Quick acknowledgement in favor of your videos. I'm a geologist and really appreciate the respect you give the hard rock. I'm also way too fat and old to even consider even lowlining, but i really dig what you folks are doing. Mostly, i enjoy hearing perspective from just about anybody who has invested sufficient time to display some level of mastery in their chosen craft. All the best!
Another non-climbing geologist here. A cursory understanding of rocks and weathering could be interesting for climbers. Altought I recognize they operationally know enough.
Holy hell man, I'm just getting into bolting (with support from locals) and this kinda thing is insanely informative and better than what I've seen elsewhere. Cheers, thank you.
At 13:50, the comment re the lower back-up that never saw any wear and should thus be safe...this is true for this setup but needs to be applied with caution. In corrosive environments, ex. close to the ocean, the reason for anchor/bolt failure will probably be due to this environment, and not wear from climbing traffic. Both anchors will have been exposed to the same environment, and thus if one fails there is a high chance the other will fail too, especially under a bit of shock load, which this setup will provide. Great refresher on anchors though :)
I really like the setup with the ram's horns on the top at 15:45 but agree the reverse carabiner would have many eyebrows raised without an explanation. Any reason why you wouldn't just put two opposed carabiners instead? Even a single locking one seems better for redundancy
Pre-rigged for lowering is not taught often enough. Thank you for showing this! I still climb with people that setup top rope anchors requiring someone to untie and so forth before coming down.
The only caution is to not preclean and use mussys without a PAS. That killed a local climber at Sandrock, AL. The group assumed it couldn't be screwed up since it was pre-cleaned, the novice climber went above the mussys to remove the locker, fell or let go, and the unloaded rope unclipped both.
15:40 gate facing rock... Well, even with no protrusions, depending on the leaning of the wall and if it is in that position when you fall, it could make the rope load it near to the gate, where it is weaker...
15:51 I think adding one more link to the chain on the lower bolt would let the carabiner lie flat against the rock with the gate facing away (right) from the ram's head. That would probably solve the problem but it requires one more chain link. With the gate facing into the rock, you could get weird loading on the carabiner that's not along the spine (although I'm sure a 1 ft dynamic fall wouldn't break it anyways)
In Frankenjura and Altmühltal (two of the oldest and best destinations in germany) there are almost no redundant anchors. There is just one well placed Glue in and thats it...pretty scary sometimes... not to forget about the hight of the first bolt on older routes, it's often at around 7 meters...
Always fun to open the guidebook and see 30-35m routes and then - quickdraws needed - 5 ... That's the case with old classic routes in Bulgaria as well, I always tend to avoid those :D
At the ~13:40 mark... if the top maillon wore out enough for us considering it to break... wouldn't that make it sharp AF due to the grooving and potentially cutting the rope before breaking?
The premise: I live, and climb, in Italy. Here we prefer to use two bolts Connected together with a chain, often (but not always) of stainless steel, all connected to the rope with a stainless carabiner, on sport routes. On multipitch sport route (Non-classic /traditional routes) often have only two "ferla"s (i didn't found out the right translate, sorry dude) that can be used to make an anchor with rope or sling and you can directly pass you rope into theme. I also advise you to check out my "home crack", Pietra di Bismantova, where many highline meetings are made... Pritty special place in my opinion! P. S. I love all your work on this channel, you are so inspiring and you also help me a lot to study English, thanks dude!
Awesome. I think I know what the "Ferla's" are... we have anchors in bolting bible in climbing anchor section that has bolts that you can just put the rope directly into them. Pretty cool. I've never used them in person before.
I like just seeing two hangers. It not only keeps the thieft down, the cost to the community down, but is a standard the community has come to expect. Haven't seen many of the rams horns or HD tow hooks in the Red but lots of offset chains. Again, I think two bolts/hangers is more the enough.
Here in europe we most often see completly assembled belay stations in a vertical bolt pattern with a chain and rings. I really like the rings a lot more than the quicklinks, because they wear out evenly and the risk of your rope getting pinched against the rock is a bit lower.
@@maxhappi Yup same, just 2 weeks ago. Worn out in 2 different spots, almost half of the material was missing. Good thing was that it had two rings, so I just used the top ring.
@@bohwaz 2 different spots in one ring is common because often the worn out part gets placed on top and so the ring gets worn down on the exact opposite spot also
I was curious about the ethics of lowering off fixed gear, described at 10:25. Obviously you should never make a top rope through the fixed gear, but what about a pair of climbers who both want to climb the same route? The video implies it is okay for two climbers to take turns, both lowering off the fixed gear. I assumed that in a group of climbers, whether 2 or 20, only the last climber should lower off the fixed gear. If my partner and I both want to climber the same route, the first climber clips quickdraws to the anchor and lowers off the quickdraws. The second climber repeats the route and cleans the quickdraws from the anchor and lowers off the fixed gear. What do others think or recommend?
Depends on the local culture. I think in most areas that are being equipped with open system lowers off it is expected that people will climb and lower off thru the hardware and their partner will follow to clean the gear. Owen's river gorge is an example. In the guide written by Marty who has equipped many of the routes he states this and asks parties to set up their own anchors if they intend to TR a large party. Personally I set up my anchors with the expectation that people will TR on them. My systems have one or 2 components that will see wear that fairly cheap and easy to replace. For the cost of 1 quad I can re equip 3 or 4 anchors with steel hardware that will last way longer, speed up turn over time between parties, and require less steps where an accident could occur. There is also a guide trick where you put a personal carabiner in such a way that it is taking all the wear while it is backed up by the permanent hardware. The last person can just unclip it and be lowered down on the permanent hardware. Beware that open systems are not fool proof, add a locking carabiner to reduce the risk of roll out if you intend to TR on it for awhile or go above it. -Bobby
No clue if you're going to see this given the video is from six months ago, but: What about doing a twisted maillon on the lower bolt so that it makes the SS captive-eye 'biner lay flat to the rock with the spine toward the primary bolt and the gate facing away ((in this scenario, spine to the left and gate to the right) ... although that may cause an undesirable rub on the rope. Idk, it was just a thought.
