This album B-side "A Treatise On Cosmic Fire" is a conceptual piece about Kundalini Yoga, and the experience of ascending through the seven chakras (the seven rays) reaching the Sahasrara, the Thousand Petaled Lotus. I had many kundalina experiences after receiving shaktipat from a yogi in 1976. These experiences were magnified greatly by using psychedelics. I'd seen Todd Rundgren's Utopia live and listened to "A Treatise On Cosmic Fire" tripping balls on several occasions... I worked at a bar in San Francisco in the mid eighties where Todd appeared one night with Bebe Buell and her tall ebony goddess girlfriend. Todd hung out at the bar while the ladies danced, where I seized the opportunity to ask him about "A Treatise On Cosmic Fire", and whether it his interest in kundalini was from a yogic influence or from psydhedelics. He looked at me and smiled while moving his eyes rapidly back and forth, then winked! Interpret it however you wish... He was very nice, funny and not the least bit arrogant...a real gem of a man. Oh, and A Wizard and a True Star!
The title also came from a book by Alice A. Bailey. When I first got into spirituality I tried to read that stuff because of Todd's music, but it was incomprehensible, a complete labyrinth of mythology. Then I stumbled upon Gopi Krishna's What is and What is Not Higher Consciousness: The Evolutionary Thrust of Kundanlini and that was much more helpful.
joel lee yeah, kinda blows up his story overall, since a person would know when they went through their kundalini phase... and Buell had not been in the picture since what, 1980?
Bebe Buell split was 1978 I believe. Plus, why does everyone on RUclips have to be ''tripping balls'' and ''using psychedelics'' to appreciate good music, and then write a treatise on their own life with irrelevant and often incorrect facts to bolster their narcissism ? It really is a recurring and very tiresome trait.@@stevegirardmedia2255
Light years ahead. Seriously. At numerous points in the future when we and ours and theirs are six feet under astute disciples of music will hear this and their jaws will drop. Rundgren will realize perhaps his greatest accolades and recognition centuries down the road.......................................
Ah, Treatise...the long, pretentious love letter to itself that begs to be dismissed as too long, too scattershot, too indulgent to be taken seriously, but, like baseball, paying attention to the minutae SO rewards your lingering. Every listen leaves a fresh chunk of earworm from an unexpected section. It is truly art, as it is always evocative, even on those days it invokes impatience.
it’s amazing to me how often themes from this piece get lodged in my brain on loop, even when it’s been months or even years since I last listened to it! It’s so self-indulgent, could have used some more editing…but honestly I feel that way about a lot of Todd’s work from this period. And I love it anyway! It’s such a pure artistic expression, so much heart and soul!
A psychedelic jaunt through hippie happenings and esoteric philosophy. The sort of inspirational sounds and innovative instrumentation you just don't get these days. Phenomenal
Todd was a pne man artist he could do it all I loved his floating through yhe galaxy creativity He had an R and B side to his works as well There was mo one out yhere like him Wizard True Star Utopia Faithful n Healing I recomend Highly🎉❤
When I would go into town at night,(about a 10 mile drive) I was amazed at how I could completly wrap/warp my head around this album. It's been years since I've heard it again and I still find that I still can, while other friends can't (drugs or no drugs). This continues to be one of my all time favorites.
+mojorisen74 Sorry if you lived in Barberton Ohio many of US Turned it up.. and Listened ALL THE WAY THROUGH.. CONTINUALLY.. and still do today. this is my third listening today....
Excellent job, Mojo Risen. Your version (EQ to flat, 0.5% speed down) is the cleanest I've heard on RUclips. I can hear the separation of instruments better, particularly in the higher frequencies. And my ears aren't fatigued in the crazy dense textural passages in the middle. So prescient, and TR maybe getting the recognition he deserves finally. Thanks.
It was made at the slower pitch, it had to be sped up to fit on one side of a vinyl record. People are just used to hearing it incorrectly. @MorbidManMusic
If I've said this one time I've said it one hundred times...this is the greatest composition in the history of music. Nothing else like it has ever been written or performed.
I kinda suspected it when I heard the 45 RPM mix of Prana, then I heard the isolated rhythm tracks from "The internal fire- or fire by friction" as well as backing tapes that were played live and they were all a half step down. My final confirmation was an interview with Bob Ludwig where he mentioned it because there was so much music crammed onto one LP. It was THE longest vinyl LP he ever mastered at the time.
