I still believe the BIGEST problem with pokemon us the Yearly release structure and the clear rushing of the series. They have the money to make a crazy expensive game but with out TIME they cant do anything with that money
@@TheMalikp1 yes but they are releasing multiple games a year and developing so much at the same time! During sun and moons development we can assume that they where developing let's go, SWSH, Little Town Hero, and soon after SM release USUM AT THE SAME FUCKING TIME!!! I Don't get why people use the "3 Year development time" excuse completely ignore the fact that the developqment team of 169 as of 2022! Even less than that back in 2016 working on 4 projects at once if not more MIGHT BE A BAD THING?! And yes creatures inc dose work on the modles and such but still Gamefreak is doing way to much
Something you're missing about the backlsh for the modes being reused is that they used remaking the models from scratch as an excuse for cutting pokemon transferability. it wasn't because they reused them, but because they LIED about reusing them to justify less content. that was the entire point of the backlash.
This is the big thing, people would not care if the models were reused, most people know the quality of the models were built for something stronger then a 3ds, it’s why the battles lagged so much. But gamefreak was saying that they remade each model from scratch, only for them to blatantly lie about it.
Exactly, people keep missing this fact No one actually cares, they just hate being lied to so blatantly If they just said the dex would be cut because they dont have the time to balance every one people would be mad but it would be the truth, what they did left them opening to be scanned up and down for problems
I will forever defend that Gen 5 was peak in Pokémon’s fusion if a 3D world with 2D sprites, the 2.5D being the best way to feel like the world was big and vibrant while keeping a unique style.
I personally liked HGSS's style of graphics better. While most areas in Unova looked great, I remember the outside of the celestial tower and a few other buildings looking out of place.
I agree. It’s why I’m quickly getting drawn to Octopath Traveler-3D game with 2D sprites. It gives me serious Pokémon Black and White aesthetic and I LOVE that. I should play it!
I genuinely think that all the 3d pokemon stuff before gen 6 was actually pretty good. Stadium, Colossuem, XD: Gale of Darkness, and Battle Revolution all had pretty damn good animations that helped sell it. And I think I can actually pinpoint the number one thing I miss from those games. In those games, the pokemon react to getting hit. Gen 6 onward, the pokemon barely even react to getting hit.
Another thing to say about 2D games especially with gen 2 that the sounds that were used for the attacks were dynamic and memorable as well in a way, especially with moves like hyper beam in gen 2 or ice beam in gen 3.
Even though it wasn't that well sold, BW2 really had a lot of good content and stuff to do after completing the game... Plus that game was surprisingly challenging for Nuzlockes, even more so with Black version, which had HARD MODE...
I still don't understand why the newer pokemon games don't have difficulty options similar to the Gen 5 games. It would give the newer and younger players an easier time playing the game, allowing them to get used to the mechanics and whatnot, while also giving seasoned veterans a good challenge.
@@youdarnweebsgetoffmylawn Difficulty options in BW2 were awful. You needed to beat the game to unlock them, transfer the difficulty option to a different cartridge because restarting the game would delete the difficulty setting and on top of that, Challenge Mode didn't even work. The pokemon may be higher leveled but their stats don't increase so playing Challenge Mode actually made the game easier.
@savvysamurai4810 So then why can't they just improve upon the system for later generations? Surely, GameFreak is more capable of making a better system than what happened in Gen 5, given how much money they make, and the fact that other games can do difficulty systems perfectly fine.
@@youdarnweebsgetoffmylawn Has anything GameFreak has done shown that they are in anyway competent? They make money because the fan base eats every crap they shit out.
Regarding the animations, I believe 3D Pokémon games could have been as good if not better than 2D Pokémon games if Game Freak bothered to fully utilise the potential for 3D rather than using it as a crutch.
The thing is I don't know if they even can; they're under a strict yearly deadline and are a team mostly experienced in 2D (their roots being in spritework and manga drawings), meaning they don't even have the Monolith Soft advantage of years of 3D experience (nor the amount of time Monolith usually has to develop Xenoblade). I have a feeling Monolith is the main reason Legends already feels like a step above; I recall they helped with that game. But for Game Freak alone it is a tall order, and visibly even more experienced devs (as seen by BDSP) struggle under the same deadline.
They are better, the 2D games didn't exactly have animations to begin with. Stretching the sprites was pretty much the entire animations. On Pokémon which only at a certain angle.
As for my preference I do loke both 2D and 3D. The animated Black and White sprites were great. But I also love the Colosseum Style of Models. The idle animation may not be anything amazing but loke the attack animation knock my socks off truthfully. Look at your first partner in XD Gale of Darkness. That flashy little Eevee goes hard. I would love to see a combination of like Colosseum and Arceus style animation. I think that would be absolutely amazing
idk, Gengar going spastic in its idle animation is just still very entertaining. xD It's like in order to make sure they weren't dead they had a sudden burst of electrictity running through them... oh wait I was talking about "Pokemon Colosseum" the n64 one... you were talking about the GCN one. My bad. xD
I can see that; if mainline 3D Pokemon battles were on the level of Battle Revolution, they'd already feel so much cleaner. Sure, that's at least 4 more animations (attack, special attack, KO animation, and redone idle animations) to add to every Pokemon, but that would be a decent reason for something like Dexit: so they can focus on whichever Pokemon they are including in said game first and foremost, leaving the rest for a later game.
YES!!!! I have been saying this since octopath came out. Also now with the mess that was bdsp the idea of remakes being given to third parties has been set
@@Jdudec367 That would work if pokemon gave more than a year of development to each game, but I prefer a ended, more beatifull and close world, than an incomplete 3d open world
I always dreamed of a pokemon game that was 2d massive and sprawling with dungeons and multiple regions since if graphics arent the main focus the world cna be so much bigger and more fleshed out. Also a new battle system is direly needed
Agreed, personally I want to see a 2d game with ALL the criminal organizations operating and feuding cross regions while we get to duke it out with any and all gym leaders who scale based on badge count cross region, add a few more required for pokemon higher level to respect you and a recognition of you choosing a weaker team to adjust back down if you want to and keep "events" separate and native rather than weekly/monthly.
The Pokémon sprites used to be so expressive and I really feel like ILCA wanted to do that with BDSP but couldn'tsince they were rushed. Especially looking at the Pokédex and how some Pokémon were given their Diamond and Pearl spites in 3D form like Biberal actually sitting and looking goofy, but meanwhile in battle, it's just...standing there.
The biggest problems with the 3D models for me are the models and colours. Put simply, the poses in the older games were more dynamic and interesting. Gen 4 I feel like was when they really hit their stride with cool dynamic posing. Move to 3D and there are so many examples of downgrades, Typhlosion and the victims of "constantly flying syndrome" are prime examples. "But their attack animations are better" yeah but I'd rather my Pokemon always look ready to battle when in a battle. The colours are almost as big a problem. Remember Starmie's vibrant purple, what about Parasect's mushroom. These and many others for most of 3D Pokemon were desaturated and were worse off for it. Not to mention how many shinies were ruined. I just feel like Pokemon was firm in their footing with what they wanted from 2D and haven't fully found it yet in 3D.
For the bit about Pyro Ball being neutered in gen 9 people will say because you can move the camera which... makes no sense... its actually because of raids being active time based and they butchered A LOT of signature move animations to account for it Which was honestly a wasted effort because they had a better solution they could've done from gen 8 right before it -_-
I think Pokémon's biggest mistake was saying you can no longer use any Pokémon you want. If it means we can have them all back, I'd eagerly take 2d titles again. Or at least give a couple more years of development time. We can wait.
More development time is sorely needed anyways. The move to 3D is functionally incomplete and there is a lot of polish issues, that come from the games being rushed. This series has a ton of potential in the 3D medium, it just can't achieve it with such a tight release cycle.
One of the reasons why BW are my favourite games are the Pokemon animations. The Pokemon don't seem to be still and atually seemed like living organisms and not robots.
@@gengargamer5657I could only afford the first one, playing 2 later in having the trainers animate as well as the pokemon was a great surprise. Both these are so cool, I really wish the idles got the attention they used to, especially when we see them follow us more than ever. More activity, but less "life".😢
I think 3D is much better. The new friendship mechanics like pokemon amie, pokemon refresh, pokemon camp and pokemon picnics have increased the level of inmersion with your pokemon to the point where it´s not even a contest. It's on a completely different level compared to sprites. You can play with them, you can feed them, clean them, heal them, bathe them, they can get close and interact with you directly, they can interact with each other and you can see /interact with more than one at the time and they even walk near you in the overworld. The pokemon have small reactions when they defeat a pokemon or when they´re just waiting for you to command the next attack, they can literally decide to join your team if they're wild pokemon while using some of the buddy time mechanics (like in pokemon camp). They can even show expressions like gettiing angry or scared of other pokemon which already is more personality than what you can get watching a sprite. Heck, have you seen pokemon like Sudowoodo, Passimian or Mr. Mime fainting animations? You have more personality there than in the basic movement of multiple sprites. Not to mention that with 3D the pokemon in the wild either run towards you or straigh up attack you, act curious towards you when they see you, they react when you whistle at them or flee from you based on what their personality is meant to portray. And what can you do with 2D sprites? Oh yeah, you can see them from the front or from the back doing a pose at best and unless you're going to use a potion on them or revive them you basically can only see them in battle. Also let's be real, if the pokemon company would´ve stayed with 2D sprites right now we´ll have a massive amount of "fans" whining about how pokemon is as big as it is and still doesn't do the jump to 3D yet. And people love to whine about moves like double kick or tackle on scorbunny, you know, those moves that you totally are going to keep in its moveset and not replace after the first 15 minutes of the game and forget that with 3D you get vastly superior inmersion when it comes to moves as well. Do you seriously think that moves like giga impact, flamethrower, thunderbolt or hyper beam are nearly as cool in 2D as they´re in 3D? Of course not. But sure, "3D moves look bad". Heck, you can't even see the face of your own avatar with 2D. While on the other hand with 3D you can custumize the player character to look like you. You can see your avatar throwing the pokeball to catch or battle againts other pokemon or trainers, you can even see the player character during battle and not just the back of the pokemon and you can also see the trainer doing movements when you order a pokemon to do a move. "Imagination" isn't a great argument when you consider that this kind of games heavily rely on connection to your team. And with 3D you get far more interactions which in turn, get you more connection because you can actually experience more things with them than just watching them from the back during battle. Sorry for the ridiculously long comment. I just wanted to share my opinion and I tend to write a lot sometimes.
Yes! Thank you! Every argument for 2D always boils down to their supposed "personality". But the 3D move animations can show just as much personality, not to mention each pokemon has like, 5 animations, starting from XY alone. Not to mention, how slow the 2D animations can be. I hate the constant animations of Gen 5. It needlessly slows down the battles, and the camera decides to zoom onto each pokemon when they attack (which looks extremely jarring as well) But to my mind, the best argument for 3D is that 2D pokemon games are still out there. I'll recommend Pokemon Xenoverse and Pokemon Realidea System as 2D pokemon games that are BETTER than the official games, even from a graphical standpoint. And you can go to Relic Castle and find new 2D pokemon games being uploaded regularly. There should be space for both 2D and 3D, and having the official games be 3D and fangames make 2D is a very fair compromise to me.
