New Shunning Changes Explained
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- Опубликовано: 1 июл 2024
- As a newly published Watchtower makes yet more tweaks to the Jehovah's Witnesses' now infamous shunning policy, I explain why these are not the sorely needed reforms former members have been craving.
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Hi Lloyd,
I’m a therapist from Australia who is also an ex jw. Any followers who are looking for support with their mental health, I would love to offer my services. With my background and understanding, it allows me to relate to my clients and for them to not have to educate or explain the nuances of the religion to their therapist. Thank you for your advocacy work. You continue to help so many people.
I went back after my dad died and went to meetings with my mom. Everyone there was very nice and welcoming. I wish I could fully believe these people, they’re the same people that lied, and led double lives growing up that are making up the congregation now. I at least was honest and was just who I am and I refuse to not be. My dad was just like the father in the prodigal son story, no matter what my status in the organization, he was always there and was always checking in on me. Miss you dad..
Big respect to you darling. Mo in new zealand. Xx
@@user-ut8xx9fw6c hang in there!! Totally been there and then it all clicked and was able to make it on my own. You’ll get there!! There’s a bunch of us out there!!
Please remember that cults use “lovebombing” to reel someone in. Once you’re part of the organization, they don’t care much about you anymore, because they have to go recruit new ones. Yes, there are some kind and caring individuals, but the org as a whole is not interested in you or me as a person.
Sorry for your loss. May his memory be a blessing for you.
They just love to love bomb till you're in then it's too late you're miserable just like them. Misery loves company. Sorry about your dad. Sounds like this cult we're not able to kill his natural affection for his child. That takes real strength of character
I was “removed” in 2018 when my non-jw father passed and I went into a deep depression and questioned my faith. Did I commit sins? Yes, was I sorry? Yes, however when elders came by to speak to me and my wife, all they cared about discussing was if I believe in the GB in which I stated clearly no that I follow Christ not men. All they did was get up and leave. Rumors then went around that I was an apostate. These people do not care about you as a person, all they care truly about is if you follow their GB (men). Its disgusting really. Since then my mother and daughter act like Im a criminal. This is a hate crime by this organization.
What will the new shunning law do to change this. Cannot undo past hurt. Crap!
@@serafin1352 yes I agree it's a hate crime
@@serafin1352 in 2013 elders had to swear alliance to the GB even if there direction didn't make sense from a strategic point...
They are proving themselves more and more like just another religion...
Don't be afraid of man Jehovah is with you and jesus is too forever
They just try to justify religion and use tactics to attack opposition
Be happy everyday because you can go on the path to live without the GB
GB offers A path not THE path
The holy scriptures of core values, principles and moral integrity is what you need
Add more to take care of yourself and your family more with other scriptures. That brings honour to Jehovah and Jesus.
Religion cannot provide all that to the individual. Hence high control high demand! Hence psychological warfare
You didn't commit sins. Those are stupid constructs designed to keep you in the cult.
Sounds like your only "sins" were missing meetings & reaching a stage where your faith was seriously challenged/ weakened. No one can grow spiritually without experiencing those things. To be punished while under severe test is cruel & unchristian. It is the classic control mechanism of the churches: you must CONFORM! It is NOT rhe way Jesus taught us!
Lots of active JWs are watching your video Lloyd. They really are.
Beautiful.
I hope so! Lloyd helped me wake up
Where do you think his pimo viewers come from?
From Toronto, Canada 🇨🇦
Yup. Lol. They are counting time!
I left the cult 37years ago and never looked back. I survived without any of them and am extremely happy I left.
Truely free. Have your own conscience. Unimposed.
“Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right.”
― George Orwell, 1984
💯💯💯
1984 and Animal Farm are playing out in real time these days
@@HSGAutomotive "These days"? - No, they always have, they just weren't as blatant and they didn't have as much tech for surveillance! Yes, they also were giving the peasants some more money etc. in years past, but over all it was always a rigged system :(
Exactly. Thank you.
I will always remember being taught that everything would come to an end in the 20th century. I was told I would never grow old enough to graduate high school and my youngest just graduated.
He said “ the governing body “ has decided! That says it all, no Bible scripture as back up. The GB is above gods word!! Thanks Lloyd for explaining it in detail.
Yep: “the Governing Body”. No more Jehovah.
Shunning is a hate crime
If only Jehovah’s weren’t duped and deluded and could see that.
Having led to suicides, mental breakdowns, homelessness, I wish Law Authorities could see that. 😢
@@christinesotelo7655yeah I really hope at some point we can criminalize shunning in an enforceable way. I would love if shunned kids had some form of legal compensation
Amen!
@@derekmaverick5986yes we should
Telling the followers how they must treat someone and saying that it their personal decision is a lie. If it is a personal decision, the followers would not be told what to do.
yes, IMHO the "personal decision" wording is only serving the purpose of dodging legal responsibility for the shunning policy
Thank you Lloyd, your info is always great. I've been "removed" for 36 years and I continue to be amazed at the shunning I still experience.
Me too, since 1976.
I’m happy with the shunning, don’t want anything to do with is doomsday cult
Thank you Lloyd. I've been faded for about 6 years now
"The Governing body has decided" = 🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩
Based on what scriptures?
Jesus wept.
