3:59 , word to the wise for anyone that plans on bringing dyneema pullcord, if at all possible never ever ever throw a bundle of dyneema pullcord down the rappel. That stuff is infamous for turning into the worst knotted, tangled, gordian knot you've ever seen. On our first outing when it was still a fairly new concept, I tossed it down and it did just that. I spent 30min on rappel trying to untangle it to no avail. Keep it with you, or what us canyoneers have found works best, get a small pullcord bag to keep it in. A small chalk bucket, or anything with an opening that can be cinched shut, works very well.
I use it on a very regular basis for throwline for treework and understand what you mean. It takes intuition, patience and finesse. Just hope it wasn’t pulled tight while in a big mess of a knot lol. I keep mine stored in a pop up throw cube and it stores well like that and rarely tangles
Arborist trick coming in: Two different size ropes tied together, use your smaller rope( blue in video) to tie a clove hitch at least 8 in up your bigger rope (Black in video). With the remaining 8in of black tie half hitches with blue rope along every 2 in till you run off the tail. This keeps the rope in line with out bends and moves in the direction of the pull. It greatly lowers your chance of getting caught as its widest point is only slight thicker then the diameter of the black rope. I doesnt get caught in trees and is we have really reefed on it with any issues. I would love to know if there is slippage and if the cord is weaker then the knot. (testing opportunity wink wink) Also thanks for making great content as always and showing faults when they happen its makes the rest of us average humans feel like we still have an idea what we are doing even when we make mistakes.
I come from professional canyoning so we use this all the time. When combining two different ropes, we normaly use a simple flat overhand and then a second flat overhand right behind to stop the knot from moving. Works perfekt.
Not a pro, but my canyoneering experience and research backs the flat overhand... Generally a pull cord is thicker than the shoe lace used in this video🤣 6mm still much lighter than a second climbing rope and not awful to pull. carabiner block we use is clove on a locker.
@@robertito_dobbs Yeah the 6mm works perfekt. Very light (50m are aprox. 1kg), but in an emergence, say you loose your main rope, you can still use it for abseiling to the next emergency exit.
As a professional tree climber/arborist I constantly connect thin throwline to my climbing rope to pull the rope through the tree. The throw line is not made from dyneema but still pretty slippery because its waxed. We use a clove hitch and 2-4 half hitches to connect the throwline to the rope
I second that! apparently it is somewhat common to pile hitch the throw line to the rope (+a bunch of half hitches) among those climbers who keep a loop of some kind in the end of their throwline to girth hitch the throwball on... at that point it seems that anything will work with a bunch of half hitches, the choice boils down to what you can tie/untie easily in line of such tiny diameter
Yup. Kind of hilarious to see you reinvent what us tree people do a bunch of times every day. And the big reason is that literally anything else snags and tangles.
For the middle of ropes you can thread a piece of heavy duty sewing machine thread. I just went over and under a few strands in the sheath in a spiral pattern with a normal sewing needle. Pick any color you like! It takes a little time to install but it lasted me a full season of climbing and then some. Also if you're paying attention you'll feel it too, which can be nice in low light settings.
Yes same here. Used to even do it all 10m. Not only the middle, using different coding. I did not use thread, but just some stuff pulled from other old climbing materials sheath, so it has the same diameter and look..
For some work I did I needed to mark soft material in all kinds of colors; The go-to pen for that was silver. Didn´t come across a color that wouldn´t show up on. So maybe you can mark the middle of your rope with some silver Sharpie,too. Regarding the knot, I´d expect an Albright knot or a Nail knot to hold well; They work for fishing, so I wouldn´t see why they shouldn´t work for climbing. Edit: A Marlspike hitch in with the spine of a carabiner as handle would give you a good grip on the pull cord. I guess you could also clip a sling to the carabiner and loop it around your chest/ over your foot if for some reason you really wanted to get some weight on it.
sharpie uses toxic solvents and is highly hazardous to the environment. That's the price you pay for ink that sticks on anything. Better you don't use it and find a better solution.
Hey, we were the folks who said hi at the lake on our way up to do the other ridge! Sounds like the South Ridge parties had more fun; we ended up bailing halfway through the second pitch. If our cordellete is still up there, you're welcome to keep it 😅
I always have a spliced eyelet in one end of the dyneema, and use a 3/16 (0.7 oz) quicklink only if needed. I have also just included the dyneema all the way in a bfk. My pull tests occasionally had the dyneema break at 1100 lbs, if it crosses itself. Amsteel can get stuck in small cracks, so i spool the amsteel out of a small bag attached to my chest. Best oprion is to put the spliced eyelet over the rope in the middle of th bfk, where the bfk gets its bulk from the main rope (say two triple overhands).
Knot blocks are tricky if you are using an established quicklink-- sometimes people leave huge links. I always have an extra 3/16" link to put on the webbing if the existing link is huge -- pass the rope through both links. Also try ways to use a biner block even with a tag line.
We use this same concept in arborist settings for retrievable canopy anchors. In some cases using throwline (very thin dynema) or another climbing line for retrieval
Good video. I tie 1.5mm dyneema/nylon cords to big ropes often for tree work (throw balls to set anchors, string to leave out to preserve anchor points). What works for me, is to clove hitch onto the bigger rope, with an overhand stopper on the cord, so that the clove doesn't need any tail. This has the advantage that it will easily go through tight unions in a tree without snagging, or through a pulley, and is very quick to tie and loosen.
Uncoiling the amsteel on rappel is always the crux. I find using a light plastic "line winder" used for spooling kiteboarding lines works perfectly. I also put a fixed eye in the end of my amsteel that I can just run the climbing rope through for a quick bowline.
Am I missing something here?….since the small cord is non-weight bearing, is there any reason to NOT use something cheap and readily available (I.e. para cord) rather than expensive, slippery dyneema?!
@ Not expensive? A quick search shows 200’ of 2.5 or 3mm dyneema at approximately $120-$150….200’ of para cord is $16. While I’m in no way a fan of compromising safety in favor of saving a buck, using a cord as purely a retrieval line (it will NEVER be responsible for keeping a climber safe) seems like a great place to avoid overkill and have some funds left over for safety gear that really matters. You wouldn’t or couldn’t rap on thin little dyneema in a pinch, nor would you want to try descending on para cord, so, to my way of thinking, the extra strength of dyneema is wasted. Convince me otherwise! I’m open to additional thoughts!
I have no idea. I'd probably use Paracord, but slippery dynema would be less likely to get snagged and desheathed or abraded away on a rough pitch if you do this a lot
Pulling that length of paracord against the weight of the rope through the drag of the anchor rings is prohibitive. Aka.. you just bounce instead of pulling the rope through. You need something stiffer with a high enough test weight. Even small tech cords are a bitch to pull.
For my pull line I use a 5mm accessory cord, so it bites a lot more than the Dyneema, but I've had good success with a flat overhand to join the two, then clove hitching the rappel rope onto the spine of a large carabiner. The flat overhand only gets loaded when you're pulling the rope, not when you're rappelling (the load is taken by the clove hitch on the carabiner).
I work at a ropes course and we have different features such as a powerpole people get to climb requiring top roping. Instead of leaving our ropes out all the time we use accesory cord and tie a clove hitch about 6 inches up the tail and then tie a series of half hitches down the rope creating a killick hitch. This sucessfully works for swapping the polyester peachord with the 9.5 dynamic rope. I am also an avid canyoneer and have not tried this method for rigging a retrievable rappel but I am pretty confident that it would work using either a knot block or carrabiner block and a killick hitch on the tail of the block strand.
From 20 yrs of canyoneering experience it’s EDK all the way. I’ve only seen a couple comments that stated EDK, but I’m not sure they’re explaining it properly? Apologies if they did and I’m missing it. His overhand needed to be duplicated in reverse, joins different diameters wonderfully for those pull ropes. And also, wouldn’t waste time with the belay up top, just join the ropes and boogie down Love the content man! Big fan 😊
Why not splice an eye in the dyneema big enough to fit your coil (or the bag where the dyneema is stuffed in) through, and then simply girth hitch it through the eye of the figure eight in the rappel rope? Should prevent the dyneema from slipping.
