Jehovah's Witness's Torture Stake Disproved
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- Опубликовано: 3 окт 2024
- #Exjw #apologetics #bible
Chicken Scratch Apologetics, this will focus on the JW belief that Jesus died on a torture stake rather than a cross. Is there any evidence for this torture stake...Spoiler alert...no.
Recently left the borg but I had always felt it was odd we believed it had to be a stake. When i looked into myself i had came to the conclusion it could be either cross or stake and i was confused as to why we had gotten so focused on it not being a cross. Now i realize it's just another tactic us vs them mindset.
borg LOL😄😄😄
I was baptized Roman Catholic at birth. My mom converted to JWs when I was around 6. I left at 16 to “see the world”. As one who studied the Bible my entire life, the cross issue is just one of their interpretations I questioned early on. At 55 I know in my heart I was lied to about several things. They have a true desire to stand out, differentiate from traditional Christianity and I believe that desire has led to massive mistakes and misunderstandings of Gods Word. Ultimately, they’re a sect of the Adventist Millerite movement of the mid 1850s. Ellen White, Charles Taze Russell came from the same cloth. I appreciate folks committed to learning truth, I just don’t think they have it. To many gross errors over the years.
It does not say his arms were stretched out
@@Scott48-w9i What does it say, Scott?
@@jeffreypaulross9767 it says he was hanged on a tree
@@Scott48-w9i With a noose? 😂
@@jeffreypaulross9767 Yes
Another thing that convinced me that Jesus died on a cross and not a stake was the length of time it took to die on each. The Guardian did an article on this. On an upright pole with arms straight above the victim, death came in 10 to 30 minutes, because it would be impossible to breathe under those conditions. Death on a cross could take up to 24 hours, which is why sometimes the legs of the criminal were broken to hasten their death. Jesus spent 6 hours on the cross.
It does say pole in the NIV a pole a singular one pole
@@Scott48-m7e In reality, it could have been either an upright pole or a cross. Either way, the JW's make such a huge issue out of it. The main point is that Jesus gave his precious life blood for us, so our sins can be forgiven.
@@eyeswideopen8570 if the cross is satanic it really matters
@@eyeswideopen8570 Galatians 3:13 NIV a pole
@@Scott48-m7e lol, the cross is not Satanic. Cult propaganda at best.
They quote a book “A history of the ancient near East” countless times to try and prove their 607 date for the fall of Jerusalem. So I bought the book. Every single time it’s “quoted” they lie about the date published by 20 years after the year 560 and for the next 200 years. They also misquote the author many times. It’s great to see they’ve done it here too! Thanks!
Rodger K. Young says it’s 587 BC.
@@jeffreypaulross9767 because if was lol
The only reason JW leaders make such a big deal about the cross,and other things,is entirely about branding ™️. It’s all about creating their own distinctive brand of Christianity, JW’s ™️
spot on! fantastic video! couldn't have said it better myself. Very well done. I came to the same conclusions with the help of the Holy Spirit after accepting Christ after a lifetime raised in the organization.
wow Andy! Praise the Lord! I seriously rejoice to see your comment... I was just sitting here, considering the JWs the Lord has handed me over the years, wondering if they made it out, wondering if, with the advent of searchable and canned apologetics on the JW webpage, any of the points we Christians raise over time ever penetrate, is it was even possible for a JW to see beyond the cliffs of their entrapment within the org. It is encouraging to see YOUR comment as evidence that even with an edited bible, canned replies to all the truth we may bring them, the truth is still visible to a JW and that you found The Truth and The Lord set you free once you receive it! I pray for the release of ALL the precious JWs I have encountered including Tiffany and Stacy, in Jesus' name.
I was raised a JW, and always thought if the case against the cross is such a slam dunk, then why does historians depict the romans executing criminals on the cross? Then I did a little bit of research and found out I was being lied to.
@@scottgrey2877 what are you talking about?
@@jordancannady9242 tree singular not two trees put together
@@scottgrey2877 oh.
@@scottgrey2877your like a broken record bro
Yes, there are things they’ve found from Roman antiquity that describe capital punishment as a pole with a crossbeam.
Loved your video. I came across a bit of trivia that further demonstrates that a cross was used not a stake. In Pompeii and Herculaneum which were frozen in time by volcanic ash in August 69 AD. Archeological digs have uncovered unmistakable evidence of Christian crosses left by dying Romans and their Jewish slaves in numerous homes. (Secrets of Christianity Season 1 Episode 3)
Many thanks for your video,
Cheers
Mick
Rome would sacrifice their victims by placing them on a pointed pole with the point up their rectum. The weight of their body would eventually pierce them up through their mouth. Rome had many different ways they tortured their victims but the bible states that Jesus Christ was hung on an upright stake not a symbol of Tammuz
Even the graffiti ridiculing Christ, it shows a cross! The graffiti shows a donkey, but the words say how hated they found the followers of Christ.
🎯👍🏽👍🏽
The JWS leaders were never academically trained bible theologians, they essentially were novices who happened to run and operate their own publishing house The Watchtower.
The fact that they created false doctrines such as date setting of Christ's return (Pyramidology) says that they were apostate charlatans $$$ as well.
There are archeological findings in drawings that support the two piece cross.
The JWS denouncing of the cross was also about the use of the cross as an image which is supposed to be a pagan sin written about in the bible, where god's chosen ones were not to worship graven images .
Jesus hanged on a tree singular
In 1952, Dr. Walter Martin, full professor of comparative religions, sued the watchtower bible and tract society for fraud, in Brooklyn NY.
The watchtower said that they had their own Greek and Hebrew scholars, so Martin’s attorney demanded that they produce THEM in court.
They could only produce ONE, and boy was he ever a sorry excuse for a Bible translator! 😂 Upon cross examination, Martin’s attorney gave the guy a portion of Hebrew text from the Old Testament. The guy immediately started back pedaling saying, “I can read Hebrew, but I can’t speak it.” That guy was one of the people that supposedly “translated” the New World Translation. 😂😂😂 You can’t make this stuff up folks! 😂😂😂
@@scottgrey2877 Prove it?
See if you can find the transcripts from a trial from Brooklyn NY in 1952, where Dr. Walter Martin sued the watchtower for fraud AND WON!
I think the Christian Research Institute (CRI) might have them.
Billjones ... remind you that also Jesus wat not a academically trained bible theologian. The scribes and Pharisees also despised him because he taught a doctrine different from their own. They taught traditions and not what scripture taught and finally persecuted and killed him ...
I enjoyed this video so much!! Thank you
One other biblical text I have seen used is John 21:18,19
18 Most assuredly, I say to you, when you were younger, you girded yourself and walked where you wished; but when you are old, you will stretch out your hands, and another will gird you and carry you where you do not wish.” 19 This He spoke, signifying by what death he would glorify God. And when He had spoken this, He said to him, “Follow Me.”
In verse 18 Jesus mentions "stretch out your hands" and in verse 19 the writer explains that Jesus was "signifying by what death he would glorify God"
Peter lost his independence not crucified
@@scottgrey2877 Not sure what your point is?? Peter was crucified upside down , when he was martyred he felt unworthy to die the same death as Jusus
@@kevinjackson2361 Does not say that in scripture only that he was led to his death by force
Good point. What really matters is why Jesus Christ died on the cross, rather than the torture stake. The Watchtower Society/Jehovah's Witnesses fail to see the context of the His crucifixion.
And another thing about Watchtower Witnesses (they obey the Watchtower, not Jehovah. They are afraid of displeasing their leaders, not the Holy God or contradicting the Bible!) The cross is a T, either capital T or the cross. The Romans didnt invent this form of killing. It wasn't mere torture, it was torture and execution! It was a method for hundreds of years before the Roman Empire. For thousand years after the fall of Rome, the Japanese also used crucifixion. They all used the cross, not a stake.
Load of nonsense
Hey brother I was wondering when you were going to make another video. As always I love all your videos man.
Thanks! Been a crazy 2 weeks, but I'm back :)
@@LightoverDarkMinistry I understand my week has been going crazy too, Especially worrying about our car, the timing chain is off a little bit in the engine so we’re gonna have to get that fixed in the next couple weeks. Glad to have you back brother.
@@jeremiahrowesr.3130 Did it cross your mind how much it will cost to fix the engine timing? I hope you don't get cross when you see the bill. Take care when you cross the road in your car.
@@spellbound111 Yeah we took it to a mechanic and they said it’s time to get a new car I was kind of hoping that they were not wanting to say that but I kind of knew it was coming
This made sense, especially when Jesus being on the cross had a sign above his head instead of a sign above his hands ( Matthew 27:37).
I know right! because if it was a stake it couldn't have gone any higher than his arms would stretch!!!
@@usethis2mail if both hands are up side by side and you have a sign above it and above the head, it is still above the head
@@Mr.DC3.1914 My comment was sarcasm
a sign could have easily been posted over his head, pasted to the pole tree stump trunk or post, they executioners did not try to delay there death, after a period of time the Roman soldiers would check on the execution's and if still alive would brake there legs, to speed up death, simple tied around the pole (stauros) one nail was hammered through Jesus hands, one hand over the other hand, above his head and his foot over his other foot in front of him and nailed, with one other nail nothing complicated about that
You don't have to be on a cross to have a sign hanging above your head, how are most signs posted? on a pole, not a cross, my dog Otis is missing please call (0000000) if found please call this number, its posted, usually on a telephone pole or a sign, not on a cross
You totally made my day making this video. I finally understand their doctrine thanks to you.
And now you have made my day!
The serpent when idolized was destroyed so is the same when the CROSS is idolized - 2 kings 18:4 - He was the one who removed the high places,+ smashed the sacred pillars, and cut down the sacred pole.*+ He also crushed the copper serpent that Moses had made;+ for down to that time the people of Israel had been making sacrificial smoke to it and it used to be called the copper serpent-idol.*
@@Mr.DC3.1914 i do not worship the cross I worship the Lord Jesus whom hang on it and died and rose on the 3rd day.
@@lionegberts Great if you do not worship it, but if people started worshipping it in your church, what was done to objects that were made as idols?
@@Mr.DC3.1914 I've never known of, or even heard of anyone worshiping a cross. However, the Watchtower claims that their members worship them. Imagine, worshiping a publishing company!! How hilarious is that??!!
w61 9/1 pp. 521-526Hold Your Position: "If one renders obedient service to someone or some organization, whether willingly or under compulsion, looking up to such as possessing a position of superior rulership and great authority, then that one can Scripturally be said to be a worshiper."
Good vid. A telephone pole has a cross member at the top and we don't call them telephone crosses.
There are watchtower drawings that show Jesus carrying a telephone pole, not kidding. It must've weighed 2000 lbs.
I'm loving these awesome videosssss
They admitted to not even having anyone who knew Aramaic at all... they lied again! What a surprise!
Who'd have thunk!? Hmm! 🤔
@Therese Fournier
The WTS best known as the Warlocks Tower of Sins are a club of 8 old males of professional standard of liers.
They took either the Rheims Duay or the KJV, took out words and replaced them with words which distort the original message or meaning or integrity of the scriptures to justify calling themselves Jehovahs Witnesses.
The WTS must now be seen as an agent of the devil.
They had Rolf furul. With great knowledge, but now hi is disfellowshipeed .