I am from the Kingdom of Eswatini.I received a call this morning from an elder who disfellowshipped me thirteen years ago.I waited for my phone to stop ringing.I didn't pick up my phone.I am not interested in any nonsense he had to say.Leaving this cult was the best decision I ever made
Good for you. You made a good decision in not engaging with that elder. I did and it left me feeling very disturbed and depressed.
Well done!
Sanderson says "if they repent". Repent from what? Not believing the JW 'organisation' is a cult? That is not a sin, that is simply recognising a high control group and wanting nothing to do with them. There is no sin in asking questions and having doubts, especially when this religion has made more U-Turns than I can't even count.
Yes. Asking questions, critical thinking, debating, disagreeing, makes them mark you “Apostate”. Then your family is gone.
The minute you indicate that you think Jesus is exclusively directing believers and not the governing body of jw, you are out the door forever. That is the biggest threat to them and their cash cow.
This is exactly what they are trying to do - confuse the issue. Questioning one's religion is not a sin and it is not worth social abandonment by family and friends. It is not worth breaking up social bonds in society. This is the essence of Watchtower shunning Policy! They promote social discord in society; all governments should take note and stop financially supporting them.
Why are you a “Publisher” and not a “Parishioner?” 14:45
@@jakelynbrook they call them publishers because WT is primarily a Publishing Company so they named their acolytes “publishers” from way back when the magazines and Bibles first got printed.
These changes are not enough to get state funding reinstated here in Norway. I have seen the results of shunning. A close friend of mine was shunned from age 18 when she no longer wanted to be part of the religion. What followed was close to 20 years of anguish, self harm, hospitalizations due to self harm, several attempts on her life, and becoming so ill from the shunning she was unable to work. She lived in special housing where the residents are closely monitored due to self harm, her shunning alone must have cost the taxpayers a pretty penny. Today she isvthrough it, still shunned, but happy, have an education, is a home owner, and works full time. When JW sued to get their stipend back I was enraged. How dare they cause so much harm, and still stand there with their hand stretched out asking for government funds? Shunning is harmful, ugly, costly, and downright immoral. It does'nt matter if the person shunned is over or under 18 years old, the damage is the same. Also, how dare these predator protectors tell people that they are the gatekeepers to eternal life? Shame on them
Wow! That’s quite a story! I hope someone will write a book from that! It saddens me that more people do not have the means to sue for the damages caused by this horrible Org. Homes lost, properties sold, waiting for the “End”, the ds’fd people and shunning traumas, split families, hospitalizations, suicides, deaths from the No Blood doctrines, free labor, bullying, on and on. I am glad to hear she is thriving now. That’s a lot to get over. Usually takes a lifetime. ❤
@@christinesotelo7655 I told my friend to write a book about her story, she said no, she does not want to dwell on it anymore
Shunning is an evil practice of a religion that professes love for one another. Their practice and belief about shunning reflect their lack of total understanding of what love really means.
Well said !
Your last line really sums it up perfectly.
I grew up JW in the 1960s. As a young girl, I loved The Beatles. The JWs said 8 was worshipping false idols. Then I thought I would rather worship the Beatles than the JWs.
All the subsequent leaders of Watchtower have been and are dictators of faith. They are pretentious fanatics. With manic religious fervor they have hyped and condemned countless things that are innocent human experiences and inclinations.
By conflating what is simply admiration and appreciation of in your case, a musical group, their pompous self-righteous selves have superimposed their opinions onto the scriptures and have elevated themselves to divine status and keepers of your soul. They truly have made themselves into modern day Pharisees and religious police. And by falsely comparing their dictates to the voice of Jesus, they are blasphemers!
I was disfellowshipped five years ago when I was 17 for dating a girl outside of the church, acting out because my parents were not understanding and I had severe mental health crisis's that no one understood or cared to listen to. My only out was someone who understood me, and I didn't let her go. I was disowned and pushed away. I can't trust a human led organization to ever be empathetic enough. I needed help, not abandonment. To this day I feel orphaned. The grief had massive impacts on my life.
Send this to yr Family Dear, Im Sorri u have or had to go thru this.I mean yr comment to Lloyd send it to yr Parents
I hear you. I never trusted again either and as much as I tried to “belong”, I always felt like a misfit, an outcast. My husband had turned me in for disagreeing with doctrine and I was ds’fd. Then shunned. Lost everything. It’s years later and I’m fine and strong but there’s that wall I’ve built too. It’s a hurtful, despicable group. I’m writing about it. I have moved on of course but I’ll never forget. So hold on. Express it, teach others, write, whatever it takes. You are not alone. 😢
@@jillynyx3807 oh, they don't care. Have purposefully ignored me for years.
I am sorry you had to deal with unsupportive parents and a foolish community. Consider seeing a therapist. It helps.
It's evil, to abandon you like that.
I'm an so sorry you were traumatised in such a fierce, and aggressive manner.
Wishing you healing, on every level. 🙏🏻
The day of memorial I got a call from my "elder" brother inviting me to go to memorial and to offer a bible study with me. This is almost a word for word quote asking me if I wanted to study with him -- "A lot of things have been changing in the organization and I can now study with you. I figure, if it's okay to study with rapists and murders (at Folsom Prison) then it should be okay to study with you."
I didn't respond to his rude comment because I know that is how he thinks. However, after I got off the phone, OMG, what did my brother just say to me? That was hurtful and rude, not that it hurt me because I have a barrier but good grief what crazy thinking. So, since that phone call, I have not gotten a call to invite me over for dinner or just to check and see how I am -- nothing, not a word. Nothing has changed with shunning.
