An Expert Explains Mythicism with Dr Richard Carrier
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- Опубликовано: 30 апр 2021
- More than two billion globally worship or revere Christ as their savior. But was he an historical figure? While the mainstream view of scholars is that the Gospel writers must have based their stories on some charismatic figure, Dr Richard Carrier is one of a number of academics who argue the Messiah was only ever a myth.
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A colab of two personal favorites. Dr. Carrier helped me alot as I woke up from being a witness.
An especially hard religion to walk away from. Congrats and good luck.
I told a JW who called at my house, that I thought it unlikely that Jesus ever existed, and was a mythological character. He replied "Well you could equally say the same about Shakespeare".........to which I said that mythological or not, no one had ever suggested basing our lives around Shakespeare's works and it was unlikely anyone would be driven to kill people in William's name.
He walked off. He didn't know I was an ex JW and probably knew more about his 'faith' than he did.
@@stealthy1086 Citations need. State your proof.
@@stealthy1086
The key word here is "suggests"
@@stealthy1086 As I said "mythological or NOT" we should not be living our lives based around such madness.
@@rubiesbass9626 What are you talking about? Of course the key word is ‘suggests’! I’d say all of ancient history is suggestive. Historians look at records, then suggest a picture of what happened. It’s never irrefutable!
And who are you to suggest who we base our lives around? Everybody is entitled to their beliefs. Worship is an expression of belief and belief is the fruit of thought as is non-belief. It’s a feature of the way we think.
@@stealthy1086 I think the appropriate word here is "Gotcha". Consider yourself called-out and exposed. Delusion is not truth.
"How could anyone have come up with all this" is literally the silliest argument ever. Have these people heard of Tolkien? JKRowling?GRRM? People can come up with BETTER than that
Great point!! 👍
Long live Middle Earth !!!! ...mellon
This was an absolute blast! 💯 Thank you for this interview Lloyd. 🙏
Interesting how "God" only speaks through certain individuals instead of just talking to us. If I'm a god and I know that humans are often liars or delusional, then I wouldn't require my servants to rely on one human's word to know my will.
Why can't an all loving, all knowing creator god just look, see we are all In a muddle and just appear for all of us to set the records straight, give us all a revised rule to live by, and make known gods will and what god wants for us.
It just seems so Easy for the most high god to put an end to confusion and set us back on the right path .
I agree with all points made here...
And “God” has done just that. There is no need at all for Religion. Everything a human needs to know, “God” has placed in their hearts. Everything beyond that, i.e. doctrines, festivals, churches, leaders, etc. is just Man doing what Man does best. Vying for gain, for power, for control.
You don't believe in God, that's why you don't hear from Him.
I was evangelized at a young age, and developed a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, and once it actually took hold, he told me its totally cool, he believes me, and I can stop bothering with the whole worshipping thing, he says it's flattering but really unnecessary.
I just read Carrier's book "Jesus from outer space". Very serious and thorough it is. I checked all his references to the original Greek texts, and he never misinterprets anything. Indeed, when I re-read the seven original letters of Paul in Greek, Carrier's argument makes total sense. The "Lord" of Paul wasn't an earthly one.
@River Scott LOL! I’m still laughing at your pathetic claims to be a “world-class philosopher” and a “credentialed philosopher and psychologist”. Where are these “credentials” you’ve claimed to have? You can always tell a pathetic, loser beta-male when he tries to impress a bunch of anonymous RUclips posters with his “credentials”, and how he’s a really important guy, and a “psychologist”, etc. LOL! Better run and tell the manager that I talked mean to you, cowardly Karen.
This is one of those occasions where the more you learn the more you realise how little you know. Excellent, eye-opening content!
The more you know *~
That's called the rabbit hole🐇🕳
What this guy hasn't mentioned, is Christianity was first established in Britain. The first christian church was built in Britain in 37AD.
Checkout Edmund Marriage learning from history part 12.
@@dyfnwalmoelmud8362 No. The oldest church is in Jordan dating back to 300AD.
@@lil-al The oldest Christian church was built in Glastonbury in 37 AD by Joseph of Arimathea. The papal councils of the 1400s confirm this fact.
I’ve met Dr Carrier, serendipitously while on business in St Louis as he was passing through and he happened to stop by for a drink at the hotel bar I was staying, and we had such amazing conversation about all kinds of subjects. From theology to philosophy to lifestyles to booze to just small talk as human being enjoying a few drinks. Such an awesome gentlemen. Cheers, Lloyd and Dr Carrier! Good interview.