Someone had to say it. It annoys me at the fact on how people use that animations comment meanwhile most are just trying to skip it. Then there are the story comments meanwhile there's how they react with sun and moon with calling it boring while unlike other modern games tried to be challenging. When it had the most lore to the point of being like the black and white of its system. Though it should've had a cutscene skip feature for 2nd playthroughs.
That why I don’t like 3d as much they can do much more with it all they do is like run walk and some emoji and post that reuse like 5 time literally 3d animation use less time to do compare to do it in 2d and they also reuse it they have so much extra time to put into little like make mini ecosystem or at lest how they behave in Pokédex like let say Lurantis it an reverse Orchid mantis it a flower/plant that act like bug(mantis) and it use this as camouflage to get closer to an actual bug and attack them Tinkaton just make it throw some rock into the Corviknight etc. that would be so cool and not much time wasting since they already have all animations they need 3d is cool just to much wasted protential
@@maldivesthegamer9774 Dude, pokemon like Sableye literally attack carbinks when they appeared in hoards thanks to 3D. The same goes for pokemon like Zangoose and Seviper. The level of inmersion is on a completely different level. And the kind of thing you suggest would be imposible with 2D sprites for you to prefer it over 3D.
4:58 I mean Sega had it both ways with Sonic Mania and it worked out great, which is surprising considering the Sonic fandom never agrees on _anything._ Capcom had Mega Man 9 and 10 too. Course Sega leaned on fangame creators while Capcom had Inti Creates who made Mega Man Zero and Mega Man ZX and would go on to make other classic style 2D games like Azure Striker Gunvolt (a spiritual successor to Mega Man Zero and ZX), Blaster Master Zero and Bloodstained: Curse of the Moon (a spiritual successor to classic Castlevania).
In my honest opinion, either or work. They have their strengths and weaknesses. 2D lets you get away with more outlandish designs while 3D lets you have more fluid little animations.
If we need to do a 3D pokemon game I'd like it to do an approach similar to the Mystery dungeon Rescue team remake. It must keep to the core of it's style without compromise to animation.
I feel PLA also walked this line pretty well, as shitty as the graphics were but even here, we can see how whatever forces are involved at Gamefreak force em to pump out games like there's no tomorrow
This may be my Gen 5 bias kicking in, but I absolutely loved the Gen 5 sprites. They were high quality and very detailed, with spritework already being much harder to perfect than modeling, and the added movement they had gave them that feeling of life that we would get from 3D models. It’s kinda funny how, other than in Legends Arceus, the Gen 5 pixel sprites have more movement to them than in the 3D games.
I also feel like the game's art direction is suffering from 3D as well. Not the graphics but like the art style. Things are becoming less stylized and more.. realistic? I don't know how to explain it.
I would say more bland, since they have to work with not just the time limitations but also the outdated hardware. Things may have color but it looks bland and uninteresting. If you want to see what a "realistic look" can accomplish with its own art style, check street fighter 6.
@@hickknight There's a reason why Kirby and the Forgotten Kingdom is great, because Hal Laboratory said that Kirby's mouthful mode was the reason they Kirby in 3d. Meaning that you need to have a gameplay reason as to why a series should be in 3d. With Pokemon and Fire Emblem I'm not sure. When a series is being 3d for the sake of it, that's a bad sign.
If Pokémon returned to the top down 3d style they could massively increase the size of the world map giving us more places to explore and more overall content.
The best move animation that got lost overtime, to me at least, was Roar of Time. The sound and animated explosions in gens 4 and 5 made it feel powerful, having the impact we crave. Now, this impact just doesn’t feel like it hits that itch I want from it.
I think we should go about half/half. Use 2d for areas where it would add style, such as with the pokemon, trainers, and some overworld sprites, but use 3d in the map and background design to add some extra depth. We had it with gens 4 and 5, so it shouldnt be difficult to do.
When people try to argue that 2D is better they're downplaying several of the best Pokemon games in the series: Stadium 1 & 2, Colosseum, Gale of Darkness, and Battle Revolution. Someone's already explained it in the comments. The issue isn't the dimension it's that the games simply need more time in the oven.
I'm no Pokemon expert, thus, I don't have much to offer. However, Putting down 3d Pokemon simply because it's 3d is wrong. The games should be judged based on their merits, and not because they're 3d. I get it. You have a bias. from Nostalgia, and from an artistic point of view. But 3d shouldn't be shunned for simply being 3d. It's fault of the people above. The ones who are giving the orders to the people who work in these games. Blame them. Meaningless conflict is useless. And yeah, Your title is annoying. Yet, I do not know why. I'm neutral when it comes to Pokemon I guess.
I said this on Twitter, but I don't think GameFreak is up there yet to justify the jump from 2D to 3D. Many graphical features they offered are either novelties or can be replicated in a 2D or 2.5D setting (Gen 5 will always be peak in that regard). To be fair to GameFreak at least, they are slowly learning and they are catching up. However, the audience nowadays does not appear to have the patience for that, and I do suspect that perhaps people have been spoiled with how the jump to a new system is basically an upgrade in and of itself.
It's more that it should've been a given that the graphics would be upgraded. Spoiled? Possibly. But I can't help but think that there was a better way to handle this transition than what has happened with the current 3D games. I can say 1 thing though. I had a blast with Legends. And that game wasn't that graphically appealing. I guess I'm more in the camp of wanting something different for Pokémon nowadays.
@@hickknight Personally I just think that they should just be given more time. It not just with series but games being rushed like this in a yearly release fashion would've worked in the ps1 to ps2 era(and even then that was stressful ask insomniac games) but it's just not going to cut it these days.
The funniest thing about it is that Pokemon could work so well in 3D, especially in an open world style. It's just the lacking execution compared to before.
@@paulman34340 Actually Pokemon Colosseum did get a follow up called Pokemon XD: Gale of Darkness. After that there was Pokemon Battle Revolution for the Wii although it got rid of the story of the previous two games and was more like the first two Pokemon Stadium games. Once main series Pokemon went to 3D I assume Game Freak saw that Pokemon no longer needed 3D spin offs. It's a shame two since Pokemon Colosseum and Pokemon XD: Gale of Darkness had the most unique stories in Pokemon yet.
I think Pokemon had this formula of 2d and 3d figured out in gens 3&4.Use the 2d sprites for the main game series, and save the 3d animation for the colosseum/strory driven games on the consoles.
A very interesting thing about scarlet and violet when it comes to idle animations, if i remember correctly, they actually changed how lucario idles in battle to a more fight ready stance, so, while i shouldnt be hopeful, it could be possible that if the developers are given time to flesh out the games, they can make much more dynamic Pokémon, at the very least with better poses other than just standing.
for me, the graphics and animation has not been an issue, as I have looked more for what I can experience, play around with and challenge myself with of new stuff. That is also why I dont look down as much on gen 6 as others do (while not being as enthusiastic about gen 5 as others). They have become easier (which is annoying as hell), but I only really noticed it with gen 7, as it is way more handholdy. I can also look past the reuse of models and animation, if it means that the game can deliver more on the side. This is why I really have alot of issues with gen 8 and 9, as games. If I were to give gamefreak some advise I would say: 1) stop the handholding and give us the possibility to fail back. 2) get some better data- and software engineers. If you can cut corners to save time and space and still deliver inferior games, you need to improve. 3) (I am preaching to the choir on this one, but) give your team more time to develope the games. that might actually save most of the headaches that we have. 4) remove the exp. candy, make it possible to turn off the exp. share again and make raqre candy actually rare. seriously, in my playthrough of gen 8, all of my pokemon were lvl 100 BY THE 8TH GYM! There is no shame in grinding.
The funny thing is that the original 3D pokemon games did give there pokemon some personality like they reacted to being hit or when sent out or fainted and this patten kept going until Battle revolution where afterwards they used the new animations whitch lacked a lot of the personality
@@remor698 And it's funnier considering that in the spinoffs cases they too reused the models and animations from back in the n64 era and didn't have to change much the longer it went on except in PBR's case literally have the moves make contact
2D is better. Gen 4/5 are still the undisputed champions of pokemon at its pinnacle. The yearly releases are really screwing them and the fact they went into a console competing with great games like Mario Odyssey, Metroid Dread, Zelda BotW+TotK, and Xenoblade..... Pokemon is the 4 foot chubby rich kid picking a fight with 7 foot basketball players and then gets surprised when he gets a super atomic wedgie. Pokemon has been dragged through the mud. It may make money but it gets no respect or love.
I Strongly Disagree & Here's Why: 1. As Someone who likes to make his characters look like himself for his NSO profile; I Love that ever since gen 6; Character Customization has become a Mainstay; since CHARACTER CUSTOMIZATION WASN'T POSSIBLE FOR THE PLAYERS PRIOR TO GEN VI in 2D; Aka the FIRST 3D Generation 2. Fairy-type Pokemon were Introduced in Same Generation where the games became 3D; Which Gave a MUCH NEEDED Nerf to the Overpowered Dragon-type 3. I Prefer 3d to 2d; 2D Games HAVE NO DEPTH; THAT'S WHY THEY'RE 2D; Because they only have TWO Dimensions; Length & Width but literally have ZERO Depth; they're flat!
I’m gonna be honest the “Pokémon Octopath Traveler” is the new Nintendo Hire this man where it’s just a 3D Mario in a hyper realistic field. It looks insanely unappealing and just feels so bland. I don’t get the Octopath style hype it just looks bad
I’d argue that the Gen 6 games, essentially 2.5D games, are also among the best there is. It’s no coincidence that they were the last games before the 2015 hiatus
I always find it funny when people talk about aesthetics and animations when I eventually turned animations off for regular gameplay to decrease grind time for battles, whether it be for EV training or BP grinding.
While I agree the actual pokemon have suffered from the transition to 3d, on undeniable improvement i feel was to the actual trainers themselves. Using sword and shield as examples theres hop and Leons cute little face pats to psych themselves up qnd show their connections, Bedes smug look as he checks his watch during the battle, the look of desperation on Chairman Rose before his fight as he looks at his pokeball, and the fire that lights up in Kubus eyes when he axtivates a Gigantamax. The transition to 3D made every trainer and gym leader into a much more e pressive character that before hand was locked to only a single image that youd see before and after a battle and thats it.
To be honest I feel like both 2D and 3D have their pros and cons. For 2D sprites for the Pokemon and trainers I absolutely love Gen 2 but for overworld Gen 5 is where it's at. Gen 9 is improving on the older models (finally) but as far as the overworld 3D aesthetic I love Gen 6, LGPE, and BDSP! What I don't like so far about 3D Pokemon is just trying to make everything seem so close to the real world. Like I want the colorfulness of the Pokemon not boring ugly realism. Like where's the whimsy that was Ballonlea Town from Swsh?? 3D could work if there wasn't always this weird combination of rushing everything mixed with a bit of laziness and realism. Pokemon should be fantastical not boring.
Gen 6 definitely had my favourite art style, all the buildings and backgrounds were soo detailed and hold up amazing today, the customisation was great and pss is the best. And the 3d art style definitely was the best in gen 6.
To the best of my knowledge no one really cared that models were being until after GF said the sorry state of SWSH was because of effort put to models... Which was a lie.
