MY BEEF WITH LAND ROVER. And I think I speak for most Land Rover Defender fans.
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- Опубликовано: 24 июл 2024
- Welcome to "4xoverland" channel. One of the world's first and leading global 4WD adventure motoring channels.
The title of this video is "MY BEEF WITH LAND ROVER. And I think I speak for most Land Rover Defender fans."
Am I a fanboy of any car maker, including Toyota? I say, no. Do I have a beef with Land Rover? Yes. And here's why. And why the 2020 Land Rover Defender is such a let down
#2020Defender #defender #landrover
My Defender Reality Check video: • DEFENDER 2020 REALITY....
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TFL The Fast Lane Car video: • You Really Won't Belie...
Caradvice Australia video: • 2020 Land Rover Defend...
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I BOUGHT A 45-YEAR-OLD RANGE ROVER. I must be out of my mind! | Range Rover Old?
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Beautifully said. Land Rover has become a style company making costumes for people who want to look rugged.
They only word they are not using is 'bespoke'....well not that I have checked. More black skivvies than singlets these days.
Like Harley Davidson
Yep
And that’s where they make money and that’s why they are there.
The guy hitting that nail right on the head here!!!
Same with carharrt work clothes 😔
Hi - thanks for the mention ... the winch fitting video series was not even finished ! just published the final part.. i think we had to cut every panel on the front of the Defender !
You guys are brave.
Never a truer word spoken. The fact that Suzuki is struggling to keep up with demand proves Andrew's point. A simple, effective, rugged and dependable vehicle that works right out of the box.
Then buy one, that was never L/Rovers market anyway, even the old Defender was +£40k when last sold new
@@scott5860 I did. Sold it on. Great 4x4. Too compromised to live with as my only car.
Land Rover has lost the plot. No longer a part of the real 4x4 family. Sad really, they had 50% of the niche market.
And now they will make billions. You guys need to stop your juvenile anger and just face facts. Things change. Land Rover changed....they are there to make money, not get a slap on the back from niche fans who could support the brand with actual numbers.
@@craiggagnon8407 Last time I checked the Toyota Landcruisers were slapimg the Land Rovers in sales. So Toyota must be doing something right.
Land Rover made themselves niche, their customer base now is only about 10% of the total car buyer market and they are lucky to get 10% of those people as customers.
The problem for off-road and overlanders I see, is that more and more 100% of the time city drivers want to drive a car that looks like it could go off-road but acts, performs like and enjoys the "luxury" experience of a road bound SUV.
There is a battle occuring on the road, everyone wants to be bigger and higher up on the road than everyone else. SUVs and 4WDs now account for 8 out of 10 car sales. That means every major manufacturer on the planet now makes an SUV even Ferrari and Massari are building SUVs.
And so, manufacturers are listening and changing how they produce 4WDs. Do you think that it's an accident that the LandCruiser 300 "testing" released two days ago features some road driving, road towing then they pretend they tried some off-roading but whoops Toyota forgot the "right tyres" and it's a bit muddy so we couldn't do it...
It's also not an accident that it sits up higher than any of the best selling SUVs.
These vehicles are being built with mums and dads doing city driving in mind, who maybe once every 5 years might need to go down a dirt road and feel that's as much off road as they want to experience.
It's not a single brand doing it, it's the whole industry because of market forces. It can't be helped, if you can no longer sell enough sedans to mum and pops then you've gotta switch up and give them what they want.
Land rover then : We took part in the Camel trophy.
Land rover now:Please contact your dealer with a check engine light on....
Great comment! It sums it all
Land Rover don't care as 99% of their customers just use their products as Chelsea tractors to say look my husband has made his mark in the world!
You are not making a statement in Chelsea with the New Land Rover it doesnt make the cut. You need to have a Gelandewagen for that purpouse!!
@@algennikolla5563 perhaps not, but it will look nice in the Costco parking lot in Taipei, or Manila, or Jakarta. My guess is that's what the thinking is.
The very type of husband that wears a suit and a man bun hair style and who doesn't know how to set a spark plug or change a tyre.
@@anthonybostock4854 changing spark plug is too far. He even dont know how to replace or clean air filter corectly
@@anthonybostock4854 🤣🤣🤣
Andrew, I appreciate your perspective. However, as an engineer that has brought concepts all the way through the development cycle to commercialization, my perspective on the 2020 Defender is they did not have any other choice than to build what they built. I know your colleagues consulted and they said that they felt JLR had already decided what to build, and they were right. That’s because JLR has very limited resources so they had to build a vehicle on a platform that already existed. Building a new chassis, production line that cannot be easily retooled for other purposes, and making everything compatible with current safety requirements would have required more money than JLR has, so we got the Discovery that we should have gotten, and not a Defender. I agree with the general automotive journalist conclusion that the 2020 Defender is the best Discovery yet, but it is not a Defender. However, no one should expect that JLR will produce a body on frame vehicle at this point. They simply do not have the resources to do so. Jeep has been evolving the Wrangler for decades to keep it current with safety standards and maintaining the same general body on frame architecture. Land Rover kept looking for exceptions to keep the unchanged Defender legal in certain markets, and never put the resources to truly modernizing the Defender. Unless JLR gets a tie up with a truck maker, do not expect them to make a truck. They’ll make unibody platforms that can be shared across multiple products. That’s just the reality of a small volume automaker in 2020. It’s a shame, because the 2020 Defender is a great vehicle, but not the one that many of us want.
You’re right sir, but they’re trying to market a vehicle as something it’s not. That’s the point. This is a major marketing failure.
I dont think that the whole uni body vs Ladder chassis debate was his point....the uni body system is quite capable of having non-electronic suspension systems....so why not offer them? As this man said its as if TATA JLR are willfully trying to distance themselves from the market segment that the Defender used to occupy, ie the working business people that cannot pop to the dealer every time the Dash throws a light and puts it in to limp home mode. By all means have the options for all of the toys but at least give a person the option to remove the electronic element to their own satisfaction for the given job they want to do. Electronic failures on cars are never going to go away heat, vibration, damp, cold everything that electronics do not respond well to you will find on a car, but all the manufacturers can do is try to mitigate the chance of failures. But there will be failures sooner or later and surely a customer will less annoyed by a light that comes on for a minor system that fails but does not cripple the vehicle (IE suspension errors parking brake errors etc) than one that automatically also shuts down the vehicle to the point it cant do its job or get itself out a situation. you do make valid points but TATA JLR have just decided to go upmarket and not bother to retain anything that could be considered a "working vehicle" its obviously too uncouth for such a sophisticated brand.......
