Only thing I think you guys left out was when Bobby was flaking the rope he let the ends get all the way down and just had the bight in his one hand. I normally just tie a quick overhand knot about 2 feet below the middle bight to make a loop. I clip that loop to my harness, put the middle bight in the 2 locking Ds, unclip the overhand loop and untie the overhand knot. I've seen people throw the whole rope over, on tall climbs the rope can get heavy and you can easily drop the rope. Just a nice backup and takes an additional 10 seconds.
Good suggestion to tie rope to top anchor when throwing over… though it sounds like you are tying rope to yourself temporarily. I assume your anchored at this point. But just so readers are clear. don’t tie a rope yourself and throw over edge. only takes one pull or the rope weight itself and your gone. My approach (in top roping) would be to make sure you are safety anchored, flake the rope if possible before clipping to anchor and throwing
I've been the guy getting my friends into climbing. I've set a few dozen top rope anchors. I would have changed a lot had I watched this first. This is great content. Would love to climb with Bobby.
it sounds like your friends have been lucky - not to have been injured. seek out someone with experience. if you make a mistake as a beginner in most things, you don't kill your friends.
I'd suggest the same as the priveous answerers. Best is to do a course. But for germans i would also recommend the "alpin-lehrplan 5" as it is (one of) the bible(s) for securing technique. Big contra of the book when you do not do a course is: you will not take everything as important. But fact is: it is so summed up, that moreless every sentence contains info to remember
@@thecma3 We have even longer words in Germany, this one's pretty short :D. "Halbmastwurf" is the German word for munter hitch and "Sicherung" is a noun that means loosely translated "to secure something/somebody".
Only caveat I would give is when showing the anchor made with the quickdraws. Bobby says the right thing that the carabiners must be opposite and opposed but they are not opposed. Gates should face outwards not inwards. Otherwise, great video! I will definetely use the quad more for the summer season! 🥳
Really nice video! The third quad really makes sense. I would love some "this is how you rapell down on your new anchor", since rapelling is quite dangerous if done incorrectly. Rapelling down is both fun and let's you inspect the route.
Awesome video. Thank you again for explaining why you should place your gear a certain way, plus points for the explanation about force bearing involving placing the HMS and D-Shaped carabiner. And Ryan, love your jokes!
Everybody always says to "like and subscribe" at the beginning of a video. Although, I will give you props for being unique with your ask at 0:40; saying we can always undo it later if we don't like the video. Innocent until proven guilty. Touché. You gained a sub and a like today.
Most of the time, that is to say on good, solid anchors, I use my anchor quickdraws which have extra long dogbones and locking biners. The biners are also different color so that I always use the same biners on the rope side. Bolts tend to wear the biners a little. Often the anchor bolts are not parallel so my setup is not self-balancing, but they are close enough so that the angle is acceptable. And the height difference between the bolts is short enough so as not to create much of a shockload in case one side fails. The main advantage is conveniance. It's really quick to set up and tear down, no knots to untie. Thoughts?
Looks like CRG. Was there last weekend and the water is super high right now. Someone currently has a high line and tag lines stretched across it. Appreciated the discussion on different carabiners!
I was out on a multi pitch the other day and did a quick body belay for my bud at the top. He had a mini-panic when he saw what I was doing. Could you do a test on how much force the average person can hold doing a body belay? It was slabby, very easy terrain and I was not worried about him falling, just FYI.
Any test would be pointless as there is no such thing as the average climber. Safety would depend on weights of both climber and belayer, belayers hand strength, whether or not belayer is wearing gloves, how slippy is the ground belayer is standing on etc. etc.
We are talking about how to do this test. I was thinking if Ryan could control the 60 lbs weight difference between us I would consider the body belay a success. I can hold him, see barbie vid.
Many climbers have ropes that have been chopped. I use these old rope segments to create top rope anchors. Most of the time, especially at places in the video, we can walk up to the anchor and rig. Often, I have 10 people climbing on the same anchor and having the peace of mind that the anchor is made of the same material as the rope they are climbing with is worth it. A couple years ago, I was climbing at Remillard in the Oakland hills. Fortunately, I had used an old climbing rope section to rig the climb. At the end of the day, I returned to look at the rigging and saw that the rope had been shredded by the rock. The sheath was completely cut away but the core was generally intact. Had I used a dynema sling, someone would have taken a ground fall. If you are climbing the same climb, with a group of friends, I strongly recommend using something beefier than a dynema sling. If it's just you and your buddy and you will switch routes occasionally through the day, such a sling is fine. As Bobby said, the dynema sling is plenty strong when it is NEW.