This piece always makes me want to turn to the Todd Rundgren's Utopia album for a loud playing The Ikon. This is a great treat on RUclips. Thank you for posting.
If you listened to the other videos of the selections from Treatise I have up that may be why you hear no difference. If you listen straight from the CD you'll hear the difference. Treatise was raised because Bob Ludwig had already stretched the music to it's limits by compressing and rolling off bass frequencies so the groove would cut as small as possible so the only option left was raising the pitch. Had there not been a plastic shortage at that time Initiation would have been a double album
1975, the first time I was to take that journey of the mind, my experienced co-travelers decided this album (with this track to start) would be the beginning of our experience together. I had heard the piece a few times prior to this event, and was a little concerned about the intense middle section! Laying on the floor of my friend's well -healed vacationing parent's home, through a killer system at ample volume the roller-coaster ride of the psyche began to leave the loading platform. And so we sailed through time and space, calling out to each other in amazement as a form of "anchoring" to reality. That long journey took many wonderful paths that night, and the intensity I was fearing from this track turned out to be a fully embraced and realized exploration of inner space. Thanks Todd and Co.!
...thnx for the link; the double-tracked leads in Intro Prana one of TR's finest imo. Kudos on your remaster, hearing all the little parts & stereo dimension missing from the squeezed together orig. album, great job!
chord changes were a large part of Utopia as well as being Todd's signature for guitar playing and song writing, if you can't keep up learn to play and join along in the fun, it's just a friendly game, everyone can play, minor / major / enjoy Listen to "Don't you ever learn" and enjoy the dissonce.
I have my original copy from when it was first released. It is pretty much worn out. It still brings back those memories. I was poor, but those were some very rich times if you know what I mean. So incredibly vivid. So glad you read all your experiences!
forget everything, but how good this sounds, you and me didn't create this, not even sure it was done for us, Not heard this for nearly 40 years, and I can hum every note. A word I use too much according to my critics, but never the less splendid
THANK YOU SO MUCH for this amazing version of "Treatise"! It is BY FAR the clearest, cleanest version I've ever heard--and I used to play this song to death in the 70s and even when I got it on CD in the 90s. Your version has made it rise even further in my esteem. Thank you!
I did a tribute to this particular record - huge influence. It's at my youtube page if you want to hear it. I met Todd around the time of No World Order and it was funny because I was there with my other friend name Todd (that's my name too) and Todd grabbed our hands and melded them together and said "It's the terrible Todd Truine!" and made a ray gun sound. Funny guy!
The Todd consortium! lol! My name is Matt and it is amazing how often that kind of thing happens to me. I met six Matts last month, all good musicians!
I hear what you did here. I just started this and I already know everything else is about to sound so different compared to what I'm used to. Good stuff.
At that same time Radio Shack had an Arthur Feidler album out called, "90 Minutes Of Arthur Feidler" (Actual title may vary.) and it had 45 minutes of music on each side. A few years later, Robert Fripp released the longest 7" single side, "Marriagemuzick" which was 11:45 long, although it WAS at 33 instead of 45. The longest single at 45 that I know of was nearly a decade eariler. "The Motorcycle Song" (7:50) b/w "The Pause Of Mr. Claus" (7:55), by Arlo Guthrie. A total of 15:45 long!
This is just fantastic and so far ahead of it's time. The first Todd album I bought in 1975. Many times I listened to this in bed for a very pleasant come down. Never had a problem with the sound quality either. TIG. Oh and remember, There's always more.
Reading comments about the bad audio quality of the original vinyl release, I have to say I never had a problem with the sound. I had a good, if moderately priced stereo system at the time, with an early 70's Garard turntable with a tone arm made of wood. I could adjust the stylus weight to less than a gram and it tracked perfectly. A simple Kenwood receiver with loudness boost, and floor model two way speakers took care of the rest. I never noticed a sound issue listening through the speakers or headphones.
There wasn't enough bass because the length of the album wouldn't allow it. The only way you could hear the full fidelity of the album was if you had the cassette of 8 track at the time. Then in 1987 Rhino issued the first CD release and the sound was phenomenal!
Yeah, I was in high school and had never been exposed to great sound systems (meaning mine was pretty crappy by today's standards) but it was the content of the LP that I loved. It IS great to hear this in modern audio no matter the format. Thanks.
