about the history of Wing Chun affect the rest of us. A claim that stigmatizes some as “modified” and props one as “traditional” (read: authentic) is more than a personal in-house claim whispered behind closed doors. William Cheung’s claims affect a history that involves everyone in the Yip Man family, even if not a single serious historian takes them seriously.
The thrust of this video was discussing the problematic nature of William Cheung’s historical claims, namely those about the history of Wing Chun and the nature of his issue in Cologne, Germany. Many of his claims are asserted without evidence (the Leung Bik story) or contradict hard evidence (the Cologne incident). It’s one thing to make claims about innocuous events (my “Dre has/doesn’t have a dog” analogy), but it’s something entirely different to make claims that shape what people think about the nature of the history of a style, the character of people involved, and the nature of martial arts transmission. If we are to accept William Cheung’s claims then we are to believe that Leung Jan and Yip Man are confidence tricksters and Chan Wah Shun a sociopathic bully. If one wants to claim these, one should have hard evidence or EXPECT push back. I implore one to think about how one would feel if they weren’t indoctrinated in said claims and then heard someone else claim a similar story. Do you believe all claims that come from martial art teachers, gurus, or other “authorities”? If his claims are in fact false, then William Cheung is being pernicious to the memory of many. If they are true, then we would expect more evidence available in mainland China. As I believe most objective historians would say, even if the story is true, on balance of evidence, we have nothing to substantiate it.
7. Is this video about the effectiveness of Cheung's Traditional Wing Chun?
No, nothing in this video is about the efficacy of his style. I'm of the opinion that if he simply admitted that it was his creation based on his own experience, most wouldn't take issue. It's the imposition of his historical claims on others that is the issue. William Cheung’s historical claims have nothing to do with him as a fighter, his discipleship under Yip Man, or friendship with Bruce Lee.
All I can say is WOW!
Bloody Hell Mr KFG my beard grew an inch whilst reading that novel lol.
People assuming things on youtube surely not lol!
I had to write a novel because a majority of the “arguments” in the comments had zero to do with what I discussed.
@@TheKungFuGenius people don't bloody listen.Or they hear what they want to hear!
After an hour, when Alex talks about the sin of affecting others through false teaching, I had a heart flutter :( I once used videos of William Cheung to further my lessons (for a man in my position, it's RUclips that helped me start) on Wing Chun and then a fight, unprovoked, happened -- I flopped, it almost killed me :( I learnt that it is a system based on athletics and sports. I've since then realized that that system was not for a thin short man like me. So from that I learnt to search more thoroughly to avoid false teachers and through experiments and asking questions (physically). I thank people like you, Adam Chan, Jesse Glover and Steve Smith for opening your hearts and caring enough for weaklings. Salute
My sifu trained under Jim Fung and later William Cheung. He never cared which story was true only if he was learning something valuable. Amazing that people still argue about it to this day.
I trained at Jim Fungs kwoon for a while, sadly he passed shortly after I started so my meetings with him were brief. I do still have a signed copy of one of his books.
Nothing in this video was about his actual style, it’s about the veracity of his claims. I made it extremely clear that claims asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence and I did this while praising Cheung as a fighter.
@@TheKungFuGenius absolutely hearing you and I enjoyed the podcast 🍻
@@TheKungFuGenius You literally said; 'The ways he knows is not as good as his real way.'
@amywu1368 “Amy Wu”, sir you need to read my pinned comment… slowly, perhaps with a dictionary.
SMALL FLUB IN EPISODE: I said Unique Publications is owned by Black Belt Magazine - I should have said Inside Kung Fu (I don't know how or why I made THAT mistake). All references to Black Belt Magazine should be swapped to Inside Kung Fu Magazine. Sorry for the mistake! Please read the episode description for any updates or notes.
Come with me to Hong Kong in 2024! See all the Bruce Lee, Wing Chun, and Movie Stuff with the KFG as your guide! Info here: www.citywingtsun.com/ultimate-hong-kong-kung-fu-tour
I will be there. Really looking forward to it.
Yes Black Belt was Rainbow Publications and Unique was IKF as you corrected
I love that all the recent podcasts are shot in front of Sifu Alex's bookshelf. I can swipe so many titles that I want to read in the future. Thank you KFG! 😁
He reminds me so much of my young adult journey so much !; I had one hell of a Martial Arts library at one time and I love the fact that you love to read like I do Sifu Alex !! That's why your knowledge and eloquence in your pod cast shines through with a sense of humor to boot !!
Much appreciated!
I'm digging the Milli Vanilli lip sync intro. LOL
Late but still: Yes that's all true so far as I know. William really lost it in the late 70s and early 80s. Emin said in the mid 90s something like: "If I hadnt done it, someone else would have done it." And there was a rumour in the JKD scene that one of Inosanto's students, I think it was Larry Hartsell, had thoughts to take on William, after William called Guru Inosanto "a billy dancer and not a fighter" or something like that. But that was all speculative, I have no credible source.
