I’m a retired NFL OL. I have zero intention of ever climbing but your passion for super safe enough and showing how gear works makes me love the channel. Been watching 3 or so years now
@@johnnycigar3240 hahah my fingers are so destroyed from ball😂 I went the opposite route and picked up scuba diving. However I have such a tremendous amount of praise / respect to climbers
I do very little climbing, but am a structural engineer. I notice the multiple looped belay loops are laid up in a spiral configuration. The outer circle will experience more elongation than the inner circle. We can see this in your break tests, where the stitching first rips on the outer section. There is a unzippering mechanism happening to the stitching. This leads to a progressive increase in the tearing stress on the remaining stitching. In contrast, the 'infinite' belay loop has the stress equally shared through the entire circumference and the cross section. I believe that is why the 'infinite' belay loop are yielding double the breaking force compared to the 'spiral' belay loop.
As an engineer that makes a lot of sense. Doubling tripling it up doesn't make it stronger, it removes sensitivity to local wear as the forces can move around the ring
We need to make him a "full rate" fall simulator to see the shock absorption differences in these constructions. There is a whole other world of results waiting for him/us. He's going to need a lot more samples too.
I was on a climbing date with a Skinner (family member of Todd's) a number of years after Todd died. The harness I was wearing was so old and tattered I had tied my own belay loop to supplement the existing one. As I was tying in the gal just started shouting my name and looing down at the harness. It actually took me a moment to figure out what she was trying to communicate. All of a sudden being proud dirtbag didn't feel so proud, I went and got a new harness.
Love your channel. My background is soft shackles and mast climbing (sailboat). As you might know, I invented or co-invented the soft shackles you use. A lot of this work was chronicled on a Sailing Anarchy forum where a person with screen name Estar had a setup to break stuff similar to yours. One of the things he found, and the reason for my comment has to do with the different kinds of stitching I saw in this video. What we found was that stitching that runs parallel to the webbing, like a fairly popular X-Box stitch, fails because the device under test stretches before it breaks and that stretching breaks the stitching. I could see that happening on some of your tests. That is the advantage of having a series of bar tacks. The thread is not stretched as the material is pulled. I use my Sailrite zig-zag machine to put home made bar tacks in webbing. Estar tested that and it was super good enough. BTW, I am wondering if there is a harness that is a comfortable as a Bosuns chair for climbing a mast.
Try an Industrial Harness (something like the Petzl AVAO SIT FAST). Wider leg loops that really support your legs, also there is a seat that you can clip to your harness, makes it super comfortable. I work as an Industrial Climber and have done some yacht mast work.
I don't even climb rocks, I bought a harness to work on sailboat rigging because I dislike the bosun's chair. Yet I've spent the last week watching these videos every night just out of curiosity. Good stuff man.
This is awesome, because climbing wouldn't be what it is today without sailing. When it comes to ropework, we have taken soooo much inspiration from sailing.
Some people do both, especially when you've got to work aloft for a long time. Harness (on the inside) for safety, chair for comfort. It can be a little tricky to tie on, but if you're going up on 2 halyards anyway, you can just tie in to the harness and clip the shackle on the chair.
Try rock climbing at least once. If you're a sailor, I bet you already have strong grip and forearms. Climbing is mostly grip strength and balance, and it's also addictive
Hey I really want more experience boating and I fantasize about a life roving the coasts....got worse balance than a blind 3 legged beagle 😅 tac into the wind for me!
Todd Skinner died because his harness was old and had a very worn belay loop. His partner noticed this while they were rappelling g and pointed it out and Todd replied that he had a new one on order. If he he headed his partners warning his death could have been prevented in several easy ways: clip his belay device biner directly into hos tie in points. Thread a 4ft sling through his tie-in points , equalize and tie and overhand knot and clip the belay device biner to this extension point, Make a backup belay loop with a piece of cord, etc. The accident was caused by human error, not because belay loops are dangerous. In real world scenarios you will never find a scenario where you come close to 16kN of force on a belay loop.
One of My Absolute Favorite Channels to Watch! Your such An ASSET to Your Climbing Community! Although I'm a 71 year old Active Arborist I Truly Love the Passion You Have for Your Sport!
I think there are a lot of us 'Although I'm a...." here. I'm a sailor. Absolutely amazing channel. For the climbing gear, but also for anything from ropes, hardware, methods, dangers; and especially for the thinking. After all what's the most dangerous piece of 'kit' anyone can bring to anything? Assumptions, false assumptions, fallacious arguments. ("It's always worked before....") And "Someone on the internet said...." (Which I confess applies to me here.)
Presumably the reason belay loops are only required to be 15kn while everything else is over 20kn is that any piece of gear (other than the belay loop) could be clipped to a bolt or gear placement when catching a lead fall, which puts twice as much force on that component as the belay loop
I thought it was because people will clip/haul things that are not people so they need the other gear to be ready for dead weight falls. Nothing but people should be attached to the belay loop, so it just needs to be stronger than the human.
Plastics in general are resistant to acids because they are hydrophobic (don't absorb water). This is a vast generalization but for the plastics you are testing and the acids climbing gear might come in contact with in a house or car it is true enough. I would be much more worried about plastics coming in contact with common solvents (gasoline, mineral spirits, motor oil, etc.). Plastics in general are not resistant to these chemicals as these chemicals tend to be absorbed into or actually dissolve plastic. I can imagine that there is a solvent that would badly damage the belay loop but leave no obvious outward visual queue of that damage. Another possibility is bleach (laundry or pool chemicals), as the oxidizing effect would be similar to sun damage (fibers become brittle). Keep up the good work.
Maybe a good test would be running a belay loop on the machine that simulates wear (like years of rappelling and friction) and then testing it? A clean cut might be quite different from cyclical loading and friction when you're break testing. Just a thought!
Seems like the stitching was the weak point on the more 'normal' looking loops. If the abrasion was right at the seam I bet it could break low without looking suspiciously worn.
I was thinking the same: put a wheel over a rock and drag a belay loop on the rock for 10.000 turns (or 100,000) so it wears evenly on the whole surface. Then break test it.
