I saw the consequences of that once. I now don't do anything else whilst trying in, and don't talk to my partner whilst they're tying in either. Once I've started tying, I don't do anything else until it's done
Yeah I've heard enough horror stories about getting distracted and forgetting to finish the knot that I've ingrained that *all knots should be tied from start to finish in one go* and unless it's something trivial like shoelaces also *dressed and inspected* before doing anything else.
I just do a second check before taking my foot off the ground, no matter what we did before. I do it every time and I also already saw people starting with all kind of unfinished business... Takes less than 3 seconds.
This happened about two months ago at a local gym and no partner checks were done and the climber fell 60' from the top of the wall and all I know from a witness is that it looked really bad and the climber left in an ambulance.
arguments about whether the crux is 5.7 or 5.6, about whether the bolt line should've been modified since originally hand drilling a death flake, and asking about conditions of a climb for a trip next week with replies five years later. I forget why I have the app on my phone...
In many European climbing schools they teach to use 'figure 8' for tying into harness: - well dressed and tightened, so it can be easily inspected even from 5 meters distance. - the tail should not be much longer than 10-12 rope diameters (eliminates the issue of wiggling tail) - no extra stopper knots (they'll make uncomfortable to slide the rope with hand), don't do macramé The possibility for easy inspection is the main methodological reason why everyone uses figure 8 everywhere. This knot is not as strong, it doesn't like cross-loading, it's hard to untie. BUT it's so easy to visually recognize, that it makes all it's disadvantages miserable. No matter how comfy and strong your knot is, if your partner is confused by inspecting it. Not to mention educational benefits (having one standard, that works everywhere).
@@bohwazDutch instructor here. We say 10 times the thickness of the rope is the minimum tail length. That is 1 to 2 hand sizes for most people. Tying backup knots is not recommended. If your tail is too long just adjust your knot.
I have a discussion with a friend (who I sent this video to) about this. She likes the double bowline (which contrary to the shown bowline should be a good knot), but I prefer to use the eight because of this reason. It is alot harder for me to mess up.
Possibility of a bowline vs a figure-8 being tied incorrectly is huge because it's not symmetrical and you can't inspect it reliably. In most normal loading circumstances a figure 8 is very easy to untie. It's the king of climbing knots for a reason.
idk if intentional or knot, but after saying: "giving you a dressed figure 8" at 2:18 your figure 8 was not dressed. It was one move away from being dressed, this is a common form of the 8 that is mistaken for dressed, often, though not so much in this instance, the hardest to differentiate from a dressed 8.
That was a fascinating video. I tend to think that I know everything, because it seems that I have made all the mistakes. This video taught me that there was one more mistake lurking out there waiting for an ambush.
Bro I don’t climb I don’t use ropes or gear like you test on this channel only knots I tie are on my boots every morning but I have been watching this channel for over a year now and love watching you test this stuff and how you present everything to the viewer!! Awsome stuff man think it’s great!!
Your mother says... "stay away from the danger hole"😂😂🎉🤣🤣 Had me rollin. This has got to be one of your best videos. I love the detail and thought you put into this. Great stuff!
Haha! I love this video! I've always wondered about this. You explained everything perfectly for a knot geek! Like you mentioned, the main problem is buddy checking, it's too easy to mistake all these variants. I prefer a barrel knot above but close to the 8, no chance of a mistake and easy to check. +1 to the finish after the stopper knot, although again this makes it even more confusing for someone who doesn't know. 👍
In Germany the two currently recommended methods for tying in are: 1) a figure 8 with the correct length of tail (just follow the tail back through if it's too long) 2) a double bowline I prefer the double bowline, not that much harder to tie, seems just as safe and much, much easier to untie for a heavy climber like me
Correct me if I'm wrong, but a German double Bowline is often referred to as a rethreaded Bowline or a retraced Bowline in other countries. I was taught the knot by a German friend, and when I later went to look up the knot I was getting a very different knot until I realised this difference.
I learned to tie the bowline as a scout and picked up the bowline on a bight/rethreaded bowline/double bowline when I started climbing. It's always been my preferred method when I'm expecting to take a lot of falls.
@@FlorianSennBiz it's funny because it's both and neither. It's not CALLED a "Double Bowline" in English, but you also follow through so it's not on a bight. 😄 LANGUAGES! amirite?
I never liked stopper knots so it's nice to see some (light) pushback against them. When I was teaching lead climbing indoors I had someone fail the test because he clipped his stopper knots instead of the rope on his first clip. He didn't realize until he tried to climb above it too...
I am against them for this reason, and because the "backup/safety/stopper" knot is almost always tied incorrectly as a simple overhand or similar. if someone tied the figure 8 wrong, I guarantee the other knot is wrong, and it is just a means of making excessive tail look neat.
@@zacharylaschober I've got used to tying a proper stopper flushed with a dressed figure 8 very quickly and very neatly.. It's not necessary but it works for me.
Here in the UK Ryan. I was always taught that you do a single, double fishermans bend or double lock knot in you rope tail end right up tight against the Bowline or Figure Eight tie in knots & they'll never be an issue of failure. That was almost 45 years ago & never heard or seen it failing in that time
To pass any lead test in Australia you will need to tie a figure 8 with a fisherman's knot as a backup. For competition the backup knot has to be close to the fig8, with less than the width of a fist between them. would love to see the strength of the loop that this configuration forms.
Yeah stopper I was taught was a fisherman's (technically only half a fisherman's, as a true fisherman's each strand get the same treatment round the other)
Agreed, the stopper/fisherman's knot should always be right on top of the figure eight - that's how I was always taught and how I've subsequently taught, both professionally and casually.
I got into knots after seeing your spacenet vid from years back. Now im halfway up a rope treehouse enjoying more science from this channel than expected. Love your work!
I’m excited for the Bowline video! Please test the double bowline with yosemite finish AND the rethreaded bowline (not the same as a double bowline). I personally feel the rethreaded bowline is major overkill so I climb with the double bowline with yosemite finish (and sometimes a stopper after the yosemite) to prevent it from untying.
What is a double bowline for you? For me it is the same as a rethreaded, thats why I ask. The yosemite finish would be a finish on a single bowline (only one strand sees load) vs double (two strands see load). Does that make sense?
@@nicolaibatstad6881yes exactly. Doing a google search, the images describe what I mean correctly. A double bowline only has one strand through harness tie-in points, like a figure-8 knot.
If you have too much tail after tying a figure eight- don't be lazy, RE-TIE IT!, it takes minimal time and and you get the muscle memory about how much rope you actually need to tie it right in the first place. Adding all the options (Yosemite finish, overhand back-up, etc.) just increases the chance of a mistake/failure.
THIS THIS THIS - just learn how to tie a knot neatly. Take it as a matter of pride that you can even compesnate for different thickness ropes by guessing the length correctly. It doesn't take long to learn
I am all for this practice. it is strange to see some folks trust themselves to a knot when they have this extra arm length of tail with a simple overhand above, especially when the knot itself is a foot away from the harness... it's like being on a bridge on a trail with nails bent awkwardly. maybe it is made fine, but not confidence inspiring.
I really don't see how adding a stopper knot (e.g. barrel / fisherman's) increases the chance of a mistake. Yes, it has to be up-against the figure-of-8 but that's the same as "you have to tie the f-of-8 correctly".