Yeah, I have to agree ,After reading about 50 pages of it, and really trying to wrap my brain around it I was at a total loss, I didn't know if I would have understood it better had I read the previous volumes?....Or perhaps understood it better if I would have been in an altered state of mind but yeah, Cosmic Bollox is the best way to describe it, I wonder if Todd actually was able to get through the whole book himself!
Does it occur to anyone that 'Initiation' was a musical interpretation of Alice A. Bailey's 'Treatise On Initiation' series, and also 'Treatise On Cosmic Fire', which can still be found on Lucis Foundation publishing.
It would be so very nice if someone released a torrent of this particular version!!! 45 mixes and all! It is so very unlikely that the inept record companies will ever release it. Hypothetically, if someone did, maybe they might post a link as well? I can dream.....
Sounds excellent. It's a crying shame they cannot locate the masters to the majority of his Bearsville stuff, as it sounds so harsh and compressed - even on the very first untouched 80's CD issues
I must apologize for not being as well-off as most of TR's Fans were. I did always manage to make TODD's concerts when he came to the "MOTOR-CITY"!!! Back in the day! AM going to now make a strong attempt to purchase A TREATISE ON COSMIC FIRE!!!!
Talking of Yes references, I've just come to the somewhat belated realisation that The Ikon plunders Heart of the Sunrise to noble effect. Then again, Todd did once tell me he was a big fan of Jon Anderson and Co.
A TR album that seems to be recorded a half-step higher than I would imagine it was composed is Hermit of Mink Hollow. I've seen Todd's hands play "Can We Still Be Friends" starting with Dmaj over C, but when I play along it is Ebmaj over C# - and so that's the key I play it in today.
Okay, you young Turks! Listened to this elpee the night it was released...in my '65 Dodge Dart (metal dash, bitchin' sound system...) in the parking lot of a dive beer bar across the street from my college. Just wanted to hear them PLAY "Cosmic Fire" on the air. Went to work for them some 3 short years later, and played the damn thing again! And was lucky enough to be singled out of an audience of a two-night, four-show engagement at a club in Gretna, LA ( the four-piece UTOPIA) to meet him. Now THERE'S blast! Whaaaa-hoo!
If TR wasn't happy with the tempo of a song he would speed the tape up or down half a step. Time heals, Hideaway and CWSBF are good examples. Other artists have done that as well. With digital recording you now longer have to change the pitch, you can simply have the audio editor set the tempo of the music.
Unlike the music, which is awesome as you'll know. The book of which I have a very old edition, is a massive tome full of impenetrable cosmic bollox, which is what some people think of ATOCF as a piece of music.
Mojo, I'm curious how do you know that the pitch of Treatise was raised? Intro Prana is my favorite piece of TR music except for the "City In My Head" middle section of "Utopia".
it was the seventies.,,.a bootleg i think .....but it could've been in the nineties , i don't recall / i was usually too high to think straight//... / which is how i prefer to listen to Initiation, ...and {the death of fire rock n' roll, etc.}, todd's sound, you know ,..
Sharon Berry, if you're out there, I apologize for asking you to find something other than this to play that day at your apartment. I guess the drum synth part was just too much for my mind at the time.
I so love me some Treatise on Cosmic Fire. I wish Todd would do another epic synth prog piece. You say you changed the pitch, but is still seems to start off in Cmin, which is the way I played it in my videos. Am I missing something?
I hadn't noticed those sequences were slower than the album. Good call. I think I'll re-rip my Rhino CD and try matching the speed. The vinyl version was terrible. Todd didn't just master it at a lower level, (He put "Play it Loud" notes on several records) he severely EQed and compressed almost all of it. The Intro starts out fine but at 4:21 (4:39 on this video) the EQ cuts in and the highs and lows all but disappear. I applaud Todd's skill at mastering, but I'd rather have 25 minutes of excellent music than an extra 10 minutes EQ'ed and compressed into submission.
mojorisen74 I thought Todd mastered all his own records. I bet it's even on the sleeve and I missed it. Mind if ask what software you used? I think I can at least match the pitch and add the missing parts (were they from Somewhere/Anywhere?) and save it lossless. Any tips on what else I could do would be appreciated.