I think with 3 things they could do to make it much better, 1.) Better Camera have the camera follow with skake and stuff. 2.) Better idle animations 3.) Fix the animation of some moves/ fix where particles come from I think with these changes people would love how they look like how people like how stadium colosium and such look. Like imagine if as a fire punch comes you can see the wind up as the camera locks on the pokemon and seems to zoom in before snapping across to show a powerful punch effect with flames, shaking the screen. I am not the best when it comes to it but i fee like those changes would make a massive difference
I think the 2D vs. 3D debate is a moot point because there are no good outcomes. We have seen all the criticism GF gets by going 3D, yet, had they decided to keep the 2D art-style going, then they would have gotten criticized for stagnating and not taking the "obvious" next step by going 3D.
I think the problem is that the series is still stagnating. It has made the move to 3D in terms of world and visual medium, but the majority of the gameplay loop and art direction is still running off of the limitations of 2D. They only went half way, resulting in a state of things, where the series somehow feels more stagnant than if it had stuck to refining the 2D style to its absolute limit. Unfortunately, taking that second step to complete the move to 3D and leave none of the actively detrimental 2D based design philosophies remaining would take way more time than the series' release cycle allows for.
@@remor698 *"but the majority of the gameplay loop..."* Thing is that, thanks to the competitive scene, they cannot heavily change this aspect without losing years of progress and angering a lot of people. *"...taking that second step to complete the move to 3D and leave none of the actively detrimental 2D based design philosophies remaining would take way more time than the series' release cycle allows for."* Exactly, not helped by the fact that Pokemon is a multi-media franchise and its other branches require the Main Games to release on schedule.
It is clear the the pressures of developing a 3D game for a studio previously known for 2D spritework, coupled with the stresses of a yearly release schedule is having a detrimental effect on the quality of Pokemon games. I personally would like it if they could have a spin-off series of 2D games. Have one team within the company make the main series 3D games every 2-3 years, and then have a smaller team work on the more traditional 2D games to fill the release schedule. Given that the development time and storage size of 2D assets would be reduced compared to the 3D ones, maybe we could have the full Pokedex in the 2D games. Though if every Pokemon has a compatible game to be transferred to then fewer people are going to pay the ransom to keep their Pokemon in Home.
Personally I don’t think 3D killed pokemon, the Pokémon company’s sweatshop level deadlines did, if the Pokémon team had the time the Zelda team does to make games they would definitely have been able to deliver an amazing 3D Pokémon game, I mean he’ll look at SV, buggy and unpolished as hell bug considering how crunched the time it was to make it turned out good, all it needed was a solid amount more time in the oven to polish the gameplay, graphics, and beta testing for glitches
It certainly seems that way, considering how much of the game design is still stuck running off of the limitations of the 2D games, when those are very much no longer a thing. The move to 3D is actually incomplete, only affecting visual medium and the world design so far, but nothing about the main battle system and actual art direction really does anything with the fact, that things are in 3D now.
I like the direction they were going with the 3D games, but if they’re going to put games out at the rate they are now, then it should probably stick to 2D. I enjoyed Pokémon Violet, but the execution for the 3D environment wasn’t really up to the standard it needed. I just think that what needs to be done is put 3D to one side for now and just stick to the Standard Pokémon formula Great vid as always man 👍
I don't mind 2D or 3D pokemon I just wish the games were more polished because legends arceus and SV have shown us there is still creativity in these games but its execution is just bad considering we have such amazing games on switch but pokemon for some reason still struggles to get it down. I still love pokemon and I will still buy the games but I can't really blame people for liking 2D more since the games were more consistent compared to now where it feels like a gamble. Once again I love both styles but I'm starting to lean towards 2D more because gen 5 was just the best way to convey pokemon the animated sprites were top notch and still holds up today.
i think the pokemon stadium and XD: Gale of darkness games show that game freak is fully capable of making the pokemon much more expressive, even if back then 3D animation was much more limited- i really hope they can start implementing the kinda animations you described even if it takes awhile for a new game to come out- it honestly be a breath of fresh air if they took more time to develop games in general tbh,,
@@UncannyEXP i mean, they were still made under their property's name so its not impossible to see what the other ppl did in that game and take inspiration, it also just shows doing such expressive animations in 3D back when they didnt have the advanced tools we have now is very possible and should be easier to do nowadays- game freak just doesnt do it out of laziness or time crunches- i think in general they need to stop pumping games every year and focus on making more high quality games that take longer to make since they arent like an indie studio and clearly have the money to do so :P
I will never know what song was used for that interrupt. The graphics were never really an issue for me. The difficulty balance was why I had to sit out an entire generation. In the days of 2D, the Pokemon anime was on afternoon cartoon network. That went a long way in stimulating the imagination when I was in the same place in game. It's fair to say I barely noticed the picture in front of me when the one in my head was at the wheel. There are advantages to having grown up during a time when we were forced to go outside to play.
When it comes to 2D VS 3D, I don't have a super strong preference. I can see your point of view, though. Recently, I was looking up info on hidden abilities of different SV mons and noticed their artwork. Some of the 3D models didn't translate from the artwork as well as they should have(Something I first noticed with Pawmot).
Just to extend on one point but, the reason people got so up in arms about the model reuse for Sword and Shield was the dex cut remember? And cause of that and the creators comments, you can be sure people would scrutinize it far more. We didn't gain anything from the reuse, we lost instead and then had to pay for it.
My biggest problem is that pokemon games' storytelling has evolved. I mean, we are still confined to only giving yes-or-no questions and answers. The games are telling (with hit-or-miss results) these grander stories but all we can ever respond with is yes or no, with no often resulting in the question being repeated until we say yes. Give us actual dialog choices. Another problem that I have with the change from 2d to 3d is that I think the overworld puzzles have been practically eliminated. I remember how child me felt so clever after figuring out some of the boulder puzzles, but the later games reduced Strength to pushing a Boulder in a hole right next to it.
@@michaelzemancik9612come on the story telling has grown in leaps and bounds, the Hoenn remakes told a much better story for example, only gen 5 really matches the 3D entries storywise.
Both 2D and 3D have their appeal , though I have to say I'm more a fan of _how_ each generation uses those styles. Case in point, the side games: for 2D the Pokemon Mystery Dungeons are just charming in the 2D with the mix of the animation work and character expressions, while for 3D Pokemon XD: GoD knew how to use it's 3D animations to give their Pokemon the right OMPH with their attacks, and the creativity of the use of 3D assets to make locations was great as ever despite the limitations of such at the time. Really, I'd say that 3D Pokemon probably would be a great improvement over 2D if Gamefreak and Nintendo gave their devs the time and resources needed to make that fully realized, fleshed out world and mechanics that 3D games need, but given how the company priorities momentum and sales....yeah, that is not going to happen until the IP starts flagging hard enough for a hail mary effort to be warrented.
tbh i honestly want to hear you talk about all the metroid games seems like a interesting rabbit hole to dive down. and yes i prefer the 2d games over 3d i didn't mind x & y but overtime the games have became rather stale or have loads of potential but lack development time.
I kinda agree - 3D Pokémon games aren't inherently a bad idea, and looking at some of the 2.5D elements of generations 4 & 5, it was a direction they were always going to go into. That being said, Pokémon went 3D at the same time it started making a lot of decisions that were either objectively bad, or just decisions I didn't like. I miss the HM puzzles, it added more gameplay depth to the overworld, and helped Pokémon feel like more than just battle machines! I miss the unique sprites, it added so much more personality to each individual generation! I miss the branching pathways and sidequests, there was just more to do in the old games, and it made the towns feel more lived in and real! There were also a lot of things in Pokémon that 2D games could get away with, that's harder to believe on HD 3D games (no dialogue, Pokémon's bleeping battle cries, the battle animations, as MangaKamen said). X & Y kind of got away with these, because they still had 2D Pokémon's design philosophy, but from Sun and Moon onwards, I can't help but notice how much Pokémon was falling behind its triple A peers.
What I'd like to see is pokemon going actually the full way to 3D, because what we have right now is functionally the 2D games with 3D visuals and open world. A lot of what the 2D games have introduced into the design philosophy of the mainline series is based in the limitations of 2D, which no longer apply, so there is now a lot to be overhauled in order for things to no longer feel outright lazy. I mean, the 3D medium has the potential to full on play like how the pokemon anime looks, the problem is just that getting to that point would take way more time than the devs have for each new generation's release, so that is highly unlikely to actually ever happen unless there is some massive shift in managment.
For me I like both personally I’m someone who’s very open to changes or different styles so I don’t mind if a pokemon game is 3D or 2D I’ll still play it and have fun.
3D is only the medium and has nothing to do with the quality of games. You can ofc prefer 2D sprites over 3D models or a general art style over another, thats totally fine. But lets be honest, Gamefreak got really lazy, pumping out games any other year right on point for the holiday sales. They see only the $$$ and dont give two shits about quality anymore because they know that people will buy and buy again no matter what state a game is in. I would bet your left ball that they would even fuck up 2D titles by now because its all about getting the games out as fast as possible, no matter how glitchy it is
Pre-emptive comment: I bet it's more about the battle presentation. The stricter technical limits meant they could only ever *abstractly represent* how moves specifically worked, but with animated 3D models we expect them to *literally depict* how those moves work. It's a losing proposition to begin with.
Honestly, both styles are cool and unique in their own ways, 2D having a great nostalgic factor and a lot of feelings and character shown on the characters and Pokemon, and 3D having some pretty cool environments and scenery and some of the gameplay is also cool to, I honestly like how you can actually see the Pokemon in the tall grass in the modern games compared to the old games and how some of the area's seem more natural, overall I could care less about the looks, I just want good Pokemon, not any poorly made looking Pokemon and recolors, unless of course the recolors look cool
I really like the 3D games, as I have been enjoying the titles on the Switch a lot despite what people say about them. Heck, even my favorite game in the series, Pokemon Moon, is a 3D game. Even then, when I refer to graphics in Pokemon, I have, and will always prefer how everything looks in Gen 5, those animated sprites add a lot of charm, and I would love to see how Pokemon that already have a lot of personality in 3D look in the style of Gen 5 sprites such as Incineroar, Cinderace, Hisuian Zoroark or Meowscarada.
I think they really missed a trick with the Gen 4 remakes. While we had the fancy 3d experimental Legends Arceus, BDSP could have been a jump back to 2D or to 2D-HD sprites. Gen 5 was just a glimpse of what we could have gotten in future instalments.
I wish I could argue for the other side of this discussion when there's positives to it, but I suck at criticism and I'm not a very social person. Honestly, there are some things I like that 3D Pokémon can do. I love the grooming simulations of Gen 6 and 7, I can raise more than six Pokémon at a time, item farming is a lot better, and my favorite change so far is no more real time-based events. YES! I've been replaying Platinum trying to get that freaking Munchlax for the team!! Time-based events are garbage! Berry farming sucks! Day and night encounters suck!! Legends Arceus helped the series graduate into Zelda's day and night cycles and I'm happier for it!