I decided to reply to your comment because some of the details suggested to me that there are dangerous issues at play here which might injure you or your friends. Most of what I say below is based on speculation, but I have tried to highlight my assumptions/rationale as a starting point for discussion. On the contrary to what you said in your comment, there’s a good chance the dangerous damage you saw was exacerbated by your choice of material; stretchy rope rubbed the rock more than stiff slings would. The abrasion you saw was almost certainly due primarily to the cyclic loading of the anchor as folks climbed, fell, climbed, lowered, etc. I’m guessing abrasion wasn’t caused by side to side rubbing, as there aren’t really traverses at Remillard, and I doubt there was a devious kid with a belt sander up top. So, I suspect this “bouncing“ as the main culprit. With that in mind, I think it’s worth noting that the same forces will cause an anchor made of climbing rope to rub more than an anchor made of slings and A LOT more than an anchor made of Dyneema slings. According to rough numbers from Edelrid (link at the end of my comment), I estimate that for a given force, climbing rope will stretch ~3.3 times as far as a nylon sling would. Using the same method, I estimate climbing rope would stretch over 22.8 times as far as a Dyneema sling would (i’d be happy to talk through the calculations, just ask). in short: a Dyneema sling would rub WAY less than your climbing rope anchor did. It’s certainly uncomfortable to have your load-bearing, life-trusting strands open to the air, and I understand how the sheath of a rope can be comforting. Indeed, padding the rock and preventing abrasion in the first place is a totally great idea. The floor mats from a car can often be laid over the edge to protect the system, regardless of what anchor material you are using. Alternatively, I have another theory. Many people trim their ropes specifically BECAUSE they are core shot/worn. You may have simply been using a piece of rope which was already core shot or almost core shot, which was made more obvious by its day of rubbing on rock. The fact that your comment can be read to imply that you are using the cut off ends of ropes given to you by other climbers (rather than segments you have trimmed off of your own ropes) further heightens the possibility that your anchor material was already damaged before the day began. On this note, I want to reiterate the old adage: soft goods can be damaged in ways that leave little sign of the damage. As such, I would strongly encourage you to think twice (or three times) before trusting soft goods whose history you do not know. This is just another reason why I would recommend against using pieces of climbing rope as anchor material. Regardless, feel free to reply to this comment/DM me, I would love to talk through what systems I prefer and why, and to swap beta generally. The numbers I have cited here all come from Edelrid, www.edelrid.de/en/knowledge-base/sports/strength-reduction-of-textile-materials-by-knots.php
@Eli Hiss Sorry, your suppositions are wrong. I used my own rope, not rope that other people gave me. Usually I use fat ropes, often 10.5 or even 11 mm static rope. Of course cyclic loading was the cause. Probably 30 people climbed that route. I'm convinced that had dynema been used, the result would have been a failed anchor. The best policy would have been to inspect the anchor several times during the day. As a cave explorer and a rock climber for 51 years, I'm quite aware of rope pads, thank you. The anchor, by the way, was a 3 point, equalized anchor. The 4 climbs rigged that day had anchors that were interconnected in case of a failure. The other climbs would have stopped any failure other than if the rope broke at the edge. If you recall, Remilliard is a volcanic rock, with sharp edges. Any rope or sling, especially dynema could be cut there.
Wow! Thank you for sharing, I find it interesting that beefy static rope displayed that issue, great to learn about. Stay safe, and I hope to see you around the bay
Funny how I thought I understand everything in this video a few months ago, but now that I‘m reviewing this, I see how much I missed or „just notted to“ without actually understanding it. Thanks for this wonderful resource!
Okay. Sittn here and tying an overhand knot. I do an overhandeye and coming from the bottom up with the loose end through the eye. Overhandknot. The loose end comes from below, against the gravity. Ever tryed to use an underhandknot ?. The loose end goes down the eye . Like screwing down the carabiner. I love this kilonewcontents coming from your channel. We call it Hausfrauenknoten.
I'm certfied in the french rope rescue system GRIMPE. We where tought to use the hms only for situations where there is rope movement in a carbiner, like with a top rope and don't use it for any other situation. Using a HMS in an other part of the system (metal on metal) creates little burs in the carabiner reducing the lifespan of the rope and when having the rope under hight tension moving true a burred carabiner...,well you can imagine what cutting a rope under high tension looks like. We use a single rope for rescue, compared to double rope in other systems. So we need to be 100% shure not to have a failure. So rope and equipemnt management is super duper important. Its probably overkill, but it doesn't hurt to use the HMS only in combination woth soft goods.
Ive personally climbed off a quad made from 1in climbing webbing and 6/7mm-ish cordelette. And in this excellent video, youre building one out of a dyneema sling. Slings are rated at 22kN. Webbing at ~18kN. 6/7mm cordelette at ~7-9kN. After watching your quad breaking videos, it looks like because everything is done on multiple loops, the material's strength always gets multiplied (the sling quad broke at ~40kN, 6mm cord quad broke ~32kN). So my question: is there any general consensus on what material would be best out of the three? And why? Any of the three to avoid? Or is it all just personal preference vs cost (sling being the most expensive material to start with)? Thank you so much for the detailed info/video!
Well done gents. When I'm with a large group, TRing easy easy stuff, I use two short slings (30 cm nylon) with 4 locking biners. Super quick, long enough to avoid rock abrasion, and locking is good!
do you climb the same route every time? you don't want the rope dragging overall corners. you want to minimize dragging that rope over the rock. some places I've taken people top roping do t have anything to anchor to for 30 feet or more.
While toproping outdoors I also always ask everyone to leave a Quickdraw in place at the last bolt before the anchor (so when leading but can also do the same while lowering down from the top of a route). Only remove that when cleaning the route so if you have anchor failure, you might take a bigger fall but atleast not to the ground as you're protected by another bolt. Maybe its a useful tip for anyone!
@@colinandrew8573 that's not the point Colin. Why is it recommended to use 2 anchor bolts at the top for lowering? Because of redundancy. How much redundancy is your choice & I prefer 3 points of protection because the top anchors are most frequently used so take in more wear & tear from falls than the 2nd last bolt. Their likelihood of failure is higher than other bolts. But at the end of the day it's your choice. If the 2nd last bolt is not place optimally in relation to the top anchor, then don't use that.
There are multiple videos of vibration making the gate twist up instead of down. Vibration is much stronger than gravity. Seems like something you could test!
I can't understand why they don't use a double fisherman's instead of that overhand. They alluded to having had good test results with the over hand knot. For pulling a rope down in canyoneering or on a long series of raps, it's a great knot. However, Bobby mentioned that you need a long tail because the knot can unwrap. That knot has been known in the climbing community for unwrapping for years. I don't see any reason to risk that. If someone doesn't tie the overhand tightly, it will increase the odds of it unwrapping. With a double fisherman's you won't have that problem. Possibly the double fisherman's is a tad weaker, but I'd like to see their test results on that. That being said, these guys put a huge effort into their tests and their results need to be considered. As for me and my students, we will stick with the double fisherman's. I've seen so many people construct a quad and only use two lines instead of all 4. Bobby's way is much better. His explanation of why not to use a pear biner at the bolts was also interesting. It saves us 1 kN out of 20 something.
