"It's common knowledge that Daniel is a forgery" - A conversation with Richard Carrier, PhD
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- Опубликовано: 11 янв 2023
- Bible fundamentalists like Jehovah's Witnesses take the authenticity of the book of Daniel as a given, even relying upon it as a foundation of Christian faith. But what's the scholarly view on its origins, authorship and historical veracity?
Richard Carrier is a world-renowned author and speaker. With a Ph.D. from Columbia University in ancient history, he specializes in the intellectual history of Greece and Rome, particularly ancient philosophy, religion, and science, with emphasis on the origins of Christianity and the use and progress of science under the Roman empire. He has authored On the Historicity of Jesus, Proving History, Sense and Why I Am Not a Christian among many other works.
#interview #bible
Links:
"How We Know Daniel Is a Forgery" by Dr Carrier www.richardcarrier.info/archi...
Wichita talk video: • Richard Carrier, Raptu...
Corresponding slides: www.richardcarrier.info/dooms...
Also:
Dr Carrier responds to apologetic attempts to refute his article on Daniel...
"Debating the Authenticity of Daniel: Methodological Analysis of Sheffield’s Case”
www.richardcarrier.info/archi...
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Holes in Daniel's prophecy were pivotal to me losing all confidence in Watchtower. Although I wanted to at least remain a Christian I knew none of it was true. Now an agnostic atheist.
Same here
Agnostic : "I know not if there is a God". Atheist :"I am certain there is not a God". "Agnostic" or "Atheist" are different meanings. It is not possible being the two things simultaneously ! "Agnost atheist" ? Frankly !
@@fernandocarloto2291 Atheist doesn’t mean “I know there is no god”. Atheist simply means you don’t believe in one. Not believing in god is not making a statement that you KNOW anything. It’s a lack of belief. Not a belief.
@@fernandocarloto2291 Agnostic is you don’t lean one way or the other because you are uncertain of what to believe.
@@fernandocarloto2291 one can say "I do not know and i do not wish to take a position". that is agnostic atheism. Gnostic atheism means you dont believe because you know there is no god. gnosis means knowldge, agnosis means ignorance.
You can have agnostic and gnostic theism as well. They are not actually diametrically opposed as one is a descriptor of knowledge and the other is a descriptor of belief.
The humility of Dr Carrier remembering his audience while saying the fact Jesus “might not have existed” as one option for the Jesus story can’t be ignored. I’ve gone down the wormhole of his awesome lectures on Jesus being fictitious and it’s very convincing! Can’t get enough of his interviews
EVIDENCE THAT THE CREATOR IS NOT FORCING HUMAN BEINGS TO HONOR and OBEY HIM AS THEIR GOD AND HEAVENLY FATHER
Christians, JWs, Atheists, Catholics, Agnostics, Born Agains, Muslims, Buddhists, Baptists, Hindus, Mormons, SDAs, and Fanatics of all Religions who are claiming that the Creator and God of Jesus Christ is NOT worthy and deserving to be respected and honored as the Most High and TRUE GOD are human beings who are free to live and exist on earth wherever, whatever, and however they want to live and exist until they stop breathing and turn into worthless and useless dusts on earth forever.
EVIDENCE THAT HUMAN BEINGS ARE INSULTING and SLANDERING THE CREATOR and JESUS CHRIST
Christians, JWs, Atheists, Catholics, Agnostics, Born Agains, Muslims, Buddhists, Baptists, Hindus, Mormons, SDAs, and Fanatics of all Religions who DECEIVE their own families, friends, and neighbors to insult and SLANDER the Creator and Jesus Christ and preach the LIES of the anti-Christs Pastors and Leaders of Religions about "Armageddon", "hellfire", "Trinity", "rapture", and "reincarnation" are human beings who are free to live and exist on earth wherever, whatever, and however they want to live and exist until they stop breathing and turn into worthless and useless dusts on earth forever.
EVIDENCE THAT HUMAN BEINGS WILL LIVE and EXIST ON EARTH FOREVER
Loving, kind, and submissive human beings who submit to the authority of Jesus Christ and believe his teachings about the "Kingdom of God" and "Resurrection of the Dead" will be honored, favored, and rewarded by the Creator with ETERNAL LIFE and existence on earth without sufferings, pains, griefs, sickness, and deaths.
The "Resurrection of the Dead" is the guarantee that Jesus Christ in the Creator's own right time, will resurrect back to life all loving kind, and submissive human beings who died even thousands of years ago like Abel, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, King David, his disciples, and many others so they can live and exist again on a safe and peaceful earth as submissive and obedient subjects of the "Kingdom of God" and fully enjoy his and the Creator's eternal love, kindness, generosities, compassions, favors, and blessings for eternity under his loving and kind rulership, guidance, and protection as the Creator's Chosen King and Ruler of the heavens and the earth.
The devil can be very convincing, that’s true…
Pretty much only Richard carrier thinks Jesus didn't exist.
His death by crucifixion is one of the better documented historical facts.
According to Ehrman, an atheist, there are some 30 independent attestation to his existence.
That's not to say Jesus was god/gods son/ an angel etc.
So Tacitus and Pliny did not know what they were talking about saying Christ was crucified by Pilate
@@mrshankerbillletmein491 I’m saying he has good arguments for those points. And I’m not taking sides as I don’t care either way, he will hold no divine power regardless for me. He simply makes a fascinating argument deserving consideration
"It's hard to make predictions...especially about the future."
Yogi Berra
"Always go to other people's funerals, otherwise they won't come to yours"
Yogi Berra
"Why buy expensive luggage? You only use it when you travel!" 😂
smarter than the average baseballer
Lloyd, thank you for sharing this fascinating and informative conversation!
Glad you enjoyed it!
Thank you, Dr. Carrier! Honest, plain truths that give perspective to history is always incredibly useful when examining the present day. Your intelligent words are a balm to critical thinkers who grew up trapped in JW dogma.
I disagree I think a lot of it will just make you more ignorant of history.
@@pleaseenteraname1103 If your comment is that religous dogma makes one ignorant to history... that's what I was trying to convey. If your point is that learning accurate historical truths makes you... more ignorant of history? than you've lost me.