Everyone does wish Pokemon can get a break, even take bigger time to be made, alot of people point at gamefreak being lazy, but sadly it's the combination of Nintendo, gamefreak budget and the fans at the time want more pokemon. Gamefreak yes does make alot of money, but most of the money goes to Nintendo, and Nintendo wants more money so have them make more pokemon because people at the time want more of that, everyone know it wasn't like this before. All started around when the games move to switch which also when.. Nintendo become very greedy with their stuff but yet put lots of details to Mario and Zelda the two golden eggs which they don't want any backlashes to, I got more to say but this taken real long time
There's always a thing that bugs me the most is about the world itself. Because why it looks so boring? It's a world with magical creatures with crazy abilities, but they live mostly in generic forests, plains and deserts. Of course, there's always exceptions, but most of the time, the world looks really boring. And I don't like the direction that Game Freak takes toward realism, instead of stylization. Because Pokémon themselves are cartoony and with unrealistic proportions and biology, which is a opposite of realism. That especially noticeable in Sc/Vi. Seriously, why Game Freak can't do a stylized, magical world with cool environments?
so I am gonna answer this in two different parts: first, I am gonna point out a pokemon like Aggron. is Aggron's model bad? why does it look off? part of it is and maybe I am crazy that the head on the 3D model looks smaller, and the other is as you said dynamic posing. Aggron hunched a little in earlier games, making it look more imposing versus the "I'mma stand upright and swing my arms" idle we get. big difference. I feel like it isn't just a "3D" thing, I feel like there was some level of hand changing because the design for the badass metal Kaiju seems to have turned on it's head for me. second, something that sours me about "future proofing" and overall 3D pokemon is how each generation cuts more and more corners without bringing much to the table. Dexit is gonna be a valid topic of discussion and the Mamoswine in the room until people see the problem. the issue, at least for some of us isn't even that they cut out the nat dex (which they said they wouldn't do) but that they continued to cut even beyond that. we never had a return of seasons, or pokemon following you for almost 3 years into 3D. graphics and optimization have honestly gotten worse over time. less and less post game content and goodies around the world to find as the gens went on. cutting of the movepool for "balance" when in fact it just made things feel worse. all of these have been in relation to what gamefreak and the defenders of the cut have stated for the cuts, and it has only gotten worse in some aspects. even being bold enough to talk about how much work it would be to implement every pokemon in each gen. TPCI has enough money to hire more employees for GF, or even make a whole ass separate team. they could eliminate crunch or even change some directive hands and hire a 3rd party to give them more time on a mainline game with a spinoff like colosseum again which could also be used to generate merch. I can keep spinning on all the things they haven't and couldn't do but at the end of the day the improvements I wanted in exchange for the thing I was forced not only by the devs but the community as a whole to accept with grade A mental gymnastics have not been met, and in fact have gotten worse. so what does this have to do with 2D vs 3D you ask? simple: I don't think it is naturally a "oh its 3D so it just looks bad because of it's inherit design" like some would say. it was a rushed out and haphazard decision for 500+ pokemon, and how the models were designed with no updates that I feel killed it. crunch and corner cuts are the hallmark of this series and it will be their death if it continues and I feel it every time I see a model. they do nothing to improve older models aside from texture (which, to SV's credit was super cool.). but a lot of the models look devoid of some sort of soul, hell the clunky colosseum and stadium models rife with size inaccuracies and full of dated clunk just feel more alive in movement and color alone to make me look past it. I don't expect a course correction, and I am not here to argue with whoever decides to get butthurt and try to tell me I am wrong because I brought up the sinful topic of dexit. I am here to point out what I see is the problem which is greed, laziness and incompetence egged on by complacency either because y'all will get upset over criticisms like this and just buy 2 copies when someone says they aren't buying the games, or they don't have proper competition to make them slow the merch roll and actually try to refine their product.
Pokemon Legends Arceus is my favorite game, but Black and White (especially the sequels B2W2) was the peak of pokemon, the 2D sprites and everything looked amazing.
Its such a shame we didnt go the Pokemon Colosseum route, it had such a badass design and the world felt real. Meanwhile Scarlet struggles doing half of what it could do. And iv never seen baby cubchoo sprite and holy shit its adorable and i would bever be able to KO it.
Biggest issue with graphics, animations, etc. is the sheer number of necessary assets for it. There are soooo many assets for all these Pokémon. You’d need a soft reboot with way fewer of them to do it authentically, like how BotW only had eight or so enemy types that reused models and animations.
The national dex has been cut and it hasn't been met well. And Pokémon animations are also difficult because you can't really reuse animations between most models like you would on say monster hunter
@@bri1085 It’s really hard. You would need a solid, clear cut reboot. Something like the Zelda team did with a “Let’s reimagine the first games as an open world experience, with only the first 151 Pokémon redone from the ground up.” I think people would be understanding should they be clear about their intentions instead of trying to fudge it like they did with SwSh.
@@tardissins7512 Fair, it wouldn't need to be a hard reset per se, just a scaled-down experience then expanding on the small roster over the game's lifetime. I don't think they can afford to not release new Pokémon for too long, the problem is the games more or less drive a billion dollar franchise, being where they release new Pokémon, which then get pushed out on other media.
You would probably *LOVE* Cassette Beasts! It has LOVELY music, including so many battle themes that have both an Instrumental and Vocal version, which changes depending on if you are fused with you partner character. You can *BECOME the Monsters you scan to fight more monsters!* And it's a 2D Open World Game! :D
My biggest complaint about the New Pokemon games, Gen6 onwards, is precisely the fact that any non-gen1 Pokemon can and WILL be shoved into obscurity... or even be cut out from the game altogether. Sometimes I make a New Team in Pokemon Showdown, but when I check if it fits the lastest generation, it always shatters my heart to read "(Pokemon) does not exist on Gen9"... thankfully I can still use them on National Dex, but it's honestly baffling because the Pokemon Games CAN afford bringing back EVERY missing Pokemon, and they choose not to because it's cheaper... and boy, cheaper it is... it's not like you're making new designs either, it's just a matter of translating some sprites into 3D, which shouldn't be an issue with the ludicrous budget TPC has (I wouldn't be surprised if they don't share it with GameFreak)... Also most Pokemon don't really have the charm they used to in 2D, being less energetic and less vibrant... the downgrade is notorious.
My main problem with the transition from 2D to 3D is they had, in terms of animation quality, they had to take several steps back. If they had the same level of animation quality in gen 6 as they did in gen 5, I would be fine, cause those animations, while rough, were highly energetic and added to the atmosphere of the battles. But they are only now starting to reach that level after 4 gens, and only with the new Pokemon, not bothering to touch up older ones, or even maintain ones post-transition.
2D is better. I do agreed about Older Pokemon have their expressive personalities in the 3D mainline games pokemon games. They feel less expressive compare to side games like Stadium, Coliseum and XD darkness. It could be there no need to to update expressiveness for older pokemon, cause there a lot of pokemon.
I would love to see another 2d pixel art pokemon game - there is a lot of good competition here, with games like Coromon, Monster Crown, Nexomon or Monster Sanctuary really scratching the itch but (though they're sometimes even better) its never the same as *real* pokemon games. It'd be a dream to see a fully open world like s/v translated into pixel art.
Also the heat for the reused models in Gen 8 was because Junichi said they were cutting the dex to and I quote, “completely redo the models and animations and make them higher quality.” Which immediately they were caught in their lie. People weren’t upset they were reusing models, they were pissed Gamefreak lied to them about why they cut the dex. It was later found out Gen 8 was originally intended for the 3DS not the switch because Gamefreak assumed the Switch would fail... so when it didn’t they had to port their work to the switch. I honestly feel bad for the people that work under these bafoons
Is it any wonder why pokemon fangames, one's that primarily use engines or softwares such as RPG maker, have such popularity and general enjoyment across its community, while the 3d stuff are, though still good, not as desirable by comparison. Call it simplicity, or preference towards the nostalgic, but why need to be fancy when you could be simple, but not uncomplicated. Examples of some fangames would be ones like Insurgence or Reborn.
I feel like the issue at moment with 3d Pokemon there isn't a definitive art style for each game at least in my opinion and at least in 2d Pokemon we had that kinda but I think the issue with the pokemon models became a massive problem in sword and shield where Gamefreak realize that they can release something half made and still make profit which don't get me wrong other companies are guilty of it too but I see it a lot with Gamefreak because let's not forget the release that was scarlet and violet but that's my two cents
Sword and Shield wasn't really half made. Nor would GF do that. Was it rough? Yes, I won't deny that. But that's just them needing more time than anything else.
@Jean Gomez 3D monster catcher/tamer games was thing before Gen 6. Pokémon probably influence it because of how popular it is but that's it. Even then that didn't stop other devs from mixing it up, or keep 2D.
@@neon13602 Oh that? That's been a thing before Sword and Shield as well. Not just from them, but Nintendo, SEGA, etc. A lot of companies are guilty of that. Thankfully patches exist, but I don't think it looks good relying on them most of time, especially if Scarlet and Violet is a result.
![Noob To Max With DRAGON REWORK In Blox Fruits [FULL MOVIE]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/LnBMOinoOvA/mqdefault.jpg)
I still believe the BIGEST problem with pokemon us the Yearly release structure and the clear rushing of the series. They have the money to make a crazy expensive game but with out TIME they cant do anything with that money
Yep! It's not that some franchises that went into yearly release schedules havent gone to shit rather fast.
*RIGHT UBISOFT!!!*
*3 in one year. Crazy, right?
@Gaming Warlord64 while I do believe getting an extra year can help, their development is like 3 years for these games
@Stephvon Dames Also true
@@TheMalikp1 yes but they are releasing multiple games a year and developing so much at the same time! During sun and moons development we can assume that they where developing let's go, SWSH, Little Town Hero, and soon after SM release USUM AT THE SAME FUCKING TIME!!! I Don't get why people use the "3 Year development time" excuse completely ignore the fact that the developqment team of 169 as of 2022! Even less than that back in 2016 working on 4 projects at once if not more MIGHT BE A BAD THING?! And yes creatures inc dose work on the modles and such but still Gamefreak is doing way to much
Something you're missing about the backlsh for the modes being reused is that they used remaking the models from scratch as an excuse for cutting pokemon transferability. it wasn't because they reused them, but because they LIED about reusing them to justify less content. that was the entire point of the backlash.
This is the big thing, people would not care if the models were reused, most people know the quality of the models were built for something stronger then a 3ds, it’s why the battles lagged so much. But gamefreak was saying that they remade each model from scratch, only for them to blatantly lie about it.
Exactly, people keep missing this fact
No one actually cares, they just hate being lied to so blatantly
If they just said the dex would be cut because they dont have the time to balance every one people would be mad but it would be the truth, what they did left them opening to be scanned up and down for problems
@@Castersvarogthey have been retextured
@@bri1085 In Scarlet and Violet. The textures look very similar in Sword and Shield to how they did on the 3DS, albeit in a higher resolution.
@@miimiiandco They really don't
I will forever defend that Gen 5 was peak in Pokémon’s fusion if a 3D world with 2D sprites, the 2.5D being the best way to feel like the world was big and vibrant while keeping a unique style.
I personally liked HGSS's style of graphics better.
While most areas in Unova looked great, I remember the outside of the celestial tower and a few other buildings looking out of place.
Gen 5 is objectively the only Gen you could quantifiably tell it's the worst with data and measurements
To the point that it's a meme if you watched SaltyDKDan's friend locke
I agree. It’s why I’m quickly getting drawn to Octopath Traveler-3D game with 2D sprites. It gives me serious Pokémon Black and White aesthetic and I LOVE that.
I should play it!
@@cocoabeanzwantstopuzzle Might as well get Octopath 2, that game has a day/night cycle similar to Pokemon.
