What's the BEST Plumbing System
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- Опубликовано: 25 янв 2021
- What’s the best plumbing pipe system? In this video I’ll review Manifolds vs Trunk & Branch vs Uponor Logic - For more info go to www.uponor-usa.com/
Metlund DMand Pumps
gothotwater.com/
Gary Klein Articles on hot water delivery
www.garykleinassociates.com/w...
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Volume = π r² h. Less messy.
But not as fun
Can’t make a video with that
@@Ethan7s yes you can I watch them all the time.
I thought the same thing.
Yep. Do the conversions, and you have 1.63c
There's another consideration on the cold side: In the winter in these parts, the water coming into the house is near freezing. In the summer, it is at least 30 degrees warmer. If you don't let the cold also stabilize as it traverses room temperatures, you will not mix well at faucets and showers.
I love Gary Klein's website; just straight up content without wasting half the page on irrelevant graphics. Respect.
I'm working on my house plumbing with Uponor right now and trying to address this exact issue. Very helpful and confirmed some of my own speculations. Thanks Matt.
I have used a Manibloc on my last three full house plumbs. I am very happy with it. More often, the simultaneous use is not right to each other. Pressure seems to equalize in the manifold. Also, showers and tubs usually do not have shut offs at the appliance, which means a whole system shut down for any kind of repair. I agree with your assessment regarding the wait time. For me the advantages of the manifold outweigh the disadvantages.
Here in Phoenix we DEFINITELY care about how long it takes to get cold water 😉🏜
Wow super timely Matt. Just ran my first PEX-A lines (3/4 and 1/2) to bypass a slab leak. This is a 14 year old house originally piped by drunk plumber. It literally takes 4 minutes for hot water to reach the kitchen. Working out where all the manifolds are to work around the leak we figured a way to locate a water heater closer to the kitchen. Not easy to retrofit and avoid breaking into the slab so with PEX going through the attic is more realistic.
Thanks Matt. I love the nerd testing and stats on volume comparison between 1/2 and 3/4. Recirc pumps are definitely on my list of epuipment to implement as standard practice. Though it's a hard sell for some reason. My last two clients declined recirc pumps, and now they regret it. I installed a Veiga Manabloc in 2009 in my first house. I loved the idea of controlling each fixture and eliminating joints. But using less pex with a trunk & branch system and the assurance of ProPex joints I've not installed one since.
I recently replumbed my 1900's era farm house. Using PEX-A, I did a hybrid of trunk and branch and manifold, without a recirc pump.
The system has a manifold for each room that uses water. One manifold port each for Hot and Cold, for the main bathroom, upstairs bathroom, basement bathroom, kitchen, laundry. etc.
To the bathrooms the cold lines are 3/4", while the hot line is 1/2". This ensures that there is plenty of flow for toilet, sink and shower on the cold. While on the hot minimizes the amount of waste water. Having the trunk/branch and manifold hybrid also means if I shave, then hop in the shower the water is already hot for the shower.
In each of the rooms, I've measured (by time) how long it takes for hot water. Downstairs bath, by the manifold is only a few seconds. Main bath is 35 seconds, upstairs bath is about 30 seconds. When the house was on the trunk/branch where it was all 3/4" pipe the time was in the minutes.
I decided to NOT get a recirc pump as it was 'one more thing to fail', and with the longest hot run only being 25 pipe feet, it wasn't worth it.
I do agree, the best plumbing system is one that was designed. The worst is one that was "just installed, cause that is how everyone does it".
I am doing something very similar with PEX-B
Water heater is located near Master Bath so there's a 2 port manifold there to start. Then I have a 3/4" trunk teed in and running to the other side of the house to a 4 port manifold that is handling Kitchen, Washing machine, and other bathroom. The branches there are 1/2" and run about 10 feet.
Recirc can be done on my system, but I think I will do the user-testing portion before adding it.
Matt : "20 seconds, 30 seconds, a minute to get hot water"
Me: has to wait up to 10 minutes and turn on the hot water in the bathroom sink to get the shower to flow warm...
I really need to re-pipe.....
Interesting I'm gonna have to look forward to the next video. I was doing some research on cold region water distribution and how they avoid freezing. They use two lines unless they're serving hot then they use for lines they will loop through the town and back to the water plant. This both keeps the water from freezing and keeps the hot from losing its temperature.
I have a small house but when we did a partial remodel on the cheap, routing the water through existing pathways saved money and money was the name of the game. As a result, the VERY far run takes a good 20 seconds for the hot water to reach the upstairs shower. We are doing a much bigger remodel on the rest of the house and part of it will result in re-running the hot water to the shower with a re-circ pump as Mike here describes. Glad he is validating my research!
Hey Matt, You missed one system - the Gravity Loop System (John Hansen also referred to it). I rehab houses, and I add this feature whenever possible. I have it in my home as well. The water heater needs to be downstairs, where most of the pipes are above it; or in a utility crawlspace. Design the Hot Out of the heater to go straight up for a foot or two. From the farthest hot faucet, bring a return line back, and at some point have it drop downhill at a slope before it gets to the bottom cleanout of the water heater. Put an inline check valve right at the water heater return. All hot water lines must be insulated, except the last 6 to 8 feet of the return. Convection and gravity create a natural slow flow, that keeps the hot charged all the time. We use natural gas water heaters, which are extremely efficient and cost effective. Since all the hot lines are insulated, once they are all charged, the heater hardly has to run to keep the temp up. No pump to turn on and off or replace, no wear from friction from the speed of a constant pump. Beautiful!
- In houses that need a pump for circulation, we use simple on-off one speed pumps, and connect them to an Alexa smart plug. Whenever you want hot water anywhere, just say, "Alexa, run the hot."
So is this pretty much what Matt was talking about just without a circulating pump gravity feed instead (obviously set up a bit different)? If so, it's genius and thanks for the info.
Beware of the plumbing codes. The UPC and IRC prohibit gravity or thermosiphon recirc systems, mainly for energy reasons.