Thx for sharing. Very interesting. Ready for Part 2 😊
IP Chun was said to me personally. He couldn’t understand why William Chung didn’t claim it as his own work. He put a lot of effort into it. That said he pointed out the shortcomings of his system.
I was friends with a journalist at the time and I had a copy of the infamous interview on tape. It’s comical😂.
Having trained with Ip Chun since the mid 80s it’s fluid in its purest form unlike the BS normally taught.
The biggest problem stems from the fact the HK culture like to gossip and run each other down instead of training hard and just getting on with it.
Having started my journey in the Cheung style of Wing Chun, I quickly became aware of the pervasive drama and confirmation bias within the style, a common theme across various Wing Chun practices. Recognizing this, I made a conscious decision to distance myself from the political intricacies surrounding Wing Chun's histories. Much like religious beliefs, without tangible evidence, it all remains mere assertions, and those asserting must shoulder the burden of proof.
My sole focus has always been on honing my skills as a practitioner of Kung Fu, devoid of any entanglement in politics. This video recounting William Cheung's Wing Chun journey is likely to stir controversy, yet it's essential for viewers to acknowledge that their indignation stems from information passed down verbally, lacking substantiated evidence. Accepting this fundamental truth may temper their ire.
You hit the nail on the head - very insightful. A clear result of these past hostilities was a lack of focus on the art, and more importantly the practitioner.
Pretty nice the Lam Sai Wing - doing Hung Gar Kuen - poster on the right...:)
This was awesome!... I studied william cheung style for about 8 years and then left it... this episode was great! really appreciated all the information provided during the breakdown. We'll done.
Glad you enjoyed it!
I think it was Wong Shun Leung who said in an interview "you really think my master taught a 14 year old boy he didn't even like some secret style and everybody else rubbish".
I think that says enough.
Yes, I think one of the many problems with WC’s story is that he either knowingly or unknowingly saddled his own teacher with a reputation of being a confidence trickster who conned 99.9% of his students.
You insulted my master! Now I must challenge you!
The article back in the 80s in Inside Kung or whichever magazine it was, made me going crazy to learn William Cheung's wing chun. But when I actually ended up taking wing chun a year or so later I found out the shifting and angles William Cheung claimed only were taught to him in private, were actually taught openly from the get go in wing chun and not secret at all😢
Just kidding. Never studied with him. Don't know him.
But I remember Chan Tai San's (not Wing Chun) student on the kung fu forums in the early 2000s saying how common it was for Sifus to teach out 4 or 5 different versions of the material they taught depending on how important they were. He really painted a picture of Sifus holding back crucial portions of styles. I remember him saying people that mattered already knew, so if you didn't know, you weren't going to warrant being taught the real stuff. But anyway, that isn't Wing Chun and has no import on this episode. But it still made me think of it.
...And the Shaolin Temple, don't forget that.
@@Andy-ud1gd no, no. I can't fight the whole Shaolin temple.
This is RUclips! Everything you say must be serious and true! The fight is on 😂
@@bieddruhuggyfalsaperla5447monks assemble! Try my tiger style
Michael Keaton's Batman was unique because he played the character like he really didn't like his Rogues gallery and really wanted to whup em because they were villains.
The Masters have special classes for advanced students that aren't widely taught for very good reasons.
This still doesn’t substantiate any specific claims
We need to have a WCFC promotion.
I live only some kms away from GM W.Cheung house, but I'm from GM Duncan Leung lineage and I have many Kung Fu master friends from GM W.Cheung lineage. Honestly I think there is a lot of hatred and jokes towards GM W.Cheung lineage but I must admit W.Cheung lineage Kung Fu is amazing. His students have Schools all around Australia and his older son used to compete in kickboxing and is a very good fighter. No surprise his son's WC is also great specially his older son Sifu Andrew Cheung.
This episode wasn’t about Sifu Cheung as a fighter, the merits of his style of his achievements. It was solely about his claims. There wasn’t any hate here.
His son by all accounts is a great martial artist and athlete.
But the claims have issues. End of story.
Do you believe he is the only one to have learned the whole system from Yip Man
and he was the one who taught the art to
Bruce Lee after he moved to America ?
I have meet GM W.Cheung and know several of his top Disciples,but I don't believe he was Bruce Lee's Sifu , tutor in the early day maybe but not his teacher.
I do have respect for him as a GM but not of the whole system BS.
It’s curious that any push back to William Cheung’s claims get answered by what a great fighter he was, his past success, his son, etc. None of that is an answer to his problematic claims which have stigmatized the rest of the Wing Chun world.
They have to move the conversation to the defensible (his past successes) and away from the indefensible (his pernicious claims).
this episode is gonna be lit, i can already tell
At least you watched the Oscars when Godzilla won. That's the only reason I tuned in
Thanks!
Wow thank you!
Good episode. Promotes thinking.
Good break down 👍🎯
"a good big un will beat a good lil' in"
Is the boxing quote.
I think that’s why it’s getting some peoples panties in a twist. They would accept the most far-fetched claims from their man, but are extremely skeptical when this type of thing comes from someone else.
That intro when Dre turns into Sir Andrew.