I genuinely think that all the 3d pokemon stuff before gen 6 was actually pretty good. Stadium, Colossuem, XD: Gale of Darkness, and Battle Revolution all had pretty damn good animations that helped sell it. And I think I can actually pinpoint the number one thing I miss from those games. In those games, the pokemon react to getting hit. Gen 6 onward, the pokemon barely even react to getting hit.
Another thing to say about 2D games especially with gen 2 that the sounds that were used for the attacks were dynamic and memorable as well in a way, especially with moves like hyper beam in gen 2 or ice beam in gen 3.
They brought back the hyper beam sound, but yes, the gen 3 ice beam sound is iconic coming from a gen 3 fanboy
Even though it wasn't that well sold, BW2 really had a lot of good content and stuff to do after completing the game... Plus that game was surprisingly challenging for Nuzlockes, even more so with Black version, which had HARD MODE...
I still don't understand why the newer pokemon games don't have difficulty options similar to the Gen 5 games. It would give the newer and younger players an easier time playing the game, allowing them to get used to the mechanics and whatnot, while also giving seasoned veterans a good challenge.
@@youdarnweebsgetoffmylawn Difficulty options in BW2 were awful. You needed to beat the game to unlock them, transfer the difficulty option to a different cartridge because restarting the game would delete the difficulty setting and on top of that, Challenge Mode didn't even work. The pokemon may be higher leveled but their stats don't increase so playing Challenge Mode actually made the game easier.
@savvysamurai4810 So then why can't they just improve upon the system for later generations? Surely, GameFreak is more capable of making a better system than what happened in Gen 5, given how much money they make, and the fact that other games can do difficulty systems perfectly fine.
@@youdarnweebsgetoffmylawn Has anything GameFreak has done shown that they are in anyway competent? They make money because the fan base eats every crap they shit out.
BW2 was the last time they put heart on it.
Regarding the animations, I believe 3D Pokémon games could have been as good if not better than 2D Pokémon games if Game Freak bothered to fully utilise the potential for 3D rather than using it as a crutch.
The thing is I don't know if they even can; they're under a strict yearly deadline and are a team mostly experienced in 2D (their roots being in spritework and manga drawings), meaning they don't even have the Monolith Soft advantage of years of 3D experience (nor the amount of time Monolith usually has to develop Xenoblade).
I have a feeling Monolith is the main reason Legends already feels like a step above; I recall they helped with that game. But for Game Freak alone it is a tall order, and visibly even more experienced devs (as seen by BDSP) struggle under the same deadline.
I still believe that Game Freak just suck at 3D, and the best 3D games are the 2 stadiums just because the games actually don't look bad (for N64)
Nobody uses the potential of 3d anymore.
Technically we did get really great animations in the 3D Pokemon spin off games which have better animations than the main 3D Pokemon games.
They are better, the 2D games didn't exactly have animations to begin with. Stretching the sprites was pretty much the entire animations. On Pokémon which only at a certain angle.
As for my preference I do loke both 2D and 3D. The animated Black and White sprites were great. But I also love the Colosseum Style of Models. The idle animation may not be anything amazing but loke the attack animation knock my socks off truthfully. Look at your first partner in XD Gale of Darkness. That flashy little Eevee goes hard. I would love to see a combination of like Colosseum and Arceus style animation. I think that would be absolutely amazing
idk, Gengar going spastic in its idle animation is just still very entertaining. xD It's like in order to make sure they weren't dead they had a sudden burst of electrictity running through them... oh wait I was talking about "Pokemon Colosseum" the n64 one... you were talking about the GCN one. My bad. xD
I can see that; if mainline 3D Pokemon battles were on the level of Battle Revolution, they'd already feel so much cleaner. Sure, that's at least 4 more animations (attack, special attack, KO animation, and redone idle animations) to add to every Pokemon, but that would be a decent reason for something like Dexit: so they can focus on whichever Pokemon they are including in said game first and foremost, leaving the rest for a later game.
I always will defend that pokemon should go with 2.5 d HD, as octopath or triangle strategy. Much better than how they took the 3d
Yep
Pokemon would age better like this then in 3D.
YES!!!! I have been saying this since octopath came out. Also now with the mess that was bdsp the idea of remakes being given to third parties has been set
@@Jdudec367 That would work if pokemon gave more than a year of development to each game, but I prefer a ended, more beatifull and close world, than an incomplete 3d open world
@@Jdudec367 You mean Genius Senority right? If anything Game Freak proved that they suck at 3D.
I always dreamed of a pokemon game that was 2d massive and sprawling with dungeons and multiple regions since if graphics arent the main focus the world cna be so much bigger and more fleshed out. Also a new battle system is direly needed
Agreed, personally I want to see a 2d game with ALL the criminal organizations operating and feuding cross regions while we get to duke it out with any and all gym leaders who scale based on badge count cross region, add a few more required for pokemon higher level to respect you and a recognition of you choosing a weaker team to adjust back down if you want to and keep "events" separate and native rather than weekly/monthly.
The Pokémon sprites used to be so expressive and I really feel like ILCA wanted to do that with BDSP but couldn'tsince they were rushed.
Especially looking at the Pokédex and how some Pokémon were given their Diamond and Pearl spites in 3D form like Biberal actually sitting and looking goofy, but meanwhile in battle, it's just...standing there.
The biggest problems with the 3D models for me are the models and colours. Put simply, the poses in the older games were more dynamic and interesting. Gen 4 I feel like was when they really hit their stride with cool dynamic posing. Move to 3D and there are so many examples of downgrades, Typhlosion and the victims of "constantly flying syndrome" are prime examples. "But their attack animations are better" yeah but I'd rather my Pokemon always look ready to battle when in a battle. The colours are almost as big a problem. Remember Starmie's vibrant purple, what about Parasect's mushroom. These and many others for most of 3D Pokemon were desaturated and were worse off for it. Not to mention how many shinies were ruined. I just feel like Pokemon was firm in their footing with what they wanted from 2D and haven't fully found it yet in 3D.
For the bit about Pyro Ball being neutered in gen 9 people will say because you can move the camera which... makes no sense... its actually because of raids being active time based and they butchered A LOT of signature move animations to account for it
Which was honestly a wasted effort because they had a better solution they could've done from gen 8 right before it -_-
A quick battle/dynamic toggle might help. Just make raid use the quick animations only.
@@SgtPotShot max raid battles did that already
also the fact they think those animations would take too long but then u have the terastal animation which takes super long
@@Godzillakuj94 did they actually say that or is that a guess
@@DjPrimeVideos didn't say that but it's the main reason I can think they'd reduce them so much
I think Pokémon's biggest mistake was saying you can no longer use any Pokémon you want. If it means we can have them all back, I'd eagerly take 2d titles again. Or at least give a couple more years of development time.
We can wait.
More development time is sorely needed anyways. The move to 3D is functionally incomplete and there is a lot of polish issues, that come from the games being rushed. This series has a ton of potential in the 3D medium, it just can't achieve it with such a tight release cycle.
One of the reasons why BW are my favourite games are the Pokemon animations. The Pokemon don't seem to be still and atually seemed like living organisms and not robots.
BW2 are better
I want a remake now, but it's most likely coming out sometime during winter
@@gengargamer5657 "They act like 2 legends can't coexist."
--- Some dude when talking about BW and BW2
@@gengargamer5657I could only afford the first one, playing 2 later in having the trainers animate as well as the pokemon was a great surprise. Both these are so cool, I really wish the idles got the attention they used to, especially when we see them follow us more than ever. More activity, but less "life".😢
@@sdmblack1 ok
I think 3D is much better. The new friendship mechanics like pokemon amie, pokemon refresh, pokemon camp and pokemon picnics have increased the level of inmersion with your pokemon to the point where it´s not even a contest. It's on a completely different level compared to sprites.
You can play with them, you can feed them, clean them, heal them, bathe them, they can get close and interact with you directly, they can interact with each other and you can see /interact with more than one at the time and they even walk near you in the overworld.
The pokemon have small reactions when they defeat a pokemon or when they´re just waiting for you to command the next attack, they can literally decide to join your team if they're wild pokemon while using some of the buddy time mechanics (like in pokemon camp). They can even show expressions like gettiing angry or scared of other pokemon which already is more personality than what you can get watching a sprite. Heck, have you seen pokemon like Sudowoodo, Passimian or Mr. Mime fainting animations? You have more personality there than in the basic movement of multiple sprites.
Not to mention that with 3D the pokemon in the wild either run towards you or straigh up attack you, act curious towards you when they see you, they react when you whistle at them or flee from you based on what their personality is meant to portray.
And what can you do with 2D sprites? Oh yeah, you can see them from the front or from the back doing a pose at best and unless you're going to use a potion on them or revive them you basically can only see them in battle.
Also let's be real, if the pokemon company would´ve stayed with 2D sprites right now we´ll have a massive amount of "fans" whining about how pokemon is as big as it is and still doesn't do the jump to 3D yet.
And people love to whine about moves like double kick or tackle on scorbunny, you know, those moves that you totally are going to keep in its moveset and not replace after the first 15 minutes of the game and forget that with 3D you get vastly superior inmersion when it comes to moves as well.
Do you seriously think that moves like giga impact, flamethrower, thunderbolt or hyper beam are nearly as cool in 2D as they´re in 3D? Of course not. But sure, "3D moves look bad".
Heck, you can't even see the face of your own avatar with 2D. While on the other hand with 3D you can custumize the player character to look like you. You can see your avatar throwing the pokeball to catch or battle againts other pokemon or trainers, you can even see the player character during battle and not just the back of the pokemon and you can also see the trainer doing movements when you order a pokemon to do a move.
"Imagination" isn't a great argument when you consider that this kind of games heavily rely on connection to your team. And with 3D you get far more interactions which in turn, get you more connection because you can actually experience more things with them than just watching them from the back during battle.
Sorry for the ridiculously long comment. I just wanted to share my opinion and I tend to write a lot sometimes.
Yes! Thank you! Every argument for 2D always boils down to their supposed "personality". But the 3D move animations can show just as much personality, not to mention each pokemon has like, 5 animations, starting from XY alone.
Not to mention, how slow the 2D animations can be. I hate the constant animations of Gen 5. It needlessly slows down the battles, and the camera decides to zoom onto each pokemon when they attack (which looks extremely jarring as well)
But to my mind, the best argument for 3D is that 2D pokemon games are still out there. I'll recommend Pokemon Xenoverse and Pokemon Realidea System as 2D pokemon games that are BETTER than the official games, even from a graphical standpoint. And you can go to Relic Castle and find new 2D pokemon games being uploaded regularly. There should be space for both 2D and 3D, and having the official games be 3D and fangames make 2D is a very fair compromise to me.
Someone had to say it. It annoys me at the fact on how people use that animations comment meanwhile most are just trying to skip it. Then there are the story comments meanwhile there's how they react with sun and moon with calling it boring while unlike other modern games tried to be challenging. When it had the most lore to the point of being like the black and white of its system. Though it should've had a cutscene skip feature for 2nd playthroughs.
That why I don’t like 3d as much they can do much more with it all they do is like run walk and some emoji and post that reuse like 5 time literally 3d animation use less time to do compare to do it in 2d and they also reuse it they have so much extra time to put into little like make mini ecosystem or at lest how they behave in Pokédex like let say
Lurantis it an reverse Orchid mantis it a flower/plant that act like bug(mantis) and it use this as camouflage to get closer to an actual bug and attack them
Tinkaton just make it throw some rock into the Corviknight etc.
that would be so cool and not much time wasting since they already have all animations they need
3d is cool just to much wasted protential
@@maldivesthegamer9774
Dude, pokemon like Sableye literally attack carbinks when they appeared in hoards thanks to 3D. The same goes for pokemon like Zangoose and Seviper.