I think one thing that is always brought up in these "conservancy tactics" is what is the energy consumption of the alternative, I also wonder how this is not running risk of the "Legionella Bacteria", as you are inadvertently creating a heating loop using your water heating source; which in retrospect is why you aren't allowed to cross hydronic heating water with domestic water use. Now I know the water heating source and the system won't have fixtures like a hydronic heat system would, but then in this point why not attempt to plumb the system as both a heating and domestic hot water use, now you will have killed two birds with one stone. But back to the first point, you may save the couple gallons of water from hot water lag time, but now what is the cost of the pump circulating the hot water, and the loss of water heat through circulation causing for increased demand through the hot water system? I know water is a finite source, but at this point in time is so is energy; we haven't graduated to renewable energy dependence. I would like to see a combined system though, i think that would be the greatest benefit to all, ample or secondary heat and on demand hot water.
Installing the uponor logic multipurpose system in my new build. It makes total sense with the design layout and number of bathrooms we have.
Many many thanks for link to the Gary Klein articles! Really good info. Am very appreciative of the video too, of course. Nice work here!
He’s awesome! Super smart guy.
Manifold for me due to the removal of temperature fluctuations associated with water usage at other points in the trunk and branch system. My wife can do laundry, dishes, and use the bathroom all while I take a comfortable unchanging temperature shower.
Well if you were helping with the laundry and the dishes you wouldn't have to worry about temperature fluctuations.
@@mcintosh.daughter fair point. But in all seriousness I usually do the laundry 🤣
Seems like a thermostatic mixing valve would easily solve that issue without needing a manifold system.
I too ditched my traditional plumbing for a monobloc and it changed my life. You can shower and flush a toilet and nothing happens.. also it takes less than 10 seconds to get hot water anywhere in the house..
To me a recirculation system is a waste of money in both capex and opex...
If you size the water system properly you shouldnt have temperature fluctuations. I have the one pipe system and have never had any issues.
You know, houses can have plenty of marble, granite, walnut and mahogany but _real_ luxury is having hot water at any tap in a few seconds. That's the thing you're going to notice long after you take the high-end materials for granted...
Well that pretty petty
we still shouldn't take these materials for GRANITE though
Your statement for "luxury" is on point about the hot water lol... hot water is really a luxury... specially in few seconds.
@@sto2779 Especially in Texas. But I’ll bet Pex pipe sales have never been better.
And you can start with the cheapest benchtops in your district and good hot water, and change out your benchtops in five or ten years' time when they're looking shabby and you've got the funds. Upgrading your hot water piping is harder...
Thanks for sharing both the video and the Klein article.
I keep feel like I'm studying home building / remodeling. So, I'm constantly taking notes.
I invested in a Gary Klein plumbing consultation before starting my renovation project. It was an absolutely amazing value. I ended up with a tight plumbing envelope, a recirc loop, and almost no wait for hot water- which means far less water waste overall as well.
What did you pay for the consult?
@@mountains2938 reach out to Gary and he can quote you. He bases his fee on the square footage of the place being renovated. An outstanding value, I can’t say enough good things about him!
Do you know how the recirculating loop affects the electric bill?
@@anthonymccoy4460 my electricity bill is down about 70% from pre-reno. In the long run, you’ll care a lot more about how fast hot water shows up than about the few extra cents it may cost you monthly.
When we remodeled, we replaced our copper "loop" with a Manabloc and pex to each fixture. It's been super reliable and easy to change fixtures and stuff. However, I do need to get the hot water to loop back to the heater because some sinks take a WHILE to get warm.
Try a point of use on demand heater on those long runs?
How long is "a WHILE"? Mine takes about 10 seconds to the furthest faucet..
Hi Matt, im a big fan of your channel and ideas. I did remodel the whole my plumbing system. since I'm DIYer, I did it in sections but still using the race track system. I thought about this for long time combining the manifolds and branch system which is the track system. I did add value on each branch just like a manifolds. so I can close and work on some area and get the water fast. The reason for that because I remodeled the kitchen first then guest bathroom and master bathroom. This system is the best result for not wasting water.
I wish that I can share the pictures.
Hi Mat . I’m interested in weather or not the “race track “ system you mentioned has a pump.
Here in New Zealand we call that a ring main and it has a pump that continuously pumps the water around. Normally we put them on a timer so not running all night. We also have the hot in the ring main at 70 degrees and a tempering valve at each branch to bring it to 50 degrees at the fitting.
This is obviously for larger homes.
Loved seeing the house you had on with the bromball windows and cast concrete. We’re doing a project here with Bromball . Extremely expensive windows!!
I'm a Swedish plumber, would recommend you taking a look at pipe in pipes. This plumbing feels like its done in the 70's but with plastic pipes
can you link me a video?
@@fakie180 Sorry, dident see the respons
here
ruclips.net/video/pMMJwldqctU/видео.html
@@MutsFire Any video in english? Also where would USA find these parts or do we have to order from Sweden? Know of any dealers in Sweden that ship to USA you can point us to?
@@gina6083 I'm sure your Uponor dealers, Lk or similar companies has the systems if you ask them. "pipes within pipes"
The idea is that if something leaks, it don't cause any water dmg
@@MutsFire If it leaks, how would you know?
at the end of this we got a glimpse of your plans - I'm curious if you'd be willing to share those with us? the details you've shared in videos so far are amazing but I'd love to relate them to how they were spec'd. I'd also love a playlist of "My House"! keep up the awesome work and thank you for everything you do to educate us!
6 months later it seems that we will be getting a my house Playlist
i guess im asking the wrong place but does anyone know of a method to get back into an instagram account..?
I somehow forgot the password. I would love any tricks you can give me.
@Johnathan Ronnie Instablaster =)
@Lance Westin I really appreciate your reply. I found the site on google and I'm in the hacking process now.
Seems to take quite some time so I will reply here later with my results.
@Lance Westin It did the trick and I finally got access to my account again. I am so happy:D
Thank you so much you saved my ass!
LOVE your videos! Learning so much that I want to add to the house we are planning! Could you do a break down on Wells vs Cisterns?
As always, thank you for the great show!
