The Book of Daniel: Prophecy after the Fact?
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- Опубликовано: 25 дек 2018
- Dr. Joshua Bowen, PhD in Assyriology from The Johns Hopkins University; ThM Old Testament, Capital Bible Seminary; BS Religion, Liberty University. Dr. Josh specializes on ancient Near Eastern languages, including Sumerian, Akkadian, Hebrew, Aramaic, and Koine Greek, and runs the educational RUclips channel Digital Hammurabi ( / digitalhammurabi ) with his wife, soon-to-be Dr. Megan Lewis (Johns Hopkins University).
Josh is awesome, I love the way that he knows everything about a specific topic but still accepts that he could be wrong.
And he's very willing to let us know when something is outside his area of expertise.
I think you've hit upon a winning formula here. Dr. Bowen is an endlessly fascinating source of knowledge and has a knack for explaining things in an easily digestible fashion. I'm one of his patrons and proud to be so.
Enkidu Five my first exposure to him and I’m certainly impressed
@@noohairdontcare You have great taste!
Dr Josh, you are a major asset to this community! Really enjoyed this conversation. Wonderful!
My wife and I really enjoy both of your individual productions and joint efforts. We love your chemistry and differing styles. We were both raised in fundamentalist households but doubted the historocity of all Biblical prophecies. So we really enjoy an in depth analysis in the light of historical facts. For this reason we would forgo the banter we so enjoy and the entertaining digressions in favour of a more cohesive delivery. We appreciate your work.
This makes my day.
Henry, I call my kitten crankypants when she gets fussy ☺️
@@johnnyrepine937 😂
Your talk of prophetic language reminds me of what I believe is called Nostradamus roulette. Where the prophecy is so vague with no ending that essentially you keep playing until you win, there is no possibility of being wrong.
I must say watching you have a conversation rather than a debate is extremely nice to watch. Great video Aron : )
Thanks Aron for having Dr. Bowen on to discuss this wonderful topic! You both rock!
Listening to these two guys explain “it’s ok to say ‘I don’t know’” is ducking inspiring.
My ducks are ready to become better people and improve themselves.
Yay Digital Hammurabi.
I really enjoy these talks. Deepens my understanding of this stuff which is always fun
Rodan Or when I'm tired of the gloom and doom of family separation, global warming and theocratic politicians and want something light like casual discussion on Daniel. But seriously Aron helps me understand a lot of topics that makes me a tiny bit less ignorant. Also have you received permission to post under that name seeing how Aron is Godzilla fan.
I watched this guy for 20 minutes and am convinced I need to spend more time, a lot more, listening to him.
I found this video so much more enlightening than the discussion on Non Sequitur. Thanks for introducing me to Digital Hammurabi, Aron!
I mentioned on Gman's channel that he had lied when he said, that you told him the coral was only 2" tall before the flood. He got completely and deliberately the wrong end of the stick as regards what you said about the erosion of the coral, and that it was only a few inches of erosion, rather than the height of it. I would never debate someone as dishonest, as Gman is. Keep up your great work Aron.
had to Google for that Gman channel and after finding it I concluded in 5 minutes I was wasting my time in spite of the contribution of AronRa.
it is just a big meshy presentaton.
I like to waste my time, but only on topics I like. topics brought neat and orderly for instance
Wonderful interview and discussion. Thank you Aron Ra for hosting this wonderful gentleman whose vids are simply enlightening and help to show what we do know and what we do not know when it comes to our histories, mythologies, and stories. Wishing you, your love, and family a most wonderful New Year. 🌻💞
Even though I am scientifically atheist, I find the Bible very interesting in that it is a compilation that has history wrapped in theological mysticism. We have many clues of how our ancestors used to think, live and understand the world around them.
As a creationist, or when I was one, I believed what I learned about the Bible even when it didn’t make logical sense because I hadn’t heard a more rational explanation. I think it just became easier to accept irrational explanations the longer they were all I heard.
What's really wild is how long this grift has lasted in the internet age.
Uh think you're on the wrong platform
The human brain contains the strongest hallucinogenic substance known to man, dimethyltryptamine.
