@@haoye2413 You say that, but it isn't true. Look up what happened with a voice actor named Vic Mignogna. He was accused of sexual misconduct and his PR people let him apologize on Twitter when he claims he didn't do it.
Thorin was the one that showed the video of Reginald and the only reason he did it was because Reginald and Leena were attacking his journalistic integrity calling him fake news. He took MASSIVE offense to them lying and belittling his 20 years of esports journalism.
If I'm not mistaken the 8 year old Regi video was pulled into conversation because TSM also was "calling out" Thorin for using the word "cunt" and taking somewhat of a moral highground while that video was still up on TSM's youtube channel. I agree with you that bringing stuff up from the past is not the best but when people do the same that's expected.
The reasoning for digging into Reginalds past was because Leena was attacking Thorins journalistic integrity on her Twitter and the TSM goon squad were digging into his past so it was to show hypocrisy. I am not defending the 'past-digging' but there was a reasoning to it.
Attacking 'journalistic integrity' - or anything really - starts to turn into accusations, insults and general shitposting real quick unfortunately. People see something they don't like and immediately throw punches instead of actually discussing things relevant to the situation.
@@ZupaTr00pa It is opposite of that. If you have watched Thorin's video, you would find out that the points he made are valid for the most part, with good logic and evidence.
Even if this wasn't caught on stream, can she talk about that kind of stuff around Doublelift thus giving him information about Dardochs trade value? Should that information be kept between the player and the Org only? What else has she told Doublelift that she shoudn't?
With leena and peter, its more of a trust thing. They trust each other not to use the information they overhear from each other. Leena has info on tsm Peter has info on tl They overhear each other. They keep quiet.
Devin why do you ignore her Reddit comments? Reflexively turning to reddit to respond to youre inability to properly function as a vice president at one of the largest esports teams in the world is mindblowing... but then she actually threw a corporate sponsor under the bus and edited their name out of it. she also admitted to conducting these "meetings" around DL before seemingly while he was on TL??????? i mean come on dude man
It's worth noting that the Leena apology you read was edited, the original had a few different lines, one saying roughly "at the end of the day, nobody feels worse than I do", which is a huge part as to why the community was very upset at the Leena twitlonger's. Edit: Okay, looking at the video again I now noticed that the apology isn't corrected and is still in the video (and on the twitlonger at the moment of this edit). That makes my original statement false since it wasn't edited. However, it's still worth noting that that part of her apology did upset a number of people as you can see in my first reply.
@@Manublablabla This thread was created right as the apology was posted and the top comments are all about the quote. You can check it out here: www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/ghzts7/leena_xu_apology_to_our_community_and_josh_dardoch/ Edit: You are correct on the fact that the sentence has not been edited out, I corrected my original comment.
What I find absolutely insane is so many people clearly think a conflict of interest is once something has happened, a conflict of interest is merely the possibility it can happen.
@@platinumorange1034 con·flict of in·ter·est a situation in which the concerns or aims of two different parties are incompatible. a situation in which a person is in a position to derive personal benefit from actions or decisions made in their official capacity. The definition of conflict of interest describes it as being a situation, not an action, so you are wrong. Leena being a president of an organization while dating a player of that organization or another organization is a "situation" that is a conflict of interest regardless of whether any actions of negligence or malpractice actually occur. Search it up.
You missed the mark about the old video with regi, the reason thooorin linked that video was because regi used to go after thooorin for comparing him to cesar from planet of the spes and regi was saying thooorin was racist and disrespectful, and got thooorin fired from ongamers, so he linked it because of TSM continues to try and slander him for talking about it.
i love the talk about player unions, it always reminds me of the COD boycot, where it was the most played game by far instantly after the entire community said they were gonna not play it.
>"We don't want a world where Riot is judge, jury, and executioner." >Brings up the Echo Fox scandal, confirming that we do, in fact, already live in a world where Riot is judge, jury, and executioner. If what happened at Echo Fox happened at TSM, Riot would have told TSM to publicly apologize and nothing more. Then Riot would have patted Regi on the head, powdered his ass, and sent him on his way.
Do you even remember the Echo Fox situation? Comparing it to the TSM situation is so insanely dumb I'm going to convince myself you don't even remember what happened.
I do remember the Echo Fox scandal. Shareholder allegedly aimed raical slurs at Rick. I'm not saying he didn't, but there's no evidence aside from hearsay saying he did. Rick never disclosed any evidence of said slurs, and Riot never published the findings of their "investigation" into the matter. All Riot did was release a statement saying they'd looked into it, and that Echo Fox had to remove said shareholder or sell their franchise slot. Shareholder didn't budge, and Echo Fox couldn't sell their slot, so Riot kicked them out and sold it for them. Unlike the Echo Fox situation, we actually have more than one piece of actionable evidence that there very much is, and has been for some time, a conflict of interest (which can only lead to corruption) over at TSM.
@@FourEyedFrenchman difference is it states in the LCS franchise rules/guidelines that a behaviour like racism, bigotry etc. and one of echo fox execs broke those rules and therefore a punishment was handed out. What TSM did is not in violation with any of the guidelines the LCS set out so therefore they can't punish TSM for this. Even Dardoch can't sue them since they didn't break any laws. It's ethically wrong what happened but that doesn't make it illegal or punishable.
