Nice video, One of the problems encountered with the old stop was due to stainless being a poor thermal conductor - compared to aluminium. The 'nub' inserted into the lower bobbin gets quite hot when 'nubies' (Generally, but not exclusively blokes under 25), abseil too fast on dry rope, this glazes a stripe down one side of the rope. I remember back in the day, someone installing a small thermocouple into a hole drilled not quite all the way through the stainless nub, this recorded temperatures capable of melting the nylon rope. I wonder if the new stainless bobbins will exhibit similar problems in the really dry caves you occasionally visit... I cannot believe that Petzl wont have looked into this, the stainless could more exotic or the heat may be generated over a larger area than on the old stop, but worth looking out for.
Thank you for the useful video! Any news on the wear of the SS bobbins? I still use simple, but i think that stop could effectively be safer in many situations.
We call it the Petzl Slip. Unfortunately I have to refer to the manual because the device in this video is used in a wrong and possibly dangerous way. 1:51 I'm pretty sure they will not allow to use the additional braking carabiner in the demi-rond with the new product. The possibility to block the descender upside down in the carabiner must be checked. But you learned fast: 3:15
Adler K You are correct that Petzl discourages using a braking carabiner directly on the demi-rond. Many cavers still do this anyway and use extra caution when unweighting the descender to ensure it doesn’t get hooked under the braking biner. I demonstrate this in my bobbin tutorial.
Full leathers and caving helmet, LOL ! Nice review. My brother in-law uses short micro rack with 2 locking hyper bars and says that the racks are mostly what he sees in the caving community. He didn't even know what the petzl descender was. Is there a reason someone would use one over the other ?
Not quite full leathers - AV caving pants. Racks are probably still a bit more popular in the US, whereas bobbins are fairly universal elsewhere. This video talks about the various descenders for caving, the history, and the reasons for choosing one or another. ruclips.net/video/c14gUdwZJtw/видео.html
I'm very concerned about not being able to swap out bobbins. The device is rather expensive, and I have a box of killed bobbins over the years. If I multiply them out based on a full price STOP that box is worth a lot. I am sure the top bobbin will last much longer being in all stainless -- when the wear mode is on top of it as it should be. I think people with poor form, who control speed with the handle and wear the steel pin will wear it at a similar rate and then have a "slow" just as quickly. Never a huge fan of going away from modularity...
I share those concerns but will reserve judgment. I think the lifespan will probably be a function of the thickness of the steel in the upper bobbin. If it lasts for 5 years of heavy use then I'll be happy. If it's 1 year then not. I'm sure riding the brake will continue to be a thing.
Hmm the problem i have with this new stop is that "breake handle"....it is gona be even easier to use it as speed regulator insted of actual breake handle....which complicates things for beginers, and intention of making it as emergency brake handle is when you let go of the desender its gona lock up(or atleast somewhat), but with this one its just gona be easier to mess things up.....and and it looks like it dosent have that over travel lockout like on rig and id
Correct... there is no lock-out position. You are also right that the handle and progressive feel of its release will tempt many to use it for friction control. Perhaps this is okay with the stainless bobbins - not sure - but doing this may concentrate more heat and wear at the point where the camming occurs.
Changing can be difficult. While I have no additional experience with the new Stop, virtually everyone I've met who has switched thinks the new design is a big improvement.
What about assembling rope bridge or tyrolane with new petzl stop? It seems impossible to use new device for this types of activities. Handbrake works different and now u can't block it with the rope :/
Derek I have difficulty making decisions. It’s hard for me to shop. I somehow I’ve lost my rack I need a new descending device. Do you recommend this over a rack? I trust your advice completely
Shame they changed the handle - you could do a quick and solid lock with rope under handle in the old version. Also I'm bit worried about people using it as a friction control device which could lead to accelerated wear. The story of Croll shows that new isn't better in Petzl devices.
I always used the Stop with a braking biner, which prevents locking-off using the handle (as is shown in Petzl's manual), but I can see where this is a sacrifice for some users. The mis-use of the handle as a variable friction brake was always a problem and will likely continue to be a problem.
Is this also supposed to be used as a primary ascending device similarly to a a RIG, an I'D or a Sirius? And if not, why would I not use one of those instead of the Stop? Nb. I don't do caving, i'm just fascinated by these devices, i want to understand their uses and differences
This is probably a dumb question, but this device is specifically designed for descending, right? In that case, why not use a Grigri, which can also be used for belaying and rope ascention backup?
