Engie is NOT Best in 100 player Class Wars??
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- Опубликовано: 14 мар 2024
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Игры
FYI - map choice: koth because of the symmetrical modes, it's pretty simple and fair
symmetrical map so our required games played doesn't go into infinity. if you do best of 3 + attack + defend, that's a LOT of hours
koth_king was picked by viewers as pretty neutral map for every class. i didn't really care that much, could've also gone for viaduct/lakeside/cascade
also btw the experiment discord is in the video description now, if you are interested in the next time we do dumb shit like this :>
also also the outcome of every matchup linked in a paste in the description for any nerds who care
fefeé
I thought you picked koth_king because it takes place in hong kong which is the place you're from (that's what it says on your about section anyways)
This is a real piss of piss!
I think cascade is a bit more of a balanced map, definitely would have different results
@@finmin2k Yeah, I've always felt like Kong King is iffy on class balance because the central area is so flat with such long sightlines. It makes Pyro and Heavy weaker than they should be, not that it apparently mattered for this video lol. Makes me wonder if those two classes would've dominated even harder on another map.
"The killfeed is empty until BLU Meds get bored and start killing"
Has such a threatening aura.
Another proof that Medic is God
“That was not medicine” 😂
Same energy as ‘So anyway, I started blasting’
Technically, Scout got first blood. A small win, but a win nonetheless
"Ze healing is not as revarding as ze hurting!"
Engineers were like a virus slowly spreading before becoming unstoppable
and Heavies are the antibodies
@@Spyridon1337 And soldiers are like poison
It's like a bacterial growth in a petri dish
I think Pyros are the White Cells because how agressively it swarms around his target and plus causes a fever in response when it's acting.
more like HIV@@jking4854 more like HIV
This is a sad day for Texas, for once, more gun didn’t work
i'd say that these depends much on the maps being played
Sometimes you need a little less gun 😢
Engi may be smart but you can't outsmart bullet.
But more gun did work
For the enemy team
id argue 100 heavies is the definition of "more gun"
"A pyro can beat a soldier, but 16 pyros can't beat 16 soldiers." - Great Blue.
"HOW ABOUT 50 PYROS!" - Shounic, probably.
no 50 pyros can't beat 50 soldiers
no 100 pyros can't beat 100 soldiers either
7:05 New rock paper scissors dropped
New Pokemon starter types dropped
We got a Rock Paper Scissors 2 before a major tf2 update
Holy hell
@@JohnFortniteKennedy_ Lets goooooo
@@thewolfofthestars1847 Gotcha Catch Them All
10:00 also remember that Engy buildings receive damage with no damage falloff. This means Heavy is extremely efficient at poking from range
good point
Even the lvl 3's 20% damage resistance vs all miniguns and the wrangler shield's 66% resistance aren't enough to stop the pootis.
really good point, i didn't consider that
Yeah, and sentry's damage falloff is really large when firing at long distances under wrangler.
WTF? Shooting at Sentires you don't get falloff but wrangled Snetires do damage that does suffer falloff? That is s stupid. And before you say "if the wrangler suffered no falloff, the Engineer would be better than Sniper" I'd argue that thanks to Spy, he would almost certainly be a lot more vulnerable setting up to take advantage of a sightline.
I love how the Enginner strategy is to just become the Zerg Creep from Starcraft
Well, he was designed as a class for RTS players...
So for soldier and pyro, who’s would be Protoss and who would be Terrans?
@@sailorshark3334 Heavies.
@@sailorshark3334Heavies as Terrans obv. Literal Marine spam.
Exactly
Being spawncamped by 50 people with no chance of escape is insane
Dustbowl last
tf2 hell torture
average dustbowl match
@@mmmmmmmmmmmmmMicrowav Dustbowl stage 2 blue spawn used to not have the drop down on the left side making it so easy for demos to sticky spam the trench and eventually spawn camp.
7:30 this pyro got a 1000 yard stare right there
If you make comments like this instead of "BRO BRO IS NOT FUNNY DIDNT LAUGH" you would get less hate
Great blue crying and shaking rn
Well given many class wars use dustbowl as a default map and only use that map. Engineer in general is Op in dustbowl, so class war just amplified it.
