I would absolutely love for you to test some of these anchors by sticking a load cell on each leg if that's possible (or at least a couple of legs). The importance of load balancing has become less and less after seeing some tests and I so, in the UK at least, we're starting to be taught that extension and redundancy are the most important factors and although it's good to try to get all pieces sharing to some extent, the likelihood of achieving this is low, . It would also be tempting to see the difference between nylon and dyneema slings as with nylon, the extension of one leg would ensure that the other legs started to at least play a role in taking the load whereas with dyneema, the lack of stretch means that the leg that is 'looser' will remain disengaged. As far as I know, there haven't been many good tests of this.
When I first started painting we did a house exterior and I had to climb the roof and they secured me with a 100 ft extension cord. Well when I was done we had a 107ft cord .
Always at the knot ! I have sewn sails and my own climbing software most all my life. I have worked in parachute repair shops as well... it is amazing what a cpl bar tacks can withstand ! Failure is 80% of the time at a knot the other 20% at the turning of an edge. Stage hand riggers use the term 'D to D' ratio, diameter of line to diameter of turning point. Big consideration. as well :)
I feel the sliding V going to your rigging plate allows changes in the 3 anchor positions, which is also contributing to equalizing the load which is skewing the results a bit. Another way of pointing this out is that the rigging plate can pivot and any pivoting action of the plate causes one anchor point to move closer to the load and the opposite to move away from the load, where the test should be 3 unmovable anchor points. This is most noticeable during the un-equalized test around the 6 minute point.
Thank God you put this video out. I have been looking for proper ways to equalize my one point anchors. Now I'm dialed and ready! Greetings from Placerville.
Found your site looking for break strength tests on knots. Enjoy the heck out of the different rabbit holes the channel has headed down. In forestry/tree work rigging we can create some very strong loads, esp with mechanical assist using machines. Always learning. And your test rigs show some really cool stuff
I doubt this is any more versatile than using standard slings. Places like Joshua Tree I would find this hard to use because of the random anchor placements. Joshua Tree tip: bring a 30m static rope as a anchor sling, trust me you will want it.
My local climbing area (Devils lake, WI) has similar ethics to JTree with anchor building. I took an anchor building course there and they used static rope in every one of those anchors to sling trees and boulders, so I can definitely see how that would be helpful
Certainly, your methods will change depending on location. I don't believe there's a single method that works 100% of the time anywhere you go, atleast anything besides the most basic of basics
An excellent examination of the subject. I think this is one of the best resources anywhere for knowledge around the topic of rigging. Love this channel!
My go-to was a cordolette made from 7mm nylon tied in a big loop. 3-points with a figure 8 similar to what's shown on the video, except I had 2 strands going to each bolt. I think I learned it from one of John Long's books. I'm not dead.
I love this format of video. I feel like you and I have a similar type of brain and I can appreciate the curiosity and spontaneity and the need to share with other gear junkies and gear nerds.
I have been using a shock absorber to protect my belay’s for 15 years now. I place them as dummy runner or on the high point of the anchor. Both on ice and rock anchors . They are old fixe dynema S-A but I tested 2 recently and those worked well 😅. I say yes to protect the belay with shock absorbers they work!
My favorite channel hands down. Such great information coupled with wit and humor. Great job as always sir. Please keep up the good work. I have learned a lot from you.
This is some of my favorite content. (I don't even climb - anymore, not that I ever seriously did), I just like seeing things break for some reason lol.
Considering that a grown-up person with 85kg will produce a force of 833,85N in a complete free fall, this seems super secure. Thanks for doing the practical part in testing. \m/
I really liked the third test. even thought only one anchor port was loaded initially, before the failure the load was shared by all 3 points. Anyone who has watched even one of your vids all the way through sees that webbing stretches quite a bit before it fails. It would be nice to see a two anchor two sling test with the lengths uneven. knots = weak!
I'm not even sure how I ended up on your channel. This is probably the 5th video I watched from you. I like every single one! I'm not into climbing or anything like that really. But I enjoy every bit of information that you put into your videos. Great content. Thank you.
Part of the reason why you saw what you saw with the knot tied with uneven lengths was that the attachment point shifted so that the load was more evenly distributed than what it would've been if the sling was attached to a rock that wouldn't shift.
In the UK we often build our anchors using excess rope instead of slings. I'd be curious to see the differences between in-reach and out of reach anchors, as well as how the number or anchor points/clove hitches affects the whole system's strength. Is this something you've already covered?
Would love to see some anchors built out of 7mm static accessory cord as well. On the drop tower and in here. Also for the sake of science, it would have been great to have a new sling to compare with the old retired slings as a controlled variable.
This was amazing. Been watching you for awhile. Thank you for your content. Rope access and rescue here, truelly clears questions that pop up in my mind all the time.
Super fun video! Love this simple quick style of video. Lots of good information and it’s fun to see things that surprise you by breaking lower or higher than you think.
Always fascinating to watch pull tests and see the results. Definitely surprising to see the two-point pre-EQ knotted anchors fail lower than the single-point sling. Dynema vs nylon, age, wear/use/bending (knots) are all contributing factors, but this was still surprising. Thanks!