Todd sometimes gave credit for mastering, sometimes not. Bob Ludwig Mastered all the albums up until I think 1980, After that Greg Calbi did the mastering . I used Adobe Audition 3.0 Basically all I did was EQ the whole thing back to flat and slowed down Treatise 0.5%( if that's whetn the settings say on yours. It could be half a step also) The extras are from Somewhere Anywhere.
mojorisen74 Unlike in the US, Asian singles often have a karaoke or instrumental version included. I've used Audition to get the difference of the two to get only the vocal. Sometimes I have to speed up or slow down the track. It's usually a tiny amount, a few 10's or 100's of samples to get cancellation. I'll try the same technique to sync a part of Treatise and one of the sequences. It won't be perfect because of tape stretch, but I should help me to get the pitch right within a cent or two. Thanks for the help.
I remember the vinyl album sounded like shit, probably because there was so little space for the groove - Todd had put as many minutes on one album side as could possibly fit in. Even this RUclips version sounds much better than the original album. I have no idea whether this has any bearing to the equalizing / compressing / producing of the original sound...
Actually, this is a remix, not just a remaster. Listen to the original vinyl version of "Real Man", and listen to this remastered version. The original was crisper. The vocal was more "wet", and the edit points were smoother. This may be the out-takes, because the mixes are certainly different.
Warner music group took it down. I tried to post it again, it's on my RUclips. I can see it, but it's unsearchable and the link doesn't work for other people. I'm going to see if things change once my 90 day suspension is up (September 15th I believe). I'll find a way to post it lol. It's odd Warner's care about Todd's music now considering they didn't give a damn about it back in the day. Plus by taking the music down they're killing any momentum Todd may have going for him for new fans or old fans rediscovering his music.
the song is 36:40, the bonus cuts are after that. I'm actually thinking about putting up another post because 1. I can post videos over 2 hours now and 2. I found an interview from a magazine in 1975 where Todd says not only did he speed up the whole of Treatise, but he also sped up the first 3 tunes on side one as well.
Muchos sonidos ..(atonalismo) si no hay tono...nota central es obvio q no hay música...y la realidad es q en este disco no hay mucho de música sino muchos sonidos con algo de musica
So we are going some where but where?Feels like im stuck in a never ending walk up then down round and round trying to fill up space not knowing where its going /but then new direction comes,to the sum of all miss direction/whaaaaa the frick was he doing??I could do better/or he could have if he tryed,going somewhere with this other than alarmbells then wizard and runt/.frog la bat/ t rex/ sid ross/lost vib,and last but not least trend set er.//
![Pink Floyd - The Dark Side Of The Moon (50th Anniversary) [2023 Remaster] {Full Album}](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/k9ynZnEBtvw/mqdefault.jpg)
"Prana" is the greatest piece of music ever written.
Yes!!
36 years since I first heard this piece and every note still astonishes me.
This album B-side "A Treatise On Cosmic Fire" is a conceptual piece about Kundalini Yoga, and the experience of ascending through the seven chakras (the seven rays) reaching the Sahasrara, the Thousand Petaled Lotus. I had many kundalina experiences after receiving shaktipat from a yogi in 1976. These experiences were magnified greatly by using psychedelics. I'd seen Todd Rundgren's Utopia live and listened to "A Treatise On Cosmic Fire" tripping balls on several occasions...
I worked at a bar in San Francisco in the mid eighties where Todd appeared one night with Bebe Buell and her tall ebony goddess girlfriend. Todd hung out at the bar while the ladies danced, where I seized the opportunity to ask him about "A Treatise On Cosmic Fire", and whether it his interest in kundalini was from a yogic influence or from psydhedelics. He looked at me and smiled while moving his eyes rapidly back and forth, then winked! Interpret it however you wish...
He was very nice, funny and not the least bit arrogant...a real gem of a man. Oh, and A Wizard and a True Star!
The title also came from a book by Alice A. Bailey. When I first got into spirituality I tried to read that stuff because of Todd's music, but it was incomprehensible, a complete labyrinth of mythology. Then I stumbled upon Gopi Krishna's What is and What is Not Higher Consciousness: The Evolutionary Thrust of Kundanlini and that was much more helpful.
That u mean mid 70s todd wasnt with beull in mid 80s
joel lee yeah, kinda blows up his story overall, since a person would know when they went through their kundalini phase... and Buell had not been in the picture since what, 1980?
Bebe Buell split was 1978 I believe.
Plus, why does everyone on RUclips have to be ''tripping balls'' and ''using psychedelics'' to appreciate good music, and then write a treatise on their own life with irrelevant and often incorrect facts to bolster their narcissism ?