@@ferretboy221 Land Rover is not a sophisticated brand though, this is the brand that brought us the first British farmer's car, the rich farmer's car in the original Range Rover, the Camel Trophy Discoveries of the '90s, this WAS a very capable off-road brand that you could fix anywhere with a few basic tools and it would get you places few other vehicles could reach. Now you can't fix it yourself unless you're a mechanic AND an electronics engineer, and even then you'd better have spares because none of the electronic modules and sensors are servicable. They really have shat on their traditional market while still trading on that heritage, it's quite disgusting behaviour you'd expect of a company being run by young conservatives or Alan B'stard & Gareth Cheeseman clones. I'd say they're poisoning the well of heritage they're drawing on for sales, probably why they'll be sold on yet again soon. Mark my words they'll go the way Rover Group went, piecemealed out to the highest bidder.
@@grumpymunchkin2959 Perhaps it is a marketing failure, but whether they make money on the new Defender will determine if it is a marketing failure or not. I tend to agree with you that JLR is being a bit disingenuous with their advertising campaigns, but so is every other automaker, which is why I generally hate advertisements. Mercedes went into the stratosphere taking the G class up market and it paid off handsomely for them. Toyota tried to do the same thing with the Land Cruiser in the US and failed miserably and now Land Cruiser is dead in the States. Thanks Toyota for royally screwing that one up. Turns out, people do not want to pay $85,000 USD to get the same shifter and switchgear as a $15,000 Corolla (of course this is ironically what makes the Land Cruiser so reliable). As a result, Toyota could only manage about 3,000 sales per year, which is nowhere near Range Rover, G class, Mercedes GLS, Audi, BMW in the world’s second largest auto market and the biggest auto market for large truck based SUVs. Now, that’s an epically tone deaf marketing failure if there ever was one.
@@ferretboy221 I think the ladder chassis versus unibody was a significant part of his point. Every other vehicle that he mentioned as a good off road vehicle and *easy to modify* is a ladder chassis: Original Defender, Discovery 1 and 2, Toyota every Land Cruiser, Prado, Nissan Patrol, etc. All utility vans, pick up trucks/utes. That’s not simply a coincidence. It’s a fundamental reason why fitting rock sliders, bull bars, etc. is so much more challenging which is one of his major gripes: aftermarket modifications. The other part that you point out very accurately is the dependence on electronics. I agree that JLR electronics do not inspire supreme confidence, but computer controls are not going anywhere in modern vehicles. Toyota has them for all engine management, and if that computer dies or malfunctions in the bush you’re “ffffff......in big trouble” too. There’s also no way a Boeing or Airbus gets into the air without tremendous computer controls too, but I don’t see people not getting on modern aircraft (pre-COVID) because they’re too electronic and talk about being “ffffffff.....in big trouble” at 35,000 feet if your electrics crap out in that extreme environment in the middle of the Atlantic or Pacific Ocean. Electronics *can be* (that’s not to say the new Defender’s will be) reliable, and just to recall the facts in the TFL matter, the *mechanical* engine was what prompted the need for an engine swap. The electronics that crapped out were for the cameras so you could see your own car from the outside perspective from inside the car, which I would hardly find essential or a life threatening failure. It’s annoying for sure. But, the point is, electronics aren’t going anywhere and we have to get used to them like it or not as they are essential for meeting emissions standards, which also are only going to get tighter. At first, I was just as resistant. But, after owning 10-12 Jeeps without any electronics, I bought a Discovery 4, diagnostic tool that pairs with my phone, and my god it’s never been easier to work on and troubleshoot my vehicle. Yes, it was scary at first, but I didn’t have any choice so I decided to learn. As for the air suspension, Atlantic British makes conversion kits for coils for Discovery 3 and 4. I agree with you, this should be a factory option, but again, JLR doesn’t have enough resources (they’re constantly losing money) to add extra supply lines for different parts. The Discovery, Range Rover, and now Defender share so many different underpinnings, that’s how they get their marginal cost down and who is going to spec a coil spring Range Rover? I don’t like it, but given JLR’s financial situation, I don’t see how they have any other choice but to share as many parts as possible, go upmarket where margins are better, and pray for profitability. And they’ll indeed be praying....My perspective is JLR is making the best bad decisions that they can given the reality they are facing. Unfortunately, they’re still bad decisions, but we shouldn’t be surprised by them. The Discovery only competes with Defender and they’re just cannibalizing their own sales by sharing so many parts. It’s an unfortunate feedback loop that they find themselves in, but I don’t see a good way out of it either. As much as the rest of us, I wish the circumstances were different and JLR were in a much stronger position to offer products that would get us excited, but they’re not, so this is what we got and we can either make due, or buy something else. While the Grenadier shows great promise, I’m bracing myself for a letdown there too based on many of the same realities impacting JLR and the Defender. It’s just not going to be possible to build the Grenadier at first for less than $50,000 USD, which is hardly a mass market vehicle. Too early to start drinking?
Land Rover is trying to be like Apple and control every aspect of the units, accessories and experience.
I was thinking exactly the same thing. That's why I own a Google phone.
@Adam Burgess Dude, you're on the wrong channel. 😂😂😂😂
The Land Rover has left the utilitarian market.
The new Defender is bought by people who go Glamping, and Land Rover knows and like that idea. The new Defender is a Fashion item and that’s all it is, Cool. But in the real world not really that useful.
You are correct in the fact that LR has definitely abandoned the utilitarian market. They are now an SUV brand rather than an off road brand.
They left that market b/c they couldn't make enough in sales profit. Japanese ate their lunch.
100%. Richard Hammonds's review of it was spot on, it's just a more capable Defender for people that want to go out to the countryside occasionally.
It's for lawyers, doctors, ceo's that go fishing, mountain biking, kyacking and need that luxury appearance
If people want that then they need to buy a Discovery 5, Range Rover or Jaguar SUV. We wanted an offroaded, not another rehash of their existing line-up. They sell 10 models of the same exact car with different styling and this was their chance to broaden their market but they just played it safe.
We all want Land Rover to build great cars. But they fail miserable every time. They know how to design a car. But they never learned to build them. That’s the difference.