Yea that situation was vastly different than this situation. That was a racial issue where someone who is incredibly popular not just in the Esports scene but just the public sector in general made claims about an executive in his company being incredibly racist. Sure, you could say "these claims can't be proven" and whatever other bullshit you want to try and justify not taking it seriously. But, Rick Fox would have no reasonable reason to want to oust himself from his own company and have that spot potentially lost. Fox was incredibly passionate about Esports and started Echo Fox as a passion project. Riot obviously investigated the claims and discovered that there was enough merit to them to warrant kicking out the organization if the executive didn't leave the company. No company wants to be associated with racists, nor should they. Your comments just show extreme stupidity and a lack of understanding to how things do operate and how they should operate. I would highly suggest you just refrain from putting your opinions out on the internet in the future because they just make you look braindead to anyone who actually has any sense of logic.
At around 36:00, while I agree that people can change, I think that statements such as those made by Reginald can be indicative of people's viewpoints and opinions at that point in time and potentially of their opinions in the future too. I think a lot of people say things when you're young that you may regret - that's fair. If in 5 years something else happens and Reginald responds in a similar way, then it's clear that they A - haven't learnt from their mistakes and B - have the same opinions. For example, UK Prime minister Boris Johnson has over the past 20-30 years (documented from around 30 years of age up to this day) made various racist, misogynistic, antisemitic, Islamophobic, classist and homophobic statements. Boris argues that “If you go through all my articles with a fine-tooth comb and pick out individual phrases, there’s no doubt that you can take out things that can be made to seem offensive." and has recently said that he meant "absolutely no disrespect to you or anybody" in response to comments he made in 1995 stating that the children of single mothers were "a generation of ill-raised, ignorant, aggressive and illegitimate children". While the validity of Boris' riposte is up for weak debate, Johnson still makes comments like these to this day and his words of 'I'm not the bad guy' are hollow and embarrassing. One or two comments are not enough evidence to back up a claim but consistent themes over a good chunk of time can be very indicative of a person's opinion and continued viewpoints. I think if Reginald - and anybody in the world really - wants to make these apologies, then they can only make them once or twice otherwise they mean nothing and it's clear you have not changed. Reginald was 18; mistakes were made. But he's had a strike and is under scrutiny now.
Can Dardoch sue for damages? What are TSM actually going to do about besides the PR statements that every company makes and never does anything to back it up after.
the point some people can miss is that even if dardoch CAN sue, its also up to him whether he wants to sue or not. this could possibly be something that he doesnt really care about even though he should be but yea its his choice and his preference. thats where tsm fans get upset is when people are kinda SPEAKING FOR dardoch and claiming riot needs to punish tsm and all that. Andy even said he reached out to dardoch and they probably did sort something out together so i think thats fine, as long as dardoch is satisfied with the compensation he got then this shouldnt even be talked about anymore.
@@StarMagnet1 In terms of this case, maybe. But this case reflects the broken system LCS has had. It is a young industry, inflated with VC money after all.
@@Homanetic if you want to get an abortion, is not of my damn business, if you want to smoke weed is not of my damn business, if you want to have same sex marriage, is not of my damn business, if you are openly gay, is not of my damn business. See im being ethical, Even if you wanted to commit suicide it would be unethical from me to just try to stop you without knowing if you are in such a insufferable amount of pain where it would bring both of us more peace of mind if you do. morality in the other hand is what you need, in order to adress those issues which affect you.
@@irrelevant12 Correct me if I'm wrong but once a set of ethics are in place, then ethics are objective. You have to stick to the rules otherwise there may be consequences. Ethics are created by people though so inherently they are based on subjective opinions. If the CEOs think that abortion is wrong (their subjective moral opinion) then anybody in that company must communicate that abortion is wrong, if speaking from a company perspective (objective ethics). The employees may think that abortion is right but they can't spread that view while representing the company otherwise they breach their contract. I think that's how it works?
@Devin Nash i dont think he lied about the roster decision makers. i think hes just misunderstood and worded things badly. he was saying him and parth has the final say and the one who decides on things. the coaches, analyst, players and even leena has a SAY in the roster decisions BUT its only just feedback and their opinion on things concerning rosters. but at the end him and parth has the final say.
I generally agree. The only thing is I disagree with the power dynamics between the two. The biggest problem with a higher up dating someone thy have “control over” is that it is impossible to know if it is consensual. Here however the relationship was consensual. Now it is possible that this will make their relationship toxic. But yeah
Always happy to hear your insight Devin! I'm not too well versed in the LoL side of Esports but I think there are absolutely massive shortcomings outside of just the leaking of the conversation that Leena is getting criticised for and rightfully so. I definitely agree with the massive short comings in Reggi's statement and definitely less is more in that sense, I do think it would've been more productive to explore some sort of way to remove some of Leena's involvement within the League side of things for the time being. It's pretty fair to say there's a conflict of interest in doublelift and leena's relationship, we can also conclude that because she's president its fair to suggest that she's taken a lot of responsibility to prove that she is a valuable asset to TSM and thus I'd agree resignation is too heavy handed. Furthermore, expanding on Leena's massive short comings within the statement she gave and her overall response, with further responsibility as president it's evident that some sort of change should have been proposed or made after this incident, for example the previous mentioned temporary distance from LoL division. As well her handling of "media" has been pretty poor, shes outright lied about journalists previously reporting the issue with COI in the TSM double lift move, she false framed a lot of the accusations using the riot investigation which only investigated poaching, which ultimately damages the integrity of the journalists reporting the situation. I dont know if it's putting you in a tough position to answer this sort of stuff but from your experience in esports on the business end do you think that it's reasonable for TSM to distance Leena from the LoL division (assuming till double lift leaves the org ) after these short comings and If you were Reggi what sort of methods of fixing this scenario would you explore?