To be fair, attack/defend plays a lot different than koth, and 100 players are almost 3 times of the 32-player mode GB focused on.
Weapon reskins
@@starmaker75 just an absolute dogshit map lol
@@Nikkibuh nope.
10:37 this is just terrifying. imagine being the engineer sitting in the back and seeing the heavies slowly encroaching and consuming everything before deleting you
Now I'm wondering about the theoretical "perfect team" of all 9 classes VS a team of all one class, to see if overwhelming them with just one class is actually better in some cases...
Amputator spam + Heavies might be better than Heavies alone
It probably is. And I'd certainly say that an even mix of [ideal combat class] + Medic = winner winner chicken dinner compared to perfect even 9-class balance.
@@lpsp442 that's the opposite scenario to what he just asked.
One of each + 42 heavies
@@TheDoc_K There is no "opposite scenario" to a perfect balance of 9 classes.
The farthest removed state would be "any mono-class team", while a two-class-only team would also be removed but less extremely so.
This is also why having a team with mostly Heavies is an unstoppable team
One good sniper on the enemy team:
Especially if your play play load offensive. Seriously the only way of dealing with 2-5 heavies on the cart is hoping the kritkerg demo can cheese it or/and have a mini team of engineers.
This is actually kinda true even in the 100 player server, sometimes when attacking team roll out a bunch of heavies on a payload map, the chance of them winning does feel higher or at least they will push further until a impenetrable choke point . Basically quite map dependent since maps like pl_dustbowl is still the same where the two explosive mercs dominated.
especially with a sprincle of medics (2-3 heavies per Medic)
A StickMaster comment without a stupid "wHy ArE yOu EvErYwHeRe" comment? Impossible.
10:03 The Russian picnic behind the bus made my day
buffet
-Irina Ivanovna, what's for lunch?
Rice and shine, doctor Freeman
Rice and shine
The teleporting engie jumpscare as well
9:17 Holy shit all those Heavies getting completely destroyed is the funniest shit I've seen in a while.
Love the rocket spam at 9:19 tbh, it's even complete with a few crit rockets
Disappeared like bubbles
The heavy is dead
Reminds me of when disney pushed a ton of lemmings off of cliffs
@@aaronrachiele5521Gone. Reduced to atoms.
The funny thing the sentry has minigun resistance and even with wrangler cant handle the army of big russian potato
The reason it has minigun resistance in the first place is because damage against it has no falloff, which is why miniguns are so good at taking down sentries from range.
Well heavy has dps equal to 360 if every pellet will hit. Level 3 sentry with addition of 20% of its resistance have effective hp of 270 and since it is stationary wide target, heavy can deal with it under second. Wrangler increase the effective health of sentry gun lvl 3 up to 648 hp, I don't know if the heavy resistance also apply, but if yes then it is further increased up to 810 effective hp. In basic scenario, heavy need less than 2s to deal with wrangled sentry and 2,25s to deal with wrangled sentry and heavy resistance. Sentry guns lvl 3 dps is equal to 118, which mean that it will take around 2,5s to deal with heavy. If we add rockets that deal on average 100hp, then kill time can be reduced to around 1,7s which isn't enough to deal with one heavy. In wrangler situation Sentry gun dps is equal to 178, which is almost equal to result with rockets cause it takes 1,7s to kill heavy. While technically in that scenario lvl3 should have advantage over heavy by just 0,1s since heavy need 1,8s to deal 648hp, it is down to Engis reaction time and if he is fighting 1v1 and not 1v2 or even 1v50 Also from game perspective the problem starts with sentry reaction time, target priority and how fast Engis can build lvl3 and maintain them (they don't) so heavy has clearly advantage by huge margin.