IMO the new Defender is a horrible design, from the aesthetics down to the mechanics.
@@Alvinvids I like bits of it, shame all the bits are on the inside. Side note the seats have to be in the top 4 best seats my arse has been in. Just bloody shame they are in bolted to that car.
@@Alvinvids I like it..and sitting in one is a nice experience. But I drive a Toyota 😊
"They know that for a purpose"
To be a junk
Basically they can make defender overbuild like toyota or honda do. But they think it would bite them in the end. And what actually happened is vice versa.
You’re right, a bigger version of the jimny would have been perfect
@Happy McJoyJoy We recently got the presale for the 1st 1000 Jimnys since the 80's and they were sold out in 3 hours. I hope that tells manufacturers to build more off-roaders.
Exactly!!!!
Give me a big diesel jimny any day! They genuinely could not build them fast enough to meet demand!
Or hear me out on this idea , how about a Suzuki Wagon R 4x4 ? sounds crazy but you get more head room with the Wagon R so more comfortable for passengers ,anyway anything is better than driving a New Land Rover which has basically become as iMac on Wheels lol , blame Kanye and all those LA rappers for it lol
And they wouldn't have a fraction of the inevitable warranty claims.
U have literally said everything that needs to be said period
Maybe, and just maybe, Land Rover has a beef with their customers
I don't like Cadogan's boofheaded delivery, it eats into the impartial approach that builds trust, but this vid says you're right: ruclips.net/video/ggrdEup0g30/видео.html
I wrote the exact same thing above, then scrolled down and saw your comment. Bravo.
They are snobs. It's that simple
hahhaa. This is the most plausible reason why
You are 85% spot on, the other 15% I put down to LR just saying "feck the customers".
You “defended” yourself, and your position, in a gentleman’s way with class. Thank you for speaking up and doing it well!
Well Andrew, I have to eat some humble pie here, I stopped watching you a while ago because I thought you were constantly bashing the Land Rover brand, I was wrong about you and as a Land Rover fan (nearly 35 years) I must say I have to agree, Land Rover have completely missed the point with this new vehicle, it’s never going to be a true utility/ over lander workhorse!
SHAME ON YOU LAND ROVER...
You would need a phd to fix it x
Sir, your passion for the Land Rover and vehicles in general has just won you a new fan and subscriber!
In Australia you can be 100’s of kms away from the next person and even further from a service centre. This is not the car for that task.
And people always wonder why I purposefully bought my Toyota pickup with a manual, smaller proven 4 cylinder engine, and nearly zero options. Simplicity is key!
I suspect you would like the Land Rover Perentie, the Australian Army Defender variant. They popped in the Isuzu 3.9 litre 4BD1 diesel four cylinder mated to the LT95 gearbox/transer case, came 2.5" lifted as standard and the chasis was widened at the rear to allow a spare to be stowed underneath and the chasis was hot dipped galvanised. All mechanical except for the lights and starter motor, and great off road. They were as slow as a wet week and noisier than a hail storm on a tin roof. But they were nigh on indestructable!! en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_Rover_Perentie
Nowadays LR is lifestyle brand and not seeking from utilitariant consumer again
Stimmt
The new Defender just doubled the price of a old Defender.
Well it hasn’t
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
@@aryangupta6661 in the UK old defenders are going anywhere from £40,000-£80,000
Yep
Well done Andrew. You absolutely nailed this video. I believe there are many examples where you can improve -things- by taking stuff away. Love watching your videos. Keep up the great work.
Maybe they should have called it the Offender judging by people's reactions🤣
Exactly - go buy a wrangler or a Toyota and move on - just like LR did!👍
😂😂😂
I’m a Land Rover owner and totally agree with your comments Andrew, they’re only building cars for status now not practicality!
even ellen degeneres bought one for driving thru ruggedy hollywood roads......
They're building cars for profit. They're a business, they have to make what will sell the most units at the biggest profit and there are a very, very small number of people who will buy a new vehicle, modify it and use it for sport off road.
@@stevec6427 and thats also true
@@agnesnjeru8968 The number is relatively tiny compared to the number who will buy for other purposes. If it was a big enough market and profitable enough, of course they would make the most of it
@@stevec6427 Except they didn't, and they won't. When they were making the Defender they didn't update it & they didn't make it particularly reliable. There is a reason British farmers are driving Hiluxes & Isuzus. The market is still there, it just knows it can get more reliable vehicles cheaper. If JLR had used their new platform to produce a reliable, simple to work on off-road vehicle with no frills that was priced compitively they would have pulled sales from many other brands including Toyota. But instead they chose to pull sales from their other models, especially the Discovery & Evoque.
Great video Andrew. You spoke absolutely precisely to the problem of companies that forget where they came from and stop listening to their customers. The result predictably is declining sales and former die hard fans who bought because of the renown almost iconic reliability and simplicity jumping ship for yes I said it, Toyota. (I am from Uganda, E.Africa and growing up all I saw and knew was landrover. Today it's probably less than 1 in 10 4x4s is a landy. Reliability in the outback Downunder or on safari in Africa is critical. Great video, we appreciate your honesty and passion👍🏿💯👏🏿🙏🏿
The mans passionate about his job, you have to give him that !.......when I heard it has over 100 sensors I thought WTF!!
Land Rover never cared about their most iconic model.. the Defender( not the Range Rover) for decades. Who cares about the new one? Not me anyway. You're right sir!
@@dandaniels4558, I don't consider myself a looser as you say in any way from my nearly 20 years of ownership of my 110 Defender, yes they have many differences and some shortcomings in design and build to many other brands but they are infinitely more versatile to adapt to overlanding than almost all other brands of 4x4's to date. Defenders have a better suspension system being coil for more years over most competitors and are lighter with the ability to carry more load from stock than most other brands. Almost all Defender deficiencies as is for all brands can be overcome by aftermarket parts and accessories readily available. Yes these days there are many more comfortable and powerful 4x4 vehicles than a Defender having not changed much in the past thirty years but would I swap mine for a new 70 or 200 series Toyota? certainly not. Yes a new vehicle will be very reliable for 10 years or so then after that the value is in the recycled ,materials of which much will be plastic. As Andrew said Landrover should have followed the lead of Suzuki as all other brands including Toyota are going down the sale path as landrover is in 2020.