Two concerns for using this in the mountains. One is that the carabiner in the knot will make it out more likely to get snagged on something (tree root, crack in the rocks or flake sticking out, etc.)pulling it down. The second is that a thin string is much more likely to tangle (and this happens in the video): he mentions flaking it in a bag and I imagine that would help. If you (or anyone) have used this technique regularly, I'd be interested to hear how you avoid these two problems. Thanks!
rope bag for the pull cord solves the 2nd problem. You are correct about the carabiner being a potential snag risk, though. One way to mitigate is to step back from the base of the cliff when pulling so you minimize the carabiner from rubbing against the cliff face. In canyoneering, I never use a knot block, but use a carabiner block secured with a constrictor hitch. Many/most use a clove hitch, but they have been known to slip and the constrictor doesn't. I use a 6mm non-dyneema accessory cord and have never had problems.
Use a locking brummel splice in the end of the dyneema, clip it with the biner you have at the quick links. Alternatively, tie your stopper knot and make a tie a prusik with the dyneema eye above the stopper.
1:18 Hey Ryan, wanna mark black rope? Paint on whiteout fer ink pen&paper mistakes I use it on my ropes as a fisherman to mark out five fathom intervals on my ropes, it's water proof, and works atreat
Putting in my vote to test the Gibbs Knot. Ive used this to join two ropes of different diameters with pretty good success. Used it on a 9.5 and the Petzl Pur Line. Would LOVE to see this tested!!!
Suppose we are doing this in an overhang. After we get down safely, when we were retrieving the rope, I guess the locking carabiner we used above would at some point have to do a big fall along with our rope. My questions are, 1 - How do you avoid carabiner falling onto you if you were in a tight spot? 2 - Having achieved part 1, should the carabiner be trusted after that big fall onto rocks?
I did nearly the same thing, using 2mm paracord to extend a 50m to 60m, enabling 30m, single-strand rappels. In the mountaineering community, people always seem to bring a second rope or a much thicker tagline. I didn't understand why, and half expected to run into some issue, but I didn't. I also ended up connecting them with interlocking figure 8s, which worked fine. It's worth noting that the blocking knot at the anchor can be separated from the knot connecting the two ropes.
I think to remember that I have learned to use the Fisherman-knot whenever joining two ropes of different diameter/material. But I think that was more ment for rappelling on a single and half rope. Maybe connecting a 5 or 6mm prusik sling to a climbing rope. But definitely not something so thin. So it was interesting to have different knots tested! Thanks Ryan and blessings from Iraq
The Fisherman has a turn of rope going right around the standing part of the rope, so it's very likely to get caught on any edge when being pulled down. A big advantage of an overhead bend or fig-8 bend for joining the two ropes (even when they're the same size) is that one side of the bend is flat and so it can slide over edges without getting caught.
take a single strand of a bright sheath from an old rope and sew it into your rope at the middle point. a single strand will be enough to stick out visually but will not bind your friction devices. I use this trick while splicing rope to make my markers.
Not for cyclical loading but I'm using timberhitch and back it up towards the end with a halfhitch, like you do while pulling a log. I just have the climbing rope as the log and usually a throw line to pull with. This works for cambium savers in trees. If I want to use top rope but don't want to leave a rope outside in the UV between sessions, use some bricklayers twine and just pull that with the climbing rope and then the next time I can use the twine to pull up the climbing rope (obviously only on your own private walls/trees and not somewhere out in nature).
another good one is a nail knot, were I am it's commonly used with 2.5mm braided "VB" cord (polyester Venetian blind cord), it's got a core so it sits round unlike 2mm accessory cord, and it holds well. It's great if you need to pull through small pullies or shear reduction devices, since you can tie right up to the end. with thicker ropes you can melt a hole through and add a pull loop of thin cord as well. Timber hitch and a row of half hitches works great, but the nail knot doesn't rely on constant tension.
To pull a rope with a thin string you could tie multiple clove hitches with the string around the rope - first one maybe 30 cm / 1ft from the end, one at half that, and one close to the end of the rope. That way you can pull the rope without having to tie a knot in it, so it's less likely to get stuck. Multiple knots to avoid slipping I use this technique when climbing trees - you throw a weight attached to a string over a branch, then pull your rope over the branch using the string, and then use the rope to ascend that tree.
A single clove hitch with a permanently tied overhand stopper on the end of your cord is more than adequate and is what I use for tree work, never had it slip on 10mm+ ropes. I use clove for the ring on my throw bags and also works well for joining my throw cord to 4mm cord monkey fist knots, which I use for throwing when in the tree.
I use dyneema throw lines for pulling climbing ropes into trees. I use a clove hitch a foot or two away from the end of the rope, and then follow it with a few half hitches with one or two at the very tip to keep it from snagging on branches. A clove hitch with dyneema (2-3mm) holds well on climbing rope and I have locked off the tail of the clove hitch with a bight over handed around the standing part to keep it from loosening if cyclically loaded at times. For this scenario, my go to would have been the clove hitch, locked off with a slipped over hand around the standing part, and double overhand stopper knot in the climbing rope. The slipped tie off makes it much easier to get undone too 😁
A spliced eye would definitely be the cleanest and most secure option. As an arborist, I've used a skinny throwline, girth or clove hitched around the loop from knot-block then backed up with a bowline integrated back into pull strand. A kind of hybrid-knot #cloveline?
Tree climbers pull ropes using even smaller dyneema - eg 1.7mm which doubles as a "throw-line", or pilot line which is initially used to pull the climb line into place. You know who has good knots for small dyneema? People who fish! Favorite knot for tiny dyneema is a (slippery) clinch knot. Super fast and easy - just put an eye onto the rope using an alpine butterfly or whatever, then tie the dyneema on using a clinch knot. Never fails, easy to untie if you leave the tail out and tie the slippery version.
I just spliced an eye to a fiddlestick on 7/64” amsteel and it works wonderfully, and if you need force a munter to the belay loop is quite effective. Also I can second using a bag, just flake it in a produce bag and roll and tie it.
I always thread a flavorless dental floss in the mid of the rope. Any colour rope. Pass through any safety/belay/rappel device and is highly visible. In my 42 years climbing it sure helped me on a couple of tired rappels that could cause trouble otherwise. Oh BTW I love the Beal Escaper. Safe (scary but safe) believe me and lighter than a pull rope. Does not work in situations where a pull rope may marginally work (lots of drag) but it is rare.
You can mark the middle of a black rope with some white thread stitched through it. The rigging system you used is a variation of cord technique rigging that has been used in cave exploration since at least the 1980s. It was used to leave a thin cord at each pitch so a single rope could be used to explore the whole cave. The usual way was to sew a cord into one end of the rope (half a metre or so long) to tie the cord to. At the other end a double fisherman's stopper knot was tied and it was usually rigged through a stitch plate at the anchor. That way the rope could be recovered at the bottom of each abseil and a doubled cord left in its place. This allowed the rope to be replaced from the bottom on the way back to exit the cave.
I have tried that, it worked for years... then one day as my bud was ascending with camp solo2s, an ascender got stuck in the thread, and it took her 5 minutes to free it. Probably a bizarre situation.
@@harlanstockman5703 OK, at least one European manufacturer I know of (but can't remember which one) marks their ropes like that, but tying them in a way that the ends of the threads are exposed like about 5 - 6mm so they can be easily seen but there are no loops to catch on anything.