It really is a recurring and very tiresome trait.@@stevegirardmedia2255
@@joellee7645Raised the useless Steven's child
I love his song called REAL MAN very much too! 💕💕💕💕💕💕💕💕💕💕💕💕💕
Light years ahead. Seriously. At numerous points in the future when we and ours and theirs are six feet under astute disciples of music will hear this and their jaws will drop. Rundgren will realize perhaps his greatest accolades and recognition centuries down the road.......................................
Ah, Treatise...the long, pretentious love letter to itself that begs to be dismissed as too long, too scattershot, too indulgent to be taken seriously, but, like baseball, paying attention to the minutae SO rewards your lingering. Every listen leaves a fresh chunk of earworm from an unexpected section. It is truly art, as it is always evocative, even on those days it invokes impatience.
yep
I've always loved this track from the first time that I heard it in 1976.
it’s amazing to me how often themes from this piece get lodged in my brain on loop, even when it’s been months or even years since I last listened to it! It’s so self-indulgent, could have used some more editing…but honestly I feel that way about a lot of Todd’s work from this period. And I love it anyway! It’s such a pure artistic expression, so much heart and soul!
Back in the 80's , this was our 'go to' stoner album.
A psychedelic jaunt through hippie happenings and esoteric philosophy. The sort of inspirational sounds and innovative instrumentation you just don't get these days. Phenomenal
Todd's shoebox full of peyote era is easily my favorite.
Todd was a pne man artist he could do it all I loved his floating through yhe galaxy creativity He had an R and B side to his works as well There was mo one out yhere like him Wizard True Star Utopia Faithful n Healing I recomend Highly🎉❤
When I would go into town at night,(about a 10 mile drive) I was amazed at how I could completly wrap/warp my head around this album. It's been years since I've heard it again and I still find that I still can, while other friends can't (drugs or no drugs). This continues to be one of my all time favorites.
I think I'm one of the few that can actually sit through "Treatise" from beginning to end in one sitting lol. It's a great album from start to finish
mojorisen74 I love this "track" and listen to it regularly since I bought it on vinyl when it was first released in 1975, 39 years ago.
+mojorisen74 Sorry if you lived in Barberton Ohio many of US Turned it up.. and Listened ALL THE WAY THROUGH.. CONTINUALLY.. and still do today. this is my third listening today....
Such a joyous happy tune ! Just boppin along into a major time in life
Excellent job, Mojo Risen. Your version (EQ to flat, 0.5% speed down) is the cleanest I've heard on RUclips. I can hear the separation of instruments better, particularly in the higher frequencies. And my ears aren't fatigued in the crazy dense textural passages in the middle. So prescient, and TR maybe getting the recognition he deserves finally. Thanks.
It was made at the slower pitch, it had to be sped up to fit on one side of a vinyl record. People are just used to hearing it incorrectly. @MorbidManMusic
If I've said this one time I've said it one hundred times...this is the greatest composition in the history of music. Nothing else like it has ever been written or performed.
Jajajajajajaja q me has hecho reir
I kinda suspected it when I heard the 45 RPM mix of Prana, then I heard the isolated rhythm tracks from "The internal fire- or fire by friction" as well as backing tapes that were played live and they were all a half step down. My final confirmation was an interview with Bob Ludwig where he mentioned it because there was so much music crammed onto one LP. It was THE longest vinyl LP he ever mastered at the time.
I thought there was a limit to his epicness... but disc2 intro took it that 15lightyears further!
Some of his best guitar work right here
This piece always makes me want to turn to the Todd Rundgren's Utopia album for a loud playing The Ikon. This is a great treat on RUclips. Thank you for posting.
If you listened to the other videos of the selections from Treatise I have up that may be why you hear no difference. If you listen straight from the CD you'll hear the difference. Treatise was raised because Bob Ludwig had already stretched the music to it's limits by compressing and rolling off bass frequencies so the groove would cut as small as possible so the only option left was raising the pitch. Had there not been a plastic shortage at that time Initiation would have been a double album
"Rod, Tod. THis is God!" - Bart
Oh Dear , i forgot how sublime this was.
