Another benefit of the extension is the option to very easily switch to 'ascend mode' by connecting the extra eye of the rappel device to the belay loop with a karabiner.
Excellent clear presentation. I usually clarify that the position an unconscious person hangs puts the prusik into contact with the device as you demonstrated with the roll.Many novices are unaware where the pivot point is or that a body suspended from a harness doesn't stay upright. I have seen a legloop with prusik attached come unbuckled while they were cleaning a new route. There was no BFK in use. Scary. The Fench Prusik jammed itself into the ATC !!!
I've fully transitioned to extensions 90% of the time now. The length is also really handy for flipping an ATC into and out of guide mode as well. Thanks as always for adding to the communities collective knowledge
Fantastic, thorough video. Would love to see that complete video on the dual connect! Also, would really enjoy watching the full process of changing from one rappel station to another on the adjust if that’s something your setup allows for. Thanks for this video!
Fantastic video on rappel extension!! I often teach climbing skills in a volunteer role, and I’ll be sending this to my students in the future. Thank you for making this!
Toward the end of the video, you mentioned that the prussik on top can be loaded to make for a more difficult, less smooth descent. One alternative is the VT prussik (invented by Rich Carlson, sold by Bluewater). Worth checking out! Breaks easily and the technora sheath makes it extremely heat / abrasion resistant. I commend you for a very thorough video - I appreciate your approach : )
Very complete video. Thank you. FWIW. A slight difference, we use a 120cm sling threaded 1/2 through the harness hard points and tie the 2 ends with a figure 8. This forms 2 loops. We liked this length and the redundancy (especially with a tied, rather than sewn, sling.) We tend to use the Sterling HollowBlock, but the 6mm cord is fine. Another ancillary advantage of the autoblock is the ability, during rappel setup, to hold the weight of a hanging (think double) rope while threading the device. In addition to making it easier to thread, this slack allows the device to be easily placed closer to the anchor, so one isn't faced with wrestling a weighted device closer to obtain a more comfortable start. The rappel extension also places more of the climbers weight below the device, offering a little better stability.
great video! i like that detailed explaination, i like extended rappel setups very much, I mostly used it as better handled way down or for people with less wait on a old rope. But after your video definitly will use it more often, but i will keep attention of the catching hair part.
Been using a dedicated locking draw (dual locking biners on a dogbone) for this exact reason. Stays connected to my Reverso and I can just move the whole rig to a gear loop when not needed. I originally did this for additional braking control but didn’t even think about the rotational release issue. Thank you for that!
Can't wait for the video on the dual adjust connect. Been playing around with mine but don't feel that I have it dialed in yet. Thank you big time for the videos
Cool video, thank you,I bought the petzl connect adjust with two strands for exactly this as a rappel extension, but after using it for a few years, this year I cut the shorter one off, I realized it wasnt worth it to have it just for rappeling and not use it for anything else, so for weight saving and space saving I use a sling as a rappel extension, cool you pointed out the dissadvantages of using a leg loop, will tell my friends some use the leg loop
Nice video - lots of good information. I love my Petzl Connect Adjust for all the reason you give. One suggstion: when explaining the advantages of the prusik below the rappel device I'd suggest saying that the prusik below is replacing your hand so low weight/loading. With the prusik above it's replacing your rappel device and taking full bodyweight. Keep up the videos!
Great teaching style! Note that Accidents in North American Climbing had highlighted that the third hand will NOT arrest a fall when a the ATC is loaded incorrectly capturing only one strand in a double strand rappel. But it can just be a caveat in your next video 😊. This video is otherwise so helpful-Keep up the good work!
I have learned to belay the second with a munter. It takes more effort and attention, but it's super fast and doesn't require changing the setup when switching to lead belaying (assuming alternating leads). There's also a way to make an autoblocking munter by using an additional carabiner. It has more friction than an guide mode device, but you can switch to lead by simply removing the carabiner.
my favorite for all round instructing and teaching is the petzl connect vario. allows for threading through the tie in points, keeping the belay loop free and easier to use, and securing with an overhand while also being able to choose the length of both arms, I keep my abseil strand quite a bit shorter than on the normal dual adjust which I find a bit nicer in use, this also makes the connecting strand longer which is ideal when teaching allowing me to get out of the way from those i teach to let them do their thing. When out on my own I keep going back to just a basket hitched 60cm since i have a bunch of those on my draws anyways. and i find that ill use the rope on the belays anyways so the adjust is just extra weight and bulk on the approach.
Would love to see the discussion on options for repel extensions. I've been using a doubled up 120cm sling but I'm short and I often feel like I can't reach up high enough to properly test the setup before disconnecting my PAS.
This is great it’s nice to see how this system has developed over the years! If I could make a request I would love to see alpine specific repellent systems for efficient transition’s. Also yes please my parter is siting next to me and she would love to learn how to get her hair out of the belay device.
This is the first video of yours that I saw and I mist say I enjoyed it. Thank you some interesting knowledge. Look forward to watching more of your stuff
Thank you for such a complete insight into the reasons why we generally use rappel extensions. I have found myself quite a few times in situations while rappeling, where I had to go back up a little (like a stuck rope, a missed piton needed for clipping the rope, having gone done the wrong side of a ledge, having rappelled passed a very well hidden rappel station, etc.). Using the old-timer method, it was mostly (as long as it is not completely vertical or overhanging) easy to "go back up" (put feet on the wall, pull yourself onto your feet while grabbing the rope with the left hand, right hand pulls the slack through the belay device, sit back into the rope, move prusik up, rinse-repeat) - how would you resolve this easily with rappel extensions?
Great video! I've found that when having a rappel extension it's more difficult to climb up again and take slack back at the same time. Maybe you could explain that in another video, because more than once i had to climb up and kind of bite the sling thats holding my atc so i can have the tension to recover the slack of the rope 😅
I would add that climbers using an extension need to get it well dialed. I have seen a party of four spend almost a half hour per rappel to get it done. And in many retreat circumstances thirty minutes to rappel a pitch puts people in more danger than using the old traditional clip to your harness method. The first climber can use an extension and then the following rapellers get a fireman belay to back them up; and with a fireman backup a semi conscious or even unconscious person can be lowered. Whereas the extension requires significant rescue skills and equipment. And I would also like to know how many climbers have died because they didn't have an extension set up? I would add that an extension is often much better if you are wearing a puffy jacket and in my experience ( climbing since 1966) the prussik above is often better if you are rappeling with a heavy pack.
New subscriber and what a great first video! Very clear explanations and easy to follow progression. If you have made it already I apologize but would love to see your opinions on the various ways to use a standard sling to extend rappel and act as a leash/tether combo.
i’m laughing 😂you said 20 years, i didn’t realize i was mortal yet 😂 when i started climbing the blake’s hitch wasn’t even invented yet and i climbed with cowboy ropes professionally 44 years ago, a lot has changed, im 60 and still climbing, i finally treated myself to a nice arborist saddle and it’s like heaven
For the third hand, I like to girth hitch my prussik sling to my belay loop, then twist it around the rope for the autoblock and clip only one end of it back to the belay loop with a biner. This has the advantages of the autoblock sitting even lower, but most importantly, of not being able to ever lose the sling, as it is fixed to the belay loop. This setup makes it really easy to remove the autoblock too: just unclip from the carabiner (no need to be careful to only unclip one of the sling's ends, as you would need to be with a setup like yours) and pull on it. Done. This probably doesn't make that much of a difference in everyday situations, but what if one day in a storm, with cold hands and all, you inadvertently drop the prussik sling? I like having a setup that protects me from that kind of eventualities :)
I've experienced slipping while going over a lip to a free hang rappel. I whacked the belay device (and my hand) against the rock a couple of times (somewhat unnecessarily). The next problem was that two 60m ropes hanging through ~120' of free space was enough to lock the belay device. The immediate solution was to unload a few inches at a time with my brake hand on the klemheist which led to very jerky movement. That loading resolved once I was 70 feet or so down rope. Any clever solutions to that "weight of hanging dead rope" problem? for myself, if the entry was sufficiently demanding as in squirming over a thin overhanging lip, I would choose to use a direct rappel and an abundance of caution managing the third hand. Great video!