I have been watching for a long time and love a good Soft Shackle. you are a true Asset to the community and you dive deeper into the rabbit Holes than anyone really should. Butt our community still has so much to learn, so I Plug your channel to all of my friends.
I have used the Misty Mountain Cadillac since 2000. Their shop is just an hour from my house and used it all over Utah and Arizona as well. I hope you love it as much as I do. So good.
Acids are only corrosive and bases are only caustic when they are wet. (Did you ever try to slip on handles bicycle handle bars? Impossible. Then you spray the metal handle with Windex or ammonia (a base) and the handle slides right on. But when the ammonia dries (faster than you'd think) it's permanent. And the tightness keeps out water which would reactivate the ammonia. But working water or ammonia back in there would be the way to remove it later. Ammonia is a Base who's properties are tastes bitter, is slippery and burns - like soap. Soaps also contain a lot of fat which is why a dry bar of it is still slippery. And some substances are completely or highly resistant to acids and bases. Like glass and some plastics. Terrific episode , and respect to Todd Skinner.
If I had any interest in actually climbing myself, I would buy from your store. I am living vicariously through you. All I have to offer is a thumb's up.
I laughed when you suggested double looping the soft shackle. Two weeks ago I made a longer than normal soft shackle out of 1.3mm Marlow D12 SK99 and got about seven wraps of it before looping the button knot. I'm determined that my ID card holder will not break off the pass retractor ever again.
I was taught from day one (decades ago), never to attach anything directly to, and only to the "belay loop". Never did, and never will. It's mostly there to keep your harness together.
I just checked out your shop for the first time, and it's incredible!! You have literally everything and so much info on everything and the layout is fantastic. It's like the shop every climber dreamed it could be like. Well done Ryan!
this channel legit rules!! subscribed.. i feel like im learning something 😅.. going to airborne school in the army they told us NOTHING.. Basically just "Jump NOW! Trust your equipment!!"
I was thinking the same thing. We saw that cutting thru the side is still strong enough but what happens if the "bar code" stitches on the inside of the loop get worn thru?
One alternative to a soft shackle that gets rid of the knot is to splice an endless loop of Dyneema. Tools needed are a D-Splicer, a way to cut the dyneema length you want, a few pins, a rope-safe marker to mark locations on the rope, and a needle & thread for final stitching & whipping to make it look nice. You can also do a sort of mini-spanset, splicing a multi-wrap loop of thin Dyneema inside an outer sheath (preferably of Dacron for max UV & wear resistance, but Nylon comes close and is good enough. Jan-Willem Polman has instructions for this on pgs 140-145 of his book "Splicing Modern Ropes". No bulge, plenty strong.
@@mmmmkkk Factory-made soft shackles still have the knot's bulk to deal with. An endless loop can be used where that's not viable. They're common in sailing.
I literally had this same thought. He did a video a year or two ago where he worked with a sailor and made this exact thing. I'm actually very curious about why that wasn't brought up in this video...
Since cutting through the webbing does not weaken it enough, what if the rubbing over the years abraded the bar-tack stitching on one side (since that seems to be the breaking point on most of these). If that is true, it would make the "infinite" loops much safer from normal wear and tear.
I'm really glad you tested the Sendero. I have been climbing on one for a few months and the belay loop has always weirded me out. It's just so different from any other harness I've used.
Thanks for breaking what seemed like a thousand bucks worth of harnesses for science (and fun ). Definitely useful and good to know my belay loop is super good enough.
I have loved this channel since the beginning, would be keen to see some swiftwater rescue setup and gear testing. Happy to share info from Australia/NZ
Thanks for the great video. I've primarily been a steep sport climber for almost 30 years and all of the harnesses I've retired were from wear to the leg loop tie in point of the harness. Years ago Arc'teryx made a harness that you could buy the leg loops separately from the waist belt so I was able to replace the leg loops when the tie in point wore out and the waist tie in point wore out before the second set of leg loops did. In most climbing applications, if the webbing is usually out of the sun and doesn't get contaminated, it seems that the belay loop shouldn't be the part of the harness weakening first.
Might be one of my favorite videos. A guide I have been with a number of times personally and also taken my instructor course with was the one that suggested I girth hitch both waist and leg instead of belay. His reasoning was to make the radius bigger esp because of the skinny sling I was using. I’ve since moved to an offset basket hitch with an overhand to make my tether and rappel extension most of the time I need one, and based on a video you did a while back, I use a nylon sling for it instead of my dyneema ones.
@@Ghostman719 it wasn’t something I learned in a video unfortunately. I was out with a climbing guide and that was how he suggested I rig a tether and rappel extension out of one double length sling given my rack for the day.
Sulfuric acid works very differently from formic acid. If you try sulphuric, don’t do it in workshop as the fumes can weaken stuff in the area, do it outside
I think cutting 3/4 through us pretty different to being heavily abraded, as every fibre might at some point be at the surface of the sling/belay loop. Maybe cutting/sanding through the surface 0.25mm all the way around might show that better.
you are right. Someone here in the uk did tests on various slings. With dyneema they could be cut 75% through and still perform well but when abraded with a matchbox across the entire width they failed easily.
I just love the amount of new merchandise you break for everyone's information. I think out of all the videos that I'm subbed to, it's always these I tend to watch to completion. I also have been rocking the same harness since 2016... I should probably check out your store.
It's really sad that all the great things that Todd Skinner accomplished in climbing and what an awesome dude he was are forgotten, and his legacy is reduced to "soft on soft."
So adding the acid is like cutting the belay loop partly. It weakens it but it’s still amazingly strong. I was surprised. Definitely another very helpful video!
Love the channel and all gear purchases possible get referred to you folks...Another great video. I would love to see one or literature of how the "runners" are stronger than the belay loops...???...that make no logical sense, yet you showed it!
I like how you point out the breaking strength of the human body. The Air Force has published papers on this for ejection seats and such, generally for fully harnessed subjects (i.e. best case).