This group mislead lots of people,
They call them: the great crowd.
@@freemanparasiempre136
His knowledge, although not accredited with degrees in that ancient language, didn't prevent him from being booted out ??
Typical controll of percieved dissidents as they are seen as a threat to the powerful 8 members if the G. B.
@@freemanparasiempre136 Yes, they still are deceiving 8,000,000 but the way they lie about all else, the real number could only be closer to 800,000, which wouldn't surprise me, one bit!
The word for stake NOT Aramaic
So to JW'S a stake isn't pagan since pagans used them.
Very good point! They have been taught to hate the cross.
Philippians 3:18
King James Version
18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:
Also, I've never heard anyone point out that Jesus was made to carry the crossbeam. Which would have been about 50 lbs. They wouldn't have tried to make him carry the upright "stake" which would have been impossible for anyone to carry.
Nice breakdown! While escaping The Borganizaion, I realized that the shape of the cross really didn't matter. It's just a way for the JWs to show how they are different and have "The Truth". BTW, what did the goose say to the Egyptian priest? "Ankh Ankh"
😂
@@LightoverDarkMinistry the first three gospels say nothing about nails Thomas does not say Jesus feet were nailed John 19 says his side was pierced but does not say his hands and feet were nailed
@@Scott48-w9i meaning what? It says they crucified him, and by history we know how crucification was preformed. Also psalm 22:16, a messianic prophecy says that they pierced his hands and feet.
@@LightoverDarkMinistry Does not say his feet were nailed in the gospels
@@Scott48-w9i No. does that mean they weren’t because it isn’t mentioned in the gospel? Did Jesus have a big toe? Gospels don’t speak about him having all ten toes, so should I assume such? Point is, we know crucifixion was a historical fact, and that a nail went into the ankle bone of the victim. It’s logical to assume Christ feet were pierced especially given the prophecy. So if they weren’t, and just his hands were pierced, you’re now claiming the prophecy wasn’t accurate. So here’s a question, was the messianic prophecy accurate, or did it speak of an event “the piercing of his feet” which didn’t happen.
Good job on the plurality of “nails” .
All those old quotes arround 1900 watchtower uses... So why didn't Chuck Russell figure that out, why did it take so long for God's organization to get it? The reason is, like holidays and birthdays and voting and military etc the JWs in the 30s and 40s wanted to be as different as possible from their origins, and the other churches. That's it, it was a business model, not a search for truth.
The serpent when idolized was destroyed so is the same when the CROSS is idolized - 2 kings 18:4 - He was the one who removed the high places,+ smashed the sacred pillars, and cut down the sacred pole.*+ He also crushed the copper serpent that Moses had made;+ for down to that time the people of Israel had been making sacrificial smoke to it and it used to be called the copper serpent-idol.*
@@dirkfirkle73 and yet you see people praying to it, kneeling, kissing , touching the cross for healing, and giving the sign of the cross. That is a form of worship.
@@dirkfirkle73 When you KNEEL and pray, are you facing toward the Cross? You should not even BOW DOWN to it
Se e come dici tu allora perche Geova fece fare un asta con il serpente di rame e chiunque lo guardava viveva ,cosa hanno cambiato nel corso del tempo e cosa ci hanno nascosto dove sta la verita ,eppure Geova dice IO SONO SEMPRE LO STESSO . Il serpende lo distrussero gli uomini non Dio ma e Dio che comando a Mose di farlo ,DA L'ITALIA
I have never seen anyone worship wood. In my church we have a cross but no one bows to it. We know it isn't GOD. Don't tell the Jehovah's Witnesses. They won't believe it.
You're a legend 😂❤❤ funny but informative
cross, is mentioned in the catholic Bible, in the old testament First book, Genesis. It was in a dream yes, a vision. Also the results are this, ie quote, 18 Joseph answered: This is the interpretation of the dream: The three baskets are yet three days: 19 After which Pharao will take thy head from thee, and hang thee on a cross, and the birds shall tear thy flesh. 3 days i will rebuild the temple He said. Jesus. Would you like the Latin word for it? For this is from way backj before, 31 ad, it is all the way back to the very first book. In a dream. And it speaks of the head of the church yes,
Another great explanation. I'm loving these videos. Don't ever let the nay-sayers get to you. When you are doing an exemplary job, some people come after you with pure anger and vitriol. BTW I have just finished reading Tactics by Greg Koukl. Essential reading for us apologists. God Bless you for all your hard work.
The serpent when idolized was destroyed so is the same when the CROSS is idolized - 2 kings 18:4 - He was the one who removed the high places,+ smashed the sacred pillars, and cut down the sacred pole.*+ He also crushed the copper serpent that Moses had made;+ for down to that time the people of Israel had been making sacrificial smoke to it and it used to be called the copper serpent-idol.*
@Geoffrey Campbell Gday Geoffrey, all I can advise is to consult a bible dictionary like Anchor or even Encyclopaedia Britannica. The JWs have no biblically accredited personnel on their staff. They have no Hebrew or Greek translators or scholars. They misquote Scholars all the time ie Dr Julius Mantey who threatened Legal action. They had to make a retraction. The Translators of the NWT bible are anonymous. I have been dealing with their misrepresentations since 1983 and have seen many lives broken. This is not an attack on the individual JW, I love them dearly , but the organisation is very secretive and this should make people wary when in their own translation, nobody knows who wrote it. Nobody. Warm Regards and I hope this helped.
@Geoffrey Campbell Great News Geoffrey, thank you for being a good ambassador for the Gospel.
@Geoffrey Campbell THE BIBLE teaches that Jesus was MADE As Lord and Christ and as Son (ACTS 2:36, Prov 8, HEB 1:5), CREATED/PRODUCED/INSTALLED (Prov 8) , COME INTO BEING/MADE (Mat 21:42 - egeneto) and GIVEN LIFE by the Father - John 5:26 and it uses TODAY (Heb 1:5), and uses future tenses and is a prophecy in Isa 9:6 (Isa 9:6, - WILL BE) . If you are called MADE AND CREATED AND GIVEN LIFE, and NEVER CALLED in the BIBLE as Creator or Maker , then you are A CREATION. ALL FROM THE BIBLE
From the Lord was this (this is referring to the chief cornerstone who is Jesus) , the word WAS is egeneto (made or came into being) - Matthew 21:42 and the exact Greek word used in John 1:3 - MADE, egeneto (came into being) - JESUS WAS MADE/CAME INTO BEING FROM THE FATHER , yes, Jesus was MADE/CREATED!, See also Acts 2:36, Heb 1:5, 1 john 5
Isa 9:6 the word Prince in the Prince of Peace means PATRON ANGEL also Leader. WHO IS the ONE LEADER that we have? Jesus. Now, that same exact Hebrew word was used for Daniel 12:1 which is used for Michael the Archangel. So are you saying there are MANY LEADERS now?
@Geoffrey Campbell Jesus was called MADE as Lord and CHrist and as SON. COME INTO BEING (Mat 21:42) , CREATED/INSTALLED/PRODUCED as Wisdom of GOD in Prov 8 and GIVEN LIFE by the Father - John 5:26
I've read many accounts saying that the upright pole was left in the ground permanently. That makes sense to me. Why remove it? The victim was nailed or tied to a cross beam, which could also be called a stauros, which then could be hoisted up and attached in one of many ways to the vertical pole. If Jesus was nailed to a tree then what did he carry to the tree? He didn't carry the tree.
Simon did not literally bare his cross
@@Scott48-w9i what are you replying to?
@@wfqsfg that Jesus was not nailed to a cross
@@wfqsfg Luke 14:27 KJV
It's a historic fact that the Romans crucified people on croses before christ was born ,read about Sparticus and the great slave revolt put down by crassus.
The JW Jesus on a stake cannot even fit the crown of thorns let alone his 3 stripes on his body. They are just short of saying Jesus did not exist
as the Imperial Dictionary mentions about staUROS - The Greek word for cross σταυρός properly signified a stake, an upright pole, or piece of paling, on which anything might be hung, or which might be used in impaling a piece of ground. But a modification was introduced as the dominion and usages of Rome extended themselves through Greek-speaking countries. Even amongst the Romans the crux (from which our cross is derived) appears to have been originally an upright pole, and this always remained the more prominent part. nOTICE IT SAYS a MODIFICATION was introduced , PUTTING the cross beam was A MODIFICATION, so the question is for Numb 21:8 to be fulfilled , should it use the MODIFIED version of stauros or the ORIGINAL meaning of stauros? FOR THE PROPHECY to be fulfilled it should use THE ORIGINAL VERSION OF STAUROS.
your a lier
Everything about Jesus, the JWs attack, that's how I know they're an antichrist religion. They attack is deity, the way he died and even claim he didn't rise bodily from the grave. And let's not forget they teach he has returned invisibly in 1919. They teach another Jesus and another gospel, just as we as Christians were warned about
@@Mr.DC3.1914 the Greek text doesn't signify a stake.
@@Episcopalianacolyte The word xulon used for Jesus in Galatians 3:13 is a singular noun and not plural nouns (plural for cross) and it also means a trunk of a tree. If there are two trunks, it should be plural. You think Jesus carried two trunks of a tree for where he was nailed?
Ex-JW another link broken. Thank you! 🙏
“Xelon” - I believe that this is to be pronounced “Zelon” having common roots with the modern words xylophones, xylem and xylene. Otherwise, good analysis.
You are guaranteed 3 things with my content, correct biblical exegesis, barely legible drawling, and mispronouncing most of Greek and English.
@@LightoverDarkMinistry 1 out of 3?
@@LightoverDarkMinistry If you really want to know the truth as to what most bible comentators think then see...ruclips.net/video/9QNYRLIv83w/видео.html
I can't be sure of Ancient Greek pronunciation, but in modern and ecclesiastical (church) Greek, Xelon is pronounced "Ksillon" and still means Wood. (widely used in threats of violence) 😂😂😂
So succinctly put. Thankyou! 😊
Excellent breakdown x thankyou
JESUS most likely carried a cross beam.
The original stake that they used was stationery.
It was kept in the dirt or ground for more than one torture killing.
They didn't take it down after every killing.
Proof of this is that Jesus was taken down off the cross,not that the stake or beam was taken down.
The stake was very tall because they wanted everyone to be in fear as they looked upon it.
So it was high up in the air.
So in order for them to get the victim up there they used a cross beam.
They nailed the hands separately) to the beam and then two soldiers each picked up one side each of the cross beam in order to hoist up the victim.
Therefore the crossbeam ( which Jesus carried) was nailed to the long upright stake.
Therefore it made the shape of the cross.
This information came from a Jewish Historian who studied Roman executions.
Anyway it makes logical sense that the beams ( stakes) were kept in the ground ready for the next victim.
They did not take them down after each crucifixion.
So the two beams formed a ✝️
Also an upright pole strong enough to support the weight of an adult male, tall enough to have him suspended off the ground, with plenty of room for a sign over his head, and of course an extra length of about 4 feet to go into the ground to be properly supported, would need to be, at a minimum, 10"x 10" thick and 12ft in length. Thats just under 400lbs of wood 😂😂😂 unless jesus was a regular worlds strongest man champion there is no way he could have carried that at all, especially after a beating and then 600 metres uphill to Mount Golgotha. More likely he carried the cross section, probably 8 feet of 10"x 2"
Simon did not literally bare Jesus cross
In their more recent published material on this subject JWs accept we cannot know for sure. Here's a quote from their website, "However, the Bible does not describe the instrument of Jesus’ death, so no one can know its shape with absolute certainty."