Matt, have you ever looked at small electric on-demand water heaters for bathroom sinks? I am considering that in my new build but find no information on that as an option for low-frequency, low-volume hot water needs.
Local on demand water heater seems to be the best option if space and money isn't a worry.
A local water heater with a small tank just enough for the cold water from main heater in the pipe to run out + a thermostatic mixing valve could be a great system.
I've considered on demand instant for an all electric house I'm building. The issue is the increase electrical and plumbing costs. You'd have to run 220V all over the house, and install multiple heaters is more expensive. Not to mention multiple small local heaters are more expensive than one large one. All that add up to >30% up cost which is not insignificant for plumbing an entire house. Well, insignificant for Matt and his client I'm sure.
@@blamuk Not to mention now it's just resistive heating. If you do a recirc loop, couldn't you use a ground source heat pump for the heating for your water? I'm not sure how much a recirc loop costs and uses in energy but in my mind that would be easiest and easy to maintain. Could even have it be smart and only recirculate when someone is home (using cell phone on the Wifi like my Nest thermostat does).
@@blamuk which is why no one uses electric based on demand (non-tank) hot water heaters. the current draw can overwhelm even a decent sized service. now add several around the house and the NEC load calc will require you to have a commercial level electric service. practically, on demand hot water is really only a natural gas thing and not so much an electric thing
@@gregorysmith9158 I see on-demand electric water heaters a lot over here in Germany and Europe in general. It’s nice to have hot water within a few seconds. Many houses (mine included) don’t have natural gas heating. The fact that Germany and much of Europe is wired for 220V and three-phase power probably has a lot to do with it. I don’t see a lot of central water heaters over here like we see back in the States.
Great concept video. Thank you for making it.
When my uncle built his house in the early 90s, a family friend and former contractor gave him a tip. It was a long ranch style house, two bed one bath. The tip was to have a regular hot water heater for the bathroom, and laundry, but to put a small 5 gallon tank under the sink. So in the kitchen you get fast got water no waiting, and it doesn't disrupt someone showering. With the advent of tankless water heaters(or those that store about a gallon I've seen), this is very easy and doable for every sink and lavatory. Just a small box mounted under the sink supplies quick hot water for washing hands ect. Usually not much is used. This can cut down on running lots of pipe, cut down on drilling holes where needed, and in case of a water leak or tank malfunction, you can still have hot water everywhere except showers and baths. No one likes a busted water line, if it froze or if the foundation settles unevenly, and you don't have to track pipe through the walls etc. I have a cut off valve on the cold water line feeding my hot water heater. I've used it several times to keep water on to the toilet and sinks, while I make repairs or maintenance on the heater.
If there was some kind of solenoid device that could reroute water back into the hot water tank, you could turn the hot water on, and as the water flowed it would go back to the tank. Once a temp was reached, say at least 120 or 115, then the water would switch and flow through the faucet. Then you would know that water is hot and very very little would be wasted. However that's just an idea I had and I'm not sure if such a thing exists or if it would be practical or cost effective for residential use. Perhaps in California it would.
I have a 'racetrack' loop. I had to retrofit my house. I had discovered the hot water line went from my water heater (in the attic, code allowed at the time), serviced the 2nd floor bathroom (right below it), then down to a first floor bathroom (beneath the 2nd floor), then down into the cement slab (why, i have no idea), then pops up behind the kitchen (so far about 60 feet if pipe), services that, and laundry room, then up to the master bath. Could not figure out WHY it was taking almost 3 minutes for the water to get hot, then why it would cool off so fast until i put in the circ pump, i had no idea it went into the foundation! After I put the recirc pump in part of the floor tile and a certain section would get warm so I figured out that's where the hot water must be running us through that part of the cement. But everything is insulated now. Circ line goes back to the attic, and hot water is about 5 seconds away . Pump is 93 watts an hour if it ran continuously, but there are motion sensors which trigger the pump when people walk into a zone, so the pump is on maybe 3 minutes at a shot
The motion sensor - that's brilliant!
Race track system works great. I've been doing that for years.
How is pressure on these systems? I have zero experience with them
@@benlastname6667 Pressure is great/no problem there. With a 3/4" loop (race track) and 1/2" and 3/4" feeders to the fixtures pressure is great with no loss when other devices/fixtures are turned on. I've never used 3/8" even as the feeders to the fixtures as Matt said was an option. I will say early on I ran into some issues and had to install check valves in the loop near the connection back to the water heater feed pipe to prevent flow reversal. Now I simply install the check valves as part of the system and I never have any issues.
Informative video. I'm in Ecuador but as I'm from The Netherlands originally (and then lives in the UK for 15 years too), I always hated the plastic piping that is common here, or worse, galvanized steel. We now have hospital-style plumbing; Unsure on the equivalent in the US, but it is clamp-on fittings. We planned it as much as possible with short runs from the boiler and the dishwasher (hot feed) and the sink (same) within a feet or so. Dishwashers that use hot water intake, common in the US and therefore here in Ecuador as a lot of stuff is imported from there, use that for the prewash. With the pods vs powder, you don't get a good prewash usually if the water is cold. So that initial inrush of 'really too cold' water can really impact ability to clean. Having that initial water warmer by having less loss (in that context, less cold water as part of that initial intake), will make a substantial difference. Little details matter. I'm no builder but it is always good to pick up on some great ideas shared on this channel.
Upgrading my own ancient homestead where I don't have to worry about resale, I created what I call "Hillbilly PEX". It's a modular manifold system using standard PVC and CPVC. No special tools, everything is cheap, but I still get the convenience of a central manifold with individual cutoffs.
What I like most about individual direct lines is that if there's a water leak in the middle of the night, I can just cut off that one line, go back to bed, and worry about it in the morning. I don't have to immediately spend any time diagnosing the problem, I never have to walk outside in the freezing cold to cut the water off. That peace of mind is priceless.
"Smart" house design can play a part in this? My home is a split level, the two upstairs bathrooms are adjacent to the kitchen on the middle level, and the laundry room and water heater are beneath the kitchen in the basement. I replaced old copper with PEX a few years ago, with manifold basically between the kitchen and baths- my longest run is about 15 feet the rest shorter. It's only 3-4 seconds for hot water at the farthest point. If I were doing it over again, I would use 3/8" for the sinks to cut the time even more (I'm guessing 1/2" is still best for tub filling). It's a good layout I think.