I'm just new to climbing and what I did for top rope anchors was buy 2 steel screw locking carabiners for the wall side, two dogbones, and two aluminum screw lock carabiners with steel inserts for rope side to avoid wear. It seems this is completely redundnant and has the advatages of the sling style you describe without needing knots, but also has the advantage of the dogbone keeping the rope side from twisting so the carabiners will always stay opposite no matter how they are shaken or moved. It seems like the two drawbacks you mentioned, angle and not locking, are both solved by just using longer dog bones and using screwlock carabiners. Am I wrong there?
In Germany I learned a method similar to the 4th one of this video. If the two bolts are not connected with a chain, you clip the rope into the lower bolt with two opposing quickdraws. Then you use a longer single quickdraw to connect the upper bolt with the rope, there should be no load on that quickdraw.
What we usually do is similar. On the lower bolt we either place a carabiner directly (if the orientation of the bolt is correct for that), or a custom made quickdraw with locking carabiners on either side. On the other bolt we use either a quickdraw with two locking carabiners, or a sling with a locking carabiner in a way that it doesn't carry any load.
I simply ordered a dogbone and two locking carabiners to make a locking quickdraw. I tend to use that in tandem with a standard quickdraw, and also make them opposite and opposed. Usually all of the weight is going through one, but when you're sport climbing, all your whippers are on one bolt, so I think it's reasonable to top rope like that, and if it fails, you'll get caught by the other draw, and the fall is a lot shorter distance than a sport climbing whipper
Hi thank you very much for this video. With the 3rd method, why don't you add a twist on each double strand where you clip the carabiners? Cause even with all the redundancies, if one anchor fails, the carabiners are free? Thank you
I top rope often and use a equalette made from static line and steel biners...bomber, and the steel biners keeps the rope clean...I use tied 1 inch tubular webbing to extend anchors and the self adjusting nature of the equalette makes set up super easy....
good job. the only thing i dislike is the missing of knots in the ends of the rope for reppaling. just a good habit in my opinion. Keep the good content comming
What rappeling? This area and many other TR areas have easy walk off don't require rappelling. Always consider tieing knots if you are actually rappeling.
I do walk down there bc it is faster than getting on and off rap. Raps are a bit challenging there as it awkward to get below the anchor. Definitely not the case everywhere tho.
I like the idea of a double sliding x for solo top roping (at least from what I've seen), but what's with the knots in the sling? I thought that putting knots in dyneema significantly weakens the Kn it can withstand. Thoughts?
From what i know.. a knot in a dyneema sling lowers the kn strength around 75% ! Knots in dyneema also start to Wander already at 2 kn of intake. Dyneema is not Made for knots. This is Why a knotted cordellette made of dyneema shouldn't be used as a sling that is supposed to take Heavy intake. If the knot slips it can end badly. There is a special slingknot That is recommended to tie the End of a nylon sling. To Use it around a tree of something. This knot is the only knot know as 100% Safe Not to open.
17:38 - HowNOT2 knows, but for others that do not, it's good to tie some type of barrel/stopper knot when rappelling at the end of the rope. I clip a bite of rope near the middle-point to the anchor before tossing it down as to not drop it. I'm clumsy like that. lol.
Same thing I noticed. Everything in the video is perfect but for rappelling you do need to put stopper knots in the two ends as way too much people have died not doing that.
@@Mike-oz4cv I don't feel like they're showing a lot of dangerous stuff that they shouldn't. They're doing a great job in educating people and letting them learn from there mistakes. No one is perfect and so no video is perfect. We can help them in this way.
@@Skydiverugby you don't need knots if you know your rope reaches the bottom. Also,knots can get lodged in cracks and be irretrievable if not just nasty to get out, or put you in a situation mid-rappel where you get stuck.
Great video! With the 240cm sling anchor, when you put the 2 carabiners on 2 strands each, is there a right and wrong combination of strands or is it ok to just randomly select two for each carabiner?
loved the video! To save time, I will often pre-tie the end of my ropes to biners so I can just clip in to my equalized anchor at the mountain. Am I losing strength or lifespan on my ropes if I leave them tied for long periods of time? Thanks guys! :)
You pre- tie the end of your rope so you can just clip on to your equalized anchor? That means sense at all. If you've git the end ofyour rope with a knot in the end,, YOU'RE NOT TOO ROPING!! In top roping, the rope should be TIED TO YOUR HARNESS! The other end of the rope is down with your belayer. If you're leading, how did that nice equalized anchor get up there ahead of you ? If iming a simple figure 8, double figure 8, or clove hitch is a concern for you, maybe you should consider another sport. Leaving your rope in a knot leaves it stretched out on the outside of the knot and compressed on the inside. Sort of the same effect wearing your socks stretches them out. How well do they fit if you wear them 2 days in a row. How about 3? There are knots to use that don't cinch up and are easier to get apart after being loaded.
@HowNOT2 - why did you use two locking carabiners opposite-and-opposed for the quad rather than just one? Earlier in the video Bobby explained two small D-carabiners can pinch the rope causing premature wear. On a multi-pitch, if you are belaying from above, only one carabiner is attached to the quad anchor (then through the guide-loop on an ATC or similar). So why in sport climbing do we still teach two locking carabiners opposite & opposed? ***note: I fully understand we would need opposite & opposed for non-locking carabiners.
Quick question for whoever sees this, and maybe it's been asked already but I didn't see it. Would these anchors work with static line with the ends connected to make a loop, or is there a better way to make an anchor with it. static is the only thing I have available at the moment but still want to set up when I can.
One question. In the third method why not passing both bottom carabiners through both ropes? That would give even more redundancy. The only reason I can think of is due weight balance wouldn´t be that optimal maybe(?)
Will gravity really be able to unscrew a carabiner downward though? I’d like to see this tested. I feel like rubbing on the rock has more of an effect of gravity on the screw gate carabiner. I’ve seen them unscrew from that, but never gravity.
