PEX Manifold System - Pros and Cons + Tour
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- Опубликовано: 3 май 2024
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In this video Matt walks you through a manifold system that uses PEX lines for a home run plumbing layout. He also shows you how the water softener integrates as well as reviews the pros and cons of this Viega system.
Gary Klein Article in The Journal of Light Construction
Plumbing Playlist - • Plumbing
/ risingerbuild
For a larger home (or any home really) while the system above is extremely granular (meaning that I can literally turn off cold or hot water at EVERY SINGLE FIXTURE), probably just as useful would be to plumb it like your breaker box, meaning that one "circuit breaker" turns on or off an entire room, such as a bathroom. Probably just as useful as the system above, and eliminates the need for every hot water run to a bathroom needed to evacuate an waiting.
Exactly what I was thinking
We did something similar. Main trunk line to the upstairs feeding a manifold there. Then each of the 4 bathrooms has a supply from that manifold. Recirculating line to that manifold. The master and kids bathrooms are very close to the manifold so hot water is almost instant.
The kitchen also has a recirculating line. A little more complex but I like the ability to shut off to all the rooms from a “central” location. Has come in handy already.
The situation you described here is another typical plumbing layout known as "trunk and branch". The benefits of Truck and Branch is that you use less pipe, however, with a "home-run" system (like in the video) you don't send any extra hot water to a fixture than needed.
Installed this in my renovation in northern maine. The house is an old 1930's Victorian style. I am not a plumber at all so pex was a great option. Did the 36 port vega and couldn't be happier.
He is spot on with the pluses with the use of this. It allowed me to work room by room and slowly bring on services. It also allowed me to do a "loose install" until the house is finished and I can finalize the "design" (it's a but if a rat's nest at the moment by design). The ability to cut a single service is a life saver. I moved the location of my water heater to get it closer to the manifold (faster hot water). And had to add a temp spot for washer and dryer.
Cons after 1 year. Hot water delivery can tak a little bit on faucets, showers arent an issue because you generally turn them on and take a minute to get in. Biggest problem was the town pressure was only 40psi... waaaaay to low. I picked up a grundfos scala2 and cranked it up to 70 to 75 psi (what I'm used to). With the long runs from manifold to faucets the pump does get a workout. I'm sure with a conventional setup it would maintain a bit better, I'm talking only about 5psi flux so first world problems.
My longest runs go about 40 line ft. Again this is an old house so a bit of over the river and through the woods was required. I would suggest if you have the extra $$ get the upanor/weisbro pex A and the the expansion tool. A friend who is doing a new construction uses it and its flexibility is very nice. Pex B is a little more stubborn in tight places.
Overall for a DIY you cant beat the system, a little sharkbite here and some crimps and clamps there and you are happy.
This is a great channel.
I have a home run system very similar to this that I installed. One of the main benefits that we have found is that you do not get the same sudden change in temperature while taking a shower when someone turns on another fixture that you get with other systems. Also, if you are doing the renovation yourself, its very very nice to be able to trial each fixture without turning all of the water off and/or turn off a hot or cold line while working on it.
I have had this very manifold system in my house for over 16 years and LOVE it. I did all the plumbing myself and was very easy to do. It does eliminate the shutoffs at each fixture which in my experience many times need replaced about the time you need to use them so you have to do the whole-house shutoff thing anyway. It was VERY nice to just turn off one 'circuit' and change out a faucet recently when I needed to do that.
"... need replaced about the time you need to use them ..." That resonates with me soooo much - I've had that at two different houses, though not with valves at the fixtures. In one, cpvc gate valves (which I didn't know were a thing) didn't shut off completely because overzealous application of primer/glue had warped them. In the other, the house's main shutoff was a brass gate valve. Apparently someone hadn't opened it quite all the way; motion imparted from running water caused grooves to be worn in the mating surfaces. Once again it looked to be in good condition and I expected it to work. I had to do a bit of digging, but fortunately the street valve actually did function.
I imagine you would still want a water shutoff on things like toilets and sinks because you'll still have water in the lines that will make a mess out of your bathroom and under your sink
@@fishingwithleachesabsolutely no mess. Think about how a water level works. Does not matter which end it is turned off.
When a water leak starts spraying you don't want to take the time to go all the way to your garage/basement/utility room to shut it off. Right at the fixture is fastest for damage control.
Can you put a hot water recirculation on this system?
I put this in my house 8 years ago. The time to fixture was a consideration in my design so for any small fixtures like standard sink faucets, dishwasher, clothes washer, I used the outlet adapter that converts to 3/8" at the mana-bloc. Also, I used 2 - 1/2" colds and 2 - 1/2" hots for the whirlpool tub in conjunction with 3/4" valving so the tub fills very fast. I insulated the pipe from the heater.
that was smart
I feel like after a while , we will find enough information in his video to walk you through how to build a new house from scratch. That was part of the plumbing chapter.
Hello again Matt. I did install one of these on my prior home. I also had an on demand tank installed. The hot water travelled short enough distances that it was minimal loss, or put a water pitcher in the shower to use for plants later. But this in home run setup with an on demand left me continuous hot showers when I needed for guests, or just long enough for my family of two when we were alone. The gain in not heating water all day was more than enough to reduce any cost of water lost in bringing hot water up to the point of use. Also, 1/2" lines going vertical were easier on the pressure variant vs. a wider column of water. No pumps were needed and if you want to add more lines for a shower, add away and have multiple heads running on a second floor. My setup was 36 circuits, no split or shared lines. All stub outs to the cabinet and I tape my exposed tube with duct tape, the metal looking one without logos. It was easy to secure the lines in walls and having zero joints also helped against joint or 90 degree angles causing resistance to pressure. I am a "Handyman" but I do pull permits on my own home and have been appreciated by the electrical or plumbing inspectors. So it can be done by a homeowner who worries about all the work. Great show and thank you for sharing your info with us.
Viega -"VEE-Gah"
Great video, Matt. Really enjoyed your presentation. The Manabloc is an outstanding system, and the wide variety of sizes really allow homeowners of any size the ability to own and enjoy their own system.
I love the manibloc system I put in myself easy had no issues so far in a new construction I have done myself.
I agree, I installed the Manabloc system in my house 14 years ago had no problems and it works great.
Matt there are a few things that one could very well do to improve hot water flow on a large house. Install more water heaters. Many people are switching to tankless under sink for direct on demand hot water.
Manifolds are fine in some applications. They work best if you run your large line to the areas that you need and install a small closet or access panel along with a water heater per bathroom. This means you run cold water main line to master bath and one line to water heater and the rest to fixtures.