Wow, what a messed up message to receive. JWs demonstrating “the love that never fails”
When you step inside their building they can decide if they want to acknowledge you.Once you leave they have nothing to do with YOU Absolutely nothing has changed!
It remains the same. Just changing words. A word game. Shame on the GB!!!!
Why didnt they use their bible based conscience before?
That's exactly what I said to my Aunty who's in, that was telling me about the changes.
The old generation were set their ways, I think the new generation are more awake and are making the changes.
Also Lloyd this is the first video ive commented on,but ive watched many of your videos and am now starting to go back and listen to them again. I started waking up in November of last year and a good friend of mine told me about the arc and your channel. I just wanted to say thank you so much for everything! These videos and information have meant so much to me,you dont even know. Also through your work i have been exposed to so many other helpful people with channels or just great information including Chaka's newer channel. Ive listened to crisis of conscience and also combatting cult mind control because i wanted to learn more. There is just so much to take in and learn about the JWs and also real life as well. Im still pimo at the moment but ive atleast stepped down as a servent. Just trying to work my way out. Can't wait to be free. I know this channel takes alot of work,but it also shows you are a good hearted person who wants to help victims. Again thank you man for all you have done and continue to do.
Thanks so much for the kind words! I'm really proud of you for the courage you've shown in giving yourself permission to scrutinize cherished beliefs! Good luck with your exit strategy! 🙂
@@LloydEvans Your very welcome and thanks!😁
We ❤ Lloyd! Also welcome to our community ❤
@@AlyssaIrvine I ❤him too. Thank you! It is such a lie that people out of the cult are all bad. Just another damaging scare tactic.
Sending love!
The phrase "judicial committee" was a topic that was given some attention in the court proceedings in Oslo District Court this january.
I did follow the court proceedings in full. It is quite clear to me what they are attempting. 👨⚖
Yes. And it also shines a bright light on their lack of education. These men are not qualified to judge anyone, let alone counsel, teach, or preach.
They also questioned the phrase in the Australia royal commission as well…. It’s simply Goal post moving by GB…
I would definitely hazard a guess and say part of the reason they’ve implemented extra steps into ‘removing’ a person is to add to the trauma and emotional pressure and deter people from trying to escape via disfellowshipping. I know quite a few people who did something ‘wrong’ on purpose hoping to be disfellowshipped. One judicial meeting is traumatic enough but to do it as many as three times just allows them to wear you down more to show repentance and stay. IMO, this is just more emotional torture disguised as a ‘loving arrangement’.
Thanks as always Lloyd- you’re as on the ball as ever! X
They think by taking the word, “Judicial” out of Elder’s Committee, it will somehow be less traumatic. It won’t be. No adult (or minor) should be set before three or four imposing men (no women members for girls and women) to tell stories, cry, or repent. Some issues belong in the family or told to Advocates or repented to God alone, unless these be serious crimes which should be handled by Law. What good is a committee? It’s like being ripped apart by retired, bored HOA members for an imagined or minor infraction. Most “offenses” are “venial”, as a Catholic may say: smoking a cigarette. Went to a bar. Held a hand. Cussed. But the horrible stuff like pedophilia, is blamed on the victim with perpetrator protected. So what good is an Elder’s Committee Hearing or whatever it’s called now? Things that should be reported to police are still not going to get reported to police. These are uneducated, unqualified men to be allowed to counsel and pass a judgement, even if they don’t use the word, “Judicial” anymore! Do they think by taking away one word that they are being “Humble”? All of this is for Legal purposes, that is all.
Exactly , this is the part no one mentioned. I am messed up from talking to old men about my sexual experiences as a child . This makes me so sick
Hi Lloyd, you were the first exjw i heard, and you helped me get out of this awful cult Thank you 😊
No more marking talks? So sad for the narcissistic, power hungry elders that reveled in the mess and drama 🥲
Marking is being democratised, as Paul *evidently* intended.
In abusive relationships you don't need to say anything just the underlying coercive control will do the job to keep them shunning x
@@exjwtherapy1814 Exactly. It will be business as usual. These small adjustments don't fix the rot at the core of this toxic group.
Hey Lloyd iv not watched your stuff for a while. Last i saw of you, you seemed very down and going through a lot in your life, i have to say its a pleasure to see your face less pained and you back in business, keep looking after yourself and your lovely family. Great content as always, very well articulated.
Thank you for the update and sharing your opinions on their "changes" Lloyd. Totally agree with every view point you made. As always your time and dedication and research is so very much appreciated. Hope all is well and your beautiful girls are fabulous!
But what about the rest of us that WANT to be shunned ??????
They're not going to hunt any of us down. They will barely do the "in a few months" thing. They always had that ability and rarely if ever did it.
My sending out 37 page letters to as many JWs as I can was a great positive because it stopped people coming around and spying me under the presence of pioneer visits! Shunning in my case it is great!😂😂😂
you did more for me than my own father. thank you for your work, lloyd.
I'm 55 and spent my entire life in the Truth, It is horrible what life is like being shunned.
I spent 40 years in. I’ve been out for 5, and the pain has lessened, but it’ll never go away. My parents live 10 minutes from me, and it might as well be 10 light years. That shit hurts.