Dre sounds uncharacteristically eloquent
Really good episode. I can't believe it took Dre so long to figure out the whole first son, second son bit;maybe, fe couldn't hear due to that table extension. 😜😜😜🤣🤣🤣
It’s a really long table - the video makes it look like we are close haha
Yes strait off the red boat😂
on a serious note just stumbled on your podcast and it reminded me of when I was researching gung fu and came across Sifu Sergios research on wing Chung just thought you might be interested in his content/research
Thanks for finding us! I'm going to introduce you to a phrase we use in NYC - "well known noisemaker". When it comes to historical methodology, the first rule is to avoid confirmation bias. When a "researcher" is also simultaneously a "seller" of their "findings", they would be disqualified in academia immediately. As there is no real academia regarding the flaming trash pile that counts as "Chinese martial arts research", we are left to police it ourselves and unfortunately most Kung Fu practitioners cannot discern legitimate research from things "said passionately with conviction on a well-produced video on RUclips". I highly suggest the Chinese Martial Arts history book by Peter Lorge, an actual critical guide to Chinese martial arts history. Everyone else is a salesman.
Thanks again for finding us.
I apreciate your words & time & energy to reply to me & I will definitely look up Peter Lorge.
I wasnt saying what sifu Sergio said is the law its just he seemed very knowledgeable in what he was talking about after I looked into all his research,I know he has a book so there can be biases but he genuinely seems to care about martial arts and hes pretty good at it too,he dosnt seem like a blagger to sell some books.
I alway take multiple sources for the same subject to get a good view & make my mind up on something.
happy to hear!
My brothers I believe the the Ip Man movie called “ Ip Man Reborn “ tells the story about the the modify version of wing Chun. Appreciate your work guys.
If you’re looking at movies as historical reference, then history teachers should just show their students the movie 300 rather than actually teaching them about what happened at the battle of Thermopylae. We can also say that Yip Man left Hong Kong because of the Japanese and not because he was a member of the KMT party who was fleeing the communists because that’s what the China-backed Ip Man movie story said.
As I referenced in this video, the supposed Leung Bik character did give a young Yip Man refinements, but even Yip Man did not claim in his first NMH interview that this was akin to an entirely different style. I have seen that movie in which they pretend that somehow high kicks and spinning kicks makes sense in all out combat. I would highly advise you to not take historical notes from films.
Thanks for commenting!
Yes I agree with you only wanted to ref another movie that made mention of that story of Bic teaching a different type of WC and thanks for take the time to point those things out appreciate your concern in pointing us your listeners in the right direction
Hi,
Der Typ mit der Kamera war Thomas Roggenkamp. :D Er hat mir die Geschichte damals, wo die Geschichte noch aktueller war, erzählt.
The guy with the camera was Thomas Roggenkamp. :D He told me the story back in the early 90s, when the story was even more "current".
Gruß
Alef
Awesome!
Suspense!
William Cheung, the “Traditional” Wing Chun Grandmaster that Ip Man himself favored over his sons, assistant instructors and top students to learn a special form of Wing Chun that nobody in the world ever learned or saw before. 😂
I agree but it’s unlikely that his sons learned from Ip Man either.
That is he.
Or everywhere in world is called someone like that a Scharlatan.
But he have pictures with both, Ip man and Bruce Lee, to live a live worth of remembering.
No one said William didn’t learn from Yip Man, it’s a weird trope that has been popping up in the comments which is the exact opposite of anything I said in this video.
And while no one disputes that William knew Bruce Lee personally, his photo with Bruce Lee is fabricated.
Absolutely True !!! You are correct Sir !! Once again shine the light Sifu Alex ! Many are ignorant of truth
@@TheKungFuGenius And yet William Cheung introduced Bruce Lee to Yip Man (and also Wong Shun Leung), so who cares if he faked a picture if the substance was real? Say what you want about William, but he was a kick ass fighter, unlike Leung Ting who grew up in a subsequent generation and possibly lied about being Yip Man's disciple. It's rumoured Yip Man never took on Leung Ting as a student, ever! People like Leung Ting were just living off the reputation of the fighting generation which went before.
I heard that William chueng also was taught red boat wingchun by some triad and the guy made him promise not to reveal his source more secrets
This is the “Hung Fa Yi- VTmuseum” mythos
it's convenient how that works out.
@@TheKungFuGenius It's very convenient for you to simply dismiss HFY as repurposed TWC. Benny Meng believes it not to be the case and that WC was taught a system of HFY, you simply dismiss it, why? Your own filters and bias?
@adamwoodman4477 no it’s my 27 trips to Hong Kong and deep discussions with those with ties to BM and his crew. The fact that teacher of the current HFY patriarch is in fact a drawn sketch of someone is a little dodgy but nothing in their history really pans out.
And what most people not studied in the historical method don’t seem to understand is that again it’s not my burden to prove that this one random style that happens to look very similar to another style in question is not real. The people making the claim are the ones with the burden not the other way around. We start from the negative hypothesis that we only give credit to things that have been substantiated, and even then nothing is above scrutiny. It’s not the other way around, that’s the amateur move.