I'd love to meet him. He taught me a great deal about Jesus; maybe as a former string theorist I could teach him something new about cosmological arguments for god such as finetuning :P
@@haushofer100 Go ahead! Tell us more about how the universe is 'finely tuned' for life, when 99.999% is a lethal, radiation-filled vacuum and most of the matter is suns and black holes were nothing can live. Or tell us about how an all-powerful God of love created a planet where the living things in it survive by killing and eating each other, if they manage not to die from disease, earthquakes, tornadoes, hurricanes, killer lightning, famine, extremes of heat and cold, etc. Liars can claim anything, and fools can believe anything on faith, but “The burden of proof regarding the truthfulness of a claim lies with the one who makes the claim; if this burden is not met, then the claim is unfounded.” So let me know when you find some evidence to support absurd claims about an *INVISIBLE MAGIC SKY GENIE* , or that he impregnated Jesus’ mother 2,000 years ago, or that Jesus was a *VIRGIN-BORN DEMIGOD WITH SUPERPOWERS* and that his *ROTTING CORPSE MAGICALLY RETURNED FROM THE DEAD* before levitating bodily into outer space, or evidence for the talking snake, talking donkey, 900-year-old men, etc.
@@mythbuster1483 I think you understood me wrongly here; i don't actually believe these finetuning arguments are valid.
@@haushofer100 Fair enough! My bad.
Best Dr Carrier quote from the interview: “Faith traps people in a certain hall of mirrors of what’s possible and not possible. They have to escape first before they can begin exploring...”
Sounds like atheism to me
@@deus_vult8111 Yes, he doesn't believe in god claims just like you don't believe in Zeus, Vishnu, Odin, or the Flying Spaghetti Monster.
He's such a fanatic, and doesn't know the meaning of the word faith.
@@mythbuster1483 You presume a great deal here - many of us accept all gods (though not obviously parodic ones like FSM).
@@topologyrob Regarding "faith", believing liars doesn't get you any extra credit. "Faith-Healing Parents Jailed After Second Child's Death" - Time Magazine, 2014. Where did they get that crazy idea?!! "If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer" (Matt. 21:22), "And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well" (James 5:15). "And these signs will accompany those who believe...they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well" (Mark 16:17-18). "Nothing will be impossible for you" (Matt. 17:20). It's not like the bible contains proven lies by liars, right? Dr. Bart Ehrman, Distinguished Professor of Religious Studies at the University of North Carolina: "But good Christian scholars of the Bible, including the top Protestant and Catholic scholars of America, will tell you that the Bible is FULL OF LIES, even if they refuse to use the term." - Who Wrote The Bible and Why It Matters
That was fascinating. Could sense your excitement too 😁.
Could have listened to you both for hours. 😍🥰
Agreed! The video ended and I was so devastated it was over already!!
So glad to have Josephus explained. I was taught at school that Josephus's writings proved the existence of Jesus. I wasn't convinced but I didn't have the knowledge to refute the claim.
The only reason Christians cite Josephus is either 1) they don’t know it’s a proven forgery, or 2) they do know and cite it anyway hoping that others won’t know enough about the topic. Unfortunately for Christian fanatics, the Josephus manuscript was written by anonymous, biased Christian scribes who were notorious for forging fake Jesus references into the texts they hand-copied. It’s not the credibility of ‘Josephus’ that is at question, it’s the credibility of the unknown scribes who copied the text. Dr. Nicholas Peter Legh Allen, professor of theology at North-West University, a world-renowned expert on Josephus, says: “early Christian apologists felt a desperate need to manufacture such fabrications…They were at a loss to find any genuine extra-biblical / scriptural / historical references to convince their religious opponents that their assumed religious founder had even existed” - Christian Forgery in Jewish Antiquities: Josephus Interrupted, 2020.
Dr. Michael Martin, professor at Boston University, "Biblical scholars are almost in uniform agreement that this passage is spurious--a Christian interpolation [forgery]--and, consequently, that it cannot be taken seriously as independent confirmation of the historicity of Jesus." - The Case Against Christianity
Dr. R. Joseph Hoffman, senior professor in New Testament and Church History at Westminster College, Oxford: “the Testimonium Flavianum (Antiquities 18.3), sometimes cited as a proof of the existence of Jesus but today normally regarded as a Christian forgery.” - THE JESUS TOMB DEBACLE: RIP
Dr. Paul Hopper, Distinguished Professor at Carnegie Mellon University: "The most likely explanation is that the entire passage is interpolated [forged], presumably by Christians embarrassed at Josephus’s manifest ignorance of the life and death of Jesus." - A Narrative Anomaly in Josephus: Jewish Antiquities xviii:63
Dr. William O. Walker, Professor Emeritus of Religion, Trinity University: “It is widely agreed, for example, that material was added to the Greek text of Flavius Josephus in order to create a non-Christian testimony to the messiahship and resurrection of Jesus (indeed, some scholars attribute this material to Eusebius, the fourth century Bishop of Caesarea and eminent church historian).” - Interpolations in the Pauline Letters.
