Fantastic Video!I just discovered your channel and I feel like alpine climbing tips is a niche that's not yet filled in terms of youtube creators. So I really hope your channel will grow more, absolutely great stuff!
Yes... a veeeeery deep dive! Personally I think the first 2 methods are enough to show, but this should satisfy advocates from most countries! I particulalry liked the "off both shoulders look" - I've not seen that before and will have a play with it. I would like to link to this video from the UIAA Training website if you are interested.
The current standard taught in Austria to beginners is a variant of what you call the „North American tie off“. The difference is that (1) the coils are longer (even slightly longer than in 21:21)- so that they don’t crunch you up and the tie off forms a compact knot and (2) the overhand goes around both strands of the bight through the belay loop. This solves the two problems you mentioned - but of course there are other tradeoffs
Agree, in France too we have a longer version made with the hand at level of the harness loop. The partner check is that the partner pulls your rope and it should pull on the harness loop not on your shoulders.
What I mostly do is a mix of the Stuffed Rope and the unblocked coils, I basically just stuff the rope into my pack but if in any case I need to shorten the rope I'd do it with just a few unblocked coils, of course if it's too much I would stop and actually stuff them back. But it works very well for me. Best of both worlds.
Great video!! Just a couple notes: -when you put the rope in the pack, when you want to shorten the rope you just do 2 or 3 coil around your chest so you don't have to put in the backpack; -when you tie in the machard you do a backpack knot to avoid the rope to slide through the machard in case off fall. It's super easy to undo and to slide the rope, much easier than in a clove hitch.
Thanks for the awesome information Dave! One thing I would add is a hybrid system that I use a lot. Starting with as much rope as I can in the backpack, and if/when I have to take rope out then back in, I'll just add a few coils around my body. So the majority of the rope is still in the bag, and then maybe I have just 4 loops around my body. Works wonders.
That was an excellent video. Haven’t seen any other videos that go this deep into this subject. Very clear and very informative. Would really like to see your take on a crevasse rescue. ATB from Norway 🇳🇴
Excellent video! I definitely learned some drawbacks to the system I was taught and will have to experiment with some of the other techniques you demonstrated.
Very interesting and well explained. The prusik/machard setup is generally backed up by a knot on the unloaded strand of the rope, i.e. between the prusik and the rucksack/coils. That helps preventing the rope to slide through the prusik when loaded as you correctly pointed out. Personally, I sometimes coil half of the rope (30 m of a 60 m rope) and place it over by backpack like you would do on the approach or inside if I have space. I find it more comfortable to carry the extra weight and I’ve half of the rope neatly stored away ready to be deployed when needed (abseiling). Thanks for the great content!
Yeah I've seen the back up knot being used like that but it begs the question what is the benefit of that system. I guess its good to have a prusik already loaded for going straight into climbing the rope. I do also see a lot of folks not using that backup knot also.
@@DaveSearle I'd say that one, maybe minor, advantage is that you can pay out slack when the rope is loaded more easily with a prusik than with a clove hitch. Even when unloaded I find easier pulling the rope through a prusik compared to adjusting a clove hitch.
Excellent video. Just started taking my 5 year old son out on some Snowdonia scrambles so like to have a reference to make sure that my coils are good.
THANKS for this :) The method I use is similar to the prussik method you discussed at the end, I use a slightly thicker and longer prussik though that serves both as a way for adjusting rope length, and can easily be deployed as a foot strap in the case of self rescue to help you quickly climb out of a crevasse, aside from what you talk about in the video what do you think are the pros and cons of this kind of system??
Thanks for another excellent video! I can't be the only one doing this: tie in, first strand goes behind left shoulder (I'm a righty), take up coils like you're butterflying, capture the end bights, tie off like a mountaineer coil, stick left shoulder through. It drops all at once without having to flake. Safety concerns?
I'm interested in the advantages of the british system, which seems much quicker to untie coils with and facilitates giving of slack without untying. I use the "germanic-us" system through the belay loop, but dislike the cinching you talked about and find taking in coils very time consuming. A have a couple of questions: 1) How does a lead fall impact the tie in point with the carabiner? Any particular risks? Are these sufficiently mitigated with the use of special carabiners you presented ? 2) How do you belay off of your belay loop? Doesn't the carabiner somewhat block the use of another carabiner/plaquette? Some people use a hybrid "germanic-us" system as a base and then top it off with british style kiwi coil tie off for an supplementary slack.
I've come back to this video again and again, as it is the most comprehensive and helpful video I've found on the matter! One question, though. Is it at all unsafe to undo the carabiner while it's under load in order to remove the loop? I know there are different schools of thought on this, but learning in the (overly safe?) USA, we were generally taught not to open the carabiner in a life-saving system, but I can also understand that the risk is probably extremely low of something going wrong. Thanks again!