@@dfjdskf9234j4fisd I tried my best to find the video I saw about this, but it was years ago and I couldn't find it. Short answer, yes, the screwgate can unscrew if you screw "up". I think gravity itself might be very rare, but when you rappel and make vibrations in the rope, together with gravity, the screwgate can unscrew. The video I saw, showed how the vibrations unscrew the carabiner, and when the screwgate hit its stop, it bounced back up locking itself again, hit the stop and unscrewed once more, and it continued up and down like this multpiple times, as long as there was vibration in the rope. Hard to explain, but hope it makes sense. I was shocked it was possible.
It is less likely in a short top roping session, but i have seen it happen. there is a video floating around the rope access forums where wind vibration in a bridge unscrews one in a matter of seconds. I have also seen it happen on improperly tightened quick links.
I’ve never loved method 3 (2 QuickDraws). You only add a tiny bit of gear and time by using the better methods and they are both more secure. They are also more aesthetically pleasing, which matters to me for some strange reason.
To me, an aesthetically pleasing anchor inspires more confidence. That doesn't mean that a beautiful anchor is a super safe and solid one, but it reassures me in a way.
Cosumnes! I used to guide there it the 80s, and back then we used the sliding x with impunity. No stopper knots were expected. Coming back into climbing 30 years later it's great to see some things have changed. So my question about your preferred anchor--does it matter which two strands each of the masterpoint biners are clipped into? or is the understanding that the knots basically make any strand an isolated strand and it doesn't matter whether there is any relationship to the loops that go up to the bolts?
As long as you don't clip all four strands your carabiners (and rope) will have at least one retaining cord in the event one bolt fails. You are trying to prevent the carabiners slipping around the knots if an anchor failed.
Question about the quad anchor. Do the over-hands supposed to be close to the HMS carabiniers like on the video or can be close to the bolts? Does it matter? Having it close to the bolts would make it better for equalising especially where one bolt is higher than the other.
If you’re using the 7mm rope instead of the Dyneema, do you use the same 2 overhand knots then clip each carabiner to one of the 2 strands between the rope? Like identical to the Dyneema, just with rope?
While tying the BFK (or similar) is it a bad idea to clip a carabiner in the knot just to make it easier to untie after being loaded? Not clipping anything into the carabiner and dressing it properly?
Wait can the carabiners be both "opposite and opposed" and "screwed down to not screw up"?? Doesn't either opposite or opposite mean that one is facing down and one is facing up?
Great video! But could you do an instructional video showing the transition from your PAS to rappel. I've found myself in that same setup often and my transition very awkward. Maybe that was why that part was skipped over lol. Maybe it's always awkward. I was hoping to find a better way but I've found it extremely difficult to find any videos on a setup just like that, going from clipped in with my PAS and then onto rappel. Anybody else wanna share their ideas and experience on a good way would also be greatly appreciated. Thanks! 🙂
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Only thing I think you guys left out was when Bobby was flaking the rope he let the ends get all the way down and just had the bight in his one hand. I normally just tie a quick overhand knot about 2 feet below the middle bight to make a loop. I clip that loop to my harness, put the middle bight in the 2 locking Ds, unclip the overhand loop and untie the overhand knot. I've seen people throw the whole rope over, on tall climbs the rope can get heavy and you can easily drop the rope. Just a nice backup and takes an additional 10 seconds.
Yessss... and mooore overhands 👍
Good suggestion to tie rope to top anchor when throwing over… though it sounds like you are tying rope to yourself temporarily. I assume your anchored at this point. But just so readers are clear. don’t tie a rope yourself and throw over edge. only takes one pull or the rope weight itself and your gone. My approach (in top roping) would be to make sure you are safety anchored, flake the rope if possible before clipping to anchor and throwing
I've been the guy getting my friends into climbing. I've set a few dozen top rope anchors. I would have changed a lot had I watched this first. This is great content. Would love to climb with Bobby.
Glad to help. there is lots if other good content on RUclips as well. Both AMGA and REI put out good content on the subject. -Bobby
it sounds like your friends have been lucky - not to have been injured. seek out someone with experience. if you make a mistake as a beginner in most things, you don't kill your friends.
I'd suggest the same as the priveous answerers. Best is to do a course. But for germans i would also recommend the "alpin-lehrplan 5" as it is (one of) the bible(s) for securing technique.
Big contra of the book when you do not do a course is: you will not take everything as important. But fact is: it is so summed up, that moreless every sentence contains info to remember
@@Yijyij1 do you know of an English translation of the book mentioned?
@@Azettler1 Freedom of the Hills
I really love that the German word "Halbmastwurfsicherung" (HMS) is used internationally.
I learned it as "HMS is from a big long German word that means 'works well with a munter hitch'"
@@thecma3 We have even longer words in Germany, this one's pretty short :D.
"Halbmastwurf" is the German word for munter hitch and "Sicherung" is a noun that means loosely translated "to secure something/somebody".
I always thought it stood for human management system
Hold Me Safely 😊
This is seriously the coolest video on RUclips about the top rope anchors! 👏👏👏
love how you are the gear nerd, and that bobby is your gear nerd
Awesome! I am still happy to see that Bobby is doing well again 💪
Thanks for those videos!
You're awesome Bobby! Greetings from Brazil.
Very clear video 😁 been climbing for over 25 years and I see so many mistakes made doing this
Only caveat I would give is when showing the anchor made with the quickdraws. Bobby says the right thing that the carabiners must be opposite and opposed but they are not opposed. Gates should face outwards not inwards. Otherwise, great video! I will definetely use the quad more for the summer season! 🥳
Really nice video!
The third quad really makes sense.
I would love some "this is how you rapell down on your new anchor", since rapelling is quite dangerous if done incorrectly. Rapelling down is both fun and let's you inspect the route.
BOBBYYY back on the rock love this
That video was awesome! gotta share it with the lads. The time lapse at the end is perfect!
Awesome video. Thank you again for explaining why you should place your gear a certain way, plus points for the explanation about force bearing involving placing the HMS and D-Shaped carabiner. And Ryan, love your jokes!