Dr. Ken Olson, Professor of Religion at Duke University: “The most likely hypothesis is that Eusebius either composed the entire text or rewrote it so thoroughly that it is now impossible to recover a Josephan original.” - A Eusebian Reading of the Testimonium Flavianum
@James Henry Smith The bible contains such great advice for modern life! "And these signs will accompany those who believe...when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all" (Mark 16:17-18). Works every time! "A preacher and another leader...died early yesterday after drinking strychnine at a service" - 2 Drink Strychnine At Service and Die In Display of Faith, New York Times. *WHOOOPS!*
@James Henry Smith Dr. Burton Mack, professor emeritus in early Christianity at the Claremont School of Theology: "The Gospels are FICTIONAL MYTHOLOGIES" - Who Wrote the New Testament?
Dr. Alvar Ellegård, Professor at the University of Gothenburg: "the Jesus of the Gospels is essentially a MYTH. The Gospels are largely FICTION." - Theologians as Historians.
@@mythbuster1483 And there are many more credible scholars and historians who will argue that the Gospels are historical biographies. Let's not play the special pleading fallacy game, acting as if these are the only credible people to speak on the Gospels.
@@CRoadwarrior I notice you didn't cite a single one, and just pulled a claim out of your ass---which is the foundation of every Christian claim from the gospel fairy tales. Even so, who is MORE CREDIBLE? 1) a named expert who we can verify wrote something, or 2) an ancient manuscript dated hundreds of years after the supposed events, written by anonymous, biased cult members, which contains proven fiction, forgery and fraud, as well as absurd supernatural claims that are overwhelmingly likely to be false? LOL!
Been watching Dr. Carrier on Mythvision where I'm also a Patreon. Thanks Lloyd!!! ❤❤❤❤
Excellent interview! I'll need to rewatch this a couple of times - so much great information. Thank you!
@James Henry Smith I'm guessing you're joking ...if not, this is the most unintelligent thing I've ever read
Wow! Just amazing! No one has ever explained to me how all these religions came about in the first place as well as Dr Carrier. This makes so much sense to me. Thank you for having this on the channel. Very illuminating and interesting!
_The Gospel According to Carrier_ is also excellent for that, if you haven't seen it.
Carrier has a MASSIVE amount of material on the subject
Richard Carrier always has historical goodies, and most of them are "uh ohhs" to Christianity.
That was one great way to spend an hour. Thank you both for the informative discussion.
BEST LINE:
Host: "Are you saying that my religion was lying to me?"
Dr. Carrier : "Of course"
It's actually creepy Richard who's lying to you
@@topologyrobWhy do you think so?
@@coleabrahams9331 Because he says things that are totally unconvincing to scholars.
@@topologyrobIt wouldn't be convincing to a field that closets itself from other ancient history and texts and has spent a century or more looking for the real Jesus in the texts while most of their researchers were bound by statements of faith as well as often genuine faith.
In other words, give it a few decades. I hear it's already very popular in Europe. Academia has the same shame-policed belief circles as everywhere else. It can take time for things to integrate, especially when most hirers have a prejudice against it.
I'm just using my own flawed judgment and you yours, but as I listen to Carrier responding to Ehrman, Litwa, and Davis, I'm more and more convinced by him that they aren't really grappling with his work, just dismissing it lazily and (for some reason) derogatorily. And I've spent much more time listening to them than Carrier until recently. I always took for granted that Mythicism was a little wacky. I shouldn't have. Even if it's wrong, it helps discussions of who the real Jesus could have been by shining light on many little-studied influences on early or proto-Christianity.
@@thoughtful1233 I really think you're reaching here. Carrier hasn't made a dent on the scholarly world, and he personally appears unhinged. His evidence is so far-fetched and arbitrary that no one takes it seriously. Cranks are a dime a dozen.