And if you get out of your own bubble every once in a while, you will see how controversial that lineage was, and very summarily dismissed by people with far more knowledge than myself.
I studied TWC, I visited HFY hq and saw the Gm demonstrate techniques and give a lecture on the history. You’ve spoken to people…and discredit something due to a sketch and then make an ad hominem attack about me being in a bubble without even knowing me.
Maybe it cannot be historically proven to your benchmark, many things in history cannot, but neither can it be dismissed based on hearsay and a sketch lol.
I’ve read the HFY book and the history is more different and more detailed than that of TWC and the concepts somewhat different. Your claim that it’s repurposed TWC doesn’t really even make sense because what’s the motive? The HFY system hardly seems commercialized, very limited branches and you can’t even find videos online of all the forms…
I trained with him a handful of times in the early to mid eighties. His BS style and story aside for a 40 odd year old bloke at the time he was extremely fast and athletic. He had natural movement and athleticism.
Ip Chun at that time was early 60s. I used to look after him when he visited. His speed of hand was and still is something else. Hard to comprehend. Skill is a factor but genetics play a role.
William Cheung and Ling Ting will always have beef with each other. You can tell they have issues, when the students leave both organizations.
Ling Ting? That name rings a bell...
I think you missed the part where I said he doesn’t care anymore.
@NH1973 LOL
Awesome! Great stuff! Many thanks :)
My pleasure!
This episode gave me an idea to suggest for a future topic. Perhaps you could do an episode explaining historical research and the scientific method. Certain concepts like the burden of proof, logical fallacies and debate tactics are all interesting. I know you've mentioned these in the past, but perhaps a dedicated "lesson" on the subject would be of interest. Kind of like the Cantonese language episode.
Thanks for the support!!! 🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻
I’m quickly realizing that this topic is lost on many Wing Chun people. They think my skepticism of claims is a claim and don’t realize what the burden of proof means. They want specific claims protected and require a bizarre amount of evidence for refutations beyond the zero evidence they needed to accept the claim to begin with.
The Burden of Proof is a very interesting concept in its own right. Many people don't appreciate how much they rely on it. Imagine being accused of a crime because someone made a claim, and being presumed guilty until you can prove yourself innocent!
@NH1973 that is pretty much how every defense of a historical claim goes in Chinese martial arts. Well prove to me that he didn’t secretly learn something when no one was around? Umm what?
@@TheKungFuGeniusI think our education system really fails a lot of people on a lot of things, including basic logic and media literacy. Like it’s kind of hard to prove a negative, everyone should understand why and why that means that you need positive evidence of claims.
Howdy stranger! Miss you guys!
I have trained under Leung ting lineage and moy yat wing chun they were similar. William Cheung wing chun is very different from everyone else.
Your comment about, if William Cheung had learned Leung Bik's Wing Chun version from Yip Man. There would be guys in Gulao doing something similar to William Cheung, which we know there isn't .
This logic also applies to Yip Man learning from Leung Bik. If Yip Man ever learned from Leung Bik. Leung Jan's version that he gave to the students in his hometown, where he moved to after his time in Fatshan. Elements from that, which makes it special/different, would also be seen in HK Wing Chun. But it isn't.
Having trained in Pin San 12 San Sik, yes HK and Pin San have things in common. But I would also say that there most definitely are differences, in certain principles between the two versions. So based on my own understanding of Pin San/HKWC. It is very clear to me that Yip Man never met a guy named Leung Bik.
@TheKungFuGenius
You did a great job on staying neutral, as always. 👍🙏
Thanks for that! Like I said, I'm agnostic about Leung Bik, he may be a euphemism for other sources, but even that charge doesn't prove any specific outside source. YKS and SLWC cultists are quick to jump on that "other source" being them, but this is a fallacious "argument from ignorance" ("we don't believe Leung Bik existed, therefore Yip Man must have learned from [insert "our guy/lineage/narrative"]"). Their evidence is nothing more than "our guy said so", a type of evidence they don't seem to accept when someone else says something they don't agree with. Everyone is a logician in regards to someone else's claims, but not their own.
It's interesting to note that even Yip Man did not mention Leung Bik in his handwritten history of Wing Chun.
As far as the difference between PSWC and HKWC, I've also learned the basic elements from my good friend Sifu Jim Roselando. I would say the two arts are closer to each other than TWC is to "orthodox" HKWC/WT/VT. Given the history of the modifications of PSWC as taught to Wong Wah Saam, it's also clear (to me at least) that this art may not reflect what Leung Jan taught in his earlier days. Of course without a time machine, it's all speculation. It's possible that PSWC has some market similarities to my lineage of WT than to some of the other students of Yip Man, but that also could be my own bias and filter speaking.
Thanks for commenting!
@@TheKungFuGenius
Well I would say that all of Pin San is in the HK version. People just don't understand how to unlock the knowledge. One thing though, doing HK Siu Nim Tau will totally wreck your Pin San. It's literally two steps backwards.
"Nobody messes with Adam We!!"