On multi pitch climbs I much prefer vertically spaced anchors with lots of space between. This way you can put a carabiner into the upper bolt to ensure the rope runs up from the belay device.
At 14:43 you mention the captive eye carabiner. If I'm going to trust my self to a piece of kit, I'm going to opt for a locking carabiner. I normally carry at least 2 steel omega lockers or stubai's for a slimmer fit. A little bit of overkill but worth it I think.
Same thing happened to us last year... Literally right as the rope was about to pull all the way through it whipped around back on itself and got stuck... We yanked on it, shook it, tried 5 to 1 pulley, literally everything until the guy who owned the rope finally jugged up to retrieve it. We had an extra rope and could've bailed. I still get a sick feeling thinking about that day...
It should be simple enough to do this safely. Attach the free end to a ground anchor. a As you jug, you lead belay yourself with a clove hitch or Grigri or a big prussik.
I've just thought this through and I think it should be possible to do this without any serious risk... Lets say youre pulling the rope through and at some point along the way it gets caught up in the anchor and wont budge. The other end of the rope is now out of reach, somewhere between you and the anchor. Given that your rope length must be at least twice the height of the pitch, if you do the math, you should have just enough excess rope to do a normal lead belay up to the point where the other end of the rope is hanging, now you can clove hitch it or something so that even if the unintentional anchor hitch slips, the rope won't slide through. Then you can just jug the rest of it safely.
Common in the euro alps is maillon on one bolt, second bolt at 45 degree up angle joined by a loop of rope formed with two fisherman's. Easy to back up or replace with your own tat on the route.
I’m a relatively new route developer. In my area, standard practice is to use a horizontal two bolt (3/8” x 3 1/2”) configuration for anchors. Plated steel quicklinks wrenched down linked to the hangers, with plated steel chains 5 links long connected to that. We often leave aluminum carabiners we are willing to part with clipped to the last link for easy lower off. We have recently gone to 5/16 chain and quicklinks (still plated steel) because both are plenty strong and quite a bit less expensive. On the low end, an anchor like this costs $22ish. With all stainless steel hardware, an anchor like this would be north of $40. It’s not all about cost, but when you install many routes every year, it starts to add up fast. Most of the crags in our area, especially new ones, do not get a lot of traffic, so that is also a consideration. If I were developing in a popular area, I might reconsider some things, but I still find that the setup we use is more than acceptable. I try to use SS bolts/hangers always. We have mostly single pitch trad and sport here. I have found though that the plated steel components of our anchors in this area hold up well over the years. Where can you get those ram horns things? Those look sweet!
I source the Rams Horns from team-tough.com. I think they call them pigtails. I don't really like the double chain set up. With the plated steel on granite and limestone I see lots of white streaks where the plating leaches off and kills the lichen and what not. Carrying chain also sucks. Depending on my anchor setup I spend anywhere from $15 to $30 all Stainless.
At 10:45 you clipped the quad on top of the gear that was there already. I was first taught that you should not do that and always clip under the links or whatever gear is there. What would you say to that? Is that true? Wouldn't the forces of you TR on top of the gear add an extra hotspot or wear onto a weird angle on your carabiners?
Its quite common near me to just have 2 big glue-in bolts to re-thread the rope through. These tend to be at less popular crags as to replace them you'd have to take the old bolt out or drill a new hole which isn't ideal. But it's quite neat.
In the UK we have all sorts of anchor setups depending on area but they’re always closed systems. However there is only 1 location I know of with an open system. In this area the anchor is 2 bolts, usually horizontal, each with a pigtail direct into the bolt. It works but ends up getting abused by fixed gear top ropers which is generally not accepted in the UK.
I've seen open systems in Dinorwig Quarry (Crag named Australia) on Sport routes in Wales. Many of the routes there have gated carabiniers on the handers. The gate isn't closed with springs or screwgates, rather you put the rope in and a piece of metal inside the carabiner can be moved to wedge the gate shut while you get lowered down. I tried to find a picture of the carabiner but can't.
Thanks for the word of caution about getting the rope stuck. I like to always rap because it's less wear on my rope, and I can always do things the same way, and I can give the belayer a break.
There's quite a bit on the subject out there www.alpenverein.at/portal/news/aktuelle_news/2014/2014_07_03_abseilen-am-sauschwanz.php (german) The gist is that there have been quite a few of accidents while rappelling off of pigtails due to the rope being unloaded on both ends and coming undone (for example when going over a ledge). The recommendation for pigtails is that you should only be passively lowered off (one side is always under tension) and ideally, always add redundancy with a Quickdraw or biner as in the video.
If a ramshorn is installed at an anchor that is also used to belay a subsequent pitch, it is probably important to bypass it and clip the bolts directly for the belay; it is not closed so as to withstand multi-directional pulls, and is designed for modest top-rope and rappel loads, not a potential factor 2 leader fall.
In your vertical open anchoring system set up where you have the rams horn above and the link below as a safety. Where your using a wire gate carabiner as the second portion. The outward rope open vs rock face opening my the carabiner issue why not use a screw lock carabiner ?
Thank you for making this video, I always wondered why some anchors were bolted offset when they clearly could have been bolted horizontally. Some people have told me to never lower off of offset anchors and always rappel off of them because it would twist my rope. Which I found a little strange because I have lowered off of many anchors that are horizontally even, that have twisted my rope. One thing some local developers are doing in my area is having steel wire-gate carabiners at the ends of chains. Which I like for lead climbing on sport routes. I have seen an anchor where it was one steel locking carabiner attached to the ends of both chains. What are your thoughts on just having rap rings on quick links attached to the hangers, specifically for sport and single pitch TRAD routes?
Rap rings work just fine. They do require you to untie the rope, (not necessarily go off belay) which is a risk that I feel is generally unnecessary in a single pitch crag. The ASCA is leading the charge to upgrade anchors to open system lower offs where you can just flip the rope into the anchor and have your belayer lower you. When I am new routing I install open system lower offs for single pitch. I use rap rings on multi pitch rappel lines where you have to untie regardless. -Bobby
@@HowNOT2 Thanks Bobby, I'll keep that in mind should I decide to bolt a route or help in replacing anchors (with permission from the developer). I'll bring that up to local developers here in Skaha and the Okanagan Valley climbing community.