NDEs are most likely due to a release of this chemical.
@Christ is king, people that believe in the flying spaghetti monster (your God of choice) see the flying spaghetti monster, in their NEAR death experience!
@@twonumber22 I think it's part of most human psychology to believe in things we can't explain or prove.
A most informative (and entertaining conversation).
Nice. Enjoyed listening to Dr. Bowen.
I find it odd that I have never read any prophecies that talk about man landing on the moon.
Man on the Moon?! _hoodathunk?_ ; )
ruclips.net/video/CgR7mQlus4k/видео.html
Well landing on a small light source and sign of the night is impossible without getting to heaven.
Nostradamus was good at that - making prophecies that could only be understood after they had already been fulfilled. Not much merit in that.
@@amandahuginkiss4098 Nostradumbass. I'm in favor of the cryptic prophecies of the Pythia.
@Hunt Simple Really? Which passage talks about us walking on the moon?
Yet again another great video. Good job aron
Thanks guys. 👍😎
Another point that might suggest a date later than the traditional view is Daniel's exclusion from the canon of Hebrew prophets.
Just found your channel and ive been on a binging streak. Ive been watching hours of your content a day to catch up. Keep doing what your doing. We need people like you.
So glad they talked about the prophecy about the statue in king neb’s dream.. I keep getting pushed on that crap by the Jehovas witnesses and every time I have explained it to them it goes right over their heads. So glad to have a scholar now explain this so much easier
Why would people want to lie to themselves and believe something that is not true?
I don't know.
But I know that someone as intelligent as my wife gets upset at me for pointing out the "how's and why's" of things that happen in the world around us. She gets quite upset at me when I explain things like why the sky is blue, or why the colours of the sunset are pretty reds and purple's... She says that my scientific explanations interfere with just "enjoying the beauty and the majesty of the miracles around us".
But to me, understanding the scientific explanations for these phenomenon help me appreciate it more than just "ooo, that's pretty".
Thank you both so much for the time and effort doing this. I always leave a little more knowledgeable than before.
The church I was raised into is really obsessed with that multi-metal statue, and they do indeed combine Medo-Persia, saying the feet of clay represent medieval Europe.
Pretty much all the churches do that
Love Aron's comment about the bus station; the less you know the more likely you are to have faith. Every theist should read and study their own religious texts. They won't be theists for long.
The book of Daniel was my wake up call from Xristianity to reality. Haven't looked back since.
What happened when you read Daniel?
It is so awesome when you guys can laugh together. Lightens the heaviness of the conversation. But on another note, always glad to listen to others who broke away from such rank and destructive superstition.
Dr. Bowen always feels as if hes giving too much info or going too deep and stops right when I'm getting interested lol. I understand why though. He's still awesome :)
Hello good sir. Thanks for posting
I actually have gotten Creationists to admit to me that prophetic accuracy doesn't count as proof for Yaweh.
It's just like when you ask them to give you proof that Creationism is true. It all comes down to just believe me, or burn in hell.
Which is rather redundant as their justification for hell also generally amounts to the phrase 'believe me'
"Keep studying. Pretty soon, you can be independant, temperamental, fundamental, right wing, radical, chicken eatin' Baptists, if you keep studying, okay?" --K.H.
Religion tried being law and punishment. Then Christianity decided people were donkeys to be ridden, if they follow the carrot on the stick good, otherwise they threaten with beating with the stick instead. If you buck them off they call you an atheist.
Just some guy: I actually have gotten Creationists to admit to me that prophetic accuracy doesn't count as proof for Yaweh.
Who would it count for evidence for then, because accurate predictions made centuries before hand of so many issues would tend to suggest some type of intelligence was behind it.
Just some guy: It's just like when you ask them to give you proof that Creationism is true. It all comes down to just believe me, or burn in hell.
