lol "it's been a really big season of Alpine climbing for me" yeah the beard says it all!! I've got my SPI assessment schedule in October and your old videos have helped me really lock down my technical systems and application of them. Thanks for all the work you've put in to these!
Alternative methods than connecting with carabiner: Tie in with a girth hitch: make a figure 8 or alpine butterfly with a huge loop. Keep the knot loose for the moment. Pass it through your harness rope loops bottom up, then pass the loop over your back, and then under your feet. Pull tight and it will girth hitch around you. Adjust the knot to be more appropriately sized. Dont just tie in with a girth hitch, it could slip in a fall and you would not mainain your position in the middle of the rope. Bowline on a bight: my prefered method. pass a large bight through your harness loops bottom up. With your right hand, grab the two strands on the standing end together and twist over clockwise to form a loop (the ends going away from you should be on bottom). Pass the bight through the loop from below, and then pass the bight around you back over your body and under your feet. Adjust the knot and you should be tied in with a bowline on a bight (look up pictures to visually confirm) Pros: you get a full, secure tie in that could never come undone accidentally and is not suvject to damage with contact to the rock. No gear is required, and it can be loaded in either direction. Cons: in guiding, a beginner could not reliably tie and untie themselves unsupervised. Undoing the knot requires being disconnected from the anchor, or using two PASs to atay connected while bypassing the loop when stepping through it. If frequently untying while hanging at a fifth class belay station, this may be undesirable. If you plan on switching who is leading and who is in the middle of the rope, or you are frequently switching betwen climbing or rappelling, this is not ideal.
I use the Clepsydra S as well. Like you say easy to use, even in icy, dusty or snowy conditions it won’t seize up on you, unlike some of the more complex mechanisms. I like this much more than 2 regular carabiners because of the weight. Not just total weight you are carrying up the mountain, but the even more so the weight and noise of two carabiners clanking around, whacking you in the crotch with every step and driving you crazy. Plus, for situations where you are clipping and unclipping it’s a lot easier and faster with just one instead of two carabiners.
7:00 an additional advantage of the double gate carabiners is that they can't "freeze closed" as the screw or autolocking carabiners does when exposed to ice, snow or freezing water, it's also good to consider those that you can manipulate without removing your gloves ;)
What's your thoughts on tying in to the middle of the rope with a bowline on a bight (Yosemite finish or some other backup) and avoiding carabiners there? That's the oldskool traditional approach
Thank you for the explanation and for your video! For me, the best carabiner to use on glaciers is the Petzl Ball Lock. It is a triple action carabiner that is still very good to use with gloves. It does not come with a clip to catch the harness, though. I always found the double carabiner solution to be clumsy if used for longer periods of time. I am wondering if there is a real possibility to reach or even exceed 8kn in a crevasse fall. Is it really likely that you can exceed that force during rescue, even with a pulley system you against the lip?
It’s actually kind of surprising how many stories there are about people being hauled into the lip, it usually ends with the folks on the glacier reversing the system so the victim can get from under the lip, but if the rescuers keep pulling that’s when people have gear break or die from being bent over backwards. Even when I’ve been teaching crevasse rescue classes every now and again you have a clinet acting as the victim get hauled into a strange position around the lip, it can happen for sure!
Very helpful, thanks!! Any thoughts on Clepsydra S compatibility with Giga Jul? I’m also considering the DMM Ceros safelock. As good, or not for alpine-ie a triple locker worth worrying about in snow?
The only thing I would worry about is if the clepsydra is to small to let the giga have the full range of movement to fully lock on the rope. If the Giga butts up agains the carabiner or your belay loop it could effect the breaking action. I think the ceros is a really good carabiner to use also, it would be pretty good in dry alpine stuff but the clepsydra is really good in wet alpine conditions.
I did some quick tests with the Eldelrid bulletproof and and the DMM ceros, and unfortunately both would actually cross load with a 8mm rope. The grivel does not look to have this issue at all because it doesn't have a twist lock where the rope will get stuck, and then cross load. I ended up settling on the DMM belay master 2, which has the plastic clip...but I have not seen anyone else really use them... any reason you can think of? Been loving dmm as of late...
Racking the belay master on your harness is kind of annoying with the plastic clip protruding off to the side and snagging on other things, although that's less of a concern if it's on your belay loop all day during glacier travel. Also seems a bit susceptible to getting snow or ice in the plastic clip which might prevent it from functioning. For glacier travel connection, I'd stick with the Sm'D triact or the klepsydra.