I'm sure it was built this way because the architect/contractor were trying to minimize costs, not make a more efficient or better house. But I really don't think it compromised the use or livability of the house; even though it wasn't for the "right" reasons I think it's a good design.
My sisters house, on the other hand, is rather oddly laid out. Bigger home, slab on grade.... The hot water heater is in a mechanical room in the garage... the laundry room is about 10' away, another 15' or so into the kitchen, and the bathrooms are on the opposite side of the house, I'm guessing around 50' of pipe. It literally takes a couple minutes to get hot water to the bathrooms. And being slab-on-grade, you don't get really hot water for several minutes, it looses a lot of heat on the way. It's a nice home, but that part of the design/layout is *horrible* in my opinion.
Some home plans demand longer runs, especially on larger more high-end designs- but I think some attention in the design process up front can be incredibly valuable.
Exactly...the concept i have in mind for a future house is a central utility column/room inside of which all the systems will be routed. All the bathrooms will be on the perimeter of this column and so the runs will be very short and virtually all plumbing, shutoffs, clean outs will be accessible within that column. If there is a leak it will leak into this column and there will be a drain in the bottom. Also resolves most freezing pipe concerns.
While I enjoy the latest technology on this channel, I think the greatest efficiency (and cost savings) comes from building within your means and needs which means smaller and smarter first.
When my dad bought his slab on grade house 50 years ago, he had a circulating pump installed on the hot side, with the utility room and 1/2 bath on the far side, oh, call it 60 feet to the hot water heater, and the kitchen maybe 40' off to the side. Never had to wait long for hot water. But after 35 years he started to get cavitation leaks in the copper pipes. So, a few decades of convenient hit water, and 4 leaks (so far...👀). If you have never had to have a plumber come into your living room and jackhammer a large crater into your slab foundation, several times, then you can take my word for it, it's neither pretty, clean, nor fun. It's a pain in the keister.
Sounds like a second water heater would be a good idea. Maybe a tankless would work?
Very simple smart home solution: I have a recirculation loop pump that is connected via smart outlet. Just pushing a button before i take a shower and water is hot in 15-20 seconds, without actually wasting anything.
If you really want hot water quickly then plumb a single cold water line to each bathroom and just before it gets to the bathroom install a demand water heater. Don't do what Matt did though. His demand water heater was on the outside of the house and in the February freeze this year (2021) the pipes in the heater broke when they froze. Not sure why anyone would put it in a box on the outside of the house, but I'm sure Matt had a reason. In the type of freeze we had, you would have needed generator backup and heat tracing on all the pipe to prevent freezing or you would need to drain the system before going to bed.
"Ten feet of vertical pipe has quite a bit of head." In fact, Mr. Risinger, it has exactly ten feet of head! 😂
haha, true. He probably meant "pressure" and the easy rule of thumb is approximately 1psi for every 2 feet of head.
After many years of doing copper repipe in cali, I installed my first pex system in a single wide here in iowa. ran 3\8 on the hot side of k sink to lav, 1\2 to w.heater. 1\2 dedicated hot line to tub. 3\4 tee on top of w.heater. Cold side is all 3\4. No more ice water challenges when I take a shower. The k sink used to take 2 min to get hot water, now about 30 seconds. Ran a line from ro filter discharge to toilet tank to conserve a little bit of water. Ran almost all ttrough heat duct. This ended having to leave k sink running all night to keep from freezing. It is probably all against code and if county found out I am sure they would order the park to send in the backhoe and knock it down, like they did with the previous 5.
I have tankless system with a recirc loop, went from a gallon and a half to almost instant hot water. I love it, especially not seeing gallons go down the drain.
The downside to the loop is the energy used to pump water and to keep the loop line at temperature (so it should be well insulated). If your home is fully self-sufficient power-wise, that's fine. If not, you need to decide which resource is more valuable.
Just installed a tankless water heater with an integrated circulation pump and our master bath has instant hot all day long. Used to take over a minute to get hot water.
Also.. you are not throwing the former hot water down the drain.
Energy bill wise have you noticed any change?
We have an island sink in the kitchen that took over 5 minutes to start getting hot. 🙄 Put in a recirculating pump with a timer and now I don’t know how the previous owners ever did without one. Cost $300 to have installed. Electric bill was so negligible we didn’t even notice a change.
You need to be mindful about that plastic pipes don't like to be hot 24/7 and your tankless warranty will drop from 15 years to 5 years. Instead you can program your recirculation pump to run for 1-2 hours in the evening and in the morning when you usually need to take a shower...
No because you will burn up the igniter.
My house had a roundabout run of 3/4 copper to the kitchen for hot. Took forever to get hot, and cooled in minutes. First home plumbing job was to install a shortest possible run of insulated 1/2 inch pipe. Full hot in 17 seconds and the insulation kerps it so. I repurposed the 3/4 line to bring cold water to a new garage side outdoor faucet.
I did the "race track" or loop you described 12 years ago. 3/4" copper main with 1/2" stubs to faucets. All insulated except the last 10 feet of the loop that ends at a tee into my HWT drain valve. (HWT outlet check valve removed) No pump, just a horizontal check valve near the HWT drain valve tee. Less than 2 seconds to HOT water on any faucet.
I think that splash accident is also a good example of how much more volume you get. It translates to real life use
Yep. Whether you're filling a kitchen sink or taking a hot shower on a cold day, low flow pipes are really not your friend.
Only if you are lower in elevation from your water source AND if your demand for volume requires it. Otherwise you're working both against gravity and risk mixing your hot slug with the cold in the pipes, slowing hot delivery.
Take one 3/4" insulated hot water supply line to the room, then use a small manifold block to break out all the equipment in that room with 1/2" lines. This lets the whole room benefit if one piece of equipment is running hot water already. You can put this circuit on a bigger manifold block in the basement (as shown) so that you still have complete control, best of both worlds.
but you still have 3/4" * x ft worth of volume of water going down the drain before water is up to temp. which seems more like what he was worried about.