Likewise. It nearly destroyed me.
The act of calling them the Truth, will soon become an old habit. I used to do it too.
JW's are far from the truth.
YOU ARE IN A HIGH CONTROL CULT that has NO Biblical truth WHAT SO EVER!! Wake up and GET OUT of Babylon the Great, AND FAST!!!
the truth ?? Jesus is The Truth . You are welcome 😊
I love their "evidently" when citing a Bible verse to justify a policy change. Well it hasn't been "evident" to Watchtower for decades until now, or indeed these past two thousand years 🙄
Jehovah is very sparing with that new light of his.
Pants … beards … saying “hi” to the disfellowshipped … not counting service time … anyone can join the org at the last minute when the tribulation starts…
Every time I hear one of these I have to wonder what Anthony Morris ‘ blood alcohol level is
What Tribulation? Now that Armageddon is spiritual and just a place, a pit, and not literal... well gosh, what’s the tribulation for? That’s next to change. They don’t know what the heck they’re doing. It’s such a big mess!
I’ve noticed that they start feeding an idea or change and start making little changes, they’ve been talking a lot about disfellowshipping Norway really put the fear in them 💵 and plus they’re probably losing members I wouldn’t doubt that they will take shunning out leaving it up to your conscience unless you’re considered an apostate. Great video ❤
Yes, but anytime a person doubts or disagrees with even one doctrine, they’re an “Apostate”. It’s not a critical thinker’s religion. It’s a “unity at all costs” cult. WT is simply “tripping up the stairs” to stay on a red carpet.
Legal posturing. No demonstrative differences.
In my experience, you only have to stop going to meetings (no wrong doing, no disfellowshipping) & you won't hear from anyone again, its that cold, thats including family & who you thought were close friends.
Was interested on your take on this Lloyd. I still feel strongly that at some point in the future, they will likely do away with shunning altogether and just make it a conscience matter like they’ve done with other things (like blood fractions). Bottom line is no one, and I mean NO ONE, should ever allow a bunch of men living in a lakeside compound in NY tell you who you can and can’t associate with or have as friends, especially when it comes to your own family. If you do, you need your head examined.
That’s the problem! MANY of these folks would so benefit by having their heads examined PROFESSIONALLY and taking any help needed to fix problems. But these are gullible, vulnerable, problem-ridden people who fall for the quick-fix-Jehovah will fix it all because we’re right the world is wrong and will be destroyed method! This religion APPEALS to depressed people who want an END to the misery! Only, Armageddon and the End isn’t being empathized anymore, have you noticed? Now they are saying Armageddon is spiritual, not literal, and Armageddon is a “pit”! So they have changed wording on just about all of their destructive doctrines! It is the SAME Org I was in years ago, but now, word-maneuvering is at play to make you think it’s all new and changed. Therein lies the danger. It is not improved. It’s just a more modern trap.
💯 those that do, care more about their own "Assumed salvation" than anyone else.
funny thing is they have interpreted the bible as saying to shun so when they back track on that then they will be going against the bible THEY CREATED and then try to claim its NEW LIGHT
They're making it harder for the minors to get disfellowshipped because that's where the large majority of their newly baptized followers comes from. Nothing loving about this.
Thank you for continually shining a spotlight on them LLoyd!
I tested it out. Went to the kh/meeting. Treated me like I was reinstated, hugs, chats, smiles. Outside of that, still same.
Are you currently disfellowship?
I'm glad to hear that "simple greeting" can include a hug. Not that it means shunning isn't still bad, but I'm glad a mother might hug her own child without breaking the rules.
I got so excited when I heard that news and thought: I can see my brother again! But I’m an “Apostate”, so-marked by them years ago for disagreements on doctrines. So I still can’t get a “hi”. It re-broke my heart. 😢
@christinesotelo7655 Yeah, same here, i haven't seen my sister and her kids in years
@@christinesotelo7655 Same here. They aren't going to ever going to let me back. They know that I know!!
They shun me even though I have never been disfellowshipped or even been in a judicial meeting. If they don’t want me then it’s their loss not mine. I was one of the best Elders they ever had. I am a victim of a jealous egotistical lying narcissistic elder that they apparently prefer.
I am so sorry! Yes, it’s their loss.
@@karenwestberg5838 Yes, thank you ☺️ I believe the real apostasy has arrived but it’s not where they think it is.
@@tarrantcountykid same thing happened to me even though im not an elder!! To this day no one will tell me why they're shunning me!!
What's interesting is the micromanaging. Still a cult 😂
Being “removed” from the congregation is actually a blessing.
These changes mean nothing for those of us that have been shunned for decades already. Nothing changes for us and time is running out for many of us with aging relatives in the religion.
As someone who keeps up on the organization only because I have family in it, I was excited for this change but now I'm stressed and have anxiety after being invited to go out to eat. I'm worried about responding to unknown questions, what to talk about, the underlying agenda. For years I've been wanting a relationship and to spend time with family but I don't think it's real love or genuine interest.
It is love . But not as you know it ! 😮
@@htcwbd sometimes you make ur family and blood isnt thicker than water
A shame Raymond Franz isn't around to witness these changes.