If you want proof, ask Aron to explain why he is an Atheist who has never once witnessed science produce an act of Abiogenesis. Yet, we observe billions upon billions of acts of life giving rise to life (Biogenesis) all the time. Wait, the Bible teaches that life came from a living God. Why do you think science only sees hard evidence for Biogenesis, but not for Abiogenesis then? If Abiogenesis is not possible, there is no basis for Atheism whatsoever. Atheists must prove that life arises in this universe from nonlife. That is a minimal basis for Atheism, yet science has never once produced any such evidence of it.
Which creationist? Not this one.
Very informative. Thank you.
I really enjoy watching this channel
Really enjoyed this video. Dr. Bowen has a lot of amazing insight & knowledge, I particularly enjoy it when he focuses on a narrow topic, (in relation to the entire Bible) like a single portion of a book or "author". One area of the Abrahamic religions I find fascinating is how the bible we see today emerged. I can never get over how people have this cognitive dissonance where the Bible is concerned. 10 people witness a car crash and a store front window being smashed by a rock -- you will get 10 different accounts 5 minutes after the events, and we comprehend that this will happen with no argument. BUT for *some* reason, when it comes to the Bible people firmly believe that: no one ever messed with it, everything in it is true, it is eye-witness accounts recorded in a time when an incredibly small portion of the world population were literate, there was never a political reason/ benefit to a specific person or group to have a story was told in a certain way, self-righteous scribes/ monks never changed, added or removed words? It is amazing that anyone is able to break free of the hard-wired programming we in the Western & Muslim worlds receive from birth.
Nice to see a proper conversation
Good discussion. Learned a lot. Thanks
excellent and truly informative.
An Aron video? But I thought Christmas was yesterday.
A gift that gives on giving!
Aron is Santa Claus confirmed ?
It is an early 2019 Christmas video.
The 26th is Boxing Day. It is a traditional gift giving day in England.
G-man smiles when you've made a good point for the sane reason a boxer does when his bell has been rung..
If you guys meet irl, you should film yourself playing a game of table tennis and upload it with the title Joshua Bowen Vs AronRa!
The neat thing about writing prophecy is you can write just about anything and if you give it enough time you will be right. Like how many times has the Simpsons has be prophetic?
Dr. Bowen seems to have a military background. The milieu seems to have colored his speech. “Roger” and “copy” made my ears perk up. I LOVE he brought notes! Also I want to see whoever’s dog is hanging out in the room!
He said in another clip that he was in the Air Force years ago.
De. Bowen, next time , please don’t worry about including too much historical detail. I prefer that you have more.
Great interview!
A video from Aron is like a visit from an old friend
A point I keep coming back to with all of these so-called prophetic texts, and that was mentioned in this video, is: "Why would an ancient author be writing a document predicting events hundreds of years in their future?" To whose benefit would that be? It's laughably egotistical to pretend that a book such as the book of Daniel was written so that lucky readers living centuries (in our case millennia) later might have confidence that this author had some contact with a supernatural agent or something. That view implies that neither the author nor its immediate readers had any real idea about what the text really meant, and that the inevitable multitude of interpretations prior to the supposed "fulfilment" were all mistaken.
This is more obvious with claims about prophecies relating to Israel returning to the land in modern times. It just does the text(s) no justice at all. It pains me to see so-called "believers" disrespecting so badly the text they claim to hold dear. In contrast, as I stopped believing the Bible was supernatural and stopped believing in a god, the text became so much more interesting as a window into an ancient time, and the lives of real, ancient people. That beauty and richness is lost as soon as an apologist picks it up and starts spouting off nonsense about an ancient scribe somehow transcribing a prophecy that would have been totally useless to them and their readers, and so on for hundreds if not thousands of years! And the idea that it was somehow written expressly so that people in our time could be dazzled at a neat fortune-cookie trick, is just so obviously ego-driven to the point of being ridiculous. But I grew up believing this stuff, and was surrounded by people who were fanatical about prophecy. They don't seem to realise that their need for prophecy is an indicator of how unbelievable their worldview is. It's so liberating to leave that behind...
Great talk! Thank you!
Awesome video
As well as Ezekiel, the story of Abraham also clearly shows the ‘normality’ of child sacrifice to Yahweh. Of course, this culminates with the ‘ultimate’ child sacrifice to this blood-thirsty god, in the story of Jesus.