PS - IMHO (accent on the O), a BFK (or BHK) is a particular bight- or mid-line-knot made by tying an overhand knot with four strands of material (usually rope). It is not a two strand figure eight. Minor point, but something that could be confusing and important when learning or teaching or talking about knots.
The Petzl Asorb family is a nice piece or Petzl Absorbica I International Lanyard would be a good personal one if you're not expecting a 2 person load likely from a rescue.
I've used some of these video to help rookies on job sites when securing heavy loads. Not this style explicitly but, really appreciate these videos and information! Shout out to betaclimbers as well for E.R.N.E.S.T. Acronym.
Maybe a stupid question: here it seems the anchor plate + white dyneema shackles would also contribute to the equalization. What would you expect to be different if the plate could not rotate side to side?
I've read that you should not tie a knot in dyneema anchor slings. Just leave the loops free at the master point. That will eliminate the weak point of the knot and permit automatic adjustment to match the direction of load.
You should measure the HEAT created in the various knots, during break tests. I am a sailor, using many knots, but new to Amsteel and Dynema. Prior boat owner, tied many knots in the Dynema, that have held a long time!
Yo! I've seen some lead belayers in the gym using the Edelrid Ohm, seems like it does work and helps with the older ladies who are still belaying. I wonder if it could help with what you mentioned at the end of the video with larger fall factors and screamers... Just searched up some videos about it and there is like two.
The ohm doesn't decrease force on the first piece / bolt of the next pitch, and you are generally not supposed to fall directly on it. It reduces the force that the belayer sees during a lead fall by sharing some of that upward force with the first bolt / piece assuming the leader is falling on at least the 2nd bolt / piece of the pitch (or higher). Usually this causes harder catches as the belayer is displaced less, so the force on the top piece might actually be higher because the climber decelerates faster. This is safer for the belayer (less slamming into the wall) but not in the same category of techniques as using a screamer on your anchor or first piece. A better solution is to introduce more rope by lower the belayer as far as reasonable below the anchor before the climber starts the next pitch. Even 3-5ft extra makes a huge difference if there is only 5ft of rope in the system.
Quite an interesting result.I've been using "webolettes" for years (the term is being used generically) as it seems to be a very sensible, light, low bulk system for anchor building. @0 KN is super good enough, but I always figured they were WAY stronger than that. I did wonder if a simple overhand might give a different result vs the figure 8. Thanks for this deep dive.
I will explore that more for sure, from the tests i've done over the years, BFKs didn't have any difference with overhand vs 8 for strength but an 8 is easier to untie.
Have you tested straight vs knotted? If not, it would be worth getting a handful of slings / straps and testing.. Even with the theory of half for the knot and double for 2 runs per leg, I'm willing to bet the knotted will be significantly weaker.
Overview lesson: two independent dyneema slings with no knots is far stronger than any sort of giant, kludged knotted runner, despite its appearance as more robust or redundant, because the weak spot is going to always be in the knot. If you want to shorten or semi-equalize the system, just running the slings doubled, or a second time around a biner, is going to preserve most of the strength, whereas any knot is going to greatly reduce it. The persistence of advocating a "guide approved" quad, or any knotted arrangement, is just bad advice, perpetuated maybe only because most real world loads are far below the potential limit of a worst case (ff2 shock) scenario; just because most of the time people get away with something, does not translate to meaning that it is acceptable over the range of worst case situations. Infrequent as they may be, the rare catastrophic failure event does occur, and realizing that we cannot ever know in advance which day, which alignment of setups, is going to be below the threshold for survival, it behooves us to just always plan as if that day is every day. We may not ever experience the worst, but over time someone, somewhere will.
I don't climb, but I do a lot of rigging and find these tests interesting. When we pull shoring the 2 way at the single shackle point gets hot enough to melt the grease out of the wire is interesting how much heat is generated at the knot
Ryan can you do another slacksnap update? I see you’ve put a surface over the aluminum trough and are you now using that space for the hydraulics maybe? I’d love to see how you rigged it with the redirect and both pistons.
Our big energy absorber caribiners are only 21kn. We have a philosophy, anything over 20kn is strong enough. My last failed anchor was because the rock broke. Energy absorber refers to friction energy. The size provides a large thermal mass.
I thought for a second you were joking with the "perfectly equalized anchor" at 2:26, but then realized you meant it with adequate length of sling going to each bolt. As is on vid there's literally only one bolt loaded. But finally got the point after thinking about it :D
Hello, thank you for your very informative video. Have you already carried out the same tests on relays with "South Tyrolean stand" lark heads? the Lacrux site has shown tests but not in video would be interested to see how the knot slides. THANKS
Would love to see the test done at 6:00 done on the drop tower! A non equalized anchor/bfk. Would be cool to see if the first 2 legs breaking first would be enough to absorb some force of the fall and save the last leg. I get that it might not be the most useful test, since you’d need a big mass, maybe with static rope in a F2 fall to generate enough force to actually break it, but it would still be cool 😂 or maybe using thinner cordellete, like 5mm or something instead of a dyneema runner.
If your anchor is marginal, and you want to have maximum force absorption, then, yes, maybe using the rope as an anchor can be good. Hopefully most of the time you’re not in that position.