This is such a good video.
I've been climbing for years but I always come back to these as a refresher
We use he second method you showed. Third method you showed with 4 strands seems more secure we will use that in our next climb . Thanks
Everybody always says to "like and subscribe" at the beginning of a video. Although, I will give you props for being unique with your ask at 0:40; saying we can always undo it later if we don't like the video. Innocent until proven guilty. Touché. You gained a sub and a like today.
Most of the time, that is to say on good, solid anchors, I use my anchor quickdraws which have extra long dogbones and locking biners. The biners are also different color so that I always use the same biners on the rope side. Bolts tend to wear the biners a little. Often the anchor bolts are not parallel so my setup is not self-balancing, but they are close enough so that the angle is acceptable. And the height difference between the bolts is short enough so as not to create much of a shockload in case one side fails. The main advantage is conveniance. It's really quick to set up and tear down, no knots to untie. Thoughts?
Looks like CRG. Was there last weekend and the water is super high right now. Someone currently has a high line and tag lines stretched across it.
Appreciated the discussion on different carabiners!
It is. They are right above Candy Corn and Beginners Cracks.
Your channel is freaking amazing
Bobby and Ryan thanks a lot. Awesome video !!! Super ☀️😀
I climb here all the time!!! I feel like this spot has been blessed by your presence XD
Good job Bobbi!
Excellent demo of proper top rope! Newbie here and totally get what your doing to ensure it's safe and secure and redundant :-)
I was out on a multi pitch the other day and did a quick body belay for my bud at the top. He had a mini-panic when he saw what I was doing. Could you do a test on how much force the average person can hold doing a body belay? It was slabby, very easy terrain and I was not worried about him falling, just FYI.
Great idea I hope Ryan makes a video about this.
Any test would be pointless as there is no such thing as the average climber. Safety would depend on weights of both climber and belayer, belayers hand strength, whether or not belayer is wearing gloves, how slippy is the ground belayer is standing on etc. etc.
@@colinandrew8573 Agreed, but I still think it would be fun to watch.
@@colinandrew8573 I think the most important factor is the position of the belayer and if/how the rope is redirected around a tree, rock etc.
We are talking about how to do this test. I was thinking if Ryan could control the 60 lbs weight difference between us I would consider the body belay a success. I can hold him, see barbie vid.
Many climbers have ropes that have been chopped. I use these old rope segments to create top rope anchors. Most of the time, especially at places in the video, we can walk up to the anchor and rig. Often, I have 10 people climbing on the same anchor and having the peace of mind that the anchor is made of the same material as the rope they are climbing with is worth it. A couple years ago, I was climbing at Remillard in the Oakland hills. Fortunately, I had used an old climbing rope section to rig the climb. At the end of the day, I returned to look at the rigging and saw that the rope had been shredded by the rock. The sheath was completely cut away but the core was generally intact. Had I used a dynema sling, someone would have taken a ground fall. If you are climbing the same climb, with a group of friends, I strongly recommend using something beefier than a dynema sling. If it's just you and your buddy and you will switch routes occasionally through the day, such a sling is fine. As Bobby said, the dynema sling is plenty strong when it is NEW.
I decided to reply to your comment because some of the details suggested to me that there are dangerous issues at play here which might injure you or your friends. Most of what I say below is based on speculation, but I have tried to highlight my assumptions/rationale as a starting point for discussion.
On the contrary to what you said in your comment, there’s a good chance the dangerous damage you saw was exacerbated by your choice of material; stretchy rope rubbed the rock more than stiff slings would.
The abrasion you saw was almost certainly due primarily to the cyclic loading of the anchor as folks climbed, fell, climbed, lowered, etc. I’m guessing abrasion wasn’t caused by side to side rubbing, as there aren’t really traverses at Remillard, and I doubt there was a devious kid with a belt sander up top. So, I suspect this “bouncing“ as the main culprit.
With that in mind, I think it’s worth noting that the same forces will cause an anchor made of climbing rope to rub more than an anchor made of slings and A LOT more than an anchor made of Dyneema slings. According to rough numbers from Edelrid (link at the end of my comment), I estimate that for a given force, climbing rope will stretch ~3.3 times as far as a nylon sling would. Using the same method, I estimate climbing rope would stretch over 22.8 times as far as a Dyneema sling would (i’d be happy to talk through the calculations, just ask). in short: a Dyneema sling would rub WAY less than your climbing rope anchor did.
It’s certainly uncomfortable to have your load-bearing, life-trusting strands open to the air, and I understand how the sheath of a rope can be comforting. Indeed, padding the rock and preventing abrasion in the first place is a totally great idea. The floor mats from a car can often be laid over the edge to protect the system, regardless of what anchor material you are using.
Alternatively, I have another theory. Many people trim their ropes specifically BECAUSE they are core shot/worn. You may have simply been using a piece of rope which was already core shot or almost core shot, which was made more obvious by its day of rubbing on rock. The fact that your comment can be read to imply that you are using the cut off ends of ropes given to you by other climbers (rather than segments you have trimmed off of your own ropes) further heightens the possibility that your anchor material was already damaged before the day began. On this note, I want to reiterate the old adage: soft goods can be damaged in ways that leave little sign of the damage. As such, I would strongly encourage you to think twice (or three times) before trusting soft goods whose history you do not know. This is just another reason why I would recommend against using pieces of climbing rope as anchor material.
Regardless, feel free to reply to this comment/DM me, I would love to talk through what systems I prefer and why, and to swap beta generally.