I think that given what Devin mentioned about there being a disconnect with the interpretation of the ethical guidance set by the company and what Leena herself feels is right, then Leena should probably face some sort of ultimatum that clearly defines company policy, addresses where she has slipped up (such as discussing business around players), makes recommendations for change and enforces them with a 'if you break these rules again, further action may have to be taken' kind of deal. I think there is a clear mismatch in what she sees as right and what the company sees as right but she as an individual has provided so much value and is a respected part of the company and that would be why no serious action would be taken at this time. Of course, nobody is bigger than company and further/continued mistakes should lead to discipline but I'd say that's the best way to approach this. All based on my extensive knowledge of esports and business operations... #neverrunabusinessinmylife
Devin, I honestly hope you see my comment. I love your video's, they're always very entertaining to watch & your point of view always explains the situation very well
This was and is a conflict of interest by pure nature of the definition of conflict of interest. You cant argue otherwise. YOU can argue whether the conflict of interests has led to fuck ups for either side - given the evidence or lack of - but the conflict of interest EXISTS.
Nice Video, great insight! I absolutely think that firing people just for one mistake they made cause it was public isn't gonna help anything and when she has done a good job in all other situations it's also a big lose for a company.. It doesn't make sense to me, sure they'll have to talk and think over a few things and change the approach they have on it, but firing coaches in sports in general mostly isn't gonna improve the team and the players in like short period learn from your mistakes but not instant firing, only for severe mistakes and/or repitition of such
Your take is literally "hey lets trust them because theyre good people". But they already permanently damaged someones career on camera, then admitted they do it all the time. How many times has leena given double sensitive information maybe even while double is on TL? And were just supposed to trust that double is going to keep quiet and never leak anything to other teams? Its really not the PR thats hurting them, its the fact that theyre letting people know how they behave on a day to day basis.
I think there are some things that Devin says based on his experiences with the individuals involved, and his esports experience as a whole, and that is why he can make some of those claims on face value - potentially seeming biased as a result. Devin also raises the point though that discussing business in the way that they do is similar to having an affair with the secretary and thinking nothing is wrong until you get caught. I think he gives a fair acknowledgement of both the successes and positive tendencies of these people and highlights the clear mistakes at same time. When Devin says things like 'this is probably true' then he's using his background to suggest what he feels is the more likely outcome. I don't think he means to paint anybody here as the good guy or the bad guy.
@@ZupaTr00pa Youre right hes completely biased as shit. Theres no personal experience Devin could have that would make Leena a trustworthy actor in this situation. She betrayed the trust of her orginization and players, then lied to make it seem like not a big deal. If a friend did something like this to you, they would not be your friend anymore. This whole video comes off as him trying to score politics points with regi. He even name drops regi at the end😂😂.
TSM's actions reflects badly on the league Riot is running, and calls into question the integrity of the league. This alone gives Riot a reason to do something.
Wait if teams cant contact players over contract discussions then how can any1 negotiate for a new team before there contract time is up? If they have 2 year left on there contract then yeah i get it. But cant u even start a contract negotiation before u are litterly kicked out of your team. There must be a timeing window where players can renegotiate there contracr and if they dont like the offer the current team gives them, then they atleast have some time to find a new team. many team sports have a lockout/trading window for teams to offer players deals. Is this not a thing in the LCS.
He did end up winning tonnes of Championships, but he was great on TV as well. It's really hard to tell if it was him or her, maybe the opportunities were presented to him but Triple H really owned it. With NXT as well, he really has turned it into the best brand on the network. Other people like... Mark Henry went on into Office roles, he does Talent Scouting. I guess you get more opportunities??
30:10 yeah true, there are unethical executives, but in this case the unetichal problem is related to her personal life, afecting how your employees see you, and that is fucked up.
I think it's tricky because while I do believe it's possible to completely separate your personal and business life I don't think many people do it well and while you as a couple may be able to separate things, other people in the company that you cannot control may, begin to make biased decisions as a result. It sucks that people can't be a couple like they feel they want to but in this scenario it seems that it causes far too many little problems that snowball into the mess they have right now.
its not an opinion, its a fact. like there is evidence to back up not dating a subordinate, the power you have. did you not have the HR talk? you need the HR talk, if it is still your opinion. opinions can easily be overridden . best to know your facts than have a stain on your career because your opinion changed the other day.
Bro why would they even sign him its obvious that he started declining after being in a relationship with leena I think its bad business from TSM in that perspective.
What u mean?? that “Player” is lower ranks then the “President” what make u say that??? When the company itself need to pay players to make money and fame ......guess who the diamond now is the Player positions or CEO position??? If u say tsm win the championship guess what ,actually the players win the champions the player made it happen and the coach made it happen..