@@simonrobbins815 A lot of people don't see how things can lead to mistakes, read the accident reports.... (watch the video again for a refresher about your specific question). Why tie an overhand? the only reason- you had too much tail. The only people I see tying the overhand are good climbers who are lazy or noobs who don't know better and watch the lazy people thinking it is there for a reason. And then the noobs clip the wrong thing...... As was said above and worth repeating, "Take it as a matter of pride that you can even compensate for different thickness ropes by guessing the length correctly"
Great video, thanks for taking the time to answer one of climbing greatest mysteries. I actually stopped tying a Yosemite finish years ago because I got tired of people telling me I was going to die. I don't tie a backup anymore I never grab the wrong strand when I clip and I don't have any one at the cliff getting mad at me... for a Yosemite finish. *sigh*
COOOOL vid as always! Thanks man! "double" bowline, or as we call it 1,5 bowline with a stopper knot Is what I like to use in Sport climbing and climbing gyms as lead. But in alpine situations, where I tend to climb easier routes (to have reseves in case of weather fatique, partner) and NEVER want to risk falling, I use the 8 with a stopper knot, for better visual and faster partner check
Bolan + your favorite stopper finish should be standard for EVERY climber. FIg 8's SUCK. You know how many fig 8's I have had to CUT OFF rope ends? Gah. What is funny this vid comes across my feed reminding me of when I got banned off summitpost for pointing this basic fact out that fig 8's roll and come undone in different scenarios. Ah, but newbies can't be bothered to learn a bolan....
@@w8stral So many different ways to tie a bowline, some of them it's like a magic trick. I haven't tied enough "two handed" so have to have a bit of a think about it or the tree ends up on the wrong side of the hole lol. Sometimes if the situation suits I resort to setting things up so I can tie it one handed which I have in muscle memory.
@@benoitcerrina Bowline or bowlan doesn't need to be checked visually and can be tied using a single hand and checked with a SINGLE hand blindfolded. The "check" is you tug on it. If its NOT tied correctly it is a slip knot. If it is tied correctly it holds in place. YOU NEED to learn it. Clearly you do not.
Thank you for such an informative video! I'm now a real fan of this channel which is newly discovered by me. The video doesn't show my favourite back-up knot which is the fisherman's or the barrel finish. If either of these is snugly tightened and snug to the knot they back up, they won't untie. Not only are they safer when snug in this way, they are also less messy and have less of a tendency to get in the way of clipping. I stand by my favourite method of tying in: Bowline with Fisherman's Finish. If there is even more tail available the Barrel Finish is even better! I have trusted this throughout my 33 years of climbing. I eagerly await your HowNot2 treatment of the Bowline.
Appreciate the acknowledgment/caveat that low sample sizes have higher error margins. Many would test once and claim authoritatively. I see it all the time, like tool testers who break one wrench.
Hi Ryan, thanks for another thought provoking video. I climb trees for a living, and for the past 8 months, I have been anchoring with a less than common knot while setting a choking canopy anchor from the ground using a throw line. Many tree climbers install a rope over a limb/union, bring both ends to the ground, thread tail through the eye of an alpine butterfly/Yosemite Bowline & send it up to cinch around a limb/union. This seems to follow the K.I.S.S. Mentality and safe at face value. However, in practice many accidents for people like me involve climbing on a less than “good enough” anchor point. At my company, a climber worked from his initial tie in point for hours before it failed. I know that production pressures and time consuming safety policies don’t always get along. The process of re-locating or re-configuring this “K.I.S.S.” anchor method can contribute to justifying a poor anchor choice while working in a tree. The process of re-locating the “K.I.S.S.” Anchor described above is time consuming. Disconnecting or un-threading your climbing device, pulling, stacking, un-stacking 200’ of 1/2” rope amid a tangle of foliage can make anybody dumb. Many tree climbers bypass this hassle by using a purpose built shackle to more easily open and close the loop, but it can be threaded the wrong direction. My employer and climbing competition rules prohibit using this device (Quickie). While scratching my head I learned about the knot I now use by watching a tree climbing competition. It is basically a mid line running bowline, tied with a 4’ bight. If you are looking for more knot projects, I’d love to know about potential failure modes and if my borderline superstitious overhand clipped to retrieval line backup is effective. Benefits include mid line -un tachable, tuning tail length to reduce excessive tangles and rope pulling, and extending rage of shorter ropes (tie on a retrieval line). I made a poor video demonstrating knot setup-see link ruclips.net/user/shortsuCywZfYA9NI?si=6a_EmNpotcKQL7_V
I used a bowline once when I was ice-climbing. It untied itself on the last pitch, and all the biners and ice screws fell down the hill. My partner, Tom Hargis, was belaying from the safety of a tree. I yelled to him that my rope had come loose and asked what I should do. His reply, "Ok, be careful". When we finished rappelling the route, we found the ice screws, and Tom said, "Jon, that's where you would have stopped sliding".😂 I sail now and use bowlines all the time. They seem to be mostly ok to untie. Until this video, I'd never heard of a Yosemite finish. But I learned climbing in Washington State, so there is that.
awesome, nice educational video of this currently quite popular way to tie of the tail of your highline leash. I buddy checked a friend last week and her yosemite finish was wrong. the tail was tied back to the same hole. glad i checked
Anecdotally I have been tying the figure 8 with the load strand crossing in the middle like you showed and it is much easier to untie after whippers than my partner's knots which are the opposite figure 8 (load strand on the top) and I'm 50lbs heavier. Also I do your "well-dressed" yosemite finish and that also helps me untie my knot while still looking clean and easy to inspect, whereas my partner does the basic fold and tuck yosemite finish, and that also gets super pinched making it super hard to untie.
The difference in how entertaining your videos are these days is a bit wild. This video in particular was great, and certainly earned every one of the 97k views.
A trick my Dad taught me back in the 90’s was to take the tail end and some electrical/finger tape and spiral wrap down towards the tail to keep the strands together and limit the likelihood of someone confusing the tail as a possible load bearing line. Example: (Visual Description - LEFT TO RIGHT OR “Loop To Rope” Progression): Loop of knot - figure eight - fist width tail space - then stopper knot. Then spiral wrap the tape from the “Rope” side of the figure 8 knot, down to the end of the tail’s stopper knot so the Rope and Tail are one. Doing this keeps someone from seeing the tail as a viable line to clip into or trust. It also keeps the tail cleanly out of the way.
Hehe the dressed 8 is crossed on the right hand side :P Not drastically but there's definitely a cross the right before the tail exits the final pass. The strands just need a little crossing back over as they exit to make it perfect. I know you know this ultimately doesn't matter though :P Love the videos dude, you're a gentleman and a scholar.
I love this nerding on knots and the loaded figure eight vs bowline is the reason I've been thinking of switching to Scott's locked bowline for tying in, but since the people I climb with are more familiar with figure eight I've still been doing that. On that note I'd really like to see a comparison between the different bowline alternatives and which of them slip/unroll etc.
Out of curiosity why that one? I don't climb, but in search of good knots I heard just as good things about the EBSB which has always felt prettier and, for me, is easier to check
For sport climbing, I loop my eight an extra time through the harness points before retracing it, then retrace as shown on the R knot at 4:12. (Topologically the same knot that you show, but imagine bending a roller coaster loop-D-loop into the top of your picture and then adding a harness to the mix.) I've been doing this for about 10 years and haven't noticed any difference in harness performance or longevity, and my knots are easy to buddy check and I think pretty easy to untie even after a lot of falls. I've never seen any science done on this system.
This is why I personally don't use the Yosemite finish. There are too many ways to get it wrong and it's too hard for my buddy to properly check it, but there aren't a ton of gains. I can tie a regular figure eight with a decently long tail, even if it's poorly dressed, and still be safe. The pros don't outweigh the cons for me.