@@harlanstockman5703 Just checked, years ago I wrote the vertical rope training manual for IAGA and included some photos of rope markings, some manufacturers, particularly of canyoning ropes, change the colour of the rope at the halfway mark, but Metolius Monster Marker uses bright pink and orange threads woven into the rope to mark the centre. There was bit of discussion about centre markings when there was an accident where someone rigged their rope doubled through the anchor and started abseiling down. Unfortunately there had been some damage to the rope and to fix it someone had seen it was only a few metres from the end so jut cut it off and shortened the rope. You can guess what happened when the person abseiled from the double rope onto the single longer end...
@@mirandahotspring4019 i just saw a youtube video on the method that just leaves frayed ends exposed. Clever idea, you could even feel them in the dark. Thanks.
I think I'm going to be with the group that says splice and small eye the end. Then you can just pass your primary through it tie a double overhand and you'll be all set. although I do have a sheet bend that I don't think you've probably seen before that I'll send you a picture of.
I've always used a double sheet bend for this, though with 6mm nylon pull cord not 2.5mm dyneema. When making the double loop with the pull cord, you can cross the second loop under the first one and this is supposed to help with slipping. Another thing is tying off the running end of the pull cord, just an overhand around the standing end should help at least a little. I've put quite a bit of force on this setup while trying to unstick a rope and the knot was fine.
For any future testing videos, I'd love to see how a Simple Simon Under (and maybe double) bend would perform here. My understanding is that it is a more secure option for mixed diameter ropes than the sheet bend.
4:24 To tie two ropes of differing diameters together, I have always used two double fisherman's knots. One each, on one end of each rope, gripping the other rope end. When done correctly, you pull both ropes and the knots slide together and "jam" against each other. Still, 9 vs 2.5mm diameter is a huge difference - I'd have to test it before I trust it. 9:02 I don't trust it.
In answer to your question at 1:18 I found a solution to the black rope centermark problem without using paint or markers. Wove in a bright embroidery floss to the sheath at the middle mark. It's held up great even after a couple of outdoor seasons. it's not permanently affixed to the sheath either. Here's my video on it: ruclips.net/video/ZGb4ZNWTK3s/видео.html
I'd tie a friction hitch with extra wraps (probably an icicle hitch with 8 or 9 wraps) using the small rope, gripping the large rope. Then probably secure the large rope around the small using a double overhand, like half of the double fisherman's bend you had, that'd keep the end from flapping around in the breeze. It'd certainly be interesting to see icicle hitches with different numbers of wraps pull tested.
An essentially similar method of rappelling with short ropes has been in use by alpinists for years, except it is done without the specialized pull-cord. Instead you connect a bunch of your slings and cordalettes together on the pull side of the rope. I think the tool to import from canyoneering would be the stone-hitch knot block. I am debating about messing with a toggle in the mountains also. As far as tying your tiny dyneema string to your large rope, I think there are several options. I would be interested to see how bad a zepplin bend would be, and also a flemish bend. Possibly a flemish bend with the tail of the skinny string backed up with a double overhand. Others have commented about splicing the dyneema, and I think a spliced loop in the dyneema and then tie your rope through with a figure-8 like you did would be a decent option.
Oh, and there is a simpler and safer way to set rope length in this context. Just lower the first person. The whole deal of having them rappel, and then lowering them, is something canyoneers do because the want to rappel off the end of the rope. Climbers don't want to rappel of the end, so you can just tie the first person in, lower until they are at the right spot, rig a knot block or reapschnear, rappel down until you find the other end of the rope, and then tie stuff onto the end until you have enough.
@leveller4 sometimes they end the rappel in flowing water, where being attached to a rope could pull them under. They also want to avoid have rope in moving water that someone could get tangled up in.
Awesome video! and i need your help! I have a 30 mts 9.5 triple homologated and a 30 mts 7.5 mm impermeab6rope. The idea is to carry both on crest climbing using the 9.5 mm as a secure and when we have to rapel 30 mts use both of the ropes, with the 7.5 mm not like a recovery but actually rappel from both. It would be awesome if you test this with a double fisherman and a double eight (this one a use a lot). I prefer in this way because is less like that the rope or the carabiner get jammed in rocks. Love tour channel, hope you are recovering, lots of love for you all ppl working there
Used such a Reepschnur on the free rappel off the Grand Teton, in 1974. But, I had 6mm perlon, and would use it today over any Dyneema, as it knotted fine, the more important factor by far in this usage. I ran my single 11mm rope thru an SMC ring, then thru the rap ring anchor, then tied it to my ring; the 6mm then tied to my ring, so the ring and knot guaranteed no way it could pull through. I rapped, feeding out my 6mm, and at the bottom, pulled it. The ring slid down the rope fine, bringing the 11mm end with it, perhaps smoother than clipping a full carabiner would have done.
I often carry a 50 foot length of 4mm cord for just this reason. (I mostly rappel in canyons these days.) Sometimes the beta is wrong or anchors get moved. It weighs about 6oz and has come in handy!
There's a fishing knot called an albright which might be a really great solution here, it should hold better than most of the arborist knots mentioned, and its very low profile. My thinking is that with low friction line, you just need more wraps for more friction.
Dig it. I do similar to retrieve rope end from trees but have it flaked in a bag and a pre spliced tight eye to clip. Or for throwlines attach it with a clove, girth, or constrictor a few feet up and follow with a couple half hitches to the end of the tail. Arb stuff
Oh also, for pulling the thin line. A good technique is to tie a munter on the biner so you can easily capture progress. If it slips you can twist the carabiner 1-3 times.
I have started using the Reever Knot for most of non permanent joining now a days. So maybe give that one a go! It would be interesting how it reacts with such widely different diameter!
Id like to see that too. I love the zeppelin bend- although doubt it would be useful in ropes with suck extreme size differences. I think it’s more for scenarios with a 9mm and a 13mm kind of size differences, not 2.3mm and 10mm I think- but I’m curious!
I sent him a bunch of knots 2 years ago, including Zeppelin bends. Video title is "Break Testing Knots - Zeppelin & Figure 8 & Alpine Butterfly & Reever & Bowline & Double Fisherman". I don't think it'd work well for Dyneema, and it would be even worse for a diameter difference this big. You really want to swap how you think about knots when it gets this big, you're no longer joining two ropes but rather joining one rope to pull on a larger diameter object, so a good hitch works better than a bend.
If you are using a carabiner to back up the jam knot, just attach the tag line to the carabiner using any loop. Probably a bowline for nylon/polyester and a double bowline for dyneema. Also you can thread the tag line though the second side of your belay device to stop it from twisting around your main line.
First- watching this after news of your stroke. Very sorry to hear of the health issues, hopefully things don't worsen! In the same vein as this videos topic, in place of dyneema, teufelberger makes a product they call "Tech-cord" in both 3mm and 5mm diameters. It is a technora core, with a woven polyester sheath. Can you test the smaller diameter version and compare/contrast its performance in different knot strength/use with different friction devices for emergency egress use (e.g. munter and super-munter with a carabiner). Dyneema "works" here, but the polyester sheath may make the tech-cord work much better. Thanks much!
I used some thick bright red thread on my 70 meter static line - I just used a needle and did a few loops and cut them, now there are threads sticking out that are easy enough to see.
If you are using dynema, forget trying to use knots and just add a nice big eye splice. The large eye would give you the ability to pass the rest of the dynema through the eye, especially if you have it coiled into a bag. What would work better is buying an arborist throw line as it is designed to be able to use knots that don't slip and can also very easily be tied to larger diameter ropes. I use a throwline made by Stein that's quite thin, very light, but also pretty strong. It can also be purchased in really long lengths 😊
I use oral b glide dental floss to mark my midpoint on dark ropes. I've heard of people passing floss through their rope, but I just wrap mine a bunch of times, and pass the ends under a few of the loops and pull them tight. It works great to see the midpoint, is cheap to replace, and doesn't hang up on better devices.
Maybe back the sheet bend up by putting a triple overhand ("half a triple fisherman's") on the dyneema tail? Or just try a triple scaffold knot with the dyneema through an 8 on the rope?