@@giantgizan The available volume makes no difference to the flow rate of a mix valve on any fixture. In other words, fixtures are the bottle neck where you control temp and flow rate. A larger volume of water maintains its temp for longer, and if you run a second fixture you immediately benefit from the first being already on. If you run individual 1/2" lines, you're going to wait for a greater volume of water to heat up between waiting on two. Your point is moot in that scenario. In the end, water is the cheapest utility, and each situation is different. Often, 3/4" main to 1/2" manifold is choice.
Good stuff. I'm still planning manifold but all the bathrooms and kitchen are in roughly the same location so the runs are only 20 feet and if I loop the main branch then it's even better since hot water will be at the manifold when needed.
I,Own A Mobile Home And Was Just Informed That I Can Re-Plumb It With Pex..Your,Videos Are Very Good Thank You For Sharing..
Where does the racetrack connect back in to itself? Am I missing something or is it basically a straight shot from farthest point back to the inlet side of the water heater? Presumably with a check valve? Pressue would be higher on the cold side coming from the street vs through the heater and all the line and then back though so how would that work? Or is there simply a "T" close to the heater?
Would love to see a whole system analysis of energy consumption of this vs. other non-recirculating systems. Keeping a recirculating pump going on a 3/4" line 24/7/365 must use a fair bit of energy, not to mention the heat loss from an uninsulated, always hot line inside your building envelope in a location where you run a lot of air conditioning.
That's a really good point
You want all lines insulated and they have recicurlating system that can be programmed to your water use habits. Say you take a shower around 10 pm every nite, the cicurlating pump cuts in around 9:55 so you have hot water ready to go. The Germans have done a lot of development with this type of system. Shalom
another thing to note...with a thermometer controlled pump, the pump may be "on", but it's only running when it sees a temperature at a set threshold.
You can design a gravity flow system that works on water density so you only have to deal with thermal loss. We used to have to design a hot water system on the Journeyman Plumbing license test. I have installed a couple of dozen gravity systems and they work great. A heat source at each bathroom group would be the highest water/energy saving system.
Taco has a motion activation pump system along with a aquastat and smart plug that learns your usage and times.
Love it! Building my house in Montana and need to get the plumbing right.
Before we built our house I found an article by Gary and we had our plumbers do this system. I want to say my favorite thing is the insulation on the hot water lines. We only have our recirculation pump come on every half hour during the day and the water is super hot all the time. I don't think there's a fixture in our house where we have to wait more than 2 seconds for hot water.
Could you do a combination trunk and branch/manifold system where everything in one room is on the same port on the manifold? That way when you charge your shower with hot. The sinks get hot also?
Yes. More efficient
Here in AZ I’m worried about the cold water. If we have city water we don’t have cold water in the 115-120 degree August, we just have warm and hot water.
Put it thru a chiller, or make your own put a roll of soft copper thru a refrigerator .
I used $2 of natural gas to heat my water in August. Only appliance in my house that is gas is the hot water heater. I mostly used “cold” water.
My grandfather had a similar concern when he moved from a hand pump in the county to municipal water in the city. He drove a closed well pipe into the ground in the basement beneath his bathroom faucet and put a smaller pipe down inside of it passed thru a tee on the top and circulated all the flow to his cold water tap thru it. Basically a geothermal cooled faucet, over 100 years ago, he died probably long before the term geothermal was even thought of.
Perhaps look at burying a loop 5 to 7 feet or so under ground. At that level, the soil temp tends to run close to 55°F no matter where you are. It's basically how geothermal heat pumps work for both heating and cooling.
Same problem. Shower with the faucet all the way on cold and it's still around 100 degree water. On the bright side, the water heater never comes on all summer.
I guess 1.5 and 3 but I'm an aerospace engineer who just replaced my 50' hot water 1/2" copper line with 5' of 3/4" PEX to manifold with one 3/4" in x three 1/2" out running to the kitchen and to the two baths. I didn't actually calculate the volume per foot for 1/2" and 3/4" before making my guess, but hey, go figure! I was excited when I heard what you were doing! A very valuable test so thank you. Switching from copper to PEX and minimizing heat loss as well as the more direct from manifold flow I've made a substantial difference.
Nice! Not heard of a tapped hot water loop like that before. Smart.
I was about to ask about a smart system so people can turn off the recirculation while at work (no sense keeping the loop warm while gone for 10, or in my case 50, hours).
but, I googled first, and it looks like there might be some interesting things on the market, might be an interesting video idea (plus I really want to know what a good option is because I dislike waiting for hot water)
My folks' recirc system is on a clock timer.
Matt Risinger - when you make that video, can you please address what added cost having that race track line add to your heating bill by having it constantly charged/heated?
Not constantly charged. I’m using the Metlund DMand system. It circs with motion then turns off when it’s hot.
@@buildshow still interested to hear more explanation on the physics. Presumably the pex is less well insulated than the hot water heater, and has a greater surface area through which to lose heat. A good example would be how much body heat a person loses when they donate blood platelets even though their plasma is being circulated back into their body. It seems like there would definitely have to be a trade-off in terms of energy use, it would be interesting to break down the math and figure out what that would be per square foot of house.
@@wheatgrowssweet Gives me some consideration, but I still can't reason where much energy would be lost to.
@@averynw9180 it would radiate as heat into the house surrounding the racetrack pipe, which in the winter time would not be a big deal. In the summertime it would make the AC work a little harder. Pex is probably a better insulator than copper by quite a bit, and there is going to be heat loss through your pipes no matter what, but I would just be interested to see what the actual trade-off is with this system versus traditional.
As Matt points out, the recirculation system turns on only when it is sensing motion near a faucet or fixture that uses hot water. So the recirculation isn't running constantly or otherwise you would now have a secondary radiant heat system via your water heater and hot water piping. think motion sensor in the bathroom that turns on the hot water recirculation pump in anticipation of use while in the bathroom. lot less wasteful then an always on system. In fact the always on system is probably more wasteful than running the faucet/shower to wait for hot water in a non-recirculation system
This is awesome Mat, thanks!