12:52 The other helpful reason for a Yosemite finish becomes apparent when building an anchor, especially for rescue or guiding... If you tie your anchor with a double bowline on a bight, that "tail" is the bight. The Yosemite finish gives you a bight that becomes a fully rated master point. While guiding, it gives you an attachment point e.g. on a rap line for yourself or a second belay line. For hauling or rescue, it becomes another place to attach a redirect/haul system.
The load tests keep the load on the knot for much longer than a fall would and we can see that it takes time for the knot to unravel. So in real life there likely is some safety reserve.
Curiously, I have been told by many instructors when setting up a top rope anchor for trad, boa goes onto fig 8 loop which has anchor clove hitches on it. And belay device on the goes on the fig 8 loop too
My take away is to avoid Yosemite Finishes until my buddies and I can reliably inspect them. I'll just keep looping a stopper knot until the tail is consumed.
I agree I have problems with the Yosemite finish but it a not that a correctly done one can untie it is that I can’t check it at a glance while I can a double 8. And yes I do a stopper knot against it, not actually to prevent any rolling of the right but to make sure I have enough tail and that it is out of the way.
My buddies and I count parallels similar to the standard figure 8 method. With Yosemite finish it becomes 2,4,7,10 and 1 (the last single strand) or an alternative would be count number of strands in each parallel- 2,2,3,3, and 1 (last single strand). The stress is on the parallels like he showed. Everything is still parallel and pretty. Not sure if that makes sense.
@6'37" you have just demonstrated what I understand to be the traditional (sailing) difference between a bend and a knot, bends can be undone after being loaded.
bouline is the best at the condition you add a single or double stop knots (as close as possible to the bouline itself). very secure and easy to unknot
When I was starting climbing (back in 2003) I was taught to have 1 to 1.5 ft of tail after the 8. The safety knot was tied about 6" away from the 8, but with at least two wraps and as many wraps as needed to manage excess tail (some safety knots looked like nooses). The reason given was that while the safety knot was the last line of defense for a slipping figure 8, the most functional purpose was to damp any "whipping" motion coming down the rope as you got caught, which could cause a shock load as it entered the figure 8. Whether or not that damping would make a difference, I don't know, but that was the reason I was given for safety knots a hands width from the 8. Also, it was assumed that if you were dumb enough to clip into the safety knot you deserved whatever you got.
i’ve been a climber / arborist for 45 years and i’ve stayed alive for hundreds of hundreds of climbs using bowlines and alpine butterfly just because it’s fast to dress and set and fast to take out when loaded hard , with half hitches and cloves added to heavy lifts i’ve never had a dressed knot fail me at 200 lbs and my knots have always survived heavy loads tying limbs and stumps , this is a good video because a fig 8 in my opinion is something that should be mastered before using it when your life depends on it
Whatever happened to, “dress it and set it” ? After dressing it, if you can still see daylight through the knot (sometimes in several spots as you turn it), why would one not think it would excessively change shape when you load it. To clarify, I’m referring to lots and lots of RUclips channels who seem to think a single tug is “setting it”. I can’t remember who I learned this setting method from, but it stuck with me. I think the blond guy on “hard is easy” does this too. After getting the dressing exactly how I want it, I start setting with two strands per hand, not really hard. Pause and examine. Next comes one strand in one hand and the knot in the other. Run a circuit around the knot, pausing to quickly watch the dressing keep its shape. With the knot in one hand and one strand in the other, you can feel the knot settling in as it gets smaller and you can tug harder and harder until the knot stops shrinking but still retains its perfect shape. Whack that knot on a wooden table top and it sounds like a wooden knot. It is now set. It takes much less time to do it than to explain it, so don’t grease me for that. I would love to see fail test differences on this subject.
10:28 Another concern with tying backup knot so far away is that the loop created could potentially catch a quickdraw while falling, causing a massive fall factor (same reason why you should not tie a big loop to the harness)
A Yosemite finish for a Bowline goes in a specific direction. Interestingly, when you go in the opposite direction, it is considered more secure by arborists, the number one users of the bowline.
I work for a fire department. We cover an area where high angle rescues are a possibility. They are rare, but we do get them. And as such, we are all well acquainted with our gear (mostly the Rescue Systems MPD and the Petzel asap belay system). But we routinely go through these systems, usually once per week, and train on a lowering scenario, and a hauling scenario with a 3:1 and a 5:1 conversion. We have recently switched to the scaffold hitch on these systems due to the ‘possibility’ of ring loading a figure 8 on a bite and/or the possibility of gate loading a carabiner. But while I am familiar with the Yosemite finish, we typically use it for a bowline/ bowline on a bite and not on a figure eight. We follow through with the tail and go around the main body of rope (as you demonstrated with the figure 8) and not just right down the hole. We have found this to be the most secure yet. However, as I am sure it is well known, this only works for an inside bowline. Cant do the Yosemite finish on an outside bowline. To clarify, we dont use the bowline for our rescues or lowering/ hauling systems. We typically keep it reserved for hauling tools or ladders up onto a roof or some other non-life-dependent scenario. Thanks for the great video and teaching me something new🙌🏻.
I love your demo of the bowline vs figure 8... IMO, you demonstrated exactly why the bowline is used so heavily utilized in maritime scenarios. The knot is perfect for that scenario, when used correctly. I am not, at all, suggesting the bowline in climbing scenarios, with _some_ exceptions in well-experienced scenarios...... Know your knots, and know their applications. "Right tool for the right job". Back to the Figure 8, in my opinion, the best (and only way) to finish the knot is with an overhand of the standing end tied over the working end, well above the knot. That's what I was taught, and according to your testing, should not compromise the figure 8 knot, and should hopefully prevent the tail from following thru if the knot is loaded.
If you're using a stopper to stop capsizing, snug it up tight. If you're really worried about sideloading on your loops, use a different knot. Like the bowline with a snugged stopper.
Dang almost 300k subs. I subbed around 7 years ago just before the bolting Bible. I think you only had around 25k at that time. Nice to see your channel grow much love for you ❤🎉
Please, a video about bowlines! Can't wait! I feel like there's much more room to mess up than with a figure8. Someone ties single bowline, someone double, then there's the million different methods of finishing it...
This made me smile. To see a bowline being pulled tight on the other end of a figure 8 and the mention that bowlines will get you roasted in the comments were quite satisfying, so thank you for that. They aren't the strongest options, but both bowlines and butterflies can be *untied* after loading ;). A useful trait.
Returning to climbing after a 20yr absence to MTB I still use a regular figure 8 with a 2 turn stopper knot, but the young guys are using the Yosemite style for ease of untie...my only other knot is a clove hitch...I used a double stopper once to get off Prince of Darkness on rappel...I seem to remember that strength is related to the arc of the loops which why the 8 is so strong?
A backup knot has two functions: a) it acts as a 2nd knot in case the primary knot is mistakenly tied b) it prevents the primary knot from becoming untied in use. The danger of the various finishes is that a finish simply makes the primary knot just a different type of primary knot. If done right, the finish may make the primary knot less likely to come undone. But a finish is not a knot in itself, so it doesn't act as a 2nd knot if the primary knot is mistakenly tied. If the primary knot is mistakenly tied there is no backup. Also a finish that relies on how it is dressed, so as not to weaken the primary knot is surely a disaster waiting to happen. Ryan's idea of: 1) tie a primary knot 2) tie a backup knot 3) rethread the tail end into the primary knot would seem best practice. Though I didn't see this tested. Another episode maybe?
Neat, it would've been nice to see how a yosemite finish with a bit of extra room in it would behave though (like how I and it sounds like also you typically tie it)
02:17 is not a dressed figure 8. The strands are still crossing but they're crossing at the top so you can't see it from the front or the back but only from the top
Take it from an old timer; the idea of backing up your knot with half hitches came from using bowlines. The figure 8 was not used when I started climbing.