Great video. And I appreciate that you tested the sendero belay loop. I got that harness a few months ago and when I put it on for the first time I was like that’s one skinny belay loop!
Great video! One thing that is pretty interesting about the strength of a belay loop is the tack pattern and how many times the needle goes through the webbing.
You wouldn’t ever catch me climbing a huge wall, or even in a rock climbing gym but I still love these videos. I greatly appreciate the time and all the gear you destroy on your own dime. I’m the guy that would use all three of those stacking loops knowing full well the harness would break before they do.
Ha, that's what I said, and now I'm collecting climbing gear and training at a gym. It is more satisfying and less difficult than many think. That said, I have a new respect for climbers!
I have an old harness that my gym won't let me climb in anymore, they set their max life at 5 years. I'd be happy to send it your way if it can add to a data set in any way. I was also surprised that the acid didn't do a ton. Looking at the chemical compatibility of dyneema and nylon, I'm pretty impressed, who knew?! I've heard/read caution of heat cycling soft goods, perhaps that would have an effect on strength? Thanks for all the interesting and confidence inspiring content, I've gained a lot from this channel.
Your videos are getting more and more entertaining. I love the way you present and discuss questions. I would definitely buy at your store because if sympathy, but you don't ship to Europe.
I would love to see you slice into both sides of the belay loop instead of just one. Take around 15% on either side enough to cut through that sewing on either side that goes around the loop. This would better simulate wear of both sides instead of a cut on just one side. Great video as always Ryan!
HowNOT2 Thanks so much for this! I've been so glad to have discovered this channel a lot. I'd never heard of other people having something like gear fear. Would you ever think about showing the screen measuring the force as it pulls. like just in the corner or something? That seems like it would be fun to watch 🤙🏻
I tie a double length sling using a bowline on a bight through the waist and leg loops making what I've always considered a kinda 2nd-ish belay loop and personal anchor/rap extension. AlpineSavvy has a writeup about doing a bowline on a bight to the belay loop, not like I do through the waist+leg loops (mimicking the belay loop) and I would love to hear from the community if what I'm doing is dumb or super good enough. And I'm using nylon slings to make it a little stretchy.
Yes this event resonates with me as i followed Todd's life and climbing career similarly as you did. I would love to dive deeper into this as i still don't know exactly if heat generated failure on the loop was the culprit or some unknown such as other wear and tear that we may not know of.
I like the climbing technology and grivel multi chain since it can girth hitch without pinching the tie in points together. It makes a little fixed loop
I love your analysis and channel and think "gear fear" has kept me safe for over 40 years of climbing. I have a difficult time believing that two apposing oval carbineers through leg and waist straps isn't superior to the belay loop for trad climbing. I always use smooth non locking gates with nothing to bind. Most of the (tri) loading is on rappel and using different carbineers over the years.
Hi, my belay loop had an accident one day and was cut almost half the way, it was a Petzl one and your test made me think I could have still use it! None the less I would never do that so I replaced it with a O ring from Petzl, light and strong (maybe a bit expansive but, you know...). I just have to be watchfull with not using steel carabinner with my aluminium O ring.
Oh and, thanks a lot for your tests and videos, I'm a rope access worker/technician and you have amazing content keep understanding better the gear we use and its limits
I have not seen this guy in a while, and I am impressed with how he has built his little company. It is important, we as consumers, support small businesses, such as this, and their hard working owners, and employees, as our government, and our greedy billionaires work feverishly to destroy them. No I am not affiliated with this company. I am just an old retired small business owner, impressed by a hardworking, creative, young small business owner.
I would love to work with all the buckles off of those destroyed harnesses, maybe we could do a trade, I make a lot of interesting outdoor products and bags … lemme know
The rings on rope access harnesses are also some of the least redundant parts of industrial rope access systems. It's certainly an interesting conversation.
.... Had to take a moment with that one 😂 19:35 Because your channel has grown so much, there are so many people who don't get this reference and no one believes me when I tell them!
Hey, I love the videos. Have you ever done a similar test with a base such as household bleach? I was always told that this would weaken climbing soft goods...
We often trust a single bolt and quick draw to keep us off the deck or to stop from hitting a ledge. I think redundancy is good in theory - but often not achieved in practice.
Appreciate the video, I was looking in to that very thing. Got a sport but looking for an upgrade. Misty mountain Cadillac with the extra belay loops seems to be the best around for comfortabilty and strength. Got this flake at Belle Island aid only. Once I get setup for that I should be able to do most things I'm thinking.
I would rather splice a continuous loop from dyneema than use a soft shackle for an extra loop. If bury makes it too long, double it up inside a piece of webbing buried in itself to keep it clean. Endless loop will not open. Never done one of belay loop size though, I hope there is not something impractical I'm missing. Of course, if you're not splicing it yourself but getting a commercial ready made one, that is a different story. Then you need a way to open one to connect it.
I always repelled with two biners through the waist&leg loops. And belayed on the belay loop with the biner through the main and a back up loop. I like redundancy.
consider this: all stitches are exposed (depending on design) there are many layers of fibers in the webbing, but it's connected with stitching that is all exposed. if the stitching wears out, the loop will break. also i think this may be the reason why the partially cut loop broke at the same force, because the stitching was the weak point?
CAMP makes some harnesses that have the no twist belay loop. Where you put your biner in between the layers of the loop. Might be something to look at im sure its super good enough but it made me take a douple look at my belay loop
I think this is a good demonstration that added margin of safety is not the same as more kN of breaking strength. More kN of breaking strength _might_ indicate a greater margin of safety but for belay loops it is repetitive wear that will erode the margin of safety overtime so the absolute strength might be lower than other kit but still have more material to cope with entropy integrated over lifespan. [Upvote for putting a belay loop (or similar) in the rub-master!]
I have re-done my petzl connects with smaller cord that I tie in the harness same as the climbing line. I think this causes less wear to the harness than girthing the belay loop. Also i switched to a double loop of titan cord for my soloist a long time ago. Made a more compact knot and knew it was stronger than a loop of 9mm.