@@dandaniels4558 It may indeed be the best at going over off-road terrain/obstacles, but overlanding is about durability. And 4WDing is about longevity and reliability. It is magnificent off road, no doubt, but we want a car that will be reliable and last a long time. This is not it.
@@dandaniels4558 Ha ha, someone is a Caring Understanding Nurturing Type. Your smart phone is amazeballs, it's a mini super computer in your pocket. Now go and drop it face down on a rock. How good is it now? Do the same with the old Nokia 3310. Now who ya gonna call? There's your analogy in a nutshell. Now it's time for your Bex and a lie down...
@@dandaniels4558 I love the concept of owning and using a new Defender in the bush. I won't accept the risk of owning a new Defender due to LR vehicles being totally dependant on electronics. This could be mitigated if it wasn't for the FACT that LR vehicles are constantly afflicted with poor reliability. The loser is the buyer who spends their hard earned money only to find themselves stuck in the middle of nowhere whilst waiting to be recovered at a cost of $10k -$5k and have their holiday ruined. I can only assume you're not one of those losers because you have a contingency plan should you break down: you call road assistance to have your car towed whilst sipping a coffee in a not so distant rural hamlet.
@@dandaniels4558 Wooden Spoon to you Danny Boy.
perhaps landrover have decided that you're no longer the market
You’re correct. LR has well and truly left the utilitarian off road market for the crowded and uninspiring luxury SUV market.
Bingo. The people who bought the old defender are not the people who will buy the new defender. The company is going down a different direction towards SUVs.
@Abel Harbour eugh, nomenclature.
It's not a sports vehicle.
It's not a utility vehicle.
It's not a vehicle that's particularly useful for sports.
It is a vehicle. And it shares that with scores of others.
Exactly !!!
Thanks for this passionate review/response. I am completely new to LR, and Ive bought a Defender, even after seeing your previous critique. I do love it. I have no expectation of the Defender name, because I’ve never owned one. I’m well off, and can afford this car, and while I love adventuring I’m not as serious as you and the others here. So I guess I’m a happy owner, but I completely respect your disappointment and your criticisms. I’m not a poser (I bought the base model in white with no-cost wheels), and in some ways I think owning an older Defender is a social statement all of its own. Subscribed :-)
There is only one way to test them as a defender. Put 20 of them through a Camel Trophy!
It pains me you actually have to explain this.
I love his opinion on 4x4s, I can´t get enough.
He didn't need to though, the last video was comprehensive. Just seeing the clips from TFL was enough to prove his point
👍
There is a very good reason Suzuki can't keep the Jimny in stock. It's bloody brilliant
My thoughts exactly Andrew. I too, absolutely hate (with a passion) all electronic devices on ‘all vehicles’, not just 4WD vehicles. 😊
Love your channel. It’s the only one worthy of watching these days, in regards to anything relating to 4WD’s and their uses, such as your expeditions and over-landing.
Keep up the good work mate. Your comments are a favourite of mine and your in-depth descriptions of the pros & cons of vehicles and their associated accessories are most appreciated. Thank you. 😊👍👍
Straight and honest review! 👍🏻 Thank you! A good example of how to make a very modern vehicle that is still highly customizable are the BMW R nineT and R18 motorcycles. Customizing has been part of the engineering from the beginning, and a business objective. The result: Both, independent customizers AND BMW have now a huge playground for business and people are having fun and buying like crazy...
I agree 100% Andrew. Thay missed the mark on the defender. And, If it breaks, you're ffffff ...... in trouble. I had a little chuckle.
If it breaks - check out TFL cars! their defender last 169 before the check engine light went on. You really need to check it out - spoiler alert they are now on their THIRD defender.... let the good times roll
@@vingtsun1952 I follow tfl
I had to repeat that part. lol
Well said Andrew!
I’m looking forward to your thoughts on the Ineos Grenadier.
@@tommy4244 If they ever get it made, you mean? The fact the owner campaigned for brexit & is now planning on building the Grenadier on the continent suggests he is just as cynical as the JLR team that brought us the new 'Defender'.
The defender is sadly 😪 in the rich house wife school delivery wagon category
The commercial Defender is not much more than a Hilux.
@@agt155 but if the Hilux is cheaper & more reliable why would you buy a 'Defender'?
@@AnthonyIlstonJones ..because the Defender is a much nicer vehicle to look at, be inside and drive.
@@agt155 Hope it's comfortable to sit in while you're waiting for the recovery vehicle, because there's no way you're going to be able to fix it by the side of the road. I'll grant you modern Discoverys are nice places to be inside, they're just Range Rovers on a budget (albeit still a fairly hefty one). But there's nothing preventing a customer putting Range Rover seats in a Land Cruiser, then you can have reliability AND comfort at the same time. And your resale value won't fall through the floor at 10 years old. Just a thought.
@@AnthonyIlstonJones You can't fix any modern vehicle by the side of the road. Take a look at a new Toyota truck - packed full of electronics. LR & RR have very good resale value compared to their competitors, it's why they are often cheaper to lease.
I so agree with you. You never make boring comments, and I like the swing around focus on SUVs and road scenarios, keep going 4xoverland !
Brand new subscriber, actually know SQUAT about overlanding, overland vehicles, brands, suspensions etc etc etc etc . . . . . I am 62 and was actually looking at the RV videos as I like the idea of the freedom of getting away and camping, though apart from military "camping" have hardly ever done camping as such, when lo and behold I stumbled upon this site. I am absolutely smitten, and have binge watched video after video after video. It's GREAT to view such a combination of experience, fun, downright honesty, product knowledge, and fantastic photography, I am starting to get the wife interested now as well, and who knows, one day I retire and get an "overlander" that can also RV, that would be a great combination!
I heard you well the first time, so sorry you have to defend yourself.
I see what you did there
Discovery in his mind?
I love the irony!
After decades of Land Rover owners being let down by the poor reliability of their cars, now the whole Land Rover company has let them down.
Excellent comment. And that is what made Japanese successful: they kept the good sides of the LR but adding reliability on top ! That’s how LR disappeared from Africa.
You hit the nail on the head. I have spent many years working in outback and rural Australia... I would pick a base model dual cab from what was Holden (Colorado) or an Isuzu dmax over a Landrover defender. Trust means reliability, reliability means survival.