Ray saw light decades ahead of socalled "Light bearers" , I remember the 1992 Light bearers District Convention
I don't mind your videos being long, Lloyd! Always a pleasure! 🔥👏👏👏
💯❤
I've noticed they have started referring to members as "Christians" instead of "Witnesses"
They didn't even bother to coin some intermediate label, like Wishtians or Christianesses. Shhhh! 🤫 nobody will notice.
I recall them referring to themselves as “True” Christians
@Jkh808 What a stroke of genius eh? It's not like any subculture who ever differentiated their group, with the 'TRUE' qualifier, was just bragging and banging their own drum. Not like they'd be spiking a massive red flag saying "self-praise is no virtue." OH Nooooo. 🙄
A Christian is someone that worships Christ. That's not what the jws do.
Yeah, all that change that was promised is really just a change in window dressing. Jehovah's Organization never changes.
How convenient that just at the same time they wanted to make a change, someone wrote in with an a random question asking about the very subject they wanted to change.
What they don't understand when you get disfellowship and you have been knocked down you are going thru a hard time and you have everyone taken away from you !! They are pushing you more into the world because you can't live life with out no one to help pull you up! If you had at least your family behind you helping you thru the rough patch there is a better chance you would come back!! Of course I was disfellowship lost everybody I got thru it on my own !! I WILL NEVER. GO BACK!! Can't believe I fell for their garbage!
Yes! Good for you! You get pushed into what you think is a world of wolves but they turn out to be a bunch of cuddly chihuahuas! You come out stronger and better and happier!
@@dstiffy1 CONGRATULATIONS! You sound like a courageous & strong individual. Take care.
Thank you Lloyd Evan’s! Been watching you for over 3 years and helped me move on from JW guilt trips and soo much more!
The last few weeks
My oldest sister after 35 years later of being DF attempted to reach out to me! Really? Back to the Rabbit Hole?? The elders even text me with scripture’s and an invite to the Hall.. blocked and deleted that text.
Just leave us alone
Been harassed over the years off and on by elders and my family as well
Traumatizing
So happy I have a Therapist
Lloyd. LDS Mormons made similar changes. For example, before 2023, LDS leaders used words such as Church Court, Excommunication, and Apostate; yet after 2023, language softened to words such as Name Removal.
I was marked, and no one told me.
My biological parents were marked because of their abuse of me and throwing me on the street, and I was not told that for some strange reason it.. included me. When an elder told me, I asked him in disbelief why I was never told, or why I would even be included. He told me I must be "very spiritually weak" to not know what it is (despite it apparently only appearing twice in public publications) I got a righteous fire in my belly and asked - "Respectfully brother, do you mean to tell me that if you asked every member of our congregation... that most of them are aware of this?!" He paused.
"If they are truly spiritually awake, then yes."
Traumatic! I’m so sorry you went through that! You will be (or are) so strong now. More than ever before, people are being misled, bullied by this Org and they won’t believe it til they experience it. It hurts to be bullied “in a loving, gas-lighting way” and thrown out and you don’t even know why. When I was ds’fd and shunned I told the Elders: “these are my friends! My family! They would NEVER turn their backs on me for disagreeing!” But they did. Overnight. They all did. I’m very sorry. Hold on. 😢
@christinesotelo7655 Thanks for saying that. I wish I could agree with you about this. I survived it, yes, in the same way that someone "survives" cancer. I'm not stronger, I am damaged, and the best case senario for my life is to spin it into something I've "overcome".
@@jaredt.murphy8257 Whatever you have to do to survive and succeed, you know best for you. Thank you, I really do understand.
lol I got df’d and no one told me. I didn’t realize until two months later when my aunt texted me that she missed me.
@@megan148 I truly hope you're doing okay. It's rough out here
Thank you again friend for your effort! You make a difference! ❤
Thanks for your amazing support as a member! 🙂
Great video!
Your right. They have only tweaked with the wording, but the evil, and personally destructive actions remain the same.
I'd done a Bible study for a couple of years, but had no idea about the shunning.
I got suspicious as I was getting discouraged from doing anything else, outside of the JW Community, so I looked things up online, and found people like you.
I'm elderly, and live on my own, so it would be very easy to be drawn in by all the love-bombing that goes on.
If you cannot disagree with parts of any teachings, and are punished if you do, then that's a dangerous relationship, with any person, or organisation.
I'm so grateful I got out before I was far too invested, and vulnerable.
Thank you for your videos.
👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻
@@diane4488 I am happy for you that your out of that destructive cult. Take care of yourself.
Brilliant, concise reporting as i have come to expect from you. Thank you.
I think they did the word change to „remove from the congregation“ in order to make it appear as if it were just a removal from kingdom hall worship and not a shunning on a personal basis when in fact, it‘s the other way around
I love (not) Sanderson's comment about "the loving efforts of the elders" in meeting with the "wrongdoer" more than once... brings back a memory of the case in Utah, USA, about the teenager who was r-ped by another JW, and was then made to listen to the audio of her molestation for hours, where the "loving elders" made a true "effort" to... help her? Assist her? Provide guidance? Refer her to services she might have needed? Ensure they had a good report for law enforcement in bringing the offender to justice? NOPE.
It was to assess whether she had enjoyed any part of the encounter, so they could disfellowship HER. This was HER judicial proceeding! Oh, yes, there was a settlement of an undisclosed amount, which I can only venture was very, very, very "good" for the victim - although surely she would have rather not have gone through all this. The "loving efforts of the elders" in looking for a "sin" where she was a victim is...