Your timing couldn't have been better. I've got an old-ish blackdiamond harness that is strictly used for indoor top rope, so it's practically been babied for its entire lifespan. I'm planning on going to REI this weekend and was considering taking it and asking them about if I should replace it. Definitely not doing that now. It's super good enough, and will be for 10 more years if I keep treating it the way I have been.
Thanks for continuing the content. This may not be my favourite channel, but you are my favourite youtuber. Open, honest, non-conforming, inquisitive and often offering a dose of cheeky humour. Thanks Ryan, I appreciate you. I would love to see a very large sample size test of old equipement to see if they all stay super good enough for a lot longer than manufacturers recommend or if it's a bit of a lottery.
I've got a handful of discarded harnesses. Most of them wear down on the lower loop (part attached to the leg loops). This is because the belay loop and the rope rub that part the most.
My first harness was one of the original Black diamond BOD that was "wifi"...... as in, they didn't come with a belay loop. I know that you were meant to tie into it and belay from that, but we just used to use a "D" maillion quick link...... so steel!!!! Fast forward a few years, I have a different harness and I bought the original Petzl Zyper (for via farrata) to use as cow's tails. It didn't come with a webbing loop because it was the "good old days" when clove hitching onto your belay loop was still frowned on. My discovery that a pair shaped maillion quick link was belay loop size AND it fit the Zyper beautifully...... and it was also steel!!! Since then, I've updated to twin adjustable cow's tails (thank you Petzl Evolv Adjust), but I still really hate the idea of clove hitching to your belay loop (been out of the climbing world for about 20 years, so theres some mental whiplash due to all this new stuff). I also didn't like what the Evolv Adjust is rated for...... so I bought some climbing rope, replaced the rope part of my Petzl Zyper (I'm only using the part that anchors to your harness, via the pear shared maillion), added the 2 aluminium adjustable bits from the Evolve Adjust to the 2 cow's tails and put a stopped knot in the ends of the rope. So this is a very long and rambing story that has something that anyone could use as a homemade belay loop that is WAY stronger then your harness..... the pear shaped maillion quick link!!!! 😂
If I remember right, Todd had put duct tape or climbers finger tape on the harness in and around the belay loop or the loop itself. The lack of movement because of the tape wore the nylon out in places prematurely and could not be inspected well; and also because he simply did not want retire the harness.
Yes, I remember there was a lot of concern about the state of Todd’s belay loop. HowNot2 stated it was 20% worn through, but my spidey sense went off because I remember it being described as 80% worn through (I think in the RockandIce analysis).I remember this because everyone was horrified by the recklessness of using a harness in that state of distress, and we still discuss the tragedy as a cautionary tale.
To add a belay loop I use a Openable ring from petzl and it works perfectly for many different purposes, multi pitch applications or even rope access to add a chest progress capture such that a croll or a basic and having a light and fast rope access system.
I effectively make a second belay loop by attaching my personal anchor to my harness with a bowline on the hard points parallel to the belay loop instead of girth hitching. The bowline ring becomes the second loop, keeps the original free, all while having a personal anchor too
@@dubhunter nope, it is exactly like this bowline master point: ruclips.net/video/3N930_jt5HY/видео.html&ab_channel=HowToRockandAlpineClimb bowlines work well ring loaded
I'd say I've been watching this channel a looong while! I'm also your oldest and biggest fan...but wait... there's more... I'm also your Mama! So, I understand why its funny when you said it wouldn't be a HowNOT2 episode "putting a soft shackle where its not supposed to go" :)
I girth hitch my personal anchor to both hard points. Have been doing it for 15 years and it's never bothered me and definitely more redundant. It also keeps it out of the way if everything else.
Was waiting for you to break the BD infinite loop but I bet you were thinking, this is expensive enough. Great video, recommend buying from your store as I have already done.
![Gunna - HIM ALL ALONG [Official Visualizer]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/HiCxoDeo0hc/mqdefault.jpg)
I’m a retired NFL OL. I have zero intention of ever climbing but your passion for super safe enough and showing how gear works makes me love the channel. Been watching 3 or so years now
Go ducks.
I was just going to post the same thing! (minus the NFL OL and a shorter watching timeline) I love this channel!
go try climbing man it's fun
@@johnnycigar3240 hahah my fingers are so destroyed from ball😂 I went the opposite route and picked up scuba diving. However I have such a tremendous amount of praise / respect to climbers
@@adamtravan3946 Sco
I do very little climbing, but am a structural engineer. I notice the multiple looped belay loops are laid up in a spiral configuration. The outer circle will experience more elongation than the inner circle. We can see this in your break tests, where the stitching first rips on the outer section. There is a unzippering mechanism happening to the stitching. This leads to a progressive increase in the tearing stress on the remaining stitching. In contrast, the 'infinite' belay loop has the stress equally shared through the entire circumference and the cross section. I believe that is why the 'infinite' belay loop are yielding double the breaking force compared to the 'spiral' belay loop.
Great analysis ! 👏😏
As an engineer that makes a lot of sense. Doubling tripling it up doesn't make it stronger, it removes sensitivity to local wear as the forces can move around the ring
We need to make him a "full rate" fall simulator to see the shock absorption differences in these constructions. There is a whole other world of results waiting for him/us. He's going to need a lot more samples too.
I was on a climbing date with a Skinner (family member of Todd's) a number of years after Todd died. The harness I was wearing was so old and tattered I had tied my own belay loop to supplement the existing one. As I was tying in the gal just started shouting my name and looing down at the harness. It actually took me a moment to figure out what she was trying to communicate. All of a sudden being proud dirtbag didn't feel so proud, I went and got a new harness.
Love your channel. My background is soft shackles and mast climbing (sailboat). As you might know, I invented or co-invented the soft shackles you use. A lot of this work was chronicled on a Sailing Anarchy forum where a person with screen name Estar had a setup to break stuff similar to yours. One of the things he found, and the reason for my comment has to do with the different kinds of stitching I saw in this video. What we found was that stitching that runs parallel to the webbing, like a fairly popular X-Box stitch, fails because the device under test stretches before it breaks and that stretching breaks the stitching. I could see that happening on some of your tests. That is the advantage of having a series of bar tacks. The thread is not stretched as the material is pulled. I use my Sailrite zig-zag machine to put home made bar tacks in webbing. Estar tested that and it was super good enough. BTW, I am wondering if there is a harness that is a comfortable as a Bosuns chair for climbing a mast.