@@xtremdave True, but it's way more bulkier to carry a rope loop rather than a 120cm dyneema sling. You're talking about top-rope anchors or multi-pitch?
First off, thank you for generating such great content! I get to geek out about science and climbing. Now, the point ... There are some things to consider after watching most of tests that you did. First, the Dyneema (ultra high density or molecular weight polyethylene or UHMW PE as plastics nerds might say) tended to break around the knot. I would suspect that is due to the high friction produced as the webbing slid against the knot as the knot tightened up; that hypothesis is supported by the little Dyneema sling that broke and you noted the warm, rough, kind of melted break point. UHMWPE has a relatively low melting temperature compared to nylon, but I think that almost all of your knotted tests in this and many of your other videos have failed around the knot. The friction force * distance the webbing slides turns into heat, which softens the webbing and creates a weak spot that breaks. Though kind of freaky, but the breaking forces were still pretty large. As you said at the end, this effect that can minimized by shock absorbing hardware. The other detail to consider is to inspect your gear by feeling whether the webbing is still supple. If it is not, especially after a climb, then there could be melt points in the fiber that have fused adjacent fibers together. This can be in both Dyneema and nylon.
So, you talk about factor 1 falls etc, which I think I understand, vaguely (I probably have found the video explaining it). This is more of an arborist concept, but I would love to see a drop test video looking at the shock loading of DRT vs SRT. The way I understand it, an SRT set up would always have a length of line up to the anchor/redirect, so say going up 20 feet at the ground you would have 40' of line and at the top you would have 20' while in DRT yes at the bottom you would have 40' of line but at the top you would have 0' of line.
If you fall 10 feet with 10 feet of rope in the system its going to be way higher than falling 10 feet on the first pitch of a route most of the way up with 120 feet in the system, which would barely be 3kn on your anchor. DRT would have more rope in the system so it in theory should help but if the rope is really static, it mostly doesn't matter, it all hurts at that point.
Get your redundancy by using multiple pieces, not by tying knots in one length. Knots are terribly effective stress risers. Without the knot, it would be self-equalizing and you'd be using all four strands more evenly, even as the climber changed direction slightly. Your 27.75kN test result makes sense because it didn't have the knots.
im doin' more professional climbing and for me fall protection with shock absorber is natural. But yeah we have that problem whit the extending shockabsorber but my reasoning is that the harnes hopefully will at least break the fall and i might get a bruce instead of a broken bone, and the harses will hopefully help orient me so its my legs that will take the blow and not my head or back
I would like to see more tests of the BFK with dyneema slings. I see this done often and I think many people believe it is much stronger than it actually is.
Years back I used screamer, but I haven't really added it to mt kit as I've picked climbing back up because I kinda thought maybe I was just overkilling safety back in the day - now I to am wondering.
Could you make a video about the momentary forces vs the constant pull slack snap. I assume slack lining and some other sports may have higher consistent forces. Where as climbing is mostly about small constant force and potentially large momentary force. Maybe you already have and I missed it. I know you have the drop test which shows real world shock forces better. Maybe a deep dive on real world forces from a sciency/physics point of view? And how you can interpolate the data from the slack snap into a real worlld scenario. I may be over comlicating things... Either way, thanks for the content.
We have several videos of real forces in climbing falls in the gym, factor 1 falls and factor 2 on the drop tower, rope swing, highline and even rappeling forces in all sorts of content already. I’m working on a way to put this together in a “Bolting Bible” a-z content so you can just scroll through 1 blog and see it all summarized and chase the rabbit of your choosing.
jw... how much kN is a typical fall? How much of a range is it? I can't imagine me, a 70kg dude, falling and causing a 21kN force. I can imagine multiple people in a chain falling and having a really bad day and hitting those numbers but I imagine/experience, especially with all the redundancies, that you won't really have a catastrophic failure. I guess what I'm asking is: are these tests ~really~ comparable to real life situations?
Now would you please test three clove hitches with no slack in between, using the climbing rope please ? I have never been convinced that all that (cordellette) 'dweebery' is worth the time. Test three cloves horizontal and then three vertical (drawing slack out from between) using the climbing rope. On the vertical alignment test I would like to see three mid sized cams a foot above the next, connected with clove hitches on the climbing rope and no slack between cloves to where if you jiggle the line below lowest cam all three respond. ?
So im a rigger not a climber but even tho the sling broke at auch higher load than it is needed at, it seems weird that you tied the fig8 knot in the sling.. id like to see the same test without the knot and the crab just joining 3 or even 2, without the knot they can move and equalise! Although if one log breaks you would obviously fall.. but it did break at the knot evertime...
This sort of reminds me of those giant spools of nylon cord at home depot. Rather than hunt down an employee to cut the thing, you just wrap it around your hand and use the nylon to cut the nylon. I think a similar things happening here. As the tension increases, the rope is cutting itself. I wonder if it would be feasible for these anchor ropes to be double sheathed. You have your normal sheathed core, and then a significantly weaker outer sheathing. In theory, it should make it so that as it tightens, it cuts away the outer sheathing, revealing the much stronger sheathing, which shouldn't be cut by the knot.