Quick physics reminder - it shouldn't surprise you that you couldn't pull the rope "no matter how hard you pulled" (similar things have happened to me before). Think about pushing a wood box along the pavement, but you're pushing downward at a 45 degree angle. No matter how hard you push, the box will never move, because you're also pushing down which increases the friction, and the static friction holding the box in place will always exceed the force you're applying to try to move the box. Similar things often happen in rock climbing - where pulling harder on the rope also increases the friction. The component of force trying to pull the rope out is proportional to how hard you pull, and the component of force causing friction is also proportional to how hard you pull, and if that second proportionality constant is bigger, you will never pull the rope no matter how hard you pull.
This is true, however you are potentially not constantly pulling in the same direction, you will increase and decrease the load, pulling a dynamic rope will decrease the diameter or, depending on the kind of twist the load might become greater than the force that prevents untwisting, for example if the small rigid plastic cap at the end of the rope prevents it from coming undone. Since you likely don't see what's going on from down there I'd rather not bet my life on it.
@@stealz5000 I mean yeah... really dumb to climb up an unsecured rope just because its hard to pull down. you are most likely to die when you are about to reach the top, and you are now pulling much more away from the rock then you were before, and all the friction you were getting from the rock surface is gone, and the rope is allowed to slip. As you say - not pulling in a constant direction. And also... yeah... good point, the ropes friction with itself will depend on its radius, which will change as the tension changes as you climb up. Really my comment is not meant to support climbing up unsecured ropes, its meant to address people who think "oh if I just pull harder the rope must come out eventually right!!???" No. there are situations where pulling harder is unlikely to help.
@@crazedvidmaker I appreciated your first explanation which I hadn't really thought of this way tbh. It's also applicable to knots themselves. I just wanted to give it some clearer context so people don't get any stupid ideas.
@@stealz5000 Heh. yeah. that's exactly how knots work. you certainly cant untie a knot by pulling as hard as possible, exactly because pulling harder increases the friction faster than any forces trying to untie the knot (you will break the rope first)
Whoops. This is what happens when I post 8 weeks after filming haha. I'll put in description but this is one of them ruclips.net/video/Y-pLP9dRWPc/видео.html
At 15m when you were worried about the gate being undone by rope and said turn carabiner I was just wondering why you wouldn’t use a locking carabiner instead? As it’s being used as redundant it won’t be wearing a lot but will take the catch and can’t be undone by rope (or am I being dumb I’m a relatively new climber)
About the gate turned to the wall, if the gate is pressed against a pertrusion on the rock, maybe it could be pushed open? Im not sure if this could happen or if it is a problem, just popped in my mind
Guys, do you have videos on how to actually drilling and placing the bolts along routes and for anchor points? I was looking into material to place couple of bolts on a high boulder to abseil from the top to clean it properly and safely. I thought one of your videos would pop up at the top of my research but it didn’t 🤔
In Spain the most common type of anchor in my experience (Andalucía un general), is a closed system with a chain joining both bolts and a welded ring in the middle to lower off. This means it's not redundant as the ring is your only safety. But the ring it's self is backed up to both bolts, which are much less likely to fail...
How would I setup a top rope anchor in case of vertically oriented bolts as seen in the latter part of the video? Or one would not top rope in cases like that?
I commonly see on just hard sport climbs what are called open shuts which is basically a ‘U’ shaped ring of metal that you just put your rope though on each bolt and lower off.
i've broke tested some closed shuts but i'm curious about break testing the open ones. I'm sure it fine but something mental about it that doesn't get me stoked.
Question on bolting etiquette: I have a crag near me with several established sport routes and I want to project them. However, I want to rope solo them and it would increase my safety to place two bolts near the belay position at the base of each route for my upward pulling anchor. Is it poor form to add those two bolts to support my unconventional form of climbing?
Something I’ve always wondered. Are the locking chain links from the hardware store strong enough to rappel off of? Thought that might be a good thing to keep on a harness as bail piece.
not sure where you're located, but if you have an REI nearby they often have rappel rings for ~$5. You can also buy quicklinks online, for $3-$10, and use them to bail on a route. I keep two on my harness when I sport climb, and rappel rings w/ extra webbing when I scramble. If you ask me, my life is worth much more than $10
(Sorry for a long reply to an old comment, but maybe still useful advice) Even though they might be strong enough to rappel on, you shouldn't use hardware store quicklinks to bail. There are climbing-rated quicklinks (also available at REI etc) which are strong enough to hold falls and only cost a few more dollars each. Consider that you're leaving it on a bolt mid-climb that someone else will need to use: if anyone clips it instead of the hanger you really don't want a link that will break just above body weight. It's also generally preferred to use carabiners anyhow, since even the strong quicklinks can quickly weld shut or rust and become a pain to remove--I'd really only use quicklinks to bail on a route you know people will climb and clean soon after you.
Regarding anchor with ram's horns is dangerous and can lead to a potential accident. There is still a lot of this in Europe. You can read about it in "Sicherheit und Risiko in Fels und Eis " author Pit Schubert. I don't know is this book translated into English. But he explains a lot there.
It's because you don't care anyway...when you reach the top you were brave enough to climb the 7m to the first bolt, so you are brave enough to lower from one bolt too ;) Welcome to Altmühltal, or older stuff in Frankenjura, ...
@@jsl2phdx Also, for some old chimneys you don't need bolts at all! A UIAA 3 chimney can't be that hard *cough*. Also, a climber broke her ankle in one of these very high first bolt routes a few weeks ago.
wait till you see some of the boltings in Australia, the sketchy DIY bolts(carrots, single u bolt lower offs ) that have become "tradition" will give u anxiety nightmares.