My house is going to be a branch design. With 3/4 all thru out and very few of them will be 1/2, most of the half inch is just to make the connection for for very short couple feet runs.
I have a well that delivers 25 GPM at 60psi with a main 3/4 inch line that will at some point be replaced with a 1 inch pex line. I am also going to install commercial 1 inch outdoor faucets along with getting 1 inch garden hose as well.
I have been installing this system in all my new construction in texas for more than 12 years
I have a Pex system in a 2 story 3000 sq’ house. Max HR is @60 ft to the laundry room.
No problems. Normal lag time on the hot water. Manifold in the walk-in attic.
Love it.
I love mine, put it in myself real easy to do.
I've seen this install setup a few times, you can install a recirc to the system anytime. You essentially run your recirc off one of the hot outlets, however, all it's doing is recirculating the feed line. It doesn't really make a huge difference unless your mech room and manifold is farther away.
The ideal manifold install is through Uponor's manifold system. It's sort of a hybrid trunk and branch system. Essentially you install an in wall manifold on your branch line, and your run your trunks through the manifold. I've had my plumbers do it on several builds now, and it cuts down on a lot of fittings in exchange for a lot more 1/2" pipe. This way your 1/2" pipe runs are usually
I’m a professional auto tech over 35 years and this plumbing work is attention to detail and pride, makes me want to gut my house and do THIS!!!😎👍🏼
a very well done job in describing the pro/cons of Pex vs Copper and other types of PVC piping used in every home.
Awesome! We are planning on using a PEX manifold for our radiant heated floors on our house build!
You don't use this kind of block for a heating system, you need a hydronic manifold for heating.
Different animal altogether, and you'll be using PEX type A (if you're smart) for in-floor heating. We were installing Wirsbo PEX radiant systems as early as the mid '80s and it was a steep learning curve. Have it designed by a professional and don't try for miracles (pushing radiant heat through a plywood subfloor covered with hardwood... yeah, it's 'possible'... people do it all the time. Then they complain for a thousand reasons... heat can't keep up... flooring moves abnormally... hot spots at the pipe.... yadda yadda. Radiant floors should be installed in some kind of thermal mass, period... not stapled up under a wooden subfloor. Just my .02.
@@HBSuccessDo you feel that same about warm board?
Matt, one option in Manabloc's system is to go to 3/8" lines for all faucets and lower flow fixtures (depending on code, it could theoretically serve fixtures up to 3.0 gpm). That way, your wait time actually goes down compared to a trunk and branch system. Of course, any large volume fixtures (shower, washing machine, etc) still gets 1/2". I've installed this system in several small multifamily buildings and the occupants love it.
I also did a 3/8" manabloc install (except for a few fixtures - bathtub, washing machine, hose bibs) on a very old house... 3/8" saves water and the manabloc is hugely helpful at balancing out water pressure drops when multiple fixtures are open (city line is 1/2"). I would probably do as you suggested if I were building a new home. One additional thing I would suggest is copper to the kitchen sink... the pex gives my water a "plastic water bottle in the hot sun" taste.
You actually have to run loaded calculations to say whether or not a pipe size will be able to serve the fixture correctly or not in a system. This is typical in plumbing where people don't consider math in terms of flow rates, demand and the total fixture GPM. What happens when you shoot off the hip is sometimes you get lucky and many times you have flow issues where if more than one fixture is run at the same time a noticeable flow rate drop occurs... the more you run simultaneously the worse the flow. In homes 1500sf & up this is typically a big scale problem. Rarely is the initial plumber called back on new construction because unless the owner understands this is a design issue and catches it soon... it usually ends up as a service call. This is a really bad level of service to the customer. Engineering for electrical & plumbing should be running load calculations and designing the system accordingly so that the demand is met for not only each fixture but the whole house. That is the beginning of providing good service.
@@btownb4462 If by pipe size you mean the supply pipe coming into the house, I agree... my house is 90 years old, and they certainly didn't do any real planning or calculation, it probably should've been piped in at 3/4". But on a per fixture level, I'd say if the fixture is flow limited (like most faucets are to 1.6 GPM) or the speed at which it fills is not a concern (toilet bowl, dishwasher) - 1 x 3/8" pex can provide 1.3 GPM, so if there's hot+cold mixing (2 x 1.3) there won't be a problem with 3/8" pex and even with no mixing it's unlikely that .3 GPM difference will be perceivable in most cases. Multi-unit residential, commercial or large houses could be a different ball game though.
@@deftdawg I agree with the design aspect of knowing how much water is being used to determine the supply line size but the plumbing code actually dictates what sized pipe can be used by a fixture. Sinks, water closets, and showers can be installed with 3/8" pipe. Bathtub and washing machine 1/2".
Does the Manablock system replace the need for water stops under the sinks? Otherwise I see no advantage over an insulated trunk line system for hot water. I don't trust my plumbers to rip through a structure with a PEX bundle the size of a fire hose without doing major damage.
I watched all your videos and I have to say thanks because I’ve ran two construction companies one was commercial and the other was historic renovations, and basically I only used what the spec book said to use and I really wish you were around when I was project manager and supervisor for these companies. So thanks buddy
Great video, also great to know how it works on large houses. Wonder if you could add in two or three of those into a larger house and incorporate a recirculating hot water pump in those. Love how neat and clean this all looks.
Which ever plumbing contractor did that job did a nice job and you can tell they definitely care about their work!
That's a crappy system and a bad plumbing layout.
What do you base your comment on?
Unless that manufacturer says otherwise you can't run any pex type directly off a hot water tank because the constant source of heat fatigues the pex. You need 18 inches of separation which means you need a copper pipe and/or stainless lines totaling 18 inches before you can attach pex. 6 inch stainless nipples and 12 inch flexible stainless lines will give you that space without dielectric fittings.
You also need to keep the pex away from the exhaust on gas hot water tanks.
Another thing to avoid is running hot and cold lines close together so they aren't equalizing each other.
I only work with Pex A because it's easier to work with especially with in tight places and you don't need to gauge your fittings. The Milwaukee tool is worth the money.
If the heat from a water heater fatigues it how is it that it doesn't fatigue in radiant heat systems?
Radiant heat isn't 125+ degrees Fahrenheit in the pex lines.
Maybe pex-alu-pex pipe type could be also more reliable solution. Cheers
Pex-alu-pex is an oxygen barrier pex used for radiant heating. It cost more and doesn't flex easily so it isn't suitable for other applications.
Pex just has to be isolated from the intense heating cycle of the hot water tank.
Use Bitchute radiant heat can be upwards of 130-140f in pex lines...