So how would I use a screamer for protection when falling? Tied between the rope and my harness? I think all PAS should be made of dynamic rope. On the plus side, us meatbags, when we hit that rope we don't hit it all at once like a weight, our mushy liquids and limbs are fairly dynamic, as though we are built to fall at the end of a rope. And when you said use two slings, well now it's not equalized is it.
You clip it to the sketchy gear in place of a runner. If you fall, it dramatically reduces peak force by ripping (and extending). I’ve used them before, typically on micro nuts and heads when aiding. they do work. Typically their activation force is too high to be as useful on your end, and I’m not sure I’d trust them (or they’d be worth the hassle). The ones I used wouldn’t deploy if you had to jug on them, for instance. They get pretty bulky, and can break in extreme situations.
Appreciate the actual testing, but your title said 'not anchors are bomber', true, but every anchor you tested _was bomber_ , none failed at loads generated in even typical factor 2. BTW - your advice was spot on, I don't know why people seem obsessed with tying knots in slings, thinking it is somehow better than the lazy way, when the lazy way is demonstrably better: don't tie knots in slings, just use 2 slings.
At 8:33, is the crackling sound the sound of single filaments breaking one after another? This is something I would indeed expect for an older work-out fabric in contrast to a brand new one where all the filaments are still kind of aligned and equally strong. I think I've seen a video where a guy from Edelrid stated that this is what you can actually hear when break-testing older stuff.
I'd like to see the webollete anchor with no knot. It would self equalize regardless of direction, and wouldn't have the issue of losing half its strength from the knot. I suspect you'd get a lot more out of it.
You should be aware that a webolette rigged as you used it puts roughly twice the load on the piece with the two strands as compared to the pieces with one stand. This is because the double strand is twice as stiff. As the strands stretch the load goes to the double. Try it. Super good enough? Maybe for bolts, but it is worth knowing this for trad anchors and is why I stuck with a spectra cordelette.
Maybe this is a stupid question…but the knot being the failure point makes sense to me. Let’s say all three anchors are equally loaded. The thing that WONT be equal is the knot because it is going to cinch generating heat in a localized spot. That heat difference is what causes the line to fail at that localized point. Wouldn’t a failure at any other point be indicative of a defect?
The screamers sound like interesting content. Do they make reusable ones or are they all single use? Seems like a static rope would be easier to ascend and descend in say the arborist profession or applications were you are actively using the rope.Maybe a screamer and static line as opposed to dynamic?
Talking about the screamers or shock absorbers.. This might sound nuts but theoretically could you use a daisy chainin place of a shock absorber in a way so the stitching would blow one by one and slow you down enough to catch you by the time it turns into a normal sling..? Or am I way off lol
How strong do you think an anchor should be to satisfy the "Strong" requirement in S.E.R.E.N.E.?
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20 kN generally
I would absolutely love for you to test some of these anchors by sticking a load cell on each leg if that's possible (or at least a couple of legs). The importance of load balancing has become less and less after seeing some tests and I so, in the UK at least, we're starting to be taught that extension and redundancy are the most important factors and although it's good to try to get all pieces sharing to some extent, the likelihood of achieving this is low, .
It would also be tempting to see the difference between nylon and dyneema slings as with nylon, the extension of one leg would ensure that the other legs started to at least play a role in taking the load whereas with dyneema, the lack of stretch means that the leg that is 'looser' will remain disengaged. As far as I know, there haven't been many good tests of this.
As strong as your best pice and as weak as you worst 😂
250 KN sounds about right to me.
enough
When I first started painting we did a house exterior and I had to climb the roof and they secured me with a 100 ft extension cord. Well when I was done we had a 107ft cord .
be glad they didn't try to convince you to use a tape measure
Interesting that with all of these slings that none of the stitching failed, it was almost always at the knot. Great content!
Always at the knot ! I have sewn sails and my own climbing software most all my life. I have worked in parachute repair shops as well... it is amazing what a cpl bar tacks can withstand ! Failure is 80% of the time at a knot the other 20% at the turning of an edge. Stage hand riggers use the term 'D to D' ratio, diameter of line to diameter of turning point. Big consideration. as well :)
Yeah and the first knot didn't seem dressed as well as the second. I wonder if this is why it held 5+ more KN
I feel the sliding V going to your rigging plate allows changes in the 3 anchor positions, which is also contributing to equalizing the load which is skewing the results a bit. Another way of pointing this out is that the rigging plate can pivot and any pivoting action of the plate causes one anchor point to move closer to the load and the opposite to move away from the load, where the test should be 3 unmovable anchor points. This is most noticeable during the un-equalized test around the 6 minute point.
Thank God you put this video out. I have been looking for proper ways to equalize my one point anchors.
Now I'm dialed and ready!
Greetings from Placerville.
Found your site looking for break strength tests on knots. Enjoy the heck out of the different rabbit holes the channel has headed down. In forestry/tree work rigging we can create some very strong loads, esp with mechanical assist using machines. Always learning. And your test rigs show some really cool stuff
I doubt this is any more versatile than using standard slings. Places like Joshua Tree I would find this hard to use because of the random anchor placements. Joshua Tree tip: bring a 30m static rope as a anchor sling, trust me you will want it.