@@HowNOT2 they are about as sketchy as fixed gear gets. Carrots are really a right of passage in Aus as it's unique I guess. From what I can gather they were originally regular bolts shaped into a point and superglued into a hole. May have changed now but that's what I have heard
@@HowNOT2 Here is a rough guide to our bolting. U bolts seem to be most common in older climbs at the top, most climbs where at my crag are glue ins. Fixed hangers are slowly replacing them however which is nice. www.safercliffs.org/code/bolt_guide.html
Hey Ryan, my brother and I watched a ton of your highline videos. We finally bought a kit to setup highlines (despite you telling us not to 😬). Your buying guide videos were extremely useful. Thanks for the awesome content. I can't believe this information is available. ps. I'm looking forward to the day when highlining gear is standardized so I don't have to order a hodge-podge of stuff from the US, Canada and Europe. Why the hell is Slacktivity the only company that makes Hangovers?!
This is fine as long as the system is equalised throughout the climb. If you have a route that is a direct straight line to the top and the load will always be equalised between the two quickdraws (and therefore bolts) I'd be 100% confident in it. It's sketchier when the route traverses to the left or right, as then only one quickdraw would be loaded at a time. If this bolt failed, then you're shock loading the other bolt. You could argue that the forces are sufficiently small in a top rope context that this isn't a problem, I have done the setup you describe many times. Perhaps you could also switch out the non-locker crab on the bolt-side of one quickdraw for a screwgate for added security since you don't have eyes on the gear at all times. A quad anchor would be ideal for a top rope setup as it's self equalising as you traverse left and right on top rope. Using a long sewn dyneema sling (180/240cm) makes it very easy to setup, too.
Probably not too relevant for the bolting Bible but you should check the Brazilian P bolt system. It is really good if you need to bail or if you need another foothold but really back for mostly everything else 😅
@@HowNOT2 that is awesome! Yes I'm talking about the grampo P it is the most popular bolt in Brazil. I have a couple routes in Rio de janeiro that are fully bolted with them. The original design is from the first acend of the Dedo de Deus (finger of god) more than 110 years ago. The guy that opened the route was a railway worker and he did it just to prove some foreign climbers who said it was a impossible because they couldn't do it that they were just incompetent! Lol and he made the bolts himself. Really cool story Some of the original bolts are still there and and in use! Let me know if you want help with more information related to the grampo P I will be happy to help!
@@HowNOT2 I've being saving my last P bolt since i moved to Vancouver to place in the most run out slab move i can open in squamish. Just to freak people out! But i guess now everyone will know what it is... Awesome content by the way!
At first I was confused, the backup should be the higher bolt but with the ram horn this isn't an option. This menas incase of a failure the backup would be seeing more force, throe the anker level. Iam having a hard time to explain it, but I think everybody gets my point. With a ram horn you will always have the additional force, because your backup is lower than your masterpoint.
I'm climbed in places that have "staples" with a ram's horn/pig's tail attached. While the staple is glued in top and bottom and feels pretty bomber, I don't feel great about them, doesn't really seem redundant
I do want to test staples. I don't think they provide any more value as a single hole bolt. If you have fractured rock, holes right next to each other doesn't seem like a good idea either. But I will research and test these to see what I can find
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Damn, I love this channel. I will forever recommend this guy for anyone who is curious about climbing safety
highlining as well :)
Quick acknowledgement in favor of your videos. I'm a geologist and really appreciate the respect you give the hard rock. I'm also way too fat and old to even consider even lowlining, but i really dig what you folks are doing. Mostly, i enjoy hearing perspective from just about anybody who has invested sufficient time to display some level of mastery in their chosen craft. All the best!
I love how you put "I love learning new things from experienced people" so professional :) and same
Another non-climbing geologist here. A cursory understanding of rocks and weathering could be interesting for climbers.
Altought I recognize they operationally know enough.
Holy hell man, I'm just getting into bolting (with support from locals) and this kinda thing is insanely informative and better than what I've seen elsewhere. Cheers, thank you.
Thanks. I had a hard time finding good information when I was doing my research years ago.
Cheers? Who says that
@@NewzAndReviewz brits
I like Bobby's anchors. Feels much more safe than most open systems.
At 13:50, the comment re the lower back-up that never saw any wear and should thus be safe...this is true for this setup but needs to be applied with caution. In corrosive environments, ex. close to the ocean, the reason for anchor/bolt failure will probably be due to this environment, and not wear from climbing traffic. Both anchors will have been exposed to the same environment, and thus if one fails there is a high chance the other will fail too, especially under a bit of shock load, which this setup will provide. Great refresher on anchors though :)
I really like the setup with the ram's horns on the top at 15:45 but agree the reverse carabiner would have many eyebrows raised without an explanation. Any reason why you wouldn't just put two opposed carabiners instead? Even a single locking one seems better for redundancy
Agreed. A "Captive Eye Locking Biner" for the lower bolt back-up would make me feel good about that setup.
Can never have enough of this info online. Thanks!
Pre-rigged for lowering is not taught often enough. Thank you for showing this! I still climb with people that setup top rope anchors requiring someone to untie and so forth before coming down.
I have found myself not wanting to climb again at the end but I would be the only one who could clean it up. Not fun. Now I pre-set up everything.
The only caution is to not preclean and use mussys without a PAS. That killed a local climber at Sandrock, AL. The group assumed it couldn't be screwed up since it was pre-cleaned, the novice climber went above the mussys to remove the locker, fell or let go, and the unloaded rope unclipped both.
@@TheMetalButcher Completely agree. Always have a backup when transitioning.
15:40 gate facing rock... Well, even with no protrusions, depending on the leaning of the wall and if it is in that position when you fall, it could make the rope load it near to the gate, where it is weaker...
For an anchor, hopefully you aren't falling on it directly from above; this is for toproping and rappelling off, I think.
15:51 I think adding one more link to the chain on the lower bolt would let the carabiner lie flat against the rock with the gate facing away (right) from the ram's head. That would probably solve the problem but it requires one more chain link. With the gate facing into the rock, you could get weird loading on the carabiner that's not along the spine (although I'm sure a 1 ft dynamic fall wouldn't break it anyways)
Ew no
I like your Tool Wall Behind/ Now trying to copy it to my garage. (TKS for Good Sample)
You really care for safety and excellent explanation of every aspect :)
Dam it, super informative, i remember roping to trees for anchors many years ago and now there’s many different options
In Frankenjura and Altmühltal (two of the oldest and best destinations in germany) there are almost no redundant anchors. There is just one well placed Glue in and thats it...pretty scary sometimes...
not to forget about the hight of the first bolt on older routes, it's often at around 7 meters...