Theres actually a version of the story where isaac is actually sacrificed and never is mentioned again after that. 😳
I love that Aron seems to know the Dark Crystal Prophecy by heart...
Thanks you both for publishing this video. I enjoy the opportunity to listen to a scholar talk about biblical text scrutinizing it critically without using wish fulfillment. I really appreciate the both of you use language and conversation that a Layman would be able to comprehend. I would like that you both consider continuing these conversations as I find them enlightening. I like to ask the doctor how difficult it is to date text BC as I understand Jewish counting and number system was extremely confusing. If he would be so kind as to include this in a conversation in the future I would really appreciate it. Thank you Aaron. I would also like to know the status of your work on the project which I'm totally unable to spell here. When it is done will the average citizen be able to view it in any Manor. Even if I didn't completely understand it I would really enjoy seeing complete project in its enormity. I'm sure it will be astounding.
Great talk, get him on again.
Great Video
Great discussion Dr josh is awesome even if it's way over the head
One thing I mentioned to Paul Ens (through Twitter) was that I finally got that a lot of Evangelicals or Fundamentalists bail when they realize the scripture isn't historical. As a Roman Catholic, if I told my pastor that I couldn't be Catholic because Noah's Ark wasn't real, he'd look at me as though I'd lost my mind. G.K. Chesterton wittily put it, "The Bible is the riddle, and the Church is the answer."
To be honest, if I told my pastor that statement, he'd probably rejoice and show me the door. (But that's another issue.)
Also, that comment about Ezekiel and child sacrifice made the sacrifice of Isaac make sense.
From the bedroom to the dining room between the last episode I watched
'Sayeth I to thee, "What's up?'"
Somebody put that on a t-shirt!
Got a "Reserve your free bible today!" ad on this video, I see Google ads knows me well..
One more trip around the Sun.. Congratulations. Love you all millions
Hey Aron, who is Dr. Bowen???
LoL, good talk, loved it!!
7:22 - ""The more you know, the more you know you don't know!"" - A great truth from Aristotle. A great many of these people will be basing all of their "knowledge" from a single source, the Bible, which in itself is a wholly (holy) untrustable source! My knowledge of the contents of the Bible is not great, the letters after my name are for Archaeology and Heritage Studies, because of that I know two things*. There are a great many inaccuracies and contradictions in "The Good Book", and that you can't use said book or any single source as a basis for your knowledge; you'll never get a complete** understanding of a thing/subject, taking information from one place!
* I think I'm selling myself a bit short there, we could at least double that! :D
** Refer you back to Aristotle's quote.
Daniel could have been re-written to match the latter writing or the latter writing could have been made up to fit Daniel.
Yes first time I 've been this early
41:40 My RUclips New Year's resolution is to not see a total minute of G-Man all year long in 2019. So if that means I have to sit out of discussions and streams on other people's channels because they persist in including G-Man, so be it I will just not view those videos.
I'm with you. I'm totally over Gman. He has no respect and adds nothing to any discussion.
Ive always felt that way. But I gotta say, the discussion they were talking about was one the funniest things on youtube...a chuckle fest as Aron referred to it
If G is included in any video, I just pass it up.
Great video maybe one day can you do an interview with Dr. Eric Cline.
23:50ish their prophesies get better and more detailed over time. practice makes perfect
I really like your talks with this guy.
Edit: "For some reason, this is one they don't talk about in Sunday School." (re: Ezekiel 20:26) One rationale given for why it was okay to command the slaughter of the Canaanites (who, if I remember correctly, were among the first populations to develop a phonetic alphabet) was that they practiced child sacrifice, so they basically had it coming. This, e.g., is a popular belief among the Lee Stroebel crowd. So acknowledging that your own God condones the practice would be inconvenient, to put it mildly.
So true...... I'm a biblical scholar but I'm no expert in Daniel. I have no education in biblical studies or religion but I'm an expert in all things bible and evolution and cosmology and paleontology and .........
Huh.