@@DaveSearle I figured that was the case. And I assume you'd only open it when the clove isn't loaded in order to take coils in or out when you're in a good spot with minimal fall risk. And even then, you have the coils blocked off on your chest which would basically do the same job... Anyway, good chat 😆
I don't quite understand putting the micro trax directly on the initial load line. As I understood it, the advantage of using a knot with a loop (OH, figure8) vs. a clove hitch is that you can transfer the load to the anchor and then build a 2:1 or a 6:1 drop c on your unused rope because 1) the load line is probably dug in to the lip and 2) if it's a 2p team, you probably have alpine butterfly knots to catch so you can't haul on that line.
Good question! I know exactly the system you have been taught and it does make a lot of sense to do a drop loop c if you have enough of a reserve of rope. For me I never find that I have that much of a reserve of rope to be able to perform that rescue (if I had to of course, it’s something you never hope to have to do!) if you are a team of two on a rope then you will likely have 15-20 meters of rope between you plus knots. You would then both need 30-42 meters of rope in reserve to be able to perform a rescue. Could be feasible if you have two 60m ropes and one person takes the coils and the other takes the other rope in their bag, that’s how I’d do it on a really big wild glacier. The system that I’m describing is commonly taught in the als where we operate with 50m single ropes a lot of the time and doing a drop loop c 2:1 isn’t feasible because there simply isn’t enough rope in the system. Putting the rope straight through a Microtraxion then running the rope over something at the lip works fairly well. You can then strip braking knots as they come towards the micro trax. Hope that helps!
Such a great video. Now i have to rethink about everthing i thougt i knew about chest coils. I relly enjoy lerning from your videos and Posts. I have one question. When doing the sheet bend, would it be possible to do it around your belay loop? so no worries about ringloding the 8. regards from Germany
Yes I did try that and it seems to work fine except my concern is rope on dyneema belay loop might not grip as well. Hard to test to know for sure. also some belay loops aren't soft or supple enough. I feel like a figure 8 with stopper is pretty good for this and frees up the belay loop for other things like a Connect Adjust which takes up quite a bit of space.
Hello Dave. Thank your for year great videos. I have a general question: Which rope length do you use for Classic Alpine Climbs (e.g. in Swiss) up to PD/AD and what is your "standard" crevasse rescue technique in case something happens. Thank you!
It depends a lot on the route but I would say 50m is good for classic technical routes in the alps. 60 can be useful sometimes but I would say is less common as a Standard length.
Hi harry, it depends on the situation to be honest! When travelling on a glacier it would be good to be just clipped in so you can easily unclip. In rocky scrambling it’s better to be tied in with a retreaded overhand knot for example. Perhaps there is more to talk about there!
@@DaveSearle would there be any reason for the scrambling approach to warrant being tied in rather than just clipped in? Interesting and thanks for the quick reply!
can you please tell me how many metres Accessory cords you leave on the snow mountain when you get down the the snow mountain.cuz I feel very hard to get down a snow mountain😢
I haven't used this but just thought about it being possible (not practical probably). But why not take your coils, and then use a grigri with an overhand cinched against it, allows for easy taking up rope as well as easy feeding out, and instant transition to belaying should your leading climber come across something thats prefferd to not simul.
Interesting thought! Could work on certain routes but probably not practical in a lot of alpine situations. Not sure how grigris perform in the cold/snow
Excellent video. Best one I've seen on this.
Thanks!
Fantastic Video!I just discovered your channel and I feel like alpine climbing tips is a niche that's not yet filled in terms of youtube creators. So I really hope your channel will grow more, absolutely great stuff!
Glad it was helpful! I do hope to grow it over the coming years.
Yes... a veeeeery deep dive! Personally I think the first 2 methods are enough to show, but this should satisfy advocates from most countries! I particulalry liked the "off both shoulders look" - I've not seen that before and will have a play with it. I would like to link to this video from the UIAA Training website if you are interested.
Please do!
The only video I need to practice taking coils 👏 Excellent!
Great!
The current standard taught in Austria to beginners is a variant of what you call the „North American tie off“. The difference is that (1) the coils are longer (even slightly longer than in 21:21)- so that they don’t crunch you up and the tie off forms a compact knot and (2) the overhand goes around both strands of the bight through the belay loop. This solves the two problems you mentioned - but of course there are other tradeoffs
Agree, in France too we have a longer version made with the hand at level of the harness loop. The partner check is that the partner pulls your rope and it should pull on the harness loop not on your shoulders.
Ahh yea I need this knowledge
I really needed a video like this last winter. So glad to have it now. Thank you!!!