Good stuff Matt. I'd like to see a flow comparison between copper, uponor and pex b. Something like a 30 foot run with multiple fittings and 90's. I hear all the time how pex b is more restricted than uponor, yet I still see it everywhere in new construction.
What about a "hybrid" pex manifold trunk and branch system, instead of having each pex line directly to fixture, you run it to a room and branch out to fixtures from there?
Thats what I'm doing in my house right now, should work great.
You could but unless that manifold has its own re-circulation line you'll be waiting just as long.
I am considering a "hybrid" system. Our build is an empty nester home (3 bedroom). It is a long footprint, with the two guest bedrooms on the very end of the home. One recirculating hot water loop to the bathroom for those two guest bedrooms with a motion sensor that starts the recirculating pump when someone enters the bathroom. The rest of the house, which is much closer to the water heater and where my wife and I will live, would be on a second loop that recirculates continuously.
People did this for larger houses with just valves before manifolds were a thing.
@@effervescence5664 The advantage is the hot water waste is limited to a room use. Main bath being a good example. Someone shaves and the shower is now primed. Someone showers and the faucet is now primed for the next person who washes their hands, etc. No recirc necessary, and if the pipe length to the manifold is short enough you can still avoid waste and have the less then 30 seconds to hot..
It would be nice if you did a video of your "structured wiring" set up, dealing with network cabling, coax, and so on.
With mesh wifi. No more coax, network cabling or very little is need now.
@@malibuman8941 as great as current Wifi and home mesh systems have advanced, a proper Cat6 system will still offer a much more RELIABLY fast and stable connection. It all comes down to price and if you are willing to have “good enough” vs “best”
@@zlmdragon. To get the most out of an antenna you pretty much do. Yet another issue of whether you want a good enough system or the best possible system.
@@zlmdragon. Yeah there are quite a few "rules" for running coax. Stay away from high voltage cables and if it has to cross one it has to be perfectly perpindicular. Cut the excess cable and put a new end on, or at least don't coil the excess because it can cause interference, etc. I don't even know most of the rules for antennas that's above my pay grade but I know a guy that is a HAM radio operator that told me those rules for coax and that's just the basic stuff.
@@zlmdragon. I agree about the screen quality, but according to my HAM guy you have the potential to pull more channels when setting up the TV if everything is done ideally. I live out in the country where we have to worry about reception though, we only have 3-5 channels here depending on how good your antenna location is. In the city I'm sure it wouldn't matter.
My house is weird, the shower is farther away from the water heater, twice the distance, compared to the kitchen sink. Both are 1/2". But I wait 10 to 15 seconds at the shower for hot and 45 seconds to a minute at the sink. Hydraulic mechanic for almost 30 years and I understand restrictions at the faucet as compared to the shower head, but filling a container at each and timing it shows miniscule differences. At any rate, I'll be redoing the plumbing with PEX soon and I have a simple trunk and branch layout planned with increases in supply size (trunk) that in the end I'm positive I'll be pleased with. Your videos are a great help, covering things I may not consider or know about.
Under size the hot system slightly...you'll be glad you did. Pex lasts forever. 40 yrs experience, Union, Master plumber. Pex is pretty cheap. Run a dedicated hot line from your water heater to your shower..... and another to the kitchen sink. Takes 15 more minutes to install.....big deal!
thanks for sharing the info
@Matt, do you insulate the cold water line aswell? To prevent condensation, or is that not a problem when the line is inside a wall?
I would think if you are protecting other cold surfaces from condensation, that would be a good idea. It's a lot cheaper to install it and realise you didn't really need it, than to not install it and discover you did!
Not required in the Florida heat. Cold water is really luke warm. But if you have a well up north and even in GA you need to insulate cold pipes as well, also run hot water in your toilets. Keeps the tanks from sweating. You don't usually flush until the water comes out hot unless your toilet valve leaks. Or the tank leaks into the bowl.
I hear you talking, about the water that's been saved by using a hot water circulation system. But I never hear you mention the heatlosses from the hotwater circulating through these pipes. The environmental impact from those heatlosses might be more than from the water you saved..... I would like a calculation from both! And if you don't want to do that, it would have been wortwhile to mention it at least...
Water is going to be more and more expensive depending on where you are in the country. San Antonie was/is fighting the city of Houston over water rights to Lake Houston and would be willing to run a pipeline across the state to get it.
He is using the heat pump for hot water so reheating cost will be very low.
The whole circulation line gets insulated. I installed a recirc system in my 1200 sq ft house and my gas bill went up $1-2 per month.
Insulate the pipes, get the circ pump that has a timer or temp sensor that only runs when water gets below a certain temp.
Good point.
@@jameskitzmann6268
You've missed the point.
I plumbed probably a few hundred houses in Texas and that race track system with Uponor racetrack system with a recirc pump. We insulated all the hot water lines to help conserve the heat. That type of PEX is the best in my opinion.
I noticed the Sanden water tank near the end of the video. Please do a video covering the Sanden SanCO2 system. I am not affileate with Sanden but after significant research I chose the SanCO2 system for my home. Having the heatpump unit outdoors is preferred in coastal climates where cooling is rarely needed. Thank you.
if you're recirculating the water to keep it hot, how much energy are you using to re-heat the water constantly?
And this is why tankless is (arguably) better than a tank.
Great question! I have always wondered this as well. Although, I bet if your lines are insulated it might be pretty minimal.
I added retrofit recirc to after we move in and none of the pipes have insulation. recirc on timer 7am to 9pm and gas bill doubled. (pump was fitted for half the billing period).
Added insulation to hot pipes and bill went down about a quarter. Now, I have the pump on custom smart switch and it would run for 10min every time I turn it on and we would do that before some time before shower (or whenever we want). water get hot very quick and the difference for gas usage is about the same as before fitting the pump.
Yep, and why its not a good idea in a residential setting. Its necessary in commercial because of large diameter pipes and long runs. What's the longest run you're going to do in a residential installation? Not worth it. Your best bet is to just insulate the lines well so that they don't cool so fast.