That said, about a year ago I moved to a Toyota Landcruiser after weighing up different options same reason prevailed.
"You don't want to be relying on electronics. You just don't, because when its fails you can't fix it. And then you are FFFFFFFF.... in big trouble." Ffffff'ed indeed.
yip have too agree , u cant fix them cars on the side of the rd
So you light your house with candles?
@@aryangupta6661 no we use lecky lol
The old defender is good but the new one just is not a defender
By that logic just go buy a used old defender.
@@grahamarthur
Better still i bought a 76 series land cruiser 😉
@MysteriousOklahoma 76 is the four door wagen version
Had they called it ANYTHING else, no one would have taken issue. It's just not up to filling the very big shoes , left by previous Defenders.
@@salahalsulaiman ha ha :)
You can see why they went after Ineos (legal action) as they know only too well that the Defender customer base is now lost to them!
Then why chase what they deliberately alienated? They keep poisoning the well of heritage they draw on, then wonder why people buy other brands. Other manufacturers make SUVs that are cheaper & more reliable, and some of them are just as comfortable. If they're not made locally, not reliable & not cheaper than the opposition then why would you buy one? Posermobile, they already make several of those & they aren't reliable either.
I’m not sure why anyone expects aftermarket accessories to be available the instant a vehicle is released, but already aftermarket roof racks are available for the 2020 Defender to which you can fit any tent of your choice. No doubt all the other accessories will follow in due course just as they have for Discovery 3, 4 etc. I’ve had 7 Land Rovers, three of which were “old” Defenders and the most recent one is a 2020 Defender. I don’t miss the old ones at all. As for electronics, don’t expect any new vehicle to come without them. Legislation simply won’t allow it. Rumour has it that autonomous emergency braking will soon be compulsory on all new vehicles sold in Europe. Electronics are here to stay.
Do you take your vehicles 'remote' or are you an owner that takes it to the shops and back .. or maybe pick up the kids from school?
There's nothing wrong with having electronics in a vehicle .. as long as it is NOT controlling critical functions, ie. functions that prevent the vehicle from being driven, or something that cannot be easily repaired or bypassed.
@@davidhuett3579 yes I do. I’m just being realistic about what the market is today and what makes money for JLR. Having lived in West Africa for several years I can tell you that the most popular JLR product there is a Range Rover Sport, preferably in black, with privacy glass all round and lots of chrome. I agree with you about electronics not causing critical failure but the issue is not the use of electronics but it’s reliability. Electronics keep aircraft in the sky, indeed most now have no manual controls at all. Reliability is perfectly possible (I used to work designing avionics). But the killer fact is that legislation will not allow a vehicle like the old Defender to be sold any more. Anyone wanting something like that is going to have to build (or more likely restore) it themselves.
Love from India, Goa. Really appreciate your unbiased views.
I think anyone speaking honestly, would agree they wouldn't feel confident to take a new Defender on a serious trip.
Agreed. They have moved to an entirely different customer who mainly drives on road. The odd bit of off-roading fun appeals, but not in the middle of Africa, more like byways of Banbury :D
@@andrewnorris5415 They have. It's strange also because they are now missing many military, police, communications etc etc applications. That is a large part of the market gone.
All the more reason for some reputable overlander to go and do that specifically. I would LOVE to see it do the canning stock route, and despite all the hoopla, it would likely be completely undramatic.
@@ihmesekoilua I would also love to see that.
I wouldnt since the TFL defender series
When only one builder (Land Rover) offers accessories for a vehicle, there is no competition and hence no innovation.
But they aren't.
I don't own a LR defender yet but you're so correct in saying that this is a "Discovery" more so than the "Defender work horse". Your passionate message about the Defender (Legendary history of LR Defender vehicle) is honest and simple to the fact! Keep up the great work! Thx
I received a letter with the statment: "the new Land Rover Defender is loved by engineers and designers" - I wrote a mail back, that they should build a car loved by overlanders and farmers. Never got a reply back :-) - I love the old DEFENDER and it will run for the next years to come - so no worries.....
Jeep's are the closest to what a real new modern Defender should be
Sadly the defender was never pitched at the overland market, designed to be a showy school run bus
The only bummer about this video is this gentleman just isn't passionate enough about the subject matter.
I owned a series 1 Land Rover from 1976 to 2006. It was hot, noisey, rough and the horse hair stuffed seat cushions were very uncomfortable but it could go anywhere, easy to repair and was very reliable. I finally gave it to a bloke who was going to rebuild it and take it on a expedition from west to east across Australia at the widest point. The best part about these early landy's was the crank handle for starting and the mechanical capstan winch that could be fitted to the front of the vehicle. I also used a series 2A for bull catching in the late 70's also a good vehicle and was amazing at climbing rocky hills and very easy to crank start
Dear Andrew, I have 3 Land Rovers parked in my garage at the moment and I want to say that you are not alone at feeling being let down.
New or old
Fool me once shame on you.....hahahaha 3 times 🤣
@@me2ontube 26, 20 and 3 years old.
@@titot2370 I didn’t say they are lemon, awesome cars and going strong but its the end of the road for me.
@@mustyguld fair enough.
From a car fan to an offroader fan, You just feel his pain and frustration for the brand 🥺🥺🥺
LOL Andrew, @20:37 “and then you are f….in big trouble”. What a recovery and what a gentleman 😂👏🏾
Thank you for your courage and honesty.
don't overland. I agree with you heartily
full heart
But even I am not in the remotes remote, I do not want to pay for lots of electronic I do not need and whose only advantage seems to be that I have to repair them sooner or later.
I recently got stuck in my SUV in some snow. The electronics failed to get the enough power to one of the non-rotating wheels. I know all these electronic helpers get better, but they never get better than something we already have, something which works perfectly and seldom will break down: Mechanics. I want real locks, not something in between.
When the David Attenborough of 4X4 disrespects your flagship offroader, you have a serious problem!
Greatest comment ever. David Attenborough of 4x4 , I like that
They have no problem, making any car that suits the needs he mentions, the firm wouldn’t be profitable. They stopped making the previous defender because it was no longer profitable, the market is far too small.