Well, I go back to another 2024 Watchtower, entitled "THE WATCHTOWER, Right and Wrong-A Guide You Can Trust." This should reflect how much I trust them.
What a horrifying thing to put this girl through! It’s unconscionable!!!
This is so traumatic and sad. And sick and twisted on the “Elder’s” part. Were the Elders ever “removed from the congregation”? I hope the poor girl is living and thriving and past the hurtful counsel of stupid men. That is so horrible. ❤
@@christinesotelo7655 I don't know that the elders' status was discussed in the media. That's more internal JW politics. I was too focused on the case itself from a legal perspective. Unless they were found criminally liable, I doubt it - and this wasn't a criminal trial - since they likely followed the guidance of the famous legal department.
I left the congregation at age of about 23 in the beginning of the 90s, I was an ministrial servant. My father was an elder. My two siblings also left JW. After that, I refused to talk to any elders on principle. I only spoke to my father because he was the only one I trusted, even as an elder.
My parents, including my father, never cut off contact with me. On the contrary, when I moved abroad, they visited me regularly and I visited them too. We always maintained a trusting and good relationship and talked a lot.
Even though most elders are brainwashed by the organization, there are still those who are loving and honest. Unfortunately, there was only one in our congregation, my father, but I'm sure there are more.
Nevertheless, for me the subject of JW is closed, and has been for years. And I'm glad I took the step. And I'm proud of my father, that he remained committed to his principles and loving until his death!
I wonder if the shunning policy was completely removed how many PIMO members would leave. My guess is many many would leave.
Narcissistic personalities actually enjoy drama and shunning and punishments. A lot would leave. No more drama. No cruelty.
I was disfellowshipped back in the 1990s and left for 7 years. I started to attend meetings again and it was 18 months before I was reinstated. Thankfully I am no longer a JW.
Re: the new “marking” arrangement… while it removes the opportunity for an elder or body of elders to punish someone they don’t like… haven’t they just sanctioned individuals or groups of individuals making those same choices? As if the cliques and classism wasn’t bad enough (i.e.: “strong” vs. “Weak” ones, etc.) now every individual can decide to “mark” whomever they want. In all the congregations where I served as an elder (and in Bethel, too, when I was there), few of your “run-of-the-mill” JWs had the spiritual discernment to accurately and fairly apply an arrangement like this only when it was warranted. So now, you’ll have various people in the congregation marking others, and creating further schisms and divisions - all left up to individuals… but using a work with lots of “power.” So now, you’ll have a sanctioned popularity contest using “marking” as a weapon… because we ALL know people will not discuss this with family members only. Seems like a circus to me.
I was thinking the exact same thing, this is on "Point"
I commented on this too! I totally agree. Bullying will skyrocket with “justified gossip” in order to make a “judgement”! 😮
It's middle school forever. But that is the level of emotional maturity that most JWs are stuck at.
I still been banished when I was 16 years old, been 10 years now. I'm 26 and it's like my mum and dad are strangers, mum didn't even tell my grandad was dying until a day before he passed
Lloyd, great thanks for this timely enlightenment through this good video. When deceptive matters need chicanery, artifice and craftiness, none does them better than the leaders of my former JW religion. Those leaders have got used to gullible men and women that swallow their deceptive bullcraps over a century. Here's a new dawn of enlightenments. No more hiding places for those Charlatans.
Oh, they’ll hide in plain sight. That’s why the beards. The pants. The casual attire for men now. The carts. The change in wording to “soften the blows”. Their hiding...in plain sight.
@@christinesotelo7655 Hiding in plane sights...for all men and women to see their foolery and inanity. 😃
As always well said Lloyd, keep up with exposing JW cult you do it so well!
Good summoning up Lloyd, you're right nothing has changed!
Money is the bottom line that was tbe only reason for these changes
"Removed" is even darker/cultish.
They're making it crystal clear. "This person is now gone to you."
The Scripture they used back in the 70’s was: “You are as one dead...”.
Great job Lloyd. Thank you.
Its shameful that they allow & encourage under 18yr olds to get baptised with there unloving heartless consequences, should a person actually want to grow up first & decide what they want there future to be.
18:07 We've seen the error of our ways; the abject harm We've been doing. So, no longer shall we disfellowship our wayward parishioners. From now on we shall *'squibblify'* them instead. This is a monumentally progressive step forward. It'll be so different from now on. There'll be a different spelling and pronunciation just for starters.
Yeah. Synonym for rat? Rodent. Still bites.
OMG! I was introduced to the idea of the prodigal's father who was "afar off" running to meet him 20 years ago. It was delivered by a so called Pastor in Christendom who was trying to help me overcome tremendous pain from being disfellowshipped. He was attempting to describe to me God's heart towards a repentant heart. How these elders and leaders in the JW camp try to present old ideas as new light is astounding!!!!!
You’re a leader in fair objective content on the WT policy. Thank you so much Lloyd. 😊
Thanks Lloyd! I really appreciate your take on things. Removed- disfellowshipped... it's all the same. And just like beards and pants it will take witnesses a long time to change how they treat people.