The only issue I have is this didn't blow up during Liquid's 4 championship run (when Leena was dating DL). It only became a big thing when DL went to TSM. Seems ingenuous and hypocritical of the community to get outraged now rather than earlier. The recent leak on twitch of her about DD is not what I'm talking about, it blew up 2 weeks b4 that and that's what I'm referring too. The leak is a huge mistake and I'm not defending that, just the fact that it blew up later is very stupid (they had almost a year to complain about it). Mentioning feedback over roster composition does not designate control over the roster ... There's no lie here. I'm sure they asked for feedback lol.
no idea why you shit on regi for the "female in esports" sentence. you agreed with all the reasons why he said that right after. he only made that comment because she was receiving so much targeted harassment and specific insults because shes a woman. he wasnt excusing her behaviour at all, he was just saying that the critisicm should be about the actions, not about her being a woman and "sleeping her way up" which you agreed with completely.
She's receiving all kinds of harassment why only focus on that one. It just seems like trying to gain sympathy. He could have said as our executive or president end of story
I think it's fine to say that he is disappointed in those in the community who did decide to make it about her gender. I think it's wrong to say that this is why most of the community is outraged... but to address that there were some who did make it about her gender, and that it's disappointing to see people still using this mindset, is fine to say, at least to me.
you said it many times in the video "many of you don't know". I like that you cover such things with your own input given your professional background but how the hell the community has a say in this? everyone is chiming in their 2 cents on how to run a business and calling calling for resignation ? another case of Cancel Culture. I don't either get the upset about the conversation next to her boyfriend, do you seriously think they don't have this conversations privately ? they live together and shares EVERYTHING. what's the difference if she took that call with him in room or not? The damage already done when they joined together under one company with different hierarchy levels, anything else has no additional effect. The discussion should be about the decision of them being together in one company and thats it.
The fact of the matter is that these kind of conversations aren't supposed to happen in front of people who are employed by you...regardless of the relationship. That's how business is supposed to work. It's called reputational risk due to conflict of interest
@@SDREHXC But he constanty makes excuses and accepts those lies and bullshit statements about "feelings" from Lena. There is no nuance here, not at all. TSM is 100% wrong and Devin should not be such an apologist for them. Fuck em. I dont like political bullshit, just straight up saying how it is. And Devin cant do that.
Don't see him making excuses or saying there is no conflict of interest. He kept things as objective as possible and broke down the situation as such, which is not something that others have done in the past couple days.
@@chrisjohnson6109 THERE ARE NO TWO SIDES HERE, no nuance, no nothing. TSM should fire Leena or Doublelift immediately, or propably Reginald shuld let go both of them. In normal business all that would be a no-brainer but of course esports always gotta be retarted.
zedrake Agents can neogotiate for a better price, but this price usually only about 5%-15% difference. His value is something he had worked for thru his career usually for a fair market price. Let alone TSM would also recieve a buyout from another team, TSM will have to reduce the buyout price. Dardoch and TSM are both damaged. Example: you bought an apple for $1, someone is willing to buy it for $2. Suddenly your frd laughed and said that apple is bad and no one want it. Now the buyer will offer you $0.8 for the apple, if you don’t sell it maybe no one else will buy it. The situation doesn’t make it fair, it damages and reduce value.
@@platinumorange1034 thru the past weeks, most people just focus on even the podcasters, about Leena's action damaging Dardoch. People don't get there are many forms of interest.
Wait a second: TSM is valued 300 Million and they don't have a PR Manager and legal team reviewing such statements?
Do they dump that money on drugs or smth? Like wtf this is terrible pr
If they have a pr team, lenna would never respondedon reddit. Even the cheapest pr team could have stopped them from making situation worse.
@@haoye2413 You say that, but it isn't true. Look up what happened with a voice actor named Vic Mignogna. He was accused of sexual misconduct and his PR people let him apologize on Twitter when he claims he didn't do it.
*Regi rolling in with 2 Mercedes and a Lambo*
Regi: Uhhh.. I can explain..
This is a very black and white view of what a PR team actually is.
Thorin was the one that showed the video of Reginald and the only reason he did it was because Reginald and Leena were attacking his journalistic integrity calling him fake news. He took MASSIVE offense to them lying and belittling his 20 years of esports journalism.
If I'm not mistaken the 8 year old Regi video was pulled into conversation because TSM also was "calling out" Thorin for using the word "cunt" and taking somewhat of a moral highground while that video was still up on TSM's youtube channel. I agree with you that bringing stuff up from the past is not the best but when people do the same that's expected.
You need to do a part 2, reddit comments from Leena were even bigger fucks ups IMO
the fact that he brings up that she is a female tells quite a lot about what he thinks of her.
The reasoning for digging into Reginalds past was because Leena was attacking Thorins journalistic integrity on her Twitter and the TSM goon squad were digging into his past so it was to show hypocrisy. I am not defending the 'past-digging' but there was a reasoning to it.
Attacking 'journalistic integrity' - or anything really - starts to turn into accusations, insults and general shitposting real quick unfortunately. People see something they don't like and immediately throw punches instead of actually discussing things relevant to the situation.
@@ZupaTr00pa It is opposite of that. If you have watched Thorin's video, you would find out that the points he made are valid for the most part, with good logic and evidence.
Glad you uploaded this! I was there for the first part of the stream but i missed everything in this video
Even if this wasn't caught on stream, can she talk about that kind of stuff around Doublelift thus giving him information about Dardochs trade value? Should that information be kept between the player and the Org only? What else has she told Doublelift that she shoudn't?