My local climbing area (Devils lake, WI) has similar ethics to JTree with anchor building. I took an anchor building course there and they used static rope in every one of those anchors to sling trees and boulders, so I can definitely see how that would be helpful
@@strctlykilz precisely my friend
Unless you guiding, that’s not really necessary.
Certainly, your methods will change depending on location. I don't believe there's a single method that works 100% of the time anywhere you go, atleast anything besides the most basic of basics
30 meters?? That's a lot
ur like "thats the E in Serene.... equalized" but half the letters in there are e
That tells you how important equalization is!
An excellent examination of the subject. I think this is one of the best resources anywhere for knowledge around the topic of rigging. Love this channel!
My go-to was a cordolette made from 7mm nylon tied in a big loop. 3-points with a figure 8 similar to what's shown on the video, except I had 2 strands going to each bolt. I think I learned it from one of John Long's books. I'm not dead.
Thats last anchor was really impressive. Thanks
It would be interesting to put 3 more load cells in each leg of the anchor to see how equalized they actually are. 7:06
I love this format of video. I feel like you and I have a similar type of brain and I can appreciate the curiosity and spontaneity and the need to share with other gear junkies and gear nerds.
Great video! Please go on.
I will never do such test so videos like this are very important to understand how your climbing stuff is actually working.
I have been using a shock absorber to protect my belay’s for 15 years now. I place them as dummy runner or on the high point of the anchor. Both on ice and rock anchors . They are old fixe dynema S-A but I tested 2 recently and those worked well 😅. I say yes to protect the belay with shock absorbers they work!
My favorite channel hands down. Such great information coupled with wit and humor. Great job as always sir. Please keep up the good work. I have learned a lot from you.
I actually retired those exact slings from BD last year when I got back into climbing and learned about the five years rule of thumb for softgoods.
It's so nice to arrive home and get to see another video of yours, I really love the content!
Kind regards from Chile.
This is some of my favorite content. (I don't even climb - anymore, not that I ever seriously did), I just like seeing things break for some reason lol.
Considering that a grown-up person with 85kg will produce a force of 833,85N in a complete free fall, this seems super secure. Thanks for doing the practical part in testing. \m/
I'm not into climbing at all but highly interested in this video.
there's no doubt your videos have made people think twice about a setup, reworked it and lived because of it.
I really liked the third test. even thought only one anchor port was loaded initially, before the failure the load was shared by all 3 points. Anyone who has watched even one of your vids all the way through sees that webbing stretches quite a bit before it fails. It would be nice to see a two anchor two sling test with the lengths uneven. knots = weak!
I'm not even sure how I ended up on your channel. This is probably the 5th video I watched from you. I like every single one! I'm not into climbing or anything like that really. But I enjoy every bit of information that you put into your videos. Great content. Thank you.
I really enjoyed the editing and overall feel of this video.
Part of the reason why you saw what you saw with the knot tied with uneven lengths was that the attachment point shifted so that the load was more evenly distributed than what it would've been if the sling was attached to a rock that wouldn't shift.
Very very interesting!! I would love to be able to test all my old mothballed old gear. Some of the crabs are 45 years plus!
In the UK we often build our anchors using excess rope instead of slings. I'd be curious to see the differences between in-reach and out of reach anchors, as well as how the number or anchor points/clove hitches affects the whole system's strength.
Is this something you've already covered?
Would love to see some anchors built out of 7mm static accessory cord as well. On the drop tower and in here. Also for the sake of science, it would have been great to have a new sling to compare with the old retired slings as a controlled variable.
Look up the dmm drop tower tests
This was amazing. Been watching you for awhile. Thank you for your content. Rope access and rescue here, truelly clears questions that pop up in my mind all the time.
Super fun video! Love this simple quick style of video. Lots of good information and it’s fun to see things that surprise you by breaking lower or higher than you think.
This makes me rethink the way I build anchors. I don't know which anchor setup to trust now
Always fascinating to watch pull tests and see the results. Definitely surprising to see the two-point pre-EQ knotted anchors fail lower than the single-point sling. Dynema vs nylon, age, wear/use/bending (knots) are all contributing factors, but this was still surprising. Thanks!
PS - IMHO (accent on the O), a BFK (or BHK) is a particular bight- or mid-line-knot made by tying an overhand knot with four strands of material (usually rope). It is not a two strand figure eight. Minor point, but something that could be confusing and important when learning or teaching or talking about knots.
The Petzl Asorb family is a nice piece or Petzl Absorbica I International Lanyard would be a good personal one if you're not expecting a 2 person load likely from a rescue.
fantastic demo- I would definitely like to see, and hear, what you do with some Tear Aways !!!
I love how instead of writing or drawing on the whiteboard, you just Velcro gear to it lol!
I've used some of these video to help rookies on job sites when securing heavy loads. Not this style explicitly but, really appreciate these videos and information! Shout out to betaclimbers as well for E.R.N.E.S.T. Acronym.
I liked that Ryan summed up about 10 of his video experiments in one go.