@@jaredt.murphy8257 what do you mean by religious dogma? No I’m talking about Carrier and other Christ mythers like him, mostly what they do is just try do is find vague similarities between Jesus or some pagan deity, and then they draw these parallels based on very vague similarities, I recommend a reading Greg Evans book fabricating Jesus.Except they’re not accurate it’s just a hyper skepticism and trying to find any vague similarity or absolutely anything just a poke holes in people’s faith or not just in christianity, and scholars believe that Jesus was a actual historical person, I haven’t watched the entire interview yet but so far I’m not impressed.
@@pleaseenteraname1103 I've no stake in this argument. If you actually read the words of my post, it's clear. "Critical thinkers who grew up trapped in JW dogma" JW is shorthand for Jehovah's Witnesses, the sole focus of this channel. The dogma, JW dogma is the rules, specific interpretations, and controls exerted by that organization, which exerts a cult-like control over those born into that organization. Lloyd Evans releases content related to those looking to break free from that organization, as he once did.
@@pleaseenteraname1103
You are victim of the Halo and Horns bias.
This discussion is about Daniel. But since you don't like his view on a mythical Jesus he is wrong about Daniel, very illogical.
Very interesting guest, fascinating information. Thank you for this show.
Lloyd we need more of Richard on your channel. He is just amazing.
lol you people will believe anything to deny God. All he has is speculation and you think it is fact. Atheists are sad.
@@notstayinsdowns laughing at those who won't accept your delusions is a sign of mental illness
@@pmtoner9852 ,
So you need to quit doing that. Those that try to change the Bible are delusional.
@@notstayinsdowns I need to stop? Why? Are you about to have an independent thought?
@@pmtoner9852 ,
All you have is childish antics. Not surprised you didn't get the point the first time.
Excellent discussion. Thanks.
I bought Dr Carrier's book Historiocity of Jesus and it's phenomenal...
Why? His arguments are irrational.
@@skwills1629 why are they?
@@alasdairwhyte6616 - There are reviews of His Work Online that go into Detail. I can't on One Post here. It'd be too Long and I'd have to Chop it up. But if You are Willing to do some Reading, I'll tell You where to Find them. And they won't be Apologetics Sites.
I need to buy it
@@skwills1629 uh huh. So many arguments, but you can't seem to remember any of them.
Love Dr Carrier's work and love it when you work together on content. Its great to see you touch on this topic again as I thoroughly enjoyed your videos on the Daniel drama. Hope your 2023 has started well!
Lloyd,
Great discussion. It was great to bring a scholarly perspective from Dr. Carrier into the historical teachings of Jehovah's Witnesses. I really appreciate your episodes that cover the authenticity (or lack thereof) and inconsistencies of the Bible. I believe this is critical to establish exactly what the Bible IS and IS NOT. Once that is acknowledged, it helps to put into perspective the "interpretation squabbling" that is apparent among institutions (including Jehovah's Witnesses) that use this book as the very foundation of their religions. In reality, all of the confusion and disagreements regarding what the Bible says or teaches is to be expected when you consider the source. This has proven to be very profound to me.
Great interview! I've listened to Dr. Carrier many times but it was very fascinating to hear him through a JW-lense.
Dr. Carrier is an amazing person. I am glad that we (atheists) have someone like him on our side!
Always a good time when you have Carrier on.
This is off topic, I know, but the 2022 Service Year Report is out. There were 8,514,983 average publishers for 2022, which is 34,836 more than 2021. 145,552 were baptised, which means 110,716 Jehovah's Witnesses are gone
that's a good point
a fantastic trend
That definitely deserves a video.
If we can the numbers
@@beeftango3735 I'm not so sure that's fantastic in the way you may be thinking. Just applying a little math and knowledge here (perhaps inappropriately, please let me know what I'm missing if so): About 1% of the population of the United States dies each year. "Gone" in Geoffrey's post represents 1.3% of "publishers". So most of those people would be gone as a consequence of dying, not as a consequence of voluntarily leaving the faith. That's even more true if JW's skew old compared to the general population (like most highly religious groups), less so if they skew young.
One of your best I’d love more with this knowledgeable scholar.❤
Thank you so much, Dr. Carrier, and Lloyd, for the amazing video and the educated and educational conversation. 💐
Fantastic information. Thanks, Dr.!
Incredible stuff!! Thank you Lloyd for providing us this material. The links are well appreciated. To think, I got more from this one interview, than my entire youth wrapped in witness nonsense! Keep up the good work, and as always, stay safe and be well.
Well, I thoroughly enjoyed the video and the information brought out. 👍👌🤔
Growing up, I remember JWs saying that scholars thought Daniel was written years later ONLY because they couldn't accept the "fact" that it predicted the future. Same with Isaiah and the Cyrus "prediction"
EVIDENCE THAT THE CREATOR IS NOT FORCING HUMAN BEINGS TO HONOR and OBEY HIM AS THEIR GOD AND HEAVENLY FATHER
Christians, JWs, Atheists, Catholics, Agnostics, Born Agains, Muslims, Buddhists, Baptists, Hindus, Mormons, SDAs, and Fanatics of all Religions who are claiming that the Creator and God of Jesus Christ is NOT worthy and deserving to be respected and honored as the Most High and TRUE GOD are human beings who are free to live and exist on earth wherever, whatever, and however they want to live and exist until they stop breathing and turn into worthless and useless dusts on earth forever.
EVIDENCE THAT HUMAN BEINGS ARE INSULTING and SLANDERING THE CREATOR and JESUS CHRIST
Christians, JWs, Atheists, Catholics, Agnostics, Born Agains, Muslims, Buddhists, Baptists, Hindus, Mormons, SDAs, and Fanatics of all Religions who DECEIVE their own families, friends, and neighbors to insult and SLANDER the Creator and Jesus Christ and preach the LIES of the anti-Christs Pastors and Leaders of Religions about "Armageddon", "hellfire", "Trinity", "rapture", and "reincarnation" are human beings who are free to live and exist on earth wherever, whatever, and however they want to live and exist until they stop breathing and turn into worthless and useless dusts on earth forever.