You may see the shape of the instrument as being inconsequential, but many who claim to be Christian do use it to adorn their churches, Bibles, shape of their church building, have it decorated on their religious garments etc.
Points should be addressed on their merit rather than the age or the supposed qualifications of the commentator. JWs have chosen to translate stauros and xulon as stake rather than as cross. They haven't changed it from corss to stake.
*John 20:25 nails in hands.* "Solid proof of a crossbeam present at the time of his execution". No. There are multiple configurations of the hands and multiple nails on a single stake. As Strongs points out
_"Much time and trouble have been wasted in disputing as to whether three or four nails were used in fastening the Lord. Nonnus affirms that three only were used, in which he is followed by Gregory Nazianzen. The more general belief gives four nails, an opinion which is supported at much length and by curious arguments by Curtius. Others have carried the number of nails as high as fourteen"_
*Sign above head, not hands* look up diving headfirst on google, you'll see plenty of people diving with outstretched hands into the water. The head is used as a reference point, the hands are moveable. Being critical of an artist's impression is of very little value as a scholarly critique.
*Alexamenos graffito* There's no mention of Jesus here. Gunnar Samuelsson points out the similarity to Anubis and Typhon Seth. Google images of Typhon Seth and you'll see what I mean. The curse tablet one is very similar to the Alexamenos image.
*Staurograms* We're likely going many decades to centuries after the event so this is at best tradition repeating rather than evidence. They were found in Egypt and look like an Ankh, some scholars have linked it to Gnostic Christianity.
*Early Church Fathers* They were again a lot later and link the shape of the stauros to mysticism, so this is hardly a neutral comment from them. It's arguable that some make the shape out to be a T and others a t.
As Strongs says:
_It is therefore not surprising that ancient and even modern Christian writers should on this subject have indulged in some degree of refinement and mysticism._
*JW website pins vs crucifixes* People making the sign of the cross, burying loved ones under the sign of the cross etc etc., this is not comparable. Jesus asked his disciples to commemorate his death by the wine and the bread, not by wearing pagan symbols. JWs problem with the cross is the overwhelming usage of it by many in their worship and the links it has with superstition and mysticism.
For evidence supporting a stake:
It's the primary meaning of the word stauros and for xulon when used for execution.
The LXX uses xulon and the verb stauroo to describe the death of Haman in the book of Esther, Josephus uses the word stauros. It's seems that a pole or stake is the more likely candidate given the scenario than a cross. Some translations use gibbet or gallows, but it was 50 cubits high and difficult to describe as a cross.
Joseph prophesies in Genesis that the baker's head would be hung on a xulon, Jospehus uses the word anastaurothenta.
Galatians 3:13 which uses xulon and quotes from Deuteronomy 21, TDNT here says the dead body is hung to a tree or stake.
If a word specifying cross didn't exist, the writers could always use a comparable word such as 'diabas' (cross over), or make up a word. This happened with 'tapeinophrosune', literally 'low' and 'mind' to mean humility.
To summarise, most of the evidence used to support a cross, is either likely nothing to do with Jesus or influenced by superstition or pagan ideas. Whereas pole or stake is the primary meaning of the words, hence using 'stake' as a translation is the preferable option.
I agree that it's not a simple verticle pole but a T like our telephone and power poles.
But it also had a well-known excessive/towering/projecting seat, shaped like a horn.
At 9:25, Justin Martyr Dialogue with Trypho 91:1-2: "And a horn in the middle on which are suspended/"ride" those who are crucified/crucifying themselves". It even looked like a horn and was shaped like a horn, when assembled and pegged together with those other horns"
"Are suspended/"ride": _epixountai,_ present tense, indicative, 3rd person plural, passive/middle voice conjugation of _epoxeomai,_ "am supported, ride" and/or _epoxeuw,_ "of the male/female animal, spring upon, cover."
"are crucified/crucifying themselves": _stauroumenoi,_ perfect participle 3rd person plural nominative masculine passive/middle voice of _staurow,_ "fence with pales, pile drive, crucify."
Apparently Jesus' crucifixion included being pile-driven with a type of horn he had to sit on. His sudden death after crying out or speaking as recorded in the gospels seems strange for someone who was merely nailed to a pole or T, but congruent with being slowly impaled and trying to clear it by pushing up only to slump down until a grevious internal injury occurs.
Hypovolemic shock? You go into shock.
Asphyxiation? You gradually get weaker and so does your voice.
The Greek word stau·rosʹ is translated “cross” in many Bible translations. Notice, however, what various sources say about the meaning of this word:
“The Greek word [stau·rosʹ] properly . . . means merely a stake.”-Cyclopedia of Biblical, Theological, and Ecclesiastical Literature.
“A pole in the broadest sense. It is not the equivalent of a ‘cross.’”-Crucifixion in Antiquity.
“A strong stake, such as farmers drive into the ground to make their fences or palisades-no more, no less.”-History of the Cross.
“It never means two pieces of timber placed across one another at any angle, but always of one piece alone.”-The Companion Bible.
“An upright pale or stake . . . It never means two pieces of wood joining each other at any angle.”-A Critical Lexicon and Concordance
Have you ever seen a Telephone POLE???
It always has at least one Cross member.
But yet, we still call it a POLE
It's time to leave the cult buddy.
Regardless, idol worship and Symbols are forbidden by God
Psalms 22 , tie the sacrifice to the horns of the altar . Horns not horn .
I love DH's content, but the argument used to prove that "stauros can't mean a pole only" is not valid.
If the Cross was considered a pagan symbol then wouldn't the torture stake be considered being a pagan symbol too?
No mention of stretched out arms no crossbeam
No, becouse stauros, the original Greek and Hebrew bible translate to English, stauros is translated as a upright pole or stake, a stake or upright pole is not a pagan symbol of the cross, Jesus could drag a stake or pole the some as a cross, and the Romans practice was to impale criminals under a death sentence to a pole or stake, not crosses, your 2 hand can be put together over each other, nailed to the stake above your head, one over the other, the same with your feet one leaped over the other and nailed, a sign can easily be nailed above his head, what do you think the pole or stake is a twig from a tree? the cross is the symbol of the (god Tammuz) a pagan God, Christendom churches are (infested with pagan teachings) Constantine was a Roman emperor and (was a pagan) and in order to consolidate his power by bringing in the Pagans and there beliefs and teachings into the so-called Christian congregation, he adopted many false pagan teaching and exchanged them for so-called Christian, as a lure, as Jesus accurately said would happen after his going away (human death)
1Timothy 1:3, Paul urges Timothy to command the false teachers to stop teaching false doctrines. They were devoted to myths and endless genealogies and were abusing the law (v. 4, 7). In 1 Timothy 4:1-3, he warns of (demonically inspired teachers) who (forbid marriage and certain foods), does that sound familiar? (Catholic church) what does it read "inspired by the demons" and you know who the demon serve, not God, they serve Satan the devil "the God of this man ruled system"
2 Timothy 4:3, NIV: (For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine). Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their (itching ears) want to hear. itching ears are as some translation read to (have there ears tickled)
OK, but if the Messiah had to die a humiliating death!!, then impaled on a stake would better fit the narrative.
And, yes, a staurus could mean anything.
another thought, roman soldiers carried stakes for camp defense, If a rebel of Rome was to killed using one of these stakes, I'd suggest the cross section would be there for the victim to sit on so to speak.
I'm sure a cross section might be added better to keep a victim alive through the night.
You understand Greek much better than the Jehovah's Witnesses.
Hands lifting above head means something 1 Timothy 2:8 so torture stake makes sense
Light over Dark Ministries, have you read Martin Hengel's 'Crucifixion. It puts the death stake into the JW's CONfabulation.
Num 21:8 - for that to be fulfilled, it needs to use the ORIGINAL meaning of NES which is POLE
I haven’t but I’ll check it out :)
When a JW hears someone call their mother a “nice lady,” do they think to themselves, “hmm, 'nice' is from the Latin 'nescius' which originally meant ‘ignorant or unaware’... they must be calling my mother stupid!” NO! No one does that, words can change meaning over time, today “nice” means “kind or thoughtful.”
David Alan Black points out that “the etymological method [the original meaning of a word], used alone, cannot adequately account for the meaning of a word since meaning is continuously subject to change… It is therefore mandatory for the New Testament student to know whether the original meaning of a word still exists at a later stage... Hence it is not legitimate to say that the ‘original’ meaning of a word is its ‘real’ meaning.”[1] Yet this is exactly what JW’s do with the Greek word stauros, they look at the original meaning and ignore how the word was used in the first century.
The truth of the matter is that by the first century, “the cross existed in four different forms: (1) the crux immissa, the type usually presented in art in which the upright beam extends above the cross beam, traditionally held to be the cross on which the Redeemer suffered and died. (2) The crux commissa, or ‘Saint Anthony’s Cross’ in the form of the letter ‘T.’ (3) The Greek cross in which the cross beams are of equal length. (4) The crux decussata, or ‘Saint Andrew’s Cross,’ in the shape of the letter ‘X.’ Antedating these forms, the Assyrians impaled the body with a crude pointed stick.”[2]
DH is right that it doesn't matter what the shape of the cross was, what is important is what was accomplished on the cross. ut if someone really wants to know then the overwhelming evidence is that Jesus died on the traditional “Crux Immissa” (+) shape or the “Crux Commissa” (T) shape.
The vertical beams were left in place at the crucifixion site. The patibulum (the horizontal part of the cross on which the arms were attached) was sometimes carried to the place of crucifixion by the victim as part of the humiliation. Dionysius of Halicarnassus (c. 60BC-7AD) said, "A Roman citizen of no obscure station, having ordered one of his slaves to be put to death, delivered him to his fellow-slaves to be led away, and in order that his punishment might be witnessed by all, directed them to drag him through the Forum and every other conspicuous part of the city as they whipped him, and that he should go ahead of the procession which the Romans were at that time conducting in honour of the god. The men ordered to lead the slave to his punishment, having stretched out both his arms and fastened them to a piece of wood which extended across his breast and shoulders as far as his wrists, followed him, tearing his naked body with whips.” (Roman Antiquities, VII, 69:1-2)
Tertullian (c. 155-220 AD) said, “Every piece of timber which is fixed in the ground in an erect position is a part of a cross, and indeed the greater portion of its mass. But an entire cross is attributed to us, with its transverse beam, of course, and its projecting seat” (Tertullian, Against the Nations 1.12.3-4)
When John talks about Jesus carrying his cross (John 19:17), he is speaking about Jesus carrying the patibulum (cross beam). The nails (plural; John 20:25) indicate that his hands were nailed to the cross beam. Go look at the Puteoli graffito or the Alexamenos graffito and see how they depicted crucified people.
JW's ignore the evidence, just look at the comments on this video. Do JW's ever deal with:
- The Staurogram found in early Greek manuscripts? No.
- The Puteoli graffito or the Alexamenos graffito? No.