Wow. Hi Lloyd, it’s been a while. Thanks for sharing this. I just saw a cart across from the local piano. A friend played piano while I sang loudly & probably out of tune: 🎵 shunn shunn shunn you can’t see your daughter because of the elders she shunned you.🎵
It’s sounds so loving to judge one another! I think that’s what Jesus wanted us to do 😂
My relative who is an elder of some 30+ years says these changes - such as no reporting of hours required, beards now allowed, women in pants, a "hello" to the DFed ones etc etc is allowed because the GB wants to kindly help the bros & sis in their daily quest to carry out their christian ministry. I did point out that none of these "rules" that were in place for decades upon decades were scripturally based and were simply "laws of men" imposed on the global congregation. This went completely over the top of his head and kept insisting that nonetheless such changes showed how much the GB cared about the brothers welfare. I also pointed out that governments are looking more closely into the toxic mental effects the behaviour of the JW policy particularly regarding the treatment of DFed ones even as it applies to teenagers etc and that these changes that are coming thru are not so much about making it easier for the rank & file but more to quell the scrutiny- a public relations exercise- that is coming on the organisation especially in light of the Norwegian court case. This elder made absolutely no connection with these events and the organisations rule changes. Furthermore, he was actually unaware of the details of what the Norwegian case was about except that it was "unconstitutional" persecution by the government. I realised then that for many JWs who have invested /sunk many years into the belief system, that no matter what the GB says or does to justify its rules & changes in rules, changes in interpretations (such as 1935 now no longer being the cut off for anointing, the now convoluted "this generation" explanation and also whether citizens of sodom & gommorah might still gain a resurrection after many yrs of "Gods channel" saying they definitely wont to name but a few). Many JWs are firmly of the belief, and regardless of what contradictory statements and revisionist history the leadership comes out with, in their view, the leadership MUST be right. It HAS to be right. The GB say they are "God's channel" exclusively and so they MUST be. It cannot be any other way. If the GB came out and actually admitted error- which they absolutely will not - the JWs may start questioning their "authority even authenticity. Rather, the leadership simply dismisses any and all criticism as "baseless lies and propaganda or half truths at best" from apostates but at the same time rarely if ever actually addressing the raised matters. The organisation truly functions like the dystopian government in George Orwells "1984" where truth is what they say and when they say it is. And the people dont object. A side note on the beards - I note that since the lifting of the years held beard embargo- the GB seem to now be going to the other extreme- note Samuel Hird of late ( and others) looking like santa claus. Surely the reasons "Gods Channel" gave in banning beards for so many years are still just as valid now as they were then? What's changed Brothers?
If a person is disfellowshipped are they no longer your neighbour? The 2nd commandment is to love your neighbour?
I've been out for about 11 years and a former elder who used to be 'friends' with my parents and me at the time reached out through my mum a couple months back about talking since the shunning changes. I said I'd be up for a chat, providing he checked out the info on this channel and was willing to answer some issues I have, such as how witnesses are supposed to view their new world translation as 'inspired of god', when the people who translated it are by their own admission - not inspired, etc etc. Surprise surprise, no contact since.
I wonder if they will change the phrases disassociation or disassociate as well? Maybe they will say the individual has removed himself or herself from the congregation. Like you said just word games to soothe witnesses and be able to say they no longer disfellowship or view someone as disfellowshiped. Especially being able to say this to governments such as Norway or wherever else they are getting into trouble for shunning.
No matter how they change fashions or words, I think Governments are catching on.
@@christinesotelo7655 Totally,and hopefully a consensus is reached between them to have the org get rid of these harmful practices or not support them with funds or tax exemption.
It happened to me and I wasn't even baptized 🤬
When you think about it, REMOVING from the congregation is kind of WORSE than DISFELLOWSHIPING....
Disfellowshiping is the end of fellowship per say....
But REMOVING someone from the congregation is like getting rid of someone with disorderly conduct, a troublemaker, someone who is disturbing the peace, or engaging in verbal or physical altercations with a another person or a group of members in the CONGREGATION.....
Which is fundamentally CONTRARY to someone who has simply committed a SIN, such as having a CONSENSUAL sexual act with another ADULT without being MARRIED.
I think it's a desperation by the GB to try to save what's left or try to stop the bleeding, or try to stop lawsuits or change their image and get back their financial support or charity status they have lost or about to lose from local governments.
Because getting rid of the shunning policy all together will be detrimental to the Watchtowers survival, because many of the ranking files are still in the dark, those who are disfellowshiped will bring them light if association is permitted with disfellowshiped ones - and the Watchtower is desperately trying to avoid that.
The Watchtower editions we are seeing these days lack substance, they are simply subjective, they are just responding to critics, many of these changes are even causing divisions among JWs.
The GB have become like headless chicken running around in circles..
The fact is nobody needs to bring the Watchtower down, they are already doing it ALL BY THEMSELVES...
My mum was disfellowshipped for a bit back in the 80s. The thing is, no one spoke to me either. I was 10 years old. We’d go to the meetings and sit at the back. Not one person ever said hello to me or took time out to spend time with me.
The LDS/Mormon Church did a similar rebranding a few years ago making very similar changes:
Probation” was changed to “membership restrictions.”
Terms such as “jurisdiction” and “investigation” were removed.
“Discipline” was changed to “restrictions.”
“Disciplinary council” was changed to “membership council.” (The term “disciplinary council” presumed a need for “discipline” before the council had been held.)
“Disfellowship” was changed to “formal membership restrictions.” (“Disfellowship” connotes shunning and withholding fellowship, which is contrary to the intent of the action taken.)