EVIDENCE THAT HUMAN BEINGS WILL LIVE and EXIST ON EARTH FOREVER
Loving, kind, and submissive human beings who submit to the authority of Jesus Christ and believe his teachings about the "Kingdom of God" and "Resurrection of the Dead" will be honored, favored, and rewarded by the Creator with ETERNAL LIFE and existence on earth without sufferings, pains, griefs, sickness, and deaths.
The "Resurrection of the Dead" is the guarantee that Jesus Christ in the Creator's own right time, will resurrect back to life all loving kind, and submissive human beings who died even thousands of years ago like Abel, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, King David, Isaiah, Daniel, his disciples, and many others so they can live and exist again on a safe and peaceful earth as submissive and obedient subjects of the "Kingdom of God" and fully enjoy his and the Creator's eternal love, kindness, generosities, compassions, favors, and blessings for eternity under his loving and kind rulership, guidance, and protection as the Creator's Chosen King and Ruler of the heavens and the earth.
Super interesting, thanks!
I don’t understand how this information is so easy to find yet easy to ignore by devoted Christians
This information is easy to find because the devil makes it easy to find and understand. Christians ignore it because it is a lie from Satan. Like you said it's easy to understand.
@@alvindaughtry2168the ol’ “everything I don’t like is Satan” you guys really need to come up with a better explanation for all the holes in your story. Oh, that’s right. You can’t.
Wow! Mind blowing!
Well I brought up the many historical mistakes of Daniel when I was discussing with an elder, and he just waved it off like we know so little of the past so a future discovery will probably prove that the Bible was right all along. Yeah, can't really argue with that.
Thank you for an interesting and informative discussion, gentlemen.
Thanks Lloyd, great scholar.
Fantastic!!!
It's very nice to have a video that lines up with our own views..
I love how Dr. Carrier doesn't beat around the bush and instead uses plain words like "forgery." I get so sick of scholars who know better kissing up to believers by toning down the facts or finding hedge words to obfuscate what the facts are.
Very interesting.
From what I've seen about Richard Carrier, his mind is very very Hellenized.
Great interview Lloyd. There is nothing like listening to logically placed history as opposed to what the WTBTS puts forward. As I said before keep up the good work. Have Mr. Carrier/Dr. Carrier back for additional interviews!😅 59:03
23:10 hours 12thJan2023.
This is kind of random but is your profile picture of a baby owl flying? So cute.
@@annascott3542its an adult little owl!
This is a very important finding, since so many of the current Evangelical pastors are still predicting the Rapture and the Return of Jesus Christ basing their time frames on the Book of Daniel. If the foundation is false, how can anything built on it be true.
Thanks 👍
Apocalyptic writings was a literary style of those days, like today we have for example Sci-fiction.
EVIDENCE that RELIGIONS are WORSHIPPERS of SATAN and the ENEMIES of the CREATOR and his CHRIST -
Christians, Catholics, JWs, Muslims, Hindus, Mormons, SDAs, Born Agains, Buddhists, Baptists, Pentecostals, all arrogant, cruel, and hateful human beings who DECEIVE their own families, friends, and neigbors to SLANDER Jesus Christ and his God and Father and preach the LIES of the anti-Christs Pastors and Leaders of Religions about "Armageddon", "hellfire", "Trinity", "rapture", and "reincation" are the worthless and useless worshippers of Satan the Devil and enemies of the Creator and his Christ on planet earth.
EVIDENCE that HUMAN BEINGS will LIVE and EXIST on EARTH FOREVER
Loving, kind, and submissive human beings who submit to the authority of Jesus Christ and believe his teachings about the "Kingdom of God" and "Resurrection of the Dead" will be honored, favored, and rewarded by the Creator with ETERNAL LIFE and existence on earth without sufferings, pains, griefs, sickness, and deaths.
The "Resurrection of the Dead" is the guarantee that Jesus Christ in the Creator's own right time, will resurrect back to life all loving kind, and submissive human beings who died even thousands of years ago like Abel, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, King David, his disciples, and many others so they can live and exist again on a safe and peaceful earth as submissive and obedient subjects of the "Kingdom of God" and fully enjoy his and the Creator's eternal love, kindness, generosities, compassions, favors, and blessings for eternity under his loving and kind rulership, guidance, and protection as the Creator's Chosen King and Ruler of the heavens and the earth.
@ Lloyd do you know for certain that active JW’s watch your channel do you have metrics on this? It would be amazing if they did!
Daniel was written during the times of the Maccabees which is included in the Catholic Bible,
Dr. Richard Carrier always on point
This is fascinating, but frankly, Dr. Carrier’s explanation is like a run away train. LLoyd, would it be possible for you to break this down perhaps in a way that more directly rebuts the jw Daniel teachings. You’re a gifted teacher and you’re in a unique position to present this more clearly. Thx
Great video, I'm hoping in a future video you guys could cover the statue that gets destroyed.
For me, growing e Roman Catholic, I thought I was a believer . It took me until I turned 53 this year to gather the guts to tell everyone that I have been an Atheist for several years. I have a question for anyone reading this. Do you think that many people live their entire lives as believers, because they are afraid of what others may say and they are also afraid to speak their truth for fear that if it IS TRUE they will have consequences to pay for denouncing their belief? That was why I stayed quiet for many years
Good question. It depends on whether or not someone can stop to think critically. Most other JW's that I talk to, of which I am, don't see how fast their own defenses shut off their critical thinking. People are afraid of having their world view shattered. I thought I was cool with it, probably because it would excuse my "double life". But then one evening, while on shrooms, I got so scared coming to grips with my humanity, knowing that eternity was not "just around the corner", that God didn't just approve or dissaprove of my actions, but that he probably wasn't even watching, caring. No one was. Not for me or anyone. We are all individually alone in the end.This experience let me know that this fear will probably always be in the recesses of my mind. It also made me realize that as I poke and prod and at the faith of my friends I could very well be scaring the shit out of them. I'll continue to do so, but with much more empathy.
I'm a believer but I don't have any problem with taking the academic input in.