- Early Church writings like the Epistle of Barnabas 9:7, Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho ch. 40, Tertullian, Against the Nations 1.12.3-4, etc.? No.
- Non-Christian Roman or Greek writers like Lucian (125-180AD) who says the cross looks like the Greek letter Tau ("T") (Trial in the Court of Vowels, 12.4-13)? No.
- Modern Bible dictionaries or Greek lexicons? No, they aways appeal to old and out of date ones.
I suggest reading Gaye Strathearn's article "The Crucifixion" (2019) which you can read for free on the BYU ScholarsArchive.
[1] David Alan Black, Linguistics for Students of New Testament Greek : A Survey of Basic Concepts and Applications (Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Books, 1995).
[2] J.D. Douglas and Merrill C. Tenney, eds., “Cross,” in Zondervan Illustrated Bible Dictionary (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 2011).
Vine's Dictionary - STAUROS is yes a POLE, and even Imperial Dictionary, even called the cross as a MODIFICATION. Num 21:8 - POLE - original meaning, so for the prophecy to be FULFILLED IT NEEDS To be the original meaning which is POLE
@@Mr.DC3.1914 Wow. You really dealt with my arguments.
BDAG, 4th ed, p. 836 - STAUROS is "a stake sunk into the earth in an
upright position; a cross-piece was oft. attached to its upper part (Artem. 2,
53), so that it was shaped like a T or thus: †"
If Jesus had to die on a pole rather than a cross to fulfill Num 21:8, then in order to fulfill Exo 12 Jesus had to be a year old when he died and had to be roasted with fire-which is stupid. Nor did he have to die on a stone altar like any of the Levitical sacrifices in order to fulfil the type. You're being ridiculous.
Now deal with my arguments which you clearly want to avoid.
@@kevinfromcanada4379 again, you just reject Num 21:8, and the point in Exo 12 is that Jesus was like a sheep, a young male(best age for a sacrificial lamb) and he died and his blood was given. Jesus was not prophecied to be roasted and eaten so stop twisting. Num 21 shows that the snake which symbolizes Jesus was lifted up and put on a pole(nes) and that shows where Jesus was put to death, on a pole. and that Pole was modified later on to have a cross beam, and in Greek it is called a stauros and it is also a Pole
@@kevinfromcanada4379 Vine's Dictionary - STAUROS is yes a POLE, and even Imperial Dictionary, even called the cross as a MODIFICATION ., So the crossbeam was a modification
Jesus Christ May Not Have Died on Cross
No evidence in Ancient sources backs up defining symbol of Christianity
ByRussell Goldman via via logo
July 01, 2010, 12:55 PM
July 2, 2010— -- For 2,000 years the crucifix has been a potent symbol of both Jesus Christ's death and Christianity. Now one Swedish theologian says that despite the crucifix's proliferation in art and literature, there is scant evidence in the Bible or other ancient sources to indicate that Christ was killed on a cross.
Gunnar Samuelsson, an evangelical preacher and theologian, says he spent three years combing thousands of ancient texts to research his recently completed 400-page doctoral thesis "Crucifixion in Antiquity."
What he discovered, he said, "came as a shock." While there were numerous references to "suspension devices" used for executions at the time of Christ's death, he could find no explicit references to the classic T-shaped cross.
"There is no distinct punishment called 'crucifixion,' no distinct punishment device called a 'crucifix' anywhere mentioned in any of the ancient texts including the Gospels," he told ABCNews.com.
Samuelsson devoutly believes the story of Jesus' death and resurrection, but says for generations people have misinterpreted and mistranslated the Greek word "stauros" to mean crucifix, when really the term just means a suspension device, which might have been anything such as a "pole or a tree trunk." The earliest versions of the New Testament were written in Greek.
Hey!! Former catholic here. Just an fyi that WE DO NOT WORSHIP THE CROSS OR ANY OTHER SORT OF STATUES. We revere or honor what the statues represent. Therefore it’s not idolatry. We don’t pray to a statue, thinking that a piece of stone or marble is divine and holy. Not at all, it’s instead used as a remembrance of Jesus, Mary, the apostles and the saints. And no WE DID NOT REMOVE THE 2nd COMMANDMENT TO JUSTIFY OUR STATUES. The commandments aren’t numbered the same way between Jews, Catholics and Protestants. Moreover, the 2nd commandment is a mere extension of the 1st commandment. God forbade images because God had no image but when God became incarnate in Christ, he took upon himself an image - he took the form of man. He joined himself to creation, and united God and man. In fact, he made us partakers of the divine nature (2 Peter 1:4) and filled us with all the fullness of God (Ephesians 3:19). Consequently, since God took the form of man, and himself became a living icon, it is legitimate for us to make a representation of God in material form. Moreover, since the saints have a share in the divine nature and the fullness of God (and reflect the divinity of Christ), it is legitimate to make images of them as well. We would contend, therefore, that something substantial happened at the Incarnation, that the God who had no form prior to that, is now in material form; and to reflect that awesome truth, we make images of Christ and those he has glorified. These images we venerate, (never worship).
When I was exiting the JWs one of the first things I looked into was the cross. What a joke the watchtower idea is. They even used a drawing of a stake in some random book without showing that the very next image was a cross that showed what was commonly used.
Vine's dictionary says "Cross, Crucify
denotes, primarily, an upright pale or stake." On such malefactors were nailed for execution. Both the noun and the verb stauroo, "to fasten to a stake or pale," are originally to be distinguished from the ecclesiastical form of a two beamed "cross." The shape of the latter had its origin in ancient Chaldea, and was used as the symbol of the god Tammuz (being in the shape of the mystic Tau, the initial of his name) in that country and in adjacent lands, including Egypt. By the middle of the 3rd cent. A.D. the churches had either departed from, or had travestied, certain doctrines of the Christian faith. In order to increase the prestige of the apostate ecclesiastical system pagans were received into the churches apart from regeneration by faith, and were permitted largely to retain their pagan signs and symbols. Hence the Tau or T, in its most frequent form, with the cross-piece lowered, was adopted to stand for the "cross" of Christ."
The serpent when idolized was destroyed so is the same when the CROSS is idolized - 2 kings 18:4 - He was the one who removed the high places,+ smashed the sacred pillars, and cut down the sacred pole.*+ He also crushed the copper serpent that Moses had made;+ for down to that time the people of Israel had been making sacrificial smoke to it and it used to be called the copper serpent-idol.*
@@Mr.DC3.1914 if there was a Jesus he was killed on a cross shaped instrument, you're simply wrong and the lengths at which you go to argue otherwise demonstrate your fanaticism. You're like a flat earther.
@@cygnustsp you are against FACTS so you are the flat earther. Vine's and Imperial Dictionaries tell you it is an upright stake/pole and Nume 21:8 shows it is a POLE
@@Mr.DC3.1914 your mom got the pole
Excellent video
The serpent when idolized was destroyed so is the same when the CROSS is idolized - 2 kings 18:4 - He was the one who removed the high places,+ smashed the sacred pillars, and cut down the sacred pole.*+ He also crushed the copper serpent that Moses had made;+ for down to that time the people of Israel had been making sacrificial smoke to it and it used to be called the copper serpent-idol.*
pole singular
I want to know WHY it’s so important for JWs to deny the cross.
The reason that we deny the cross because it's a pagan symbol by the god tammuz we don't want anything to do with paganism the cross has been around for thousands of years before Jesus came to the Earth
The Greek word rendered “cross” in many modern Bible versions (“torture stake” in NW) is stau·rosʹ. In classical Greek, this word meant merely an upright stake, or pale. Later it also came to be used for an execution stake having a crosspiece. The Imperial Bible-Dictionary acknowledges this, saying: “The Greek word for cross, [stau·rosʹ], properly signified a stake, an upright pole, or piece of paling, on which anything might be hung, or which might be used in impaling [fencing in] a piece of ground. . . . Even amongst the Romans the crux (from which our cross is derived) appears to have been originally an upright pole.”-Edited by P. Fairbairn (London, 1874), Vol. I, p. 376
The book The Non-Christian Cross, by J. D. Parsons (London, 1896), says: “There is not a single sentence in any of the numerous writings forming the New Testament, which, in the original Greek, bears even indirect evidence to the effect that the stauros used in the case of Jesus was other than an ordinary stauros; much less to the effect that it consisted, not of one piece of timber, but of two pieces nailed together in the form of a cross. . . . It is not a little misleading upon the part of our teachers to translate the word stauros as ‘cross’ when rendering the Greek documents of the Church into our native tongue, and to support that action by putting ‘cross’ in our lexicons as the meaning of stauros without carefully explaining that that was at any rate not the primary meaning of the word in the days of the Apostles, did not become its primary signification till long afterwards, and became so then, if at all, only because, despite the absence of corroborative evidence, it was for some reason or other assumed that the particular stauros upon which Jesus was executed had that particular shape.”-Pp. 23, 24; see also The Companion Bible (London, 1885), Appendix No. 162
“Various objects, dating from periods long anterior to the Christian era, have been found, marked with crosses of different designs, in almost every part of the old world. India, Syria, Persia and Egypt have all yielded numberless examples . . . The use of the cross as a religious symbol in pre-Christian times and among non-Christian peoples may probably be regarded as almost universal, and in very many cases it was connected with some form of nature worship.”-Encyclopædia Britannica (1946), Vol. 6, p. 753.
“The shape of the [two-beamed cross] had its origin in ancient Chaldea, and was used as the symbol of the god Tammuz (being in the shape of the mystic Tau, the initial of his name) in that country and in adjacent lands, including Egypt. By the middle of the 3rd cent. A.D. the churches had either departed from, or had travestied, certain doctrines of the Christian faith. In order to increase the prestige of the apostate ecclesiastical system pagans were received into the churches apart from regeneration by faith, and were permitted largely to retain their pagan signs and symbols. Hence the Tau or T, in its most frequent form, with the cross-piece lowered, was adopted to stand for the cross of Christ.”-An Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words (London, 1962), W. E. Vine, p. 256.
If YOU still want to use the cross in YOUR worship then go ahead, but when you have to stand before Yehovah, the almighty, good luck on trying to justify your putting Jesus onto a pagan idol. Just tying to help you out of what will be a very sticky situation !
It’s like you didn’t even watch the video , and just posted WT articles instead.
@@LightoverDarkMinistry tree singular
@@scottgrey2877 Is a tree with branches many trees or one? Is a telephone pole one pole or two poles?
You continue to post the same thing on multiple videos even though you have been shown that σταυρος can mean "cross," and that the evidence supports the belief that Jesus died on a cross shaped σταυρος. At this point you are simply demonstrating that you are not an honest person.
Have you dealt with:
- The Staurogram found in early Greek manuscripts? No.
- The Puteoli graffito or the Alexamenos graffito? No.
- Early Church writings like the Epistle of Barnabas 9:7, Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho ch. 40, Tertullian, Against the Nations 1.12.3-4, etc.? No.
- Non-Christian Roman or Greek writers like Lucian (125-180AD) who says the cross looks like the Greek letter Tau ("T") (Trial in the Court of Vowels, 12.4-13)? No.
- Modern Bible dictionaries or Greek lexicons (BDAG or Brill)? No.
Clearly you are not interested in truth but in propagating falsehood.