TL;DR - Heavies don't have problems that engineers face which is building, upgrading and maintaining their stuff. They are ready to go and can easily overwhelm engies, cause they ain't fast enough to build themselves up
@@cinex20 important note is that the engineers didn’t have time to set up because it’s king of the hill, and there is no set up. They’ll get there quicker but can’t build their stuff in time for the massive heavy horde.
seeing engineer lose in these scenarios makes me feel validated for losing my sentry nest after trying to defend the intel alone
cat's foot iron claw
If someone is coming towards the intel, why not just ask your teammates on voice comms to help? Most of the respawning teammates will be glad to hit them from behind while they approach your nest. the only times I've had issues with this are when a Spy does a sap and stab so the gun is down before I can let them know. Why try to solo it? Now sometimes the respawn teammates are just killed, but at least they usually try. To keep the round going longer if nothing else.
@@asies_lavida NEURO-SURGEONS SCREAM FOR MORE
@@CRTMonitor77 AT PARANOIA'S POISON DOOR
Well, the engineers here were in king of the hill and didn’t have time to set up.
4:35 this feels like a nature documentary and it makes it very cute
They cannot outsmart boolet.
Except The soldier
@@marquespereiraalves2926he out stupid the bullet so hard he outsmart it 10/10 interaction
Broke: Rock, paper, scissors
Woke: Soldier, Engineer, Pyro
The reason Great Blue said engie was best in class wars because its usually on atk/Def maps
Good point, Engineer on KotH is much different, as shown.
On Defense, absolutely unstoppable. Engineers never have to push, and on something like Dustbowl, there are covers for the nests.
On Attack, Engi does lose some matchups, Great Blue did point that out, I think.
Ye he only rly put defense engi on dominant
Shounic gave Engy a head start though. At that point they’re on defense and still lost. It’s mostly due to the fact that defense maps favor defenders in fights instead of it being an equal and symmetrical playing field.
@@SyRose901 In his video Engineer won on offence too, they were just slowly creeping their way forward and eventually spawncamped their enemies
Also I’d like to point out that Ammo boxes respawn at the same rates regardless of player count and all of Engineer’s buildings take up space too. This means that having too many Engineers can be a bad thing.
watching the medics fight remind me of insects
completely unbothered by weaker prey species in large groups but scrabble and scatter when faced with a stronger predator.
9:23 it’s like d-day Jesus
Ah yes, m’y favourite part of the Bible
gaben 20:07 (or something idfk)
"thy ass shall walk up these Stairs and capture the Sacred Point for Victory over the game"
Need someone to edit the footage and put in the audio from Saving Private Ryan's opening scene
Thanks for the free name for a metal band
Yesterday I was playing normal Dustbowl class wars and when it got to Medic vs Medic all I could think of was "go go gadget blutsauger spam"
Never use that in a x10 (or more) server (YOU WILL REGRET IT)
Imagine if it was pyro vs medic(Third degree gets practical use)
This is unwinable for the heavies as long as a few meeics know how to Uber chain
@@kR-qj7rwit doesn't work. You get knocked back.
@@kR-qj7rw Holiday punch.
"It is genuinely very challenging to stay alive for more than a second"
It makes sense.
With this amount of people its much harder for individual skill to make a difference. So raw stats become an important factor.
And heavy has the best relevant stats here
That and the nature of the class, heavy is first and foremost a space provider and providing more wiggle room for squishier classes being other heavies that aren't as squishier and also distract fire themselves quickly compounds on itself so in short *it is good day to be giant man*
Also makes sense that the single target classes are much worse.
If it were 6v6 classwars, Scout would probably 2nd or 3rd best.
@@CommanderLex idk what tf2 you're playing but as a heavy main I think I can say heavy focuses on one target at a time just very quickly so that falls apart a bit this really is a much more team oriented format instead
@@ChumpstickCharlie Heavy may focus on one person at a time, but he's definitely not a pick class.
@@ChumpstickCharlie heavies are power mumtiplier classes
While say 25-25 heavy soldier would probably be the stronger combo all heavies just make the entire team able to occupy space and each heavy can survive all but the mapr burst damage of the demo and soldier
But even the demos top damage doesn't pass the critical mass health like soldier so he dies
Class wars tekes a team role and turns it into the only thing the team can do, strong combat classes and filthy engineer creeping into a position all work , all specialists but heavy get folded because heavy speciality of take and hold space gets better with more heavies unlike pick classes and flankers
Nowadays the most interesting tf2 videos are from Shounic
Ye
Kinda been that way for like 3 years since Dane slowed their uploads
"Against engineer, they can't play the videogame."