Fantastic walk-through Dave, Thank you! I was wondering why you wouldn't thread the 60cm sling or the dual-connect through your rope loops instead of the belay loop? (I'm new to the field)
Yes looks like an interesting device, not used it but I've seen plenty of reviews on it. I would say it does seem very bulky, complicated and heavy though. I think that's the reason why guides and pro climbers are still so attached to the Reverso style tube devices and why it's probably going to take more to convince that group of users who often drive trends in climbing.
@@DaveSearle When I bought it, I thought I would only use it occasionally. It has now become my go-to for pretty much all of my climbing. The auto locking feature provides a bit of extra safety for the leader when I am belaying (got knocked unconscious once by falling ice,) and it performs really well in "guide mode," so much so that I no longer carry a plaquette. Not that complicated after you have used it a couple of times. My regular partners have all converted and we all use them now. I have tried some of the other auto locking devices on the market, but nothing else I have used performs nearly as well. It is interesting watching trends in what guides use. I remember (many years ago,) my first trip to Chamonix, I was climbing in softshell pants. All the guides were in goretex. When I returned a few years later, pretty much every guide I saw was wearing softshells (and Super Mountain 9's.)
Very nice. I never thought about the trick at 6:45 where you simply put a clove hitch on your Petzl Connect. Is that a common practice now? I do prefer the single strand Connect for its compactness and simplicity.
I've experienced that the prusik came up because it was attached to my leg loop. However, it didn't unload the system, but worse it jammed into the belay device. I was hanging freely and could barely self-rescue myself. Very dangerous
As a question from someone who is an arborist, caver, climber (trad/alpine) and cave rescue member how often do you practise mid rope rescue? In our experience a bottom belay offers significantly more safety than an autoblock. Use extensions and autoblocks with awareness that they significantly heighten the risk of having to perform a mid rope rescue either from above or below.
If you are descending using an autoblock as shown in the video, and get knocked unconscious by a rock fall, you are then stuck in that posistion on rope. Your climbing partner must be either able to perform a mid-rope rescue from above or below, depending on where they are in relation to the victim. A bottom belay is someone who stands at the base of the abseil holding the ropes. In the event of loss of control they simply apply their body weight to the rope to stop the uncontrolled descent. They can control the lowering speed by the amount of tension they apply to the rope. In a multi pitch descent we send the first person down on a single leg of rope with them using an autoblock but on a system we can lower if the next belay is on a suitable ledge. This person bottom belays the remaining party members down on a normal double rope abseil with no autoblock. I hope this answers your question. Thanks for asking. I'm afraid not enough viewers understand the risks of autoblocks
클라이밍에 입문한 지 1년 정도된 저에게 너무나 도움되는 설명이었습니다! 장비들을 착용하거나 시스템을 구축하는 방법들을 배우기는 했지만 왜 그것이 필요하고 왜 그렇게 하게 되었는지를 이해할 수 없었는데 너무나 많은 팁들과 원리들을 배울 수 있어서 영상 설명 너무나 좋았습니다 감사합니다!
The hair beta for long hair and climbing is to do a french brade and where a upf 50 sun hoodie to protect your hair from the many hair hazerds of climbing including sun damage to hair, tangles and getting cought on stuff like carabineers scrub oak bushes ropes slings excetra
I use an extension 99% of the time (maybe not on a single pitch). The only issue I ever had in years of climbing was going over a major sharp ledge and getting it stuck above me. PITA (and a bit scary). But now I know how to avoid that so...
I personally only used the version with the 120 cm sling. When i learned this stuff in the Swiss Military ~10 years ago, that was the way they thought it. But have been wondering if there are significant benefits to using something like those "connect adjust" systems. As far as I know, they have some dynamic portion build in, but not sure how much that is gonna add when it comes to a worst case 2.4 m fall (fall factor 2, which i think shouldn't be a position one should be in from the get-go). For me, the amount of days i actually use those things currently can be counted on one hand per year...
@@DaveSearle Generally prefer over a cordalette. Easier to wrap back up. I got the 180cm pur'anneau and it's great, but isn't always quite long enough for some widely spaced anchors.
When rappelling with a munter, I have serious doubts about whether to extend the prusik knot or the munter, since the direction of holding the rappel rope is upwards. I know I shouldn't rappel with a Munter hitch, but if my ATC falls, I want to rappel safely using a third hand with my Munter hitch.
Are people replacing the autoblock with a VT? It just seems like such a superior hitch in so many ways. I use a VT above or below the device, depending on the rappel. I encounter a lot of climbers using climbing-style rope handling and rappel rigging when I'm out canyoneering. I often wonder if some of the skills learned for canyons could transfer over to alpine rappels.
Another downside of a rappel extension is when a rappel station is low on the rock compared with where you can easily stand, since it makes it really awkward to weight your rappel setup. Cat In The Hat at Red Rocks outside Las Vegas has a rappel station like that. What about forgoing the auto block by using an auto locking rappel device such as a mega jul in high friction orientation? Honestly, that's my favorite setup since it is so easy to setup and remove, which can help you move quicker... and sometimes you are rappelling quickly to mitigate a dangerous situation, so anything that speeds up the rappels can be very important in my opinion.
I’ve never had a worse time on a rappel than when I used a megajul in auto locking mode. So difficult to manage and bouncy. The alpine up seems like it works better but it also seems to bulky, heavy and complex to teach to a client.
Your example with Cat in the Hat is a good one. It's one of these kind of situations a climber eventually encounters in the wild and goes "wait, this isn't convenient or what I'm used" and can cause some panic or lead to a mistake. @DaveSearle if you have follow-up videos on rappel extension that talking about rigging on lower set anchors would be a nice demonstration.
What's your opinion on rappelling on an auto-tuber like the Edelrid Giga Jul? As you wont slide down the rope even hands free, can it therefore replace the auto-block? Keen to hear your opinion on that!
Most of those have a rappelling mode that requires an auto-block setup. For me the third hand is there for more than just holding you from sliding down the rope. It’s also for that backup when threading your device. I’ve yet to use a device like the gigajul (yes I have used the older version) that I got on with in autoblock mode for rappelling.
Also interested in downsides of using break assisted devices like the edelrid ones for rappelling. Been using my megajul for a couple of years and generally do not add a autobloc knot. It took a while to learn to rappel with it without looking like a bungee jumper, but after a while it goes smooth with most ropes. One thing I have learned from rather sketchy situations is to use a prussik backup on unknown skinny ropes. Standing on a ledge and load testing by leaning back and bouncing a bit does not guarantee that it will block once truly vertical!
I'd also like to see a video exploring this topic. I love using the megajul (more than the gigajul actually) for rappelling, and I often use it as a stand-alone device with no auto-block because I've yet to encounter a situation where it doesn't hold me hands-free, and as such it greatly reduces my transition time, especially on routes with multiple rappels. That said, I know I'm accepting a fair bit more risk by not using an auto-block. I've also used the alpine-up and I really enjoy that device for rappelling too, it's just not great in guide mode and it's quite bulky compared with the megajul.