I've been following you guys for a while and it's really awesome what you're doing with all the testing. I also recommend your channel for my students who are keen to look deeper into things. I like you always play safe and giving good example. Like in this video, always check your rig before unclipping your tether. I have just one question now: any reason for not using a third hand during rappel?
Shh, he distracted you with something else to judge them by at the start, nevermind the lack of third hand! (Also, it's acknowledged if not fully excused at 9:40)
5:00 I'd hitch the small rope around an end bend in the big rope, just four consecutive loops to form a friction hitch, and put the small rope through the bend in the fat one first. Like a seaman. EDIT: in tree work I do this sort of thing all the time, use a short rope and retrieve it after rapelling.
I second this as an arborist. This will give you the lowest profile to avoid getting those big knots stuck. I pull ropes through tight branch unions all the time. Use a clove or two about 8 inches down the rope and then a simple series of half hitches to the end. Also tie a simple double fisherman in the end of the dyneema so that it won't be able to slip through the clove.
Hey I do that with the sling and belay loop! everyone always looks but it doesn't rub through and i dont leave it cinched down all the time so, im chillin!
Thanks for the fascinating content -as always. In regards to how to mark the middle of a black rope; I've seen suggestions that you could sow a marker at the mid-point only through the sheath and would love to see that break-tested!
It's pretty easy to splice an eye into small amsteel, and for me that's always worked better than a knot.. For tiny stuff like that I have a piece of coat hanger wire on which I sanded the ends round. Tape the end of the wire to the end of the amsteel, use it as a fid to bury a long tail for a simple eye splice. Not a bad idea to put some stitches through it so it can't move around when unloaded. To attach it to a rope, just tie the rope through the spliced eye with whatever loop knot you like, e.g. fig8.
I'd try a "racking bend". Basically form a bight in the thick rope, insert the thin rope at the bottom and weave upwards in figures of eight as much as necessary. Finish with a half hitch or two.
I used to work at a place where you would take a leap of faith at the end of a high ropes course. At the end of the day so that we didn't have any dynamic ropes hanging up in the sun we would pull them through the pulley with a 'mouse line's we would attach the mouse line with a clove hitch on the end of the rope with a few half hitches above it. I guess to make it work for this system you could just tie a stopper at the quick links and then your clove and half hitches after that.
I love watching your stuff on your website, but I have a hard time finding the most recent stuff there, a sort by date option would be super good enough to fix this.
For the same reasons we use a flat overhand to join ropes, it’s nice to use an overhand on a bight when rigging a reepschnur. For joining ropes of dissimilar diameter I like the Gibbs bend or half gibbs. Although I’ve never tied ropes so wildly different in diameter.
Also I'm curious to see what happens to a rope pull / drop testing a knot block. I used one to climb a bit the other day trs but I'm pretty sure falling on it is a nogo.
How about testing the following: Tie a permanent loop in the dyneema that the dyneema coil can pass through. And for that permanent knot ... tie an overhand then a finger width away tie another overhand knot then a further finger width away tie a third overhand knot. And of course test with 1, 2, and 3 knots to give a graph of strength increase. And if 3 no good try 4. Please note I am suggesting separate overhand knots, each independent in their own right rather than like a double overhand tied as one knot by wrapping round twice. That could work too, but hard to inspect! Hope helps.
Our text book for knots in Croatia says you should always use a TRIPLE fisherman's knot when tying dyneema. So onw rotation per knot more than a double fisherman's.
half gibbs offset bend, but I also haven't done it with a dyneema pull cord so watching your EDK fail I'm not sure if a half gibbs would have pulled out or not. I also might have used an actual Gibbs there because the pull cord is so small the knot might be too small to block with a half gibbs. (If whatever you look it up on doesn't say, the dyneema would be the double wrapped cord in a half gibbs)
I've used a half Gibbs with a Petzl Pur Line which is HMPE, but admittedly thicker (6mm). The half Gibbs worked fine and is still small enough to not add a lot of additional risk to getting the rope stuck on the pull.
Please test: 1) the clove hitch plus half hitches all the arborists are talking about, and 2) overhand on a bite in tagline girth hitched to rappel rope with a figure eight stopper knot in the rappel rope below the girth hitch.
I was thinking of making interlocking loops by doing a barrel knot in each end of the rope. I see you did the same thing with a double 8. Which is better for the rope? I'm guessing the double 8.
1:19 Would be interesting to have you test a homemade way, but I've seen metolius climbing ropes where they have some colored thread at the halfway mark. Wonder if there is any strength risk in a climber putting some thread on a needle and poking it through the rope a few times....
I think I would try the double sheet bend and then use the tail of the dyneme to tie two half hitches. In my head it seems strong enough and low profile.
A friend of mine rappels with one rope and uses a device to retrieve the rope, looks like a nest of ropes or something. You put the end of your rappel rope in it like a sheath or something. And when you pull several times just like you did at 4:35 then the device comes off and you can retrieve the rope. I don't know how the device is called though or maybe it was homemade with dasy chains. I don't know.
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3:59 , word to the wise for anyone that plans on bringing dyneema pullcord, if at all possible never ever ever throw a bundle of dyneema pullcord down the rappel. That stuff is infamous for turning into the worst knotted, tangled, gordian knot you've ever seen. On our first outing when it was still a fairly new concept, I tossed it down and it did just that. I spent 30min on rappel trying to untangle it to no avail. Keep it with you, or what us canyoneers have found works best, get a small pullcord bag to keep it in. A small chalk bucket, or anything with an opening that can be cinched shut, works very well.
I use it on a very regular basis for throwline for treework and understand what you mean. It takes intuition, patience and finesse. Just hope it wasn’t pulled tight while in a big mess of a knot lol. I keep mine stored in a pop up throw cube and it stores well like that and rarely tangles
figure 8 the dyneema (similar to how you would store 550). Makes tossing it down clean and tangle free.
@@TehBloodyWanka Daisychain
This video makes me realize how good life is. What a great feeling it is to be up in the mountains.
Arborist trick coming in: Two different size ropes tied together, use your smaller rope( blue in video) to tie a clove hitch at least 8 in up your bigger rope (Black in video). With the remaining 8in of black tie half hitches with blue rope along every 2 in till you run off the tail.
This keeps the rope in line with out bends and moves in the direction of the pull. It greatly lowers your chance of getting caught as its widest point is only slight thicker then the diameter of the black rope. I doesnt get caught in trees and is we have really reefed on it with any issues.
I would love to know if there is slippage and if the cord is weaker then the knot. (testing opportunity wink wink)
Also thanks for making great content as always and showing faults when they happen its makes the rest of us average humans feel like we still have an idea what we are doing even when we make mistakes.
I come from professional canyoning so we use this all the time. When combining two different ropes, we normaly use a simple flat overhand and then a second flat overhand right behind to stop the knot from moving. Works perfekt.
My understanding is that this is how petzl recommends connecting their 6mm purline to normal climbing ropes
I've used this method multiple times and even with a couple of particularly sticky rope pulls 2 while running canyons.
Not a pro, but my canyoneering experience and research backs the flat overhand... Generally a pull cord is thicker than the shoe lace used in this video🤣 6mm still much lighter than a second climbing rope and not awful to pull. carabiner block we use is clove on a locker.
@@robertito_dobbs
Yeah the 6mm works perfekt. Very light (50m are aprox. 1kg), but in an emergence, say you loose your main rope, you can still use it for abseiling to the next emergency exit.
Would double flat overhand work with like 3mm or 4mm cord? It’s slipping with the dyneema here but I want the best of both worlds…
As a professional tree climber/arborist I constantly connect thin throwline to my climbing rope to pull the rope through the tree. The throw line is not made from dyneema but still pretty slippery because its waxed.