"Stand on roof to spam bus. Stand on roof to spam other side of bus. Push this flank to spam bus."
Absolute poetry. 10/10
I think Sniper and Spy being the worst picks probably demonstrate the best examples for their roles and what they are meant to be suited for. They are pick classes. Their job is to pick off one at a time, not overwhelm like Heavy and Pyro
only aimbots snipers can overwhelm
it would be interesting to see how different 100 aimbot class war turns out from this study.
One good sniper is overpowered but the class scales TERRIBLY. Having more than one sniper is less effective in most cases. Two at the absolute max. It’s like medic. Medic is the uncontested best class but having more than two medics is terrible.
@@Skullhawk13 Assuming that you have 9 other players on your team that does their job well and half of them are not spy or snipers, you can definitely go 3 medics IF things get hairy. Though that's putting a lot of assumption in casual mode because you'll find more matches where half of a team is made out of snipers and spy from new players
@@HungNguyen-vg1zq ok maybe I was being hyperbolic at saying TERRIBLE but my core concept was that even the most broken classes don’t scale with higher numbers. Two medics is ideal to cover Herr Doktor, But at 3 you’re stealing fast uber and at 4 you’ve entered what the cool kids call “throwing”
5:20 LMAO THEY'RE JUST STANDING THERE, WHEEZE
You sound fun at parties
Holy sh*t those soldier barrages at the start of the round are truly something to behold
9:22 bless that one soldier out of the 50 who learned his koth king rollouts, he was just in time to meet 50 heavies head on.
I think he lived as well.
3:52 dustbowl matches be like
This seems very map dependant. Harvest would be an example of Sniper doing better.
Fatmagic reference
They chose kong king because that map is balanced for all classes, because they wanted accurate results. meanwhile harvest is tailored in favor of sniper above all other classes. Why do you think bots are most common in harvest casual? Cuz they are most powerful there.
@@jakestaheli8532 that map is definitly not balanced for every classes...
Still didn't save sniper, because heavies always go to the house and never go on the roof. Once heavies cap the point, snipers get pushed back and flanked by going into the enemy house. I play Class wars alot with rotational maps, and harvest does benefit scouts alot, heavies do get pushed back by scouts and demos, as demos can just jump into the point and spam stickies to get rid of heavies before they get caught and scout has alot of space to jump around in, but it still is a stomp on heavy's part.
Also mode dependent. KOTH seems like the absolute worst mode for an all-Spy team, because it involves standing exposed on a giant bullseye.
2:00 this is literally why the yer exsist
Spy players discovering that Sentry Guns don't attack you if you backstab with the YER:
Right, but the Dead Ringer was a near must to survive 100 players watching each other’s backs, and the spies couldn’t recloak without losing the feign
Yeah the spy failure is because of the higher skill floor requirement of spy to be effective, not because of any Inherent superiority of these other classes, I always run YER but idiots are brain busted about muh speed boost or kunai health and listen to people like great blue to inform their builds
@@Nikotheleepic said no one ever
.... "The" YER?
Engineer and Heavy are the only classes on the game which make a team weaker when spammed, but eventually reach a breaking point and become crazy strong when the entire team commits to the bit
As someone else said, they are team based classes
And if the entire team is of that same class, coordination and support become much easier
The iron curtain descends upon the badlands
The wave of soldiers bombing at 5:55 must've been terrifying to play against
4:36 the demos blew up the danm capture points roof!
Spy: isn't allowed to play
Sniper: loses as soon as the enemy finds an approach that isn't a 10 km long sightline
Scout: deals no damage and dies immediately
Medic: wins by peaceful protest, killing is an optional recreational activity
Demo: replaces the ground with stickies
Pyro: replaces the air with fire
Soldier: replaces the sky with rockets
Engi: a slowly advancing tide of metal and death
Heavy: replaces the universe with bullets
Watching this from a 3rd person perspective makes it look like a tf2 rts game
Commander class when?