The level of inmersion is on a completely different level. And the kind of thing you suggest would be imposible with 2D sprites for you to prefer it over 3D.
@@giboit. I never say 2d can do that what I trying to say is there a lot of cool thing they could've done in 3d but they don't
4:58 I mean Sega had it both ways with Sonic Mania and it worked out great, which is surprising considering the Sonic fandom never agrees on _anything._ Capcom had Mega Man 9 and 10 too.
Course Sega leaned on fangame creators while Capcom had Inti Creates who made Mega Man Zero and Mega Man ZX and would go on to make other classic style 2D games like Azure Striker Gunvolt (a spiritual successor to Mega Man Zero and ZX), Blaster Master Zero and Bloodstained: Curse of the Moon (a spiritual successor to classic Castlevania).
In my honest opinion, either or work. They have their strengths and weaknesses. 2D lets you get away with more outlandish designs while 3D lets you have more fluid little animations.
If we need to do a 3D pokemon game I'd like it to do an approach similar to the Mystery dungeon Rescue team remake. It must keep to the core of it's style without compromise to animation.
I feel PLA also walked this line pretty well, as shitty as the graphics were but even here, we can see how whatever forces are involved at Gamefreak force em to pump out games like there's no tomorrow
@@bubblesofthecoast6393 The problem is that Gamefreak is understaffed, which is not bad when making 2d games. It is a problem when making 3d games.
This may be my Gen 5 bias kicking in, but I absolutely loved the Gen 5 sprites. They were high quality and very detailed, with spritework already being much harder to perfect than modeling, and the added movement they had gave them that feeling of life that we would get from 3D models. It’s kinda funny how, other than in Legends Arceus, the Gen 5 pixel sprites have more movement to them than in the 3D games.
I also feel like the game's art direction is suffering from 3D as well. Not the graphics but like the art style. Things are becoming less stylized and more.. realistic? I don't know how to explain it.
I would say more bland, since they have to work with not just the time limitations but also the outdated hardware. Things may have color but it looks bland and uninteresting.
If you want to see what a "realistic look" can accomplish with its own art style, check street fighter 6.
@@hickknight There's a reason why Kirby and the Forgotten Kingdom is great, because Hal Laboratory said that Kirby's mouthful mode was the reason they Kirby in 3d. Meaning that you need to have a gameplay reason as to why a series should be in 3d. With Pokemon and Fire Emblem I'm not sure.
When a series is being 3d for the sake of it, that's a bad sign.
I agree, the world in SV looks kinda ugly but the Pokémon at least look fine
If Pokémon returned to the top down 3d style they could massively increase the size of the world map giving us more places to explore and more overall content.
The best move animation that got lost overtime, to me at least, was Roar of Time. The sound and animated explosions in gens 4 and 5 made it feel powerful, having the impact we crave. Now, this impact just doesn’t feel like it hits that itch I want from it.
I think we should go about half/half. Use 2d for areas where it would add style, such as with the pokemon, trainers, and some overworld sprites, but use 3d in the map and background design to add some extra depth. We had it with gens 4 and 5, so it shouldnt be difficult to do.
4:58 I Will never understand the appeal of 2.5 HD. Hurts my freakin eyes! Looks like someone smeared Vaseline on the screen. Yikes! 👎
When people try to argue that 2D is better they're downplaying several of the best Pokemon games in the series: Stadium 1 & 2, Colosseum, Gale of Darkness, and Battle Revolution. Someone's already explained it in the comments. The issue isn't the dimension it's that the games simply need more time in the oven.
@FreezyNinja Not only are you wrong, but you're dumb, you're ugly, and also I slept with your mother last night.
I'm no Pokemon expert, thus, I don't have much to offer.
However, Putting down 3d Pokemon simply because it's 3d is wrong.
The games should be judged based on their merits, and not because they're 3d.
I get it. You have a bias. from Nostalgia, and from an artistic point of view.
But 3d shouldn't be shunned for simply being 3d.
It's fault of the people above. The ones who are giving the orders to the people who work in these games. Blame them.
Meaningless conflict is useless.
And yeah, Your title is annoying. Yet, I do not know why. I'm neutral when it comes to Pokemon I guess.
I said this on Twitter, but I don't think GameFreak is up there yet to justify the jump from 2D to 3D. Many graphical features they offered are either novelties or can be replicated in a 2D or 2.5D setting (Gen 5 will always be peak in that regard).
To be fair to GameFreak at least, they are slowly learning and they are catching up. However, the audience nowadays does not appear to have the patience for that, and I do suspect that perhaps people have been spoiled with how the jump to a new system is basically an upgrade in and of itself.
It's more that it should've been a given that the graphics would be upgraded. Spoiled? Possibly. But I can't help but think that there was a better way to handle this transition than what has happened with the current 3D games.
I can say 1 thing though. I had a blast with Legends. And that game wasn't that graphically appealing. I guess I'm more in the camp of wanting something different for Pokémon nowadays.
They were forced to do it
@@hickknight Personally I just think that they should just be given more time. It not just with series but games being rushed like this in a yearly release fashion would've worked in the ps1 to ps2 era(and even then that was stressful ask insomniac games) but it's just not going to cut it these days.
The funniest thing about it is that Pokemon could work so well in 3D, especially in an open world style. It's just the lacking execution compared to before.
@UnluckyNerd Why would they be pissed that a game in their franchise succeeded? Lmfao I think your thoughts are a bit misguided here.🤣
@@paulman34340 Actually Pokemon Colosseum did get a follow up called Pokemon XD: Gale of Darkness. After that there was Pokemon Battle Revolution for the Wii although it got rid of the story of the previous two games and was more like the first two Pokemon Stadium games. Once main series Pokemon went to 3D I assume Game Freak saw that Pokemon no longer needed 3D spin offs. It's a shame two since Pokemon Colosseum and Pokemon XD: Gale of Darkness had the most unique stories in Pokemon yet.
@@paulman34340battle revolutions isn't an upgrade on stadium.
i don’t think you need to say sorry. this is the coldest take ever.
I think Pokemon had this formula of 2d and 3d figured out in gens 3&4.Use the 2d sprites for the main game series, and save the 3d animation for the colosseum/strory driven games on the consoles.
This could be very strange, but i would like a pokemon game that is 2d in the overworld and 3d in battle.
A very interesting thing about scarlet and violet when it comes to idle animations, if i remember correctly, they actually changed how lucario idles in battle to a more fight ready stance, so, while i shouldnt be hopeful, it could be possible that if the developers are given time to flesh out the games, they can make much more dynamic Pokémon, at the very least with better poses other than just standing.
for me, the graphics and animation has not been an issue, as I have looked more for what I can experience, play around with and challenge myself with of new stuff. That is also why I dont look down as much on gen 6 as others do (while not being as enthusiastic about gen 5 as others). They have become easier (which is annoying as hell), but I only really noticed it with gen 7, as it is way more handholdy.
I can also look past the reuse of models and animation, if it means that the game can deliver more on the side. This is why I really have alot of issues with gen 8 and 9, as games.
If I were to give gamefreak some advise I would say:
1) stop the handholding and give us the possibility to fail back.
2) get some better data- and software engineers. If you can cut corners to save time and space and still deliver inferior games, you need to improve.
3) (I am preaching to the choir on this one, but) give your team more time to develope the games. that might actually save most of the headaches that we have.
4) remove the exp. candy, make it possible to turn off the exp. share again and make raqre candy actually rare. seriously, in my playthrough of gen 8, all of my pokemon were lvl 100 BY THE 8TH GYM! There is no shame in grinding.
I feel like the 3D Games can give more cinematic cutscenes, but the 2D Games give a bit more personal touch to the Pokemon sprites
The funny thing is that the original 3D pokemon games did give there pokemon some personality like they reacted to being hit or when sent out or fainted and this patten kept going until Battle revolution where afterwards they used the new animations whitch lacked a lot of the personality
It's crazy how the turn-based battle system of the mainline games has never looked better than in a spin-off game from over a full decade ago.
@@remor698 And it's funnier considering that in the spinoffs cases they too reused the models and animations from back in the n64 era and didn't have to change much the longer it went on except in PBR's case literally have the moves make contact
2D is better. Gen 4/5 are still the undisputed champions of pokemon at its pinnacle. The yearly releases are really screwing them and the fact they went into a console competing with great games like Mario Odyssey, Metroid Dread, Zelda BotW+TotK, and Xenoblade.....
Pokemon is the 4 foot chubby rich kid picking a fight with 7 foot basketball players and then gets surprised when he gets a super atomic wedgie. Pokemon has been dragged through the mud. It may make money but it gets no respect or love.
I Strongly Disagree & Here's Why:
1. As Someone who likes to make his characters look like himself for his NSO profile; I Love that ever since gen 6; Character Customization has become a Mainstay; since CHARACTER CUSTOMIZATION WASN'T POSSIBLE FOR THE PLAYERS PRIOR TO GEN VI in 2D; Aka the FIRST 3D Generation
2. Fairy-type Pokemon were Introduced in Same Generation where the games became 3D; Which Gave a MUCH NEEDED Nerf to the Overpowered Dragon-type
3. I Prefer 3d to 2d; 2D Games HAVE NO DEPTH; THAT'S WHY THEY'RE 2D; Because they only have TWO Dimensions; Length & Width but literally have ZERO Depth; they're flat!
I’m gonna be honest the “Pokémon Octopath Traveler” is the new Nintendo Hire this man where it’s just a 3D Mario in a hyper realistic field. It looks insanely unappealing and just feels so bland. I don’t get the Octopath style hype it just looks bad
Can we have two companies work on Pokémon? One for 3D, the other for 2D games?
I’d argue that the Gen 6 games, essentially 2.5D games, are also among the best there is. It’s no coincidence that they were the last games before the 2015 hiatus
I always find it funny when people talk about aesthetics and animations when I eventually turned animations off for regular gameplay to decrease grind time for battles, whether it be for EV training or BP grinding.
While I agree the actual pokemon have suffered from the transition to 3d, on undeniable improvement i feel was to the actual trainers themselves. Using sword and shield as examples theres hop and Leons cute little face pats to psych themselves up qnd show their connections, Bedes smug look as he checks his watch during the battle, the look of desperation on Chairman Rose before his fight as he looks at his pokeball, and the fire that lights up in Kubus eyes when he axtivates a Gigantamax. The transition to 3D made every trainer and gym leader into a much more e pressive character that before hand was locked to only a single image that youd see before and after a battle and thats it.
I dig the outro. JUST WHEN I COULDNT GET THE OLD VER OUTTA MY HEAD. Im pleasantly reminded of the jazz version of the Kamen Rider W-B-X Theme.
2.5D is what Pokemon should stick with and perfect
To be honest I feel like both 2D and 3D have their pros and cons. For 2D sprites for the Pokemon and trainers I absolutely love Gen 2 but for overworld Gen 5 is where it's at. Gen 9 is improving on the older models (finally) but as far as the overworld 3D aesthetic I love Gen 6, LGPE, and BDSP!