Always fun to open the guidebook and see 30-35m routes and then - quickdraws needed - 5 ... That's the case with old classic routes in Bulgaria as well, I always tend to avoid those :D
At the ~13:40 mark... if the top maillon wore out enough for us considering it to break... wouldn't that make it sharp AF due to the grooving and potentially cutting the rope before breaking?
16:00 - what about adding another quick link so the gate faces right?
The premise: I live, and climb, in Italy.
Here we prefer to use two bolts Connected together with a chain, often (but not always) of stainless steel, all connected to the rope with a stainless carabiner, on sport routes. On multipitch sport route (Non-classic /traditional routes) often have only two "ferla"s (i didn't found out the right translate, sorry dude) that can be used to make an anchor with rope or sling and you can directly pass you rope into theme. I also advise you to check out my "home crack", Pietra di Bismantova, where many highline meetings are made... Pritty special place in my opinion!
P. S. I love all your work on this channel, you are so inspiring and you also help me a lot to study English, thanks dude!
Awesome. I think I know what the "Ferla's" are... we have anchors in bolting bible in climbing anchor section that has bolts that you can just put the rope directly into them. Pretty cool. I've never used them in person before.
I like just seeing two hangers. It not only keeps the thieft down, the cost to the community down, but is a standard the community has come to expect. Haven't seen many of the rams horns or HD tow hooks in the Red but lots of offset chains. Again, I think two bolts/hangers is more the enough.
Here in europe we most often see completly assembled belay stations in a vertical bolt pattern with a chain and rings. I really like the rings a lot more than the quicklinks, because they wear out evenly and the risk of your rope getting pinched against the rock is a bit lower.
Mathis Länzlinger I was about to comment exactly the same. It's the most common in european sport climbing routes.
Yes, I really like those, for example Fixe "D" Belay rappel. Quite common in Europe , but all crags are different.
Not long ago I encountered a not evenly worn out ring (on a sport route anchor).
@@maxhappi Yup same, just 2 weeks ago. Worn out in 2 different spots, almost half of the material was missing. Good thing was that it had two rings, so I just used the top ring.
@@bohwaz 2 different spots in one ring is common because often the worn out part gets placed on top and so the ring gets worn down on the exact opposite spot also
great content was just looking for a refresher on this topic.
Awesome I love that you doing climbing videos too. Big it from Sweden
I was curious about the ethics of lowering off fixed gear, described at 10:25. Obviously you should never make a top rope through the fixed gear, but what about a pair of climbers who both want to climb the same route? The video implies it is okay for two climbers to take turns, both lowering off the fixed gear. I assumed that in a group of climbers, whether 2 or 20, only the last climber should lower off the fixed gear.
If my partner and I both want to climber the same route, the first climber clips quickdraws to the anchor and lowers off the quickdraws. The second climber repeats the route and cleans the quickdraws from the anchor and lowers off the fixed gear.
What do others think or recommend?
Depends on the local culture. I think in most areas that are being equipped with open system lowers off it is expected that people will climb and lower off thru the hardware and their partner will follow to clean the gear. Owen's river gorge is an example. In the guide written by Marty who has equipped many of the routes he states this and asks parties to set up their own anchors if they intend to TR a large party.
Personally I set up my anchors with the expectation that people will TR on them. My systems have one or 2 components that will see wear that fairly cheap and easy to replace. For the cost of 1 quad I can re equip 3 or 4 anchors with steel hardware that will last way longer, speed up turn over time between parties, and require less steps where an accident could occur.
There is also a guide trick where you put a personal carabiner in such a way that it is taking all the wear while it is backed up by the permanent hardware. The last person can just unclip it and be lowered down on the permanent hardware.
Beware that open systems are not fool proof, add a locking carabiner to reduce the risk of roll out if you intend to TR on it for awhile or go above it.
-Bobby
No clue if you're going to see this given the video is from six months ago, but:
What about doing a twisted maillon on the lower bolt so that it makes the SS captive-eye 'biner lay flat to the rock with the spine toward the primary bolt and the gate facing away ((in this scenario, spine to the left and gate to the right)
... although that may cause an undesirable rub on the rope. Idk, it was just a thought.
On multi pitch climbs I much prefer vertically spaced anchors with lots of space between. This way you can put a carabiner into the upper bolt to ensure the rope runs up from the belay device.
14:21 - a noob question, why not just put the rope through the quick link? why do we need a biner there?
the quick link is there to link your gear to. It's there to handle the load, not the wear. The flying biner is for handling the wear.
At 14:43 you mention the captive eye carabiner. If I'm going to trust my self to a piece of kit, I'm going to opt for a locking carabiner. I normally carry at least 2 steel omega lockers or stubai's for a slimmer fit. A little bit of overkill but worth it I think.
Thanks for this video! I've been waiting for this exact one but I love them all. I've learned a lot from you. Thank you.
that was me that jugged that line when it got stuck!!! one of the scariest things ive done!!! lol
Same thing happened to us last year... Literally right as the rope was about to pull all the way through it whipped around back on itself and got stuck... We yanked on it, shook it, tried 5 to 1 pulley, literally everything until the guy who owned the rope finally jugged up to retrieve it. We had an extra rope and could've bailed. I still get a sick feeling thinking about that day...
Good thing I'm good at ro-sham-bo :)
It should be simple enough to do this safely. Attach the free end to a ground anchor. a
As you jug, you lead belay yourself with a clove hitch or Grigri or a big prussik.
@@rockclimbinghacks9222 Only works if there are bolts on the way up.
I've just thought this through and I think it should be possible to do this without any serious risk... Lets say youre pulling the rope through and at some point along the way it gets caught up in the anchor and wont budge. The other end of the rope is now out of reach, somewhere between you and the anchor. Given that your rope length must be at least twice the height of the pitch, if you do the math, you should have just enough excess rope to do a normal lead belay up to the point where the other end of the rope is hanging, now you can clove hitch it or something so that even if the unintentional anchor hitch slips, the rope won't slide through. Then you can just jug the rest of it safely.