Now you have it!
What I mostly do is a mix of the Stuffed Rope and the unblocked coils, I basically just stuff the rope into my pack but if in any case I need to shorten the rope I'd do it with just a few unblocked coils, of course if it's too much I would stop and actually stuff them back. But it works very well for me. Best of both worlds.
Great video!! Just a couple notes:
-when you put the rope in the pack, when you want to shorten the rope you just do 2 or 3 coil around your chest so you don't have to put in the backpack;
-when you tie in the machard you do a backpack knot to avoid the rope to slide through the machard in case off fall. It's super easy to undo and to slide the rope, much easier than in a clove hitch.
Very usefull and complete videos to know the different methods and which one to use when
Most definitely the best explanation i have seen!! Very thorough and professional thank you.
Glad it was helpful!
Thanks for the awesome information Dave!
One thing I would add is a hybrid system that I use a lot.
Starting with as much rope as I can in the backpack, and if/when I have to take rope out then back in, I'll just add a few coils around my body. So the majority of the rope is still in the bag, and then maybe I have just 4 loops around my body. Works wonders.
Thanks! Good input!
That was an excellent video. Haven’t seen any other videos that go this deep into this subject. Very clear and very informative. Would really like to see your take on a crevasse rescue. ATB from Norway 🇳🇴
Excellent video. You taught an old dog new tricks!
Glad you liked it!
Super-informative video, many thanks!
Outstanding. Comprehensive, balanced and well delivered. Best I’ve seen on this topic.
Thanks!
Excellent video! I definitely learned some drawbacks to the system I was taught and will have to experiment with some of the other techniques you demonstrated.
You’re welcome!
Very interesting and well explained. The prusik/machard setup is generally backed up by a knot on the unloaded strand of the rope, i.e. between the prusik and the rucksack/coils. That helps preventing the rope to slide through the prusik when loaded as you correctly pointed out. Personally, I sometimes coil half of the rope (30 m of a 60 m rope) and place it over by backpack like you would do on the approach or inside if I have space. I find it more comfortable to carry the extra weight and I’ve half of the rope neatly stored away ready to be deployed when needed (abseiling). Thanks for the great content!
Yeah I've seen the back up knot being used like that but it begs the question what is the benefit of that system. I guess its good to have a prusik already loaded for going straight into climbing the rope. I do also see a lot of folks not using that backup knot also.
@@DaveSearle I'd say that one, maybe minor, advantage is that you can pay out slack when the rope is loaded more easily with a prusik than with a clove hitch. Even when unloaded I find easier pulling the rope through a prusik compared to adjusting a clove hitch.
Really nice video!! good points, a lot to take away and use. keep up the good work, love all the videos, glad they're are back!!
Glad you like them!
Love your content Dave 👍
Thanks!
Absolutely god tier video, so much information in here and presented in a very balanced way.
Thanks!
muy bueno el vídeo.
casi siempre, resulta que lo más sencillo es lo más seguro y lo más rápido.
gracias !!
Excellent video. Just started taking my 5 year old son out on some Snowdonia scrambles so like to have a reference to make sure that my coils are good.
Glad it was helpful!
So good, thanks for doing these 🙏🏻
You're welcome!
❤ Thank you for this video!
You’re welcome!
Extremely useful !!
Great!
Excellent tutorial. Thanks!
Glad it was helpful!
Thanks for this video
You’re welcome!
THANKS for this :) The method I use is similar to the prussik method you discussed at the end, I use a slightly thicker and longer prussik though that serves both as a way for adjusting rope length, and can easily be deployed as a foot strap in the case of self rescue to help you quickly climb out of a crevasse, aside from what you talk about in the video what do you think are the pros and cons of this kind of system??
Cheers, good vid!
No worries!
Thanks for another excellent video!
I can't be the only one doing this: tie in, first strand goes behind left shoulder (I'm a righty), take up coils like you're butterflying, capture the end bights, tie off like a mountaineer coil, stick left shoulder through. It drops all at once without having to flake. Safety concerns?
Excellent instruction. 🙏🏽
I'm interested in the advantages of the british system, which seems much quicker to untie coils with and facilitates giving of slack without untying. I use the "germanic-us" system through the belay loop, but dislike the cinching you talked about and find taking in coils very time consuming. A have a couple of questions:
1) How does a lead fall impact the tie in point with the carabiner? Any particular risks? Are these sufficiently mitigated with the use of special carabiners you presented ?
2) How do you belay off of your belay loop? Doesn't the carabiner somewhat block the use of another carabiner/plaquette?
Some people use a hybrid "germanic-us" system as a base and then top it off with british style kiwi coil tie off for an supplementary slack.