You are so informational for me on things. Please don’t ever stop teaching. Awesome!!👍
We have this system in our single story 3000sf house and it is terrific. The manifold is in the centralized laundry room. It is covered by a hatch cover panel on the wall that easily lifts off for access. It looks like a small raised panel cabinet door.
I installed this system on my house. One benefit you forgot to mention is greatly reduced fluctuations in pressure. So when you are in the shower and someone is flushing the toilet or running the sink, you water pressure isn’t constantly fluctuating. Plus with zero fittings and long bends there is considerably less resistance within the plumbing. When I did mine, from the meter I ran 2 1 inch pex to the utility room, 1 to the cold side manibloc and 1 to the on demand water heater. My house is a very tall 2 story house with 2 showers on the 2nd story. With only 43psi of city water I can run both showers, the dishwasher and cloths washer with almost no noticeable pressure loss at the showers. It’s very handy when running 4 kids through the shower in the evening while cleaning up after supper and doing the laundry.
I have the same system in my house and for the last 8 years have been trying to figure out how to reduce the pressure drop in the shower when someone flushes the toilet or turns on another faucet. I have great pressure at the main through the meter. I have had three different plumbers look at this problem and contacted the manufacturer but no one seems to have a fix.
@@Road_Renner did you ever get this fixed?
@@andyvan27 No - never did. We have enough pressure and volume to take a decent shower, but flush a toilet and we get about half the volume of water coming out of the shower head.
@@Road_Renner, just curious I've tried everything but change the main line. I never thought it might be the manifold.
@@andyvan27 If you ever come up with a fix, please let me know. This is crazy. You would think these manifold systems would be great for loss of pressure and volume - but just the opposite. I have tremendous pressure coming into my house and my pressure regulator is set to take it down to 70 psi. Run one faucet and pressure is great. But run another faucet or toilet and I get about half the pressure and volume. I see the one commenter to this video says he only has 43 psi coming in from the street. If my main pressure coming from the street was that low and I flushed a toilet I’d have a trickle coming out of another faucet or shower head. By the way, in my efforts to get this resolved I had a plumber replace the 3/4 inch pex from the pressure regulator and back-flow valve with a one inch line and also replace the back-flow valve thinking that was the problem - that didn’t help. GOOD LUCK BUDDY!
I like the hybrid between home run and traditional, localized manifolds
How does that work? Each line from the block goes into a manifold that spreads it between each device in the bathroom?
I live in a 1800' 2-story townhouse built in 1985. It was originally built with 3/4" galvanized plumbing throughout. In 1994, due to ongoing leakage problems in the pipes themselves, I made the decision to re plumb the entire house with PEX and a Manablock manifold. That was the BEST decision I ever made. I have been extremely pleased with the system, and find that I get hot water at the fixtures quicker than before. My PEX is 3/8" and I find that completely adequate. I did have one problem being a leak in the manifold itself within the 10 year warranty period. The company replaced the manifold at no charge, and I have not had any problems since then. I recommend it for any application, especially re-piping. My manifold is installed in my attached garage behind my washer, next to my water heater.
Nice video. I've installed a TACO Circ pump at the end of the line which dumps the cold, from the hot. The automatic temperature shut off will stop the circulation so no water waste. I even installed a wireless motion to activate the TACO when entering the bathroom.
A good compromise (what I did in my own house) is construct a manifold that feeds 'uses' of water, vs individual fixtures. For instance, I have a shared bathroom and laundry room. The laundry tub sink and washing machine share a 1/2" laundry hot/cold line. The bathroom side (sink, toiler, shower) share a 1/2" hot and 3/4" cold line. The 3/4" cold means that there is enough flow for the toilet to not impact the sink/shower. While the 1/2" hot allows both the sink and shower to run at the same time.
Similarly, there is a single pair run to the kitchen, upstairs bath, etc. The big advantage of this system is better control over the volume of water that has to be removed from the lines to get the hot/cold as desired to each individual user, but with the ability to use the sink and pre-charge the system for the shower (or another point of common use.)
To quicken the hot water to the taps in my two story, I ran a 3/4 line from the water heater, to a manifold that I located close to the main bathroom shower on the second floor. (Highest point) This manifold had a return line (uninsulated) back to the water heater and connects at its drain tap.
This allows for a natural convection recirc loop. I have quick hot water to my bathroom, master bed rm bathroom and laundry room.
I also grouped my hot water lines together which allowed me to wrap the bunch with 2 or 3 inch diameter fibreglass pipe insulation in the basement starting from where it groups together after the basement manifold. Once a line leaves the group, it was wrapped in 1/2” diameter. Only pain on doing this was where the pex had a fastener or support.
BTW. Yes the laundry is located closer to the areas where clothes come from, the bedrooms on the second floor. And no the laundry room has never experienced a leaked since I built the house in 1994. I also switched to an on demand water heater in 2006. It has the recirc system included so the existing recirc line could connect into that.
No regrets. I think this manifold set up is great. Thanks for this video.
Thats how boilers work. Explain, do you a dedicated return line?
@@bojack2740 yes a half in line runs back to the water heater. Originally connected in with the water heater tank drain valve, down low. Now I have a tankless heater that accepts return line.
I live here in upstate NY and I am a contractor. I do most of my own work such as plumbing, electrical, sheetrock, trim etc. I did the same on a 2 story home I remolded a few years back. I ran a 1" pecks line from the well holding tank to a large primary water filter then continue with 1'" manifold tee off with 3/4" for electric hot water and all the fixtures in the home with the exceptions of the toilets witch were 1/2". So I had two 1" manifolds one for hot and one for cold with a shut off valves for all the fixtures and on the end of each going into the sub pump hole. So you could shut off the individual fixture and drain the line. Work great! Plenty of pressure in all fixtures!
That is called Star Topology! Home runs in electrical and data follow that Star Topology pattern. Thanks Matt for all your videos....I am a construction estimator and I love the new stuff you bring to the table.
I have done the home runs like this for a long time. What I decided to do, was to bring a 3/4 homerun to the group. (Ex. Master bath has a 3/4 trunk to it, with 1/2 and 3/4 branching off of that main trunk). This way I have hot water delivered one time to the group. I also bring a new manifold to each floor. Most remods I do are big, and so I install new water heaters on each floor. Never a demand for water. I am not a fan of tankless.
Plumber definitely looks like he knew what he was doing and really put the time in to make it look professional, but a couple things that caught my eye was 1) the 3/4 line to the water heater with the use of insert fittings...if more than 1 person is taking a shower and someone turns on a sink it will be noticeable. 2) Most pex manufacturers recommend 12-18 inches of metal pipe separation between the water heater and the pex. 3)3/4 cold water feeding the water softener...with the 3/4 insert fitting, it is basically choking the waterline down to 1/2"...using an uponor brand or something similar would help solve that or running 1" to the manablock
Dude... that manifold system is the most wasteful use of pipe and water imaginable... I did it in my house 15 years ago... Thought it was the coolest thing ever... And then realized it was the stupidest thing ever... but it looks so f****** rad!