With leena and peter, its more of a trust thing. They trust each other not to use the information they overhear from each other.
Leena has info on tsm
Peter has info on tl
They overhear each other. They keep quiet.
Devin why do you ignore her Reddit comments? Reflexively turning to reddit to respond to youre inability to properly function as a vice president at one of the largest esports teams in the world is mindblowing... but then she actually threw a corporate sponsor under the bus and edited their name out of it. she also admitted to conducting these "meetings" around DL before seemingly while he was on TL??????? i mean come on dude man
Rogue16Assassin did you watch the whole video? He talks about that towards the end...
It's worth noting that the Leena apology you read was edited, the original had a few different lines, one saying roughly "at the end of the day, nobody feels worse than I do", which is a huge part as to why the community was very upset at the Leena twitlonger's.
Edit: Okay, looking at the video again I now noticed that the apology isn't corrected and is still in the video (and on the twitlonger at the moment of this edit). That makes my original statement false since it wasn't edited. However, it's still worth noting that that part of her apology did upset a number of people as you can see in my first reply.
she edited her reddit-comment to not contain Lenovo, but that's the only correction i know of
@@Manublablabla This thread was created right as the apology was posted and the top comments are all about the quote. You can check it out here:
www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/ghzts7/leena_xu_apology_to_our_community_and_josh_dardoch/
Edit: You are correct on the fact that the sentence has not been edited out, I corrected my original comment.
What I find absolutely insane is so many people clearly think a conflict of interest is once something has happened, a conflict of interest is merely the possibility it can happen.
You are wrong.
Search it up.
@@platinumorange1034 con·flict of in·ter·est
a situation in which the concerns or aims of two different parties are incompatible.
a situation in which a person is in a position to derive personal benefit from actions or decisions made in their official capacity.
The definition of conflict of interest describes it as being a situation, not an action, so you are wrong. Leena being a president of an organization while dating a player of that organization or another organization is a "situation" that is a conflict of interest regardless of whether any actions of negligence or malpractice actually occur.
Search it up.
Devin "that's my talk *clap*" Nash
You missed the mark about the old video with regi, the reason thooorin linked that video was because regi used to go after thooorin for comparing him to cesar from planet of the spes and regi was saying thooorin was racist and disrespectful, and got thooorin fired from ongamers, so he linked it because of TSM continues to try and slander him for talking about it.
Was waiting for this video as soon as i saw the stream notification!!
That cancelling opinion that Devin said is 100% spot on.
i love the talk about player unions, it always reminds me of the COD boycot, where it was the most played game by far instantly after the entire community said they were gonna not play it.
Bigpoggers on the upload brooo
>"We don't want a world where Riot is judge, jury, and executioner."
>Brings up the Echo Fox scandal, confirming that we do, in fact, already live in a world where Riot is judge, jury, and executioner.
If what happened at Echo Fox happened at TSM, Riot would have told TSM to publicly apologize and nothing more. Then Riot would have patted Regi on the head, powdered his ass, and sent him on his way.
Do you even remember the Echo Fox situation? Comparing it to the TSM situation is so insanely dumb I'm going to convince myself you don't even remember what happened.
I do remember the Echo Fox scandal. Shareholder allegedly aimed raical slurs at Rick. I'm not saying he didn't, but there's no evidence aside from hearsay saying he did.
Rick never disclosed any evidence of said slurs, and Riot never published the findings of their "investigation" into the matter.
All Riot did was release a statement saying they'd looked into it, and that Echo Fox had to remove said shareholder or sell their franchise slot. Shareholder didn't budge, and Echo Fox couldn't sell their slot, so Riot kicked them out and sold it for them.
Unlike the Echo Fox situation, we actually have more than one piece of actionable evidence that there very much is, and has been for some time, a conflict of interest (which can only lead to corruption) over at TSM.
@@FourEyedFrenchman difference is it states in the LCS franchise rules/guidelines that a behaviour like racism, bigotry etc. and one of echo fox execs broke those rules and therefore a punishment was handed out. What TSM did is not in violation with any of the guidelines the LCS set out so therefore they can't punish TSM for this. Even Dardoch can't sue them since they didn't break any laws. It's ethically wrong what happened but that doesn't make it illegal or punishable.
Yea that situation was vastly different than this situation. That was a racial issue where someone who is incredibly popular not just in the Esports scene but just the public sector in general made claims about an executive in his company being incredibly racist. Sure, you could say "these claims can't be proven" and whatever other bullshit you want to try and justify not taking it seriously. But, Rick Fox would have no reasonable reason to want to oust himself from his own company and have that spot potentially lost. Fox was incredibly passionate about Esports and started Echo Fox as a passion project. Riot obviously investigated the claims and discovered that there was enough merit to them to warrant kicking out the organization if the executive didn't leave the company. No company wants to be associated with racists, nor should they. Your comments just show extreme stupidity and a lack of understanding to how things do operate and how they should operate. I would highly suggest you just refrain from putting your opinions out on the internet in the future because they just make you look braindead to anyone who actually has any sense of logic.