@@BasicBiblicalTruth a pole singular a tree singular he was nailed on a pole why add another pole?
A cross was also called a tree
The cross beam is considered limbs
There is no evidence or research that indicates the time required for death on either. Time req to die was dependent on previous health condition and individual factors 😢😢
Herbert. You win the cigar. True. If the cross can be used as form of idolity. A stake COULD BE ALSO
JW SIMPLY Make the statement. We dont put the stake, up in places of worship, we dont put it on buildings. We dont wear it otound our neck, we dont do the sign of the stake during worship. Its just a historical fact that is true. If jesus was executed bg Ak 47 we dont incoperate it it into worship. We dont require ANY SYMBOL . Jesus was clear about idolitry. NO. YOU WILL RECOGNIZE A TREE BY ITS FRUITS. IF A CHRISTAIN REQUIRES A CROSS. OR ANY SYMBOLE TO IDENTIFY AS A CRISTAIN, THEY HAVE A LOT OF SPIRITUAL GROWTH TO DO.
The cross is symbolic he was hanged on a tree
It is historic fact that the Romans did crucify people on crosses .
My favorite thing the Watchtower does is when they change the meaning or translation of words in the New Testament even when those biblical authors are quoting Old Testament passages.
I know right.. It is like all the bible translations in the NT that leave out the Tetragrammaton although the quoted OT verses contain it!
@@jahtruthdefender
Look at the Greek Septuagint. It had God’s Name all over it. Even in the days of Jesus. And begins to vanish. Like it has in many Bible translations. What does that tell us?? 🤔
@@NickHawaii I concur and that’s the premise of my sarcasm.
8:35 Not only they represent Jesus on a stake but with a nail through his wrists, not through his hands. This is so dumb and fake! And those people are so brainwashed and blinded by this cult that they don't see anything wrong about it. But Jesus himself and Thomas said: "Except I shall see in HIS HANDS the print of the nails" (John 20:25); "Then saith he to Thomas, reach hither thy finger, and behold MY HANDS" (verse 27)
Also, Jesus said to Peter: "but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt STRECH FORTH THY HANDS, and another shall gird thee, and carry thee whither thou wouldest not. 19 This spake he, signifying by what death he should glorify God." (John 21: 18, 19). Peter requested to be crucified upside down, as he felt unworthy to die in the SAME MANNER as Christ.
@damien2339. The Greek word for 'hands' also included the area that contained the wrists. Many scholars have pointed out that if someone were hanging by his hands, they would not be able to support the weight. BTW, I am not a JW, but an evangelical Christian. I am not brainwashed by the JWs, but I have fought against them for decades because they have been keeping my Mom in bondage. Thanks for standing up against them.
I dont think it can ‘be proved’ either way. The word ‘stauros’ is extremely convincing as a stake, and the copper serpent pole too. Other counter ‘proofs’ are not as solid; later writers were not 100% accurate nor inspired.
It depends on the threshold. If you are looking for 100% certainty, then you are correct. The threshold for Civil court is "the balance of probabilities," which cross definitely meets. I would contend that cross meets the threshold of criminal court-"beyond reasonable doubt."
Would you be interested in talking about the evidence? I think that once it is laid out you will see that the evidence favours cross, at the very least on a balance of probabilities.
By the way, a “ships mast” is only the vertical pole; the other wood is a “boom”.
@@Mandellhouse I’m not the creator of this video. Have you read the early church fathers (ECF)? For instance, Tertullian points to a ship as a picture of the cross because it had a mast and an intersecting yard or “boom” as you call it, thus, forming a cross.
The ECF are uniform in proclaiming that Jesus died on a cross, not a stake or pole.
@@BasicBiblicalTruth Yes I have, and it is a puzzle. I take the view that (1) the Bible and ‘stauros ’ trumps the ECF, together with the copper serpent specific prophetic type.
The separate issues are whether we should venerate something that killed someone, and The fact that the Cross has always been a rank pagan symbol.
@@Mandellhouse on what grounds do you pit the Bible against the ECF? Stouros can mean stake/pole or cross. Try picking up a Greek lexicon. The word itself is neutral, telling us nothing about the shape.
Num 21:8 LXX says, Ποίησον σεαυτῷ ὄφιν καὶ θὲς αὐτὸν ἐπὶ σημείου “Make for yourself a snake and put it on a sign-post.”
Jesus said, “Just as Moses _lifted up_ the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up” (Emphasis mine; John 3:14 NET). The point of this text is that Jesus must be “lifting up”-it doesn’t say on what type of instrument (“sign-post” [σημεῖον] isn’t mentioned). Likewise, when Jesus used Jonah as an analogy in Mat 12:40, the only point of correspondence was the 3 days. If Jesus or the NT writers wanted to say that Jesus would be/was crucified on the same shape of instrument that the snake was placed on, they would have used the same word found in Num 21:8-9, but they didn’t-they used σταυρος.
“No classical author writes that an individual carried a crux [vertical beam] before crucifixion. When they do mention the object an individual carried, they call it a patibulum [crossbeam], which the semantic investigation indicated was a lateral bar [crossbeam] in that context. The writers of the Gospels, and in particular John (19:17), with only the Greek word stauros (σταυρός) available to them, chose to use that word to describe what Jesus carried … *The probability that John thought Jesus was forced to carry the vertical beam - a practice that the Romans did not use according to all the existing evidence - is nearly zero.* Consequently, John should be interpreted to mean that Jesus was attached to a _patibulum_ [crossbeam] in 19:17, and that the nail marks in his hands (20:25) themselves indicate that in John’s Gospel Jesus was then (i.e., 19:17) or later nailed to the bar [crossbeam].” (bold and words in [ ] are mine) John Granger Cook, Crucifixion in the Mediterranean World, 2nd, extended (Tübingen: Mohr Siebeck, 2019), 33-34.
So, the NT evidence is consistent with the ECF’s belief that Jesus died on a cross shaped stauros, not a stake. In fact, no one in the early church believed Jesus died on a stake/pole.
With regards to the cross or stake the Lord Jesus was executed on, being in question. A scripture found at Ezra 6 v 11, indicates that anyone violating an order by the King, would result in a Timber being pulled from his house, and he would be impaled on it...... (N.W.T.) The K.J. version says...."And being set up, let him be hanged on it". In both scriptures, there is no mention of a Cross-piece. Check for yourself!.
That’s Ezra, 400 years before Christ. We historically know stakes were used then, and crosses were used in the first century. Being that the church fathers, the Bible, and archaeology all point to execution with the cross beam, would you say it’s fair to assume it was a cross?
Did you even listen to the video?
@@discoveringlisa486 no crossbeam it does not say his arms were stretched out
@@scottgrey2877 it doesn't say his hands were above his head either .
@@ericbulman1752 1 Timothy 2:8 KJV
Remember, Jesus did speak in Aramaic so he said mesik’eli instead of stauros
I love always your explanation it is very satisfying. It's always answer my question. Thank you.
Perfect video thank you🙏
Thank you Lord Jesus for finishing your sacrificial offering for mankind and thank you for continuing your work of intercession for us as our High Priest in Heaven!
Hebrews 7:25 - “Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.”
Hebrews 8:1-2 - “Now this is the main point of the things we are saying: We have such a High Priest, who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, a Minister of the sanctuary and of the true tabernacle which the Lord erected, and not man.”
Babylon the Great and scattered like weeds 1000000+ crosses- idols set around the world.
Has anyone ever seen a Telephone POLE???
It always has a Cross member
WELL PLEASE TELL ME, DOESN'T THE KING JAMES VERSION SAY AT Acts,5 verse 30, Jesus was put to death on a TREE? DOESN'T Acts 10 verse 39 say that Jesus was put to death on a TREE?, DOESN'T Galations3 verse 13 say that Jesus was put to death on a TREE? And so on and so forth? Deuteronomy 21 verse 22 to 23?
Don’t trees have limbs? Or are they just limbless poles?
@@LightoverDarkMinistry Does the tree of life have branches?
You need to do a lot more regarding the Pagan symbols
I came to this video hoping to find stuff, and I did, but for the pagan symbol argument, you're forgetting a LOT of other crosses. Can you make an update on that? because the ANKH isnt enough
Perpendicular lines are found in every culture and every religion, because it’s basic and simple. It probably could have added more.
John 1424. Actully ,, the word tranates as nails. Is hellios. It means , spike, peg, or nail. AND IT REFERS TO A SINGLE ITEM.
The word nails. Also translated as nail. Holes. The amount of nails of nail holes proves NOTHING. ONE NAIL CAN MAKE TWO HOLES.
Where is your evidence for that?
Man you're good I just going to shut my mouth and listen to 👍🙏🤣
Thanks brother I've been a witness since 1973 I walked away in 2017. When I gave my life to Jesus and found him. Unfortunately my wife is still a Jehovah's witness. I talked to her sometimes about different things in the Bible but it's hard to penetrate a Jehovah's witness. I tell her you have to have your own personal Armageddon. 🤣🤣🤣👍👍👍🙏🙏🙏
Matthew 27:32, Mark 15:21 and Luke 23:26 states that Jesus' cross was carried most of the way to Golgotha by Simon, about a quarter mile journey.
It is highly unlikely that the wooden beam itself was carried or dragged, weighing well over 200 lbs. What is more likely is that those sentenced to crucifixion, after being whipped and beaten almost to death, was to carry the crossbeam that weighed roughly 75 lbs, which the convict would carry over his shoulders.
Also, keep in mind that dragging a straight wooden beam weighing over 200 lbs would likely be impossible because of how awkward it would be to hold onto a straight beam that heavy, especially on an incline to the hill of Golgotha.
And, of course, carrying the whole cross - the beam and crossbeam - would be almost 300 lbs. A person who is whipped and beaten with loss of blood, and dehydrated, would not be able to carry such a huge cross a quarter mile.
Golgotha was located on a hill. I doubt that dragging a 300 lbs cross on an incline is possible.
P66 and P90, documents which some have dated to the middle of the second century (and possibly earlier), contain the rho + tau combination.
JW'S don't deal with evidence, just look at the comments.
They ignore the staurogram, the Alexamenos graffito, the Puteoli graffito, the writing of the early church fathers, etc.
JW'S appeal to etymology, ignoring the fact that words can change meaning. "Nice" originally meant "stupid" but is that the meaning today? No.
Some JW'S insist that for the picture in Num 21:8 to be fulfilled that Jesus had to die on a post, which is nonsense. It's like saying that in order for Jesus to be our passover lamb he had to die on a stone altar. JW'S are not consistent.
@@kevinfromcanada4379 And the reason why they don't deal with the evidence is that they give their allegiance to an organisation and not to God. If you put a man-made institution between you and God truth and rational argument are eliminated.
They are like the Pharisees.......they are enemies of the cross.
Philippians 3:18
King James Version
18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:
Great illustration. I was raised a JW but never baptized. In my parents house there was a big picture of Charles T. Russell and yet if they went to my house and saw a picture of Jesus or a crucifix in my house they would call it idolatry.
Yeah good point. Glad you’re out! My wife has a similar story, raised but never baptized.
Double standards, much?
I thought I was going to add something to this before I watched the video. You hit EVERY MAJOR point that I try to make when JWs start spouting off their gobbledegook. Nice job. Now to read the garbage responses from the JWs on this page that just won't look at the evidence.