@@davidwatson8118 it is commentary on how the experts are always careful in how they give disclaimers saying things like "to the best of my knowledge" where as those with no education will proclaim their expertise in all subjects.
@@osonhouston
Ok, gotcha meaning now.👍
and quantum mechanics. They're always experts on quantum mechanics too! :)
@@greggor07
And astro physics.
Those girls down south called him the viking lol. AND gave him an award! A video the day after xmas. You know he loves us.
I love the observation that the details of Daniel become _more_ precise, the farther away the "prophesied" events are from his own alleged lifetime. Even for a prophet, the best details should logically be in descriptions of events _within_ his lifetime. As Dr. Bowen said, when you let go of the supernatural presumption, it becomes fairly obvious that Daniel was actually written by looking backward through time to create the _illusion_ of prophecy...when it's really just a hazy (and often outright incorrect) retelling of history.
I like seeing you have a reasonable conversation with someone intelligible. Not that i found this one too be very enlightening, but i am glad to see you guys laughing and smiling instead of kind of sarcastic snarky stuff like with the crazy fanatics.
I wish he would have at least mentioned chapters 13 and 14.
hey what do you think of tge crater in greenland and graham hancocks work?
No one knows anything about the crater in Greenland, its all speculation. They can't even date it!
As for Graham Hancock.... He believes in reincarnation... Enough said.
There were by the mid-2nd century a lot of diplomatic interactions between Rome and the Hellenistic states, including dissuading Antiochus from attacking Egypt ; so are there more specific reasons why Daniel would not be referring to it?
I am a new subscriber 😀
I received this question from my religious friend
“1- you are listening to one side of the story
2- the prophecies of Daniel go way to end of 20th century: is he arguing that Daniel was written in the 21st century? “
How should I respond?
Thank you
As far as this discussion goes-- I think you really really need to discuss the Apocrypha due to its direct relevance of historical issues
You should introduce G Man to Dunning-Kruger. They'd have a lot to talk about.
Duh, Genesis is the oldest book. In the beginning Gawd did it.
Ojeda! Mmxx..hey rawstory had an article about the defect of religion s..
Are the “prince “ of Greece and Persia angels that have names like Michael and Gabriel ? Or are they just randomly mentioned
40:30 when you quoted The Dark Crystal ( my favorite movie) I came a little.
Did you know that Netflix is making a Dark Crystal series? And it will have puppets, not CGI!
Vlad Tepes Oh dear, that's a shame. Classics should be left alone..
It's my favorite movie too! I saw it when I was 9 ;-)
I never saw the ending to that movie.
@@justsomeguy2825 Watch it again, with your son if you have one ;-)
Every believer is an expert! So they say.
If as we say humans didn't have language ...would we need any religion ..?
@10:55
nice question: I would go for 1st Isaiah followed by Deuteronium,
basing this statement on what UsefulCharts says about that topic.
placing the books of the Bible in their historical context makes more sense to understand what they actual talking about then pretending it all came from one divine source in this or that order.Getting Daniel placed in the context of its days was a nice reward for sitting this video out, it made much more sense then the "lose canon" I got presented in elementairy school.
Biblical history always started at Genesis or Exodus and when lucky got to Samuel and Kings and then sort of jumped to the New Testament because Eastern of Christmas was coming, but it left out completely Maccabees leaving a very warped idea about the history of the Chosen People. But then that way of teaching also left me with a very warped idea about the history of my own country.
Hey Aron watch it! GMAN is right because the bible says it is correct. What else could you POSSIBLY need?
Nebacnezer was the ship in the Matrix. (I know it's probably spelled incorrect)
I prefer the Greek/Latin spelling Nabuchodonosor.
hmmmmmm why did Kristina Mendez (nee Hansen) known as the Wooly Bumblebee criticized AronRa
56:00 It might be really annoying to have these evangelicals lying about science and evolution, but they are doing us a favor.
They complain about how kids, when they go to college leave the faith, and I think there is a very good reason for this. They get to college and the learn the truth about what science and evolution actually is, they realize they have been lied to, and they stop trusting the liars.
Once they get to a place where they can learn the truth, they know finally that what they have been told is not true.