Wow, I never made the connection between Plato and the Vatican's MO. Fascinating! Great interview
Ya, he’s one a the very few early philosophers that spills the beans on how and why religions are created. I’m actually surprised that he was so candid in the Republic but then again not many people knew how to read in those days.
@Dharma Defender did you not watch the video? 17:25
@Dharma Defender huh? Whatever ..read the Republic
@Dharma Defender sigh, read it again. Specifically book 3 and even more specifically 3.414
@Dharma Defender of course you have and where did I say he was anti-religious? Reading comprehension, look it up.
Each Richard Carrier interview reveals more historical context, more strongly confirming the mythicist thesis. "Pesher" is my new vocabulary word now. Thank you.
When I left the Mormon church one of the first books I read regarding Christianity was written by Richard Carrier. Then I went down the youtube rabbit hole and I watched almost every speech he has on this platform. Really great stuff!
Thank you lloyd and Richard. Great interview!
I’m
Cc
I was hoping you would interview Dr Carrier on your channel and now you have!
Me too
I am thrilled to see my main man, Richard Carrier guest starring on my new favorite RUclipsr's show. I have all of his books, and love the way his brain works. Thank you for the interview, absolutely fantastic!
I really enjoyed the interview, it was informative, with a bit of humor thrown in. The relaxed style was inviting.
Big fan of Carrier. Love his no nonsense style and I have a few of his books.
Thank you both for a fascinating discussion.
This was the crossover I needed in my life. Thank you for the amazing (and long) conversation!
Phenomenal. Lloyd you need to have Dr Carrier on weekly!! This was fascinating and now I just want to read everything he's written!
This was so great! Thank you both for an excellent discussion.
This is a FANTASTIC interview!! Sooo much information, and so well explained! Thank you so much! And it's always refreshing to hear a researcher who makes all the disclaimers about "this we still don't know" or "there are other arguments that say..." Kudos for being so objective and willing to inform rather than to push an agenda! Science is great!
Fascinating conversation. Great work
Really great interview, thanks Lloyd.
Yes please escape first please then fine toon what you believe.
Enjoyed this info very much. Will listen to this a few more times so I can share with others.
Absolutely wonderful.. Enjoyed it. 👌👌Hopefully this will open mind of people before believing what Jesus said and wat Paul said and wasting time in one and only true religion😂.
Fascinating interview, thank you
Once again, a fantastic interview. Really gets you thinking in areas you hadn't before. I'm definitely going to follow up on more on what Mr. Carrier has to share, because he is such a good teacher. Lots of facts I hadn't known before, and some I always had an incling of, but hadn't seen laid out so logically and with supporting facts before. Thank you Loyd, thoroughly enjoyed this.
@Chris Sapp. Not so fast with the following up on what Mr. Carrier has to say. Problem is, Carrier's claims are suspect, since he is no true authority on the New Testament. He even made the mistake of claiming, in a debate against William Lane Craig, that Randel Helms was a "Biblical scholar." Really? And how is an English professor magically transformed into a Koine Greek scholar? LOL. Ad verecundiam fallacy all day. Then, in the same debate, Carrier claimed that the word "Cleopas" in Luke 24:18 means "tell all." Really? Funny how no Greek lexicon I've looked at supports that claim. So for me, Carrier's credibility is shot to hell. He has none. No one should take him seriously, making such elementary mistakes as that.
Thank you both. Enjoyed this. 👍
what a really interesting and informative saturday afternoon which was a bit dull and "long covid"-ish before. thx!
This is right up my street Lloyd. Great guest and fascinating conversation 😊
Cool video. I loved it!
Great interview! Really enjoyed this!
Wow! Fabulous content! Loved this discussuon
No one thinks Zeuss was real, but they had lots of stories of him doing things on earth.
On the historicity of Jesus is huge but the audio book is read by Dr. Carrier and its extremely digestible.
Indeed. I've actually listened through it three times, trying to digest and evaluate all the information. If you're interested in the topic, it's really engaging.
As always great to hear Dr Carrier talk. One of my favourite speakers on the subject
I wish this interview was twice as long. I wish you explored more into WHY religion particularly Christianity was created as opposed to HOW.
Hi Lloyd!!! Thanks for bringing on the honorable Richard Carrier! I don't know if I can handle two such great people all at once! (
Great interview. Thanks.
very interesting interview Lloyd. thanks for bringing this to our channel. this now make more sense....
Great conversation
This has been really useful. Thanks 😊
Your discussion about how many aspects of Christianity evolved is so interesting. I have learned a lot from it.