More of this 👍🏽
Will do
Common in the euro alps is maillon on one bolt, second bolt at 45 degree up angle joined by a loop of rope formed with two fisherman's. Easy to back up or replace with your own tat on the route.
I’m a relatively new route developer. In my area, standard practice is to use a horizontal two bolt (3/8” x 3 1/2”) configuration for anchors. Plated steel quicklinks wrenched down linked to the hangers, with plated steel chains 5 links long connected to that. We often leave aluminum carabiners we are willing to part with clipped to the last link for easy lower off. We have recently gone to 5/16 chain and quicklinks (still plated steel) because both are plenty strong and quite a bit less expensive. On the low end, an anchor like this costs $22ish. With all stainless steel hardware, an anchor like this would be north of $40. It’s not all about cost, but when you install many routes every year, it starts to add up fast. Most of the crags in our area, especially new ones, do not get a lot of traffic, so that is also a consideration. If I were developing in a popular area, I might reconsider some things, but I still find that the setup we use is more than acceptable. I try to use SS bolts/hangers always. We have mostly single pitch trad and sport here. I have found though that the plated steel components of our anchors in this area hold up well over the years. Where can you get those ram horns things? Those look sweet!
I source the Rams Horns from team-tough.com. I think they call them pigtails. I don't really like the double chain set up. With the plated steel on granite and limestone I see lots of white streaks where the plating leaches off and kills the lichen and what not. Carrying chain also sucks. Depending on my anchor setup I spend anywhere from $15 to $30 all Stainless.
At 10:45 you clipped the quad on top of the gear that was there already. I was first taught that you should not do that and always clip under the links or whatever gear is there. What would you say to that? Is that true? Wouldn't the forces of you TR on top of the gear add an extra hotspot or wear onto a weird angle on your carabiners?
Its quite common near me to just have 2 big glue-in bolts to re-thread the rope through. These tend to be at less popular crags as to replace them you'd have to take the old bolt out or drill a new hole which isn't ideal. But it's quite neat.
Rappel instead of lower and you'll have very little wear
@@FlightRecorder1 No, I don't think I will!
What is that carabiner with the rappel device built in that you were using called ??
In the UK we have all sorts of anchor setups depending on area but they’re always closed systems. However there is only 1 location I know of with an open system. In this area the anchor is 2 bolts, usually horizontal, each with a pigtail direct into the bolt. It works but ends up getting abused by fixed gear top ropers which is generally not accepted in the UK.
not true, there are many 2 bolts with chains connected to a loweroff style 'biner' , esp in Yorkshire sport.
I've seen open systems in Dinorwig Quarry (Crag named Australia) on Sport routes in Wales.
Many of the routes there have gated carabiniers on the handers. The gate isn't closed with springs or screwgates, rather you put the rope in and a piece of metal inside the carabiner can be moved to wedge the gate shut while you get lowered down.
I tried to find a picture of the carabiner but can't.
Thanks for the word of caution about getting the rope stuck. I like to always rap because it's less wear on my rope, and I can always do things the same way, and I can give the belayer a break.
Good video! What diameter cordalette are you using for the quad anchor?
This idea that nuts only screw down seems like an urban legend. Vibrations that drive motion like that are much stronger than gravity.
how to you retrieve your rope in the first anchor style. Do you have to leave a carabiner behind in order to repel down?
I can 't find it right now. But I think there is an article by DAV about NOT using pig taile for lower off.
There's quite a bit on the subject out there
www.alpenverein.at/portal/news/aktuelle_news/2014/2014_07_03_abseilen-am-sauschwanz.php (german)
The gist is that there have been quite a few of accidents while rappelling off of pigtails due to the rope being unloaded on both ends and coming undone (for example when going over a ledge). The recommendation for pigtails is that you should only be passively lowered off (one side is always under tension) and ideally, always add redundancy with a Quickdraw or biner as in the video.
Thanks a lot for making these videos!!
If a ramshorn is installed at an anchor that is also used to belay a subsequent pitch, it is probably important to bypass it and clip the bolts directly for the belay; it is not closed so as to withstand multi-directional pulls, and is designed for modest top-rope and rappel loads, not a potential factor 2 leader fall.
I learned to always equalize my anchors. Is that needless overkill for bolt anchors?
8:30 that's what (i/we) do, except I pull the "tail" before we lower... saves wear
I went climbing in Coratie last summer and they had a fixed quickdraw at the top. So easy, just clip in and lower yourself down
I also was there and you have right, but is still danger system because only one carabine is there.
Double rams horn is pretty common in some areas (New Jack City in SoCal has a fair number of these). You also missed rap rings directly on the hangar.
At 7:50 what’s device is being used instead of a daisey chain?
In your vertical open anchoring system set up where you have the rams horn above and the link below as a safety. Where your using a wire gate carabiner as the second portion. The outward rope open vs rock face opening my the carabiner issue why not use a screw lock carabiner ?
Thank you for making this video, I always wondered why some anchors were bolted offset when they clearly could have been bolted horizontally. Some people have told me to never lower off of offset anchors and always rappel off of them because it would twist my rope. Which I found a little strange because I have lowered off of many anchors that are horizontally even, that have twisted my rope. One thing some local developers are doing in my area is having steel wire-gate carabiners at the ends of chains. Which I like for lead climbing on sport routes. I have seen an anchor where it was one steel locking carabiner attached to the ends of both chains. What are your thoughts on just having rap rings on quick links attached to the hangers, specifically for sport and single pitch TRAD routes?
Rap rings work just fine. They do require you to untie the rope, (not necessarily go off belay) which is a risk that I feel is generally unnecessary in a single pitch crag. The ASCA is leading the charge to upgrade anchors to open system lower offs where you can just flip the rope into the anchor and have your belayer lower you. When I am new routing I install open system lower offs for single pitch. I use rap rings on multi pitch rappel lines where you have to untie regardless.
-Bobby
@@HowNOT2 Thanks Bobby, I'll keep that in mind should I decide to bolt a route or help in replacing anchors (with permission from the developer). I'll bring that up to local developers here in Skaha and the Okanagan Valley climbing community.