1975, the first time I was to take that journey of the mind, my experienced co-travelers decided this album (with this track to start) would be the beginning of our experience together. I had heard the piece a few times prior to this event, and was a little concerned about the intense middle section! Laying on the floor of my friend's well -healed vacationing parent's home, through a killer system at ample volume the roller-coaster ride of the psyche began to leave the loading platform. And so we sailed through time and space, calling out to each other in amazement as a form of "anchoring" to reality. That long journey took many wonderful paths that night, and the intensity I was fearing from this track turned out to be a fully embraced and realized exploration of inner space. Thanks Todd and Co.!
...thnx for the link; the double-tracked leads in Intro Prana one of TR's finest imo. Kudos on your remaster, hearing all the little parts & stereo dimension missing from the squeezed together orig. album, great job!
PRAYING TO"GOD"!! that Todd's health is holding on!! AMEN!!!
What’s going on? Hey?whats happenin with Todd?
here's the latest whats happening with Todd ruclips.net/video/-e3Wrps2zr0/видео.html
chord changes were a large part of Utopia as well as being Todd's signature for guitar playing and song writing, if you can't keep up learn to play and join along in the fun, it's just a friendly game, everyone can play, minor / major / enjoy
Listen to "Don't you ever learn" and enjoy the dissonce.
This is a masterpiece of an album even on vinyl
I have my original copy from when it was first released. It is pretty much worn out. It still brings back those memories. I was poor, but those were some very rich times if you know what I mean. So incredibly vivid. So glad you read all your experiences!
forget everything, but how good this sounds, you and me didn't create this, not even sure it was done for us, Not heard this for nearly 40 years, and I can hum every note. A word I use too much according to my critics, but never the less splendid
spudcustardx1 Hey spudcustard×1 ,you can still hum every note cuz TODD GROWS ON YOU MAN !
THANK YOU SO MUCH for this amazing version of "Treatise"! It is BY FAR the clearest, cleanest version I've ever heard--and I used to play this song to death in the 70s and even when I got it on CD in the 90s. Your version has made it rise even further in my esteem. Thank you!
I did a tribute to this particular record - huge influence. It's at my youtube page if you want to hear it. I met Todd around the time of No World Order and it was funny because I was there with my other friend name Todd (that's my name too) and Todd grabbed our hands and melded them together and said "It's the terrible Todd Truine!" and made a ray gun sound. Funny guy!
The Todd consortium! lol! My name is Matt and it is amazing how often that kind of thing happens to me. I met six Matts last month, all good musicians!
Love Todd. But, I can only imagine how much greater if the synthesizer had never been invented. A full orchestra with strings, brass, etc.
I hear what you did here. I just started this and I already know everything else is about to sound so different compared to what I'm used to. Good stuff.
At that same time Radio Shack had an Arthur Feidler album out called, "90 Minutes Of Arthur Feidler" (Actual title may vary.) and it had 45 minutes of music on each side. A few years later, Robert Fripp released the longest 7" single side, "Marriagemuzick" which was 11:45 long, although it WAS at 33 instead of 45. The longest single at 45 that I know of was nearly a decade eariler. "The Motorcycle Song" (7:50) b/w "The Pause Of Mr. Claus" (7:55), by Arlo Guthrie. A total of 15:45 long!
This is just fantastic and so far ahead of it's time. The first Todd album I bought in 1975. Many times I listened to this in bed for a very pleasant come down. Never had a problem with the sound quality either. TIG. Oh and remember, There's always more.
Reading comments about the bad audio quality of the original vinyl release, I have to say I never had a problem with the sound. I had a good, if moderately priced stereo system at the time, with an early 70's Garard turntable with a tone arm made of wood. I could adjust the stylus weight to less than a gram and it tracked perfectly. A simple Kenwood receiver with loudness boost, and floor model two way speakers took care of the rest. I never noticed a sound issue listening through the speakers or headphones.
There wasn't enough bass because the length of the album wouldn't allow it. The only way you could hear the full fidelity of the album was if you had the cassette of 8 track at the time. Then in 1987 Rhino issued the first CD release and the sound was phenomenal!
mojorisen74 It looks as though this has been here for a while, but was this ever pressed and released? Any possible sources to purchase?
Yeah, I was in high school and had never been exposed to great sound systems (meaning mine was pretty crappy by today's standards) but it was the content of the LP that I loved. It IS great to hear this in modern audio no matter the format. Thanks.