As a kid I always stopped my 8 with a fisherman and tightened it all the way down on top of the 8 with about 3” tail. As a teen and in my 20+ years I did the Yosemite finish. Now In my 40s I tie in with a bowline on a bight, finished with a fisherman tightened right on top with ~3” tail.
In germany the Bowline with a followthrough is standard. When you take a lead climbing course, it's what gets taught. One reason is because it's easier to untie, but the other one is because the "brezzel" or the 8 is not left behind and you can pull the rope through the rings when you're done. It is backed up though. you follow through and it ends up looking like a bowline on a bight
I thought the stopper knot was mostly just to keep the tail out of the way; to be clear I dont mean "um actually". I just thought the figure 8 was the safety knot, and the stopper was "just in case you have a longer tail than you'd like"
for the plots like at 3:45 you might as well give the mean and std dev for both sets of samples! and something like a histogram might look better? (bit low sample size for a histogram but the plot that you showed is a bit odd to have sample number on the x axis)
If I stretch out one arm and keep the other at a 90° when measuring 10.3mm rope at my gym it gives me enough for a figure 8 and a super close barrel knot. Keeps it tidy and "super good enough". Also, I tie like Ben from Easy is hard shows where the load strand falls in the middle of the knot.
Darn. I was going to watch videos about Ferraris that I can't afford, but this was too educational. Thank you for addressing the "dressed or knot" issue 😉
Another way that you can easily accidentally ring load your figure out is passing by a draw(usually a fixed one that is stuck open) and getting your loop made from your knot stuck in it. It has happened to me and I know of it happening at least once on video with Steve McClure where he had to stop his redpoint. I got ripped off the wall and whipped on it going for the next move because I didn’t notice too
Of all the places I avoid it is "chats" about climbing and especially knots of any kind. Everyone has an "opinion" and they all seem to believe they are RIGHT!!!100%...LMAO...From my perspective (and over 50 years of climbing including professionally in both rock, rescue, tactical rigging, and confined space) most of them are 100% WRONG and sniffing each others BUTT on this topic most often. LOVE this channel has the empirical FACTS come out literally in the video...As a point of interest...LOL...when I took my first AMGA test the instructor often used simple overhand knots and was the first person I know of to use the phrase..."strong enough."
Exactly what you say. Guides do tend to be able to judge 'strong enough', others might not. Facts do jump out in this excellent video but I'm not convinced that long duration pull testing reflects real world climbing situations so there is a bit more to this story...if you still have the will to live...or just tie a fig 8 dressed properly with an appropriate tail like folk have being doing for centuries and go climbing instead.
@@Clive-d3m For me...I think the..."long duration pull testing"...more than reflects the..."real world climbing situations"...and under the worst conditions again, again and again...but in a laboratory like setting. Ryan takes what..."is know"...and turns it sideways with his great videos...I'm not really sure he is out to "convince" anyone of anything really. Ryan's goals seems more empirical examination and result sharing...individuals can draw their own pragmatic and logical conclusions... I fully agree that if you tie a figure 8 properly you should be fine. The huge issue with that facet of the activity is the word..."properly"...as this video bring well into question what that is...and is it done consistently and does it behave the same way under all conditions, loads and types of ropes? After this many decades I see more "bad knots" than I do "good knots"...as for the..."figure 8"...No, most professionals in the vertical world do not use it at all accept in some rescue or midline application (thing directional figure 8 or figure 9.) The tie in I use and those I have ever worked and climbed with both here and overseas is some form of "bowline" knot with a tie-off of some kind...as well as a myriad of personal choices like a "perfection loop" bend that some prefer and I will occasionally use myself just to stay familiar with tying it...I can't think of the last time I tied in with a figure 8 actually...???...LOL!!!...Thanks for sharing your comment and thoughts on the topic...
Have a suggestion for a vid for you....saw a climber demonstrate a rappel using a 120 round extension/tether off his harness with an overhand on a bite in the middle that the ATC was attached to. I know the overhand on a bite is a great and easy knot for mid-rope knots, but I didn't think it was appropriate for loading a rappel device. I would go with the farmer's loop. Could you test which is the stronger mid rope knot, an overhand on a bite or a farmer's loop?
Super informative! But one thing I don’t like is the added level of complication you need to get the Yosemite finish to be safe. As a beginner climber, I feel like the purpose of the figure 8 is supposed to be that it’s bombproof while being relatively easy to tie and not get wrong.
Could you do some break tests on the equipment hunters use for climbing trees? More specifically the saddle hunting industry. Most saddle making companies use a lot of amsteel/ dyneema, and have their own branded carabiners that would be cool to see if they are actually good. And the rappelling devices guys use like the Madrock safeguard, Gri Gri, vergo etc. As well as ascenders like the wild country ropeman and kong duck. Also testing a scaffold knot on a quick link/delta quick link A lot of it is the same stuff arborists use
If I want to tidy up a tail that’s very long I just wrap it 2 or 3 times before following through, essentially doing a double or triple overhand knot as stopper. For me that is a quick way to tidy up excess tails without creating a big secondary loop.
![I.N "HALLUCINATION" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/n5B5q1Hwt_U/mqdefault.jpg)
Oh btw... don't forget to finish tying your figure 8. That gets people too!
I saw the consequences of that once. I now don't do anything else whilst trying in, and don't talk to my partner whilst they're tying in either. Once I've started tying, I don't do anything else until it's done
Yeah I've heard enough horror stories about getting distracted and forgetting to finish the knot that I've ingrained that *all knots should be tied from start to finish in one go* and unless it's something trivial like shoelaces also *dressed and inspected* before doing anything else.
I just do a second check before taking my foot off the ground, no matter what we did before. I do it every time and I also already saw people starting with all kind of unfinished business...
Takes less than 3 seconds.
If it gets Lynn Hill, it can literally happen to anyone
This happened about two months ago at a local gym and no partner checks were done and the climber fell 60' from the top of the wall and all I know from a witness is that it looked really bad and the climber left in an ambulance.
"on mountain project people are arguing"........ describes that website perfectly.
😂 this comment 💯
Very true! No matter the topic. Not high information density.
it's like the same 10 people trolling each other
Welcome to America
arguments about whether the crux is 5.7 or 5.6, about whether the bolt line should've been modified since originally hand drilling a death flake, and asking about conditions of a climb for a trip next week with replies five years later. I forget why I have the app on my phone...
This is one of your best videos. I appreciate finally having some answers about the Yosemite finish.
"The problem with a knot that's easy to untie is that it unties easy. "
In many European climbing schools they teach to use 'figure 8' for tying into harness:
- well dressed and tightened, so it can be easily inspected even from 5 meters distance.
- the tail should not be much longer than 10-12 rope diameters (eliminates the issue of wiggling tail)
- no extra stopper knots (they'll make uncomfortable to slide the rope with hand), don't do macramé
The possibility for easy inspection is the main methodological reason why everyone uses figure 8 everywhere. This knot is not as strong, it doesn't like cross-loading, it's hard to untie. BUT it's so easy to visually recognize, that it makes all it's disadvantages miserable. No matter how comfy and strong your knot is, if your partner is confused by inspecting it. Not to mention educational benefits (having one standard, that works everywhere).
In France the "official" rule is to do be able to do a stopper knot. If you can't tie a stopper knot, it means your tail is too short.
@@bohwazDutch instructor here. We say 10 times the thickness of the rope is the minimum tail length. That is 1 to 2 hand sizes for most people. Tying backup knots is not recommended. If your tail is too long just adjust your knot.
It seems, in these tests, that even ring-loaded the fig 8 is plenty strong. If properly dressed and tightened. 20+ kn is plenty.