The first three gospels say nothing about nails Thomas does not say Jesus feet were nailed John 19 says his side was pierced but does not say his hands and feet were nailed Jesus was not crucified
@@Scott48-w9i And the garbage just showed up.
@@richbaker7187 see you do not careless about truth
@@Scott48-w9i What? Why are you here?
@@richbaker7187 you will perish for ever if you stay on the path you are on
One question why do people use the symbol of the cross today Jesus may have died on it but why use a cross as a holy symbol
And what if he died another way would a type of symbol for that torture also be seen as peace hope and etc...?
A reminder of what Christ died. The Cross signifies hope, grace, sacrifice, death defeated, peace with God, and above all love. Sure it's the symbol of a horrible execution devise, but God himself chose to die in that way to show us the love he had for us while we were still sinners. If it had been a stake, or something else, well, we'd be wearing those I guess.
@@LightoverDarkMinistry imagine if guillotines were a thing and we had to wear mini guillotines 😂
Ex-jw, current pagan, there is nothing i love more than calling out paganism in the witnesses. "Oh yeah, thats what we do to to worship our pagan gods"😂 hit em with the uno reverse card
Jesus always talked about being lifted up in his death. On a stake a person is not lifted up. 32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself.” 33 This He said, signifying by what death He would die. John chzpter 12. Then Jesus said to them, “When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He...John 8:28. The devils folks gave Jesus a lift into everlasting glory, hallelujahh. JW created a smart aleck, smart ass religion. "We know everything better" is their theme song. 😮😢
Jesus chose to ride on the back of a donkey into Jerusalem knowing the time had come. Of all the animals in that region he decided to ride on the back of a donkey. The donkey is the only animal on planet earth with a unique mark on its back and as Jesus rode on the back of the donkey he knew where he was going too. Google the back of a donkey and all your doubts will be answered. In Mathew 27:17 Jesus said Nevertheless, lest we offend them, go to the sea, cast in a hook, and take the fish that comes up first. And when you have opened its mouth, you will find a piece of money; take that and give it to them for Me and you.” Our Heavenly Father prepares the way to fulfill his promises and future plans perfectly!
It is very easy for a distractor of the NWT/WTB&TS to carp at a translation that he disagrees with. But it is sad when he does that which he falsely accuses the said Bible Society of doing. Being dishonest
Rutherford himself wrote
"The cross of CHRIST is the greatest pivotal truth of the divine arrangement, from which radiates the hope of men." (Rutherford, the Harp of Men, p. 141). The Watchtower produced " the photo drama of creation in 1914. Look at slide 65. JESUS is depicted on a cross.
The cross and crown symbol was on the
"Watchtower, the Hereld of CHRIST'S Presence".the same symbol was also on the pyramid that was on Charles T Russell's grave. There are many pictures of it.
The Greek word stau·rosʹ is translated “cross” in many Bible translations. Notice, however, what various sources say about the meaning of this word:
“The Greek word [stau·rosʹ] properly . . . means merely a stake.”-Cyclopedia of Biblical, Theological, and Ecclesiastical Literature.
“A pole in the broadest sense. It is not the equivalent of a ‘cross.’”-Crucifixion in Antiquity.
“A strong stake, such as farmers drive into the ground to make their fences or palisades-no more, no less.”-History of the Cross.
“It never means two pieces of timber placed across one another at any angle, but always of one piece alone.”-The Companion Bible.
“An upright pale or stake . . . It never means two pieces of wood joining each other at any angle.”-A Critical Lexicon and Concordance
In the mean time the pyramid on C.T. Russell`s has been removed.
as the Imperial Dictionary mentions about staUROS - The Greek word for cross σταυρός properly signified a stake, an upright pole, or piece of paling, on which anything might be hung, or which might be used in impaling a piece of ground. But a modification was introduced as the dominion and usages of Rome extended themselves through Greek-speaking countries. Even amongst the Romans the crux (from which our cross is derived) appears to have been originally an upright pole, and this always remained the more prominent part. nOTICE IT SAYS a MODIFICATION was introduced , PUTTING the cross beam was A MODIFICATION, so the question is for Numb 21:8 to be fulfilled , should it use the MODIFIED version of stauros or the ORIGINAL meaning of stauros? FOR THE PROPHECY to be fulfilled it should use THE ORIGINAL VERSION OF STAUROS.
Effing what???
The exact shape wasn't the point of the prophecy, you blind pharisee! 🤣
I’ve never read less intelligible gibberish in my life. And what prophecy at Num 21:8? There’s no prophecy there unless you make one up. It’s a totally unrelated story.
@@SaturnSnapple Num 21:8-9 related to this - John 3:14, 15
14 And just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so the Son of man must be lifted up, 15 so that everyone believing in him may have everlasting life.
@@SaturnSnapple DX (AKA "Dr D C1") makes up prophecies that aren't found in the text. Num 21:8 is a type of Christ-not a prophecy-just like Jonah was a type of Christ (Mat 12:40). Did Jesus have to be swallowed by a fish like Jonah? No, he had to be dead and burried for 3 days. Did Jesus have to be placed on a pole to fulfill the type in Num 21:8? No, he had to be lifted up... which happened on a cross.
What about all the other types Jesus fulfilled-the pascal lamb, the scape goat, the burnt offering, etc.-did he die exactly the way they died? No, yet he still fulfilled the type.
DX doesn't care about evidence, he's only interested in attempting to defend the nonsense position of the Watchtower.
He completely ignores, and refuses to look at the evidence. For instance, does he ever deal with:
- The Staurogram found in early Greek manuscripts? No.
- The Puteoli graffito or the Alexamenos graffito? No.
- Early Church writings like the Epistle of Barnabas 9:7, Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho ch. 40, Tertullian, Against the Nations 1.12.3-4, etc.? No.
- Non-Christian Roman or Greek writers like Lucian (125-180AD) who says the cross looks like the Greek letter Tau ("T") (Trial in the Court of Vowels, 12.4-13)? No.
- Modern Bible dictionaries or Greek lexicons? No, he aways appeals to old, out of date ones, and usually only in part.
Bottom line, he isn't interested in truth.
The instrument that Jesus died on was just that, a torture instrument, and all the evidence points to the fact that Jesus did not doe on a cross but rather a "upright pole of stake" !
An important reason is that Jesus Christ did not die on a cross. The Greek word generally translated “cross” is stau·ros′. It basically means “an upright pale or stake.” The Companion Bible points out: “[Stau·ros′] never means two pieces of timber placed across one another at any angle . . . There is nothing in the Greek of the [New Testament] even to imply two pieces of timber.”
In several texts, Bible writers use another word for the instrument of Jesus’ death. It is the Greek word xy′lon. (Acts 5:30; 10:39; 13:29; Galatians 3:13; 1 Peter 2:24) This word simply means “timber” or “a stick, club, or tree.”
The Greek word stau·rosʹ is translated “cross” in many Bible translations. Notice, however, what various sources say about the meaning of this word:
“The Greek word [stau·rosʹ] properly . . . means merely a stake.”-Cyclopedia of Biblical, Theological, and Ecclesiastical Literature.
“A pole in the broadest sense. It is not the equivalent of a ‘cross.’”-Crucifixion in Antiquity.
Question: How would God feel if it were true and that people put Jesus onto a pagan symbol ? God is not one to tolerate this, just read of how he felt about such in the old testament !
Hi thanks for the comment. Did you watch the video?
@@LightoverDarkMinistry The Greek word stau·rosʹ is translated “cross” in many Bible translations. Notice, however, what various sources say about the meaning of this word:
“The Greek word [stau·rosʹ] properly . . . means merely a stake.”-Cyclopedia of Biblical, Theological, and Ecclesiastical Literature.
“A pole in the broadest sense. It is not the equivalent of a ‘cross.’”-Crucifixion in Antiquity.
“A strong stake, such as farmers drive into the ground to make their fences or palisades-no more, no less.”-History of the Cross.
“It never means two pieces of timber placed across one another at any angle, but always of one piece alone.”-The Companion Bible.
“An upright pale or stake . . . It never means two pieces of wood joining each other at any angle.”-A Critical Lexicon and Concordance
@@STROND Did you watch the video?
@@LightoverDarkMinistry I stopped watching it after I felt a bit nauseous after hearing you trying to defend such a pagan image. SO how about refuting my statements then ? You wanted to discuss this !!!!
@@LightoverDarkMinistry If you really want to know the truth as to what most bible commentators think then see...ruclips.net/video/9QNYRLIv83w/видео.html
Giving us a false teaching we are for Christ
Never heard this from my ex JW friend!! I would have said something!!
Can you imagine the unbelievable nerve it takes to contrive a two word phrase ....because you hate the cross ???....... the grey millstone bible will hang on them as they are thrown into the deepest part of the sea !
That stake doctrin was invented by Rutherford.
STAROUS is an upright stake or pole. But what really matters are the carved images in churches. Flee from idolatry.
Nicky,
Σταυρός means, “a pole to be placed in the ground and used for capital punishment, *cross* … a stake sunk into the earth in an upright position; *a cross-piece was often attached to its upper part (Artem. 2, 53), so that it was shaped like a T or thus: t.”* [1]
Σταυρός means, “a stake or post (as set upright), i.e. (specially), *a pole or cross* (as an instrument of capital punishment); figuratively, exposure to death, i.e. Self-denial; by implication, the atonement of Christ -- cross.” [2]
Σταυρός means, “stake, as instrum, of punishment PLUT. Art. 17.7 | extens. *cross, as punishment,* also fig. DIOD. 2.18.1 NT Matt. 16.24, Mar. 8.34, al. PLUT. Vind 554a ORIG. Cels. 2.56.28 (of Christ) etc. | fig. crucifixion of Christ, whose suffering on the cross became a means of salvation and redemption of human sin ATHANAS. Gent 1.16 etc.”[3]
Stauros can mean stake, pole, OR cross, depending on the context. In the NT, stauros means "cross," as ALL the evidence shows. This issue is a clear demonstration that JWs do not care about truth or evidence but only about propagating the teachings of a group of men in NY.
[1] Walter A. Bauer, _A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature [BDAG],_ 4th ed. (Chicago, Il: University of Chicago Press, 2021), s.v. Σταυρός.
[2]James Strong, Greek Dictionary of the New Testament, (United States: Hunt & Eaton, 1890), 66.
[3] Franco Montanari, The Brill Dictionary of Ancient Greek (Leiden: Brill, 2018), s.v. Σταυρός.
Awesome!
The cross is not consistent with how Authorities/rulers executed criminals in bible times. *Not only that but the symbol does not please God.* Here are some examples to show why...
Esther 5:14 New Living Translation
14So Haman’s wife, Zeresh, and all his friends suggested, *“Set up a sharpened pole that stands seventy-five feeta tall, and in the morning ask the king to impale Mordecai on it.* When this is done, you can go on your merry way to the banquet with the king.” *This pleased Haman, and he ordered the pole set up.*
Esther 7:9 New Living Translation
Then Harbona, one of the king’s eunuchs, said, *“Haman has set up a sharpened pole that stands seventy-five feet tall in his own courtyard. He intended to use it to impale Mordecai,* the man who saved the king from assassination.” *“Then impale* Haman on it!” the king ordered.