@@TheTdw2000 I believe that’s called the Administrator
8:51 gentrification
HEAVY MAINS STAY WINNING
well that's an empty pedestal if I've ever seen one
heavy main is a dodo in TF2's ecosystem
got hunted to extinction by the other classes
10:32 the 1943, battle of Stalingrad, colorized, AI upscaled
"Heavy is a bad class" mf sure have been quiet since this video dropped.
Based
Still lost to soldier and no where near problematic as the sniper.
Heavy needs a buff to his kit badly.
@@HellecticMojolost ONCE and NEVER LOST even with ENGIE start up
@@naenae2350 he lost in a setting where things were so stacked in his favor. He's placed in a scenario where opponent can't run, can't flank, can't heal.
These are not normal TF2 situations.
@@HellecticMojo Heavy needs a buff how?
He's already a master at war of attrition.
Seriously if you can't play well with heavy you just suck.
Heavy looks so funny stacked up with a hundred of them because instead of some kind of video game character with a helmet or mask they're just a bunch of identical men
"And my least favorite class is the Spy"
- Evil Gaben
The Demo vs Engineer analysis was legendary
I believe why pyro didn’t win the heavy long range chip matchup is simply because you cant stack afterburn ticks inbetween pyros while multiple heavies can chip one pyro.
If afterburn stacked from multiple sources it’d be busted of course, but heavy wins the crowd control with multiplying chip dmg
Imagine receiving stacking afterburn from 50 scorch shots and dying in a single tick
@@blargghkiphorrifying
They should have gone for the flare, not noobtube
@@ChiefWombatCuddlernah, AOE is king in this format.
should've gone flare+dragons fury
0:32 damn spy didnt even win the spy v spy
Heavies winning even after letting the Engies build in the point is impressive
Heavy's weakness isn't his slowness or his big hitbox... It's being by himself, as soon as he has a team around him he is a death machine. Especially if it's a horde of heavy's.
It is his weakness tho. In normal game he can just be picked off by any decent Sniper as soon as he get into sightline.
@@januszpolak254 That's true, since snipers counter heavy in the normal game. But unlike most classes, heavy gets an absurd boost in effectiveness when surrounded by even just one teammate. Like a scout doesn't need a team to work, but a heavy? He can't get to places fast, he is a big target and he can only kill so much so fast. But when a heavy is with a team he doesn't have to worry about that, because he will just be shooting and clearing hallways, objectives and so on. Heavy excels in a team but crumbles without one.
His slowness and big hitbox are weaknesses, but they aren't his MAIN weakness is my point. A lone heavy can handle some situations by himself, but in most encounters he will just kinda lose. Meanwhile a scout, soldier, demoman, engineer, sniper or spy can go around by themselves more or less. A heavy with a team even a small team is a force to be reckoned with.
@@januszpolak254decent? Nothing is easier than headshotting a revved up heavy lmao. That s why sniper is called his hard counter. You just pick Australian and you can bully a Russian with ease
The he counters his own counter with either two of his five miniguns or the fist of steel.
@@bossbrozork3022 I'd rather say he's making pathetic attempts. Miniguns can't even make a sniper flinch if a heavy shoots at him from a distance of more than 750 hu
11:04 Gaben glitched out because he can’t say spy
That's why he's the face of the game fellas.
Stacking heavy is always the strat in pubs. If something goes wrong, 3 ppl pick heavy and u basically just win since pubbers are not organized enough to deal with that. So it does kind of make sense for heavy to win this one
Not enough people play stock demoman. It's very easy to counter heavy by spamming him and abusing corners.
@@TheTdw2000nah
@@TheTdw2000 the average puber rans out of pipes a s have no meat shields to counter heavies
You aren't wrong technically but I. Casual people either run away giving you mad space or fight you one at the time as heavy which is exactly what they should never do
I have fight 6 guys and win one at the time and they think oh the heavy is so strong this is bs, meanwhile I'm fighting for my fucking life at like 10-30 hp after every fight but I just heal back before the next genius tries it.
If st any point a f2p scout shot me like twice with anythig. Across the map I would have lost heavy stomps casual not because it's good but because people play to his strengths
9:18 did anybody else absolutely die when they saw the heavies just get demolished by hundreds of rockets, yet they still continue to push up the stairs
I love that despite there being 100 players in the server, this just looks like the average match of TF2 in a map like Dustbowl.