Got a YesHeis ad before this
I have to correct you on one point when they were sacrificing they're first born it was not to the Israelite god but to a Canaanite god named Moloc sometimes spelled Molech. A bit of proof is just 4 verses down from that verse.
Ezekiel 20:31: When you offer your gifts, sacrificing your sons in the fire, you continue to defile yourselves with all your idols to this day. So should I be consulted by you, O house of Israel? As surely as I live, declares the Lord GOD, I will not be consulted by you!
The idol of Moloc was a furnace in the shape of a minotaur that they would throw they're first born into. It also says in Leviticus.
Leviticus 18:21
You must not give any of your children to be sacrificed to Molech, for you must not profane the name of your God. I am the LORD.
After doing some research I found that the Israelites had started adopting the Canaanite pantheon of gods Moloc being one of them. I am in no way trying to defend Christianity but that's a big issue I wanted to clarify.
Love the videos never stop, please.
Pulses and water my brothers, pulses and water 😁
There's an important question that wasn't addressed:
Who let the dogs in?
Now for Dr. Bowen’s silliness about Tyre. As for Tyre not
being destroyed in Ezekiel 26, the narrative does not concern literal Tyre
there any more than it concerned literal Tyre in Isaiah 23-24-being that such
details map over to the Babylon narrative in Revelation 18. In fact, if Dr.
Bowen thinks those were local prophecies for Ezekiel’s time, then how is it
that Isaiah 24 paints it as an end time prophecy even more directly than
Ezekiel 26, expressing that God was concerned about his law still being transgressed
and his everlasting covenant remained broken prior to tossing the hoast of the
high ones into the pit for many days. This latter reference being revisited in
Ezekiel 38 as the sequel to the many days discussed as late as the time of Gog
and Magog because all these ideas were supposedly supposed to have been
fulfilled back in OT times, right, yet Revelation 20 again brings up the same
battle of Gog and Magog at the end of the thousand years past the second coming
of Christ as does Ezekiel 38. So, the problem with Dr. Bowen is that he does not
have a good understanding of how these prophecies actually work, because he has
taken no real time to study how they are interconnected from one prophet to the
next. And if Ezekiel is talking about literal Tyre, then Dr. Bowen needs to
explain how the King of Tyre was in Eden in Ezekiel 28. Clearly, that prophecy
was to be fulfilled in Ezekiel’s time too, right, being that it goes back in scope
to explain the origins of the fall of Lucifer in detail. Honestly, neither
Ezekiel nor Tyre was around back in the days when Lucifer was in the garden of
Eden. So, it is not difficult to recognize that this prophecy concerning Tyre
is not talking about literal tyre any more than Isaiah 14 and Revelation 18 are
talking about literal Babylon. Next he will tell us that the drinking from the
cup in Jeremiah 25 has nothing to do with the ancient Levitical law for judging
unfaithful women in Numbers 5 where this practice finds its origin in Levitical
law and how all this relates to Revelation 16 where Babylon drinks the cup for
real with the other nations that have commited whoredoms with her because it
fits squarely inside the NT model. Rarely can you get the proper sense of a
Biblical prophecy by trying to isolate it as a prophecy intended for some local
fulfillment. Most prophecies are far larger in scope than that.
Is it true to say that Moses is a mythical figure?
I know I'm coming from a place of ignorance cause I don't know much of this stuff, and I have alot of ignorant questions one of them is what the heck is Daniel talking about at "prophecy of end time" cause I dont know. This is probably a very general question.
Need an opinion on Daniel's statue vision again....the feet and toes of clay and iron, (partly weak and partly strong)... Recent fundamentalists attribute this to the 20th and 21st century European Union (revived Roman Empire) ....is this observation correct...??
Kristoff Taylovoski - The more vague such a prophecy is the better and the more time passes the set of possible hits grows. A prophecy is a wonderful tool of prejudices. Why should some telling after the fact have any relevance in the 21 century?
You can choose any nations you want, because it's vague.
The dating of Danimals? Radical!
I prefer the Crucifixion as according to Billy Connolly. It makes more sense.