I miss that dude
@32:16 If I remember correctly, that wasn’t hard for you because at that time you already had learned the invisibility technique 💯🔥
No, she spotted him in the tree and greeted him, without even needing to look up
@@NH1973 “Hi, Alex!”
Alex Richter - not a ninja genius
@@TheKungFuGenius "He is Invisible. Unseeable. Undetectable "
The most charitable thing you could say about Cheung is that he has a piss poor memory.
Gets the story of Yim Wing Chun wrong. Gets the story of Chan Wah Shun wrong. Gets all the wing chun forms wrong.
WOW!!! The plot thickens.
Every day, and in every way.
I wonder how many peeple got their cockles into a bind just reading the title
Everyone has something to offer met and trained with him in 1990 in England
Absolutely, this is not a swipe at Sifu Cheung as a martial artist. I tried to keep it solely in the realm of his claims vs. what we can know. Once the video premieres, please let me know how badly I failed at being neutral ;)
@@TheKungFuGenius okay I will
@@TheKungFuGenius I thought you were neutral excellent podcast
Wang kiu once said it was odd what willliam cheung was doing cause he learned the same stuff as everybody else. Regardless, he does have a picture of him and yip man with him standing on the masters right hand side, meaning he completed the system. Anyways, one needs to keep in mind that it is actually Chinese tradition to embellish storys....
No one ever claimed that William didn’t learn from Yip Man. Said no such thing in this video. And I think it’s a bit of an embellishment to call what he did and embellishment, you should listen to the part about how I discussed pernicious claims versus innocuous embellishments.
Also having a photo side by side does not mean one “completed the system” (Bruce Lee has the same photo and famously didn’t complete the system). A side-by-side photo just means that you have been accepted as that person‘s student, but says nothing whether you have completed it. That’s an interesting narrative people add on top to use pre-existing evidence as evidence of something more.
You should read my pinned comment at the top.
Really, I was under the assumption that one side is an accepted disciple, and the other side is "out the door" meaning he completed the system
Anyways it is even said that Yip Man himself fabricated the story about leung Bik in the fifties to atract students, meaning William Cheung basically did the same as his master.
If you want my opinion on the whole thing I think it was Wong Shun Leung who said in an interview "you really think my master taught a 14 year old boy he didn't even like some secret style and everybody else rubbish".
I think that says enough
An example of how William Cheung operated: He did a collab with Dan Inosanto, FMA and the double knives. Soon after Cheung's 'version' contained a 'Sinawali' section. Curious.
Interesting!
A lot of people steal from Dan and add it to their system
@@TheKungFuGeniuswhen cheung met inosanto his material changed after spending time with guro dan it was more jun fan
The mindfuck of hearing Mikey's voice from Dre's mouth 😅
Another great episode. Too bad more people didn't approach "history" claims like this in the old WC forums, kungfu online, 😂 Back in thr early 00's it felt like every post devolved into name calling and crapping on a lineage or someone's sifu. I appreciate the approach you take in these discussions. Tap Man Out
Glad you enjoyed it
Thanks for reminding me of how awful those old forums were! The one advantage it gave me is that I got to see the “who’s who”, and what they were really like before meeting many of them.
@@TheKungFuGenius 😅they were so toxic at times over the dumbest crap. I myself got caught up in them on several occasions before realizing how foolish it was. Much more enjoyable to sit back and watch the fireworks than be in it.
My experience with Cheung Sifu's Wing Chun is nil, save for a few friendships I have with his students and grandstudents - all of whom are very nice, top shelf martial artist. However, as someone who has seen this kind of drama in other arts (notably a Japanese art I practice), believe me when I say that no good comes from marrying yourself to a seemingly self serving history. It's like me as a Marine Veteran claiming I actually deserved a Purple Heart for being wounded yet I've never served in combat.
I have heard Cheung Sifu's words on the subject as well as Yip Chun's and many others. Sadly, the only people who can definitively comment are dead, so I'll stick with Richter Sifu's description of events and his carefully stated opinion. Whatever the source of Cheung Sifu's Gung Fu, the folks I've encountered are skilled and effective so I'm not worried about where it came from. I just choose to follow a different path.
And according to Hendrik none of us do wing chun
And from what I’ve heard if you ask Hendrik to have a polite conversation about it face-to-face, he’ll just call the cops on you.
@@TheKungFuGenius I see a video of his pop up and I think I might watch this one mabey there is something I can use in it and every time i just get a weird depressed sad feeling
I asked Hendrik some years ago to show me the proof of one of his claims. Because in his video, he listed some of his claims as evidence. He immediately became defensive and very rude, then proceeded to erase his post and removed himself from the Facebook group. He was actually lying about the Chinese language and his evidence and I called him out on it. Most of what he pass on as historical facts, he has made up himself and he's spreading false information about Wing Chun in order to be seen as some knowledgeable historian. IMO what he does is worse that William Cheung claims. Because WC really doesn't have any effect on the Wing Chun community outside his own school.