At around 36:00, while I agree that people can change, I think that statements such as those made by Reginald can be indicative of people's viewpoints and opinions at that point in time and potentially of their opinions in the future too. I think a lot of people say things when you're young that you may regret - that's fair. If in 5 years something else happens and Reginald responds in a similar way, then it's clear that they A - haven't learnt from their mistakes and B - have the same opinions. For example, UK Prime minister Boris Johnson has over the past 20-30 years (documented from around 30 years of age up to this day) made various racist, misogynistic, antisemitic, Islamophobic, classist and homophobic statements.
Boris argues that “If you go through all my articles with a fine-tooth comb and pick out individual phrases, there’s no doubt that you can take out things that can be made to seem offensive." and has recently said that he meant "absolutely no disrespect to you or anybody" in response to comments he made in 1995 stating that the children of single mothers were "a generation of ill-raised, ignorant, aggressive and illegitimate children". While the validity of Boris' riposte is up for weak debate, Johnson still makes comments like these to this day and his words of 'I'm not the bad guy' are hollow and embarrassing.
One or two comments are not enough evidence to back up a claim but consistent themes over a good chunk of time can be very indicative of a person's opinion and continued viewpoints. I think if Reginald - and anybody in the world really - wants to make these apologies, then they can only make them once or twice otherwise they mean nothing and it's clear you have not changed. Reginald was 18; mistakes were made. But he's had a strike and is under scrutiny now.
Can Dardoch sue for damages? What are TSM actually going to do about besides the PR statements that every company makes and never does anything to back it up after.
the point some people can miss is that even if dardoch CAN sue, its also up to him whether he wants to sue or not. this could possibly be something that he doesnt really care about even though he should be but yea its his choice and his preference. thats where tsm fans get upset is when people are kinda SPEAKING FOR dardoch and claiming riot needs to punish tsm and all that. Andy even said he reached out to dardoch and they probably did sort something out together so i think thats fine, as long as dardoch is satisfied with the compensation he got then this shouldnt even be talked about anymore.
@@StarMagnet1 In terms of this case, maybe. But this case reflects the broken system LCS has had. It is a young industry, inflated with VC money after all.
38:03 "ethics is subjective" this statement can only be done by someone with questionable ethics.
But... They are. Is it ethical to have an abortion? Is it ethical to smoke weed? Have sex before marrige? Being openly gay?
@@Homanetic you don´t know the difference between ethic and morality.
@@Homanetic if you want to get an abortion, is not of my damn business, if you want to smoke weed is not of my damn business, if you want to have same sex marriage, is not of my damn business, if you are openly gay, is not of my damn business. See im being ethical, Even if you wanted to commit suicide it would be unethical from me to just try to stop you without knowing if you are in such a insufferable amount of pain where it would bring both of us more peace of mind if you do. morality in the other hand is what you need, in order to adress those issues which affect you.
@@irrelevant12 Correct me if I'm wrong but once a set of ethics are in place, then ethics are objective. You have to stick to the rules otherwise there may be consequences. Ethics are created by people though so inherently they are based on subjective opinions. If the CEOs think that abortion is wrong (their subjective moral opinion) then anybody in that company must communicate that abortion is wrong, if speaking from a company perspective (objective ethics). The employees may think that abortion is right but they can't spread that view while representing the company otherwise they breach their contract. I think that's how it works?
@@irrelevant12The definition of ethics:
moral principles that govern a person's behavior or the conducting of an activity.
@Devin Nash i dont think he lied about the roster decision makers. i think hes just misunderstood and worded things badly. he was saying him and parth has the final say and the one who decides on things. the coaches, analyst, players and even leena has a SAY in the roster decisions BUT its only just feedback and their opinion on things concerning rosters. but at the end him and parth has the final say.
I generally agree. The only thing is I disagree with the power dynamics between the two. The biggest problem with a higher up dating someone thy have “control over” is that it is impossible to know if it is consensual. Here however the relationship was consensual. Now it is possible that this will make their relationship toxic. But yeah
A bold move to refer to Regi as 'Ceasar'
Always happy to hear your insight Devin! I'm not too well versed in the LoL side of Esports but I think there are absolutely massive shortcomings outside of just the leaking of the conversation that Leena is getting criticised for and rightfully so. I definitely agree with the massive short comings in Reggi's statement and definitely less is more in that sense, I do think it would've been more productive to explore some sort of way to remove some of Leena's involvement within the League side of things for the time being. It's pretty fair to say there's a conflict of interest in doublelift and leena's relationship, we can also conclude that because she's president its fair to suggest that she's taken a lot of responsibility to prove that she is a valuable asset to TSM and thus I'd agree resignation is too heavy handed. Furthermore, expanding on Leena's massive short comings within the statement she gave and her overall response, with further responsibility as president it's evident that some sort of change should have been proposed or made after this incident, for example the previous mentioned temporary distance from LoL division. As well her handling of "media" has been pretty poor, shes outright lied about journalists previously reporting the issue with COI in the TSM double lift move, she false framed a lot of the accusations using the riot investigation which only investigated poaching, which ultimately damages the integrity of the journalists reporting the situation. I dont know if it's putting you in a tough position to answer this sort of stuff but from your experience in esports on the business end do you think that it's reasonable for TSM to distance Leena from the LoL division (assuming till double lift leaves the org ) after these short comings and If you were Reggi what sort of methods of fixing this scenario would you explore?