Babooshka00 Bobbin descenders such as the Stop are designed as caving descenders and have a few important advantages over a GriGri. They have better friction/speed control, they are more adaptable to a variety of rope diameters and rope conditions (wet/muddy), they have better heat dissipation for longer drops, and they can be attached/detached from the rope without removing them from the connecting carabiner which is important when crossing rebelays, knots and during changeovers. The Stop can also be used as an emergency ascender.
Great video Derek, all things considered, would you select the new Petzl Stop over Petzl Rig for caving? In my country we can only get the old Rig, not the updated version.
I've never used the Rig, and don't know anyone who uses it for caving. The Stop was originally designed for caving, whereas I think the Rig was built for industrial rope access. Perhaps the only practical concern with using the Rig for caving would be how it handles being wet and muddy.
Can you use a petzl zigzag or is it better to have a ascender and descender separately for the job? Daft question from someone looking at getting into caving.
I'm not familiar enough with the Zigzag to form an opinion, but I've never seen one used for caving. Caving is often muddy, wet and gritty. Any device that doesn't perform as expected when subjected to such conditions is probably not well suited for caving.
@@DerekBristol thank you for the quick reply. I shall stick with the tried and tested devices and maybe one day see if the zigzag is capable of doing well under those conditions.
I know many US cavers use PMI Pit Rope, but some say the stiffness and 11mm size, especially when dirty, doesn't work well with bobbins. I'm going to buy the Stop and I'm considering getting PMI 10mm EZ bend or maybe 11mm EZ bend to use with it. The drawback is less durability for caving purposes. What do you think?
I agree that the combination of dirty 11 mm Pit Rope with bobbins can be a challenge due to excessive friction. I use 10 mm in most of my rigging and think it’s a better balance of strength weight and durability than 11. EZ Bend is a great caving rope.
I'm a biker also. Suzuki DR-650; using Dunlop 606 or Shinko 700 depending on cave access need. With +36K odometer miles today. Starting, 1987, Yamaha TW200 putting 25K odometer miles on it before I needed a larger ride.
Hello, would the petzl stop be suitable for working as a rope access technician? Have someone tried it for long enought to compare it's durability to the petzl rig? Thanks
not rated in the us for that application. if you’re looking for a replacement to the id or rig i’d highest the camp giant as i’ve ridden both equally and gone through two ids and still rocking with the same camp giant
There are double-action bobbins that brake when you either release the handle or squeeze too hard. These are more complex but solve the panic response problem. It’s easy to say “just don’t do that” when mistakes are made, but there have been several accounts of beginners over gripping the Stop causing them to descend out of control. Training and experience does eventually mitigate the problem.
You need to buy a brand new one if the bobbins wear out?? This is why I don't like new Petzl things. Also, and I've been caving for only a few years so I don't know how it used to be before, but now there are much better and way cheaper alternatives than Petzl in my opinion. I'm doing fine with my mostly CT and Singing Rock gear. But I heard Petzl was 'The Brand' in the 90's, the big thing.
The Freino carabiner is great... but I always curse when a spur in my direction. She clings to everything and everything nearby is constantly snapping into her. Therefore, this carabiner is always attached with spur in "wrong" direction :)
I swear by the Raumer Handy steel breaking crab. I’m not a fan of the Freino, as it guides the rope out of the Stop in a less than ideal angle. raumerclimbing.com/eng/prodotti_dettaglio.asp?prod=-handy--stainless_steel_braking_carabiner&qi=0-8-142&qinav=0-8-c
Jeff Wurst Yes. C-rigging works just like with the old version, i.e. the brake is disabled and friction feels about the same. I frequently use bobbins that way, but Petzl has never approved it, so at your own risk.
@@DerekBristol I'm on C-rig probably 80% of the time, mostly because most of my caving is on fixed fat ropes in an exploration/survey project. I probably should get myself a Simple so I don't keep needlessly putting wear on my Stop.
Jeff Wurst Agreed. I use a Simple in Lech where 80% is fat ropes that I C-rig. I use the Stop in Mexico/Europe where it’s 9-10mm rope with lots of rebelays and it’s 90% S-rig.