The numbers I have cited here all come from Edelrid, www.edelrid.de/en/knowledge-base/sports/strength-reduction-of-textile-materials-by-knots.php
@Eli Hiss Sorry, your suppositions are wrong. I used my own rope, not rope that other people gave me. Usually I use fat ropes, often 10.5 or even 11 mm static rope. Of course cyclic loading was the cause. Probably 30 people climbed that route. I'm convinced that had dynema been used, the result would have been a failed anchor. The best policy would have been to inspect the anchor several times during the day. As a cave explorer and a rock climber for 51 years, I'm quite aware of rope pads, thank you. The anchor, by the way, was a 3 point, equalized anchor. The 4 climbs rigged that day had anchors that were interconnected in case of a failure. The other climbs would have stopped any failure other than if the rope broke at the edge. If you recall, Remilliard is a volcanic rock, with sharp edges. Any rope or sling, especially dynema could be cut there.
Wow! Thank you for sharing, I find it interesting that beefy static rope displayed that issue, great to learn about. Stay safe, and I hope to see you around the bay
Awesome! Very awesome video guys.
Great video on essential basics!
the intro is like an optical illusion I literally can’t figure out where you are sitting/what’s around you lol
i was wondering why Bobby had a personal anchor. Until I realised they were on top of a cliff
I freaking love Bobby, man! I’m glad he’s doing well now!! And just as glad to hear what he has to teach!!!
Love your show and info share it with everyone I work with
I build communication towers and very useful
Awesome video! Thanks for all the instruction!
Thanks guys!
Funny how I thought I understand everything in this video a few months ago, but now that I‘m reviewing this, I see how much I missed or „just notted to“ without actually understanding it. Thanks for this wonderful resource!
Could you do a break test with a bunch of equally loaded "not for climbing" carabiners?
Question: On the Limited Sliding X could figure 8 knots be used INSTEAD of overhand knots? (Figure 8 is easier to untie afterwards.)
Awesome! You are potentially savings lives with this. Loved the video
Okay. Sittn here and tying an overhand knot. I do an overhandeye and coming from the bottom up with the loose end through the eye. Overhandknot.
The loose end comes from below, against the gravity. Ever tryed to use an underhandknot ?. The loose end goes down the eye . Like screwing down the carabiner.
I love this kilonewcontents coming from your channel. We call it Hausfrauenknoten.
I'm new in moutain climbing, I learn a lot. Thanks ❤️😊
Hey thats my local crag, nice to see its still doing well while Im at school!
I'm certfied in the french rope rescue system GRIMPE. We where tought to use the hms only for situations where there is rope movement in a carbiner, like with a top rope and don't use it for any other situation. Using a HMS in an other part of the system (metal on metal) creates little burs in the carabiner reducing the lifespan of the rope and when having the rope under hight tension moving true a burred carabiner...,well you can imagine what cutting a rope under high tension looks like. We use a single rope for rescue, compared to double rope in other systems. So we need to be 100% shure not to have a failure. So rope and equipemnt management is super duper important. Its probably overkill, but it doesn't hurt to use the HMS only in combination woth soft goods.
Ive personally climbed off a quad made from 1in climbing webbing and 6/7mm-ish cordelette. And in this excellent video, youre building one out of a dyneema sling. Slings are rated at 22kN. Webbing at ~18kN. 6/7mm cordelette at ~7-9kN. After watching your quad breaking videos, it looks like because everything is done on multiple loops, the material's strength always gets multiplied (the sling quad broke at ~40kN, 6mm cord quad broke ~32kN). So my question: is there any general consensus on what material would be best out of the three? And why? Any of the three to avoid? Or is it all just personal preference vs cost (sling being the most expensive material to start with)?
Thank you so much for the detailed info/video!
Nice! I'm just starting climbing with rope and this is really usefull. Thanks :)
Well done gents. When I'm with a large group, TRing easy easy stuff, I use two short slings (30 cm nylon) with 4 locking biners. Super quick, long enough to avoid rock abrasion, and locking is good!
So you basically have two full strength slings, sounds easy, straight forward and bomber.
do you climb the same route every time? you don't want the rope dragging overall corners. you want to minimize dragging that rope over the rock. some places I've taken people top roping do t have anything to anchor to for 30 feet or more.
Loved the accurate remark saying United States, North America.. and not just America.. people should learn haha... Also, great video!
'Murica baby back tuh baek weiners of dem whurld wurrs.
@@roamerreed
WW1 nope, WW2 mostly correct
Love this content!
Man I absolutely love these videos. Thank you guys so much.
Im looking to set up some routes in Asia in Jan and would love a vid on how to set up top rope anchor using Trees and Boulders etc.
Love the vids btw!
Really good Video!!
That is a cool looking rock you guys are playing on!
Thank you so much!! 🙏🏼☺️
While toproping outdoors I also always ask everyone to leave a Quickdraw in place at the last bolt before the anchor (so when leading but can also do the same while lowering down from the top of a route).
Only remove that when cleaning the route so if you have anchor failure, you might take a bigger fall but atleast not to the ground as you're protected by another bolt. Maybe its a useful tip for anyone!
Why not leave ALL the quickdraws in?
It just gets silly.
If you don’t trust the anchor then don’t use it to top rope.
@@colinandrew8573 that's not the point Colin. Why is it recommended to use 2 anchor bolts at the top for lowering? Because of redundancy. How much redundancy is your choice & I prefer 3 points of protection because the top anchors are most frequently used so take in more wear & tear from falls than the 2nd last bolt. Their likelihood of failure is higher than other bolts. But at the end of the day it's your choice. If the 2nd last bolt is not place optimally in relation to the top anchor, then don't use that.
@@AkashMenon1995 I'm with you, the more redundancy the better. If it takes more time but you feel more comfortable it's *always* worth it
Home boy that showed us how to set up different ways to anchor in was a king🫶🏼 thanks for the great video! Definetly “learnt” some things 😅
If you guys ever get into vibration testing, I'd be curious to see the impact of reusable thread locking methods like PTFE tape or VC-3.
Hahaha “troll patrol” great job as always!
“Everyone is down at the bottom of the cliff and some are more injured than others” 😂
There are multiple videos of vibration making the gate twist up instead of down. Vibration is much stronger than gravity. Seems like something you could test!
What about just tape the screw gates ?