I have a discussion with a friend (who I sent this video to) about this. She likes the double bowline (which contrary to the shown bowline should be a good knot), but I prefer to use the eight because of this reason. It is alot harder for me to mess up.
Possibility of a bowline vs a figure-8 being tied incorrectly is huge because it's not symmetrical and you can't inspect it reliably. In most normal loading circumstances a figure 8 is very easy to untie. It's the king of climbing knots for a reason.
Ryan your storytelling and editing on this video is top notch, well done!
idk if intentional or knot, but after saying: "giving you a dressed figure 8" at 2:18 your figure 8 was not dressed. It was one move away from being dressed, this is a common form of the 8 that is mistaken for dressed, often, though not so much in this instance, the hardest to differentiate from a dressed 8.
I caught that too. No twist and laying the loop over the flat ends works better.
Okay glad I’m not the only one. Needs to flip the two strands coming out the bottom.
I've never been so wrong. I will never do the yosemite finish incorrect again.
Same, I’ve been using the danger hole 😬 I’ve even been buddy checked by certified guides 😬😬
@@Jpwillia1 until this video, none of us really knew.
That was a fascinating video. I tend to think that I know everything, because it seems that I have made all the mistakes. This video taught me that there was one more mistake lurking out there waiting for an ambush.
Bro I don’t climb I don’t use ropes or gear like you test on this channel only knots I tie are on my boots every morning but I have been watching this channel for over a year now and love watching you test this stuff and how you present everything to the viewer!! Awsome stuff man think it’s great!!
Your mother says... "stay away from the danger hole"😂😂🎉🤣🤣
Had me rollin.
This has got to be one of your best videos. I love the detail and thought you put into this.
Great stuff!
Haha! I love this video!
I've always wondered about this. You explained everything perfectly for a knot geek!
Like you mentioned, the main problem is buddy checking, it's too easy to mistake all these variants. I prefer a barrel knot above but close to the 8, no chance of a mistake and easy to check.
+1 to the finish after the stopper knot, although again this makes it even more confusing for someone who doesn't know. 👍
Your in-depth research is very appreciated! Great channel!
In Germany the two currently recommended methods for tying in are:
1) a figure 8 with the correct length of tail (just follow the tail back through if it's too long)
2) a double bowline
I prefer the double bowline, not that much harder to tie, seems just as safe and much, much easier to untie for a heavy climber like me
Correct me if I'm wrong, but a German double Bowline is often referred to as a rethreaded Bowline or a retraced Bowline in other countries. I was taught the knot by a German friend, and when I later went to look up the knot I was getting a very different knot until I realised this difference.
I learned to tie the bowline as a scout and picked up the bowline on a bight/rethreaded bowline/double bowline when I started climbing. It's always been my preferred method when I'm expecting to take a lot of falls.
It's not the Double Bowline but the Bowline on a bight. Bit confusing cause in German it's "Doppelter Bulin"
@@FlorianSennBiz it's funny because it's both and neither. It's not CALLED a "Double Bowline" in English, but you also follow through so it's not on a bight. 😄
LANGUAGES! amirite?
@@TheMegaMrMebut it can be tied; on the bight. Just not onto a fixed loop.
I never liked stopper knots so it's nice to see some (light) pushback against them. When I was teaching lead climbing indoors I had someone fail the test because he clipped his stopper knots instead of the rope on his first clip. He didn't realize until he tried to climb above it too...
In Germany they teach to NOT use a stopper not because they are unsafe.
@@largeformatlandscape it's 50/50 in the US from my experience
I am against them for this reason, and because the "backup/safety/stopper" knot is almost always tied incorrectly as a simple overhand or similar. if someone tied the figure 8 wrong, I guarantee the other knot is wrong, and it is just a means of making excessive tail look neat.
@@zacharylaschober I've got used to tying a proper stopper flushed with a dressed figure 8 very quickly and very neatly.. It's not necessary but it works for me.
Here in the UK Ryan. I was always taught that you do a single, double fishermans bend or double lock knot in you rope tail end right up tight against the Bowline or Figure Eight tie in knots & they'll never be an issue of failure. That was almost 45 years ago & never heard or seen it failing in that time
To pass any lead test in Australia you will need to tie a figure 8 with a fisherman's knot as a backup. For competition the backup knot has to be close to the fig8, with less than the width of a fist between them.
would love to see the strength of the loop that this configuration forms.
Same in France 12 years ago
Sounds like something a Navy would require on a tow line. I approve.
Yeah stopper I was taught was a fisherman's (technically only half a fisherman's, as a true fisherman's each strand get the same treatment round the other)
Agreed, the stopper/fisherman's knot should always be right on top of the figure eight - that's how I was always taught and how I've subsequently taught, both professionally and casually.
I got into knots after seeing your spacenet vid from years back.
Now im halfway up a rope treehouse enjoying more science from this channel than expected.
Love your work!
I’m excited for the Bowline video! Please test the double bowline with yosemite finish AND the rethreaded bowline (not the same as a double bowline).
I personally feel the rethreaded bowline is major overkill so I climb with the double bowline with yosemite finish (and sometimes a stopper after the yosemite) to prevent it from untying.
What is a double bowline for you?
For me it is the same as a rethreaded, thats why I ask.
The yosemite finish would be a finish on a single bowline (only one strand sees load) vs double (two strands see load). Does that make sense?
@@niknik0815 it is a single bowline with an extra nipping turn.
@@nicolaibatstad6881yes exactly. Doing a google search, the images describe what I mean correctly. A double bowline only has one strand through harness tie-in points, like a figure-8 knot.
If you have too much tail after tying a figure eight- don't be lazy, RE-TIE IT!, it takes minimal time and and you get the muscle memory about how much rope you actually need to tie it right in the first place. Adding all the options (Yosemite finish, overhand back-up, etc.) just increases the chance of a mistake/failure.
THIS THIS THIS - just learn how to tie a knot neatly. Take it as a matter of pride that you can even compesnate for different thickness ropes by guessing the length correctly. It doesn't take long to learn
What about highline ?@@largeformatlandscape
I am all for this practice. it is strange to see some folks trust themselves to a knot when they have this extra arm length of tail with a simple overhand above, especially when the knot itself is a foot away from the harness... it's like being on a bridge on a trail with nails bent awkwardly. maybe it is made fine, but not confidence inspiring.
I really don't see how adding a stopper knot (e.g. barrel / fisherman's) increases the chance of a mistake. Yes, it has to be up-against the figure-of-8 but that's the same as "you have to tie the f-of-8 correctly".
@@simonrobbins815 A lot of people don't see how things can lead to mistakes, read the accident reports.... (watch the video again for a refresher about your specific question).
Why tie an overhand? the only reason- you had too much tail. The only people I see tying the overhand are good climbers who are lazy or noobs who don't know better and watch the lazy people thinking it is there for a reason. And then the noobs clip the wrong thing......
As was said above and worth repeating, "Take it as a matter of pride that you can even compensate for different thickness ropes by guessing the length correctly"
thanks bro you probably saved my life with this video no joke! GOD bless this man.
Great video, thanks for taking the time to answer one of climbing greatest mysteries. I actually stopped tying a Yosemite finish years ago because I got tired of people telling me I was going to die. I don't tie a backup anymore I never grab the wrong strand when I clip and I don't have any one at the cliff getting mad at me... for a Yosemite finish. *sigh*
COOOOL vid as always! Thanks man! "double" bowline, or as we call it 1,5 bowline with a stopper knot Is what I like to use in Sport climbing and climbing gyms as lead. But in alpine situations, where I tend to climb easier routes (to have reseves in case of weather fatique, partner) and NEVER want to risk falling, I use the 8 with a stopper knot, for better visual and faster partner check
Looking forward to the bowline video! I'm having a blast untying my single bowline with a double overhand stopper after one or several wippers
Bolan + your favorite stopper finish should be standard for EVERY climber. FIg 8's SUCK. You know how many fig 8's I have had to CUT OFF rope ends? Gah. What is funny this vid comes across my feed reminding me of when I got banned off summitpost for pointing this basic fact out that fig 8's roll and come undone in different scenarios. Ah, but newbies can't be bothered to learn a bolan....