A belay extension, third hand, and autoblock is pretty archaic in 2024 (yes, I did it for 15 years). A GigaJul, Megajul, Smart, or other devices are so much better and so much less faffing around (do multiple raps with a partner using the system shown in this video is painfully slow). I assume when Petzl finally makes a modern rap device, all guides are gonna start making videos how old fashion the system shown in this video is. Wait, should I use two, three, or four wraps on my backup?? Is my hollow block worn through yet? Anyone got a pair of scissors to cut my hair from my extended device?? Pretty wack with no benefits over a modern device. And, a third hand as a back up "to clipping only one rope through your rappel device" is really stretching to justify this out of date technique. I love your videos but Petzl is really lagging, Reversos were cool 15-20 yrs ago, not today, and shit they wear soooooo fast.
@@doughutchinson1736 I guess I'm going to have to reluctantly buy another one of those AB devices to try and see if I like a different one. I tried the mega jul and absolutely hated it. I also don't see how you can rappel smoothly and quickly with a mega jul without putting it backwards and having a backup which sort of defeats the point? Also in that mode its difficult to pull slack through when setting up and it's much harder to go into ascent mode if you need to half way down the rap. I feel I'm faster and smoother at rappelling with a reverso and have both hands on the dead rope. I also think that I can set up my device and the devices of my clients much faster especially with gloves on and it's cleaner and easier to check that it's been done correctly.
The other benefit of the rappel extension is more comfortable rappelling. Your hands can easily both reach the rope, versus being off down low and to the side.
Was just talking about this with a friend. I don't see a difference using a standard connect adjust versus another PAS system (beal jammy, slings, etc). Do you think the true value is in the dual variant? Is it for speed, ease of use, or something else? Its a big item to carry relative to alternatives.
Good video. I noticed that you clipped the third hand into your belay loop. This way the system is not redundant. I usually clip my third hand into both loops behind the belay loop I would also like to point out one disadvantage of the system. When an edge is passed and the anchor point is lower than the belay device it is tricky to pass the edge. Because of the device being closer to the edge than you. I hope nakes sense.
When you say not redundant what do you mean? Do you mean that you feel that you could break the belay loop on your harness some why somehow? Belay loops are typically made of two loops of webbing sewn in a continuous loop. There has been 1 reported failure of a belay loop in modern climbing history and that is widely regarded as being with a very worn out and old harness. Good point with the passing an edge but I would say it’s normally very manageable because it’s rare you don’t have good footing when passing over a lip. I’ve never found that to be a big problem.
@@DaveSearle I do understand the strength of the belay loop and I am also familiar with the statistics (which proves that there is a possibility of a fail) but this does not exclude the fact that a simple clip on the loops of the waist and leg harnesses makes the third hand a full back up. Same logic as the industrial harnesses: For instance Petzl. The main device (ID for example) is clipped onto the D ring. But the back up device (Asap for example) should not be clipped onto the D ring but onto an alternative point. It is just my opinion. I hope that makes sense. ✌️
@@naBkaK I think although it is important to look sideways at industrial rope access I don't think we should let that govern how we do things in recreational or professional climbing. The gear is very different and the systems also. Let loops on modern climbing harnesses are not designed to have autoblocks clipped to them.
The legloop method is still quite common in germany. I still see it all over the place, so I wouldn't talk about it as if it's in the past ;). Extended belays can have a bunch of issues as well. For example, if you have to pull yourself up or ascend from a bad position, it's nearly impossible, which can be a real safety issue in some situations. Prusik above is a bad idea imho. I want the belay device to carry the load. The belay device is much less likely to fail and if it fails, then the prusik underneath has a chance of holding you. If the prusik is above, the belay device does nothing, and if the prusik fails, it'll continue to do nothing (unless it's got assisted breaking which may or may not engage) (of course in hands of situations, which one shouldn't be in anyway, but stuff can happen, like getting knocked out)
Let's assume that you somehow flip it into ascend mode (assuming the belay device you're using even has one...) while the system is fully loaded. You're still not going to have much of a good time actually ascending without the ability to properly unload and pull slack through. Of course, you could try tying knots into the rope to step into, but on a dynamic rope, that's... eh... marginal. (With the belay device at hip / stomach level one can grab the rope above the device to unload it easily) I do encourage you to suspend yourself on an extended belay and try to ascend on it without extra gear or a wall (or just a terrible one). (Let's assume you somehow repelled the wrong direction, you were supposed to go left at that ledge but went right or something, and are lowering yourself into a waterfall and the rock is wet, up is your only good choice) P.s. I use the extended myself. Though I like to keep the extension very short. And I wouldn't banish it to the past. Just like the munter, it's good to be proficient in it. Gear can be dropped or broken, if a prusik and an hms is all you've got left, you can still repell safely with the gear loop method as long as you're aware of the problems.
@@voidedname I think assuming anyone would ever rappel without some way to climb back up then get lost and stuck in some sort of situation is fairly unrealistic at best. But there is a way to do it using the tail end of the rope as a make shift prussik and creating a footloop with that and clipping the loop of the ATC into the prussik loop hole. as for just pulling rope through an extended belay device with a friction hitch yes that pretty much impossible. In the situation you describe then it would be best to create a foot loop above everything and then flip the reverso in ascend mode. Rappeling with a device without that makes life harder for sure!
@DaveSearle you'd assume so, yes. But then again, most climbing fatalities are from rapelling off the end of the rope cause they didn't tie a knot into it even though it's near universally taught. Making assumptions kills. People get rescued of walls because they misjudged something all the time. Tying a foot loop on a dynamic rope on top of all the stretch and extra length needed to get a rope based friction hitch to bind safely on itself... never tried that myself, but I have my reservations in believing that you can successfully unload the belay device. It also assumes extra gear. How you propose to tie a footloop above the extended (or non extended) belay is a mystery to me. You're not going to use the rope under tension for it. Depending on the extension, you may not reach far above the belay device in the first place, rope stretch is still a thing (if using the end of the rope), so you won't gain much height out of it, especially with extension butting it right against the belay device (agter rope contraction due to unloading). Unless you're proposing extra gear to do this, at which point I can also just fairy dust an ascension device into the situation and just use that. I am talking about exceptional situations. You shouldn't be in them in the first place, but people get into them for numerous reasons and not always due to poor planning or fault of their own. If parts of the wall go, taking some of your gear with it, a particular zesty bird or surprise bee making you drop something, sudden rainshower forcing you to bail and leave a bunch of gear behind, etc etc. I see no reason why we should try to push this into the past. I also strongly encourage anyone who climbs multipitch to be very comfortable with the munter hitch for the same reason (both belay and double strand rapell). It's potentially life-saving if you run out of options and potentially fighting onsetting panic, which may not be the best time to try a technique for the first time or even reinventing it, cause it was never taught to you. (Most likely is lack of gear, ascension is an extreme example, you're much more likely to just run out of slings or carabiners)
Why don't u use a prussic above the rappel device? I was shown to use a prussic above a figure 8 rappel device (this is our back up descender) in a rope rescue course.
If you rappel on an autoblocking device like the giga jul or the gri gri do you still use a rappel extension / prussik? I have always used an autoblocking device when belaying others and when rapping and never really understood the point of the prussik in the first place.
With a gri gri no, with a gigajul I’m not sure how that one works exactly but if it’s anything like the mega jul then it sucks to rappel with in autoblock mode so then you have to put it backwards and use a rappel extension and prusik. In that mode it’s much harder to go back up the rope using the device so it’s not so easy to handle in general.