That was interesting even with older slings with knot in it was what it is rated for
I like this content. I feel I just soak up information watching all of these its great.
Maybe a stupid question: here it seems the anchor plate + white dyneema shackles would also contribute to the equalization. What would you expect to be different if the plate could not rotate side to side?
Yea, i realize that now but they still broke in succession but I think stretch played a role in it.
I've read that you should not tie a knot in dyneema anchor slings. Just leave the loops free at the master point. That will eliminate the weak point of the knot and permit automatic adjustment to match the direction of load.
You should measure the HEAT created in the various knots, during break tests. I am a sailor, using many knots, but new to Amsteel and Dynema. Prior boat owner, tied many knots in the Dynema, that have held a long time!
Yo! I've seen some lead belayers in the gym using the Edelrid Ohm, seems like it does work and helps with the older ladies who are still belaying. I wonder if it could help with what you mentioned at the end of the video with larger fall factors and screamers...
Just searched up some videos about it and there is like two.
The ohm doesn't decrease force on the first piece / bolt of the next pitch, and you are generally not supposed to fall directly on it. It reduces the force that the belayer sees during a lead fall by sharing some of that upward force with the first bolt / piece assuming the leader is falling on at least the 2nd bolt / piece of the pitch (or higher). Usually this causes harder catches as the belayer is displaced less, so the force on the top piece might actually be higher because the climber decelerates faster. This is safer for the belayer (less slamming into the wall) but not in the same category of techniques as using a screamer on your anchor or first piece.
A better solution is to introduce more rope by lower the belayer as far as reasonable below the anchor before the climber starts the next pitch. Even 3-5ft extra makes a huge difference if there is only 5ft of rope in the system.
no but you are also tightening the knot around the weave, so the stresses are probably not going to be as evenly distributed coming out of the knot.
Quite an interesting result.I've been using "webolettes" for years (the term is being used generically) as it seems to be a very sensible, light, low bulk system for anchor building. @0 KN is super good enough, but I always figured they were WAY stronger than that. I did wonder if a simple overhand might give a different result vs the figure 8. Thanks for this deep dive.
I will explore that more for sure, from the tests i've done over the years, BFKs didn't have any difference with overhand vs 8 for strength but an 8 is easier to untie.
the knot wont make a difference figure 8 vs overhand
Have you tested straight vs knotted?
If not, it would be worth getting a handful of slings / straps and testing..
Even with the theory of half for the knot and double for 2 runs per leg, I'm willing to bet the knotted will be significantly weaker.
Overview lesson: two independent dyneema slings with no knots is far stronger than any sort of giant, kludged knotted runner, despite its appearance as more robust or redundant, because the weak spot is going to always be in the knot. If you want to shorten or semi-equalize the system, just running the slings doubled, or a second time around a biner, is going to preserve most of the strength, whereas any knot is going to greatly reduce it. The persistence of advocating a "guide approved" quad, or any knotted arrangement, is just bad advice, perpetuated maybe only because most real world loads are far below the potential limit of a worst case (ff2 shock) scenario; just because most of the time people get away with something, does not translate to meaning that it is acceptable over the range of worst case situations. Infrequent as they may be, the rare catastrophic failure event does occur, and realizing that we cannot ever know in advance which day, which alignment of setups, is going to be below the threshold for survival, it behooves us to just always plan as if that day is every day. We may not ever experience the worst, but over time someone, somewhere will.
2:05 Ryan break tests a whiteboard magnet bolt hanger
I don't climb, but I do a lot of rigging and find these tests interesting. When we pull shoring the 2 way at the single shackle point gets hot enough to melt the grease out of the wire is interesting how much heat is generated at the knot
Okay firstly, wow, high liners rig for 80/100KN?… this begs the question… how do you untie a BFK and a LFK after putting 100KN on it?
Ryan can you do another slacksnap update? I see you’ve put a surface over the aluminum trough and are you now using that space for the hydraulics maybe? I’d love to see how you rigged it with the redirect and both pistons.
I have a few more tweaks I want to do and then I'm going to do a full tour of the machine.
Priceless! 🤩
Our big energy absorber caribiners are only 21kn. We have a philosophy, anything over 20kn is strong enough. My last failed anchor was because the rock broke.
Energy absorber refers to friction energy. The size provides a large thermal mass.
I thought for a second you were joking with the "perfectly equalized anchor" at 2:26, but then realized you meant it with adequate length of sling going to each bolt. As is on vid there's literally only one bolt loaded. But finally got the point after thinking about it :D
I was joking that a 1 bolt anchor is a perfectly equalized anchor. It shares the load evenly with one bolt. Get it? :)
I thought it was a great joke Ryan 😂
Hello, thank you for your very informative video. Have you already carried out the same tests on relays with "South Tyrolean stand" lark heads?
the Lacrux site has shown tests but not in video
would be interested to see how the knot slides.
THANKS
You should do this video again, only measure how much force is on each anchor point, that would be really cool to see
Would love to see the test done at 6:00 done on the drop tower! A non equalized anchor/bfk. Would be cool to see if the first 2 legs breaking first would be enough to absorb some force of the fall and save the last leg. I get that it might not be the most useful test, since you’d need a big mass, maybe with static rope in a F2 fall to generate enough force to actually break it, but it would still be cool 😂 or maybe using thinner cordellete, like 5mm or something instead of a dyneema runner.