A really interesting and thought provoking conversation.
Loved this conversation, very very eye-opening!
Nature abhors a vacuum and that therefore our consciousness very quickly understands it. The emergence of our consciousness over the millennia has made it possible to gradually become aware of our own existence and therefore of our own finitude. This crucial stage in our development allowed us to feel and for the first time a new emotion, the fear of disappearing. To ward off this fear, all civilizations, even the most primitive, have all succumbed to all kinds of beliefs or superstitions (the only way to appease this natural anguish). Over time these beliefs have become more structured to give birth to polytheistic then monotheistic religions, then to philosophies. The common point of all these currents of thought will be to reassure, hope and endure the horrors of existence ...
Great discussion! Thank you both!
Carrier is great. Always check out his interviews, debates and lectures. Good questions, it's interesting to hear him debunk some of those common assumptions.
@James Henry Smith Dr Strange will take care of it.
What a great interview. I love listening to both of you. This is definitely going into my list of RUclips favorites. 👍👍
@James Henry Smith WHAT?! Hahaha! That's some funny shit. Put the fantasy books down and educate yourself. The supernatural doesn't exist. There is no "Satan" and there are no "demon monsters."
Wow. Do you also believe in minotaurs, gorgons, and unicorns?
I know fantasy is fun, but it's time to adult now.
Thanks for posting!
Fascinating interview!!! I loved every minute of it and learned so much! Thank you Lloyd and Dr. Carrier!
Excellent episode.
A fascinating discussion!
Great interview!
Very informative interview
Loved this interview, I could have listened all day! My daughter recently asked who Richard Carrier was as she'd seen my RUclips history (she already knows who you are Lloyd). One of Dr. Carrier's books will be next on my reading list #apostacypointsboost ;-)
Excellent stuff. Thank you both.
Great show 🙂
I always learn something new from Richard, such as the Sermon on the Mount was written by a Jewish philosopher.
Ok, one thing here actually makes me feel validated. When I was in college I studied engineering. I knew pretty much nothing about the humanities. A guy in my dorm wing was a liberal arts major in a pre-law program, and he'd grown up reading Plato and Kant and other such things. I took an interest and we did a lot of talking. When the spring semester ended he gave me a reading list for the summer. Plato's Republic was on it. I was all excited about reading this important and meaningful book. I got a copy at the library in Fort Worth, where I worked that summer for General Dynamics. I started reading, and after a while I realized I was just DEEPLY disturbed. Plato's "utopia" scared the hell out of me. So this discussion here tells me I was reading it right.
This interview is very interesting. I don't understand why it did not appeal to a wider audience. I for one, feel that I have learned more about mythycism and it's impact on Christianity.
I used to listen to JC but now I listen to RC.
I've read Carrier's On the historicity. And while some ideas appear to me, as a mere hobbyist, a bit far-fetched, I highly recommend it. Absolutely fascinating topic.
Thanks for this interesting talk!
@Language lover yes, the book is really good. Also because Carrier puts much emphasis on methodology. I also like his advocation for Bayesian inference, because it makes clear how your assumptions affect your final hypothesis. What I'd like to see more (in hus future work?) is what kind of methodology could dustinguish between apophenia and true patterns.
I recommended the book OTHOJ already to quite some people, as somebody who thought before reading Carriers work that mythicism was mainly bogus.
This is an amazing interview! I am a fan of professor Bart Erhman and how he explains a lot of what is being discussed here in a historical context. There is just too much evidence against Christianity as being the one and only religion.
First of all how many obvious charlatans and conmen swim up to the top of Christian churches.
Please don't compare Professor Ehrman with this charlatan. For more info read "Did Jesus Exist?: The Historical Argument for Jesus of Nazareth" by Bart Ehrman.
@@mystique-1337 I wasn't comparing him to Professor Erhman. I was merely saying that the same things they are covering in this interview are things that professor Erhman covers. I personally don't agree with him that Jesus was not an actual person. I agree with professor Erhman's conclusions.
@@mystique-1337 Why should Ehrman’s opinion on the matter even be considered? He isn’t qualified to determine historicity, his PhD is in theology, not history.
@@wantanamera Because he is simply stating what the academical consensus says.
Furthermore in a non-fundamentalist christian seminary or university they do biblical studies with secular methods (source criticism, form criticism, redaction criticism, tradition criticism, canonical criticism, textual criticism).