Cool video! I learned me something
I'd like to see a break test of overhand vs. double fishermans for creating a loop like that one...
I can't understand why they don't use a double fisherman's instead of that overhand. They alluded to having had good test results with the over hand knot. For pulling a rope down in canyoneering or on a long series of raps, it's a great knot. However, Bobby mentioned that you need a long tail because the knot can unwrap. That knot has been known in the climbing community for unwrapping for years. I don't see any reason to risk that. If someone doesn't tie the overhand tightly, it will increase the odds of it unwrapping. With a double fisherman's you won't have that problem. Possibly the double fisherman's is a tad weaker, but I'd like to see their test results on that. That being said, these guys put a huge effort into their tests and their results need to be considered. As for me and my students, we will stick with the double fisherman's.
I've seen so many people construct a quad and only use two lines instead of all 4. Bobby's way is much better.
His explanation of why not to use a pear biner at the bolts was also interesting. It saves us 1 kN out of 20 something.
I'm just new to climbing and what I did for top rope anchors was buy 2 steel screw locking carabiners for the wall side, two dogbones, and two aluminum screw lock carabiners with steel inserts for rope side to avoid wear. It seems this is completely redundnant and has the advatages of the sling style you describe without needing knots, but also has the advantage of the dogbone keeping the rope side from twisting so the carabiners will always stay opposite no matter how they are shaken or moved.
It seems like the two drawbacks you mentioned, angle and not locking, are both solved by just using longer dog bones and using screwlock carabiners. Am I wrong there?
how do you get your gear down from the top after you are done top roping?
In Germany I learned a method similar to the 4th one of this video. If the two bolts are not connected with a chain, you clip the rope into the lower bolt with two opposing quickdraws. Then you use a longer single quickdraw to connect the upper bolt with the rope, there should be no load on that quickdraw.
What we usually do is similar. On the lower bolt we either place a carabiner directly (if the orientation of the bolt is correct for that), or a custom made quickdraw with locking carabiners on either side. On the other bolt we use either a quickdraw with two locking carabiners, or a sling with a locking carabiner in a way that it doesn't carry any load.
I simply ordered a dogbone and two locking carabiners to make a locking quickdraw. I tend to use that in tandem with a standard quickdraw, and also make them opposite and opposed. Usually all of the weight is going through one, but when you're sport climbing, all your whippers are on one bolt, so I think it's reasonable to top rope like that, and if it fails, you'll get caught by the other draw, and the fall is a lot shorter distance than a sport climbing whipper
Hi thank you very much for this video.
With the 3rd method, why don't you add a twist on each double strand where you clip the carabiners?
Cause even with all the redundancies, if one anchor fails, the carabiners are free?
Thank you
Great content as always! Keep it up!
I top rope often and use a equalette made from static line and steel biners...bomber, and the steel biners keeps the rope clean...I use tied 1 inch tubular webbing to extend anchors and the self adjusting nature of the equalette makes set up super easy....
good job. the only thing i dislike is the missing of knots in the ends of the rope for reppaling. just a good habit in my opinion.
Keep the good content comming
What rappeling? This area and many other TR areas have easy walk off don't require rappelling. Always consider tieing knots if you are actually rappeling.
@@HowNOT2 ahh.. i misunderstood that part with the midle of the rope... did you realy walk down at that point? ;-)
I do walk down there bc it is faster than getting on and off rap. Raps are a bit challenging there as it awkward to get below the anchor. Definitely not the case everywhere tho.
rapping is more dangerous and harder on your rope. wall off is usually the safest. when rapping, you're 100% dependent on your equipment
I like the idea of a double sliding x for solo top roping (at least from what I've seen), but what's with the knots in the sling? I thought that putting knots in dyneema significantly weakens the Kn it can withstand. Thoughts?
I’ve just bought some DMM Dyneema slings and I’m sure the guidance they come with tells you not to tie them.
From what i know.. a knot in a dyneema sling lowers the kn strength around 75% ! Knots in dyneema also start to Wander already at 2 kn of intake. Dyneema is not Made for knots. This is Why a knotted cordellette made of dyneema shouldn't be used as a sling that is supposed to take Heavy intake. If the knot slips it can end badly. There is a special slingknot That is recommended to tie the End of a nylon sling. To Use it around a tree of something. This knot is the only knot know as 100% Safe Not to open.
17:38 - HowNOT2 knows, but for others that do not, it's good to tie some type of barrel/stopper knot when rappelling at the end of the rope. I clip a bite of rope near the middle-point to the anchor before tossing it down as to not drop it. I'm clumsy like that. lol.
Same thing I noticed. Everything in the video is perfect but for rappelling you do need to put stopper knots in the two ends as way too much people have died not doing that.
I feel like they show a lot of dangerous stuff like that in their videos. Lack of end knot is *the* most common cause of outdoor climbing injury.
@@Mike-oz4cv I don't feel like they're showing a lot of dangerous stuff that they shouldn't. They're doing a great job in educating people and letting them learn from there mistakes. No one is perfect and so no video is perfect. We can help them in this way.
@@Skydiverugby I think they focus too much on unimportant stuff while neglecting the important things. Rappelling without end knots is inexcusable.
@@Skydiverugby you don't need knots if you know your rope reaches the bottom. Also,knots can get lodged in cracks and be irretrievable if not just nasty to get out, or put you in a situation mid-rappel where you get stuck.
Nice view of Consumnes Gorge!
Great video! With the 240cm sling anchor, when you put the 2 carabiners on 2 strands each, is there a right and wrong combination of strands or is it ok to just randomly select two for each carabiner?
loved the video! To save time, I will often pre-tie the end of my ropes to biners so I can just clip in to my equalized anchor at the mountain. Am I losing strength or lifespan on my ropes if I leave them tied for long periods of time? Thanks guys! :)
You pre- tie the end of your rope so you can just clip on to your equalized anchor? That means sense at all. If you've git the end ofyour rope with a knot in the end,, YOU'RE NOT TOO ROPING!! In top roping, the rope should be TIED TO YOUR HARNESS! The other end of the rope is down with your belayer. If you're leading, how did that nice equalized anchor get up there ahead of you ?