High line anchor building will be a whole new thing for me to learn lol
Maybe the lesson here is to use the rope to create the belay ? More shock absorption? Interesting vid though, thanks!!
If your anchor is marginal, and you want to have maximum force absorption, then, yes, maybe using the rope as an anchor can be good. Hopefully most of the time you’re not in that position.
In Europe we don't use slings for anchors anymore. We use rope loops instead
Europe here, and I definitely still use slings! Please tell me more about this new rope loop thing.
@@doom.azafran rope is just much more resistant than slings for anchors
@@xtremdave True, but it's way more bulkier to carry a rope loop rather than a 120cm dyneema sling. You're talking about top-rope anchors or multi-pitch?
@@doom.azafran multipitch
@@xtremdave What kind of rope do you use (and diameter) and how long?
First off, thank you for generating such great content! I get to geek out about science and climbing. Now, the point ...
There are some things to consider after watching most of tests that you did. First, the Dyneema (ultra high density or molecular weight polyethylene or UHMW PE as plastics nerds might say) tended to break around the knot. I would suspect that is due to the high friction produced as the webbing slid against the knot as the knot tightened up; that hypothesis is supported by the little Dyneema sling that broke and you noted the warm, rough, kind of melted break point. UHMWPE has a relatively low melting temperature compared to nylon, but I think that almost all of your knotted tests in this and many of your other videos have failed around the knot. The friction force * distance the webbing slides turns into heat, which softens the webbing and creates a weak spot that breaks.
Though kind of freaky, but the breaking forces were still pretty large. As you said at the end, this effect that can minimized by shock absorbing hardware.
The other detail to consider is to inspect your gear by feeling whether the webbing is still supple. If it is not, especially after a climb, then there could be melt points in the fiber that have fused adjacent fibers together. This can be in both Dyneema and nylon.
AYO, or practibolts in a HN2 video? Cool!
I think the two sling anchor is great for top roping.
No knot no problem. Agreed 👍🏻
So, you talk about factor 1 falls etc, which I think I understand, vaguely (I probably have found the video explaining it). This is more of an arborist concept, but I would love to see a drop test video looking at the shock loading of DRT vs SRT. The way I understand it, an SRT set up would always have a length of line up to the anchor/redirect, so say going up 20 feet at the ground you would have 40' of line and at the top you would have 20' while in DRT yes at the bottom you would have 40' of line but at the top you would have 0' of line.
If you fall 10 feet with 10 feet of rope in the system its going to be way higher than falling 10 feet on the first pitch of a route most of the way up with 120 feet in the system, which would barely be 3kn on your anchor. DRT would have more rope in the system so it in theory should help but if the rope is really static, it mostly doesn't matter, it all hurts at that point.
"zero force on that quickdraw"... how did the screamer extend then? love the vids, great service to the community.
Love this kind of content!
Get your redundancy by using multiple pieces, not by tying knots in one length. Knots are terribly effective stress risers. Without the knot, it would be self-equalizing and you'd be using all four strands more evenly, even as the climber changed direction slightly. Your 27.75kN test result makes sense because it didn't have the knots.
The second E in SERENE is Efficiency, and that includes for gear. Three same-length slings are not going to be self equalizing either.
im doin' more professional climbing and for me fall protection with shock absorber is natural. But yeah we have that problem whit the extending shockabsorber but my reasoning is that the harnes hopefully will at least break the fall and i might get a bruce instead of a broken bone, and the harses will hopefully help orient me so its my legs that will take the blow and not my head or back
I am amazed, I guessed nearly spot on at 21kn
I would like to see more tests of the BFK with dyneema slings. I see this done often and I think many people believe it is much stronger than it actually is.
How strong do you want it to be? Seemed 100% super good enough to me.
Love this kinda video!
Years back I used screamer, but I haven't really added it to mt kit as I've picked climbing back up because I kinda thought maybe I was just overkilling safety back in the day - now I to am wondering.
I use screamers as personal tethers in my work as a theater tech rigger
Could you make a video about the momentary forces vs the constant pull slack snap. I assume slack lining and some other sports may have higher consistent forces. Where as climbing is mostly about small constant force and potentially large momentary force. Maybe you already have and I missed it. I know you have the drop test which shows real world shock forces better. Maybe a deep dive on real world forces from a sciency/physics point of view? And how you can interpolate the data from the slack snap into a real worlld scenario. I may be over comlicating things...
Either way, thanks for the content.
We have several videos of real forces in climbing falls in the gym, factor 1 falls and factor 2 on the drop tower, rope swing, highline and even rappeling forces in all sorts of content already. I’m working on a way to put this together in a “Bolting Bible” a-z content so you can just scroll through 1 blog and see it all summarized and chase the rabbit of your choosing.
Wildly interesting video!!
Isn't dynamic rope enough of a shock absorber?
Should be?