Not used the new version yet. I won't be sad about the lack of ability to change the bobbins. I used stops for roped access in the mid '90s when access was essentially alpine SRT with a shunt rope added and stop was only thing used for abseil/rappel. On my first job on my first drop!!! as I was getting on the rope the stop they gave me was ancient and both bobbins the nuts fell off and it dismantled, it had looked good/normal but obviously wasn't right. I inspected everything every drop after that for the rest of my career. This new design makes it impossible to self dismantle.
No way I'm using one of these. I'm sure they're awesome but I'm not going to use something that is designed against my natural survival instinct of grabbing the handle. I get it, though. Racks suck on long drops, due to the weight of the rope acting as a brake. The counter to this way of thinking is if the person loses consciousness, their descent will stop automatically.
We always called it the Petzl Ooze, I'll wait til I find out IF it actually stops without having to lock off. Thanks for the update.
What oozes is your hard earned dinero!!!
Got one of these a year ago & still love it!
Came for the caving, staying for the Ducati 😎 You make great videos!
Nice video,
One of the problems encountered with the old stop was due to stainless being a poor thermal conductor - compared to aluminium. The 'nub' inserted into the lower bobbin gets quite hot when 'nubies' (Generally, but not exclusively blokes under 25), abseil too fast on dry rope, this glazes a stripe down one side of the rope. I remember back in the day, someone installing a small thermocouple into a hole drilled not quite all the way through the stainless nub, this recorded temperatures capable of melting the nylon rope.
I wonder if the new stainless bobbins will exhibit similar problems in the really dry caves you occasionally visit...
I cannot believe that Petzl wont have looked into this, the stainless could more exotic or the heat may be generated over a larger area than on the old stop, but worth looking out for.
Just use a SIMPLE red bobbin! Don,t forget the control binder!
Thank you for your analysis.
Thank you for the useful video!
Any news on the wear of the SS bobbins?
I still use simple, but i think that stop could effectively be safer in many situations.
Thanks. Great first look
I think that Petzl will call out this stop. We broke one on the practice, and also heard couple of them broken in Croatia. Use old stop if possible...
Let's stick to the bike!!😋😋😋 On the other hand , very nice presentation!! Keep up the good job!!!!
syggrafeas Thanks!
Another great video Derek!
Another outstanding video. TY
We call it the Petzl Slip.
Unfortunately I have to refer to the manual because the device in this video is used in a wrong and possibly dangerous way. 1:51
I'm pretty sure they will not allow to use the additional braking carabiner in the demi-rond with the new product. The possibility to block the descender upside down in the carabiner must be checked. But you learned fast: 3:15
Adler K You are correct that Petzl discourages using a braking carabiner directly on the demi-rond. Many cavers still do this anyway and use extra caution when unweighting the descender to ensure it doesn’t get hooked under the braking biner. I demonstrate this in my bobbin tutorial.
ruclips.net/video/h_sfCG8aasI/видео.html
Great job Sir👍👏👏
Full leathers and caving helmet, LOL ! Nice review.
My brother in-law uses short micro rack with 2 locking hyper bars and says that the racks are mostly what he sees in the caving community. He didn't even know what the petzl descender was. Is there a reason someone would use one over the other ?
Not quite full leathers - AV caving pants. Racks are probably still a bit more popular in the US, whereas bobbins are fairly universal elsewhere. This video talks about the various descenders for caving, the history, and the reasons for choosing one or another. ruclips.net/video/c14gUdwZJtw/видео.html
So effing sick on the Ducati with the climbing helmet!🤘🏼🤘🏼
I'm very concerned about not being able to swap out bobbins. The device is rather expensive, and I have a box of killed bobbins over the years. If I multiply them out based on a full price STOP that box is worth a lot. I am sure the top bobbin will last much longer being in all stainless -- when the wear mode is on top of it as it should be. I think people with poor form, who control speed with the handle and wear the steel pin will wear it at a similar rate and then have a "slow" just as quickly. Never a huge fan of going away from modularity...
I share those concerns but will reserve judgment. I think the lifespan will probably be a function of the thickness of the steel in the upper bobbin. If it lasts for 5 years of heavy use then I'll be happy. If it's 1 year then not. I'm sure riding the brake will continue to be a thing.