@@w8stral So many different ways to tie a bowline, some of them it's like a magic trick. I haven't tied enough "two handed" so have to have a bit of a think about it or the tree ends up on the wrong side of the hole lol. Sometimes if the situation suits I resort to setting things up so I can tie it one handed which I have in muscle memory.
@@w8stralproblem is not learning to tie it. It is checking it easily
@@benoitcerrina Bowline or bowlan doesn't need to be checked visually and can be tied using a single hand and checked with a SINGLE hand blindfolded. The "check" is you tug on it. If its NOT tied correctly it is a slip knot. If it is tied correctly it holds in place.
YOU NEED to learn it. Clearly you do not.
Thank you for always thoroughly exploring and testing all of these scenarios! I really appreciate it.
Thank you for such an informative video! I'm now a real fan of this channel which is newly discovered by me.
The video doesn't show my favourite back-up knot which is the fisherman's or the barrel finish.
If either of these is snugly tightened and snug to the knot they back up, they won't untie.
Not only are they safer when snug in this way, they are also less messy and have less of a tendency to get in the way of clipping.
I stand by my favourite method of tying in:
Bowline with Fisherman's Finish.
If there is even more tail available the Barrel Finish is even better!
I have trusted this throughout my 33 years of climbing.
I eagerly await your HowNot2 treatment of the Bowline.
Appreciate the acknowledgment/caveat that low sample sizes have higher error margins. Many would test once and claim authoritatively.
I see it all the time, like tool testers who break one wrench.
As someone who has never climbed anything with a rope, and don't plan on it - why do I like your videos so much?????
Edutainment is a hell of a drug. I'm in the same boat.
How not 2 is
Entertaining
Informative
Breaks gear fear
Makes data public
Thanks ever so much. I've dropped this knot from my repertoire. I dislike hidden dangers.
Hi Ryan, thanks for another thought provoking video. I climb trees for a living, and for the past 8 months, I have been anchoring with a less than common knot while setting a choking canopy anchor from the ground using a throw line. Many tree climbers install a rope over a limb/union, bring both ends to the ground, thread tail through the eye of an alpine butterfly/Yosemite Bowline & send it up to cinch around a limb/union. This seems to follow the K.I.S.S. Mentality and safe at face value. However, in practice many accidents for people like me involve climbing on a less than “good enough” anchor point. At my company, a climber worked from his initial tie in point for hours before it failed. I know that production pressures and time consuming safety policies don’t always get along. The process of re-locating or re-configuring this “K.I.S.S.” anchor method can contribute to justifying a poor anchor choice while working in a tree. The process of re-locating the “K.I.S.S.” Anchor described above is time consuming. Disconnecting or un-threading your climbing device, pulling, stacking, un-stacking 200’ of 1/2” rope amid a tangle of foliage can make anybody dumb. Many tree climbers bypass this hassle by using a purpose built shackle to more easily open and close the loop, but it can be threaded the wrong direction. My employer and climbing competition rules prohibit using this device (Quickie). While scratching my head I learned about the knot I now use by watching a tree climbing competition. It is basically a mid line running bowline, tied with a 4’ bight. If you are looking for more knot projects, I’d love to know about potential failure modes and if my borderline superstitious overhand clipped to retrieval line backup is effective. Benefits include mid line -un tachable, tuning tail length to reduce excessive tangles and rope pulling, and extending rage of shorter ropes (tie on a retrieval line).
I made a poor video demonstrating knot setup-see link
ruclips.net/user/shortsuCywZfYA9NI?si=6a_EmNpotcKQL7_V
I was having this figure 8 debate with someone at a climbing gym last week. Perfect timing.
I used a bowline once when I was ice-climbing. It untied itself on the last pitch, and all the biners and ice screws fell down the hill. My partner, Tom Hargis, was belaying from the safety of a tree. I yelled to him that my rope had come loose and asked what I should do. His reply, "Ok, be careful".
When we finished rappelling the route, we found the ice screws, and Tom said, "Jon, that's where you would have stopped sliding".😂
I sail now and use bowlines all the time. They seem to be mostly ok to untie.
Until this video, I'd never heard of a Yosemite finish. But I learned climbing in Washington State, so there is that.
I love a good partner
[That was genuine, i can't stand when ppl make things more stressful]
I have never once seen a properly tied bowline fail like that.
We trace back bowlines pretty much the same way as a figure 8 here in Germany. Still pretty fast to tie. Easy to untie. And it won't come loose.
If you use a bowline, it should be retraced.
awesome, nice educational video of this currently quite popular way to tie of the tail of your highline leash. I buddy checked a friend last week and her yosemite finish was wrong. the tail was tied back to the same hole. glad i checked
HowNot2/ Ryan & Bobby are the modern day heros of climbing that we've been waiting for and yet don't deserve.
This is one of your most useful videos.
Anecdotally I have been tying the figure 8 with the load strand crossing in the middle like you showed and it is much easier to untie after whippers than my partner's knots which are the opposite figure 8 (load strand on the top) and I'm 50lbs heavier. Also I do your "well-dressed" yosemite finish and that also helps me untie my knot while still looking clean and easy to inspect, whereas my partner does the basic fold and tuck yosemite finish, and that also gets super pinched making it super hard to untie.
At the end the day it always comes too the actual weight/ force test in real life. So good we have slow motion cameras. Love the work. Thank you
The difference in how entertaining your videos are these days is a bit wild. This video in particular was great, and certainly earned every one of the 97k views.
A trick my Dad taught me back in the 90’s was to take the tail end and some electrical/finger tape and spiral wrap down towards the tail to keep the strands together and limit the likelihood of someone confusing the tail as a possible load bearing line.
Example: (Visual Description - LEFT TO RIGHT OR “Loop To Rope” Progression): Loop of knot - figure eight - fist width tail space - then stopper knot. Then spiral wrap the tape from the “Rope” side of the figure 8 knot, down to the end of the tail’s stopper knot so the Rope and Tail are one.
Doing this keeps someone from seeing the tail as a viable line to clip into or trust. It also keeps the tail cleanly out of the way.
3:55 mad props as usual for approaching the issues with a data and evidence based challenge
Hehe the dressed 8 is crossed on the right hand side :P
Not drastically but there's definitely a cross the right before the tail exits the final pass. The strands just need a little crossing back over as they exit to make it perfect.
I know you know this ultimately doesn't matter though :P Love the videos dude, you're a gentleman and a scholar.
Thanks Ryan!!!
I love this nerding on knots and the loaded figure eight vs bowline is the reason I've been thinking of switching to Scott's locked bowline for tying in, but since the people I climb with are more familiar with figure eight I've still been doing that. On that note I'd really like to see a comparison between the different bowline alternatives and which of them slip/unroll etc.
Out of curiosity why that one? I don't climb, but in search of good knots I heard just as good things about the EBSB which has always felt prettier and, for me, is easier to check
For sport climbing, I loop my eight an extra time through the harness points before retracing it, then retrace as shown on the R knot at 4:12. (Topologically the same knot that you show, but imagine bending a roller coaster loop-D-loop into the top of your picture and then adding a harness to the mix.)