Try an Industrial Harness (something like the Petzl AVAO SIT FAST). Wider leg loops that really support your legs, also there is a seat that you can clip to your harness, makes it super comfortable. I work as an Industrial Climber and have done some yacht mast work.
I have a Weaver sling style harness that I find to be very comfortable.
@@greenbimoon 2nd the Petzl industrial harness.
I don't even climb rocks, I bought a harness to work on sailboat rigging because I dislike the bosun's chair. Yet I've spent the last week watching these videos every night just out of curiosity. Good stuff man.
This is awesome, because climbing wouldn't be what it is today without sailing. When it comes to ropework, we have taken soooo much inspiration from sailing.
Some people do both, especially when you've got to work aloft for a long time. Harness (on the inside) for safety, chair for comfort. It can be a little tricky to tie on, but if you're going up on 2 halyards anyway, you can just tie in to the harness and clip the shackle on the chair.
Try rock climbing at least once. If you're a sailor, I bet you already have strong grip and forearms. Climbing is mostly grip strength and balance, and it's also addictive
Hey I really want more experience boating and I fantasize about a life roving the coasts....got worse balance than a blind 3 legged beagle 😅 tac into the wind for me!
Todd Skinner died because his harness was old and had a very worn belay loop. His partner noticed this while they were rappelling g and pointed it out and Todd replied that he had a new one on order. If he he headed his partners warning his death could have been prevented in several easy ways: clip his belay device biner directly into hos tie in points. Thread a 4ft sling through his tie-in points , equalize and tie and overhand knot and clip the belay device biner to this extension point, Make a backup belay loop with a piece of cord, etc.
The accident was caused by human error, not because belay loops are dangerous.
In real world scenarios you will never find a scenario where you come close to 16kN of force on a belay loop.
Sacrificing so much of your personal gear that has so much sentimental value for science is pretty badass. Thank you!
Todd Skinner was a hero of mine. Most psyched climber I have ever met.
I assume you've read the book his buddy wrote!? It's worth reading if you haven't!!
One of My Absolute Favorite Channels to Watch! Your such An ASSET to Your Climbing Community! Although I'm a 71 year old Active Arborist I Truly Love the Passion You Have for Your Sport!
I think there are a lot of us 'Although I'm a...." here. I'm a sailor. Absolutely amazing channel. For the climbing gear, but also for anything from ropes, hardware, methods, dangers; and especially for the thinking. After all what's the most dangerous piece of 'kit' anyone can bring to anything? Assumptions, false assumptions, fallacious arguments. ("It's always worked before....") And "Someone on the internet said...." (Which I confess applies to me here.)
Presumably the reason belay loops are only required to be 15kn while everything else is over 20kn is that any piece of gear (other than the belay loop) could be clipped to a bolt or gear placement when catching a lead fall, which puts twice as much force on that component as the belay loop
Also, your back will most likely break with a force higher than 15kn
And belay loops don’t have knots put in them to weaken them
This makes a lot of sense
I'd still rather them be 22kN 😂
I thought it was because people will clip/haul things that are not people so they need the other gear to be ready for dead weight falls. Nothing but people should be attached to the belay loop, so it just needs to be stronger than the human.
Plastics in general are resistant to acids because they are hydrophobic (don't absorb water). This is a vast generalization but for the plastics you are testing and the acids climbing gear might come in contact with in a house or car it is true enough. I would be much more worried about plastics coming in contact with common solvents (gasoline, mineral spirits, motor oil, etc.). Plastics in general are not resistant to these chemicals as these chemicals tend to be absorbed into or actually dissolve plastic. I can imagine that there is a solvent that would badly damage the belay loop but leave no obvious outward visual queue of that damage. Another possibility is bleach (laundry or pool chemicals), as the oxidizing effect would be similar to sun damage (fibers become brittle). Keep up the good work.
Ozone? Gas from fridges etc can wreck plastics
Maybe a good test would be running a belay loop on the machine that simulates wear (like years of rappelling and friction) and then testing it? A clean cut might be quite different from cyclical loading and friction when you're break testing. Just a thought!
Seems like the stitching was the weak point on the more 'normal' looking loops. If the abrasion was right at the seam I bet it could break low without looking suspiciously worn.
I offerd Ryan my Harness. Maybe he'll consider it one day. My Harness ist quite .... used... ill hand him a pic later.
I was thinking the same: put a wheel over a rock and drag a belay loop on the rock for 10.000 turns (or 100,000) so it wears evenly on the whole surface. Then break test it.
Impossible to accurately simulate. You need an indicator in the actual harness and trash it once it becomes exposed.
I agree 100% just commenting to bump this more.
I have been watching for a long time and love a good Soft Shackle. you are a true Asset to the community and you dive deeper into the rabbit Holes than anyone really should. Butt our community still has so much to learn, so I Plug your channel to all of my friends.
Underrated comment
I see what you did there
I have used the Misty Mountain Cadillac since 2000. Their shop is just an hour from my house and used it all over Utah and Arizona as well. I hope you love it as much as I do. So good.
Acids are only corrosive and bases are only caustic when they are wet.
(Did you ever try to slip on handles bicycle handle bars? Impossible. Then you spray the metal handle with Windex or ammonia (a base) and the handle slides right on. But when the ammonia dries (faster than you'd think) it's permanent. And the tightness keeps out water which would reactivate the ammonia. But working water or ammonia back in there would be the way to remove it later.
Ammonia is a Base who's properties are tastes bitter, is slippery and burns - like soap. Soaps also contain a lot of fat which is why a dry bar of it is still slippery.