Hmm the problem i have with this new stop is that "breake handle"....it is gona be even easier to use it as speed regulator insted of actual breake handle....which complicates things for beginers, and intention of making it as emergency brake handle is when you let go of the desender its gona lock up(or atleast somewhat), but with this one its just gona be easier to mess things up.....and and it looks like it dosent have that over travel lockout like on rig and id
Amazing intro and outro btw
Correct... there is no lock-out position. You are also right that the handle and progressive feel of its release will tempt many to use it for friction control. Perhaps this is okay with the stainless bobbins - not sure - but doing this may concentrate more heat and wear at the point where the camming occurs.
Good looking device
Great review! I hope to see a more in-depth (pun intended) review after use in caving conditions.
Why? I like my previous manufactured Petzl Stop.
For all my outside climbing and cave exploration.
Maybe my problem is that I'm too well adjusted ?
Changing can be difficult. While I have no additional experience with the new Stop, virtually everyone I've met who has switched thinks the new design is a big improvement.
What about assembling rope bridge or tyrolane with new petzl stop? It seems impossible to use new device for this types of activities. Handbrake works different and now u can't block it with the rope :/
Derek I have difficulty making decisions. It’s hard for me to shop. I somehow I’ve lost my rack I need a new descending device. Do you recommend this over a rack? I trust your advice completely
para que vean que los viejitos todavia podemos hacer espeleo
Shame they changed the handle - you could do a quick and solid lock with rope under handle in the old version. Also I'm bit worried about people using it as a friction control device which could lead to accelerated wear. The story of Croll shows that new isn't better in Petzl devices.
I always used the Stop with a braking biner, which prevents locking-off using the handle (as is shown in Petzl's manual), but I can see where this is a sacrifice for some users. The mis-use of the handle as a variable friction brake was always a problem and will likely continue to be a problem.
Is this also supposed to be used as a primary ascending device similarly to a a RIG, an I'D or a Sirius? And if not, why would I not use one of those instead of the Stop? Nb. I don't do caving, i'm just fascinated by these devices, i want to understand their uses and differences
I hope one day someone will produce descender with no rope slippage.
This is probably a dumb question, but this device is specifically designed for descending, right? In that case, why not use a Grigri, which can also be used for belaying and rope ascention backup?
Babooshka00 Bobbin descenders such as the Stop are designed as caving descenders and have a few important advantages over a GriGri. They have better friction/speed control, they are more adaptable to a variety of rope diameters and rope conditions (wet/muddy), they have better heat dissipation for longer drops, and they can be attached/detached from the rope without removing them from the connecting carabiner which is important when crossing rebelays, knots and during changeovers. The Stop can also be used as an emergency ascender.
WAYYYYYEEEEYYYY OVVVERRRRPRICCCEDD!!!!;;;;
What is the model #... Are they available now?
Great video Derek, all things considered, would you select the new Petzl Stop over Petzl Rig for caving? In my country we can only get the old Rig, not the updated version.
I've never used the Rig, and don't know anyone who uses it for caving. The Stop was originally designed for caving, whereas I think the Rig was built for industrial rope access. Perhaps the only practical concern with using the Rig for caving would be how it handles being wet and muddy.
I would not suggest the new rig for caving as it will not last very long.
Can you use a petzl zigzag or is it better to have a ascender and descender separately for the job? Daft question from someone looking at getting into caving.
I'm not familiar enough with the Zigzag to form an opinion, but I've never seen one used for caving. Caving is often muddy, wet and gritty. Any device that doesn't perform as expected when subjected to such conditions is probably not well suited for caving.
@@DerekBristol thank you for the quick reply. I shall stick with the tried and tested devices and maybe one day see if the zigzag is capable of doing well under those conditions.
I know many US cavers use PMI Pit Rope, but some say the stiffness and 11mm size, especially when dirty, doesn't work well with bobbins. I'm going to buy the Stop and I'm considering getting PMI 10mm EZ bend or maybe 11mm EZ bend to use with it. The drawback is less durability for caving purposes. What do you think?
I agree that the combination of dirty 11 mm Pit Rope with bobbins can be a challenge due to excessive friction. I use 10 mm in most of my rigging and think it’s a better balance of strength weight and durability than 11. EZ Bend is a great caving rope.
Use a rack! Aah, rebelays! BUNK! skip them. Free hang the ropes. Use rope pads!
Too many young cavers are Euro patsy's!