@@rbnhd1976 That's fair, but unless you have a tankless right beside your shower, you are not going to have much benefit when it comes to wait times, and depending on your set up, they are not any more efficient than regular tanks.
I pexed my house out 3 yrs, ago with the manifold system. I love it and would do it again if I ever have to do it again. Being able to turn off a toilet and have the rest of the house still able to function has already proven useful. It's America do what you want.
Hi Matt. I have a pickle for you. Open concept main floors take all the sensory inputs from the multiple purposes in the space and combines them into a cacophony. I'd love to see you create a sensory friendly concept that contains and mitigates sensory input. You could even do something fancy with the HVAC system to keep noise from shared spaces out of the bedrooms. I know you have done some soundproofing work, but its effectiveness will be limited by the surfaces used, square feet left open, number of tasks in a space, and lack of standard sound mitigation in walls between shared and private rooms. Solving the daily sensory overload at home would change the lives of many people like me. Thank you!
This is brilliant. 🙌
Thx!
Been thinking for a while. Would it be possible to use a hot water circulation system as heating in a passivhaus?
I've been in condominiums that use that method.
Heat source can be the same, but your boiler/heater must have separate loops for hw supply and radiant heat.
Sanden with a special Taco pump ($1500) can deal with DHW and radiant.
It's called an Aqua therm system.
Using the main flaw of a circulation system as a benefit, I like it.
It's not hard to calculate the heat loss from such a system. If that exceeds the worst case heating need your architect calculated, then you're golden.
I've build passive houses that need little more then the heat generated by the humans in it. So I wouldn't be surprised if this and the energy reclaimed from the (cooking) ventilation will suffice in many cases.
Now I know why all the bathrooms in my house are literally lined up on top of one another. And why the master bath and secondary bath is next to each other.
that probably has more to do with efficient DWV system and the ease of plumbing when all the work is aligned vertically. of course it helps the hot water delivery too
All my plumping is right together in my place, too. Was built to be a rental, so I can see why they went the least expensive route. Still a nice place.
wise guy, if I asked a 7th grader to build a simple water piping on paper using crayons, we can all assume the drawing will be same logic how plumbing is built today by professionals.
I repiped my house. I am not a plumber but a DIYer. But I had some plumbers support me throughout this projec. I had poly b pipes and switched to pex. I used a remote manifold system. Ran 3/4 pipe, had a copper manifold and branched off to 1/2" for my fixtures. Each manifold had shut off for both hot and cold lines. If I have an issue with one of my lines, depending where the issue is, I can shut that section off and beyond. So if I got water leaking in the basement from the hot line, I can go to one zone behind the bathroom and shut that line off. If any repairs needs to be done on a fixture, I can shut off the hot or cold to that fixture. It did cost a bit with the ball valves. In addition, to reduce the waiting time for hot water, I installed a water recirculation pump on my water heater. The only thing I am not too proud of is that my pipes run in the attic. But in the winter time, I can set my pump to run overnight to prevent freezing of the pipes.
My new house instant hot water works great. I used a 3/4” PEX insulated trunk that loops as close as possible to each fixture with 1/2” twigs as short as possible. The kitchen sink is 1st off the loop then the master bath, with the cloths washing machine last. The 3/4” loop returns back to the Indirect gas boiler heated hot water tank. At the tank a low power Grundfos SS pump provides the recirculation loop flow. The pump is turned on/off under control of an Inkbird thermostat that keeps the return water at 120*F +- 2*F
An idea. What about have valve that open when a set temperature is reached. Before that all the water is returned back to the boiler ?
Or maybe have a motion sensor that turn on a pump when people enter the bathroom. The pump send all the water in the pipes back to the boiler until a set temperature is reached.
Well you dont want to de-pressurize the pipes if you dont have to, but I like the valve idea
That is a thing in independently pressurized systems. You open the valve which lets the water flow through a bipass back to a tank or reservoir and when hot water reaches the thermostat at the faucet it switches to the outlet and the user. You wait the same time as usual but no water is wasted.
These are used in RV's. They call them water-miser. Don't know why it wouldn't work in a house?
@@caseysanguins9490 Even more so on expensive boats, especially sailing cruisers. The issue most designers have is the constant pressure working back against you. In a boat or an RV you have an enclosed system but with a house you are connected to a pressurized pipe that comes from somewhere else so you have to account for the pressurized pipe coming in and the fact that it is not an enclosed system. This can be done much the same way main water supplies were brought into homes in England in past decades or similar to the way a toilet bowl refills itself from the tank when there is a need for water but doesn't suffer a constant pressure because the fill valve cuts its off. Systems like that are well-suited for homes that are off grid or ones you see in Latin America that use a cistern for their water supply and that cistern and acts as a reservoir and makes the system enclosed except for the periodic interjection of rainwater to top it off.
Hot water recic pump no wait for hot water. Its fantastic 👏
So that pump just turns on and off all the time keeping that water hot?
@@danielbuckner2167 we had ours on a timer. 6-8am and 5-8pm. Hot water during demand times.
@@joelpage4165 oh youre never home in the day or up earlier or later? Huh, ok. I guess that works for that sort of existence.
@@danielbuckner2167 I have a watts recirculation pump. I set mine in the winter to run every hour or so overnight to prevent freezing. Because my pipes also run in my attic. Since we have tenants, j try to find some time in the day to set the timer and have the pump run. The water doest get cold fast when it's just sitting in the pipes. I noticed it still keeps warm for an hour or so depending what time of the year it is and if there is even an call for hot water.
Well done as always
My plumber just did two houses for me with a Navien tankless heater with a 2 gallon reserve tank and integrated recirc pump. The house can sit for days w/o demand and any faucet in the house will produce hot water between 3 -6 seconds. I'm totally sold on hot water recirc. Wish I had it in my own house!
I'd like to see a system that features return piping and how that works.
Yeah. What's the difference between a "racetrack" and a return line with a recirculating pump? Does the racetrack somehow not have a recirculating pump?