@@DaveSearle I rappel in the autoblock mode and I am not sure what the issue is. It does block, which is marginally more annoying than using a tube would be, but prussiks are the same way. I have noticed that on longer/faster rappels that the device can heat up, but it doesn't both me at all.
@DaveSearle, I used and abandoned the Megajul and Microjul for the reason you noted: Totally dysfunctional for rappeling. Since 2019 I've been using the Gigajul for double-rope rappels, with ropes MINIMUM 8.5 mm, with NO friction hitch of any kind -- based on the same reason I feel safe rappeling with a Grigri with no backup. The Gigajul works well: I often let go of both hands for rope management etc., and it always holds...except with the 8.5 mm Beal Opera, and there is less than 10 M of rope below me. (There is too little rope weight to engage the brake assist on the Gigajul, and I will descend very slowly if hands-free. Not an issue, with knots always in rope ends.) In Chamonix in 1983 I bought a Shunt. I loved that device as a rappel backup, and I always used it ABOVE my rappel device. (Sure, I had to bounce a bit after the Shunt was under load, to start rappeling again.) I started climbing in 1976. So far I have never used a rappel extension and doubt I ever will.
Hi Dave, thank you for great video! One issue I have been encountering with extension is that rappelling isn’t smooth, the angle of the ATC and the rope seems to brake extensively and I have to lift the dead rope up to release it, so it’s a pretty bumpy ride. Ever encountered that problem? I use normal ATC device and Radline. Thank you!
Great, only thing to take care is it puts your ATC close to your face and therefore for people with long hair adds a risk to be aware of. Possible to add a Prussic above as well. Cheers
i have an "issue" that the autoblock knot lots of time touches and pressures a tiny bit the strands which have the reverso/gg setup. What are your thoughts on that?
Just wanna throw that in, as I have been recently using and switching to a rappel extension with a prusik as backup. One problem I see is (with the situation in 9:45), that when the prusik and rappel tool is engaging, and you are loosening the self secure lanyard: If you made an error in connecting the rappel tool, you may not notice it, as both the engaging prusik (which may hold the weight right now) as well as the rappel tool are in the belay loop in the Harness... Does anyone have a good solution to this? (My solution was, to loosening the lanyard only, when the prusik is not engaged...)
So if a rappelling climber is becomes, for whatever reason, what keeps said climber upright? The rappel extension DOES NOT lower the center of gravity in relation to the climbers point of support, which IS lower than climbers center of gravity. How would the rappelling climbers "system", as demonstrated, perform when the climber is inverted?
That’s the big point of the rappel extension. Being inverted does not affect the ability of the autoblock to hold if the device is extended. There is nothing keeping the climber upright though and that’s a huge problem in a recuse scenario.
I have the single Connect Adjust. And I don't want the double version, honestly. I don't want another thing that's hanging around on my harness and has to be stowed somewhere, especially if it isn't needed 99% of the time and can easily be replaced by a sling once I do need it.
The downside of prusik baring load is that this is a piece that gets worn a lot from constant friction against the rope. People are lazy and don't change them frequently, so under the full body load it may just fail one day while autoblocking.
As someone with long hair I actually find that my hair is less likely to get caught with an extension. I believe this to be because the ends of my hair are further away from the device. Great video though
Hands free, no auto lock just wrap a leg. Rappel and belay devices gave become ridiculously complex. Simple is better. I used a simple two hole belay plate for 20 years, and a simpler one hole micro belay plate. If you use a prussack loop you apply it above the belay device. There you have full control over the prussack entirely independant of the belay device. You can belay, they add or remove the prissack at will. Or even prussack of fixed protection. And walk away. I had a situation where belaying a 78year old climber. I had to walk away to obtain additional rope to allow the lead to climb through a band of poor rock during an adventure climb. I used a system of prussacks to systematically add tape, and 6mm string to gain an additional 20m of “rope” and use an old school mountaineering under the crotch/over the shoulder belay. The prussacks attached to my pack filled with rocks as “fixed protection” it weighed more than I did so was adequate as a counterweight belay. The 78yr old British Mountaineer society member was very happy with my belay. But was pissed at her selection of route. Next it was my turn to lead. And I got the worst case of exposure on the outside of an arrette. But climbed through. So much fun to be had at Charleston, South Island, NZ.
The long hair thing is no joke. I've seen a couple of girls encounter that; device just winched her head right into it. (I didn't rap with anything except my hand on the rope for 20 years. No objection to the auto-block but this modern assumption that it's ABSOLUTELY CRITICAL is a bit much.)
What a fantastically clear demonstration of how an unextended rappel can fail. Great video!
Glad you liked it!
This is a great video! Would love it if you could do a full “start to finish” video on crevasse rescue using the RAD kit. Cheers!
Yeah, what he said.
what they said.
Hahah. Just need to find the time for this, and a filmer and a victim, and some good weather. Hence it’s taking a bit of time to get together!
Would love this
Another benefit of the extension is the option to very easily switch to 'ascend mode' by connecting the extra eye of the rappel device to the belay loop with a karabiner.
Yes! That’s something I wanted to cover in a later video!
Excellent clear presentation. I usually clarify that the position an unconscious person hangs puts the prusik into contact with the device as you demonstrated with the roll.Many novices are unaware where the pivot point is or that a body suspended from a harness doesn't stay upright. I have seen a legloop with prusik attached come unbuckled while they were cleaning a new route. There was no BFK in use. Scary. The Fench Prusik jammed itself into the ATC !!!
I've fully transitioned to extensions 90% of the time now. The length is also really handy for flipping an ATC into and out of guide mode as well. Thanks as always for adding to the communities collective knowledge
Thanks levi!
Fantastic, thorough video. Would love to see that complete video on the dual connect! Also, would really enjoy watching the full process of changing from one rappel station to another on the adjust if that’s something your setup allows for. Thanks for this video!
Fantastic video on rappel extension!! I often teach climbing skills in a volunteer role, and I’ll be sending this to my students in the future. Thank you for making this!
Great!
Toward the end of the video, you mentioned that the prussik on top can be loaded to make for a more difficult, less smooth descent. One alternative is the VT prussik (invented by Rich Carlson, sold by Bluewater). Worth checking out! Breaks easily and the technora sheath makes it extremely heat / abrasion resistant.
I commend you for a very thorough video - I appreciate your approach : )
Yeah I’ve never really got into Vt prusiks myself. I’m sure for that they would be ace and I have heard that before.
Very complete video. Thank you. FWIW. A slight difference, we use a 120cm sling threaded 1/2 through the harness hard points and tie the 2 ends with a figure 8. This forms 2 loops. We liked this length and the redundancy (especially with a tied, rather than sewn, sling.) We tend to use the Sterling HollowBlock, but the 6mm cord is fine. Another ancillary advantage of the autoblock is the ability, during rappel setup, to hold the weight of a hanging (think double) rope while threading the device. In addition to making it easier to thread, this slack allows the device to be easily placed closer to the anchor, so one isn't faced with wrestling a weighted device closer to obtain a more comfortable start. The rappel extension also places more of the climbers weight below the device, offering a little better stability.
great video! i like that detailed explaination, i like extended rappel setups very much, I mostly used it as better handled way down or for people with less wait on a old rope. But after your video definitly will use it more often, but i will keep attention of the catching hair part.