Also, there's not much to indicate that Cho family martial arts has much to do with Wing Chun in an form. I think Hendrik is the proof the credulity is there one simply references something in Chinese. He was friends with me on FB for one week until he found out I was friends with someone who disagreed with him and then he blocked me. L O L
@@TheKungFuGenius I had a hard time convincing him alot of his momentum technology exists outside if his specific lineage, I come from a bit of a hybrid system, my Sifu studied under Austin Goh and in later years studied under Rob Stevens who is a European representative of Jim Roselandos Pin Sun line so it is like a traditional Fatsaan style powered by Pin Sun body mechanics and flavoured by the side body style, alot of the "body powers" are uber similar to the momentum technology that Hendrik goes on about, he just kinda got very adversarial and dismissed my input totally. I was kinda bummed out, at the time I really wanted to discuss and enthuse a bit about powering different things but to no avail. Sad really, it's our differences that make Wing Chun vibrant, example would be when I watch your videos and tutorials I without fail find things I want to digest and try, ways of interpreting concept or how the difference in a certain set are applied and I get inspired all over again.
You totally speak the truth here, you are correct when you say that William Cheung's Wing Chun is Fabricated by him and does not exist anywhere in the different lineages of Wing Chun. There are many things that are not exactly the truth, What about Ip Man's background in learning from Yuen Kay San's Wing Chun since Yip Man stayed at Yuen Kay San's house . And what did Ip Man learn while at Dai Dak Lan Practicing with many Weng Chun sifu's ? If the walls could talk ? Ip man modified what he learned from Yuen Kay San, all these truths have come out after all this time. There is so much information here, William Chueng totally fabricated his Wing Chun, Ip Man's sifu's were not afraid of him, they had fear of who William Chueng was associated with in Hong Kong (mob ties) , why did Willam Chueng leave Hong Kong ? Ask yourself ? Remember Ip man did not decide that he was gonna teach Wing Chun , this came from having to survive in Hong Kong and earn a living . Ip man happened to be in the right place at the right time with regard to his growth .
Still waiting on any evidence about the DDL connection besides people saying it 30 years after Yip Man died. How does it make any sense that a 60+ year old man who is trying to establish his own brand of martial arts style is then also taking lessons from a competitor on the other side of town? And all this after Lok Yiu punched one of the most famous Weng Chun masters in the mouth after he insulted our lineage.
Please provide more evidence other than “Sergio said” or “some guy said”. Please point to one contemporary piece of evidence. If none exist, then you must seriously curb your claims because you only believe it because you liked the person who said it.
Sir may I ask when did Yipman divulge the existence of Leung Bik and his association with him? Was it thru the Magazine Interviews in front of Leung Ting? Or did mention him to his earlier students?
Mind blowing episode... had me at the edge of my seat ... like the drug letters.. :)
One time we know for sure was the first New Martial Hero interview. Outside of that we have to rely on the accounts of his students.
@@TheKungFuGenius damn. I completely forgot to ask this question to the man himself ... i just came from hongkong family outing and i finally met him. Had my book signed. :) Leung Bik was the 2nd burning question in my mind for the longest time.. which I completely forgot to ask. :(
Who did you meet?
@@TheKungFuGenius if it was only that one time. Then that would mean WC was copying LT's narrative and turning it sideways to fit his own narrative?
It’s difficult to tell, but Leung Ting was not directly involved in the first interview which was done by Mok Pui On.
Does anyone know if William Cheung actually had the WR for most full punches in 1 minute?
Think he did actually
@@Danny-el7ok As much of a fanboy as I am, I do think William Cheung might have been one of the few people that were faster than Bruce. Bruce mentioned there were others faster than him. Rare, but I think WC was one of the few who qualified. Not saying he was a great fighter.
I don’t understand how a world record can stand when it’s (first off) not in the Guinness Book of World Records, and secondly, there doesn’t seem to have been a previous record, nor anyone challenging it since. We had an electronic chain punch counter at the castle where I trained in Germany, and I regularly saw some of my seniors do faster than eight punches a second. The problem is once you go past a certain number of punches per second the power starts to drop significantly, because the speed of the retraction has to be factored in simply to get the other punch in. Beyond seven punches a second, you are too focused on the retraction to get the next punch in for the actual punch to have the same heft as a properly launched one. This is not my opinion, we had an electronic punch trainer that could track the number of punches and the power of the punches.
Pure raw speed in the number of punches one can do in a second is antithetical to one of the most important ideas in the art which is “da sau jik siu sau” (the hitting hand is also the defending hand). If you are constantly retracting your hand for the sake of doing another fast punch, there’s nothing to keep your opponents arm pinned, and no reason why they can’t simply hit you back. Unless your opponent is just waiting there with hands-down, letting you chain punch them in the face as many times as you can a second, the number of chain punches you can do in a second is not actually the flex you think it is.
When I was a teenager, I was super focused on how many chain punches could be done in a second. After over 20 years of teaching, this is not even remotely an important skill when it comes to stopping someone who is giving you serious pressure.