Update: I figured out the difference. You can run a loop on the hot water supply two ways:
A "closed loop" uses a dedicated return line: hot water exits the heater, makes a loop to get close to all of the fixtures, and then returns to the heater. A pump is run somewhere along the loop in order to keep the loop charged with hot water so that the fixtures are only a few feet of narrow pipe away from hot water at any moment. I think this is what Matt meant by "racetrack".
An "open loop" can be retrofit into many systems: hot water exits the heater, then travels through a main trunk with branches to feed each fixture. In this approach, you "cheat" by putting a recirculation pump at the furthest fixture, and it pumps water from the hot line back into the cold line. Cold water then flows backwards all the up the cold water supply trunk and eventually into the cold water supply of the hot water heater. The cold is a part-time return line. The pump can be controlled by various methods to ensure that the main trunk is charged with hot water on demand. It cannot run continuously otherwise it would turn the cold water into always-warm water.
It seems to me that the best solution to this problem is to just design your house in the first place so that your hot water fixtures are all grouped very close to each other, and also very close to the hot water source. This way it doesn't matter how you plumb, because every fixture will always be within a few seconds of hot water. If you can't manage that, then run a closed loop with a thermostatically or demand controlled pump.
Why not have a Main manifold that feeds local manifolds, in the bath room zone, and now hot water would be the bathroom zone manifold and when the next faucet is turned on, its the short length to flush to hot. thoughts?
Maybe costs?
a small Rheem tank for a vanity washbasin or two is what we recently added - its great. We should have done it back in 2007 when we moved in.
This system makes a lot of sense. I did a trunk and branch at my house with 3/4 everywhere to minimize pressure drop. I'm not on city water and I don't have a well pump though, I'm getting around 80ft of head from a pond above my property and get 24psi or so. I know it's unconventional but everything works fine I just have to make sure I don't use any "water saver" fixtures and it takes a while to get hot water but we still have hot water to anywhere in the house in two minutes. Thousands of gallons of free water and no pump to worry about.
This was more a demonstration of how much more suited to precise measurement metric is than imperial.
It would be way simple (and less messy) to calculate how much you get in the pipe instead of out :P
I set up a circulating pump. Works great
when you talked about the delivery to the master bath that could be fixed just by putting a tee in the 1/2 line before the vanity. a 1/2 line can supply both vanites
im here from off the ranch the abandon mansion series- i had some questions regarding propane hot water tanks-
Ask some questions.
lol forgot to ask lol i have a park model camper trailer with addition. we need a hot water tank because i added a washer dryer to trailer. buying a 40 gallon propane hot water heater is the same price as a tankless hot water heater. i did do some research but wanted an opinion of some one more into building homes. all i have is dishwasher, kitchen sink, bathroom sink, shower, and a washer. what would be your opinion on which would be more useful and do you have a video on it?
@@alwayshungry24 I would be curious as to the quality, reliability, and performance of a tankless WH that is the same price as a 40gal WH. Price needs to also reflect cost of venting and installation. I only install condensing tankless WH's. Only heat water when you need it. Depending on the brand and model, you want to make sure the BTU rating will raise the temp of your incoming water to the desired temp at however many gallons/min you anticipate requiring. What is the BTU rating of the tankless WH you are looking at?
@@alwayshungry24 A 120,000BTU WH should produce enough hot water if you are taking a shower while the dishwasher and washer are going simultaneously.
@@mcintosh.daughter 6gpm at 150000 btu by rinnai sold at lowes for about $800
Even with a manifold system you can still split to two sinks in basically the same location Maybe you would want separate line for shower
Yeah there is easy math formulas for the beginning. I know it’s only for demonstration purposes...you the man matt!
Two other down sides to PEX is 1) Rats and mice gnawing through the plastic line! Make sure there are no entry points for these varmints. 2) each run of PEX to a fixture requires drilling holes in the framing. It can be quite destructive if there is no chase designed into the framing layout. I'm with you Matt, a trunk system of copper is better in many ways.
I like the manifolds for reduced liability. Fewer possible points for a leak
Lol uhhhh no not reduced liability at all. They are garbage
Looks pretty but lots of potential for leaks. High cost. Might be useful for very large Mansions but not for normal size homes of around 1700 sq feet.
Or more pipes to hit
Would like to know what costs more....the water wasted waiting for hot water or the NG/Elec. used heating water continously in a closed loop? Pretty sure water is cheaper.
Raceway concept with recirc pump👍... As a builder in the PAC-NW where septic systems reign, water conservation is word!
For my house I put in two PEX manifolds. Manifold for 1st floor is in the basement, manifold for 2nd floor is in closet on 2nd floor inline directly above 1st manifold. I have 3/4" supply into & out of the 1st manifold into the 2nd manifold, then recirc pulled out of 2nd manifold back to hot water storage tank. That's my primary loop, it is always hot & leaves only the short 1/2" pipe feed to each fixture or that 1-1/2 cup waste at each fixture. Always have hot water within 3-5 seconds at the faucet or shower. Seems to be similar output to the loop system. Note: recirc pump controlled aqua-stat.
Could of done the same test at the beginning with a pen and paper and a bit of math.
But then you lose the entertainment value. My 9th grade science teacher blew up a water jug in class to demonstrate proper air/fuel mixture. It was much more engaging than him just writing on the board.
Math doesn't translate well to video
When you talk about the wait, i start thinking first world problems... The waste part of it is also a first world problem, but a much more important one
I know, i have lived in places where you put a big pot on and waited for hot water to bathe. One minute to get hot water out of a pipe... on demand... inside your home... without heating it up first? Yeah, how terrible and tragic
Is it really waste if it is recycled and reused?
@@FJB2020 like a gray water system for watering your plants?
@@ColeSpolaric You could, but waste water is sent to treatment or if you are on septic it returns to the earth.. Not really a waste..
@@FJB2020 waste in the terms of it was treated once and now needs to be treated again before being returned, and treated again before becoming potable water. I worked as a contractor at the Chicago water purification plant. It is not a simple process.
I use point of use heaters at each fixture , always hot !
I plumbed the house with a main manifold and then two 3/4" inch lines to a sub manifold in the upstairs bathroom manifold - works like a charm.