Been using a dedicated locking draw (dual locking biners on a dogbone) for this exact reason. Stays connected to my Reverso and I can just move the whole rig to a gear loop when not needed. I originally did this for additional braking control but didn’t even think about the rotational release issue. Thank you for that!
Yeah I use that sometimes also!
Can't wait for the video on the dual adjust connect. Been playing around with mine but don't feel that I have it dialed in yet. Thank you big time for the videos
On it!
Cool video, thank you,I bought the petzl connect adjust with two strands for exactly this as a rappel extension, but after using it for a few years, this year I cut the shorter one off, I realized it wasnt worth it to have it just for rappeling and not use it for anything else, so for weight saving and space saving I use a sling as a rappel extension, cool you pointed out the dissadvantages of using a leg loop, will tell my friends some use the leg loop
Great approach with historical progression, pros/cons with alternative options for each con and demonstrations for everything. Couldn't be better.
Nice video - lots of good information. I love my Petzl Connect Adjust for all the reason you give. One suggstion: when explaining the advantages of the prusik below the rappel device I'd suggest saying that the prusik below is replacing your hand so low weight/loading. With the prusik above it's replacing your rappel device and taking full bodyweight. Keep up the videos!
Great video. Would love to see another one on the other variations of rappel extensions. Thanks.
Wow, that’s a great video Dave, your filming lighting audio and everything is just top-notch. keep up the good work!
Been using the Dual Adjust for years, super neat. Nice video.
Great teaching style! Note that Accidents in North American Climbing had highlighted that the third hand will NOT arrest a fall when a the ATC is loaded incorrectly capturing only one strand in a double strand rappel. But it can just be a caveat in your next video 😊. This video is otherwise so helpful-Keep up the good work!
please do a video on all the other ways to extend a rappel and they're pros and cons. Im interested in using a locking alpine draw
Thanks Dave for the great content. Would love to see content on your thoughts/POV on belaying a second with a munter! keep up with the good work!
Yeah I’ll add that to my list of ideas!
I have learned to belay the second with a munter. It takes more effort and attention, but it's super fast and doesn't require changing the setup when switching to lead belaying (assuming alternating leads).
There's also a way to make an autoblocking munter by using an additional carabiner. It has more friction than an guide mode device, but you can switch to lead by simply removing the carabiner.
my favorite for all round instructing and teaching is the petzl connect vario. allows for threading through the tie in points, keeping the belay loop free and easier to use, and securing with an overhand while also being able to choose the length of both arms, I keep my abseil strand quite a bit shorter than on the normal dual adjust which I find a bit nicer in use, this also makes the connecting strand longer which is ideal when teaching allowing me to get out of the way from those i teach to let them do their thing. When out on my own I keep going back to just a basket hitched 60cm since i have a bunch of those on my draws anyways. and i find that ill use the rope on the belays anyways so the adjust is just extra weight and bulk on the approach.
Yeah I just profess I’ve not used the vario but maybe I should give it a go.
Would love to see the discussion on options for repel extensions. I've been using a doubled up 120cm sling but I'm short and I often feel like I can't reach up high enough to properly test the setup before disconnecting my PAS.
I like to shorten the double sling with an overhand, and to shorten it more you could add a figure eight or even a nine.
Thanks for these videos, some of the best on youtube for all this stuff. Have a few saved in a playlist for winter 2025
Great to hear!
Wonderful video and explanation, and I have seen lots of them through the last twenty years
Glad you enjoyed it!
Wow, master class in session - Thank you so much!
This is great it’s nice to see how this system has developed over the years! If I could make a request I would love to see alpine specific repellent systems for efficient transition’s. Also yes please my parter is siting next to me and she would love to learn how to get her hair out of the belay device.
Great video! thanks.
If im going to do multiples rappels, I use the petzl shunt to back up the rappel, I found it much safer than a prusik
Interesting, I’ve not really justified the weight of a shunt but I guess if that’s not a problem for you it is a good option!
Great video Dave, thanks for uploading. Great to see you thriving out in the Alps.🙂
Glad you enjoyed it
Awesome video, i thought i knew what i was doing but im still stuck with the 20 year old method!
It is perfectly fine for most rappels.
i’ve taken a 66cm loop and loop it 2-3 times to make a rappel extension and it works well i figured its 22kn and should work
This is the first video of yours that I saw and I mist say I enjoyed it. Thank you some interesting knowledge. Look forward to watching more of your stuff
Such a well done video and very informative.
Yes keen for a deeper dive into extensions and ways to rap with a pack or injured partner
Wow, this was fantastic and I learned a lot - thanks. Well done content and easy to follow. THANKS!!
Glad you enjoyed it!
Looking forward to the video on connect adjust 😊
It’s live!
really need that video about diferent ways of rappel extensions. thaks foy your video
Thank you for such a complete insight into the reasons why we generally use rappel extensions. I have found myself quite a few times in situations while rappeling, where I had to go back up a little (like a stuck rope, a missed piton needed for clipping the rope, having gone done the wrong side of a ledge, having rappelled passed a very well hidden rappel station, etc.). Using the old-timer method, it was mostly (as long as it is not completely vertical or overhanging) easy to "go back up" (put feet on the wall, pull yourself onto your feet while grabbing the rope with the left hand, right hand pulls the slack through the belay device, sit back into the rope, move prusik up, rinse-repeat) - how would you resolve this easily with rappel extensions?
Great question! Might cover this in a video!
Great video! I've found that when having a rappel extension it's more difficult to climb up again and take slack back at the same time. Maybe you could explain that in another video, because more than once i had to climb up and kind of bite the sling thats holding my atc so i can have the tension to recover the slack of the rope 😅
I would add that climbers using an extension need to get it well dialed.
I have seen a party of four spend almost a half hour per rappel to get it done.
And in many retreat circumstances thirty minutes to rappel a pitch puts people in more danger than using the old traditional clip to your harness method.
The first climber can use an extension and then the following rapellers get a fireman belay to back them up; and with a fireman backup a semi conscious or even unconscious person can be lowered.
Whereas the extension requires significant rescue skills and equipment.
And I would also like to know how many climbers have died because they didn't have an extension set up?
I would add that an extension is often much better if you are wearing a puffy jacket and in my experience ( climbing since 1966) the prussik above is often better if you are rappeling with a heavy pack.
Really clear and well made video! Perfect for such important content, thanks!!
Thanks!
New subscriber and what a great first video! Very clear explanations and easy to follow progression. If you have made it already I apologize but would love to see your opinions on the various ways to use a standard sling to extend rappel and act as a leash/tether combo.
I have use extensions for years, but always put the auto block prusik above the belay device as with your last example. I think it is much safer.
no an autoblock doesnt have enough friction for that
Awesome video. Love your content. When is episode 2 of your rad line master class coming out?
Not sure but I think I’m going to press pause on that until next winter and focus on some key skills that build on that. Like this.
i’m laughing 😂you said 20 years, i didn’t realize i was mortal yet 😂 when i started climbing the blake’s hitch wasn’t even invented yet and i climbed with cowboy ropes professionally 44 years ago, a lot has changed, im 60 and still climbing, i finally treated myself to a nice arborist saddle and it’s like heaven
For the third hand, I like to girth hitch my prussik sling to my belay loop, then twist it around the rope for the autoblock and clip only one end of it back to the belay loop with a biner. This has the advantages of the autoblock sitting even lower, but most importantly, of not being able to ever lose the sling, as it is fixed to the belay loop. This setup makes it really easy to remove the autoblock too: just unclip from the carabiner (no need to be careful to only unclip one of the sling's ends, as you would need to be with a setup like yours) and pull on it. Done.