❤ Bobby's vertical ram's horn setup
@ 15:00 just add another chainlink, turn the captive carabiner 90 degrees. Worth the $5 to not worry about lesser of two errors
I generally install them directly to the bolt accomplishing the same purpose. Didn't have the right hardware that day.
-Bobby
Quick physics reminder - it shouldn't surprise you that you couldn't pull the rope "no matter how hard you pulled" (similar things have happened to me before). Think about pushing a wood box along the pavement, but you're pushing downward at a 45 degree angle. No matter how hard you push, the box will never move, because you're also pushing down which increases the friction, and the static friction holding the box in place will always exceed the force you're applying to try to move the box. Similar things often happen in rock climbing - where pulling harder on the rope also increases the friction. The component of force trying to pull the rope out is proportional to how hard you pull, and the component of force causing friction is also proportional to how hard you pull, and if that second proportionality constant is bigger, you will never pull the rope no matter how hard you pull.
This is true, however you are potentially not constantly pulling in the same direction, you will increase and decrease the load, pulling a dynamic rope will decrease the diameter or, depending on the kind of twist the load might become greater than the force that prevents untwisting, for example if the small rigid plastic cap at the end of the rope prevents it from coming undone.
Since you likely don't see what's going on from down there I'd rather not bet my life on it.
@@stealz5000 I mean yeah... really dumb to climb up an unsecured rope just because its hard to pull down. you are most likely to die when you are about to reach the top, and you are now pulling much more away from the rock then you were before, and all the friction you were getting from the rock surface is gone, and the rope is allowed to slip. As you say - not pulling in a constant direction. And also... yeah... good point, the ropes friction with itself will depend on its radius, which will change as the tension changes as you climb up.
Really my comment is not meant to support climbing up unsecured ropes, its meant to address people who think "oh if I just pull harder the rope must come out eventually right!!???" No. there are situations where pulling harder is unlikely to help.
@@crazedvidmaker I appreciated your first explanation which I hadn't really thought of this way tbh. It's also applicable to knots themselves.
I just wanted to give it some clearer context so people don't get any stupid ideas.
@@stealz5000 Heh. yeah. that's exactly how knots work. you certainly cant untie a knot by pulling as hard as possible, exactly because pulling harder increases the friction faster than any forces trying to untie the knot (you will break the rope first)
The description seems to be missing the links to the "more reputable" videos that you said would be there.
SIET has some good videos, they're a reputable org. EG ruclips.net/video/3Dx2w358rWY/видео.html
Whoops. This is what happens when I post 8 weeks after filming haha. I'll put in description but this is one of them ruclips.net/video/Y-pLP9dRWPc/видео.html
Can you do a video on how to install bolts?
Open cold shuts can be found in the Northern Sierras.
7:38 I had this video in full screen on my phone. That tree in the top left of the screen made me think I had cracked my screen! 🤣🤣
What if you double Rams Horn the vertical bolt pattern? Or double opposing carabiner the lower bolt?
Bobbys anchor seems good :)
How to climbing steel cables?? Vertically. How to descending the steel lines???
At 15m when you were worried about the gate being undone by rope and said turn carabiner I was just wondering why you wouldn’t use a locking carabiner instead? As it’s being used as redundant it won’t be wearing a lot but will take the catch and can’t be undone by rope (or am I being dumb I’m a relatively new climber)
About the gate turned to the wall, if the gate is pressed against a pertrusion on the rock, maybe it could be pushed open? Im not sure if this could happen or if it is a problem, just popped in my mind
Guys, do you have videos on how to actually drilling and placing the bolts along routes and for anchor points? I was looking into material to place couple of bolts on a high boulder to abseil from the top to clean it properly and safely. I thought one of your videos would pop up at the top of my research but it didn’t 🤔
Have you checked out the Bolting Bible on Hownottohighline.com?
In Spain the most common type of anchor in my experience (Andalucía un general), is a closed system with a chain joining both bolts and a welded ring in the middle to lower off. This means it's not redundant as the ring is your only safety. But the ring it's self is backed up to both bolts, which are much less likely to fail...
How would I setup a top rope anchor in case of vertically oriented bolts as seen in the latter part of the video? Or one would not top rope in cases like that?
I commonly see on just hard sport climbs what are called open shuts which is basically a ‘U’ shaped ring of metal that you just put your rope though on each bolt and lower off.
i've broke tested some closed shuts but i'm curious about break testing the open ones. I'm sure it fine but something mental about it that doesn't get me stoked.
@@HowNOT2 That might be something cool to test out.
AMAZING !
THANK YOU !
AMEN.
I didnt believe that people would steal links(mailon rapide) until someone stole 2 sets of links from my anchor at local crag😖😖
Is grabbing a QD for support considered aid climbing?
YES MORE CLIMBING ANCHORS!!
ok!
What do you think about Mad Rock?
You can double up the carabiners below the Rams Horn
I like the ram's horn in principle but don't think I'd use it without the backup biner. I like the biner for redundancy where it isn't getting worn.
There’s some test with Ham Horn? And Mini Top from Raumer?
Good job 👍
can yall go over anchors off of trees and the like?
I like Bobby's way, ram horn on top.
Question on bolting etiquette: I have a crag near me with several established sport routes and I want to project them. However, I want to rope solo them and it would increase my safety to place two bolts near the belay position at the base of each route for my upward pulling anchor. Is it poor form to add those two bolts to support my unconventional form of climbing?
Depends on local ethics. I would say that would be frowned on at most crags at this point in history.
with the pig tails wouldnt it be better to put it on the lower bolt and put a chain up to the upper bolt.
Great stuff! Thanks!
Something I’ve always wondered. Are the locking chain links from the hardware store strong enough to rappel off of? Thought that might be a good thing to keep on a harness as bail piece.
not sure where you're located, but if you have an REI nearby they often have rappel rings for ~$5. You can also buy quicklinks online, for $3-$10, and use them to bail on a route. I keep two on my harness when I sport climb, and rappel rings w/ extra webbing when I scramble. If you ask me, my life is worth much more than $10
@@fed9931 thanks Fedor! Great info, I’m glad to hear someone else has thought of doing this. Just seems like a good thing to have in some cases.