You can still have a recirc system with that ridiculous manifold system... And just add some more plastic pipe to your badass crib!
Agreed, wouldn't PEX-A work better as the inside diameter of the fitting maintain the 3/4" diameter of the pipe?
Plumber looks like he may have a little OCD... Nice looking work.
From www.huduser.gov/portal/publications/pex_design_guide.pdf the pipe temperature limit guideline in 185F (82C). At that temperature, hot water is a health hazard and I've never seen an on demand or immersion heater set to provide water at those temperatures. If it was a pressurised radiator system then definitely the copper is a requirement.
Is there a real plumber out there looking at this to answer this thread properly?
PS my preference is remote manifolds. I installed a 4C+3H manifold in my bathroom in the local linen closet..install went like a charm.
I put one of these in the 3.5 bath house that I bought & renovated 3 years ago. It was super nice during the renovation to have the water turned off for most of the house but keep a bath & hose bib running. As I finished up rooms I could just turn them on.
If it had been a new build then the runs could have been much shorter for 2 of the bathrooms. Since we didn’t open all of the walls & ceilings, however, some of the fixtures had to follow the original path which was almost 100 pipe feet for the master sink (from the attic, under the foundation & back to the 2nd floor). It doesn’t take that long to clear the cold water because you don’t have to heat up every line but it’s true that you don’t get the benefit of already having hot water for the shower after the sink has run for 2 minutes.
The biggest issue for me was how much space it takes up. Not just the manifold but the bundles of pipes in the walls & joists. Next time I will make my own manifold & just have one run per room & split it there.
i live in central florida and have one of these systems - it's in the garage, and the company that installed it built a box/cabinet around it, so it has two doors that open to get access to the panel - just like having a circuit breaker for your water system. only drawback i have is that i didn't pay extra to insulate the cold water, so in the summer (most of the year) the water in the cold pipes heats up (they run through the attic) so you have to let the water run for the 15-20 sec for the cold water to come through, so opposite of what Matt talks about in the video with hot water. and, as others have mentioned, you don't get pressure drops or temperature changes when someone uses another fixture in the house (like having someone flush the toilet while you're in the show)
So, that's a pro of changing to PEX?
Great Video! You raise some important cons. Particularly with having to evacuate each point of use. What about running a couple trunk lines to different zones or rooms? One trunk to Master Bath, which then forks to vanity and shower...? I love the ability to shut off water to parts of a house for repairs/remodels. Balance that with the cost/waste of evacuating those lines every time...
Also, what are your thoughts on point of use water heaters?
@Anthony Sparapani That is how I would do it. Would be nice to be able to run a return line just before the mini-manifold so the water can circulate as well. Clean and simple way of always having hot water quickly.
Some people do install it the way you said.
I think you should know what pex is, till then keep it to yourself
If 2000 sq.ft is small, I must live in a shed.
No shit. I was thinking same thing
Depends where you are but stuff in tx is cheap
😂😂😂
American standards. I live in a 1000sq apartment and have plenty of space
I have 3400 square feet at my house 2000 square feet is not really that big 2500 square feet is u.s. medium.
EXCELLENT video. Very informative and great delivery. Thank you Matt
Love how neat and clean this all looks.
My preference for ad placement would be right after the title card (i.e. intro->title card->ad->rest of the video). Having a unrelated ad in the middle of the content was a bit jarring.
And for pity's sake, / isn't backslash! Matt said it wrong twice! UGH!
@@billsherman6129 He also called the hot water line and manifold "cold", and made some other trivial errors. It's like no checking at all is done....
@@billsherman6129 Agreed - Matt next time say FORWARD slash... think of this '\' as leaning back, thus a back slash and this '/' as leaning forward, thus a forward slash. Otherwise a great video as always... thanks!
@@billsherman6129 You've got issues, dude.
wah
"It could be a long time before hot water." No, Matt. The first manifold distributed system I installed was 1991. Every pipe was a home run, there were no concealed connections in the system except two. Those two were the master bedroom shower, a dedicated shower, the backside of the Grohe shower valve drywall behind the valve. In the entire remainder of the house, the pipes exited to the shut off valve under the sink or toilet,, visually and manually accessible. The REASON I went with a distributed system was for quick hot water availability to the master bedroom shower. I was presented with two choices only at the engineering stage. With 3 full and 1 half bath, second floor laundry. The minimum riser from basement to second floor was a 1 inch riser. A one inch riser times 20 vertical feet, plus 20 horizontal feet, requires a heated hot water circulating loop,,, or limited hot water if another shower and the laundry tub is filling,, or a LONG time to bring hot water to the Master Bedroom shower. Distributed systems fed with a 1" to the manifold are surge proof. Flush all the toilets you want,, you will never need to have a pressure balanced protector. (Except code still will require it for another decade or two.)
So,,for the house in 1991 , a 7/16ths ID (the tech of the day) gray PEX plastic,, plastic is not the heat thief as is copper, (Note: I used zero plastic fitting in the entire system) delivered hot to the master shower in 12 seconds, 70 pipe feet away. 1/2 , 3/4 and 1" copper cannot come close to the performance of a PEX distributed system. I have installed many since then. The goal and the benefit is zero joints in the walls. I used 500 and 1000 foot reels of pipe, set up on a spinning pipe between ladders to pull the pipes through the house, just like Romex. It requires a different mind set,,,,, We think, because of copper, threaded, and CPVC,, we think in right angle bends. Wipe that thinking from your mind and think in terms of a race track with high speed large radius, corners all of radii and parabolas, ,,, a pipe routing can, and should be,, the longest radii that you can envision,, Drill all your holes in the direction of the bend. Making the turn from a 2X10 floor into a 2X4 wall, it is easy to maintain a 20 inch or 30 inch radius. Feeding hot and cold to a 2 sink vanity, toilet, rear yard hose bib, and hot for dish washer and hot and cold for the kitchen sink,,, 9 runs in one wall,,, you do the entire thing with 9 7/8" holes, in each stud, center of wall the farthest run a 7 foot radius. Everything smooth and uninterrupted. I would never bundle my supplies under a basement joist,,, how can you finish the ceiling without a pipe chase, or dropped ceiling,,, and you have lost one of the benefits of many small easy to drill holes in soft arcs, and no hangers or clips. I have done multiple shower rooms for the Boy Scouts,, each shower getting a dedicated hot and cold,,,, zero surge,, zero pressure change when someone else turns theirs on or off.