Yeah, I have to agree ,After reading about 50 pages of it, and really trying to wrap my brain around it I was at a total loss, I didn't know if I would have understood it better had I read the previous volumes?....Or perhaps understood it better if I would have been in an altered state of mind but yeah, Cosmic Bollox is the best way to describe it, I wonder if Todd actually was able to get through the whole book himself!
Does it occur to anyone that 'Initiation' was a musical interpretation of Alice A. Bailey's 'Treatise On Initiation' series, and also 'Treatise On Cosmic Fire', which can still be found on Lucis Foundation publishing.
I had a shirt with that pic, Leonardo devinci's human body design on it too. It's very cooooool
It would be so very nice if someone released a torrent of this particular version!!! 45 mixes and all! It is so very unlikely that the inept record companies will ever release it. Hypothetically, if someone did, maybe they might post a link as well? I can dream.....
Daniele Williams just download this version from YT, and put it in your collection! EZ!
Quintisential Classic Astro-Planetary Tripping Supreme
Indeed.
Sounds excellent. It's a crying shame they cannot locate the masters to the majority of his Bearsville stuff, as it sounds so harsh and compressed - even on the very first untouched 80's CD issues
I must apologize for not being as well-off as most of TR's Fans were. I did always manage to make TODD's concerts when he came to the "MOTOR-CITY"!!! Back in the day! AM going to now make a strong attempt to purchase A TREATISE ON COSMIC FIRE!!!!
Thanks for the hard-work, mojo.
You Rock!
Entire album is beautiful; side 2 is off the charts (a few Yes references=all good)-The Internal Fire rules.
Talking of Yes references, I've just come to the somewhat belated realisation that The Ikon plunders Heart of the Sunrise to noble effect. Then again, Todd did once tell me he was a big fan of Jon Anderson and Co.
A TR album that seems to be recorded a half-step higher than I would imagine it was composed is Hermit of Mink Hollow. I've seen Todd's hands play "Can We Still Be Friends" starting with Dmaj over C, but when I play along it is Ebmaj over C# - and so that's the key I play it in today.
Todd = God :)
Okay, you young Turks! Listened to this elpee the night it was released...in my '65 Dodge Dart (metal dash, bitchin' sound system...) in the parking lot of a dive beer bar across the street from my college. Just wanted to hear them PLAY "Cosmic Fire" on the air. Went to work for them some 3 short years later, and played the damn thing again! And was lucky enough to be singled out of an audience of a two-night, four-show engagement at a club in Gretna, LA ( the four-piece UTOPIA) to meet him. Now THERE'S blast! Whaaaa-hoo!
nice work. agreed with what you did
8:45 I thought the Carousel Burnt down
Gotta love Ohio.
Thos album was once the guiness record holder for most minutes on vinyl at 66. Not sure if it held up.
Musical psychedelics are the best way to fly.
HI MUSIQUE !
If TR wasn't happy with the tempo of a song he would speed the tape up or down half a step. Time heals, Hideaway and CWSBF are good examples. Other artists have done that as well. With digital recording you now longer have to change the pitch, you can simply have the audio editor set the tempo of the music.
Unlike the music, which is awesome as you'll know. The book of which I have a very old edition, is a massive tome full of impenetrable cosmic bollox, which is what some people think of ATOCF as a piece of music.
Mojo, I'm curious how do you know that the pitch of Treatise was raised? Intro Prana is my favorite piece of TR music except for the "City In My Head" middle section of "Utopia".
it was the seventies.,,.a bootleg i think .....but it could've been in the nineties , i don't recall / i was usually too high to think straight//... / which is how i prefer to listen to Initiation, ...and {the death of fire rock n' roll, etc.}, todd's sound, you know ,..
+Roberts Bud it might've been in the nineties too. TR's Fairlight cranks don't you think straight
Sharon Berry, if you're out there, I apologize for asking you to find something other than this to play that day at your apartment. I guess the drum synth part was just too much for my mind at the time.
mine too,Lindy,mine too.have my vinyl.kat
God fucking speed you man
35:56 now this was worth the wait !! Heheheh
I so love me some Treatise on Cosmic Fire. I wish Todd would do another epic synth prog piece. You say you changed the pitch, but is still seems to start off in Cmin, which is the way I played it in my videos. Am I missing something?
Todd must have been on some heavy drugs when he made this album.
IS TODD still the HERMIT of MINK HOLLOW?!???
Still.