It's breaking because of the knots right?
jw... how much kN is a typical fall? How much of a range is it? I can't imagine me, a 70kg dude, falling and causing a 21kN force. I can imagine multiple people in a chain falling and having a really bad day and hitting those numbers but I imagine/experience, especially with all the redundancies, that you won't really have a catastrophic failure. I guess what I'm asking is: are these tests ~really~ comparable to real life situations?
Now would you please test three clove hitches with no slack in between, using the climbing rope please ? I have never been convinced that all that (cordellette) 'dweebery' is worth the time. Test three cloves horizontal and then three vertical (drawing slack out from between) using the climbing rope. On the vertical alignment test I would like to see three mid sized cams a foot above the next, connected with clove hitches on the climbing rope and no slack between cloves to where if you jiggle the line below lowest cam all three respond. ?
Great video, thanks!
So im a rigger not a climber but even tho the sling broke at auch higher load than it is needed at, it seems weird that you tied the fig8 knot in the sling.. id like to see the same test without the knot and the crab just joining 3 or even 2, without the knot they can move and equalise! Although if one log breaks you would obviously fall.. but it did break at the knot evertime...
As Long as there is only one strain in the carabiner, the strength of the Loop doesnt Double. You Need to count the strains in the fix points
This sort of reminds me of those giant spools of nylon cord at home depot. Rather than hunt down an employee to cut the thing, you just wrap it around your hand and use the nylon to cut the nylon. I think a similar things happening here. As the tension increases, the rope is cutting itself. I wonder if it would be feasible for these anchor ropes to be double sheathed. You have your normal sheathed core, and then a significantly weaker outer sheathing. In theory, it should make it so that as it tightens, it cuts away the outer sheathing, revealing the much stronger sheathing, which shouldn't be cut by the knot.
So how would I use a screamer for protection when falling? Tied between the rope and my harness? I think all PAS should be made of dynamic rope. On the plus side, us meatbags, when we hit that rope we don't hit it all at once like a weight, our mushy liquids and limbs are fairly dynamic, as though we are built to fall at the end of a rope. And when you said use two slings, well now it's not equalized is it.
You clip it to the sketchy gear in place of a runner.
If you fall, it dramatically reduces peak force by ripping (and extending). I’ve used them before, typically on micro nuts and heads when aiding. they do work.
Typically their activation force is too high to be as useful on your end, and I’m not sure I’d trust them (or they’d be worth the hassle). The ones I used wouldn’t deploy if you had to jug on them, for instance.
They get pretty bulky, and can break in extreme situations.
Appreciate the actual testing, but your title said 'not anchors are bomber', true, but every anchor you tested _was bomber_ , none failed at loads generated in even typical factor 2. BTW - your advice was spot on, I don't know why people seem obsessed with tying knots in slings, thinking it is somehow better than the lazy way, when the lazy way is demonstrably better: don't tie knots in slings, just use 2 slings.
I'm curious, standing behind the motor where the sling breaks isn't dangerous?
At 8:33, is the crackling sound the sound of single filaments breaking one after another? This is something I would indeed expect for an older work-out fabric in contrast to a brand new one where all the filaments are still kind of aligned and equally strong. I think I've seen a video where a guy from Edelrid stated that this is what you can actually hear when break-testing older stuff.
I'd like to see the webollete anchor with no knot. It would self equalize regardless of direction, and wouldn't have the issue of losing half its strength from the knot. I suspect you'd get a lot more out of it.
Thank you
This is great info and all, but in saxony you have a single ring as an anchor if your lucky
Any chance you could test a linkcam?
Also stacking two hexes/nuts in the same placement (like a red and gold hex into a silver sized crack?
I might test my link cams once I have cam crusher 2.0. I don't use them anymore but have had them for a really long time.
You should be aware that a webolette rigged as you used it puts roughly twice the load on the piece with the two strands as compared to the pieces with one stand. This is because the double strand is twice as stiff. As the strands stretch the load goes to the double. Try it. Super good enough? Maybe for bolts, but it is worth knowing this for trad anchors and is why I stuck with a spectra cordelette.
hello at 8:46 what is brand name for those carabiner
What would happen if you just basket the sling?
I'd like to see gac flex tested someday .
Great video.
Did you ever do the screamer test video? All I could find was a short about the Petzl one.
Maybe this is a stupid question…but the knot being the failure point makes sense to me.
Let’s say all three anchors are equally loaded. The thing that WONT be equal is the knot because it is going to cinch generating heat in a localized spot. That heat difference is what causes the line to fail at that localized point.
Wouldn’t a failure at any other point be indicative of a defect?
How do I get bolts that I can move to where I want them 🙂
The screamers sound like interesting content. Do they make reusable ones or are they all single use? Seems like a static rope would be easier to ascend and descend in say the arborist profession or applications were you are actively using the rope.Maybe a screamer and static line as opposed to dynamic?
I would be interested to see you test some screeners as described at the end of the film.
Talking about the screamers or shock absorbers.. This might sound nuts but theoretically could you use a daisy chainin place of a shock absorber in a way so the stitching would blow one by one and slow you down enough to catch you by the time it turns into a normal sling..? Or am I way off lol
I want to do a rope swing on 100% daisy chained screamers to test that
@@HowNOT2 if you do it - we wanna see it! As always