And some substances are completely or highly resistant to acids and bases. Like glass and some plastics. Terrific episode , and respect to Todd Skinner.
ammonia is volatile
Damn it man I'm here for the physics not the chemistry
@@chicken29843 😜
If I had any interest in actually climbing myself, I would buy from your store. I am living vicariously through you. All I have to offer is a thumb's up.
I laughed when you suggested double looping the soft shackle. Two weeks ago I made a longer than normal soft shackle out of 1.3mm Marlow D12 SK99 and got about seven wraps of it before looping the button knot. I'm determined that my ID card holder will not break off the pass retractor ever again.
I think you need more wraps.
I don't climb, but I'm about 93 hours into your channel.
So I setup a zipline low and slow, and life is happy.
21:08 -- Tridundancy! 😃
Love these videos and very happy with the service from your site.
I was taught from day one (decades ago), never to attach anything directly to, and only to the "belay loop".
Never did, and never will.
It's mostly there to keep your harness together.
Love this video. Any other nerds out there predicting the force based on the sound the rig makes? 😂
Wait, you mean everyone doesn't do that??
By far the best super good enough channel out there. Thanks for keeping us mostly safe ;)
I just checked out your shop for the first time, and it's incredible!! You have literally everything and so much info on everything and the layout is fantastic. It's like the shop every climber dreamed it could be like. Well done Ryan!
I haven't thought about the soft shackle going where it's not supposed to in a very long time. 😂 Thanks for bringing that memory back! 😂🤣😂🤣😂
this channel legit rules!! subscribed.. i feel like im learning something 😅.. going to airborne school in the army they told us NOTHING.. Basically just "Jump NOW! Trust your equipment!!"
It would be interesting to use a seam ripper or razor and specifically compromise the bar tacks.
I was thinking the same thing. We saw that cutting thru the side is still strong enough but what happens if the "bar code" stitches on the inside of the loop get worn thru?
One alternative to a soft shackle that gets rid of the knot is to splice an endless loop of Dyneema. Tools needed are a D-Splicer, a way to cut the dyneema length you want, a few pins, a rope-safe marker to mark locations on the rope, and a needle & thread for final stitching & whipping to make it look nice. You can also do a sort of mini-spanset, splicing a multi-wrap loop of thin Dyneema inside an outer sheath (preferably of Dacron for max UV & wear resistance, but Nylon comes close and is good enough. Jan-Willem Polman has instructions for this on pgs 140-145 of his book "Splicing Modern Ropes". No bulge, plenty strong.
or buy a factory made soft shackle :) They are popular in e.g. paralgiding now
@@mmmmkkk Factory-made soft shackles still have the knot's bulk to deal with. An endless loop can be used where that's not viable. They're common in sailing.
I literally had this same thought. He did a video a year or two ago where he worked with a sailor and made this exact thing. I'm actually very curious about why that wasn't brought up in this video...
You are the gift that keeps on giving, brother!!
You guys are the best. Keep this amazing information coming
Since cutting through the webbing does not weaken it enough, what if the rubbing over the years abraded the bar-tack stitching on one side (since that seems to be the breaking point on most of these). If that is true, it would make the "infinite" loops much safer from normal wear and tear.
Good point. This theory should be tested. Hint hint.
Or fatigue from use, not even abrasion, just bending 1,000 times.
I'm really glad you tested the Sendero. I have been climbing on one for a few months and the belay loop has always weirded me out. It's just so different from any other harness I've used.
did you see any red thread that they advertise for the wear indicator? i couldn’t see it in the video?
Thanks for breaking what seemed like a thousand bucks worth of harnesses for science (and fun ). Definitely useful and good to know my belay loop is super good enough.
I have loved this channel since the beginning, would be keen to see some swiftwater rescue setup and gear testing. Happy to share info from Australia/NZ
Thanks for the great video. I've primarily been a steep sport climber for almost 30 years and all of the harnesses I've retired were from wear to the leg loop tie in point of the harness. Years ago Arc'teryx made a harness that you could buy the leg loops separately from the waist belt so I was able to replace the leg loops when the tie in point wore out and the waist tie in point wore out before the second set of leg loops did. In most climbing applications, if the webbing is usually out of the sun and doesn't get contaminated, it seems that the belay loop shouldn't be the part of the harness weakening first.
Might be one of my favorite videos. A guide I have been with a number of times personally and also taken my instructor course with was the one that suggested I girth hitch both waist and leg instead of belay. His reasoning was to make the radius bigger esp because of the skinny sling I was using. I’ve since moved to an offset basket hitch with an overhand to make my tether and rappel extension most of the time I need one, and based on a video you did a while back, I use a nylon sling for it instead of my dyneema ones.
Hey, great comment! Would you mind linking that old video of his if you can remember something to search it by?
@@Ghostman719 it wasn’t something I learned in a video unfortunately. I was out with a climbing guide and that was how he suggested I rig a tether and rappel extension out of one double length sling given my rack for the day.
Sulfuric acid works very differently from formic acid. If you try sulphuric, don’t do it in workshop as the fumes can weaken stuff in the area, do it outside
I think cutting 3/4 through us pretty different to being heavily abraded, as every fibre might at some point be at the surface of the sling/belay loop. Maybe cutting/sanding through the surface 0.25mm all the way around might show that better.
you are right. Someone here in the uk did tests on various slings. With dyneema they could be cut 75% through and still perform well but when abraded with a matchbox across the entire width they failed easily.
I just love the amount of new merchandise you break for everyone's information. I think out of all the videos that I'm subbed to, it's always these I tend to watch to completion. I also have been rocking the same harness since 2016... I should probably check out your store.
Thank you for making this video.
It's really sad that all the great things that Todd Skinner accomplished in climbing and what an awesome dude he was are forgotten, and his legacy is reduced to "soft on soft."
So adding the acid is like cutting the belay loop partly. It weakens it but it’s still amazingly strong. I was surprised.
Definitely another very helpful video!
Got to love the soft shackles
Love the channel and all gear purchases possible get referred to you folks...Another great video. I would love to see one or literature of how the "runners" are stronger than the belay loops...???...that make no logical sense, yet you showed it!