I know many believers that always struggled with doubts but were persuaded not to independently research anything and questions were blown off as leave it in jehovahs hands, all will eventually be revealed in his time. The group think mentality is powerful in fundamental religions. Opinions expressed that differ are instantly mocked as if you don't know what you are talking about. Fear of losing approval from ones family and friends that are "in the truth" is a hell of a thing. So many stay quite and bury the doubts.
Jolene you’re not alone in your lonely feelings within the Catholic community as a closet Atheist. Many are just going thru the motions just to maintain relationships with family and friends. Nobody wants to “rock the boat” and declare that they’ve quietly deconstructed and allowed reason to permeate their mind where only strict Dogma used to dominate. It’s a form of Enlightenment for the Agnostics or Atheists. It can be very liberating (mentally and psychologically in many ways. I was born and baptized and was a practicing Catholic for decades then something just clicked and it’s hard to unlearn what Critical Thinking Skills has illuminated. 🙏
I think there are many people who spend their lives posing as believers but don't really believe, just for the social benefits (a quiet life).
I don't think such people avoid speaking out because they think there is a possibility they are wrong and there is a god, I think it's purely social conformity.
I recently attended my mother's funeral in the UK. There was a female vicar and she said some goddy stuff. We sang some hymns, and had readings. I didn't speak out or say it's all nonsense, because that was not the right time or place. It was a nice service, and a nice way to celebrate my mother's life. Sometimes ceremony and tradition can help.
Later in the week, chatting with one of my brothers, and later again with an aunt (my mothers's sister), I hinted it was all nonsense and I didn't believe any of it (not specifically the funeral service, but just the whole god thing), and they quietly agreed.
Compelling evidence w/ historical facts. I recall as I was disproving 607 BCE was an actual date using scriptures, publications outlining the Babylonian lineage of kings & their length of rule (in the words of David Splane: Do The Math), I recall having ?’s last yr about the authenticity of Daniel.
One example is Jer. 46:2 vs. Daniel 1:1. Jeremiah said the siege happened in Jehoiakim’s 4th yr, but Daniel 1:1 said 3rd yr. The explanation or justification is “depending on what calendar is being used, they’re both correct.” OK, I accepted that; what I didn’t accept is what’s being outlined on this interview. The succession of King didn’t equate to undeniable historical records.
The in-depth that’s being discussed is mind blowing.
This was interesting. I have heard Dr Carrier and others on this topic but was never aware of the specifics of how it was taken by JW.
Seeing this interview, I wonder if the zombie apocalypse in Matthew (only) was supposed to be the “second fruit” of resurrection and and a sign that things had been kicked off to a hot start.
Armageddon has been cancelled due to lack of interest. Justin Porter ex jw ❤️
This is exactly what I needed years ago!! Now that I’ve already deprogrammed myself, this is just icing on the cake, the cherry on top, the candle on the cake, just all of it 🎂🍒🧁….just thank you🙏🔥💘Lloyd, and Dr. Carrier🥹☝️🙏
Alexander the Great was one of the most enlightened rulers in history. Did he wage "wars of aggression"? Why, yes! (what king or general, in those days, didn't?). But the lands he conquered were better off under his rule, than they had been, before. And he welcomed the conquered peoples into his empire as equals (which pissed off his Macedonians, no end: They preferred the old way of doing things---loot, slay, & enslave defeated enemies). And wherever he went, he built cities that were centers of learning. THIS was the man whom many Christians consider to have been an "ANTI-CHRIST," based on "Daniel."
Issac Newton was obsessed by Daniel. He studied it deeply in his latter years.
I’d pay to see him debate Thomas Ross over this theme!.
All the shorts caused me to watch this one again
Great video. Thanks
Question: Lloyd, your accent sounds exacly like the politician William Hague. No disrespect!!
I'm wondering, as a Brit if you and he grew up in the same area of the UK? (I like to think I can pidgeon-hole people) :)
"You have your average person who's getting their Ph.D. in Babylonian history..."
Don't I know it! It's getting so you can't walk through the quad without tripping over some bab his phud!
Bless you in the name of our holy savior Ghost of Kyiv!
Faith seems to be a very hard thing for most people.
Hi Lloyd, I followed you for a good while on another channel. Then you disappeared. Now I found you again thanks to RC.
It occurred to me that whenever people, such as William Miller, Charles T. Russell, Edgar Whisenant and a myriad others, take it upon themselves to scour the Bible books of Daniel and Revelation for hints on when the end of the world will come, all their convoluted calculations end up placing the end in their own lifetime. The end is always nigh! Coming soon! Funny how nobody ever seems to do the math and conclude, "oh, the world won't end for another 200 years, I guess I can rest easy." LOL
Conveniently the end is near my time as I became famous or semi famous. Of course not 400 years later when other dorks will be important
I grew up 7th Day Adventist who ALSO put a disproportionate emphasis on Daniel due to their history with the William Miller movement. But they see the critical passages being the great statue representing Babylon, MedioPersia Greece (of Alexander) and Rome.
But THESE are the most critical empires to come? Not the Mongols? Not Britain?
Some people were so smart to almost convence the whole world that they're the chosen ones and that the world should rever them as people of god. They can do no wrong and if they do, they're forgiven by their own universe creator god. Yikes!. The other 2 religions call them a) the chosen ones and b) the people of the book. My grandpa was one of them and he used to laugh at them and called'em cows. He called himself of the Benjamin tribe. Thanks for bringing history to light
The book of Daniel correctly recorded a fact that wasnt known until the 1850s, that Belshazzar was in fact the heir to the throne as he was the son of Nabonidus, who left Babylon for 10 years.
Something scholars didnt know as they believed the account of Herodotus.
More credence for Daniels authenticity. The evidence used to claim Daniel was written in the 2nd century bc is shaky at best. Daniel in fact did speak the dialect of aramaic and hebrew when he lived.
He says the book is about Antiochus, but he is not named at any point in the book.
So, if we assume this man is correct and the book of Daniel was written in the second century BC. How did the writers still get the future correct? Since the division of the Roman Empire, signified by the two legs of iron on the statue of Nebuchadnezzar's dream, did not happen until the fourth century AD. The two legs of iron were the Eastern and the Western Roman Republics which had split. How did the supposed writers in the second century bc get this right? How did they know about the ten kings? The ten kings represent a world government of the last days. The number 'ten' in the scriptures is symbolic for 'earthly government'. Whereas the number twelves is symbolic for heavenly government. How did they know that which is happening today with the world government having already been set up, as a rebellion, which was forshadowed by the events at Babel?