What I don't like so far about 3D Pokemon is just trying to make everything seem so close to the real world. Like I want the colorfulness of the Pokemon not boring ugly realism. Like where's the whimsy that was Ballonlea Town from Swsh?? 3D could work if there wasn't always this weird combination of rushing everything mixed with a bit of laziness and realism. Pokemon should be fantastical not boring.
People forget that fans have wanted 3D games for a long while, but now they're pushing against it and want to go back to 2D.
I love the twist on the end music! Hope we hear more going forward
Gen 6 definitely had my favourite art style, all the buildings and backgrounds were soo detailed and hold up amazing today, the customisation was great and pss is the best. And the 3d art style definitely was the best in gen 6.
To the best of my knowledge no one really cared that models were being until after GF said the sorry state of SWSH was because of effort put to models... Which was a lie.
I think with 3 things they could do to make it much better,
1.) Better Camera have the camera follow with skake and stuff.
2.) Better idle animations
3.) Fix the animation of some moves/ fix where particles come from
I think with these changes people would love how they look like how people like how stadium colosium and such look. Like imagine if as a fire punch comes you can see the wind up as the camera locks on the pokemon and seems to zoom in before snapping across to show a powerful punch effect with flames, shaking the screen. I am not the best when it comes to it but i fee like those changes would make a massive difference
I think the 2D vs. 3D debate is a moot point because there are no good outcomes. We have seen all the criticism GF gets by going 3D, yet, had they decided to keep the 2D art-style going, then they would have gotten criticized for stagnating and not taking the "obvious" next step by going 3D.
I think the problem is that the series is still stagnating. It has made the move to 3D in terms of world and visual medium, but the majority of the gameplay loop and art direction is still running off of the limitations of 2D. They only went half way, resulting in a state of things, where the series somehow feels more stagnant than if it had stuck to refining the 2D style to its absolute limit.
Unfortunately, taking that second step to complete the move to 3D and leave none of the actively detrimental 2D based design philosophies remaining would take way more time than the series' release cycle allows for.
@@remor698 *"but the majority of the gameplay loop..."*
Thing is that, thanks to the competitive scene, they cannot heavily change this aspect without losing years of progress and angering a lot of people.
*"...taking that second step to complete the move to 3D and leave none of the actively detrimental 2D based design philosophies remaining would take way more time than the series' release cycle allows for."*
Exactly, not helped by the fact that Pokemon is a multi-media franchise and its other branches require the Main Games to release on schedule.
It is clear the the pressures of developing a 3D game for a studio previously known for 2D spritework, coupled with the stresses of a yearly release schedule is having a detrimental effect on the quality of Pokemon games.
I personally would like it if they could have a spin-off series of 2D games. Have one team within the company make the main series 3D games every 2-3 years, and then have a smaller team work on the more traditional 2D games to fill the release schedule. Given that the development time and storage size of 2D assets would be reduced compared to the 3D ones, maybe we could have the full Pokedex in the 2D games. Though if every Pokemon has a compatible game to be transferred to then fewer people are going to pay the ransom to keep their Pokemon in Home.
Personally I don’t think 3D killed pokemon, the Pokémon company’s sweatshop level deadlines did, if the Pokémon team had the time the Zelda team does to make games they would definitely have been able to deliver an amazing 3D Pokémon game, I mean he’ll look at SV, buggy and unpolished as hell bug considering how crunched the time it was to make it turned out good, all it needed was a solid amount more time in the oven to polish the gameplay, graphics, and beta testing for glitches
I kinda feel that the developers weren't ready to switch to full 3D and instead it was something TPC insisted on.
It certainly seems that way, considering how much of the game design is still stuck running off of the limitations of the 2D games, when those are very much no longer a thing. The move to 3D is actually incomplete, only affecting visual medium and the world design so far, but nothing about the main battle system and actual art direction really does anything with the fact, that things are in 3D now.
I like the direction they were going with the 3D games, but if they’re going to put games out at the rate they are now, then it should probably stick to 2D.
I enjoyed Pokémon Violet, but the execution for the 3D environment wasn’t really up to the standard it needed. I just think that what needs to be done is put 3D to one side for now and just stick to the Standard Pokémon formula
Great vid as always man 👍
After i played violet, i went back to black, i was like "this is so much better"
I don't mind 2D or 3D pokemon I just wish the games were more polished because legends arceus and SV have shown us there is still creativity in these games but its execution is just bad considering we have such amazing games on switch but pokemon for some reason still struggles to get it down. I still love pokemon and I will still buy the games but I can't really blame people for liking 2D more since the games were more consistent compared to now where it feels like a gamble. Once again I love both styles but I'm starting to lean towards 2D more because gen 5 was just the best way to convey pokemon the animated sprites were top notch and still holds up today.
i think the pokemon stadium and XD: Gale of darkness games show that game freak is fully capable of making the pokemon much more expressive, even if back then 3D animation was much more limited- i really hope they can start implementing the kinda animations you described even if it takes awhile for a new game to come out- it honestly be a breath of fresh air if they took more time to develop games in general tbh,,
Those were not made by Game Freak. They don't handle spinoffs
@@UncannyEXP i mean, they were still made under their property's name so its not impossible to see what the other ppl did in that game and take inspiration, it also just shows doing such expressive animations in 3D back when they didnt have the advanced tools we have now is very possible and should be easier to do nowadays- game freak just doesnt do it out of laziness or time crunches- i think in general they need to stop pumping games every year and focus on making more high quality games that take longer to make since they arent like an indie studio and clearly have the money to do so :P
I will never know what song was used for that interrupt.
The graphics were never really an issue for me. The difficulty balance was why I had to sit out an entire generation.
In the days of 2D, the Pokemon anime was on afternoon cartoon network. That went a long way in stimulating the imagination when I was in the same place in game. It's fair to say I barely noticed the picture in front of me when the one in my head was at the wheel.
There are advantages to having grown up during a time when we were forced to go outside to play.
When it comes to 2D VS 3D, I don't have a super strong preference. I can see your point of view, though. Recently, I was looking up info on hidden abilities of different SV mons and noticed their artwork. Some of the 3D models didn't translate from the artwork as well as they should have(Something I first noticed with Pawmot).
Just to extend on one point but, the reason people got so up in arms about the model reuse for Sword and Shield was the dex cut remember? And cause of that and the creators comments, you can be sure people would scrutinize it far more. We didn't gain anything from the reuse, we lost instead and then had to pay for it.
My biggest problem is that pokemon games' storytelling has evolved. I mean, we are still confined to only giving yes-or-no questions and answers. The games are telling (with hit-or-miss results) these grander stories but all we can ever respond with is yes or no, with no often resulting in the question being repeated until we say yes. Give us actual dialog choices.
Another problem that I have with the change from 2d to 3d is that I think the overworld puzzles have been practically eliminated. I remember how child me felt so clever after figuring out some of the boulder puzzles, but the later games reduced Strength to pushing a Boulder in a hole right next to it.
*hasn't evolved
@@michaelzemancik9612come on the story telling has grown in leaps and bounds, the Hoenn remakes told a much better story for example, only gen 5 really matches the 3D entries storywise.
@@michaelzemancik9612what hasn't evolved is player agency, SV could've done that, but didn't bother with scaling.
Both 2D and 3D have their appeal , though I have to say I'm more a fan of _how_ each generation uses those styles. Case in point, the side games: for 2D the Pokemon Mystery Dungeons are just charming in the 2D with the mix of the animation work and character expressions, while for 3D Pokemon XD: GoD knew how to use it's 3D animations to give their Pokemon the right OMPH with their attacks, and the creativity of the use of 3D assets to make locations was great as ever despite the limitations of such at the time. Really, I'd say that 3D Pokemon probably would be a great improvement over 2D if Gamefreak and Nintendo gave their devs the time and resources needed to make that fully realized, fleshed out world and mechanics that 3D games need, but given how the company priorities momentum and sales....yeah, that is not going to happen until the IP starts flagging hard enough for a hail mary effort to be warrented.
tbh i honestly want to hear you talk about all the metroid games seems like a interesting rabbit hole to dive down. and yes i prefer the 2d games over 3d i didn't mind x & y but overtime the games have became rather stale or have loads of potential but lack development time.
you've probably forgotten my comment about xenoblade and botw but yea thats what development time can do
I kinda agree - 3D Pokémon games aren't inherently a bad idea, and looking at some of the 2.5D elements of generations 4 & 5, it was a direction they were always going to go into. That being said, Pokémon went 3D at the same time it started making a lot of decisions that were either objectively bad, or just decisions I didn't like. I miss the HM puzzles, it added more gameplay depth to the overworld, and helped Pokémon feel like more than just battle machines! I miss the unique sprites, it added so much more personality to each individual generation! I miss the branching pathways and sidequests, there was just more to do in the old games, and it made the towns feel more lived in and real!
There were also a lot of things in Pokémon that 2D games could get away with, that's harder to believe on HD 3D games (no dialogue, Pokémon's bleeping battle cries, the battle animations, as MangaKamen said). X & Y kind of got away with these, because they still had 2D Pokémon's design philosophy, but from Sun and Moon onwards, I can't help but notice how much Pokémon was falling behind its triple A peers.
What I'd like to see is pokemon going actually the full way to 3D, because what we have right now is functionally the 2D games with 3D visuals and open world. A lot of what the 2D games have introduced into the design philosophy of the mainline series is based in the limitations of 2D, which no longer apply, so there is now a lot to be overhauled in order for things to no longer feel outright lazy. I mean, the 3D medium has the potential to full on play like how the pokemon anime looks, the problem is just that getting to that point would take way more time than the devs have for each new generation's release, so that is highly unlikely to actually ever happen unless there is some massive shift in managment.
@@remor698 Yeah, same.
Never thought I'd hear a smooth jazz remix of Friday Night.
For me I like both personally I’m someone who’s very open to changes or different styles so I don’t mind if a pokemon game is 3D or 2D I’ll still play it and have fun.
3D is only the medium and has nothing to do with the quality of games.
You can ofc prefer 2D sprites over 3D models or a general art style over another, thats totally fine.
But lets be honest, Gamefreak got really lazy, pumping out games any other year right on point for the holiday sales. They see only the $$$ and dont give two shits about quality anymore because they know that people will buy and buy again no matter what state a game is in.
I would bet your left ball that they would even fuck up 2D titles by now because its all about getting the games out as fast as possible, no matter how glitchy it is
Pre-emptive comment: I bet it's more about the battle presentation. The stricter technical limits meant they could only ever *abstractly represent* how moves specifically worked, but with animated 3D models we expect them to *literally depict* how those moves work. It's a losing proposition to begin with.
Honestly, both styles are cool and unique in their own ways, 2D having a great nostalgic factor and a lot of feelings and character shown on the characters and Pokemon, and 3D having some pretty cool environments and scenery and some of the gameplay is also cool to, I honestly like how you can actually see the Pokemon in the tall grass in the modern games compared to the old games and how some of the area's seem more natural, overall I could care less about the looks, I just want good Pokemon, not any poorly made looking Pokemon and recolors, unless of course the recolors look cool
Pokémon legends arceus was actually good. Crazy how they threw all that potential away
I really like the 3D games, as I have been enjoying the titles on the Switch a lot despite what people say about them. Heck, even my favorite game in the series, Pokemon Moon, is a 3D game. Even then, when I refer to graphics in Pokemon, I have, and will always prefer how everything looks in Gen 5, those animated sprites add a lot of charm, and I would love to see how Pokemon that already have a lot of personality in 3D look in the style of Gen 5 sprites such as Incineroar, Cinderace, Hisuian Zoroark or Meowscarada.