10So they *impaled Haman on the pole* he had set up for Mordecai, and the king’s anger subsided.
Esther 8:7 New Living Translation
Then King Xerxes said to Queen Esther and Mordecai the Jew, “I have given Esther the property of Haman, *and he has been impaled on a pole* because he tried to destroy the Jews.
So Haman made and was impale on a pole/beam. And this one was 75 feet tall. How stable would it have been with a cross beam attached to it as well...?
Then when the Jews were released captvity in Babylon King Darius ordered anyone breaking his command to be publicly impaled - Again on *a single beam pulled from their own house...*
Ezra 6:11 New Living Translation
*“Those who violate this decree in any way will have a beam* pulled from their house. *Then they will be lifted up and impaled on it,* and their house will be reduced to a pile of rubble.
Notice the same expression Jesus used "lifted up" obviously to mean "impaled"/killed.
John 8:28 New International Version
So Jesus said, *“When you have lifted up the Son of Man,* then you will know that I am he and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me.
John 12:32,34 New Living Translation
And *when I am lifted up* from the earth, I will draw everyone to myself.”
34The crowd responded, “We understood from Scripture that the Messiah would live forever. *How can you say the Son of Man will die?* Just who is this Son of Man, anyway?”
Jesus also likened his kind of death to an event in Israelite times, not long after coming out of Egypt as slaves. *Notice both instances state a pole/beam.*
Numbers 21:9 New Living Translation
*So Moses made a snake out of bronze and attached it to a pole.* Then anyone who was bitten by a snake could look at the bronze snake and be healed!
John 3:14 New Living Translation
And *as Moses lifted up the bronze snake on a pole in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up,*
Suddenly lots of bibles translate the same pole/beam used to execute criminals as a two beam instrument. That even contradicts Jesus initial words about the kind of death he would experience...he would be impaled as a criminal. So it's obvious that Translations diverged from the original meaning...
Matthew 10:38 New International Version
Whoever does not *take up their cross* and follow me is not worthy of me.
New Living Translation
If you refuse to *take up your cross* and follow me, you are not worthy of being mine.
Mathew 27:32 New International Version
As they were going out, they met a man from Cyrene, named Simon, *and they forced him to carry the cross.*
New Living Translation
Along the way, they came across a man named Simon, who was from Cyrene, *and the soldiers forced him to carry Jesus’ cross.*
However, notice how Paul corrects the meaning back to what was meant...
Galatians 3:13 New International Version
Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, *for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole.”*
New Living Translation
But Christ has rescued us from the curse pronounced by the law. When he was hung on the cross, he took upon himself the curse for our wrongdoing. *For it is written in the Scriptures, “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree.”*
Deuteronomy 21:23 New International Version
you must not leave the body *hanging on the pole* overnight. Be sure to bury it that same day, because *anyone who is hung on a pole is under God’s curse.* You must not desecrate the land the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance.
New Living Translation
the body must not remain *hanging from the tree overnight.* You must bury the body that same day, for anyone who is hung is cursed in the sight of God. In this way, you will prevent the defilement of the land the LORD your God is giving you as your special possession.
*So Paul showed that Jesus was foretold in the Mosaic law to be impaled/hung on a pole/tree/beam...*
**That demonstrates the Cross is not scriptural in anyway.** That has crept into the bible, but by analysing the whole bible that insertion is highlighted...
**Jesus was executed as criminal and therefore the instrument used to kill him is not holy/clean before God. Imagine a child was shot. Would the parents make replicas of the gun to honour their child's memory? Isn't that just grotesque and morbid...!! Well think about what the cross is meant to represent. Now think about God's feelings watching his Son betrayed, tortured and finally die...**
Mark 14:21 New Living Translation
For the Son of Man must die, as the Scriptures declared long ago. *But how terrible it will be for the one who betrays him. It would be far better for that man if he had never been born!”*
Matthew 27:3,4,45-54 New International Version
3When Judas, who had betrayed him, realized that Jesus had been condemned to die, he was filled with remorse. So he took the thirty pieces of silver back to the leading priests and the elders. *4“I have sinned,” he declared, “for I have betrayed an innocent man.”*
*5Then Judas threw the silver coins down in the Temple and went out and hanged himself.*
*The Death of Jesus*
*45From noon until three in the afternoon darkness came over all the land.* 46About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eli, Eli, c lemasabachthani?” (which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”). d
*50And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit.*
51At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split
*54When the centurion and those with him who were guarding Jesus saw the earthquake and all that had happened, they were terrified, and exclaimed, “Surely he was the Son of God!”*
**God was deeply hurt when he saw his Son betrayed, tortured and killed. Why would he venerate, memorialise, immortalise the death instrument of the one he loves the most in the whole univese? Would he want to see it on church walls, on spires, on chains round people’s neck?? We need to understand how any parent would see this...**
John 3:16,35 New Living Translation
16“For this is how God loved the world: *He gaveg his one and only Son,* so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life.
*35The Father loves his Son* and has put everything into his hands.
John 5:20 New Living Translation
*For the Father loves the Son* and shows him everything he is doing. In fact, the Father will show him how to do even greater works than healing this man. Then you will truly be astonished.
Did the Romans use crosses? Yes or no.
@@LightoverDarkMinistry The practice was a death sentence...an upright pole/stake was used....pure and simple. The cross beam has no purpose. It would be like a person sentenced to death by lethal injection 💉 and electric chair...one has no value/point. Criminals weren't given the most comfortable ways to die. They were nailed to the stake/pole hand and foot and then the stake/pole lifted and dropped into the hole to maintain an upright position...
Matthew 27:35 New Living Translation
*After they had nailed him to* the cross, the soldiers gambled for his clothes by throwing dice.
Luke 24:39,40 New Living Translation
*39Look at my hands. Look at my feet.* You can see that it’s really me. Touch me and make sure that I am not a ghost, because ghosts don’t have bodies, as you see that I do.” *40As he spoke, he showed them his hands and his feet.*
Why would the Romans nail a persons feet to the stake/pole with one nail...but not do the same to the hands (1 nail through both hands)? Why separate the hands? **No, there was no extra horizontal beam and there were no extra nails used to separate the hands. It was one upright beam, 1 nail went through the feet, 1 nail went through the hands.** That is consistent with the entire bibles use of a **single vertical beam/pole/stake from the Mosaic law, to the Persians, to the Romans...**
The only other thing apart from the pole/beam/stake was a sign above Jesus head...
John 19:19-22 New Living Translation
19And Pilate *posted a sign on the cross that read, “Jesus of Nazareth,d the King of the Jews.”* 20The place where Jesus was crucified was near the city, *and the sign was written in Hebrew, Latin, and Greek, so that many people could read it.*
21Then the leading priests objected and said to Pilate, “Change it from ‘The King of the Jews’ to ‘He said, I am King of the Jews.’”
22Pilate replied, “No, what I have written, I have written.”
@@mo2874 to your paramount comment: "Why would the Romans nail a persons feet to the stake/pole with one nail...but not do the same to the hands ( 1 n a i l t h r o u g h b o t h h a n d s ) ? Why separate the hands? *No, there was no extra horizontal beam and there were n o e x t r a n a i l s used to separate the hands. It was one upright beam, 1 nail went through the feet, 1 nail went through the hands.* That is consistent with the entire bibles use of a *single vertical beam/pole/stake from the Mosaic law, to the Persians, to the Romans...*
The only other thing apart from the pole/beam/stake was a sign above Jesus head...
John 19:19-22 New Living Translation
19And Pilate posted a sign on the cross that read, “Jesus of Nazareth,d the King of the Jews.” 20The place where Jesus was crucified was near the city, and the sign was written in Hebrew, Latin, and Greek, so that many people could read it.
21Then the leading priests objected and said to Pilate, “Change it from ‘The King of the Jews’ to ‘He said, I am King of the Jews.’”
22Pilate replied, “No, what I have written, I have written.”"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You are quoting a variety of biblical passages, but not the crucial ones.
According to his Gospel, John was an eyewitness to the execution of Jesus.
Does his Gospel speak of one or more nails in his hands?
Was the sign with the inscription "INRI" placed above his wrists or above his head?
John 20,24-25 ( N W T Study Edition)
"24 But Thomas, one of the Twelve, who was called the Twin, was not with them when Jesus came.
25 So the other disciples were telling him: “We have seen the Lord!” But he said to them:
“Unless I s e e i n h i s h a n d s the print o f t h e n a i l s and stick my finger into the print* of the n a i l s and stick my hand into his side, I will never believe it.”
Matthew 27,37 ( N W T Study Edition)
"37 They also posted a b o v e h i s h e a d the charge against him, in writing: “This is Jesus the King of the Jews.”
@@mo2874 You should have realized by now that your statements are in no way compatible with those of the apostle John in his Gospel.
In its publications, the Watchtower depicts Jesus hanging from a stake, with both wrists pierced by a single nail.
According to this, the Roman soldiers must have placed the sign with the inscription "INRI" above his wrists. However, according to the reports that have come down to us, the sign was fixed above his head.
Which people are to be classified as trustworthy? The God-inspired writers of the New Testament or a megalomaniac Mr. Rutherford, who had to admit that he had ridiculed himself because of his false predictions.
John 20,24-25 ( N W T Study Edition)
"24 But Thomas, one of the Twelve, who was called the Twin, was not with them when Jesus came.
25 So the other disciples were telling him: “We have seen the Lord!” But he said to them:
“Unless I s e e i n h i s h a n d s the print o f t h e n a i l s and stick my finger into the print* of the n a i l s and stick my hand into his side, I will never believe it.”
Matthew 27,37 ( N W T Study Edition)
"37 They also posted a b o v e h i s h e a d the charge against him, in writing: “This is Jesus the King of the Jews.”
Question to the great Bible scholar.
============================
Which people are to be classified as trustworthy? The God-inspired writers of the New Testament or a megalomaniac Mr. Rutherford, who had to admit that he had ridiculed himself because of his false predictions.
You should have realized by now that your statements are in no way compatible with those of the apostle John in his Gospel.
In its publications, the Watchtower depicts Jesus hanging from a stake, with both wrists pierced by a single nail.
According to this, the Roman soldiers must have placed the sign with the inscription "INRI" above his wrists. However, according to the reports that have come down to us, the sign was fixed above his head.
John 20,24-25 ( N W T Study Edition)
"24 But Thomas, one of the Twelve, who was called the Twin, was not with them when Jesus came.
25 So the other disciples were telling him: “We have seen the Lord!” But he said to them:
“Unless I s e e i n h i s h a n d s the print o f t h e n a i l s and stick my finger into the print* of the n a i l s and stick my hand into his side, I will never believe it.”
Matthew 27,37 ( N W T Study Edition)
"37 They also posted a b o v e h i s h e a d the charge against him, in writing: “This is Jesus the King of the Jews.”
Amazing
Stake----misstake.........or prheps varijant 3 be free..:)
A missing feature here is that both Almighty God, and Jesus Christ, communicate with the righteous and just by reading the Jehovah's Witnesses literature we can see that it is filled with righteousness...not filled with propaganda of an ancient Roman war lord who saw the potential of harnessing the early church to his own advantage. Now Wormwood is approaching, we do well to remember what Jeaus told the Seven Churches in Asia and return to the pre-Constantine Christianity...identify the church which best describes our own profile and follow exactly what Jesus tells their church. My studies tell me that the Jehovah's Witnesses will be associated with the highest righteous church because of their righteous stance on behalf of our Deity.