We use a clove hitch and 2-4 half hitches to connect the throwline to the rope
Most throwline like dynaglide, zing it etc. is dyneema/HMWPE though. Same deal though, just a bunch of half hitches and it'll hold.
I second that!
apparently it is somewhat common to pile hitch the throw line to the rope (+a bunch of half hitches) among those climbers who keep a loop of some kind in the end of their throwline to girth hitch the throwball on... at that point it seems that anything will work with a bunch of half hitches, the choice boils down to what you can tie/untie easily in line of such tiny diameter
same here, i use three clove hitches though
Thats what we call reepschnur
Yup. Kind of hilarious to see you reinvent what us tree people do a bunch of times every day. And the big reason is that literally anything else snags and tangles.
For the middle of ropes you can thread a piece of heavy duty sewing machine thread. I just went over and under a few strands in the sheath in a spiral pattern with a normal sewing needle. Pick any color you like! It takes a little time to install but it lasted me a full season of climbing and then some. Also if you're paying attention you'll feel it too, which can be nice in low light settings.
Yes same here. Used to even do it all 10m. Not only the middle, using different coding. I did not use thread, but just some stuff pulled from other old climbing materials sheath, so it has the same diameter and look..
For some work I did I needed to mark soft material in all kinds of colors; The go-to pen for that was silver. Didn´t come across a color that wouldn´t show up on. So maybe you can mark the middle of your rope with some silver Sharpie,too.
Regarding the knot, I´d expect an Albright knot or a Nail knot to hold well; They work for fishing, so I wouldn´t see why they shouldn´t work for climbing.
Edit: A Marlspike hitch in with the spine of a carabiner as handle would give you a good grip on the pull cord. I guess you could also clip a sling to the carabiner and loop it around your chest/ over your foot if for some reason you really wanted to get some weight on it.
sharpie uses toxic solvents and is highly hazardous to the environment. That's the price you pay for ink that sticks on anything. Better you don't use it and find a better solution.
Hey, we were the folks who said hi at the lake on our way up to do the other ridge! Sounds like the South Ridge parties had more fun; we ended up bailing halfway through the second pitch. If our cordellete is still up there, you're welcome to keep it 😅
I always have a spliced eyelet in one end of the dyneema, and use a 3/16 (0.7 oz) quicklink only if needed. I have also just included the dyneema all the way in a bfk. My pull tests occasionally had the dyneema break at 1100 lbs, if it crosses itself. Amsteel can get stuck in small cracks, so i spool the amsteel out of a small bag attached to my chest. Best oprion is to put the spliced eyelet over the rope in the middle of th bfk, where the bfk gets its bulk from the main rope (say two triple overhands).
Im curious what kind of strenght you lose when splicing an eyelet into amsteel
@@For--nop none, if done correctly. The quoted strength of amsteel is for breaking between two class 2 bury eye splices.
Knot blocks are tricky if you are using an established quicklink-- sometimes people leave huge links. I always have an extra 3/16" link to put on the webbing if the existing link is huge -- pass the rope through both links. Also try ways to use a biner block even with a tag line.
We use this same concept in arborist settings for retrievable canopy anchors. In some cases using throwline (very thin dynema) or another climbing line for retrieval
Good video. I tie 1.5mm dyneema/nylon cords to big ropes often for tree work (throw balls to set anchors, string to leave out to preserve anchor points).
What works for me, is to clove hitch onto the bigger rope, with an overhand stopper on the cord, so that the clove doesn't need any tail. This has the advantage that it will easily go through tight unions in a tree without snagging, or through a pulley, and is very quick to tie and loosen.
Uncoiling the amsteel on rappel is always the crux. I find using a light plastic "line winder" used for spooling kiteboarding lines works perfectly. I also put a fixed eye in the end of my amsteel that I can just run the climbing rope through for a quick bowline.
Am I missing something here?….since the small cord is non-weight bearing, is there any reason to NOT use something cheap and readily available (I.e. para cord) rather than expensive, slippery dyneema?!
Idk I just sat down
Dyneema is not expensive in these diameters, it's very light, and 3 kN is already much more than even legit Paracord can take.
@ Not expensive? A quick search shows 200’ of 2.5 or 3mm dyneema at approximately $120-$150….200’ of para cord is $16. While I’m in no way a fan of compromising safety in favor of saving a buck, using a cord as purely a retrieval line (it will NEVER be responsible for keeping a climber safe) seems like a great place to avoid overkill and have some funds left over for safety gear that really matters. You wouldn’t or couldn’t rap on thin little dyneema in a pinch, nor would you want to try descending on para cord, so, to my way of thinking, the extra strength of dyneema is wasted. Convince me otherwise! I’m open to additional thoughts!
I have no idea. I'd probably use Paracord, but slippery dynema would be less likely to get snagged and desheathed or abraded away on a rough pitch if you do this a lot
Pulling that length of paracord against the weight of the rope through the drag of the anchor rings is prohibitive. Aka.. you just bounce instead of pulling the rope through. You need something stiffer with a high enough test weight. Even small tech cords are a bitch to pull.
If you're already planning to do this with dyneema, why not just splice an eye beforehand?
For my pull line I use a 5mm accessory cord, so it bites a lot more than the Dyneema, but I've had good success with a flat overhand to join the two, then clove hitching the rappel rope onto the spine of a large carabiner. The flat overhand only gets loaded when you're pulling the rope, not when you're rappelling (the load is taken by the clove hitch on the carabiner).
I work at a ropes course and we have different features such as a powerpole people get to climb requiring top roping. Instead of leaving our ropes out all the time we use accesory cord and tie a clove hitch about 6 inches up the tail and then tie a series of half hitches down the rope creating a killick hitch. This sucessfully works for swapping the polyester peachord with the 9.5 dynamic rope. I am also an avid canyoneer and have not tried this method for rigging a retrievable rappel but I am pretty confident that it would work using either a knot block or carrabiner block and a killick hitch on the tail of the block strand.
From 20 yrs of canyoneering experience it’s EDK all the way.
I’ve only seen a couple comments that stated EDK, but I’m not sure they’re explaining it properly? Apologies if they did and I’m missing it.
His overhand needed to be duplicated in reverse, joins different diameters wonderfully for those pull ropes.
And also, wouldn’t waste time with the belay up top, just join the ropes and boogie down
Love the content man! Big fan 😊
Why not splice an eye in the dyneema big enough to fit your coil (or the bag where the dyneema is stuffed in) through, and then simply girth hitch it through the eye of the figure eight in the rappel rope? Should prevent the dyneema from slipping.
Eye splice on the dyneema was also my first thought. I don't think the girth hitch is needed. Just put it through the loop of your favorite bight.
Or just clip the eye into the carabiner used as the blocker.
@@barongerhardtoh of course! Kind of stupid not to just think of that, now it seems so obvious 😅
You had me at GIRTH
Eye splice on the dyneema, figure eight on the rope? Doing a figure eight around a piece that is already rigged is, after all, basic toolkit.
Great job with the new store!
Two concerns for using this in the mountains. One is that the carabiner in the knot will make it out more likely to get snagged on something (tree root, crack in the rocks or flake sticking out, etc.)pulling it down. The second is that a thin string is much more likely to tangle (and this happens in the video): he mentions flaking it in a bag and I imagine that would help. If you (or anyone) have used this technique regularly, I'd be interested to hear how you avoid these two problems. Thanks!
rope bag for the pull cord solves the 2nd problem. You are correct about the carabiner being a potential snag risk, though. One way to mitigate is to step back from the base of the cliff when pulling so you minimize the carabiner from rubbing against the cliff face. In canyoneering, I never use a knot block, but use a carabiner block secured with a constrictor hitch. Many/most use a clove hitch, but they have been known to slip and the constrictor doesn't. I use a 6mm non-dyneema accessory cord and have never had problems.
Many thanks. I'll be interested to try the karabiner with a constrictor hitch!