I've been doing this for about 10 years and haven't noticed any difference in harness performance or longevity, and my knots are easy to buddy check and I think pretty easy to untie even after a lot of falls. I've never seen any science done on this system.
This is why I personally don't use the Yosemite finish. There are too many ways to get it wrong and it's too hard for my buddy to properly check it, but there aren't a ton of gains. I can tie a regular figure eight with a decently long tail, even if it's poorly dressed, and still be safe. The pros don't outweigh the cons for me.
no gains at all, really, over a proper fig eight
@brettyost6426 it gets the tail out of the way which is kinda nice
@@mattdryden it's not in the way if you tie in the right length 😉
Earned a like with, "Make sure your tree has roots"
12:52 The other helpful reason for a Yosemite finish becomes apparent when building an anchor, especially for rescue or guiding... If you tie your anchor with a double bowline on a bight, that "tail" is the bight. The Yosemite finish gives you a bight that becomes a fully rated master point. While guiding, it gives you an attachment point e.g. on a rap line for yourself or a second belay line. For hauling or rescue, it becomes another place to attach a redirect/haul system.
The load tests keep the load on the knot for much longer than a fall would and we can see that it takes time for the knot to unravel. So in real life there likely is some safety reserve.
Great video. Can’t wait for a similar video on bowlines, including rethreaded and Harry Butlers (my personal favorite for tie in) variants.
Curiously, I have been told by many instructors when setting up a top rope anchor for trad, boa goes onto fig 8 loop which has anchor clove hitches on it. And belay device on the goes on the fig 8 loop too
My take away is to avoid Yosemite Finishes until my buddies and I can reliably inspect them. I'll just keep looping a stopper knot until the tail is consumed.
I agree I have problems with the Yosemite finish but it a not that a correctly done one can untie it is that I can’t check it at a glance while I can a double 8. And yes I do a stopper knot against it, not actually to prevent any rolling of the right but to make sure I have enough tail and that it is out of the way.
Stopper knots can get caught in gear, especially when following. Keep an eye out for that, I've gotten smacked in the face with a draw before.
My buddies and I count parallels similar to the standard figure 8 method. With Yosemite finish it becomes 2,4,7,10 and 1 (the last single strand) or an alternative would be count number of strands in each parallel- 2,2,3,3, and 1 (last single strand). The stress is on the parallels like he showed. Everything is still parallel and pretty. Not sure if that makes sense.
A marlin spike is a very useful tool to use to untie super-tight knots, but you can only really use it in your shop or on the ground.
@6'37" you have just demonstrated what I understand to be the traditional (sailing) difference between a bend and a knot, bends can be undone after being loaded.
I just do the classic figure 8. My instructor told me to just tie one good with no extra tail and it's the safest.
good instructor
bouline is the best at the condition you add a single or double stop knots (as close as possible to the bouline itself). very secure and easy to unknot
When I was starting climbing (back in 2003) I was taught to have 1 to 1.5 ft of tail after the 8. The safety knot was tied about 6" away from the 8, but with at least two wraps and as many wraps as needed to manage excess tail (some safety knots looked like nooses). The reason given was that while the safety knot was the last line of defense for a slipping figure 8, the most functional purpose was to damp any "whipping" motion coming down the rope as you got caught, which could cause a shock load as it entered the figure 8.
Whether or not that damping would make a difference, I don't know, but that was the reason I was given for safety knots a hands width from the 8. Also, it was assumed that if you were dumb enough to clip into the safety knot you deserved whatever you got.
Best episode ever. Informative, evidence based sarcasm on steroids. Legends 👍😁
i’ve been a climber / arborist for 45 years and i’ve stayed alive for hundreds of hundreds of climbs using bowlines and alpine butterfly just because it’s fast to dress and set and fast to take out when loaded hard , with half hitches and cloves added to heavy lifts i’ve never had a dressed knot fail me at 200 lbs and my knots have always survived heavy loads tying limbs and stumps , this is a good video because a fig 8 in my opinion is something that should be mastered before using it when your life depends on it
Super quality infotainment!! Thank you for all your videos
Whatever happened to, “dress it and set it” ?
After dressing it, if you can still see daylight through the knot (sometimes in several spots as you turn it), why would one not think it would excessively change shape when you load it. To clarify, I’m referring to lots and lots of RUclips channels who seem to think a single tug is “setting it”.
I can’t remember who I learned this setting method from, but it stuck with me. I think the blond guy on “hard is easy” does this too. After getting the dressing exactly how I want it, I start setting with two strands per hand, not really hard.
Pause and examine.
Next comes one strand in one hand and the knot in the other. Run a circuit around the knot, pausing to quickly watch the dressing keep its shape. With the knot in one hand and one strand in the other, you can feel the knot settling in as it gets smaller and you can tug harder and harder until the knot stops shrinking but still retains its perfect shape. Whack that knot on a wooden table top and it sounds like a wooden knot. It is now set. It takes much less time to do it than to explain it, so don’t grease me for that.
I would love to see fail test differences on this subject.
Completely agree.
10:28
Another concern with tying backup knot so far away is that the loop created could potentially catch a quickdraw while falling, causing a massive fall factor (same reason why you should not tie a big loop to the harness)
A Yosemite finish for a Bowline goes in a specific direction. Interestingly, when you go in the opposite direction, it is considered more secure by arborists, the number one users of the bowline.
"make sure your tree has roots" i'm dead
Clearly, you forgot to check for roots! Enjoy the afterlife!
I work for a fire department. We cover an area where high angle rescues are a possibility. They are rare, but we do get them. And as such, we are all well acquainted with our gear (mostly the Rescue Systems MPD and the Petzel asap belay system). But we routinely go through these systems, usually once per week, and train on a lowering scenario, and a hauling scenario with a 3:1 and a 5:1 conversion.
We have recently switched to the scaffold hitch on these systems due to the ‘possibility’ of ring loading a figure 8 on a bite and/or the possibility of gate loading a carabiner.
But while I am familiar with the Yosemite finish, we typically use it for a bowline/ bowline on a bite and not on a figure eight. We follow through with the tail and go around the main body of rope (as you demonstrated with the figure 8) and not just right down the hole. We have found this to be the most secure yet. However, as I am sure it is well known, this only works for an inside bowline. Cant do the Yosemite finish on an outside bowline.
To clarify, we dont use the bowline for our rescues or lowering/ hauling systems. We typically keep it reserved for hauling tools or ladders up onto a roof or some other non-life-dependent scenario.
Thanks for the great video and teaching me something new🙌🏻.
Good info for highlines as well! Don't know how a ringload could happen there, but good to know that the "proper" yosemite finish is a good choice :)
You should make a short explaining the danger hole and the most reliable knots and then link to this explanation
I love your demo of the bowline vs figure 8... IMO, you demonstrated exactly why the bowline is used so heavily utilized in maritime scenarios. The knot is perfect for that scenario, when used correctly. I am not, at all, suggesting the bowline in climbing scenarios, with _some_ exceptions in well-experienced scenarios...... Know your knots, and know their applications. "Right tool for the right job".
Back to the Figure 8, in my opinion, the best (and only way) to finish the knot is with an overhand of the standing end tied over the working end, well above the knot. That's what I was taught, and according to your testing, should not compromise the figure 8 knot, and should hopefully prevent the tail from following thru if the knot is loaded.
10:45 is where it shows you how to properly Yosemite finish
In the rope rescue world we use bowlines as a life safety knot but it has to have a safety tied on the inside of the circle.
If you're using a stopper to stop capsizing, snug it up tight. If you're really worried about sideloading on your loops, use a different knot. Like the bowline with a snugged stopper.