@@TheKungFuGenius Many of the WRs related to martial arts ironically have nothing to do with protecting yourself or actual fighting. I also looked for the WR of full length punches in one minute. Only the recent video of Pavel Trusov shows up. There's also the clip of someone doing the WR of punches via chain punches. Definitely not much power and definitely not much extension. I dont believe it to be a flex, but I do find it intriguing. I was also curious if there's a way to check if William had faster punches than Bruce.
@questions9856 little known fact, I have the world record for whispering the loudest.
Ninja? Ninja? I have your girlfriend 😂😂
Please do a podcast about probably the leader of wing chun in early 1900 and mostly forgotten ng chun so
There’s remarkably little on this subject, unfortunately
Check out sifu Sergio he knows alot about the history & lineages of Wing Chun from way back also how it developed its interesting & check out real shaolin history for how & when the temples burnt down.
You must be new around here.
Have you ever tried to learn traditional Wing Chun ?
yes when i was a teenager.
I studied Williams brothers lineage David Cheung under Sifu Gary Baneki So there was difference in their lineages swell as David learned from Wong shun leng after going on a roots of wing Chun toor in china I defiantly say there is huge difference between Williams style kung fu and the others I have seen articles saying it was from Garet Gee lineage hung fa ye I dunno I don't buy the story about yip man because William has been known too lie question is where did he learn it r did he come up with it himself?
It’s more likely Garret repurposed TWC and sold it as being the same thing.
I feel so much better now I thought I was the only ninja hiding from teenage girl bikers 😅
Thank you, my ninja brother
Thank you KFG I enjoy your sharing of knowledge
I am real true Ninja. I can climb up Empire State building with my bear claw gloves. I'm very legit.
It’s the most efficient way to get to the top
@@TheFiestyhick Was King Kong your Sifu?😂
I read an article a while back about William Cheng, it said the style of Wing Chun that he learnt is not authentic.
That article was facts 😂
Cool story bro. Hey, I read this article a while back, and it said his version is the best.
I’m having a déjà vu. Is this an old podcast ?
at least six years old judging by my facial hair.
Wow Mikey you're a great ventriloquist. Ya know, doing the intro through your dummy and such
My only issue is how empty your book library is of good Wushu (Kung Fu) books . LOL
They make books on Kung Fu?
I respect Kung Fu genius, i asked him about the William Cheung and Emin incident and i think out of respect he chose to decline anwering the question.....eventually i got my answer though hahah
Perhaps ip man told him what he wanted to hear. Cheung was probably bugging him with his ego, so he fed into it with a BS story to satisfy him.
Perhaps ip man had a sense of humor :-)
One time my father in law mentioned to my wife that they were related to geronimo, as he had a picture of him in his living room. For almost 20 years my wife was going around with the belief that she was related to geronimo. When brought up at dinner one time, her father asked where she heard that, and admitted that he made it up.
This is a very insightful comment. A number of similar theories have been postulated by various practitioners in an attempt to give WC the benefit of the doubt. The hammer blows of research, inconsistencies in his historical account, and common sense have not been kind to his claims, yet he stubbornly persists - either due to ego, or perhaps, because something is making him believe so vehemently.
During the time WC learned from the old man, the old man was in the throes of a very serious opium habit. It has been theorized by some that perhaps an opium-addled YM taught the teenager some crazy stuff while he was whacked out of his mind. WC’s inability to let this theory go or admit it was self created could be due to the old man having legitimately taught him something different, albeit due to a drug induced bit of craziness.
I don’t subscribe to this theory, but it does go to the fact that humans are very ingenious when it comes to explaining things away and making things fit. It also goes to the fact that Even opponents of WC still try to give him some benefit of the doubt whereas WC has done nothing but mostly stigmatize those with the dissenting opinions.
Humans are often very proud of their narratives and will prop them up anyway, they can to score points to seem right or justified.
@@TheKungFuGenius great episode... cant wait for part 2 🙂
Great talk, Fascinating! as Spock would say.
Here's an interview with Emin and the video of the "cologne incident"
There is nothing more "demonstrative".
ruclips.net/video/bhBnq8v_z00/видео.htmlsi=UOWL7_19M5yZCCQ2
It's as if it were a remake of the Wong Jack Man vs Bruce Lee fight, except that William Cheung is not Bruce Lee, the latter, although he criticized the method, was always respectful of discipline, sifu and above all he was sure of his art even in its infancy. Criticism is constructive, insult and disrespect are not. Well, this challenge fight proved it to William Cheung.
Question to The KFG, did you ever met Emin ?
Yes I trained with my Si-Hing Emin many times from 98-2002.
For some reason my replies are getting deleted
RUclips filters comments they they are commercial or offensive. They often get it wrong, so I have to approve them later. There are no comments from you in the approval box however.
Side note, a notable percentage of my own replies on my own channel don’t go through on the app for some reason. To say YT is buggy is an understatement.
FYI there is one video (very grainy) of GM Garrett Gee doing a sword demo:
ruclips.net/video/8aS3MndtHyQ/видео.htmlsi=JP2qb3OscYRxh1om
Watch out, you may be attacked by Iron Man! :)
He didn’t survive Endgame
@@TheKungFuGenius Gee whizz brother, TAKE IT EASY!