Use a locking brummel splice in the end of the dyneema, clip it with the biner you have at the quick links. Alternatively, tie your stopper knot and make a tie a prusik with the dyneema eye above the stopper.
1:18 Hey Ryan, wanna mark black rope?
Paint on whiteout fer ink pen&paper mistakes
I use it on my ropes as a fisherman to mark out five fathom intervals on my ropes, it's water proof, and works atreat
Putting in my vote to test the Gibbs Knot. Ive used this to join two ropes of different diameters with pretty good success. Used it on a 9.5 and the Petzl Pur Line. Would LOVE to see this tested!!!
Yes ! Gibbbs and half gibbs
Learned about Gibbs knot in Andy Kirkpatrick book ‘Down’. I would love to see Gibbs and half Gibbs tested!
Suppose we are doing this in an overhang. After we get down safely, when we were retrieving the rope, I guess the locking carabiner we used above would at some point have to do a big fall along with our rope. My questions are, 1 - How do you avoid carabiner falling onto you if you were in a tight spot? 2 - Having achieved part 1, should the carabiner be trusted after that big fall onto rocks?
It’s actually not a problem. The carabiner arrives in your hand pretty much the moment the rope falls from above
Hope you are better Ryan. Gave me a big ass scare with that one video about your health :( Thanks for the post!
I did nearly the same thing, using 2mm paracord to extend a 50m to 60m, enabling 30m, single-strand rappels. In the mountaineering community, people always seem to bring a second rope or a much thicker tagline. I didn't understand why, and half expected to run into some issue, but I didn't. I also ended up connecting them with interlocking figure 8s, which worked fine. It's worth noting that the blocking knot at the anchor can be separated from the knot connecting the two ropes.
I think to remember that I have learned to use the Fisherman-knot whenever joining two ropes of different diameter/material. But I think that was more ment for rappelling on a single and half rope. Maybe connecting a 5 or 6mm prusik sling to a climbing rope. But definitely not something so thin. So it was interesting to have different knots tested! Thanks Ryan and blessings from Iraq
The Fisherman has a turn of rope going right around the standing part of the rope, so it's very likely to get caught on any edge when being pulled down. A big advantage of an overhead bend or fig-8 bend for joining the two ropes (even when they're the same size) is that one side of the bend is flat and so it can slide over edges without getting caught.
Single double and triple fischer might be cool to explore. Great video.
take a single strand of a bright sheath from an old rope and sew it into your rope at the middle point. a single strand will be enough to stick out visually but will not bind your friction devices. I use this trick while splicing rope to make my markers.
You could try a pile hitch back up with two half hitches further towards the end of the rope, check out how arborists send up ropes with throw line
A friend sewed some dental floss through the middle of a dark rope to mark the middle. Worked pretty well
As been stated. Arborist trick. Clove hitch fallowed by two have hitches a few inches apart. Used all the time with throw ball line.
St work I'm regularely marking black fabric with white edding. Once it's dryed it has got quite good visibility and stays on the fabric.
Hello you can add more wraps on the sheet bend for the thinner rope, 3-4-5-6 or more. Keep up the great stuff.
A pile hitch has worked great for me. I back it up with a couple of halfs but it works just fine for putting line in a tree,
Not for cyclical loading but I'm using timberhitch and back it up towards the end with a halfhitch, like you do while pulling a log.
I just have the climbing rope as the log and usually a throw line to pull with.
This works for cambium savers in trees.
If I want to use top rope but don't want to leave a rope outside in the UV between sessions, use some bricklayers twine and just pull that with the climbing rope and then the next time I can use the twine to pull up the climbing rope (obviously only on your own private walls/trees and not somewhere out in nature).
another good one is a nail knot, were I am it's commonly used with 2.5mm braided "VB" cord (polyester Venetian blind cord), it's got a core so it sits round unlike 2mm accessory cord, and it holds well. It's great if you need to pull through small pullies or shear reduction devices, since you can tie right up to the end. with thicker ropes you can melt a hole through and add a pull loop of thin cord as well. Timber hitch and a row of half hitches works great, but the nail knot doesn't rely on constant tension.
Nail knot looks pretty, will try it out@@KarltheKrazyone
Hi HowNot2 if you want to mark your black rope, you can but Silver metallic sharpies etc. Perfect for blacks!!! Hope this helps👍😀
To pull a rope with a thin string you could tie multiple clove hitches with the string around the rope - first one maybe 30 cm / 1ft from the end, one at half that, and one close to the end of the rope.
That way you can pull the rope without having to tie a knot in it, so it's less likely to get stuck. Multiple knots to avoid slipping
I use this technique when climbing trees - you throw a weight attached to a string over a branch, then pull your rope over the branch using the string, and then use the rope to ascend that tree.
I was thinking of that too. Pretty common in tree climbing when setting your climbing rope with a throw line.
A single clove hitch with a permanently tied overhand stopper on the end of your cord is more than adequate and is what I use for tree work, never had it slip on 10mm+ ropes. I use clove for the ring on my throw bags and also works well for joining my throw cord to 4mm cord monkey fist knots, which I use for throwing when in the tree.
I use dyneema throw lines for pulling climbing ropes into trees. I use a clove hitch a foot or two away from the end of the rope, and then follow it with a few half hitches with one or two at the very tip to keep it from snagging on branches.
A clove hitch with dyneema (2-3mm) holds well on climbing rope and I have locked off the tail of the clove hitch with a bight over handed around the standing part to keep it from loosening if cyclically loaded at times.
For this scenario, my go to would have been the clove hitch, locked off with a slipped over hand around the standing part, and double overhand stopper knot in the climbing rope.
The slipped tie off makes it much easier to get undone too 😁
I wasn't familiar with the thin dyneema cord. Keep the videos coming! Greetings from Canada!
I watch these videos and I have no desire to rock climb. My palms are sweaty watching them and I'm not even afraid of heights.
A spliced eye would definitely be the cleanest and most secure option. As an arborist, I've used a skinny throwline, girth or clove hitched around the loop from knot-block then backed up with a bowline integrated back into pull strand. A kind of hybrid-knot #cloveline?
Tree climbers pull ropes using even smaller dyneema - eg 1.7mm which doubles as a "throw-line", or pilot line which is initially used to pull the climb line into place.
You know who has good knots for small dyneema? People who fish! Favorite knot for tiny dyneema is a (slippery) clinch knot. Super fast and easy - just put an eye onto the rope using an alpine butterfly or whatever, then tie the dyneema on using a clinch knot. Never fails, easy to untie if you leave the tail out and tie the slippery version.
I just spliced an eye to a fiddlestick on 7/64” amsteel and it works wonderfully, and if you need force a munter to the belay loop is quite effective. Also I can second using a bag, just flake it in a produce bag and roll and tie it.
I always thread a flavorless dental floss in the mid of the rope. Any colour rope. Pass through any safety/belay/rappel device and is highly visible. In my 42 years climbing it sure helped me on a couple of tired rappels that could cause trouble otherwise. Oh BTW I love the Beal Escaper. Safe (scary but safe) believe me and lighter than a pull rope. Does not work in situations where a pull rope may marginally work (lots of drag) but it is rare.
You can mark the middle of a black rope with some white thread stitched through it. The rigging system you used is a variation of cord technique rigging that has been used in cave exploration since at least the 1980s. It was used to leave a thin cord at each pitch so a single rope could be used to explore the whole cave. The usual way was to sew a cord into one end of the rope (half a metre or so long) to tie the cord to. At the other end a double fisherman's stopper knot was tied and it was usually rigged through a stitch plate at the anchor. That way the rope could be recovered at the bottom of each abseil and a doubled cord left in its place. This allowed the rope to be replaced from the bottom on the way back to exit the cave.
I have tried that, it worked for years... then one day as my bud was ascending with camp solo2s, an ascender got stuck in the thread, and it took her 5 minutes to free it. Probably a bizarre situation.