I think they really missed a trick with the Gen 4 remakes. While we had the fancy 3d experimental Legends Arceus, BDSP could have been a jump back to 2D or to 2D-HD sprites. Gen 5 was just a glimpse of what we could have gotten in future instalments.
First...
Hold on guys. Let him cook.
I wish I could argue for the other side of this discussion when there's positives to it, but I suck at criticism and I'm not a very social person. Honestly, there are some things I like that 3D Pokémon can do. I love the grooming simulations of Gen 6 and 7, I can raise more than six Pokémon at a time, item farming is a lot better, and my favorite change so far is no more real time-based events. YES! I've been replaying Platinum trying to get that freaking Munchlax for the team!! Time-based events are garbage! Berry farming sucks! Day and night encounters suck!! Legends Arceus helped the series graduate into Zelda's day and night cycles and I'm happier for it!
It wasn't better because it was 2d so that's a moot point. The problem is that gamefreak sucks.
Everyone does wish Pokemon can get a break, even take bigger time to be made, alot of people point at gamefreak being lazy, but sadly it's the combination of Nintendo, gamefreak budget and the fans at the time want more pokemon.
Gamefreak yes does make alot of money, but most of the money goes to Nintendo, and Nintendo wants more money so have them make more pokemon because people at the time want more of that, everyone know it wasn't like this before.
All started around when the games move to switch which also when.. Nintendo become very greedy with their stuff but yet put lots of details to Mario and Zelda the two golden eggs which they don't want any backlashes to, I got more to say but this taken real long time
The one thing I like about the Scarlet and Violet is their 2D Portrait. They are simple, and clean.
There's always a thing that bugs me the most is about the world itself. Because why it looks so boring? It's a world with magical creatures with crazy abilities, but they live mostly in generic forests, plains and deserts. Of course, there's always exceptions, but most of the time, the world looks really boring.
And I don't like the direction that Game Freak takes toward realism, instead of stylization. Because Pokémon themselves are cartoony and with unrealistic proportions and biology, which is a opposite of realism. That especially noticeable in Sc/Vi.
Seriously, why Game Freak can't do a stylized, magical world with cool environments?
so I am gonna answer this in two different parts:
first, I am gonna point out a pokemon like Aggron. is Aggron's model bad? why does it look off? part of it is and maybe I am crazy that the head on the 3D model looks smaller, and the other is as you said dynamic posing. Aggron hunched a little in earlier games, making it look more imposing versus the "I'mma stand upright and swing my arms" idle we get. big difference. I feel like it isn't just a "3D" thing, I feel like there was some level of hand changing because the design for the badass metal Kaiju seems to have turned on it's head for me.
second, something that sours me about "future proofing" and overall 3D pokemon is how each generation cuts more and more corners without bringing much to the table. Dexit is gonna be a valid topic of discussion and the Mamoswine in the room until people see the problem. the issue, at least for some of us isn't even that they cut out the nat dex (which they said they wouldn't do) but that they continued to cut even beyond that. we never had a return of seasons, or pokemon following you for almost 3 years into 3D. graphics and optimization have honestly gotten worse over time. less and less post game content and goodies around the world to find as the gens went on. cutting of the movepool for "balance" when in fact it just made things feel worse. all of these have been in relation to what gamefreak and the defenders of the cut have stated for the cuts, and it has only gotten worse in some aspects. even being bold enough to talk about how much work it would be to implement every pokemon in each gen. TPCI has enough money to hire more employees for GF, or even make a whole ass separate team. they could eliminate crunch or even change some directive hands and hire a 3rd party to give them more time on a mainline game with a spinoff like colosseum again which could also be used to generate merch.
I can keep spinning on all the things they haven't and couldn't do but at the end of the day the improvements I wanted in exchange for the thing I was forced not only by the devs but the community as a whole to accept with grade A mental gymnastics have not been met, and in fact have gotten worse. so what does this have to do with 2D vs 3D you ask? simple: I don't think it is naturally a "oh its 3D so it just looks bad because of it's inherit design" like some would say. it was a rushed out and haphazard decision for 500+ pokemon, and how the models were designed with no updates that I feel killed it. crunch and corner cuts are the hallmark of this series and it will be their death if it continues and I feel it every time I see a model. they do nothing to improve older models aside from texture (which, to SV's credit was super cool.). but a lot of the models look devoid of some sort of soul, hell the clunky colosseum and stadium models rife with size inaccuracies and full of dated clunk just feel more alive in movement and color alone to make me look past it. I don't expect a course correction, and I am not here to argue with whoever decides to get butthurt and try to tell me I am wrong because I brought up the sinful topic of dexit. I am here to point out what I see is the problem which is greed, laziness and incompetence egged on by complacency either because y'all will get upset over criticisms like this and just buy 2 copies when someone says they aren't buying the games, or they don't have proper competition to make them slow the merch roll and actually try to refine their product.
Pokemon Legends Arceus is my favorite game, but Black and White (especially the sequels B2W2) was the peak of pokemon, the 2D sprites and everything looked amazing.
Its such a shame we didnt go the Pokemon Colosseum route, it had such a badass design and the world felt real. Meanwhile Scarlet struggles doing half of what it could do. And iv never seen baby cubchoo sprite and holy shit its adorable and i would bever be able to KO it.
Biggest issue with graphics, animations, etc. is the sheer number of necessary assets for it. There are soooo many assets for all these Pokémon. You’d need a soft reboot with way fewer of them to do it authentically, like how BotW only had eight or so enemy types that reused models and animations.
The national dex has been cut and it hasn't been met well. And Pokémon animations are also difficult because you can't really reuse animations between most models like you would on say monster hunter
@@bri1085 It’s really hard. You would need a solid, clear cut reboot. Something like the Zelda team did with a “Let’s reimagine the first games as an open world experience, with only the first 151 Pokémon redone from the ground up.” I think people would be understanding should they be clear about their intentions instead of trying to fudge it like they did with SwSh.
@@tardissins7512 Fair, it wouldn't need to be a hard reset per se, just a scaled-down experience then expanding on the small roster over the game's lifetime. I don't think they can afford to not release new Pokémon for too long, the problem is the games more or less drive a billion dollar franchise, being where they release new Pokémon, which then get pushed out on other media.
1:15 Julie is that you?! It’s been too long! 👋🏾🥹
You would probably *LOVE* Cassette Beasts! It has LOVELY music, including so many battle themes that have both an Instrumental and Vocal version, which changes depending on if you are fused with you partner character. You can *BECOME the Monsters you scan to fight more monsters!* And it's a 2D Open World Game! :D
It's clear that Gamefreak doesn't see Pokemon as their loving creation and more as a money making machine, caring more out money than quality.
Says 2D-Pokemon is the best and proceeds to fucking start up the Pokémon Colosseum soundtrack.
My biggest complaint about the New Pokemon games, Gen6 onwards, is precisely the fact that any non-gen1 Pokemon can and WILL be shoved into obscurity... or even be cut out from the game altogether.
Sometimes I make a New Team in Pokemon Showdown, but when I check if it fits the lastest generation, it always shatters my heart to read "(Pokemon) does not exist on Gen9"... thankfully I can still use them on National Dex, but it's honestly baffling because the Pokemon Games CAN afford bringing back EVERY missing Pokemon, and they choose not to because it's cheaper... and boy, cheaper it is... it's not like you're making new designs either, it's just a matter of translating some sprites into 3D, which shouldn't be an issue with the ludicrous budget TPC has (I wouldn't be surprised if they don't share it with GameFreak)...
Also most Pokemon don't really have the charm they used to in 2D, being less energetic and less vibrant... the downgrade is notorious.
The 3-D models is the main reason I stopped collecting the main Pokémon games.
It's not that 3D was a bad step for Pokemon, the execution was botched. I've seen what can be done stylistically in 3D,this ain't it chief.
6:53 Ah a fellow Monster Hunter of culture I see...
My main problem with the transition from 2D to 3D is they had, in terms of animation quality, they had to take several steps back.
If they had the same level of animation quality in gen 6 as they did in gen 5, I would be fine, cause those animations, while rough, were highly energetic and added to the atmosphere of the battles.
But they are only now starting to reach that level after 4 gens, and only with the new Pokemon, not bothering to touch up older ones, or even maintain ones post-transition.
I honestly belive story wise in the 3d games ultra sun and moon take the cake due to how the story was changed and expanded with new mechanics
2D is better.
I do agreed about Older Pokemon have their expressive personalities in the 3D mainline games pokemon games. They feel less expressive compare to side games like Stadium, Coliseum and XD darkness.
It could be there no need to to update expressiveness for older pokemon, cause there a lot of pokemon.
I would love to see another 2d pixel art pokemon game - there is a lot of good competition here, with games like Coromon, Monster Crown, Nexomon or Monster Sanctuary really scratching the itch but (though they're sometimes even better) its never the same as *real* pokemon games. It'd be a dream to see a fully open world like s/v translated into pixel art.
Also the heat for the reused models in Gen 8 was because Junichi said they were cutting the dex to and I quote, “completely redo the models and animations and make them higher quality.” Which immediately they were caught in their lie. People weren’t upset they were reusing models, they were pissed Gamefreak lied to them about why they cut the dex. It was later found out Gen 8 was originally intended for the 3DS not the switch because Gamefreak assumed the Switch would fail... so when it didn’t they had to port their work to the switch. I honestly feel bad for the people that work under these bafoons
Is it any wonder why pokemon fangames, one's that primarily use engines or softwares such as RPG maker, have such popularity and general enjoyment across its community, while the 3d stuff are, though still good, not as desirable by comparison. Call it simplicity, or preference towards the nostalgic, but why need to be fancy when you could be simple, but not uncomplicated.
Examples of some fangames would be ones like Insurgence or Reborn.
Honestly, I just like what the gameplay offers and what it leads to on 2D pokemon massively over the 3D games.
I can't really say because I like both 2D and 3D. Like you said there are strengths and weaknesses but those are outside of the topic for me.
I feel like the issue at moment with 3d Pokemon there isn't a definitive art style for each game at least in my opinion and at least in 2d Pokemon we had that kinda but I think the issue with the pokemon models became a massive problem in sword and shield where Gamefreak realize that they can release something half made and still make profit which don't get me wrong other companies are guilty of it too but I see it a lot with Gamefreak because let's not forget the release that was scarlet and violet but that's my two cents
Sword and Shield wasn't really half made. Nor would GF do that. Was it rough? Yes, I won't deny that. But that's just them needing more time than anything else.
@@TheMalikp1 ok fair point but I feel like it started a trend with their 3d pokemon games
@Jean Gomez 3D monster catcher/tamer games was thing before Gen 6. Pokémon probably influence it because of how popular it is but that's it. Even then that didn't stop other devs from mixing it up, or keep 2D.
@@TheMalikp1 fair what I meant was that sword and shield started a trend where Gamefreak could just released a product broken
@@neon13602 Oh that? That's been a thing before Sword and Shield as well. Not just from them, but Nintendo, SEGA, etc. A lot of companies are guilty of that. Thankfully patches exist, but I don't think it looks good relying on them most of time, especially if Scarlet and Violet is a result.