Dang almost 300k subs. I subbed around 7 years ago just before the bolting Bible. I think you only had around 25k at that time. Nice to see your channel grow much love for you ❤🎉
Great work Ryan 👌
Please, a video about bowlines! Can't wait! I feel like there's much more room to mess up than with a figure8. Someone ties single bowline, someone double, then there's the million different methods of finishing it...
This made me smile. To see a bowline being pulled tight on the other end of a figure 8 and the mention that bowlines will get you roasted in the comments were quite satisfying, so thank you for that. They aren't the strongest options, but both bowlines and butterflies can be *untied* after loading ;). A useful trait.
Returning to climbing after a 20yr absence to MTB I still use a regular figure 8 with a 2 turn stopper knot, but the young guys are using the Yosemite style for ease of untie...my only other knot is a clove hitch...I used a double stopper once to get off Prince of Darkness on rappel...I seem to remember that strength is related to the arc of the loops which why the 8 is so strong?
A backup knot has two functions:
a) it acts as a 2nd knot in case the primary knot is mistakenly tied
b) it prevents the primary knot from becoming untied in use.
The danger of the various finishes is that a finish simply makes the primary knot just a different type of primary knot. If done right, the finish may make the primary knot less likely to come undone. But a finish is not a knot in itself, so it doesn't act as a 2nd knot if the primary knot is mistakenly tied. If the primary knot is mistakenly tied there is no backup.
Also a finish that relies on how it is dressed, so as not to weaken the primary knot is surely a disaster waiting to happen.
Ryan's idea of:
1) tie a primary knot
2) tie a backup knot
3) rethread the tail end into the primary knot would seem best practice. Though I didn't see this tested. Another episode maybe?
"some assembly required" ok that's priceless.
Neat, it would've been nice to see how a yosemite finish with a bit of extra room in it would behave though (like how I and it sounds like also you typically tie it)
Have you ever tested the fusion knot? We've used it in caving as an easy to undo version of the figure 8!
02:17 is not a dressed figure 8. The strands are still crossing but they're crossing at the top so you can't see it from the front or the back but only from the top
Take it from an old timer; the idea of backing up your knot with half hitches came from using bowlines. The figure 8 was not used when I started climbing.
As a kid I always stopped my 8 with a fisherman and tightened it all the way down on top of the 8 with about 3” tail.
As a teen and in my 20+ years I did the Yosemite finish.
Now In my 40s I tie in with a bowline on a bight, finished with a fisherman tightened right on top with ~3” tail.
In germany the Bowline with a followthrough is standard. When you take a lead climbing course, it's what gets taught. One reason is because it's easier to untie, but the other one is because the "brezzel" or the 8 is not left behind and you can pull the rope through the rings when you're done. It is backed up though. you follow through and it ends up looking like a bowline on a bight
I thought the stopper knot was mostly just to keep the tail out of the way; to be clear I dont mean "um actually". I just thought the figure 8 was the safety knot, and the stopper was "just in case you have a longer tail than you'd like"
for the plots like at 3:45 you might as well give the mean and std dev for both sets of samples! and something like a histogram might look better? (bit low sample size for a histogram but the plot that you showed is a bit odd to have sample number on the x axis)
If I stretch out one arm and keep the other at a 90° when measuring 10.3mm rope at my gym it gives me enough for a figure 8 and a super close barrel knot. Keeps it tidy and "super good enough". Also, I tie like Ben from Easy is hard shows where the load strand falls in the middle of the knot.
Darn. I was going to watch videos about Ferraris that I can't afford, but this was too educational. Thank you for addressing the "dressed or knot" issue 😉
Another way that you can easily accidentally ring load your figure out is passing by a draw(usually a fixed one that is stuck open) and getting your loop made from your knot stuck in it. It has happened to me and I know of it happening at least once on video with Steve McClure where he had to stop his redpoint. I got ripped off the wall and whipped on it going for the next move because I didn’t notice too
Of all the places I avoid it is "chats" about climbing and especially knots of any kind. Everyone has an "opinion" and they all seem to believe they are RIGHT!!!100%...LMAO...From my perspective (and over 50 years of climbing including professionally in both rock, rescue, tactical rigging, and confined space) most of them are 100% WRONG and sniffing each others BUTT on this topic most often. LOVE this channel has the empirical FACTS come out literally in the video...As a point of interest...LOL...when I took my first AMGA test the instructor often used simple overhand knots and was the first person I know of to use the phrase..."strong enough."
Exactly what you say. Guides do tend to be able to judge 'strong enough', others might not. Facts do jump out in this excellent video but I'm not convinced that long duration pull testing reflects real world climbing situations so there is a bit more to this story...if you still have the will to live...or just tie a fig 8 dressed properly with an appropriate tail like folk have being doing for centuries and go climbing instead.
@@Clive-d3m For me...I think the..."long duration pull testing"...more than reflects the..."real world climbing situations"...and under the worst conditions again, again and again...but in a laboratory like setting. Ryan takes what..."is know"...and turns it sideways with his great videos...I'm not really sure he is out to "convince" anyone of anything really. Ryan's goals seems more empirical examination and result sharing...individuals can draw their own pragmatic and logical conclusions...
I fully agree that if you tie a figure 8 properly you should be fine. The huge issue with that facet of the activity is the word..."properly"...as this video bring well into question what that is...and is it done consistently and does it behave the same way under all conditions, loads and types of ropes? After this many decades I see more "bad knots" than I do "good knots"...as for the..."figure 8"...No, most professionals in the vertical world do not use it at all accept in some rescue or midline application (thing directional figure 8 or figure 9.) The tie in I use and those I have ever worked and climbed with both here and overseas is some form of "bowline" knot with a tie-off of some kind...as well as a myriad of personal choices like a "perfection loop" bend that some prefer and I will occasionally use myself just to stay familiar with tying it...I can't think of the last time I tied in with a figure 8 actually...???...LOL!!!...Thanks for sharing your comment and thoughts on the topic...
Have a suggestion for a vid for you....saw a climber demonstrate a rappel using a 120 round extension/tether off his harness with an overhand on a bite in the middle that the ATC was attached to. I know the overhand on a bite is a great and easy knot for mid-rope knots, but I didn't think it was appropriate for loading a rappel device. I would go with the farmer's loop. Could you test which is the stronger mid rope knot, an overhand on a bite or a farmer's loop?
One of the best episodes ever.
Zeppelin Loop is the best, strong, doesn't untie very easily, but also doesn't jam
Super informative! But one thing I don’t like is the added level of complication you need to get the Yosemite finish to be safe. As a beginner climber, I feel like the purpose of the figure 8 is supposed to be that it’s bombproof while being relatively easy to tie and not get wrong.
I don’t climb anymore but I still love your channel.
I have never dressed a figure 8 in 35 years of climbing
Love the goofiness @9:11
A retraced figure eight that's properly tied, dressed, and cinched doesn't need anything more.
"It's not science unless it's a sample size of two." Love it!
I’ve watched a lot of your videos and I just decided to subscribe 😂
Could you do some break tests on the equipment hunters use for climbing trees? More specifically the saddle hunting industry. Most saddle making companies use a lot of amsteel/ dyneema, and have their own branded carabiners that would be cool to see if they are actually good. And the rappelling devices guys use like the Madrock safeguard, Gri Gri, vergo etc. As well as ascenders like the wild country ropeman and kong duck. Also testing a scaffold knot on a quick link/delta quick link A lot of it is the same stuff arborists use
If I want to tidy up a tail that’s very long I just wrap it 2 or 3 times before following through, essentially doing a double or triple overhand knot as stopper. For me that is a quick way to tidy up excess tails without creating a big secondary loop.