So when they misquote scholars and print false information about other groups, or lie about historical facts, is that righteousness?
@@LightoverDarkMinistry I don't see it in the same way you do. I actually read their literature and their guidance and find it righteous. Also their meekness and diligence is Biblically reassuring. You see, the world is in an absolute mess. The arguments, the hysteria, the ill-health, the corruptness, the hostility, etc. etc. The filth in the oceans, the poverty, the pornography, the constant chasing into war, etc. etc. is all anti-righteous and is drowning the human population and so the teaching of Jehovah's Witnesses is a breath of fresh-air...especially as I've discovered a wonderful science embodied within the Holy Bible that gives much support to the Jehovah's Witnesses. Jesus actually said to his faithful, they hated me so they will hate you...and that really says it all.
@@trevorbates8972 you think I hate witnesses?
@@LightoverDarkMinistry I was quoting Jesus and it is well known that people dislike the righteous behaviour of Witnesses because it conflicts with their pleasure and enjoyment of life, but behind the scenes evil is ticking away with their own plans and most can't see it...but I can tell you that the abuse of the righteous science embraced by Jesus Christ is why the population of Planet Earth is in such a terrible state of health both in the individual, in our communities, within our churches, and within our governments. Wormwood will have a lot to say about this...and the only escape plan is returning to the original teaching of Jesus Christ.
@@trevorbates8972 I asked you if you think I hate witnesses. You didn’t answer but it’s no, I don’t. Infact I love them. I love how zealous they are, how they seek to be righteous and sacrifice their lives for what they believe is right. I do however believe they are ultimately teaching a false gospels and are mislead by false teachers. Trevor you seem very zealous for God and his good news, so quick question, what is the good news?
Wild kingdom Hall Embowel movement 💩💩🤣🤣😂😂🤪🤪
Rib eye steak !
🥩
Cross is pagan and bible warrns not to use idols in worship
What evidence do you have that the cross is pagan?
@@LightoverDarkMinistry
THE cross you see on the steeple of a neighborhood church, on its altar and as pendants around the necks of many of your neighbors is actually a pagan religious symbol. It was revered throughout the pagan world long before the advent of Christianity. This is admitted by many religious and historical authorities, as we shall see.
In its edition of 1908, The Catholic Encyclopedia states in volume 4, page 517: “The sign of the cross, represented in its simplest form by a crossing of two lines at right angles, greatly antedates, in both the East and the West, the introduction of Christianity. It goes back to a very remote period of human civilization.” The book The Ancient Church by clergyman W. D. Killen concurs by saying, on page 316: “From the most remote antiquity the cross was
venerated in Egypt and Syria; it was held in equal honour by the Buddhists of the East; and, what is still more extraordinary, when the Spaniards first visited America, the well-known sign was found among the objects of worship in the idol temples of Anahuac. It is also remarkable that, about the commencement of our era, the pagans were wont to make the sign of a cross upon the forehead in the celebration of some of their sacred mysteries.”
But,” you may say, “did not the early Christians regard the cross as a symbol of Christianity?” No, they did not. It was not until about the middle of the third century of our Common Era that professed Christians began to use it as such. An Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words by W. E. Vine states on page 256 of volume one: “By the middle of the 3rd century A.D. the churches had either departed from, or had travestied, certain doctrines of the Christian faith. In order to increase the prestige of the apostate ecclesiastical system pagans were received into the churches apart from regeneration by faith, and were permitted largely to retain their pagan signs and symbols. Hence the Tau or T, in its most frequent form, with the cross-piece lowered, was adopted to stand for the cross of Christ.”
At the beginning of the third century Minucius Felix wrote to the pagans in Octavius and revealed the attitude that early Christians had toward the cross up to that time. He said: “Crosses, moreover, we neither worship nor wish for. You, indeed, who consecrate gods of wood, adore wooden crosses perhaps as parts of your gods. . . . Your victorious trophies not only imitate the appearance of a simple cross, but also that of a man affixed to it.” (The Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. 4, p. 191) True Christians never revered the cross or regarded it as a symbol of true Christianity
Many persons contend that the cross is used by the churches because Christ died on one. That is what the churches say, but it is not the truth. Admitting uncertainty as to whether Christ died on a cross, the church paper of the Evangelical-Lutheran State Church of Schleswig-Holstein, Die kirche der Heimat (The Church of the Homeland), remarked in its issue of August 2, 1951: “Whether the cross on Golgotha had a crossbar or not or whether it was just a plain stake, whether it had the T-form or whether it had a crossbar placed across the upright stake is hardly possible to determine now.”
That the word “cross” appears in many English translations of the Bible does not prove that Christ’s death instrument was in the shape that the churches claim. The word “cross” stands for a number of shapes. There is the simple upright stake, called in Latin crux simplex; the crux commissa, which was shaped like the letter “T”; the crux decussata, which was shaped like the letter “X,” and the crux immissa, which was like the letter “T” but with the crossbar lowered. So when the English word “cross” is used in Bible translations made by the churches, how are you to know which of these forms is meant?
The Greek word from which the English word “cross” is translated by the churches is staurosʹ, but to the Bible writers it did not stand for the cross that churches display as the symbol of Christianity. It meant a plain upright stake. On this the book An Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words by W. E. Vine states on page 256 of volume one: “Stauros denotes, primarily, an upright pale or stake. On such malefactors were nailed for execution. Both the noun and the verb stauroō, to fasten to a stake or pale, are originally to be distinguished from the ecclesiastical form of a two beamed cross. The shape of the latter had its origin in ancient Chaldea, and was used as the symbol of the god Tammuz.”
Note also what is stated in The Companion Bible, published by the Oxford University Press. On page 186 in the “Appendixes” it says: “Homer uses the word stauros of an ordinary pole or stake, or a single piece of timber. And this is the meaning and usage of the word throughout the Greek classics. It never means two pieces of timber placed across one another at any angle, but always of one piece alone. Hence the use of the word xulon [which means a timber] in connection with the manner of our Lord’s death, and rendered tree in Acts 5:30; 10:39; 13:29; Gal. 3:13; 1 Pet. 2:24. . . . There is nothing in the Greek N.T. even to imply two pieces of timber. . . . The evidence is thus complete, that the Lord was put to death upon an upright stake, and not on two pieces of timber placed at any angle
The cross used by the churches of Christendom has not the remotest connection with Christianity. It is instead a sacred symbol belonging to ancient pagan religions, religions that the God of truth abhorred and against which he warned the nation of Israel. (Deut. 7:16, 25, 26) It was a recognized symbol in the religion of ancient Egypt.
The Egyptian cross, known as the crux ansata, was surmounted by a circle. This combination represented the male and female procreative organs. Referring to the female symbol on this cross-the circle-by the Hindu term yoni, the book Sex and Sex Worship by O. A. Wall states on page 359: “The crux ansata (cross with a handle) was used all over the world from India, Assyria, Babylon, Egypt, to Sweden and Denmark (old Runic) and in the Western Continent. . . . It is the ankh of the Egyptians, the symbol of life, because it represents the feminine yoni in union with the masculine tau cross.”
@@LightoverDarkMinistrylet’s say it was a cross there’s still something that does not feel right about creating an image of someone like Jesus when no one knows what he looked like, especially when many believe Jesus is God
JW are right about everything
LOL. That's a good one.
@@BasicBiblicalTruth I wasn't kidding
LOL. Then you haven't investigated it at all.
Would you like to look at the evidence for cross vs pole/stake?
@@BasicBiblicalTruth Jehovah's Witnesses are right about the stake and they're right about everything else.
In your online glossary under “Torture Stake,” your GB say: “The rendering of the Greek word stau·rosʹ, meaning an upright stake or pole, such as the one on which Jesus was executed. *There is no evidence that the Greek word meant a cross,* such as the pagans used as a religious symbol for many centuries before Christ.”
Is this true? No. Here is what 3 Greek lexicons say:
Σταυρός means, “a pole to be placed in the ground and used for capital punishment, *cross* … a stake sunk into the earth in an upright position; *a cross-piece was often attached to its upper part (Artem. 2, 53), so that it was shaped like a T or thus: t.”* [1]
Σταυρός means, “a stake or post (as set upright), i.e. (specially), *a pole or cross* (as an instrument of capital punishment); figuratively, exposure to death, i.e. Self-denial; by implication, the atonement of Christ -- cross.” [2]
Σταυρός means, “stake, as instrum, of punishment PLUT. Art. 17.7 | extens. *cross, as punishment,* also fig. DIOD. 2.18.1 NT Matt. 16.24, Mar. 8.34, al. PLUT. Vind 554a ORIG. Cels. 2.56.28 (of Christ) etc. | fig. crucifixion of Christ, whose suffering on the cross became a means of salvation and redemption of human sin ATHANAS. Gent 1.16 etc.”[3]
Right away, your leaders are either liars or completely ignorant. Either way, it isn't good.
Now, since the word is neutral and can mean either "cross" or "stake," depending on the context, we have to look at other evidence to see if stauros in the NT means "cross" or "stake."
What evidence do you have that the word means "stake"?
[1] Walter A. Bauer, _A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature [BDAG],_ 4th ed. (Chicago, Il: University of Chicago Press, 2021), s.v. Σταυρός.
[2]James Strong, Greek Dictionary of the New Testament, (United States: Hunt & Eaton, 1890), 66.
[3] Franco Montanari, The Brill Dictionary of Ancient Greek (Leiden: Brill, 2018), s.v. Σταυρός.
The illustrations in the Kingdom Interliear Translation of a stauros omit the other illustrations of a cross from the same book on adjoining pages.
Not just the Interliear which says "stake" The Greek word stau·rosʹ is translated “cross” in many Bible translations. Notice, however, what various sources say about the meaning of this word:
“The Greek word [stau·rosʹ] properly . . . means merely a stake.”-Cyclopedia of Biblical, Theological, and Ecclesiastical Literature.
“A pole in the broadest sense. It is not the equivalent of a ‘cross.’”-Crucifixion in Antiquity.
“A strong stake, such as farmers drive into the ground to make their fences or palisades-no more, no less.”-History of the Cross.
“It never means two pieces of timber placed across one another at any angle, but always of one piece alone.”-The Companion Bible.
“An upright pale or stake . . . It never means two pieces of wood joining each other at any angle.”-A Critical Lexicon and Concordance
@@STROND There are illustrations of crosses in the same book that the one illustration in the Kingdom Interlinear was taken from.
Jesus was possibly crucified in the usual Roman way.
My comment was not about other books, it was about the illustration from the book that shows crosses as well.
Acts 5:30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree….
Romans 8:11 - God raised Jesus through the Holy Spirit.
John 2:19 - Jesus raised himself.
Welcome to Trinitarianism. 👏
@@timd3895 this why I say that a “God” wouldn’t write a book only to have people interpret it differently…not to mention a cult like the JW’s write their own version
Tree? Doesn't a tree have branches? What kind of tree doesn't? No pole but a cross.