I hadn't noticed those sequences were slower than the album. Good call. I think I'll re-rip my Rhino CD and try matching the speed. The vinyl version was terrible. Todd didn't just master it at a lower level, (He put "Play it Loud" notes on several records)
he severely EQed and compressed almost all of it. The Intro starts out fine but at 4:21 (4:39 on this video) the EQ cuts in and the highs and lows all but disappear. I applaud Todd's skill at mastering, but I'd rather have 25 minutes of excellent music than an extra 10 minutes EQ'ed and compressed into submission.
Todd didn't master the album. Bob Ludwig did, He's a great mastering engineer but this album definitely pushed the limits!
mojorisen74
I thought Todd mastered all his own records. I bet it's even on the sleeve and I missed it. Mind if ask what software you used? I think I can at least match the pitch and add the missing parts (were they from Somewhere/Anywhere?) and save it lossless. Any tips on what else I could do would be appreciated.
Todd sometimes gave credit for mastering, sometimes not. Bob Ludwig Mastered all the albums up until I think 1980, After that Greg Calbi did the mastering
. I used Adobe Audition 3.0 Basically all I did was EQ the whole thing back to flat and slowed down Treatise 0.5%( if that's whetn the settings say on yours. It could be half a step also) The extras are from Somewhere Anywhere.
mojorisen74 Unlike in the US, Asian singles often have a karaoke or instrumental version included. I've used Audition to get the difference of the two to get only the vocal. Sometimes I have to speed up or slow down the track. It's usually a tiny amount, a few 10's or 100's of samples to get cancellation. I'll try the same technique to sync a part of Treatise and one of the sequences. It won't be perfect because of tape stretch, but I should help me to get the pitch right within a cent or two. Thanks for the help.
I remember the vinyl album sounded like shit, probably because there was so little space for the groove - Todd had put as many minutes on one album side as could possibly fit in. Even this RUclips version sounds much better than the original album. I have no idea whether this has any bearing to the equalizing / compressing / producing of the original sound...
Actually, this is a remix, not just a remaster. Listen to the original vinyl version of "Real Man", and listen to this remastered version. The original was crisper. The vocal was more "wet", and the edit points were smoother. This may be the out-takes, because the mixes are certainly different.
Yes. Its not the same. I don't know about the vocals being "wet". It's just not as "special" as the original master. Ya know what I mean...
Vidio game prog rock in 1975.
I have no way to log the hours spent drawing to this album
Mojorisen - Did you voluntarily take down disc one, or were you "asked" to take it down? FYI - your work holds up as well!
Warner music group took it down. I tried to post it again, it's on my RUclips. I can see it, but it's unsearchable and the link doesn't work for other people. I'm going to see if things change once my 90 day suspension is up (September 15th I believe). I'll find a way to post it lol. It's odd Warner's care about Todd's music now considering they didn't give a damn about it back in the day. Plus by taking the music down they're killing any momentum Todd may have going for him for new fans or old fans rediscovering his music.
I agree. Where was the label support back in the day?
I came across this 38 years ago, and I've heard nothing remotely as adventurous or as innovative since.
Todd was stoner acid head whod get behind a sunthesizer or pick up a huitar n travel Oops wrong planet😅
Did you slow this down a lot? 44 minutes for a 36 minute song?
the song is 36:40, the bonus cuts are after that. I'm actually thinking about putting up another post because 1. I can post videos over 2 hours now and 2. I found an interview from a magazine in 1975 where Todd says not only did he speed up the whole of Treatise, but he also sped up the first 3 tunes on side one as well.
I'd still leave it the way it was on the record.
nah,just put on album.this is Great and All but......
Muchos sonidos ..(atonalismo) si no hay tono...nota central es obvio q no hay música...y la realidad es q en este disco no hay mucho de música sino muchos sonidos con algo de musica
So we are going some where but where?Feels like im stuck in a never ending walk up then down round and round trying to fill up space not knowing where its going /but then new direction comes,to the sum of all miss direction/whaaaaa the frick was he doing??I could do better/or he could have if he tryed,going somewhere with this other than alarmbells then wizard and runt/.frog la bat/ t rex/ sid ross/lost vib,and last but not least trend set er.//
And he's NOT in the HOF ???
He is. 2021 but he did not show up for it but they did make a video of his induction. It's on RUclips
In his liner notes, Todd recommended recording Initiation onto tape. Not really sure why, though.
Because there was so much music pressed onto the vinyl that the grooves were unusually small and could be easily damaged