If iming a simple figure 8, double figure 8, or clove hitch is a concern for you, maybe you should consider another sport. Leaving your rope in a knot leaves it stretched out on the outside of the knot and compressed on the inside. Sort of the same effect wearing your socks stretches them out. How well do they fit if you wear them 2 days in a row. How about 3? There are knots to use that don't cinch up and are easier to get apart after being loaded.
@HowNOT2 - why did you use two locking carabiners opposite-and-opposed for the quad rather than just one? Earlier in the video Bobby explained two small D-carabiners can pinch the rope causing premature wear. On a multi-pitch, if you are belaying from above, only one carabiner is attached to the quad anchor (then through the guide-loop on an ATC or similar). So why in sport climbing do we still teach two locking carabiners opposite & opposed?
***note: I fully understand we would need opposite & opposed for non-locking carabiners.
Quick question for whoever sees this, and maybe it's been asked already but I didn't see it. Would these anchors work with static line with the ends connected to make a loop, or is there a better way to make an anchor with it. static is the only thing I have available at the moment but still want to set up when I can.
Great Video!
Can you share the model of the blue pants, please?
One question. In the third method why not passing both bottom carabiners through both ropes? That would give even more redundancy.
The only reason I can think of is due weight balance wouldn´t be that optimal maybe(?)
"Screw down so you dont screw up" - a nice phrase for remembering orientation of carabiners (mostly when teaching new climbers how not to anchor)
Will gravity really be able to unscrew a carabiner downward though? I’d like to see this tested. I feel like rubbing on the rock has more of an effect of gravity on the screw gate carabiner. I’ve seen them unscrew from that, but never gravity.
@@dfjdskf9234j4fisd I tried my best to find the video I saw about this, but it was years ago and I couldn't find it. Short answer, yes, the screwgate can unscrew if you screw "up". I think gravity itself might be very rare, but when you rappel and make vibrations in the rope, together with gravity, the screwgate can unscrew. The video I saw, showed how the vibrations unscrew the carabiner, and when the screwgate hit its stop, it bounced back up locking itself again, hit the stop and unscrewed once more, and it continued up and down like this multpiple times, as long as there was vibration in the rope. Hard to explain, but hope it makes sense. I was shocked it was possible.
It is less likely in a short top roping session, but i have seen it happen. there is a video floating around the rope access forums where wind vibration in a bridge unscrews one in a matter of seconds. I have also seen it happen on improperly tightened quick links.
Thanks!
Thank you for the $toke!
This is good for the algorithm ...
I love this guy
I’ve never loved method 3 (2 QuickDraws). You only add a tiny bit of gear and time by using the better methods and they are both more secure. They are also more aesthetically pleasing, which matters to me for some strange reason.
To me, an aesthetically pleasing anchor inspires more confidence. That doesn't mean that a beautiful anchor is a super safe and solid one, but it reassures me in a way.
Cosumnes! I used to guide there it the 80s, and back then we used the sliding x with impunity. No stopper knots were expected. Coming back into climbing 30 years later it's great to see some things have changed. So my question about your preferred anchor--does it matter which two strands each of the masterpoint biners are clipped into? or is the understanding that the knots basically make any strand an isolated strand and it doesn't matter whether there is any relationship to the loops that go up to the bolts?
As long as you don't clip all four strands your carabiners (and rope) will have at least one retaining cord in the event one bolt fails. You are trying to prevent the carabiners slipping around the knots if an anchor failed.
I noticed this within a few seconds of seeing the far wall behind them. Love the dirty climbing over there! Not Haven’t been there in about 20 years.
How long of a dyneema sling is that? trying to figure out how long a sling or cordilette I'll need to set up an anchor :)
240 cm sling. I usually use 6 or 8 meters of cord.
Question about the quad anchor. Do the over-hands supposed to be close to the HMS carabiniers like on the video or can be close to the bolts? Does it matter? Having it close to the bolts would make it better for equalising especially where one bolt is higher than the other.
Do trad anchors next !
Do the carabiners attached to the anchors not need to be opposite and opposed?
If you’re using the 7mm rope instead of the Dyneema, do you use the same 2 overhand knots then clip each carabiner to one of the 2 strands between the rope? Like identical to the Dyneema, just with rope?
correct
Thanks
Great video, thanks guys! I wish you would do more trad rigging techniques. Placing gear, setting up belay anchors etc.
Those videos are in the works. Stay tuned.
@@HowNOT2 Are such videos still in the works?
While tying the BFK (or similar) is it a bad idea to clip a carabiner in the knot just to make it easier to untie after being loaded? Not clipping anything into the carabiner and dressing it properly?
Quad Anchor are 2x 120 cm Dyneemas ?
Another great episode we'll done Bobby .. when we gonna get to see your cerra gordo trip ?
Already scheduled for next Wednesday -Bobby
does it matter how tidy the knots are in your sling? i always hate it when they get all twisted
Can a pulley be used at the top ? Or the 2 oposing carabiners are better ?
I need "screw down so you don't screw up" on a Tshirt
Thanks!
So you dont necessarily need the bolt biners opposite and opposed? I guess it depends which direction the route is going
Wait can the carabiners be both "opposite and opposed" and "screwed down to not screw up"?? Doesn't either opposite or opposite mean that one is facing down and one is facing up?
Great video! But could you do an instructional video showing the transition from your PAS to rappel. I've found myself in that same setup often and my transition very awkward. Maybe that was why that part was skipped over lol. Maybe it's always awkward. I was hoping to find a better way but I've found it extremely difficult to find any videos on a setup just like that, going from clipped in with my PAS and then onto rappel. Anybody else wanna share their ideas and experience on a good way would also be greatly appreciated. Thanks! 🙂