I like how you point out the breaking strength of the human body. The Air Force has published papers on this for ejection seats and such, generally for fully harnessed subjects (i.e. best case).
You're a saint for all this work.
Great video. And I appreciate that you tested the sendero belay loop. I got that harness a few months ago and when I put it on for the first time I was like that’s one skinny belay loop!
Thank you for the high quality informative video as always! I'm local and have a couple decade old harness if you want to try to abrade the stitching.
Great video! One thing that is pretty interesting about the strength of a belay loop is the tack pattern and how many times the needle goes through the webbing.
You wouldn’t ever catch me climbing a huge wall, or even in a rock climbing gym but I still love these videos. I greatly appreciate the time and all the gear you destroy on your own dime.
I’m the guy that would use all three of those stacking loops knowing full well the harness would break before they do.
Ha, that's what I said, and now I'm collecting climbing gear and training at a gym. It is more satisfying and less difficult than many think. That said, I have a new respect for climbers!
I have an old harness that my gym won't let me climb in anymore, they set their max life at 5 years. I'd be happy to send it your way if it can add to a data set in any way.
I was also surprised that the acid didn't do a ton. Looking at the chemical compatibility of dyneema and nylon, I'm pretty impressed, who knew?!
I've heard/read caution of heat cycling soft goods, perhaps that would have an effect on strength?
Thanks for all the interesting and confidence inspiring content, I've gained a lot from this channel.
I really loved that softshackle hack with the 1/8th dyneema.
Really sorry for your loss man. Clearly his untimely passing affected you.
Your videos are getting more and more entertaining. I love the way you present and discuss questions. I would definitely buy at your store because if sympathy, but you don't ship to Europe.
I've always wondered how those harness loops hold up even after years of use and abuse. Good job! Picked up a thing or two.
I would love to see you slice into both sides of the belay loop instead of just one. Take around 15% on either side enough to cut through that sewing on either side that goes around the loop. This would better simulate wear of both sides instead of a cut on just one side.
Great video as always Ryan!
HowNOT2 Thanks so much for this! I've been so glad to have discovered this channel a lot. I'd never heard of other people having something like gear fear.
Would you ever think about showing the screen measuring the force as it pulls. like just in the corner or something? That seems like it would be fun to watch 🤙🏻
I tie a double length sling using a bowline on a bight through the waist and leg loops making what I've always considered a kinda 2nd-ish belay loop and personal anchor/rap extension. AlpineSavvy has a writeup about doing a bowline on a bight to the belay loop, not like I do through the waist+leg loops (mimicking the belay loop) and I would love to hear from the community if what I'm doing is dumb or super good enough. And I'm using nylon slings to make it a little stretchy.
As usual guys/Ryan, super informative, entertaining, and really thoughtful. Super great and then some👍😉
Gear fear gone. I also appreciate the redundancy discussion. Thank you
Super interesting, super surprising & super good enough Ryan, really like that gear loop testing.
Yes this event resonates with me as i followed Todd's life and climbing career similarly as you did. I would love to dive deeper into this as i still don't know exactly if heat generated failure on the loop was the culprit or some unknown such as other wear and tear that we may not know of.
I like the climbing technology and grivel multi chain since it can girth hitch without pinching the tie in points together. It makes a little fixed loop
That was strangely relaxing to watch! Too afraid of heights to be a climber, but i am a sailor and am often hoisting things, so…..
All of those harnesses can still be saved by a big locking carabiner to replace the belay loop. Misty mountains tactical harnesses all use a locker
I love your analysis and channel and think "gear fear" has kept me safe for over 40 years of climbing. I have a difficult time believing that two apposing oval carbineers through leg and waist straps isn't superior to the belay loop for trad climbing. I always use smooth non locking gates with nothing to bind. Most of the (tri) loading is on rappel and using different carbineers over the years.
Thank you for All that you do for us, Great Stuff that is useful. Stay Safe. Stay Well.
Thanks. Learned a lot about belay loops in this video !
Hi, my belay loop had an accident one day and was cut almost half the way, it was a Petzl one and your test made me think I could have still use it!
None the less I would never do that so I replaced it with a O ring from Petzl, light and strong (maybe a bit expansive but, you know...). I just have to be watchfull with not using steel carabinner with my aluminium O ring.
Oh and, thanks a lot for your tests and videos, I'm a rope access worker/technician and you have amazing content keep understanding better the gear we use and its limits
I have not seen this guy in a while, and I am impressed with how he has built his little company. It is important, we as consumers, support small businesses, such as this, and their hard working owners, and employees, as our government, and our greedy billionaires work feverishly to destroy them. No I am not affiliated with this company. I am just an old retired small business owner, impressed by a hardworking, creative, young small business owner.
I would love to work with all the buckles off of those destroyed harnesses, maybe we could do a trade, I make a lot of interesting outdoor products and bags … lemme know
The rings on rope access harnesses are also some of the least redundant parts of industrial rope access systems. It's certainly an interesting conversation.
.... Had to take a moment with that one 😂 19:35
Because your channel has grown so much, there are so many people who don't get this reference and no one believes me when I tell them!
Hey, I love the videos. Have you ever done a similar test with a base such as household bleach? I was always told that this would weaken climbing soft goods...
Considering how redundant climbing wants you to be, kind of weird all harnesses don’t have a double belay loop.
You are not redundant for most things you have control over.
and that everyone doesn't climb with twin ropes
Belay loops are two pieces of webbing sewed together though so redundant in some way
And we only rappel down one rope, unless you are using two tag lines
We often trust a single bolt and quick draw to keep us off the deck or to stop from hitting a ledge. I think redundancy is good in theory - but often not achieved in practice.
Appreciate the video, I was looking in to that very thing. Got a sport but looking for an upgrade. Misty mountain Cadillac with the extra belay loops seems to be the best around for comfortabilty and strength. Got this flake at Belle Island aid only. Once I get setup for that I should be able to do most things I'm thinking.