We know that Jesus is make-believe when the Christians imagined that he became the judge of the dead in the afterlife, like he's Pinhead in those dumb _Hellraiser_ movies or something. It's like how Dante imagined that a virtuous pagan Roman named Cato became the guardian to the entrance to Purgatory in his _Divine Comedy._ In both cases, the imaginary characters in the afterlife with the names Jesus and Cato bear no relationship to whatever historical figures answered to those names.
You have to wonder (sigh, yet again) why Jesus wasn't born in a time and place where they were writing on clay tablets. OR god could have told the NT writers to start on clay. (After all, supposedly the 10 commandments were engraved on stone - and yet this tablet in god's handwriting was lost along the way, yet again wiping out the omni/omni/omni claim.)
Why and who would believe these people who are "revising" political and religious history? They "research" writings of ancient and modern "historians" and make their revisionist conclusions. Don't they realized that the "current crop of historians" don't even agree? So 100 or 2000 years from now? the cycle will start all over again just like today.
Fallacious appeals to academic authority seem to be the main avenue of criticism against Dr Carrier's work
Josephus gives an account of Alexander the Great being shown the prophesy in the book of Daniel regarding the Greek king who defeats Persia. Why did Alexaner the great spare Jerusalem is a good youtube vid on this.
Why would Daniel use a Julian calendar when that wasnt invented until centuries later? There is evidence that a prophetic year was used in his writing, consisting of 30 day months. This was also used in Genesis and also Revelation, another ''prophetic' book. The decree is likely Artaxerxes decree in 444BC (it even mentions the wall of the city, which Daniel references). So 69 x 7 = 483 prophetic years = 476 julian years = AD 33. Jesus was crucified in AD 33.
I’m literally searching all over for a non interview oriented video where it isn’t assumed everyone read his article and already knows the argument. It’s frustrating when the interviewer doesn’t consider the pov of an audience not privy to a somewhat obscure body of knowledge.
Next week: Is Stanta Claus real?
Daniel couldn’t have known the exact date of the Messiah’s coming nor the fact the Messiah would come during the reign of the Roman Empire
So, how many people still cling to any sort of literal interpretation? Certainly no one I interact with in my life is in that camp. Are there really still enough of them to have any sort of major influence in the world?
I chat on IRC (yeah, I know - old fashioned) with a group of people scattered over the world. I'm constantly amazed by their perception of America as some bulwark of religion - this is just not the America I see around me here where I live (in Texas not too far from Houston). The people I live around and work with mostly strike me as people who just go about their business and don't pay religion any particularly big attention.
Forgery in god's word? It is insane!
You mean forgery in some pagan Jewish imaginary been yahweh the name of a sumerian pagan god who never existed. In the pagan zionist bible written by anonymous authors. Like all pagan religions are written by anonymous authors
I say beens sarcastically instead of beings.
This is shocking!!
It blows out of the water the new testament prophecies and Revelation, they are all failed prophets even the Watchtower is a false prophet because they failed way too many times.
@@simonj.1812after 63 yrs of jdubs, then sees this!? Convinsing proof? I've had doubts/questions. This? Script false prophets, yes. Scam/racket? Yep! I was just asked to come back. Fat chance!
The whole Bible just reads as a DnD campaign backstory.
The Bible hints it is allegory with parables so to creating historic is your fault of how the mind taught literal person's was literal stories when its what the mind doubts Imagination being fiction is your state still looking for dust to solve it.
Does this video explain what it is a forgery of? If the word is being misused (in the title!) then it is not a good advertisment for the coherence of the content..
It's self-evident really, but it's a forgery of a prophetic document purporting to be penned at a certain point in history by a particular person who, it turns out, didn't exist.
..and that original document is identified in this video I presume?
If it is then I'm interested but there are lots of videos on RUclips that don't deliver on what is promised..
The Forgery is in regards to the date written. It’s not a copy of something original that can be posted, you’re missing the point.
Not a good use of the word 'forgery ' then, as I suspected..
@@jakell99 if I wrote a document today and claimed it was from the 1500s, what word would you use to describe it? It’s not a 500 year old document, so it’s a forgery right? I don’t understand what your hang up is
No, he totally wrote it himself. Like Moses was real? Living in the desert for years on food dropping from the sky, yeah right.
Being 50 years old and witnessing so much of the documentary hypothesis uprooted one dig after another , discovery after discovery until even the father it's hard to take anything built out of the fankurt German school of thought and tradition serious.
Along with most of what rockerfellers early 1900-1960s archaeology. They did do a real number on it until the last 30 years.
The purpose of Daniel is mainly to support the victorious Jewish regime?
The Jewish rabbis have 4 ways of interpreting scripture, this comment deals with the "Remez" way.
The following verse is Jehova speaking.
Joshua 24:14. Now therefore fear the LORD, and serve him in sincerity and in truth: and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the flood, and in Egypt; and serve ye the LORD.
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How many times does he say "I am the LORD thy God who brought thee out of the land of Egypt" in the Bible? A lot.
What God did they serve in Egypt that he wanted them to put away?
Let's go back to the first chat between him and Moses.
Exodus 3.
13. And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Isreal, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them?
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"The God of your fathers"-Johsua 24:14.
14. And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Isreal, I AM hath sent me unto you.
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Already this sounds suspicious. Who is I AM?
John 8.
54. Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:
----
Woah. "...of whom ye say, that he is your God..."
55. Yet ye have not known him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.
----
"Yet ye have not known him..."
Jesus said it himself. Plain as day.
56. Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
57. Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
58. Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
----
There it is.
"I AM THAT I AM"
means simply,
"I AM THAT JESUS".
But he wasn't.
Exodus 6.
2. And God spake unto Moses, and said unto him, I am the LORD:
3. And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVA was I not known to them.
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Who then said "I AM God Almighty"?
Jesus.
Jehova just said in 3:15 that I AM is his name for ever. But he never used it again.