I think that given what Devin mentioned about there being a disconnect with the interpretation of the ethical guidance set by the company and what Leena herself feels is right, then Leena should probably face some sort of ultimatum that clearly defines company policy, addresses where she has slipped up (such as discussing business around players), makes recommendations for change and enforces them with a 'if you break these rules again, further action may have to be taken' kind of deal. I think there is a clear mismatch in what she sees as right and what the company sees as right but she as an individual has provided so much value and is a respected part of the company and that would be why no serious action would be taken at this time. Of course, nobody is bigger than company and further/continued mistakes should lead to discipline but I'd say that's the best way to approach this. All based on my extensive knowledge of esports and business operations... #neverrunabusinessinmylife
Devin, I honestly hope you see my comment.
I love your video's, they're always very entertaining to watch & your point of view always explains the situation very well
Nevin Dash, you are a treasure. From Poland, with love.
This was and is a conflict of interest by pure nature of the definition of conflict of interest. You cant argue otherwise. YOU can argue whether the conflict of interests has led to fuck ups for either side - given the evidence or lack of - but the conflict of interest EXISTS.
Nice Video, great insight! I absolutely think that firing people just for one mistake they made cause it was public isn't gonna help anything and when she has done a good job in all other situations it's also a big lose for a company.. It doesn't make sense to me, sure they'll have to talk and think over a few things and change the approach they have on it, but firing coaches in sports in general mostly isn't gonna improve the team and the players in like short period
learn from your mistakes but not instant firing, only for severe mistakes and/or repitition of such
* Devin takes off headphones * oh this shit bout to get real!
Your take is literally "hey lets trust them because theyre good people". But they already permanently damaged someones career on camera, then admitted they do it all the time. How many times has leena given double sensitive information maybe even while double is on TL? And were just supposed to trust that double is going to keep quiet and never leak anything to other teams? Its really not the PR thats hurting them, its the fact that theyre letting people know how they behave on a day to day basis.
I think there are some things that Devin says based on his experiences with the individuals involved, and his esports experience as a whole, and that is why he can make some of those claims on face value - potentially seeming biased as a result.
Devin also raises the point though that discussing business in the way that they do is similar to having an affair with the secretary and thinking nothing is wrong until you get caught. I think he gives a fair acknowledgement of both the successes and positive tendencies of these people and highlights the clear mistakes at same time.
When Devin says things like 'this is probably true' then he's using his background to suggest what he feels is the more likely outcome. I don't think he means to paint anybody here as the good guy or the bad guy.
@@ZupaTr00pa Youre right hes completely biased as shit. Theres no personal experience Devin could have that would make Leena a trustworthy actor in this situation. She betrayed the trust of her orginization and players, then lied to make it seem like not a big deal. If a friend did something like this to you, they would not be your friend anymore. This whole video comes off as him trying to score politics points with regi. He even name drops regi at the end😂😂.
TSM's actions reflects badly on the league Riot is running, and calls into question the integrity of the league. This alone gives Riot a reason to do something.
Wait if teams cant contact players over contract discussions then how can any1 negotiate for a new team before there contract time is up? If they have 2 year left on there contract then yeah i get it. But cant u even start a contract negotiation before u are litterly kicked out of your team. There must be a timeing window where players can renegotiate there contracr and if they dont like the offer the current team gives them, then they atleast have some time to find a new team. many team sports have a lockout/trading window for teams to offer players deals. Is this not a thing in the LCS.
can it be a really dumb way too force him to stay ? . Ruin his buy value, to keep him around ? .
Ah cool, definitely missed this stream.
im already subscribed. good content, Devin. i never comment but, i liked that one.
Look what happened with Triple H & Stephanie McMahon. Married the women as an employee & he never stopped being a huge star within the company.
He did end up winning tonnes of Championships, but he was great on TV as well. It's really hard to tell if it was him or her, maybe the opportunities were presented to him but Triple H really owned it.
With NXT as well, he really has turned it into the best brand on the network.
Other people like... Mark Henry went on into Office roles, he does Talent Scouting. I guess you get more opportunities??
Everyone gangsta untill Devin brings out notepad
30:10 yeah true, there are unethical executives, but in this case the unetichal problem is related to her personal life, afecting how your employees see you, and that is fucked up.
I think it's tricky because while I do believe it's possible to completely separate your personal and business life I don't think many people do it well and while you as a couple may be able to separate things, other people in the company that you cannot control may, begin to make biased decisions as a result. It sucks that people can't be a couple like they feel they want to but in this scenario it seems that it causes far too many little problems that snowball into the mess they have right now.
The amount of knowledge that I receive for free 🤯
I like how this guy disects everything one by one
awesome video
its not an opinion, its a fact. like there is evidence to back up not dating a subordinate, the power you have. did you not have the HR talk? you need the HR talk, if it is still your opinion. opinions can easily be overridden . best to know your facts than have a stain on your career because your opinion changed the other day.
yt keeps unsubbing me from your channel, this is at least the 3rd time
I'd love to know those good books on leverage you were talking about Devin.
51 MINUTES? ARE YOU KIDDING DEVIN?
Bro why would they even sign him its obvious that he started declining after being in a relationship with leena I think its bad business from TSM in that perspective.