I didn't know you where a biker? Nice review I agree with most of what you said. Nice job dude 🤙
Since I was 19... so maybe 15-20 years now?
@@DerekBristol wow long time, I will just just come for the caving next time. Bikes just don't cut it for me 😎
I'm a biker also. Suzuki DR-650;
using Dunlop 606 or Shinko 700
depending on cave access need.
With +36K odometer miles today.
Starting, 1987, Yamaha TW200
putting 25K odometer miles on it
before I needed a larger ride.
Did you notice a reduction in friction with the SS vs aluminum?
Not really. Hard to tell much of a difference in friction/speed.
Thanks for the video. How did you get this device?
Friend of a friend, who's a Petzl rep. Not authorized by Petzl and they don't know I borrowed it.
Hello, would the petzl stop be suitable for working as a rope access technician? Have someone tried it for long enought to compare it's durability to the petzl rig? Thanks
not rated in the us for that application. if you’re looking for a replacement to the id or rig i’d highest the camp giant as i’ve ridden both equally and gone through two ids and still rocking with the same camp giant
the petzl rig is also on a wicked sale with big $$ off on amazon right now
They should make every part solid aluminum--no hollows and no plastics.
1:49 - wtf is that supposed to mean? u need to train yourself More to release the handle more quickly in a panic shituation ???
There are double-action bobbins that brake when you either release the handle or squeeze too hard. These are more complex but solve the panic response problem. It’s easy to say “just don’t do that” when mistakes are made, but there have been several accounts of beginners over gripping the Stop causing them to descend out of control. Training and experience does eventually mitigate the problem.
A waste of time in the 45 seconds.
Great videos, the color coordination is too much though haha
You need to buy a brand new one if the bobbins wear out?? This is why I don't like new Petzl things. Also, and I've been caving for only a few years so I don't know how it used to be before, but now there are much better and way cheaper alternatives than Petzl in my opinion. I'm doing fine with my mostly CT and Singing Rock gear. But I heard Petzl was 'The Brand' in the 90's, the big thing.
good moto choice
The Freino carabiner is great... but I always curse when a spur in my direction. She clings to everything and everything nearby is constantly snapping into her. Therefore, this carabiner is always attached with spur in "wrong" direction :)
I swear by the Raumer Handy steel breaking crab. I’m not a fan of the Freino, as it guides the rope out of the Stop in a less than ideal angle. raumerclimbing.com/eng/prodotti_dettaglio.asp?prod=-handy--stainless_steel_braking_carabiner&qi=0-8-142&qinav=0-8-c
Does the C rig still work on the new version?
Jeff Wurst Yes. C-rigging works just like with the old version, i.e. the brake is disabled and friction feels about the same. I frequently use bobbins that way, but Petzl has never approved it, so at your own risk.
@@DerekBristol I'm on C-rig probably 80% of the time, mostly because most of my caving is on fixed fat ropes in an exploration/survey project. I probably should get myself a Simple so I don't keep needlessly putting wear on my Stop.
Jeff Wurst Agreed. I use a Simple in Lech where 80% is fat ropes that I C-rig. I use the Stop in Mexico/Europe where it’s 9-10mm rope with lots of rebelays and it’s 90% S-rig.
Not used the new version yet. I won't be sad about the lack of ability to change the bobbins. I used stops for roped access in the mid '90s when access was essentially alpine SRT with a shunt rope added and stop was only thing used for abseil/rappel. On my first job on my first drop!!! as I was getting on the rope the stop they gave me was ancient and both bobbins the nuts fell off and it dismantled, it had looked good/normal but obviously wasn't right. I inspected everything every drop after that for the rest of my career. This new design makes it impossible to self dismantle.
just use a Simple
Personally I liked the slugbug better...
so basically petzl have transform the stop in a kong pirata copy...
Basically, yes. It seems like Kong copied Petzl's bobbin and auto-stop design, and now Petzl is returning the favor by copying Kong's release lever.
@@DerekBristol actually petzl copied dresder for the bobbin and auto stop
No way I'm using one of these. I'm sure they're awesome but I'm not going to use something that is designed against my natural survival instinct of grabbing the handle. I get it, though. Racks suck on long drops, due to the weight of the rope acting as a brake. The counter to this way of thinking is if the person loses consciousness, their descent will stop automatically.
A waste of time in the 45 seconds.
All I see is a mid life crisis