Jehova told Moses about Abraham.
Genesis 22:14. And Abraham called the name of that place Jehova-jireh: as it is said to this day, In the mount of the LORD it shall be seen.
----
That's called getting caught in a lie. Abraham did not know anyone by the name of Jehova, according to Jehova.
This casts serious doubt on the entire history of the Hebrews before Moses. And indeed, Jehova lied about it. Specifically, how they ended up in Egypt.
Isreal was never promised to Abraham. Jesus's kingdom is not of this world.
So does the Bible tell us what really happened back there with the Hebrews?
Yes.
There are prophetic chapters in the book of Daniel, and chapters about the events during Daniel's life. Those events are allegories to the true history of the Hebrews.
For example, King Belshazzar represents King Solomon. After Belshazzar's death, the kingdom was split into the Medes and Persians. After Solomon's death, the kingdom was split into Isreal and Judah.
Daniel 5.
26. This is the interpretation of the thing: MENE; God hath numbered thy kingdom, and finished it.
27. TEKEL; Thou art weighed in the balances, and art found wanting.
28. PERES; Thy kingdom is divided, and given to the Medes and Persians.
----
1 Kings 11.
11. Wherefore the LORD said unto Solomon, Forasmuch as this is done of thee, and thou hast not kept my covenant and my statutes, which I have commanded thee, I will surely rend the kingdom from thee, and will give it to thy servant.
12. Notwithstanding in thy days I will not do it for David thy father's sake: but I will rend it out of the hand of thy son.
13. Howbeit I will not rend away all the kingdom; but will give one tribe to thy son for David my servant's sake, and for Jerusalem's sake which I have chosen.
----
Daniel in the lion's den represents the Babylonian captivity.
Daniel 2:49. Then Daniel requested of the king, and he set Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, over the affairs of the province of Babylon: but Daniel sat in the gate of the king.
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Daniel 6:24. And the king commanded, and they brought those men which had accused Daniel, and they cast them into the den of lions, them, their children, and their wives; and the lions had the mastery of them, and brake all their bones in pieces or ever they came at the bottom of the den.
----
Ezekiel 26.
2. Son of man, because that Tyrus hath said against Jerusalem, Aha, she is broken that was the gates of the people: she is turned unto me: I shall be replenished, now she is laid waste:
3. Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, O Tyrus, and will cause many nations to come up against thee, as the sea causeth his waves to come up.
4. And they shall destroy the walls of Tyrus, and break down her towers: I will also scrape her dust from her, and make her like the top of a rock.
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Ok. So why were the Hebrews really taken to Egypt?
Daniel 3:6. And whoso falleth not down and worshippeth shall the same hour be cast into the midst of a burning fiery furnace.
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"And who is THAT God that shall deliver you out of my hands?"
Daniel 3:25. He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.
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Ok, Nebuchadnezzar represents Jehova, who decided that instead of killing the Hebrews, it would be even better to deceive them into worshipping him. They just might fall for it this time. They sure did. See Numbers 21:6-9.
The burning fiery furnace is:
Deuteronomy 4:20. But the LORD hath taken you, and brought you forth out of the iron furnace, even out of Egypt, to be unto him a people of inheritance, as ye are this day.
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Ok, the whole book of Joshua corresponds to:
Daniel 3:30. Then the king promoted Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, in the province of Babylon.
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Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego are allegorical to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
Matthew 8.
11. And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
12. But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
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That's why the Jews were special. They were the only people on the whole planet who refused to bow down to Jehova (Satan) 4000 years ago.
"Oh, he also has a picture of Obama near his desk. I thought I was the only one."
Before 1609, a geocentric system was common knowledge.
So much for common knowledge.
But…. Your holy bible is bluntly geocentric &the Earth is a flat thing with a dome over it with water above : this is the HOLY WORD OF GOD . Your point is pointless.
@@georgenelson8917
None of what you said is true. Men added those things. The Bible says nothing about the nature of the land, concaved, convexed, flat, spherical...It simply says God created the heavens and the land (Hebrew word eartz, from which the translators coined the word earth: eartz translates as land.)
God said he separated the waters below from the waters above. That's all it says. We now know what this means. There's enough moisture in the atmosphere to cover the planet in one inch of liquid water. The Jews did not understand and assumed God must have built a dome over the sky. This is beyond what the Bible said. The King James translators took this notion and mistranslated the Hebrew word, riqo, as firmament, which is false. The word translated into English as expanse.
What you've done is take man's errors and claimed them God's. No. These are man's mistakes, sometimes purposeful and sometimes in ignorance.
@@georgenelson8917 This is the beauty of the inspiration of God's word; He exists NO MATTER how silly or shallow mans' beliefs are!
@@peteryee4630this is the beauty of moving the goalposts whenever someone makes a good point that you disagree with
Carrier is young enough that it will be a pleasure to see his face when the prophecies of Daniel yet to come (as referred to by Jesus) begin to come to pass.
Yes Carrier will see it all . Doesn't matter how old he is. He will be at the Judgement on his knees. Carrier will be reminded of everything that he has said and done.
So for you all the failed prophecies in Daniel don't affect your estimation of those that support your "faith"?
@@alvindaughtry2168
Prove your "god" even exists.
Prove anything of your personality will survive your death.
@@occupyreality1830 What failed prophecies?
@@ReLair88all of them.
Test everything, hold on to the good and avoid every kind of evil.
"If you want to know if my teachings come from God do them and you'll find out."Jesus
Don't be too quick to throw out the bath water, the baby might still be in the deeper end!
If Paul met James in his life than maybe Jesus did exist. James was the brother of Jesus.
Sir, Jesus was a real historical figure. there is no serious academic debate about this fact. hth
@@bobbyologun1517don’t tell Richard carrier that 🤫
James was a common name.
The Bible is not journalism .
Good Point Made an Topics
We're Is Nearest Chicken Restaurant Near By?
Everything that is in the bible is there for a reason. Period.
Manipulation.
Yeah that reason is because the author lied!!!
@@LloydEvans how cynical!
@@bobbyologun1517it’s good to have some cynicism in a world where so many are willing to use ancient works of fiction to brainwash the masses.