@@NickLiang No, they stopped making the old Defender because it was no longer compliant with modern safety & emissions legislation. The market for rugged off-road vehicles is as strong as it ever was, but people want their vehicles to be reliable in this day and age & that's something Land Rover have never got the hang of. The old Land Rovers were simple to fix with the most basic of tools, so people could forgive their unreliability, but vehicles are so complex nowadays that if your electronic handbrake fails or a sensor on your fancy air suspension breaks you'll be stranded wherever you are. Which is why people who need a reliable off-road vehicle are not buying Land Rovers, they buy Toyotas Isuzus & even Wranglers (though they modify the hell out of those chasing reliability). It's not the market that has changed so much, it's more the standards people are willing to accept has changed because they know what they can get for their money and you're paying a huge price for the Land Rover name that the product itseft doesn't warrant.
The thing I like about you is the seriousness and passion with which you talk about 4wd's, as if it were physics, thermodynamics or the evolution of human kind.
You're right; I'm even concerned that my pure road car is too electronic.
Your points are very clear. Only unwise person doesn't understand. I've been following your channel for quite a number of years and I have learnt a lot about 4x4s. I have even bought a 4x4 bakkie for myself just to start adventure. I like your honesty or unbiasness when when doing reviews. I watched your video where u so impressed by Land Rover Discovery 4 in Baboons Pass. You also did another video on a Range Rover sport immediately after that and you said you would prefer a Discovery than the Ranger Rover... the same sentiments about too many electronics in Discovery 4 you repeated them here, and I fully agree with you. Keep up your good work, I will keep learning from you and hope to meet you in the bundus one day.
What the Land Rover lineup should be:
Range Rover 92k- keep it
Evoque- keep it
Discovery Sport- kill it
Discovery 5 phase out into new Discovery 6 based on 2020 defender platform
Discovery 6 2022 Defender guts with new Disco body
Defender 30k-60k- Ford Bronco/Wrangler competitor
Evoque such :v low quality build
what is the reason for a the velar ?
@@youtubecarspottersguide1 Ah, i don't really mind the Velar, and it sells well I think
@@chanceym6000 never seen one on the road in so calif.
Is it only me, that when someone says "I fitted a winch", that you expect them to have got their hands dirty fitting the thing?
First of all, I smiled when I saw your book, it's in my bookshelf since many years. And I love Land-Rovers for what they used to be. The new one is good looking, capable off the road, but as you say, not for the bush. Nor for working on it, changing bits, and bolting extras on it. It will mainly drive on tarmac. Look at the Range-Rover, the first one was luxury, but still a Land-Rover by heart. Today's Range-Rover are only luxury. Okay, with off-road capabilities. But does it need it? Seldom 😉
I totally agree with you, and I'm a fan-boy. 😁
As a person who grew up with Land Rover and fell in love with the idea of it, I share your POV 100%. My Father started with a Defender V8 back in the 90's he moved to the disco 1 and then a few disco 2's, from there he had 2 Disco 3's in 2010 he bought a Defender Puma again, got mad at LR and bought himself a 79 Cruiser Station wagon, 10 months later he went back to a Disco 4, from there he had a few Range Rovers and now he is driving he's second Disco 5. I myself owned a 2.8 Defender and I loved it, but the maintenance was too expensive. my Point that I am trying to say is that I love Land Rover, or actually use to. I believe the last real Discovery was the disco 2, I remember how we toured across Africa, and buy was it good off-road compared to the other brands. I was still a fan of the Disco 4 but with the introduction of the Disco 5 my mind shifted and now with the new Defender, I will not be looking for one. And as a person who grew up with Land Rover I am not a fan by any means of a Toyota, but even I acknowledge that they are great of roaders, and I was hoping that the new Defender will go on my list as my future 4x4 to buy as a family car and as a tourer, but unfortunately my mind has shifted and I would rather buy a Prado. And you said it, one of my main reasons are the coils springs, yes all cars have electronics, but I don't want them in my 4x4 when I am in the middle of Botswana or Namibia without signal. And yes we have never had problems with Air Suspension before, but my father only drives he's Land Rover's 2 years where I intend to keep it for 10 or more. ( actually we have had problems with the Air Suspension x2 times but not in remote places, luckily once on our way back home from Botswana and once on holiday close to the beach, where the car went into limp home mode.
Land Rover have Lost their way. Perhaps INEOS will continue the tradition with the Grenadier.
PPPFTTTT.......sorry i didn't mean to make it sound like i don't believe that for a second.......but i don't.
@@ferretboy221 I'm with you on that one, a tax-exile billionaire campaigns for brexit then goes back on his promise to build in the UK? Giving it a patriotic name like 'Grenadier' just looks like marketing at this point.
What do they say these days " they sell lifestyles, not cars" .. And like Harley, their target market is/has moved off
I don't think the market has changed THAT significantly, it's just JLR don't want the original market segment they had with the Defender. Instead of using their monocoque platform to produce a no-frills offroader that actually complied with ever tougher safety & emissions legislation, they decided to make another Range Rover clone with slightly different styling. They'll only be taking sales from their other Chelsea tractors, because people wanting a reliable SUV will be looking elsewhere. The continued sales of Hiluxes and Wranglers proves the market is still there, but instead of diversifying in difficult times Land Rover decided to go all in to a market that legislators have determined shall be literally non-existant by 2030. Lexus seem to have more of a clue, running their V8s & V6s as hybrids in their SUVs. People still want their bigger vehicles if they can afford to run them, but legislators seem determined to exterminate large passenger vehicles and gas-guzzling engines within the next decade. The right's and wrongs of that are an entirely different discussion, but it is clearly going to affect the market - not in what people WANT to buy, but in what they are allowed to.
@@AnthonyIlstonJones with the great reset most of us won't have jobs or enough money to be able to buy the vehicle we want, the only option for the lucky few who our oligarch overlords favour, will be to rent something bearing the Princess Nut Nuts / Extinction Rebellion seal of approval.
20:37 “and then you are ffffff. In big trouble.” Rated R to PG, nice catch, couldn’t have communicated it better.
I love my discovery but I completely agree with what your saying. I have a 2003 discovery 2A and ill never sell it because from this particular model, in my opinion, they go downhill for the type of long distance, hard off road use you talk about. Still being live axle front and rear, coil spring (mine has air bag but I want to keep it that way), center diff lock, ABS and traction control that's simple and works very well. Ive had it for 4 years and never had a major issue even though i have driven it through very tough terrain, water over the bonnet and towed many vans and trailers through the bush. Ive also noticed the prices are definitely heading north as well as people are now searching for off road vehicles that are tough, capable and basic enough to be repaired on the track if anything happens to them.