If you are interested in scholars specialized in the historical jesus see J.P. Meier, G. Theissen, Dale C. Allison, E. P. Sanders, G. Lüdemann (atheist), D. Flusser (jew), P. Fredriksen (jew), J. D. Crossan, M. Borg.
This was really great, Lloyd. It would be nice to have him back on the channel every once in a while to address various JW mythos!
you put some much thought in what you do on this channel
Kudos! What a treat! Great content and very useful information. It is hard to get friends and relatives to break free from their cognitive dissonance echo chambers. We need to figure out how to get this kind of knowledge, url resources, and message outto the masses attending Sunday schools. Perhaps lobbying for characters in TV shows, movies, HBO documentaries, PBS, BBC, etc. Thank you for publishing this interview on YT.
It seems to me like people of old used to be less obsessive about the literal truth of religious myths than many Christians are today. They added elements that made the story better, and if they thought the main mythical person (seen as the founder) could have - or rather _should have_ - said something that he wasn't reported to have said (no matter if he existed or not, or maybe was based on several people or older myths), they might add it anyway, because they found it consistent with the main message of the religion/philosopy, or what they thought _ought to_ be the main message. Same with the Buddha.
Or Socrates, who is used by Plato much in the same way?
It is like a rhetorical and literary technique.
But myths are not the same as lies even though the truth may not be literal. It is more like poetry.
Poetic truths, moral truths, philosophical truths, _may_ still be there ..
I read an article the other day talking about truth in relation to apologetics. It had something along the lines of, "Before, truth was what comported with reality, now-a-days, every has their own truth."
I recognize this not as "truth" but as belief. If someone is convinced, that is their "truth". I would say the closest we can get to reality is though the observation of our space using the senses and tool we have at our disposal and to share what we observe with others to see if it matches up with as many other observations as possible.
This is why education is needed in order to get people who are unfamiliar up to speed.
I feel this relates to the idea of "truth" in the article is closer to the idea of common sense or intuition; it doesn't haven't to be right, it just has to feel right to the individual.
The problem is when it seeks to stop deeper exploration by the self or from others. If we presume we know "enough", we are doing ourselves a disservice and increase our chances of life becoming mundane (a side effect of settling).
Another factor that may have played a role is "everyone" (people in groups you attend or talk to) openly (upfront and willing to share at any given moment) sharing similar (seemingly) opinions.
@@BornOnThursday Richard Carrier: "all matters of fact can only ever be known to a probability."
I have read a good deal of Dr. Carrier’s work, including “On The Historicity of Jesus”, “Proving History” and “Jesus from Outer Space”. They are available on Kindle and Audible, and they are well worth the purchase. “Jesus From Outer Space” is a great introduction to his work.
Second time watcher, Lloyd is a great guy, as is Richard Carrier. I love the open-ness of both, and their search for truth using reason, not blind faith. Thanks :)
Carrier is brilliant, articulate, and pulls no punches
The Plato idea of creating religion reminds me of Gmirkin's theory that the old testament was written in 300 bc in the library of Alexandria.
Absolutely loved this interview Lloyd. Your questions were great and the academic slant always leaves me wanting more. You just need Bart Ehrman next. 😜Thanks to you and the team for your work on this content. 👍
Very good video. Thank you.
I could listen to this conversation forever.
Excellent video!
Loved this!
So so interesting ❣️
This is very interesting.
none of this plays even remotely into my life (I don't eve really know what a JW is) but it was riveting. thank you to you both
I find this really interesting. I would be interested in reading the other 40 gospels.
Very interesting! Lots of laughs to. Thanks!
The virgin birth was question mark for me. I kept searching for self copulation in hermaphrodites to explain it. Lol
Could a person who never existed, affect humanity so much? Yes -Santa Claus
Bad example. Saint Nicholas of Myra was potentially also a real person, about whom various stories and myths grew up.
Ideals aren't a real thing but they can impact the world.
Excellent!
Thank you so much Lloyd for this, fascinating topics discussed here. Although I think the first century Christians would have been horrified to hear about the level of shunning Watchtower goes to.
Thank you very interesting ☺️
Back in the 80's if you tried closing your front door on a JW they would often jam their foot in the door so you couldn't get rid of them. Now if you try and debate them they usually can't get away quick enough hahah
Very enjoyable indeed 😃
I was into all this back in the 90s when there was no Prof Carrier. I was reading Gerald Massey, Alan Watts, Joseph Campbell, Elaine Pagels,even Freud. Just for fun, have a look at the Wikipedia entry on the Jesus
Thank you!