SBF Is that you?
Those suggesting that Jesus never existed, that it was another person who gave the Sermon on the Mount. (Matt 5v1-21). Have, in the past , also denied the existance of Pontius Pilate. However, in 1961, in the town of Caesarea, 54 miles NNW of Jerusalem, a worn stone step was being turned over. On the reverse side was inscribed "Pontius Pilate, Governer of Judea".
The text also referred to "Tiberium", a large building that Pilate had dedicated to the Emperor Tiberius Caesar. Evidence always mysteriously turns up to confound those questioning the authenticity of the Bible!
gosh yes! The evidence for the talking serpent is sure to be found soon!
That’s funny, I’ve never heard anyone doubt Pilate’s existence
@@dayofthejackyl Hello there Sir, love the I.D.. Yes indeed, there's people out there that have denied pretty well everything in the Bible. The last one I replied to was a denial that the Israelites never did the 40 Year Walkabout.!
The I saw on Utube, a Joel P Kramer vid., apparently he endeavours to prove the accuracy of the Bible, as an Archeologist of note, where he found an ancient Egyptian Stele that had inscribed. "The wandering Nomads,". Who worshipped the God YAHWEH. (Jehovah). Along with the Egyptian symbols representing the Tetragrammaton, Which represents Gods proper name Jehovah. The Stele is estimated to be made in 3,400 B.C.E. !
Proving that the Egyptians were well aware of both Gods proper name, also of the wandering Isrealites.. Also putting to rest that the Name Jehovah was something a Medieval Spanish priest came up with. Not possible in the first place as it is in the original scrolls over 7000 times.! So, if it is in the Bible, Joel Kramer will try to find it.! Google him.!
Let me more clear I am talking about Nabonidus cylinder proof Daniel is true
I wish this guy knew how to lecture. I’m sure why he doesn’t. I just want him to lay out the argument point by point. I’m not a believer. I’m just a lover of history.
He does exactly that. He has many lectures on YT going back over a decade. How much more do you need to be spoonfed?
@@dayofthejackyl no. I shouldn’t have to listen to hundreds of hours to clearly follow his argument. That said I’ve listened 3-4 hours of his lectures which I believe is how i came to this conclusion.I left this comment ages ago but as I recall his arguments were all over the place. I wasn’t surprised when I learned he didn’t operate in an academic sphere. It was clear he was dealing with a less critical, less discerning audience.
@@TheMoonDejesusright. The “less discerning audience” that has no problem following his logic as opposed to yourself who after having listened to hours of discussion still can’t tell what’s going on.
@@dayofthejackyl i didn’t say i don’t understand. I said he doesn’t lay his arguments out well.
@@dayofthejackyl that’s the discernment I was talking about.
I don't know about "forgery." It's probably more like "fan fiction," only the Jews who came across it later didn't get the joke, and they took it for authentic.
Lloyd trying to indoctrinate Richard Collier with JW propaganda 😂🤣
The book of Daniel and its entirety was found with the Dead Sea scrolls... How did that happen if it's a forgery ?
EVIDENCE THAT THE CREATOR IS NOT FORCING HUMAN BEINGS TO HONOR and OBEY HIM AS THEIR GOD AND HEAVENLY FATHER
Christians, JWs, Atheists, Catholics, Agnostics, Born Agains, Muslims, Buddhists, Baptists, Hindus, Mormons, SDAs, and Fanatics of all Religions who are claiming that the Creator and God of Jesus Christ is NOT worthy and deserving to be respected and honored as the Most High and TRUE GOD are human beings who are free to live and exist on earth wherever, whatever, and however they want to live and exist until they stop breathing and turn into worthless and useless dusts on earth forever.
EVIDENCE THAT HUMAN BEINGS ARE INSULTING and SLANDERING THE CREATOR and JESUS CHRIST
Christians, JWs, Atheists, Catholics, Agnostics, Born Agains, Muslims, Buddhists, Baptists, Hindus, Mormons, SDAs, and Fanatics of all Religions who DECEIVE their own families, friends, and neighbors to insult and SLANDER the Creator and Jesus Christ and preach the LIES of the anti-Christs Pastors and Leaders of Religions about "Armageddon", "hellfire", "Trinity", "rapture", and "reincarnation" are human beings who are free to live and exist on earth wherever, whatever, and however they want to live and exist until they stop breathing and turn into worthless and useless dusts on earth forever.
EVIDENCE THAT HUMAN BEINGS WILL LIVE and EXIST ON EARTH FOREVER
Loving, kind, and submissive human beings who submit to the authority of Jesus Christ and believe his teachings about the "Kingdom of God" and "Resurrection of the Dead" will be honored, favored, and rewarded by the Creator with ETERNAL LIFE and existence on earth without sufferings, pains, griefs, sickness, and deaths.
The "Resurrection of the Dead" is the guarantee that Jesus Christ in the Creator's own right time, will resurrect back to life all loving kind, and submissive human beings who died even thousands of years ago like Abel, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, King David, Daniel, his disciples, and many others so they can live and exist again on a safe and peaceful earth as submissive and obedient subjects of the "Kingdom of God" and fully enjoy his and the Creator's eternal love, kindness, generosities, compassions, favors, and blessings for eternity under his loving and kind rulership, guidance, and protection as the Creator's Chosen King and Ruler of the heavens and the earth.
Because the story claims it's taking place in the 600s BC and was a true contemporary account of a guy named Daniel. It was written in the 100s BC, and is a story about a person who didn't exist.
Yeah, what he said
It was a falsified document when it was created. It's written to be a first-hand account of events which occurred hundreds of years before it was actually made.
The Dead Sea Scrolls are a collection of texts from between the final three centuries BCE and the first century CE. Daniel, having originally been written between 167-163 BCE, had copies stored alongside contemporary editions of other holy texts which survived to modern times.