@@harlanstockman5703 OK, at least one European manufacturer I know of (but can't remember which one) marks their ropes like that, but tying them in a way that the ends of the threads are exposed like about 5 - 6mm so they can be easily seen but there are no loops to catch on anything.
@@harlanstockman5703 Just checked, years ago I wrote the vertical rope training manual for IAGA and included some photos of rope markings, some manufacturers, particularly of canyoning ropes, change the colour of the rope at the halfway mark, but Metolius Monster Marker uses bright pink and orange threads woven into the rope to mark the centre.
There was bit of discussion about centre markings when there was an accident where someone rigged their rope doubled through the anchor and started abseiling down. Unfortunately there had been some damage to the rope and to fix it someone had seen it was only a few metres from the end so jut cut it off and shortened the rope.
You can guess what happened when the person abseiled from the double rope onto the single longer end...
@@mirandahotspring4019 i just saw a youtube video on the method that just leaves frayed ends exposed. Clever idea, you could even feel them in the dark. Thanks.
I think I'm going to be with the group that says splice and small eye the end. Then you can just pass your primary through it tie a double overhand and you'll be all set. although I do have a sheet bend that I don't think you've probably seen before that I'll send you a picture of.
I've always used a double sheet bend for this, though with 6mm nylon pull cord not 2.5mm dyneema. When making the double loop with the pull cord, you can cross the second loop under the first one and this is supposed to help with slipping. Another thing is tying off the running end of the pull cord, just an overhand around the standing end should help at least a little. I've put quite a bit of force on this setup while trying to unstick a rope and the knot was fine.
For any future testing videos, I'd love to see how a Simple Simon Under (and maybe double) bend would perform here. My understanding is that it is a more secure option for mixed diameter ropes than the sheet bend.
4:24 To tie two ropes of differing diameters together, I have always used two double fisherman's knots. One each, on one end of each rope, gripping the other rope end. When done correctly, you pull both ropes and the knots slide together and "jam" against each other. Still, 9 vs 2.5mm diameter is a huge difference - I'd have to test it before I trust it.
9:02 I don't trust it.
In answer to your question at 1:18 I found a solution to the black rope centermark problem without using paint or markers. Wove in a bright embroidery floss to the sheath at the middle mark. It's held up great even after a couple of outdoor seasons. it's not permanently affixed to the sheath either. Here's my video on it: ruclips.net/video/ZGb4ZNWTK3s/видео.html
I'd tie a friction hitch with extra wraps (probably an icicle hitch with 8 or 9 wraps) using the small rope, gripping the large rope. Then probably secure the large rope around the small using a double overhand, like half of the double fisherman's bend you had, that'd keep the end from flapping around in the breeze. It'd certainly be interesting to see icicle hitches with different numbers of wraps pull tested.
Thought icicle first, too. But it is meant to tighten around a rigid body.
An essentially similar method of rappelling with short ropes has been in use by alpinists for years, except it is done without the specialized pull-cord. Instead you connect a bunch of your slings and cordalettes together on the pull side of the rope. I think the tool to import from canyoneering would be the stone-hitch knot block. I am debating about messing with a toggle in the mountains also.
As far as tying your tiny dyneema string to your large rope, I think there are several options. I would be interested to see how bad a zepplin bend would be, and also a flemish bend. Possibly a flemish bend with the tail of the skinny string backed up with a double overhand. Others have commented about splicing the dyneema, and I think a spliced loop in the dyneema and then tie your rope through with a figure-8 like you did would be a decent option.
Oh, and there is a simpler and safer way to set rope length in this context. Just lower the first person. The whole deal of having them rappel, and then lowering them, is something canyoneers do because the want to rappel off the end of the rope. Climbers don't want to rappel of the end, so you can just tie the first person in, lower until they are at the right spot, rig a knot block or reapschnear, rappel down until you find the other end of the rope, and then tie stuff onto the end until you have enough.
Why do canyoneers want to rappel off the ends of their rope?
@leveller4 sometimes they end the rappel in flowing water, where being attached to a rope could pull them under. They also want to avoid have rope in moving water that someone could get tangled up in.
@@mountainmandoug so basically they already know that the rope is long enough?
@leveller4 yes, it's actually that there ropes are longer than they want them to be.
In that situation I'd probably just do soething silly like two backed-up bowlines! great video
Awesome video! and i need your help!
I have a 30 mts 9.5 triple homologated and a 30 mts 7.5 mm impermeab6rope. The idea is to carry both on crest climbing using the 9.5 mm as a secure and when we have to rapel 30 mts use both of the ropes, with the 7.5 mm not like a recovery but actually rappel from both. It would be awesome if you test this with a double fisherman and a double eight (this one a use a lot). I prefer in this way because is less like that the rope or the carabiner get jammed in rocks.
Love tour channel, hope you are recovering, lots of love for you all ppl working there
ps. This plant 2 question. is the knot strong enough? can we rapel with a reverso using 2 different sized ropes?
Used such a Reepschnur on the free rappel off the Grand Teton, in 1974. But, I had 6mm perlon, and would use it today over any Dyneema, as it knotted fine, the more important factor by far in this usage. I ran my single 11mm rope thru an SMC ring, then thru the rap ring anchor, then tied it to my ring; the 6mm then tied to my ring, so the ring and knot guaranteed no way it could pull through. I rapped, feeding out my 6mm, and at the bottom, pulled it. The ring slid down the rope fine, bringing the 11mm end with it, perhaps smoother than clipping a full carabiner would have done.
I often carry a 50 foot length of 4mm cord for just this reason. (I mostly rappel in canyons these days.) Sometimes the beta is wrong or anchors get moved. It weighs about 6oz and has come in handy!
There's a fishing knot called an albright which might be a really great solution here, it should hold better than most of the arborist knots mentioned, and its very low profile. My thinking is that with low friction line, you just need more wraps for more friction.
I was just going to suggest that. I use that for attaching monofilament to operating lines in theater
Dig it. I do similar to retrieve rope end from trees but have it flaked in a bag and a pre spliced tight eye to clip. Or for throwlines attach it with a clove, girth, or constrictor a few feet up and follow with a couple half hitches to the end of the tail. Arb stuff
Oh also, for pulling the thin line. A good technique is to tie a munter on the biner so you can easily capture progress. If it slips you can twist the carabiner 1-3 times.
Girth hitch with a series of half hitches is what I use to pull rope through an anchor point in a tree after setting the throw line
I have started using the Reever Knot for most of non permanent joining now a days. So maybe give that one a go! It would be interesting how it reacts with such widely different diameter!
The Zeppelin bend is supposed to be a good non-jamming knot for joining slippery ropes. I'd be fascinated to see it pull tested.
Id like to see that too. I love the zeppelin bend- although doubt it would be useful in ropes with suck extreme size differences. I think it’s more for scenarios with a 9mm and a 13mm kind of size differences, not 2.3mm and 10mm I think- but I’m curious!
How about the reever bend? Does it also work on differently sized ropes?
zeppelin is awesome, but it's very easy to shake loose, especially with slippery stuff and size diffs
I sent him a bunch of knots 2 years ago, including Zeppelin bends. Video title is "Break Testing Knots - Zeppelin & Figure 8 & Alpine Butterfly & Reever & Bowline & Double Fisherman".
I don't think it'd work well for Dyneema, and it would be even worse for a diameter difference this big. You really want to swap how you think about knots when it gets this big, you're no longer joining two ropes but rather joining one rope to pull on a larger diameter object, so a good hitch works better than a bend.
If you are using a carabiner to back up the jam knot, just attach the tag line to the carabiner using any loop. Probably a bowline for nylon/polyester and a double bowline for dyneema.
Also you can thread the tag line though the second side of your belay device to stop it from twisting around your main line.
You can mark a black ropes middle with a silver or gold sharpie maybe
5:30 is it ok to use soft equipment directly on bolt like that?