I would rather splice a continuous loop from dyneema than use a soft shackle for an extra loop. If bury makes it too long, double it up inside a piece of webbing buried in itself to keep it clean. Endless loop will not open. Never done one of belay loop size though, I hope there is not something impractical I'm missing.
Of course, if you're not splicing it yourself but getting a commercial ready made one, that is a different story. Then you need a way to open one to connect it.
I always repelled with two biners through the waist&leg loops. And belayed on the belay loop with the biner through the main and a back up loop. I like redundancy.
consider this: all stitches are exposed (depending on design)
there are many layers of fibers in the webbing, but it's connected with stitching that is all exposed. if the stitching wears out, the loop will break.
also i think this may be the reason why the partially cut loop broke at the same force, because the stitching was the weak point?
CAMP makes some harnesses that have the no twist belay loop. Where you put your biner in between the layers of the loop. Might be something to look at im sure its super good enough but it made me take a douple look at my belay loop
I think this is a good demonstration that added margin of safety is not the same as more kN of breaking strength. More kN of breaking strength _might_ indicate a greater margin of safety but for belay loops it is repetitive wear that will erode the margin of safety overtime so the absolute strength might be lower than other kit but still have more material to cope with entropy integrated over lifespan. [Upvote for putting a belay loop (or similar) in the rub-master!]
Awesome episode!! Thanks a lot Ryan.
Like other commenters have said, I'm not in the climbing at all probably never will be but I love your channel I normally watch the whole video
Stellar video Ryan. Nice work!
I have re-done my petzl connects with smaller cord that I tie in the harness same as the climbing line. I think this causes less wear to the harness than girthing the belay loop.
Also i switched to a double loop of titan cord for my soloist a long time ago. Made a more compact knot and knew it was stronger than a loop of 9mm.
Your timing couldn't have been better. I've got an old-ish blackdiamond harness that is strictly used for indoor top rope, so it's practically been babied for its entire lifespan. I'm planning on going to REI this weekend and was considering taking it and asking them about if I should replace it. Definitely not doing that now. It's super good enough, and will be for 10 more years if I keep treating it the way I have been.
Thanks for continuing the content. This may not be my favourite channel, but you are my favourite youtuber. Open, honest, non-conforming, inquisitive and often offering a dose of cheeky humour. Thanks Ryan, I appreciate you.
I would love to see a very large sample size test of old equipement to see if they all stay super good enough for a lot longer than manufacturers recommend or if it's a bit of a lottery.
I've got a handful of discarded harnesses. Most of them wear down on the lower loop (part attached to the leg loops). This is because the belay loop and the rope rub that part the most.
Thank you for all your videos. Great to watch. Great to learn about gear-fear... Bye :-)
My first harness was one of the original Black diamond BOD that was "wifi"...... as in, they didn't come with a belay loop. I know that you were meant to tie into it and belay from that, but we just used to use a "D" maillion quick link...... so steel!!!! Fast forward a few years, I have a different harness and I bought the original Petzl Zyper (for via farrata) to use as cow's tails. It didn't come with a webbing loop because it was the "good old days" when clove hitching onto your belay loop was still frowned on. My discovery that a pair shaped maillion quick link was belay loop size AND it fit the Zyper beautifully...... and it was also steel!!! Since then, I've updated to twin adjustable cow's tails (thank you Petzl Evolv Adjust), but I still really hate the idea of clove hitching to your belay loop (been out of the climbing world for about 20 years, so theres some mental whiplash due to all this new stuff). I also didn't like what the Evolv Adjust is rated for...... so I bought some climbing rope, replaced the rope part of my Petzl Zyper (I'm only using the part that anchors to your harness, via the pear shared maillion), added the 2 aluminium adjustable bits from the Evolve Adjust to the 2 cow's tails and put a stopped knot in the ends of the rope. So this is a very long and rambing story that has something that anyone could use as a homemade belay loop that is WAY stronger then your harness..... the pear shaped maillion quick link!!!! 😂
I've used Metolius SafeTech harnesses with double loops since I started trad almost two decades ago. Wound love to see how that compares.
If I remember right, Todd had put duct tape or climbers finger tape on the harness in and around the belay loop or the loop itself. The lack of movement because of the tape wore the nylon out in places prematurely and could not be inspected well; and also because he simply did not want retire the harness.
Yes, I remember there was a lot of concern about the state of Todd’s belay loop. HowNot2 stated it was 20% worn through, but my spidey sense went off because I remember it being described as 80% worn through (I think in the RockandIce analysis).I remember this because everyone was horrified by the recklessness of using a harness in that state of distress, and we still discuss the tragedy as a cautionary tale.
Its a good type of content. New unique angle. Many new traffic opportunities on youtube. Make more of this.
That is a very good and informational video. Thanks man!
To add a belay loop I use a Openable ring from petzl and it works perfectly for many different purposes, multi pitch applications or even rope access to add a chest progress capture such that a croll or a basic and having a light and fast rope access system.
I effectively make a second belay loop by attaching my personal anchor to my harness with a bowline on the hard points parallel to the belay loop instead of girth hitching. The bowline ring becomes the second loop, keeps the original free, all while having a personal anchor too
Also, shifting a girth hitch to a bowline takes only a certain wrap. Dead easy.
Isn’t it bad to cross-load a bowline?
@@dubhunter nope, it is exactly like this bowline master point: ruclips.net/video/3N930_jt5HY/видео.html&ab_channel=HowToRockandAlpineClimb
bowlines work well ring loaded
I'd say I've been watching this channel a looong while! I'm also your oldest and biggest fan...but wait... there's more... I'm also your Mama! So, I understand why its funny when you said it wouldn't be a HowNOT2 episode "putting a soft shackle where its not supposed to go" :)
Thank you for sharing this!
This video made go back amd look at old harness and belay loop
I girth hitch my personal anchor to both hard points. Have been doing it for 15 years and it's never bothered me and definitely more redundant. It also keeps it out of the way if everything else.
Was waiting for you to break the BD infinite loop but I bet you were thinking, this is expensive enough. Great video, recommend buying from your store as I have already done.