‘When four to five Pyros run at you, you just die.’ Was strangely humorous to me
0:55 as pyro main I have to say this is definitely sight to behold
Yea.:(
ngl got me to half-mast
Weirdo
@@MaskedMazter
huh???
5:20 One of the times that the Amputator Taunt healing is actually better than healing with any of the Medi Guns
The only reason Engineer lost at all is because the server wasn't running cp_dustbowl
They grow stronger in the homeland of their saint.
Fucking knew Heavy was gonna be the highest ranking. Though, the Medic Peaceful Protest Tactics™ did get a laugh out of me.
8:36 opps took the cap roof
7:10 this some roshampyro
heavy is also just a compact medic so that helps, there were many that was just tossing bananas into the frontline non-stop, it was unironically almost as strong as the medic nona-chain of medigun nightmares
7:05 new rock, paper, scissors just dropped
Immense swarms of players and projectiles is just the funniest thing
"When you have 4-5 run at you, you just die."
Excellent quote there sir, it is so true.
10:10 dude that Engineer got executed
The amount of rockets and grenades at the round start is out of og gmod
the original ambassador would have held up against sniper, but now the damage drop off is just too much
2:40 “with at least a minute left to go”
Shows 54 seconds left to go
After rewatching old videos again and again I was itching for a new video. Hallelujah, we got a new one! The quality of your videos are something else man, I keep coming back to old ones I am well acquainted with just to enjoy your style of video
Ah yes, my favorite tie-breaker game, Pyro Soldier Engineer.
Your creativity with the Gaben sentence mixing at the end of these is so underrated. Excellent video as always
good to be here
another great video shounic
Absolutely love these experiment videos, some of the most consistently fun and fascinating content I watch.
I like how your videos are data driven. You run experiment, collect data, and show it to use in nice and entertaining way.
7:05 Fire Emblem weapon triangle
Rocket, Pyro, Sentry, SHOOT!
Heavy is finally getting the recognition he rightfully deserves...
Class wars engineer is a menace on payload if he is pushing the cart.
If you are unfortunate enough to get projectile based classes, well... Prepare to get short circuited at the payload.
I would love to see similar experiments for different gamemodes on different maps, just to see who comes out on top in those scenarios
Love the pacifist medic strat, especially when they get bored and decide to kill the enemy team.
forgot the most important factor in class wars, fast respawns, never seen a class wars server without it
*YOU* forgot rtd
@@endarkenedgdHonestly rtd is the only reason why I don't give up on poor match ups as spy or scout.
*"Who sent all these babies to fight me?"*
"And if that don't work, use more gun"
"Da, this will work"
i like how this shows the effectiveness of the classes in the game
Spy as single stealth support guy is very effective and can break enemy team one by one but as DPS front line class is less effective and with more than 2 teammates spies his stealth power can be gone
Heavy as single is the easiest class to kill in game but when he work with his team or be with more Heavy teammates he start to be real effective tank
It's really interesting that Heavy is so good, despite not theoretically being good at group DPS (no splash damage or Pyro flame particles that can hit multiple people).
@@btf_flotsam478 Who needs group DPS when you can just target a bunch of people one after another with high single target DPS?
100 player wars would be perfect fit for TF2C, 50 players for each team
This is like a really freaky nature documentary :D
"no way to handle both at once" eternal reward lol
its honestly crazy and hilarious the strategies that form in 100 players
its not simply existing ones but 'more', you have shit like Medics basically becoming a multi-person organism by having Amputators slowly inching forward as they heal while other medics shield them from damage, or demos' being able to entirely shut down a point with pipe spam, or heavies moving in a giant snake-like line
100 player servers is one of the best things added to the game in a while.
6:34 E thang
I love these silly little videos shounic makes
This looks like so much fun it's like a full of battlefield like war with all kinds of strategies
footage of the last 100 tf2 players running out of things to do with a 17 year old game
why is there just a noclipped soldier flying through the air at 6:43
Invisible roof.
I think this shows exactly why Spy is Gabe's favorite class. He's so difficult to play and very situational.
Medic's win vs Scout: "Do no harm"