This probably doesn't make that much of a difference in everyday situations, but what if one day in a storm, with cold hands and all, you inadvertently drop the prussik sling? I like having a setup that protects me from that kind of eventualities :)
Amazing video! Where can one get the map seen in the background? Keep up the good work!
I've experienced slipping while going over a lip to a free hang rappel. I whacked the belay device (and my hand) against the rock a couple of times (somewhat unnecessarily). The next problem was that two 60m ropes hanging through ~120' of free space was enough to lock the belay device. The immediate solution was to unload a few inches at a time with my brake hand on the klemheist which led to very jerky movement. That loading resolved once I was 70 feet or so down rope. Any clever solutions to that "weight of hanging dead rope" problem? for myself, if the entry was sufficiently demanding as in squirming over a thin overhanging lip, I would choose to use a direct rappel and an abundance of caution managing the third hand. Great video!
Fantastic walk-through Dave, Thank you! I was wondering why you wouldn't thread the 60cm sling or the dual-connect through your rope loops instead of the belay loop? (I'm new to the field)
You can do but you don’t need to.
I use an Alpine Up. Nice controlled rappels that automatically brake and stop you when you take your hands off.
Yes looks like an interesting device, not used it but I've seen plenty of reviews on it. I would say it does seem very bulky, complicated and heavy though. I think that's the reason why guides and pro climbers are still so attached to the Reverso style tube devices and why it's probably going to take more to convince that group of users who often drive trends in climbing.
@@DaveSearle When I bought it, I thought I would only use it occasionally. It has now become my go-to for pretty much all of my climbing. The auto locking feature provides a bit of extra safety for the leader when I am belaying (got knocked unconscious once by falling ice,) and it performs really well in "guide mode," so much so that I no longer carry a plaquette. Not that complicated after you have used it a couple of times. My regular partners have all converted and we all use them now. I have tried some of the other auto locking devices on the market, but nothing else I have used performs nearly as well.
It is interesting watching trends in what guides use. I remember (many years ago,) my first trip to Chamonix, I was climbing in softshell pants. All the guides were in goretex. When I returned a few years later, pretty much every guide I saw was wearing softshells (and Super Mountain 9's.)
Great video , well explained
Very nice. I never thought about the trick at 6:45 where you simply put a clove hitch on your Petzl Connect. Is that a common practice now? I do prefer the single strand Connect for its compactness and simplicity.
Thanks for the video mr Searle!
Your welcome!
I've experienced that the prusik came up because it was attached to my leg loop. However, it didn't unload the system, but worse it jammed into the belay device. I was hanging freely and could barely self-rescue myself. Very dangerous
Great training video 😁
As a question from someone who is an arborist, caver, climber (trad/alpine) and cave rescue member how often do you practise mid rope rescue?
In our experience a bottom belay offers significantly more safety than an autoblock.
Use extensions and autoblocks with awareness that they significantly heighten the risk of having to perform a mid rope rescue either from above or below.
@yetisteps8200 could you elaborate on this subject? It seems important but I don't think I fully understand what you wrote. Thanks in advance!
If you are descending using an autoblock as shown in the video, and get knocked unconscious by a rock fall, you are then stuck in that posistion on rope. Your climbing partner must be either able to perform a mid-rope rescue from above or below, depending on where they are in relation to the victim.
A bottom belay is someone who stands at the base of the abseil holding the ropes. In the event of loss of control they simply apply their body weight to the rope to stop the uncontrolled descent. They can control the lowering speed by the amount of tension they apply to the rope.
In a multi pitch descent we send the first person down on a single leg of rope with them using an autoblock but on a system we can lower if the next belay is on a suitable ledge. This person bottom belays the remaining party members down on a normal double rope abseil with no autoblock.
I hope this answers your question. Thanks for asking. I'm afraid not enough viewers understand the risks of autoblocks
@francotappa5882 see above
@@ConservatreeNZ thank you for answering! A bottom belay would be similar to a top rope? Would it need an aditional pulley?
Nicely done. Autoblock better than klemheist?
Generally yes for rappelling
@@DaveSearle Thanks, will adopt!
Great video
클라이밍에 입문한 지 1년 정도된 저에게 너무나 도움되는 설명이었습니다! 장비들을 착용하거나 시스템을 구축하는 방법들을 배우기는 했지만 왜 그것이 필요하고 왜 그렇게 하게 되었는지를 이해할 수 없었는데 너무나 많은 팁들과 원리들을 배울 수 있어서 영상 설명 너무나 좋았습니다 감사합니다!
The hair beta for long hair and climbing is to do a french brade and where a upf 50 sun hoodie to protect your hair from the many hair hazerds of climbing including sun damage to hair, tangles and getting cought on stuff like carabineers scrub oak bushes ropes slings excetra
Nice update! thanks your share
I use an extension 99% of the time (maybe not on a single pitch). The only issue I ever had in years of climbing was going over a major sharp ledge and getting it stuck above me. PITA (and a bit scary). But now I know how to avoid that so...
Great vid, love the content!
Glad you enjoy it!
Thank you so much for sharing
I personally only used the version with the 120 cm sling. When i learned this stuff in the Swiss Military ~10 years ago, that was the way they thought it.
But have been wondering if there are significant benefits to using something like those "connect adjust" systems. As far as I know, they have some dynamic portion build in, but not sure how much that is gonna add when it comes to a worst case 2.4 m fall (fall factor 2, which i think shouldn't be a position one should be in from the get-go).
For me, the amount of days i actually use those things currently can be counted on one hand per year...
Thanks for sharing.
Dave, where can we get that super short pur-anneau sling? And could you whisper in Petzl's ear to make a 240cm length one as well?
Yeah is called “cutaway for canyon club harness”. What do you need a 240cm sling for? I’ve not felt the need for one for years, just curious
@@DaveSearle Generally prefer over a cordalette. Easier to wrap back up. I got the 180cm pur'anneau and it's great, but isn't always quite long enough for some widely spaced anchors.
Thank you. Love from India
Thanks for watching!
When rappelling with a munter, I have serious doubts about whether to extend the prusik knot or the munter, since the direction of holding the rappel rope is upwards.
I know I shouldn't rappel with a Munter hitch, but if my ATC falls, I want to rappel safely using a third hand with my Munter hitch.
Are people replacing the autoblock with a VT? It just seems like such a superior hitch in so many ways. I use a VT above or below the device, depending on the rappel.
I encounter a lot of climbers using climbing-style rope handling and rappel rigging when I'm out canyoneering. I often wonder if some of the skills learned for canyons could transfer over to alpine rappels.
Another downside of a rappel extension is when a rappel station is low on the rock compared with where you can easily stand, since it makes it really awkward to weight your rappel setup. Cat In The Hat at Red Rocks outside Las Vegas has a rappel station like that.
What about forgoing the auto block by using an auto locking rappel device such as a mega jul in high friction orientation? Honestly, that's my favorite setup since it is so easy to setup and remove, which can help you move quicker... and sometimes you are rappelling quickly to mitigate a dangerous situation, so anything that speeds up the rappels can be very important in my opinion.
I’ve never had a worse time on a rappel than when I used a megajul in auto locking mode. So difficult to manage and bouncy. The alpine up seems like it works better but it also seems to bulky, heavy and complex to teach to a client.
Your example with Cat in the Hat is a good one. It's one of these kind of situations a climber eventually encounters in the wild and goes "wait, this isn't convenient or what I'm used" and can cause some panic or lead to a mistake. @DaveSearle if you have follow-up videos on rappel extension that talking about rigging on lower set anchors would be a nice demonstration.