When you get the hang of the system, one man can run all the supplies from basement manifold to inside of every vanity and sink base, shower access, and laundry room wall,, in a single day. And never pull out a torch. It is actually easier and faster than pulling electrical cables,, the plastic pipe is a little flexible and a little rigid and the plastic PEX is slippery against the wood. If you have kept to generous bends,and holes drilled in the direction you are going, , it pulls easy and very fast.
The only change I would ask of materials suppliers. The absolute ideal ID for a distributed system is 3/8", a 3/8ths inch PEX line,,, a one centimeter line.,, fairly thick wall, zero right angle bends, would give a 5 gallon per minute flow rate. Smaller and easier to pull,, and yet much faster hot water response. After 27 years? of installing them in my projects, there is nothing faster, there is nothing less expensive, and there is nothing better than a distributed system. What you show on the wall,,, we all should be doing,, with zero fitting buried in the walls,, and zero pipes in outside walls.
This exactly. I installed the Manabloc system on a 1949 house I remodeled 10 years ago. I needed to replace old galvanized water pipe throughout the house. Most of my runs were ⅜" PEX which is more than adequate for faucets and toilets and ½" for bath, shower, laundry and hoses. Very fast heat up throughout the house and no more pressure drop resulting in cold or scalding hot showers.
That is exactly my experience too. Going to the 1/2 for the tub fill makes good sense. The two seater whirlpool tub took a long time to fill. Most of my recent installs have been 1/2 inch,,, because 1/2 inch is so available. The old pex was about 7/16ths ID,,, never had any trouble with delivery rates. Part of it I think is down to the smooth curves and no right angle bends,, the water speeds through.
I recently retrofitted an expansion PEX system (Uponor) into my 1970's-era home, replacing the old electric water heater with a Rinnai gas-powered tankless unit. Better, I think, than the more common crimp system and very easy to install. I also incorporated a 3M whole-house filter, with a bypass for the toilet and hose lines. Compliments to the plumber who did a masterful job on the manifold setup in this video.....getting the hoses visually balanced like that takes an extra measure of effort. PS: I did notice the comments about 18" of separation between the start of PEX and the water heater. I did that in my install, picking it up as a local code requirement. Maybe not required in Austin, TX?
Super helpful thanks!! Never thought about the priming on hot water
I did a home run when I added a second floor. I made sure the design had a mechanical room. Architects can design for these and make the mechanical area somewhat central. I think these systems are the way to go.
The way to get around the issues with longer runs is to install small manifolds near whatever plumbing group is far away from the water heater. Run a 3/4" line to supply each smaller manifold.
Yeah they selling the hell out of some pipe so a plumber can have a tiny amount of convenience once every 8years or so.
yep exactly
lol i don't think you understand how water flows. Why would a manifold next to the fixture be full of hot water compared to the manifold in the mechanical room? The water will be as cold as the water in the line, until you turn on the water on and move it to the manifold near the fixture. You need hot water flowing to the manifold to keep it hot lmao
@@ryan39584 The point is to avoid stagnant water in long runs that are rarely used. That was the issue raised in the video. If you have manifolds distributed through the house, you only have a short run of 1/2" pipe for the water to get stagnant in. I don't think you understand reading comprehension or critical thinking. Thanks for playing though.
@@ryan39584 Evidently you weren't paying attention at 8:00 where he spoke of having to charge each long home run in the master bath with hot water separately even though the fixtures are only a few feet away from each other. A small manifold in the master batch would eliminate this issue by charging the manifold in the master bath thereby making all nearby water hot rt away. get it?
I did something similar to this thirty years ago in my home it costs a reasonable amount to add ball values on every line but it gave the opportunity to isolate individual lines for service later my plumber felt I was crazy to spend the money but for I found value in it exspecialy with being able to drain exterior line before winter
Hi Matt, good info as always. I've learnt lots from the Build Show! I built our 1st custom home which we installed the same Manabloc. Our straight run from the manifold to the master bath is approx. 30 ft. I noticed a 40 sec or so lag with the hot water in the master shower and other fixtures. On the next build, I'd like to get your thoughts on incorporating a manifold install with logic plumbing which I hope to benefit both the easy-of-use of the manifold and allow for quicker delivery off a trunk line. In this config, I will be able to install a smaller manifold with each H/C run as the "trunk" to multi-port tees (for baths, kitchen and laundry) to the individual fixtures. Do you think incorporating a recirc unit is possible and/or adds value?
I like when they set these up in nodules, so you would actually charge the specific room like one restroom. Still is nice you only shut down a single room vs the house.
tat is why you place a dedicated shut off (like you should to begin with) at the toilet, sink wherever and they rest of the house runs fine.
@@garyring8306 🤣🤣🤣 lol your clearly not a builder. I am and those dedicated shut off valves are trash and fail often. It's nice to shut off areas to replace valves or to just keep off if not in use. It also reduces runs and is more efficient.
@@jr303official That's why you only use r-19s,my Boy.
You can trunk and branch only the hot then one monoblock for the cold home runs. This way you can do a recirc pump if you would like.
I wish my house was this way:/ I want instant hot water.
thanks for providing this video. For future videos, you may want to consider the comment about "one of the downsides of PEX...". There are some adv/disadv for PEX vs. copper but the fitting count isn't one of them. In theory, if you plumb a PEX system using traditional routes like you would with copper, the fixture count is identical or copper will be more when you consider that most people order 10' sticks and PEX will have less fittings in long straight runs. Also, you may want to comment on HW return approach and how this is more challenging for manifolded home-run systems. Personally, I think there's a time and place where either of these would be preferred when you factor in labor costs, installer expertise, density of fixtures, etc., you might even decide a hybrid using little of both makes more sense.
I have one of these systems and have been using it for 9 years it's nice. The runs average 50 feet so it may take 30 seconds to get hot water. I agree that the hot lines need to be insulated. An electric in line heater should be installed under each sink. We don't have that here, but if we lived in town where water and sewer are expensive I would definitely add the heaters.
A pro that was not mentioned; You can manually turn down the hotwater supply to the shower to tell your kids it is time to get out of the shower.
they make timer valves for the hot side too, so that single run to the kids shower turns hot off after 15 mins ;)
@@brand0n. dead ass lmaooooo
You know, if you people built showers for water volume instead of water pressure, many teens and adults would take a lot shorter showers. It's that exact control methodology that had me taking forever in the shower controlled by my dad, instead of the 2-minute showers in the house owned by my mother. They said the same of his step-daughter, too. Mere water delivery, and water pressure, is not 'plumbing done right'- water volume at sinks and showers is. I've since proven this as an adult. California regulations can go screw themselves - the rest of the country isn't hurting for water, not to the degree that taking quick showers - made quick by water volume - is ever going to be a problem.