Watched this live big poggers
hi devin
hi chat
devin is like the joe rogan of twitch
TRUE
Sadly Leena played the victim card on the OfflineTV podcast before Regi did
This shit is just a clusterfuck. So messy.
in the past when doublelift and i robbed a bank we didn't have many issues...
What u mean?? that “Player” is lower ranks then the “President” what make u say that??? When the company itself need to pay players to make money and fame ......guess who the diamond now is the Player positions or CEO position???
If u say tsm win the championship guess what ,actually the players win the champions the player made it happen and the coach made it happen..
so she shrugged off responsibility for her actions because he didn't have his filters on his mic.... Lmao Zero ethics on her part. lmao
You need to hit up that barber. Who am I kidding, me too 😅
WideHardo
Dom Kennedy 👌
Aye what’s up Devin
Is TSMs PR non existent
You are literally the most perfect person to be covering this 😅
They fking up real bad
and this is why you 'push to talk' when streaming
...did you even watch the video?
how does that work when you are playing league at the same time
Hi devin
The only issue I have is this didn't blow up during Liquid's 4 championship run (when Leena was dating DL). It only became a big thing when DL went to TSM. Seems ingenuous and hypocritical of the community to get outraged now rather than earlier. The recent leak on twitch of her about DD is not what I'm talking about, it blew up 2 weeks b4 that and that's what I'm referring too. The leak is a huge mistake and I'm not defending that, just the fact that it blew up later is very stupid (they had almost a year to complain about it).
Mentioning feedback over roster composition does not designate control over the roster ... There's no lie here. I'm sure they asked for feedback lol.
10th.
Oh wait. That's not 1st.
None of those statements were good.
What would you have liked to see? Which part of Leena's did you think wasn't great?
no idea why you shit on regi for the "female in esports" sentence. you agreed with all the reasons why he said that right after. he only made that comment because she was receiving so much targeted harassment and specific insults because shes a woman. he wasnt excusing her behaviour at all, he was just saying that the critisicm should be about the actions, not about her being a woman and "sleeping her way up" which you agreed with completely.
She's receiving all kinds of harassment why only focus on that one. It just seems like trying to gain sympathy.
He could have said as our executive or president end of story
Why doesn't Lena just step away from LoL until she is no longer dating doublelift or until doublelift retires from LoL pro scene?
I think it's fine to say that he is disappointed in those in the community who did decide to make it about her gender. I think it's wrong to say that this is why most of the community is outraged... but to address that there were some who did make it about her gender, and that it's disappointing to see people still using this mindset, is fine to say, at least to me.
you said it many times in the video "many of you don't know". I like that you cover such things with your own input given your professional background but how the hell the community has a say in this? everyone is chiming in their 2 cents on how to run a business and calling calling for resignation ? another case of Cancel Culture.
I don't either get the upset about the conversation next to her boyfriend, do you seriously think they don't have this conversations privately ? they live together and shares EVERYTHING. what's the difference if she took that call with him in room or not? The damage already done when they joined together under one company with different hierarchy levels, anything else has no additional effect. The discussion should be about the decision of them being together in one company and thats it.
The fact of the matter is that these kind of conversations aren't supposed to happen in front of people who are employed by you...regardless of the relationship. That's how business is supposed to work. It's called reputational risk due to conflict of interest
@@explorer678 lol surprisingly people don't get relationship is relationship and business is business
SPICY
Of course there is a conflict of interest! And its MASSIVE! How is this even a question?
You do not know what you are talking about. Unsubbed.
Is this a troll? Devin agreed that it is a conflict of interest even if Regi says it isn’t.
@@SDREHXC But he constanty makes excuses and accepts those lies and bullshit statements about "feelings" from Lena. There is no nuance here, not at all. TSM is 100% wrong and Devin should not be such an apologist for them. Fuck em. I dont like political bullshit, just straight up saying how it is. And Devin cant do that.
Don't see him making excuses or saying there is no conflict of interest. He kept things as objective as possible and broke down the situation as such, which is not something that others have done in the past couple days.
@@chrisjohnson6109 THERE ARE NO TWO SIDES HERE, no nuance, no nothing. TSM should fire Leena or Doublelift immediately, or propably Reginald shuld let go both of them. In normal business all that would be a no-brainer but of course esports always gotta be retarted.
Bit of a strange take but doesn’t this now make it ... “fair”. Like Dardoch is worth what he is worth. This way agents can’t lie
zedrake Agents can neogotiate for a better price, but this price usually only about 5%-15% difference. His value is something he had worked for thru his career usually for a fair market price. Let alone TSM would also recieve a buyout from another team, TSM will have to reduce the buyout price. Dardoch and TSM are both damaged.
Example: you bought an apple for $1, someone is willing to buy it for $2. Suddenly your frd laughed and said that apple is bad and no one want it. Now the buyer will offer you $0.8 for the apple, if you don’t sell it maybe no one else will buy it.
The situation doesn’t make it fair, it damages and reduce value.
@@haoye2413 that's a good example
@@platinumorange1034 thru the past weeks, most people just focus on even the podcasters, about Leena's action damaging Dardoch. People don't get there are many forms of interest.
@@haoye2413 yep
"dont champion females in esports", then "especialy females in esports". I know i quoted wrong but its what i got from it
Second
First
In my opinion this drama is just nonsense. Everyone can claim something. That does not mean, it is necessarily right.
This is why women is busyness is a joke