What's your opinion on rappelling on an auto-tuber like the Edelrid Giga Jul? As you wont slide down the rope even hands free, can it therefore replace the auto-block?
Keen to hear your opinion on that!
Most of those have a rappelling mode that requires an auto-block setup. For me the third hand is there for more than just holding you from sliding down the rope. It’s also for that backup when threading your device. I’ve yet to use a device like the gigajul (yes I have used the older version) that I got on with in autoblock mode for rappelling.
Also interested in downsides of using break assisted devices like the edelrid ones for rappelling. Been using my megajul for a couple of years and generally do not add a autobloc knot. It took a while to learn to rappel with it without looking like a bungee jumper, but after a while it goes smooth with most ropes. One thing I have learned from rather sketchy situations is to use a prussik backup on unknown skinny ropes. Standing on a ledge and load testing by leaning back and bouncing a bit does not guarantee that it will block once truly vertical!
I'd also like to see a video exploring this topic. I love using the megajul (more than the gigajul actually) for rappelling, and I often use it as a stand-alone device with no auto-block because I've yet to encounter a situation where it doesn't hold me hands-free, and as such it greatly reduces my transition time, especially on routes with multiple rappels. That said, I know I'm accepting a fair bit more risk by not using an auto-block. I've also used the alpine-up and I really enjoy that device for rappelling too, it's just not great in guide mode and it's quite bulky compared with the megajul.
A belay extension, third hand, and autoblock is pretty archaic in 2024 (yes, I did it for 15 years). A GigaJul, Megajul, Smart, or other devices are so much better and so much less faffing around (do multiple raps with a partner using the system shown in this video is painfully slow). I assume when Petzl finally makes a modern rap device, all guides are gonna start making videos how old fashion the system shown in this video is.
Wait, should I use two, three, or four wraps on my backup?? Is my hollow block worn through yet? Anyone got a pair of scissors to cut my hair from my extended device?? Pretty wack with no benefits over a modern device.
And, a third hand as a back up "to clipping only one rope through your rappel device" is really stretching to justify this out of date technique.
I love your videos but Petzl is really lagging, Reversos were cool 15-20 yrs ago, not today, and shit they wear soooooo fast.
@@doughutchinson1736 I guess I'm going to have to reluctantly buy another one of those AB devices to try and see if I like a different one. I tried the mega jul and absolutely hated it. I also don't see how you can rappel smoothly and quickly with a mega jul without putting it backwards and having a backup which sort of defeats the point? Also in that mode its difficult to pull slack through when setting up and it's much harder to go into ascent mode if you need to half way down the rap. I feel I'm faster and smoother at rappelling with a reverso and have both hands on the dead rope. I also think that I can set up my device and the devices of my clients much faster especially with gloves on and it's cleaner and easier to check that it's been done correctly.
Hello.
Why can't I just put a prussic above the belay device and use it as a sort of handhold while rappelling?
The other benefit of the rappel extension is more comfortable rappelling. Your hands can easily both reach the rope, versus being off down low and to the side.
Great point!
Was just talking about this with a friend. I don't see a difference using a standard connect adjust versus another PAS system (beal jammy, slings, etc). Do you think the true value is in the dual variant? Is it for speed, ease of use, or something else? Its a big item to carry relative to alternatives.
This is something I’m going to talk about in my connect adjust video!
What's your go-to length presewn autoblock?
DMM Pivot for the win.
Good video.
I noticed that you clipped the third hand into your belay loop. This way the system is not redundant. I usually clip my third hand into both loops behind the belay loop
I would also like to point out one disadvantage of the system.
When an edge is passed and the anchor point is lower than the belay device it is tricky to pass the edge. Because of the device being closer to the edge than you.
I hope nakes sense.
When you say not redundant what do you mean? Do you mean that you feel that you could break the belay loop on your harness some why somehow? Belay loops are typically made of two loops of webbing sewn in a continuous loop. There has been 1 reported failure of a belay loop in modern climbing history and that is widely regarded as being with a very worn out and old harness. Good point with the passing an edge but I would say it’s normally very manageable because it’s rare you don’t have good footing when passing over a lip. I’ve never found that to be a big problem.
@@DaveSearle I do understand the strength of the belay loop and I am also familiar with the statistics (which proves that there is a possibility of a fail) but this does not exclude the fact that a simple clip on the loops of the waist and leg harnesses makes the third hand a full back up.
Same logic as the industrial harnesses:
For instance Petzl. The main device (ID for example) is clipped onto the D ring. But the back up device (Asap for example) should not be clipped onto the D ring but onto an alternative point.
It is just my opinion. I hope that makes sense. ✌️
@@naBkaK I think although it is important to look sideways at industrial rope access I don't think we should let that govern how we do things in recreational or professional climbing. The gear is very different and the systems also. Let loops on modern climbing harnesses are not designed to have autoblocks clipped to them.
Thank you
im so jealous of the ropes in the background lol.
My younger self is too!
PERFECT ..THANK YOU
The legloop method is still quite common in germany. I still see it all over the place, so I wouldn't talk about it as if it's in the past ;).
Extended belays can have a bunch of issues as well. For example, if you have to pull yourself up or ascend from a bad position, it's nearly impossible, which can be a real safety issue in some situations.
Prusik above is a bad idea imho. I want the belay device to carry the load. The belay device is much less likely to fail and if it fails, then the prusik underneath has a chance of holding you. If the prusik is above, the belay device does nothing, and if the prusik fails, it'll continue to do nothing (unless it's got assisted breaking which may or may not engage) (of course in hands of situations, which one shouldn't be in anyway, but stuff can happen, like getting knocked out)
It's not In the past I know. Just trying to send it there. ;-)
Also it pretty easy to flip the device into ascent mode and belay yourself back up.
Let's assume that you somehow flip it into ascend mode (assuming the belay device you're using even has one...) while the system is fully loaded. You're still not going to have much of a good time actually ascending without the ability to properly unload and pull slack through. Of course, you could try tying knots into the rope to step into, but on a dynamic rope, that's... eh... marginal. (With the belay device at hip / stomach level one can grab the rope above the device to unload it easily)
I do encourage you to suspend yourself on an extended belay and try to ascend on it without extra gear or a wall (or just a terrible one).
(Let's assume you somehow repelled the wrong direction, you were supposed to go left at that ledge but went right or something, and are lowering yourself into a waterfall and the rock is wet, up is your only good choice)
P.s. I use the extended myself. Though I like to keep the extension very short. And I wouldn't banish it to the past. Just like the munter, it's good to be proficient in it. Gear can be dropped or broken, if a prusik and an hms is all you've got left, you can still repell safely with the gear loop method as long as you're aware of the problems.
@@voidedname I think assuming anyone would ever rappel without some way to climb back up then get lost and stuck in some sort of situation is fairly unrealistic at best. But there is a way to do it using the tail end of the rope as a make shift prussik and creating a footloop with that and clipping the loop of the ATC into the prussik loop hole. as for just pulling rope through an extended belay device with a friction hitch yes that pretty much impossible. In the situation you describe then it would be best to create a foot loop above everything and then flip the reverso in ascend mode. Rappeling with a device without that makes life harder for sure!
@DaveSearle you'd assume so, yes. But then again, most climbing fatalities are from rapelling off the end of the rope cause they didn't tie a knot into it even though it's near universally taught. Making assumptions kills. People get rescued of walls because they misjudged something all the time.