Yep, I have a PEX manifold system, and I have turned off the kids' shower hot water a couple of times!
I love that 😂😂😂
My my sister had that system in Colorado in the house. That system makes so much sense. Over here in Florida you have to turn off the main water to work on a bathroom? I'm an electrician and we have main panels for the electric at a house. How come they don't do the same thing such as what you're showing for all houses?
This is a really clean install. Nicely done.
I have a manifold system for each bathroom in the house as well as the kitchen manifold. This eliminates the waiting on hot water problem for multiple fixtures in the same room!
You could always do a run to just the kitchen or bathroom and then branch off that to the fixtures as you would with traditional copper. Once the feed is charged, no waste, no bulk, easy for remodeling too.
Absolutely agree. While the system above is extremely granular (meaning that I can literally turn off cold or hot water at EVERY SINGLE FIXTURE), probably just as useful would be to plumb it like your breaker box, meaning that one "circuit breaker" turns on or off an entire room, such as a bathroom. Probably just as useful.
I worked on a 3500 square foot house that had a manifold system and water heater on each end of the house to keep the runs short
I have that exact system in my 2000 square foot house, except my “panel” is on the first floor of the two story house. There is no basement. We are completely satisfied with this system and find the short wait for hot water to be trivial.
I’ve used this system in my personal house but the majority of the lines were 3/8 inch. It worked well when located centrally even in a 4600 sf house.
I like that drinking and ice water (as well as outside taps) are branched out before the softener, to both remove the taste of softening, and to not waste the softening on watering the garden.
One unmentioned advantage is that this system is *way* easier to use when replacing pipes in an existing house and the PEX can be snaked through the walls.
Some other notes:
In the south: we put these in our garage.
If you really want to use shared piping to a distant location you can do that; simply put a manifold or split in [for example] your master bath. You won't have the single-outlet-per-output in your main manifold; but you'll still get many of the advantages.
Closed hot loops don't work well with instant-on heaters (because you have to keep re-heating the water); so sometimes the inability of this system to use a closed loop isn't really a disadvantage.
You are right that these aren't insulated. I've never seen insulated plumbing pipe (but I'm in the south: maybe it's different in the north).
I'm not convinced that "hot shower then hot sink almost immediately before/after" is a common enough scenario to make it something to account for.
The lack of joints improves water pressure.
Love your channel, and how you share your expertise. This Old House was doing pex manifold systems (and many of the other building construction innovations you have shown) well before 2010. How come the rest of the US builders have taken so long to catch on, or haven't even caught on to date?
A few points if I may... 1)our house was plumbed with 3/4 pex that went to bath, shower, washer and then kitchen sink (continued on to 2nd bath). It used to take 2:45 to get hot water at the kitchen sink. Since I replaced the plumbing with these direct runs, it takes 25 seconds to get hot water to the kitchen sink. The back bath used to not get hot water when the slab was cold unless you turned on the lavatory faucet while showering due to thermal loss in the slab. Now we get hot water in 40 seconds and it’s hot due to the increased velocity in the pipe. 2)getting hot water primed in a trunk/branch system with a circulation pump is a waste of energy. 3) keep the distance between your hot water tank and that manifold at a minimum. 4)there’s an inlet on the bottom of that manifold for cold inlet to the house. 5)The top right (blue) pipe is really the stub out to the water heater... cold into the bottom inlet, cold to water heater out the top right, hot in from water heater on top left. Good video though, glad to see the word getting out about this... it just makes so much sense when compared to an electrical breaker box. Very handy to shut off one line instead of the whole house.
When you get the Electrician to plumb your home
I'm an electrician, and this looks like poop.
I was thinking, "Who let the women design a plumbing system?"
@@goalie2998 I think he was meaning how nicely labelled and designed the lines were, as opposed to most plumbing installations where the pipes are Tee'd in every direction, no markers, minimal shut off valves. Then again i've seen electrican installations that could be included into that description and where "installed by plumbers".
I have some electrical experience and I agree!
@I C Why would they do that if you can just turn it off at the manifold ?
I feel like this would work well with splitting the system into smaller manifolds, per level. That way, you have one hot and one cold lead to each bathroom and then much shorter runs to the faucet and shower, for example. Thinking that would drastically reduce the amount of plumbing runs and you'd still have the ability to shut things down locally. Kind of a hybrid between this and the standard branched setups you'd see.
But I'm not a plumber or builder, just someone with an interest in keeping up to date on the stuff for future reference
Edit: apparently, I'm not the only one that thought of this
Ya but you would need to install a thermostatic mixing valve to avoid uneven distribution of hot and cold water. If you were to for example flush the toilet while you shower it would cause a flash of hot water with the lack of cold water after flushing said toilet.
DISCLAIMER: I am not a plumber and the highest level of skill I have in plumbing was when i recently replaced/installed the fill valve in my toilet (thus why I’ve been getting plumbing RUclips vids recommended to me 💀) with barely any (key word barely) complications. I did recently watch a few plumbing videos out of boredom in the middle of the night while I should have been sleeping and I saved 15% on my car insurance by switching Epstein island Auto Insurance. At this point I’m basically a master RUclips plumber so ask away and I will look up the answer for you 🤗
Great review that covers it ALL!
Thank you very much !!! Great video, great explanation , A++
Very cool. My house is over 100 years old. Plumbing and electric were both after thoughts. And a complete nightmare to figure out.
Hey Matt, you've got a second-take at 10:48 where you didn't cut out the first take immediately before. This is great info. Do you think there's any advantage to hybridizing this system, i.e., using fewer discrete lines from a smaller manifold to isolate, say, single rooms instead of each fixture?
Great info chief, really helpful 👍
Good information, thank you Matt!
for a bigger house could you use multiple manifolds and run a circ system to the manifolds only? that way the longest pipe you would have to vacate would be
You want to do that, run an Uponor system. Fewer runs and easy to recirculate.
I really like manifolds but I prefer a hybrid system (a main manifold feeding smaller manifolds around the house). Shorten the runs lengths and you still have a central manifold per room to turn fixtures off. I would install my electrical system the same way (using a sub panel for each floor). A bit more expensive but so much easier to add stuff later on.
That's what I was thinking. One run of hot and cold all the way to the bathroom, then split off for toilet, tub, shower, and sink from there. You wash you hands or shave, the hot line is charged for the shower and vice-versa.
that is a good idea what about a circulation pump ?
@@rickrudd Yes and it's much easier to insulate one big hot pipe than several small ones.