(Sorry for a long reply to an old comment, but maybe still useful advice) Even though they might be strong enough to rappel on, you shouldn't use hardware store quicklinks to bail.
There are climbing-rated quicklinks (also available at REI etc) which are strong enough to hold falls and only cost a few more dollars each. Consider that you're leaving it on a bolt mid-climb that someone else will need to use: if anyone clips it instead of the hanger you really don't want a link that will break just above body weight.
It's also generally preferred to use carabiners anyhow, since even the strong quicklinks can quickly weld shut or rust and become a pain to remove--I'd really only use quicklinks to bail on a route you know people will climb and clean soon after you.
Great information. Thank you
Regarding anchor with ram's horns is dangerous and can lead to a potential accident. There is still a lot of this in Europe. You can read about it in "Sicherheit und Risiko in Fels und Eis " author Pit Schubert. I don't know is this book translated into English. But he explains a lot there.
What is the name of the silver locking carabiners on your prerigged anchor?
Not anchor related but have you tested the strength of Australian style removable hangers compared to normal fixed hangers?
You have a source for those or know how tgeythey are modified
„You will always see redundancy on an anchor”... not in Germany. Mostly just one bolt on top to rappel.
Or a tiny tree
It's because you don't care anyway...when you reach the top you were brave enough to climb the 7m to the first bolt, so you are brave enough to lower from one bolt too ;)
Welcome to Altmühltal, or older stuff in Frankenjura, ...
@@jsl2phdx Also, for some old chimneys you don't need bolts at all! A UIAA 3 chimney can't be that hard *cough*. Also, a climber broke her ankle in one of these very high first bolt routes a few weeks ago.
Amazing content thank you very much
When you place the quad shouldn't the binders be under the chain.
Any chance we can see more highlining
Some awesome highline projects in the works.
wait till you see some of the boltings in Australia, the sketchy DIY bolts(carrots, single u bolt lower offs ) that have become "tradition" will give u anxiety nightmares.
Carrot bolts would be fun to test if anyone can give some details on them as I have only heard of them in an article in climbing magazine.
-Bobby
@@HowNOT2 they are about as sketchy as fixed gear gets. Carrots are really a right of passage in Aus as it's unique I guess. From what I can gather they were originally regular bolts shaped into a point and superglued into a hole. May have changed now but that's what I have heard
@@HowNOT2
Here is a rough guide to our bolting. U bolts seem to be most common in older climbs at the top, most climbs where at my crag are glue ins. Fixed hangers are slowly replacing them however which is nice. www.safercliffs.org/code/bolt_guide.html
7:38 This is awesome!!!
Hey Ryan, my brother and I watched a ton of your highline videos. We finally bought a kit to setup highlines (despite you telling us not to 😬). Your buying guide videos were extremely useful. Thanks for the awesome content. I can't believe this information is available.
ps. I'm looking forward to the day when highlining gear is standardized so I don't have to order a hodge-podge of stuff from the US, Canada and Europe. Why the hell is Slacktivity the only company that makes Hangovers?!
Are you appear in Xinshidandan video??
Yes! We also helped in their newest video too ruclips.net/video/115m7ji5mdY/видео.html
What about setting an anchor with two opposite facing quick draws?
This is fine as long as the system is equalised throughout the climb. If you have a route that is a direct straight line to the top and the load will always be equalised between the two quickdraws (and therefore bolts) I'd be 100% confident in it. It's sketchier when the route traverses to the left or right, as then only one quickdraw would be loaded at a time. If this bolt failed, then you're shock loading the other bolt.
You could argue that the forces are sufficiently small in a top rope context that this isn't a problem, I have done the setup you describe many times.
Perhaps you could also switch out the non-locker crab on the bolt-side of one quickdraw for a screwgate for added security since you don't have eyes on the gear at all times.
A quad anchor would be ideal for a top rope setup as it's self equalising as you traverse left and right on top rope. Using a long sewn dyneema sling (180/240cm) makes it very easy to setup, too.
Probably not too relevant for the bolting Bible but you should check the Brazilian P bolt system.
It is really good if you need to bail or if you need another foothold but really back for mostly everything else 😅
Are you talking about the Grampos P? We are editing a episode we did testing those.
@@HowNOT2 that is awesome! Yes I'm talking about the grampo P it is the most popular bolt in Brazil. I have a couple routes in Rio de janeiro that are fully bolted with them.
The original design is from the first acend of the Dedo de Deus (finger of god) more than 110 years ago. The guy that opened the route was a railway worker and he did it just to prove some foreign climbers who said it was a impossible because they couldn't do it that they were just incompetent! Lol and he made the bolts himself.
Really cool story
Some of the original bolts are still there and and in use!
Let me know if you want help with more information related to the grampo P
I will be happy to help!
@@HowNOT2 I've being saving my last P bolt since i moved to Vancouver to place in the most run out slab move i can open in squamish. Just to freak people out! But i guess now everyone will know what it is...
Awesome content by the way!
ruclips.net/video/ScoczRy6R6E/видео.html
History of the P bolt origin
At first I was confused, the backup should be the higher bolt but with the ram horn this isn't an option. This menas incase of a failure the backup would be seeing more force, throe the anker level. Iam having a hard time to explain it, but I think everybody gets my point. With a ram horn you will always have the additional force, because your backup is lower than your masterpoint.
shockloading won't happen at a dangerous level because your rope would absorb the shock. See Shockloading is a myth video we recently put out
2:48 Mnemonic device--Screw down so you don't screw up
13:15 your quick link is upside down
I'm climbed in places that have "staples" with a ram's horn/pig's tail attached. While the staple is glued in top and bottom and feels pretty bomber, I don't feel great about them, doesn't really seem redundant
I do want to test staples. I don't think they provide any more value as a single hole bolt. If you have fractured rock, holes right next to each other doesn't seem like a good idea either. But I will research and test these to see what I can find
@@HowNOT2 searching for a photo of one, I found this example from Malaysia
imgur.com/a/mVpVp6v
Crushing it
I have never been a rock climber and never will be able to, how I have arrived here is beyond me.