Very good balanced episode
Im disappointed you didn't mention "The blind side".😊
Yes the blind side tactic which everyone who learned the dummy has learned
Thanks for your compliment!
In Melbourne William had the Kung Fu market . My sifu Fung knew him from IPs school. Both trained under Chu Shong Tin. William very briefly before moving to Australia. His claims are just claims 😂
Oh shhhh! Noice!!😛✊wooow.. that was BANNANAS. 😂the idea that WILLIAM CHEUNG decided to float a big fat turd of a lie, only to be foiled by a simple, common place, truth teller was mad funny. Because you know it happened exactly that way too. He fought, and tried, and sought to confuse, only to have probably the only thing I can think of to screw his story, pop up leisurely.” 😂❤😛🤟💯
Oh dear there could be so much hot nonsense contained within.That it could fill the grand canyon and Cheddar gorge!!
I try my best to discuss it in a neutral manner... let me know how much I failed once you see it lol.
Maybe William didn't want the others to know that he was living with Ip Man. So he would leave with the others and double back around.
I get it, I used to do that too when I was a teenager. After I said goodbye to my friends I would totally double back around and meet my totally hot and totally older girlfriend who was also totally a model. As a teenager this was a very easy secret for me to keep.
@FOOD4JWS
It was Chu Shong Tin's story he took and made his own. It was CST that lived 5 years with Yip Man. They shared a room so small, that 2 sleeping mats right next to each other would take up all the space.
@@TheKungFuGenius was that the one who lived in Canada?
Yeah, but she would like come to visit sometimes
psych
aler6t
Why do you even care. About what somebody else does
Why do you comment on a video that you clearly haven’t watched?
You should read my pinned comment, especially the last few points carefully. Consult a dictionary for the big words.
Alex makes some throught provoking arguments in the podcast but unfortunately its quite biased and reminds me of CNN style reporting. Essentially what Alex has done here is what he's accusing WC of doing. He has falsely stated there are no other Wing Chun linages with resemblance to TWC, despite knowing that the Hung Fa Yi linage does bare many similarities. Benny Meng, Ving Tsun Museum curator who has studied HFY and hosted William Cheung seminars has stated he believes TWC has links to HFY. Yet Alex who I don't believe has studied or trained either simply claims in comments that HYF is repurposed TWC, yet provides no evidence to his claim apart from hearsay (deep discussions) despite saying that the burden of proof is on the one making claim. Based on this he's chosen to not even mention the similarities of this linage with TWC and instead mislead his listeners by omission. Obviously another similar linage would only strengthen WC's claim on some level, so its clear why due to personal filters, bias and motivation he's omitted it.
It's disrespectful to your TWC friends and perhaps sinister by your own definition. It also disrespectful to those that practice HFY and thats part of 'the problem' he describes with WC's claims. He says he doesn't give the WC topic much thought but there was obviously a choice to omit this info. Its a complete double standard and hypocrisy. Even if Alex believes HFY is a TWC copy he should mention it in the video, allowing people to research and make up their own mind.
I believe this whole topic highlights in general some of the real issues here. One of personal identification (ego attachment) to a particular style and time spent studying it and secondly and more impactful on ones behaviour the influence and motive of business success on the claims people make, what they say, and in Alex's case what they don't say...and lets remember this podcast is obviously a marketing tool.
Read the pinned comment, remove your feelings.
Your pinned comments make to no reference to the observations I've made. I felt to call out what I see as a double standard and biased discussion, I've done that now.
Perhaps in part 2 you can share about why you chose to omit HFY from the discussion and share the evidence you have for writing it off as a TWC copy. You've made a claim about HFY, a system that has a detailed history, theory and concepts, if you have debunked it so easily please share your findings. As you say 'if you want to make these claims then have hard evidence or expect pushback....
This video is about the veracity of specific claims not having evidence. You're missing the point on the burden of proof - I'm not the one with the claim. Your messaging is boring, go make a video and debunk mine please. Do an anti-CNN style report, perhaps on Bigly men with big claims that are persecuted by people who see the man behind the curtain.
Ultimately it comes down to you and your integrity and why you chose to purposefully omit something and therefore mislead listeners. The rest of the video I have no issue with. I’ve called out what I’ve observed and will leave it at that.
Good luck with the business.
I got a cookie and a pat on the head when you visit NYC.
I'm here to put an end to all this controversy! Wing Chun was invented by my uncle Bobby and my dad beat everyone in a secret underground kumite. Suffer losers.
Makes sense!
The only time i used real wing chun there were bodies everywhere, fighting over a system designed to kill efficiently while fighting over the parts that don't kill is not under my economy of movement guidelines. My time training with william was for only a year before i changed teachers and he mostly kept his brother in charge. Wing chun was never made for commercial use. Your sticky hands can be great but a groin strike and finger thrust to the eyes quickly neutralises anything.
Not sure what this has to do with this video but thanks for letting us know how awesome you are.
@@TheKungFuGenius i hope you enjoyed my humour, although i never mentioned my awesomeness i'm glad you interpreted it that way.