I've come back to this video again and again, as it is the most comprehensive and helpful video I've found on the matter! One question, though. Is it at all unsafe to undo the carabiner while it's under load in order to remove the loop? I know there are different schools of thought on this, but learning in the (overly safe?) USA, we were generally taught not to open the carabiner in a life-saving system, but I can also understand that the risk is probably extremely low of something going wrong. Thanks again!
Try and get a loaded clove hitch out of a carabiner when it’s open. It’s basically impossible!
@@DaveSearle I figured that was the case. And I assume you'd only open it when the clove isn't loaded in order to take coils in or out when you're in a good spot with minimal fall risk. And even then, you have the coils blocked off on your chest which would basically do the same job... Anyway, good chat 😆
I don't quite understand putting the micro trax directly on the initial load line. As I understood it, the advantage of using a knot with a loop (OH, figure8) vs. a clove hitch is that you can transfer the load to the anchor and then build a 2:1 or a 6:1 drop c on your unused rope because 1) the load line is probably dug in to the lip and 2) if it's a 2p team, you probably have alpine butterfly knots to catch so you can't haul on that line.
Good question! I know exactly the system you have been taught and it does make a lot of sense to do a drop loop c if you have enough of a reserve of rope. For me I never find that I have that much of a reserve of rope to be able to perform that rescue (if I had to of course, it’s something you never hope to have to do!) if you are a team of two on a rope then you will likely have 15-20 meters of rope between you plus knots. You would then both need 30-42 meters of rope in reserve to be able to perform a rescue. Could be feasible if you have two 60m ropes and one person takes the coils and the other takes the other rope in their bag, that’s how I’d do it on a really big wild glacier. The system that I’m describing is commonly taught in the als where we operate with 50m single ropes a lot of the time and doing a drop loop c 2:1 isn’t feasible because there simply isn’t enough rope in the system. Putting the rope straight through a Microtraxion then running the rope over something at the lip works fairly well. You can then strip braking knots as they come towards the micro trax. Hope that helps!
thank you for the best explain 😍😍😍😍
Great video! Unrelated question- love the map print on your wall behind you, is that a print available to buy somewhere ?
Ah ha. It’s actually a custom job. Swisstopo maps printed out in poster quality.
amazing thanks you share
Such a great video. Now i have to rethink about everthing i thougt i knew about chest coils. I relly enjoy lerning from your videos and Posts.
I have one question. When doing the sheet bend, would it be possible to do it around your belay loop? so no worries about ringloding the 8.
regards from Germany
Yes I did try that and it seems to work fine except my concern is rope on dyneema belay loop might not grip as well. Hard to test to know for sure. also some belay loops aren't soft or supple enough. I feel like a figure 8 with stopper is pretty good for this and frees up the belay loop for other things like a Connect Adjust which takes up quite a bit of space.
Hello Dave. Thank your for year great videos. I have a general question: Which rope length do you use for Classic Alpine Climbs (e.g. in Swiss) up to PD/AD and what is your "standard" crevasse rescue technique in case something happens. Thank you!
It depends a lot on the route but I would say 50m is good for classic technical routes in the alps. 60 can be useful sometimes but I would say is less common as a Standard length.
When climbing with 3, what would your preferred method of tying the 'middle' person into the rope? Many thanks and great video!
Hi harry, it depends on the situation to be honest! When travelling on a glacier it would be good to be just clipped in so you can easily unclip. In rocky scrambling it’s better to be tied in with a retreaded overhand knot for example. Perhaps there is more to talk about there!
@@DaveSearle would there be any reason for the scrambling approach to warrant being tied in rather than just clipped in? Interesting and thanks for the quick reply!
Thanks
can you please tell me how many metres Accessory cords you leave on the snow mountain when you get down the the snow mountain.cuz I feel very hard to get down a snow mountain😢
Would you do this multi pitch rock climbing in alpine environment ?
I thought you were just a torso at first, I was worred. 😮😂
I haven't used this but just thought about it being possible (not practical probably). But why not take your coils, and then use a grigri with an overhand cinched against it, allows for easy taking up rope as well as easy feeding out, and instant transition to belaying should your leading climber come across something thats prefferd to not simul.
Interesting thought! Could work on certain routes but probably not practical in a lot of alpine situations. Not sure how grigris perform in the cold/snow
@@DaveSearle indeed, probably too heavy. Grigris work fine on wet ropes but iced up is a whole different story and I wouldn't know.
Not well. Ice/ snow and Grigris are a bad mix.
Top
Overhand is diffucult to untie after it has been heavily loaded, alpine butterfly is a lot better in that sense.
Good point thank you.
Good step-by-step tutorial, but video could be shrinked to half the time.
Well then it wouldn’t be a deep dive…