If you're tying a knot in dyneema you can add an overhand knot right behind it to help reduce denima slipping through your original not
First- watching this after news of your stroke. Very sorry to hear of the health issues, hopefully things don't worsen!
In the same vein as this videos topic, in place of dyneema, teufelberger makes a product they call "Tech-cord" in both 3mm and 5mm diameters. It is a technora core, with a woven polyester sheath. Can you test the smaller diameter version and compare/contrast its performance in different knot strength/use with different friction devices for emergency egress use (e.g. munter and super-munter with a carabiner). Dyneema "works" here, but the polyester sheath may make the tech-cord work much better.
Thanks much!
I used some thick bright red thread on my 70 meter static line - I just used a needle and did a few loops and cut them, now there are threads sticking out that are easy enough to see.
If you are using dynema, forget trying to use knots and just add a nice big eye splice. The large eye would give you the ability to pass the rest of the dynema through the eye, especially if you have it coiled into a bag. What would work better is buying an arborist throw line as it is designed to be able to use knots that don't slip and can also very easily be tied to larger diameter ropes. I use a throwline made by Stein that's quite thin, very light, but also pretty strong. It can also be purchased in really long lengths 😊
I use oral b glide dental floss to mark my midpoint on dark ropes. I've heard of people passing floss through their rope, but I just wrap mine a bunch of times, and pass the ends under a few of the loops and pull them tight. It works great to see the midpoint, is cheap to replace, and doesn't hang up on better devices.
I started reading that and thought you were going to say you use Dental floss as your pull rope :)
Maybe back the sheet bend up by putting a triple overhand ("half a triple fisherman's") on the dyneema tail? Or just try a triple scaffold knot with the dyneema through an 8 on the rope?
I've been following you guys for a while and it's really awesome what you're doing with all the testing. I also recommend your channel for my students who are keen to look deeper into things. I like you always play safe and giving good example. Like in this video, always check your rig before unclipping your tether.
I have just one question now: any reason for not using a third hand during rappel?
Shh, he distracted you with something else to judge them by at the start, nevermind the lack of third hand!
(Also, it's acknowledged if not fully excused at 9:40)
5:00 I'd hitch the small rope around an end bend in the big rope, just four consecutive loops to form a friction hitch, and put the small rope through the bend in the fat one first. Like a seaman.
EDIT: in tree work I do this sort of thing all the time, use a short rope and retrieve it after rapelling.
Try two clove hitches with the dyneema 4” apart like arborists use with a throw line. Or a clove hitch and half hitch. Works for trees.
I second this as an arborist. This will give you the lowest profile to avoid getting those big knots stuck. I pull ropes through tight branch unions all the time. Use a clove or two about 8 inches down the rope and then a simple series of half hitches to the end. Also tie a simple double fisherman in the end of the dyneema so that it won't be able to slip through the clove.
Yup, clove hitch onto your climbing line, with about a foot of tail, is the way I learned from professionals.
Pile-half-half-clove hitch it is, super good enough
I use a girth hitch with 3 or 4 half hitches up to the end of the rope works every time
Hey I do that with the sling and belay loop!
everyone always looks but it doesn't rub through and i dont leave it cinched down all the time so, im chillin!
Thanks for the fascinating content -as always.
In regards to how to mark the middle of a black rope; I've seen suggestions that you could sow a marker at the mid-point only through the sheath and would love to see that break-tested!
I know nothing about climbing gear but can't you put some colored tape on it?
It's pretty easy to splice an eye into small amsteel, and for me that's always worked better than a knot.. For tiny stuff like that I have a piece of coat hanger wire on which I sanded the ends round. Tape the end of the wire to the end of the amsteel, use it as a fid to bury a long tail for a simple eye splice. Not a bad idea to put some stitches through it so it can't move around when unloaded. To attach it to a rope, just tie the rope through the spliced eye with whatever loop knot you like, e.g. fig8.
You can back up the double sheet bend with a retrace. I wonder if that would've prevented the dyneema from slipping.
I'd try a "racking bend".
Basically form a bight in the thick rope, insert the thin rope at the bottom and weave upwards in figures of eight as much as necessary. Finish with a half hitch or two.
Could you do a slack test video on sliding x with limiter knots. When using a cordelette it would make for a extended version of the quad anchor.
I used to work at a place where you would take a leap of faith at the end of a high ropes course. At the end of the day so that we didn't have any dynamic ropes hanging up in the sun we would pull them through the pulley with a 'mouse line's we would attach the mouse line with a clove hitch on the end of the rope with a few half hitches above it. I guess to make it work for this system you could just tie a stopper at the quick links and then your clove and half hitches after that.
I love watching your stuff on your website, but I have a hard time finding the most recent stuff there, a sort by date option would be super good enough to fix this.
With my 6mm tagline I either use two overhands knots tied after each other so with one snugged up against the other or a gibbs knot if i feel like it.
I use double or tripple clove hitch knots for treeclimbing when connecting two different ropes :)
For the same reasons we use a flat overhand to join ropes, it’s nice to use an overhand on a bight when rigging a reepschnur.
For joining ropes of dissimilar diameter I like the Gibbs bend or half gibbs. Although I’ve never tied ropes so wildly different in diameter.
Also I'm curious to see what happens to a rope pull / drop testing a knot block. I used one to climb a bit the other day trs but I'm pretty sure falling on it is a nogo.
What are your thoughts on doing testing on Hunting Climbing Gear. Aka Saddles?
How about testing the following:
Tie a permanent loop in the dyneema that the dyneema coil can pass through. And for that permanent knot ... tie an overhand then a finger width away tie another overhand knot then a further finger width away tie a third overhand knot.
And of course test with 1, 2, and 3 knots to give a graph of strength increase. And if 3 no good try 4. Please note I am suggesting separate overhand knots, each independent in their own right rather than like a double overhand tied as one knot by wrapping round twice. That could work too, but hard to inspect! Hope helps.
The 6 9 knot is my favorite for tying two ropes together
Our text book for knots in Croatia says you should always use a TRIPLE fisherman's knot when tying dyneema. So onw rotation per knot more than a double fisherman's.
1:20 silver Sharpie dawg
half gibbs offset bend, but I also haven't done it with a dyneema pull cord so watching your EDK fail I'm not sure if a half gibbs would have pulled out or not. I also might have used an actual Gibbs there because the pull cord is so small the knot might be too small to block with a half gibbs. (If whatever you look it up on doesn't say, the dyneema would be the double wrapped cord in a half gibbs)
I've used a half Gibbs with a Petzl Pur Line which is HMPE, but admittedly thicker (6mm). The half Gibbs worked fine and is still small enough to not add a lot of additional risk to getting the rope stuck on the pull.
Please test: 1) the clove hitch plus half hitches all the arborists are talking about, and 2) overhand on a bite in tagline girth hitched to rappel rope with a figure eight stopper knot in the rappel rope below the girth hitch.
IDK for climbing, but the zeppelin bend is a cool knot for this. haven't tried it with dyneema tho.
I was thinking of making interlocking loops by doing a barrel knot in each end of the rope. I see you did the same thing with a double 8. Which is better for the rope? I'm guessing the double 8.
1:19 Would be interesting to have you test a homemade way, but I've seen metolius climbing ropes where they have some colored thread at the halfway mark. Wonder if there is any strength risk in a climber putting some thread on a needle and poking it through the rope a few times....
I think I would try the double sheet bend and then use the tail of the dyneme to tie two half hitches. In my head it seems strong enough and low profile.
I've always used figure 8 on a bight on both ends and a locking carabiner in between
A friend of mine rappels with one rope and uses a device to retrieve the rope, looks like a nest of ropes or something. You put the end of your rappel rope in it like a sheath or something. And when you pull several times just like you did at 4:35 then the device comes off and you can retrieve the rope. I don't know how the device is called though or maybe it was homemade with dasy chains. I don't know.