A hybrid system lets you do recirculation to get latency under control (but not perfect) with a fraction as much pipe and insulation.
while remodeling my house this is what i did some what. instead i only have a upstairs bath and downstairs. my small mechanical room is under my stairs in the kitchen. so the kitchen just has a main feed to the sink and then branch off for a pot filler, hose bib, and ice maker. back in the mechanical room i went up with a main, hit the bath room and branch off to the sink, toilet and shower. first floor bath, i ran a main and copper headers, that reduce to 1/2. and then runs to the clothes washer and then other branches for shower, toilet, and sink. It works quite well. I spent the extra money and have plenty of ball valves installed. my 1 inch main has a valve, then my 3/4 has a valve at the transition, then when it comes up to to the room another valve, then valves to isolate the softener, then valves for upstairs, and water heater isolation, and hard water supply isolation to hard water points. and isolation under the house at the headers. reduced fittings by doing more sweeps and keep it loose for expansion. in the future once i gather up my control system parts from work as we start upgrading customers BAS ill collect the otherwise thrown out good controllers and buy some actuators and install a main water shut off valve that can be controlled as well as add some flood sensors so if i have a leak and im not home it can automatically shut the water off. as well as tie in some other stuff in the house such as my HVAC. but thats another story. anyway so far it seems to work quite well. im running a 27kw tankless water heater, it doesnt do to bad running 2 showers at the same time, or running a bath and taking a shower or running a shower and 2 sinks. whats also nice is say you run the clothes washer and then use the downstairs shower you already have hot water almost immediately since they are tied to the same header. now upstairs wont see much gain from it unless some one was to wash there hands or something and then someone else went to hop in the shower then you could see a gain from it. i wouldnt mind doing a recalculation system however it wouldnt fit in to well with a tankless water heater, even though i have thought of some ideas how to make a tankless work with it and using one of our controllers, some sensors and relays as well as a storage tank, i could make it work however would then take away from the reason to have the tankless anyway since the plus to the tankless is since no one is home x amount of hours a day its not sitting there burning energy to heat a tank of water. unless i set it up with a schedule to where it will start the system at a specific time and stop at a specific time. or have timed intervals.
All plumbing aside (really enough work this week!), nice outfit! Maybe do a few videos in this style?
They have a neat site... would be nice if they also tailored to Canadian customers!!
Good for you, you are bringing plumbing finally into 2020. Now if you could have an effect on the toilets, sinks and basins. WOW!. And, my favorite town Goldendale. Good work!
Iguana
"Beautiful Install"??? Someone needs to read the installation standard for Viega ManaBloc. The PEX needs to come straight off the fittings (horizontally and vertically), then be secured 4-6 inches from the manifold, BEFORE the tubing bends to prevent putting pressure on the manifold fittings. It's right there in the "viega-pex-installation-manual". This installation was not done in accordance with the manufacturer's instructions.
You are correct. My Renovator made the plumbers redo the manifolds, so the PEX tubing were horizontal, supported and were not subject to gravity. Since it was done 9 years ago, I hope the plastic holds as i bet the products are better now.
The way this was done is completely acceptable. There’s barely a bend. And if ya wanna get technical they’re straight for a pretty good distance. Also, the gravity of the system puts a lot more stress on the manifold fittings.
@@thomasrudder9639 Then you have a very different opinion than the engineers who designed it and the people who manufacture it. Their installation standards for the Manabloc are unambiguous and this installation does not meet their standard. If the Manabloc and tubing are properly aligned and secured, there will be no stress on the manifold fittings because the fittings will not be under tension nor will they be supporting the load. Read the manual. Argue with them if you disagree.
Yeah. There are even videos available on RUclips by Viega explaining steps in proper install. It would appear Matt may want to, at the very least, have someone else (seeing how he doesn't have time to shop) research products prior to giving praise.
I was wondering why they started the bend at the fitting. ...3yrs from now when it splits
Good pros and cons discussion, but wouldn’t you also reduce the momentary pressure drops when multiple fixtures are being used (ie when you’re in the shower especially)?
Not if the piping was sized correctly. In other words if a 3/4 line was ran to a bathroom for instance you would not notice a drop in volume by flushing a toilet while taking a shower. Its all about volume and pipe size
I have had one of these for over 16 years and when running a shower or any other fixture you can tell NO difference if someone else turns on another fixture.
I use it and it’s fantastic
Matt, I’ve got 2 distribution manifolds in my house. The distant one is fed through by the near, and the lines are covered largely in spray foam as a by product of my sealed attic. A Grundfos pump pressurizes a loop whenever a bathroom, kitchen, or otherwise indicated by the automation system triggers a circuit in my lighting control relays. While there is some wait at some fixtures, the manifolds themselves and selected faucets do not wait at all for hot water. The automation system sequences the hot water loops for 5 minutes at a time. So when anybody triggers a light in a new location, the hot loops get reenergized for 5 minutes. By having 2 manifolds, I cut down on distance to fixtures as most baths are on one side or the other of the house. The first manifold sits right on top of the kitchen, so home runs are relatively short. I don’t like the trunk and branch systems because of what I call “unsupervised” fittings inside walls. If a fitting leaks, you might not know until it’s too late. None of my fittings are unsupervised, except for shower valves. Which I could not avoid. I used uponor pex and love the stuff.
The hot water supply is coming from 3 tanks, a desuperheater tank using waste heat from my geothermal heat pump, backed up with evacuated tube solar, and then a dedicated heat exchanger tank that is heated from the geothermal dedicated hot water function. Essentially I pay little or nothing for hot water, and in fact in the summer the more hot water you use the higher efficiency my gshp operates.
I also used a 3rd system to feed reverse osmosis water to 2 dispensers in my kitchen islands, and 2 refrigerator ice and water dispensers. Using only plastic fittings and pex in that manifold because of corrosive qualities of the r/o water.
Come by and take a look, I’m in Texas.
Sounds great but what is the house size and how much was the system itself?
Great videos, Matt! At 3:32 did you mean hot side?
Finally. Someone that knows how to plumb. Plumbers for hundreds of years been so stinkin dumb.
I am so sick of turning water off out at the meter because of a small leak in my bathroom.
Its about time someone overstepped the plumbers and made a decent water system.
awesome thank you for the information and the video.....helped me learn plumbing
Great information on the MANOBLOC all my lines are less then 15 feet that is why i choose it.
When doing a manifold style system you should supply water on both ends of the manifold for a more balanced system
You beat me to it....
Is that why the manifold has that port on the bottom going to nothing and capped off?
@@hillaryclinton2415 Is that why the manifold has that port on the bottom going to nothing and capped off?