Keep up the good work Andrew, I know your like many of us, a LR lover at heart but have been let down by the pencil pushers and accountants who don't understand the heart of the loyal fan who doesn't judge a vehicle by how many cup holders it has.
We're missing the point. We're no longer LR's target market. Now LR want tall Jaguars, no longer British Lada Nivas.
Now there's a rugged, simple 4x4... the Lada Niva.
I said that in several comments. He is not listening. There was no market big enough for the old dedicated fans, and competitors anyway, an over-saturated market for what return you get. LR must get with the times in order to recoup the massive dev costs of new vehicles these days. They have moved to an entirely different customer who mainly drives on road. The odd bit of off-roading fun appeals, but not in the middle of Africa, more like byways of Banbury :D
@@andrewnorris5415 not helped though by somewhat poor build quality on LRs..but i definitely agree it pays to target the middle classes now with disposable income rather than farmers with tight purse strings..
@@wts7759 $50k-$100k+ cars aren't targeting the middle class
“tall Jaguars, no longer British Lada Niva”.
How true...
The new Defender is perfect for the North American market, which is what LR wanted so they built it. They never wanted or intended to build something like the old defender
We North Americans don’t want that shit, we wanted the old Defender to be sold here. We buy more wranglers day by day, new Bronco is gonna sell like hotcakes.
Also, we import a shit ton of old Land Cruisers, Pajeros, Delica 4x4, Hiace 4WD, Liteace 4WD & Suzuki Samurais from Japan because the market for real off roaders are huge here.
These are not vehicles to take off road where I want to go. I’ve owned 4 LRs so I have some experience. A 96 discovery with manual gearbox box, 91 RR county, 96 RR, 01 RR 4.6 and 2004 RR. All off-roaded on out of the way challenging areas. Now I own a 2011 Lexus GX 460 ( prado) with a lift and bigger tires.
Off road capabilities are probably more important for the North American market than any other first world market.
Love your passion Andy,and as usual your spot on about the “defender”
Funny about the Suzuki Jimny, you can purchase serious off-road gear from ARB, Frontrunner, and even your favorite seat covers for it. I ordered mine in January, can’t wait for delivery sometime in the next 12 months.
Would have loved to have purchased a new Defender (or even better, an older one) but it won’t fit in my garage in Japan. :(
I’ve watched your videos for some time now and have always valued your honest and proven opinion. You’ve given me great advice on, for example, how to choose a rack, and why.
Unfortunately, Land Rover, along with many others, has a vision of getting you to the shops and back, and not across the desert or outback. It’s not where their market is in their opinion.
They will make an amazing Defender for racing, but as you’ve said before discussing the Pajero, it’s only a body shape and badge, nothing else is retained.
Keep giving me your opinion, it keeps your BP down (video completed) and shares valuable knowledge on those of us who haven’t shared your experiences.
Thank you.
Totally agree with your point of view.
Land Rover has left the Utilitarian user behind.
Just watched the whole video through and couldn't agree more. Hard to find a good mechanical 4x4.
Jimmy is one. Lada Niva is one. But yes it’s hard to find one. Probably the G300 Professional or the Jeep Wrangler Rubicon.
Great video, I agree 100% - Audi did the same thing when they walked away from the older style Sedans/Wagons that had manual locking differentials and simple computers. The new cars are designed solely to last the duration of a lease agreement. The classic 4000's and 5000's , the later 90's, 100's and 200's - had their quirks (just like the classic Land Rovers) BUT - at 200,000 miles they were just stepping into their stride. Unfortunately, Land Rover and Audi didn't leave the market, the market led LR and Audi away from their old market. Thanks again for a well considered and thoughtful video (as always!)
Perfect explanation for what we the Land Rover Fans feels about the new car, can't be called Defender!! thanks
There's nothing like a 70 series Landcruiser... It could be... But they wanted make it fancy and not a workhorse...
Thanks for your video Andrew
If only they could make the rear axle the same width as the front. Be good if they moved it back about a foot as well, the rear overhang is terrible.
@@aus_overlanderoverhang with 2.98m between axles???? terrible is something you can not find on a 70 series Landcruiser.... You can find a few in a old Defender though.... And certainly a few more in the 20 version as well
@@auladepiano Front seats, hand brake, stupid rear axle, alternator location are a few things that are terrible.
@@aus_overlander sorry... I have a 75 troopy model with a 1hd-t engine and 78 rear leaf springs. My rear axle is just fine.
@@aus_overlander yeah but you can fix all those problems if you want. Point is about the defender you even have limited tyre choices & difficulty fitting a winch
Being an "old school" Defender owner, I couldn't agree more with your insights on the new Defender.
He's spot on
What Defender do you own? (Tdi/Td5/ TDCi/V8)
I admire your passion and sincerity, and share in your disappointment. New subscriber here, looking forward to learning from you and your work. Cheers
Lovely content. Take care of your health mate, we want you around for a long time.
“...that’s because you are snobs” 😂👌
Very well said ! Thank you Andrew for expressing our thoughts in a very pragmatic way !
Absolutely! I am an American who has daily driven, worked (way beyond rated GVW) and modified OLD Land Rovers for over 30 years, in America, a market Land Rover abandoned in 1974, then came back for the "lifestyle market" in late 1986. I was close with the dealer in Portland, Oregon in the 1990's , and being a high volume dealer, got to se reps and talk with them about the direction they were headed back then. When they "had" to take the Defender off the market there after 1997, the rep told me that there wasn't a market volume there worth modernizing the Defender for, even as Jeep Wrangler sales were skyrocketing, and people were dumping big bucks modding them. Jeep went from strength to strength, upgrading over the next two decades, and just look at the huge sales volume !!.
Land Rover began life by copying and upgrading the Jeep concept. Their new age, arrogant product planners, engineers and "design language" (Phptt!!) are completely, blissfully ignorant of this fact.
I think Land Rover do know their market. It’s the likes of David Beckham and those that aspire to be “country”. It is not overlanders sadly.
Exactly. Ellen Degeneres just bought a new Defender 110... and took it shopping.
'nuff said.
Glad I didn't have to make this comment.