Because parts of Daniel was written around 140 to 160bce around the Maccabeian wars and was later found in the dead sea scrolls
Not sure what point Dr. Carrier is trying to make. Anyone reading the Book of Daniel would quickly realize that Daniel, like Noah and Job are allegories. St. Jerome did not want to include the stories that make up the Book of Daniel in the Vulgate, only including them in the appendix called the Apocrypha along with the other non-canonical books of the Old Testament. St. Augustine held them as inspirational stories commenting that if the literal interpretation contradicts science and humans' God-given reason, the biblical text should be interpreted metaphorically. This is clearly a strawman argument against Christianity by presenting the untenable Fundamentalist position, held by a small minority of Protestants, as being representative of Christian belief and is disingenuous.
Yes, indeed. And neither materialist Atheists, nor fundamentalist Christians, "get it." A belief in Jesus does not imply an acceptance that everything in the Bible is true, any more than trusting Newton's Laws implies accepting the (absurd) physics of Aristotle.
''Anyone reading the Book of Daniel would quickly realize that Daniel, like Noah and Job are allegories.''
Apart from the millions of Jehovahs Witnesses who don't view them as allegories.
If you had the foggiest understanding of the book of Daniel it would terrify you. But that's a problem for you to deal with. I warn you not to ridicule what you don't understand. That goes for the JW's and all the other so-called 'prophecy experts'.
Nice well reasoned, logical answer without any appeals to emotion or similar manipulative nonsense, thank you.
False dichotomy fallacy states there's more than 1 conclusion that can be drawn in response to a single interpretation/assertion:
When the doctor states there's no evidence of Daniel's presence amongst Royals, He forgets that the narrative would be a great source of embarrassment for the Persians, resulting in obfuscation/destruction of records pertaining to him. Furthermore, the Persians have been trying to annihilate Hebrews (off and on) for millennia: it would be in their best interests to amplify Daniel's non- existence, politically, but not a peep. Poor scholarly practices/inaccuracies don't equate forgery. It is political suicide for the Hebrews to make "bogus" claims involving Royalty that would be summarily debunked: I think the good doctor suffers from the kind of myopia found with a lot of highly intelligent people, who have little to no real world awareness.
So we got two alternatives. the Persians totaly errased Daniels existance from the records and forged the history. they must somhow have found all evidence for his existance. exept the documents that the hebrews had. the second alternative is that Daniel´s is a later forgery. at the time where history beonde the living was legends and stories. told from memory. to me it looks like Daniel´s is a forgery. but can you find any evidence outside the Torah/Bible for his existance. made before the doctor say it was forged.
@@exploatores No, FWIW absence of evidence is not evidence of absence: I wonder how much cross referencing can be found amongst ideological enemies:for instance there's no other people's writings that confirm hebrews were enslaved in Egypt (bullying one's own people into promulgating a millennia long hoax is impossible given their own infighting) I'm satisfied there's enough proof against the Atheistic world view, which makes me think the miracles in the Danial narrative are not a stretch of the imagination.
If you're curious: there are 3 miraculous aspects to the exodus account: the plagues and the flight/crawl from slavery, Do you know the 3rd? I bet the Doctor doesn't.
@@exploatores there's corroboration BTW
@@elkeism so what are they
The guy constantly talks about “them”. “They” forged Daniel, “they” invented Jesus.
Let's have some clarity here. The Book Daniel, prophesied that the Iron in the immense image would fragment into constituent powers, but somehow continuing as one entity into latter times.
Now, whether one thinks this is a coincidence or not, Rome did fragment into the modern empires of Britain, France, Italy and Spain etc. Also, Rome unlike Babylon etc was not overthrown by a successive empire. Rather it self fragmented, but is now reforming again.
Somehow, these constituent powers, would carry on into the future, in which a rock "not" made by human hands would destroy these nations and the immense image.
Now, the interpretation of this scripture as being Rome and its later sibling empires cannot be disputed in this context.
To make matters more fascinating , these former fragmented powers are now (as I type) forming a new expanding empire called the EU.
The EU has grown to more than 27 nations and looking further afield for new members.
So, is this coincidence or not?
IMO this is Godly prophecy coming true.
This is the sort of comment you can only drop if you completely disregard everything Dr Carrier said.
@@LloydEvans But Dr Carrier admitted that he looks at scripture from a political and historical context, not a prophetic standpoint.
I'm just pointing out that the Roman Empire interpretation of Daniel immense image is watertight. This beyond dispute.
Again, coincidence or divine?
@@bunchlead In what sense is it "watertight"? You're also talking in circles. When Dr Carrier speaks of examining scripture from a political and historical context he is *including* prophecy.
@@LloydEvans The Roman Empire hypothesis fits perfectly. Daniel's Iron kingdom fragments and so did Roman Empire. The latter, is proven historical fact.
@@bunchlead Again, you're only proving that you haven't listened to a word Dr Carrier said. He commented that the Roman Empire was a thing when Daniel was being written, so there is no "prophetic" element whatsoever. All empires come to an end eventually and the collapse of the Roman Empire did not result in God's kingdom or the end of the world.
No it isn't. Elton and Bernie definitely wrote Daniel...😁
Why can't AI translate all of that stuff? Imagine how many useless theologians that's going to put out of work.
But Jesus said they would see the abomination of desolation as spoken of in the Book of Daniel. Jesus mentioned the Book of Daniel.
Because Jesus never really said that.
And if Jesus existed he would have likely been using Daniel as a way to legitimize himself, or if he did not exist the gospel writers would be trying to create a character to fit their scheme, and using Daniel was playing into what was interesting to the people at that time. Daniel would have still been written far enough back that most people could have been tricked into thinking it was ancient at the time of the first century. If you have someone telling you something is hundreds of years old or many hundreds of years old and no one is alive to tell you it is only a one or two hundred years old who would be the wiser.
Way to bring a knife to a gunfight bro
Yeah but the point is the Book of Daniel was most likely referring to antiochus epiphanes. This is a couple hundred years before Jesus Jesus made it refer to something in the future as if Titus was the one the Book of Daniel was referring to
The Book of Daniel says that he will enter the temple and place the abomination of desolation. Or the disgusting thing. Antiochus epiphanes according to the books of Maccabees desecrated the temple and set up an altar to Zeus and sacrificed pigs. Jesus, whether real or fictional in the Gospels mentions The Book of Daniel and tells his disciples that there will be the abomination of desolation as recorded in the Book of Daniel