Trunk and Branch, or Homerun structures aren't perfect for every situation. Most need some kind of hybrid design. But make it out of PEX! It beats any other material by a country mile! I used it in my place, and I'm lucky I did. I was on vacation last winter visiting family when I got a call from our alarm system stating that in-house temps had fallen below freezing. My family raced home and we found the power had dropped, messing up our temporary heating system, and the lines frozen solid. I got the power straightened out, heat going, and not one broken line or fitting. I'll use PEX from now on until something better comes along.
I have this system in my condo. Love it.
Wow, I love that! never even knew it existed. I would love if it only took 15 seconds for hot water. I am in a 2300square foot concrete slab home with copper pipe and it takes over a minute for the master shower to get hot.
Insulate the pipes or pex helps.
15 seconds is optimistic. 30 seconds or longer Is not uncommon. The only real answer is a spot booster/instant heater, but the you usually need electrical or gas work, as well.
Cold showers will change your life, after the first couple mornings you'll wish you had been taking them your whole life!
Run soft water to Reverse Osmosis system for drinking water. It's a little price but worth it.
RO is considered a really bad idea for drinking water in the home. I want RO for certain uses, e.g. nice coffee, but I agree with the World Health Organisation who issued a warning against it
On the hot water side, a 1/2" homerun defeats one of the primary benefits of the homerun system - quick hot water delivery. A 3/8" homerun is sufficient for all but a multi-head shower or tub filler, and it has half the capacity of a 1/2" line, so it will deliver hot water in half the time.
BULLSEYE! but there are SO MANY MORE downsides to a manifold. you can take it from a 30 year veteran plumber.
🤩🤩 love that system, look nice and supported very well
13 years ago all that was available in my area was a soldered copper manifold when I did my house.
Its come a long way.
No worry, copper is better by far.
Great callout on “everything homerun”
forgot to mention the amount of tubing going on here compared to the conventional plumbing.
There are ways to mitigate this. 1. Use 3/8 pex on low flow fixtures. 2. You can build recirc loops thru the Manablock so the distribution point is always hot. 3. Move Manablock's closer to point of use by zoning use areas and using multiple Manablocks for each zone.
@@nneelix Wouldnt that turn out te become more expensive ?
i have this system and i love the fact you do not get a large pressure drop when the toilet is flushed so no scalding in the shower.
SOUNDS like you've lived in a track home before. understandable. modern shower & tub faucets have pressure balancing. no more shower shock. not since the early 80's anyway.
Interesting helpful video. But the solution to your cons is in my opinion, right there in front of you, the smaller manifold (multiplied)! (I watch your videos either because as an ex-tinkerer, I liked to mess around with my house just for fun, or now increasingly, as ideas to give to my architect&builder as I start to pull together ideas for my next place. So first of all, thanks for all your videos over the years.) The way I imagine to use manifolds is to use one small water manifold to set up couple-ish trunk lines that run to each "area" of the house, and then use secondary manifolds to do final branching locally. After watching some of your other shows, I've also decided that this branched manifold setup + few localized instant-hot-water heaters is my preferred way to get hot+cold. That means, the main manifold is only for cold, and the hot water heaters are situated with each local manifold. Yes, a bit more money up front in material and workmanship, but much higher comfort and control.
Excellent identification of the pros and cons of Pex and a manifold system. Sadly some cities/counties won't accept that turn off at the manifold as an acceptable shut off - they still require a cutoff at each fixture. The farce that creates is that typically showers and tubs can be installed without a cut off at 'the fixture' meaning that in those cases you have to shut off water to the ENTIRE home to replace a tub/shower faucet or even just to service it with new seals/cartridges. The solution to an inflexible code rule is to still install a shutoff valve at those fixtures (bathrooms, toilets, kitchen faucet, ice maker, & Laundry room.
I re-plumbed my in-laws old home with pex and used a copper manifold. It was about 2400-2600 sq feet two story with a basement and not one run of pex is over 20 feet. I did have to put a couple of elbows in the pex line to get out of the wall in two locations.
The other upside for me especially not a single leaky connection or re-fit of any connection. The only leak at all was when the incoming line with brass fitting connected to a brass fitting on my pex line to the manifold - that brass to brass fitting was stubborn and took several unhook and rehook to stop a one drop per minute leak.
One other point you might use as a pro is the manifold system built correctly can allow a little expansion with no major rework of connections and of course without having to turn the main water supply off. So you could add a second fridge with ice maker, standalone ice maker of another washer and all you have to do is just run that line to the manifold. Same of course if a add-on remodel is done to add another bathroom.
Can you do a pro/con video on central water heaters vs point of use water heaters? Would running just cold lines in the house, and then lower amp tankless heaters for a bathroom, kitchen or washroom make sense?
imabeapirate Think a tankless gas as a main unit with a small 120V on demand in the kitchen and maybe the bathrooms, the small unit could bridge the gap until the gas fires up and gets hot water to the tap.
I was thinking the same thing. Central water heaters seem a bit outdated and they're definitely bulky, especially if you don't have a basement to put it in.
I personally like large central water heaters that are on timers and point source heaters on any long branch runs. With insulation blankets on water heaters, I set the timer to turn on prior to morning use and the same for the after dinner cleanup and later evening shower.
While 120 degree hot water seems like its good enough, I want nothing to do with Legionella. Hot water needs to be 140F or hotter for safety.
The manifold system system here could be tailored to provide for a long branch with circulation and a smaller manifold close to the end use with a small point source heater.
This is actually something I was wanting to do until I did the actual math on it... Assuming you have an average faucet (2.2GPM according to Google) where you have 50F cold and want 130F hot, it would take 26kW. This means running a dedicated 110A 240V breaker, just for that one faucet. That wire isn't even going to be much smaller than a hot water pipe.
Sure, excluding the kitchen sink and maybe washer, nothing in your house really needs 130F temps. So what about 90F? That's "only" 7kW - so a 30A 240V breaker, which is actually pretty reasonable. But, a lot of older houses (at least in the northeast), only have 100A service to the house.
This is why tankless electric water heaters aren't really a thing. Personally, I think putting in a small gas tankless for each is just impractical since you'd have to run gas everywhere and exhausts for each one.
a central water heater tank seems wasteful. it keeps 50 to 150 or so gallons of water 160 deg. 24/7/365. versus only when you need it.
Put the key on a string, that way it won't walk away from where it's needed.
I love the colored pex. Mine is all white which can obviously be confusing. We have the same manifold and it is an awesome piece of equipment
Beautiful craftsmanship. Thank you for sharing. Matt, for larger houses with trunk and branch systems, do you prefer copper or pex?