“Excommunication” was changed to “withdrawal of membership.”
So let me get this straight ... disfellowshipped minors cannot even eat with their parents? How can loving parents turn their backs on their kids? I just don't get it.
I was an adult with two children when my JW husband turned me in to Elders for disagreeing with a couple of doctrines. I was ds’fd, labeled “Apostate”, he was told to shun me in our own home. No eating together, no bed sharing, no speaking, no interaction whatsoever. It nearly killed me. I ended up in hospital. Yes, it’s true. Imagine how hard that is on a minor. 😢
@@christinesotelo7655so sorry for you!!
"loving parents" wouldn't. Jehovah's Witnesses don't love their children.
And then there are elders to whom rules do not apply. I went to collect a pair of fingerless gloves I purchased from an elders wife. (theres alot of selling of stuff in the KH) Anyhoo, when I arrived, their DF daughter who lived in the cottage on their property was at their table eating supper with them.
Go figure! Sorry you had to suffer such abuse.
@@victoriahill7218sounds like they actually had a heart, but still so hypocritical to tell others not to.
Brilliant discussion as alwaysLloyd, thank you. My local Kingdom Hall still hasn't got the August WT........and at last the story of the Prodigal son has been raised, I've always tried to bring it up that the father didn't know if the son was repentant 😮
OH THEY DEFINITELY SHUN. I’m DF. My sisters and I went to very close family friends memorial, my oldest sister had an affair and never got called out for it, a sister walked up to me and asked if I was the DF’d one. Proceeded to walk away and came back with a random Watchtower and then walked back and shoved it in my face and said “You need to read this.” 😳
A few years ago, and few times since then, I discussed with my JW wife (long story, I am not an apostate or ever been a JW) how awful was that young people were baptized and then disfellowshipped after some mistake, like teens are prone to do. We also discussed how the Watchtower were losing a lot of people due to nonsensical rules that should have been fixed and/or removed because they are stupid, unnecessary and even unbiblical. Of course, I was told that I was wrong and those things would never happened.. then March happened, pants are allowed, beards seem to even be encouraged now, and even shunning is being somewhat lessened.
My next prediction: There will be some sort of Jesus birth celebration around September, maybe 2025 unless they dare do it this year - or if they dare make it in December! - since not celebrating birthdays (including Jesus') is a very controversial subject. We shall see how it goes.
BTW, I have not found the August 2024 of the magazine... but will keep an eye out for it.
They've already introduced a new song that sounds a lot like a Christmas carol. I think Lloyd did a video on it a few months ago.
@@bobdobbs8700 yep. That's part of my analysis for my prediction, among other things.
Hello Lloyd ❤
Lovely to see you as always 😊
In Ray Franz book he stated that if they received letters from elders about certain situations they would pose the situation as a Question From Readers. 😡
Back then they would also print the initials of the sender's name after the question. But things changed during these past 45 years.
8:06 We're setting up a meeting with a young person and their parents, to decide if we should *mind our own effing business.* Hallelujah! 🙄
I’m glad parents will be included, but in reality, it should stay with parents who are grown adults and perhaps in a therapeutic setting if need be. Sitting with two or more elders and flipping scriptures, a minor is going to AGREE to anything just to get them gone! That’s not love. It’s boring scriptures. I’m sorry, but to a minor, wouldn’t it be better to talk about future plans, college, interests, sports, journalism or whatever excites the minor?
@@christinesotelo7655 Amen!
Thank you for covering this. I am also outspoken here in Oregon USA about the JW’s shunning bullshit to whoever will listen.
My adult son is still impacted by all of his friends turning their backs on him when he found out it wasn’t true. He was in his early 20s at the time and he continues to feel that impact.
Thank you as always for calling out the JW’s destructive actions. Kind regards, Oregon USA.
Grants Pass? Anyway, yes, that cult is devious and destructive and I am also outspoken but no one cares. So I write. I’m working on a manuscript of my whole ordeal. Good luck to you!
@@christinesotelo7655 hey! Glad to hear we’ve got some ex JW backing here in Oregon. I am in the Portland Oregon area.
Feel free to keep me posted if you do publish anything or somehow get information out there about the cult. Those of us that have been inside are really the only ones that understand and can speak the loudest on it.
Take care and keep me posted. If you do publish anything I’ll back you 100%.
Watchtower twinned with North Korea
😮😮😮😮😮
Nothing new under the sun. They did the same thing back in the 80s.
Worse in the 1975 “End” years!!
Those elders questioning once, terrified me, at 60! Poor minors.
Religion is the bane of humanity.
All these comments break my heart and i share so much empathy with you all having being a victim of csa and being shunned at age 16. We do heal. Think of what you want in your life and find the part of you thar belives you are good enough, more than worthy for all of it. They cant define you anymore.
I process this as Watchtower saying ‘Hey, I’m still going to drive in the oncoming lane but I’ve decided to slow down some’.
Lloyds uploading 🎉🎉🎉
Being a Jehovah witness was exhausting, I’m glad I’m out of that nonsense! 😂
I hate being one.
@@commonsense5070 I totally agree. No matter how much of my time & energy I put into being a exemplary Jehovahs Witness it was never enough. I too am glad I am out of that nonsense. Take care.
Very useful. Thank you Lloyd.