Generally ASP is spot on and quite insightful, but boy oh boy has he entirely missed it on this one. Land rover has no interest in building a "workhorse" to compete with Toyota and move bugger all volume privately (they know they won't crack the NGO/mining market globally) when they can just build high end mall crawlers and move massive volume in Europe, Asia and the Middle East at a higher price point....
@@danielbarrington8048 Maybe but why forgo the workhorse market? All LR are doing is entering a crowded field and cannibalising their own sales as the new Defender is so similar to the Discovery, Range Rover etc. There is no competition in the workhorse market place except Toyota - and they were going to exit in 2017 themselves I gather. Also LR branding has always relied on the rugged workhorse image embodied in the Defender. With no real workhorse their brand cachet will ebb away. They will be like Jaguar - a brand on death row.
It should have become a bigger Jimmy, that’s were the design Qs should have come from. Great video !
That's what the old defender was.
You had the samurai/sierra, small and light.
The patrol and Land Cruiser, big and heavy.
The defender, the middle ground...
That is no defender that is a PRETENDER That is the most people there point of view 😂😂🤔🤔🤣🤣🤣
Suzuki is making a 5 door Suzuki Jimmy. I can't wait to see how that turns out
@@robertjames9191 it will turn out bad.
I own an highly modified samurai. The new Jimny drivetrain is very similar to the samurai's.
The bearings are small, soo you can't load it.
Crown and pinion are small, soo you can't load it.
Frame is lightweight, soo you can't load it.
NA 4 banger with no power at all.
Stock U joints are weak.
Stock 22 spine shafts are weak.
See where I'm going? Light, small, can go everywhere. But you can't load them up and go tour Africa...
You would need to beef up the entire drivetrain and, in the end, you would be better off building a whole new vehicle.
@@megarafjogos You can tour Africa on a motorcycle. Sure you can in a Jimny as well if you want to. It will easily carry what you need for two persons.
As an owner of an 2006 LR3 I feel your pain, a slight water leak from the sunroof shut down my vehicle for 2 months. (granted my schedule, only allowed 1 hour a day at best to diagnose it). After tearing apart half of the interior and testing every spliced connection I could find (which were cheaply done, merely crimped and wrapped in loose tape) I finally found the issue in the CANBUS wiring. Once again, it drives like a dream. I am building the vehicle up for a trek along the Trans American trail, which I want some creature comforts for. I absolutely love my Land Rover, but… if your not handy with a multimeter or mechanically inclined, the Land Rover may not be the best option,. they are however, an exceptional ride off road. On the bright side in America, they are cheaper than jeeps and cast the same to maintain.
I really dislike that we feel like we need to justify our opinions because a few people don’t like other people disagree. You’ve done a good job explaining why the new defender isn’t a suitable replacement of the dependable workhorse that can go anywhere. Sadly the farmer/explorer is no longer the market audience.of the defender.
Good video Andrew, I’m a LandRover lover & a 70 series owner and I agree with you 110%
Hammond said what everyone Car enthusiast was thinking, and it was the truth.
Love your videos. You would make an amazing preacher! Full of passion and conviction. You’re a legend!
Vic, appreciated. Probably both the old and new Defenders would be OK on say a serious trip in Australia. But I’m a bit cautious!!! I live in a rural part of Ireland and in Australia. It’s really striking that the vast majority of farmers do not put their money on old Defenders but on the competition 4WDs and utes. What matters to them when you ask is primarily reliability and the parts and service network. Being a cautious old so and so I would go with the majority - but I do like the quirkiness of simpler old vehicles which is why I have a Morgan.
100% totally correct. BIG Corporates can never ever work out what the real person wants.
Big corporations have executives with big egos, but no brains.
I'd have to disagree, they've actually designed what the most 'common' person wants... They're in the business to make money.
@@Nick-xc4fy I somewhat agree with you, but if they are aiming for what the common person wants, in my opinion, Land Rovers would be more common on American roads.
@@crzy4x4 The problem with the American market is that it's already full with the Jeep, Ford and a few others. I think, from what I've seen there's still been quite a lot of interest in the new Defender in the states despite this. Don't forget though, even the 110 version is not that big compared to other cars in the US, so I think JLR always knew that the US wasn't going to be its biggest market.
I dont mind, the price of a used classic Defender jumped 30%.
That’s probably less than the jump in the resultant theft rate.
I love your reviews i dont own any 4x4 i just watch because i get lots of knowledge and your channel is entertaining. I live in kenya someday i will get one i have been inspired by you
Absolutely well put. We need simple practical work horses. Thank you for telling them the truth.
meanwhile Lada Niva is laughing. was created perfect from the beginning
I've looking at getting a Lada but I don't think they make right hand drive 😭
Except for the rust!
Hi Andrew, as another Land Cruiser owner for my on-land expeditions, I'm also an avid ocean sailor. Absolutely I know and can concur of what you feel when you say that you're on your own in the wild. Nobody can come get you when sometime breaks. While ocean going sailing yachts have had their "electrics outfitted" trend over the years, there is always a manual backup for when it fails offshore. While the latest sailing yachts have a lot of electronics, but when those fail, they can still be sailed manually to get to where you need across an ocean. However, in the case of the Defender in the wilderness, if a electronic mechanism failed, it would likely strand you and let you to starve.
OFF topic SC14, in your HONEST OPINION, 'spinning Ball', or Flat earth???
I would Really APPRECIATE your reply. I Mean it.
Sincere regards.
May 2021: Here in Germany, Land Rover dealers are offering the Defender Model 20 as a demonstration vehicle with around 3000km at a 15-20% discount. Apparently nobody buys. The old 110 on the other hand goes away like hot cakes as we Germans say. it was foreseeable. I hope for Land Rover that they will soon go back to their roots, otherwise it would be a shame. Really great channel, keep it up
The true feeling in total addressed in authentic and honest words! 👍 It doesn't get any clearer. Not sure they really (want to) understand this message.
5-door Jimny for under $40k is on the horizon. would have started production already if not for covid
And don't forget you can whack on a Little D Defender body kit 🤣 manofmany.com/rides/cars/turn-your-jimny-into-a-defender-with-a-little-d-body-kit?amp
It will be very popular but it's still a little small when it comes to travelling. I think the Grenadier looks too small as well.
Suzuki had built defender looks jimnys.....more better than land rover designer built the new defender.
In wouldn't get one if it's the same with, too skinny, easy flip
And a Jimny commercial for Europe!