Tying a foot loop on a dynamic rope on top of all the stretch and extra length needed to get a rope based friction hitch to bind safely on itself... never tried that myself, but I have my reservations in believing that you can successfully unload the belay device. It also assumes extra gear.
How you propose to tie a footloop above the extended (or non extended) belay is a mystery to me. You're not going to use the rope under tension for it. Depending on the extension, you may not reach far above the belay device in the first place, rope stretch is still a thing (if using the end of the rope), so you won't gain much height out of it, especially with extension butting it right against the belay device (agter rope contraction due to unloading). Unless you're proposing extra gear to do this, at which point I can also just fairy dust an ascension device into the situation and just use that.
I am talking about exceptional situations. You shouldn't be in them in the first place, but people get into them for numerous reasons and not always due to poor planning or fault of their own. If parts of the wall go, taking some of your gear with it, a particular zesty bird or surprise bee making you drop something, sudden rainshower forcing you to bail and leave a bunch of gear behind, etc etc.
I see no reason why we should try to push this into the past. I also strongly encourage anyone who climbs multipitch to be very comfortable with the munter hitch for the same reason (both belay and double strand rapell). It's potentially life-saving if you run out of options and potentially fighting onsetting panic, which may not be the best time to try a technique for the first time or even reinventing it, cause it was never taught to you. (Most likely is lack of gear, ascension is an extreme example, you're much more likely to just run out of slings or carabiners)
VT Prusik is easier to slide from above than an auto block prusik, no?
Yep but honestly I’m not carrying vt Prusiks in the mountains.
what is the min rating on the block rope, im using a 5mm rope with 6kn rating.
Should be fine. I would say it is nice to use a pre-made solution like the Beal jammy
Why don't u use a prussic above the rappel device? I was shown to use a prussic above a figure 8 rappel device (this is our back up descender) in a rope rescue course.
if you watch the entire video he goes over this with pros and cons
What about a shunt instead of prussick above ?
If you rappel on an autoblocking device like the giga jul or the gri gri do you still use a rappel extension / prussik?
I have always used an autoblocking device when belaying others and when rapping and never really understood the point of the prussik in the first place.
With a gri gri no, with a gigajul I’m not sure how that one works exactly but if it’s anything like the mega jul then it sucks to rappel with in autoblock mode so then you have to put it backwards and use a rappel extension and prusik. In that mode it’s much harder to go back up the rope using the device so it’s not so easy to handle in general.
@@DaveSearle I rappel in the autoblock mode and I am not sure what the issue is. It does block, which is marginally more annoying than using a tube would be, but prussiks are the same way.
I have noticed that on longer/faster rappels that the device can heat up, but it doesn't both me at all.
@DaveSearle, I used and abandoned the Megajul and Microjul for the reason you noted: Totally dysfunctional for rappeling. Since 2019 I've been using the Gigajul for double-rope rappels, with ropes MINIMUM 8.5 mm, with NO friction hitch of any kind -- based on the same reason I feel safe rappeling with a Grigri with no backup.
The Gigajul works well: I often let go of both hands for rope management etc., and it always holds...except with the 8.5 mm Beal Opera, and there is less than 10 M of rope below me. (There is too little rope weight to engage the brake assist on the Gigajul, and I will descend very slowly if hands-free. Not an issue, with knots always in rope ends.)
In Chamonix in 1983 I bought a Shunt. I loved that device as a rappel backup, and I always used it ABOVE my rappel device. (Sure, I had to bounce a bit after the Shunt was under load, to start rappeling again.)
I started climbing in 1976. So far I have never used a rappel extension and doubt I ever will.
Hi Dave, thank you for great video! One issue I have been encountering with extension is that rappelling isn’t smooth, the angle of the ATC and the rope seems to brake extensively and I have to lift the dead rope up to release it, so it’s a pretty bumpy ride. Ever encountered that problem? I use normal ATC device and Radline. Thank you!
Great, only thing to take care is it puts your ATC close to your face and therefore for people with long hair adds a risk to be aware of. Possible to add a Prussic above as well. Cheers
Didn’t quite finish the video before commenting?
@@DaveSearle yep sorry
i have an "issue" that the autoblock knot lots of time touches and pressures a tiny bit the strands which have the reverso/gg setup. What are your thoughts on that?
Sorry I’m not sure what you mean?
Just wanna throw that in, as I have been recently using and switching to a rappel extension with a prusik as backup.
One problem I see is (with the situation in 9:45), that when the prusik and rappel tool is engaging, and you are loosening the self secure lanyard:
If you made an error in connecting the rappel tool, you may not notice it, as both the engaging prusik (which may hold the weight right now) as well as the rappel tool are in the belay loop in the Harness...
Does anyone have a good solution to this? (My solution was, to loosening the lanyard only, when the prusik is not engaged...)
So if a rappelling climber is becomes, for whatever reason, what keeps said climber upright? The rappel extension DOES NOT lower the center of gravity in relation to the climbers point of support, which IS lower than climbers center of gravity. How would the rappelling climbers "system", as demonstrated, perform when the climber is inverted?
Boy did I mess up, climber for whatever reason becomes UNCONSCIOUS. sorry. And thank you.
That’s the big point of the rappel extension. Being inverted does not affect the ability of the autoblock to hold if the device is extended. There is nothing keeping the climber upright though and that’s a huge problem in a recuse scenario.
I have the single Connect Adjust. And I don't want the double version, honestly. I don't want another thing that's hanging around on my harness and has to be stowed somewhere, especially if it isn't needed 99% of the time and can easily be replaced by a sling once I do need it.
The downside of prusik baring load is that this is a piece that gets worn a lot from constant friction against the rope.
People are lazy and don't change them frequently, so under the full body load it may just fail one day while autoblocking.
As someone with long hair I actually find that my hair is less likely to get caught with an extension. I believe this to be because the ends of my hair are further away from the device. Great video though
Interesting, I’ve heard mixed opinions on this actually! Maybe I need to grow my hair out and make my own decision
May be educational, recently a channel filmed something getting caught. Misadventures Lab; Beards also
Hands free, no auto lock just wrap a leg.
Rappel and belay devices gave become ridiculously complex. Simple is better.
I used a simple two hole belay plate for 20 years, and a simpler one hole micro belay plate.
If you use a prussack loop you apply it above the belay device. There you have full control over the prussack entirely independant of the belay device. You can belay, they add or remove the prissack at will. Or even prussack of fixed protection. And walk away.
I had a situation where belaying a 78year old climber. I had to walk away to obtain additional rope to allow the lead to climb through a band of poor rock during an adventure climb. I used a system of prussacks to systematically add tape, and 6mm string to gain an additional 20m of “rope” and use an old school mountaineering under the crotch/over the shoulder belay. The prussacks attached to my pack filled with rocks as “fixed protection” it weighed more than I did so was adequate as a counterweight belay.
The 78yr old British Mountaineer society member was very happy with my belay. But was pissed at her selection of route. Next it was my turn to lead. And I got the worst case of exposure on the outside of an arrette. But climbed through. So much fun to be had at Charleston, South Island, NZ.
The climbs atr Charleston aren't particularly long.
The long hair thing is no joke. I've seen a couple of girls encounter that; device just winched her head right into it. (I didn't rap with anything except my hand on the rope for 20 years. No objection to the auto-block but this modern assumption that it's ABSOLUTELY CRITICAL is a bit much.)
Another great benefit, when abseiling off less than vertical rock, is that the extension keeps water off your crotch.
petzl simples and stops work very nicely for descending ropes. especially with a breaking crab.
Why not just put it in front of the atc?
Because the main force is better is in atc not the node