@@Govanification I don't use the belay master for single pitch because its a pain to rack (ceros triple locker is best I have found for single pitch with grigri)... you either have to have it snag as you mentioned or close it, which are both annoying... I use it for glacier travel only... I guess if it freezes and I have to escape system I will hit it with my hammer or spike lol but man it would have to be gnarly conditions for that to happen... having two screw gates could also get frozen, requiring pliers ... worst case you could use techniques to create a new masterpoint and cut oneself out of the system... sorry maybe I was not clear with my question.
I can’t really think of a reason not to use the DMM carabiner, but I also havn’t used it ever. If it gets both the jobs done then I don’t really think I can say it’s not good to use, maybe when it gets older and the plastic clip starts to fall out on its own then that would be a good time to stop using it for glacier travel.
Mr. Ryan Tilley, Sir! Have you looked at the new Edelrid bulletproof hms belay FG slide lock? What do you think of the locking mechanism? Note: I moved over to edelrid bulletproof for all weighted rope stuff, my ropes are so clean now. No aluminum except for quick draw or cam rubbing. Also, do you think this would work with the madrock gemini carabineer? I personally love it for the gri gri or similar. Lastly, I have been looking for a small, camp photon esk, locker with a capture device. Know of one? I've been doing a lot of easy top rope solo and my micro trax carabiner is constantly cross loading... Been using a rubber band and tape for capturing. I need a cleaner solution.
I wouldn't trust a single slide locker for my life on glacier travel. I used to use an older version of the slider with a belay keeper wire with my gigajul but I never fully trusted it, too easy to simulate accidental opening scenarios. The new one is no more secure in terms of opening from rubbing against rock/snow/ice. I use the Petzl Sm'D triact (orange gate, triple action) as a single connection to the rope for glacier travel, as I found it has a shape that resists getting caught up in a cross-loaded orientation more than other carabiners. Same carabiner shape works great for a grigri, but I use the simpler 2-stage version (red twist-lock gate). I feel you on the micro trax crossloading... it's actually a bigger deal than just loading the carabiner poorly as I've seen pictures of the carabiner gate getting snagged between the plates of the microtrax and prying them apart when loaded. I use an Sm'D again but have 2 rubber rings to hold the trax along the top bar, but not ideal. Probably the lightest anti-crossload autolocker is the grivel klepsydra, which also doesn't have a bulky gate to snag, but I haven't tried it with the microtrax. The CT RollNLock and the DMM Rhino are a perfect match for TRS, however, as the wider body of the RollNLock stays captured perfectly along the top bar of the Rhino with no crossloading possible and no need for belay keeper wires or rubber bands. I use this for my main device for TRS and the microtrax as my backup device.
I tested the edelrid bulletproof triple locker with non cross loading clip and unfortunately it is pretty easy to get it to cross load with skinnier ropes same a dmm ceros triple... but its rated so high it's prob not the end of the world to use it.... best top rope solo I have used is rescuecender bungied (around neck with thin shockcord) on top with metolious gatekeeper and a microtraxion on bottom also with gatekeeper, both on belay loop.
@@Govanification I might try rollnlock if I ever go back to tr solo...I never had the reported issue with rescuecender not locking up btw, ever. Still something to consider! I just don't have as much fun on ropes by myself... like at all so I stopped completely
Ya I’ve been meaning to get one of those new edelrid lockers for belaying, the locker isn’t a triple action, more of a double, I’ve also seen them come open in a loaded situation a lot. It’s actually really easy to get them to rub against something and open up, make me a little nervous of using them for glacier travel personally. The Gemini carabiner kind of has the same thing, where the directionality is probably ok, but it’s just a screw lock. Also the Gemini is kind of long, I like my carabiners more compact. I havn’t seen any “D” shaped carabiner with a capture loop or gate for belaying, usually companies will make them larger so the rope runs smoothly, but for devices that don’t have the rope running along the carabiner that could be kind of nice. Still I havn’t seen any like the camp photon with a capture wire.
Most of the time in glacier travel mode I want to be able to escape the knot I clip to myself really easily and as quickly as possible. A Lark’s foot would synch down on the carabiner and make it harder to take out under a load, if you’re planning to use a prussic on the load line for your crevasse rescue then it wouldn’t matter, but I like to clip the loop on my harness to the anchor, that’s where the lark’s foot would be annoying.
Screw lock biners are outdated at this point. Triple locking / automatic locking crabs are the new standard and eliminate all of these concerns. Add in a keeper and you’re golden.
Teaching clients to tie a knot like the triple bowline (or others) to connect directly to the rope in the middle is probably a reason why they just clip people in. Also easier to get out of the system if needed in case of a rescue if you're attached with carabiners.
lol "it's been a really big season of Alpine climbing for me" yeah the beard says it all!!
I've got my SPI assessment schedule in October and your old videos have helped me really lock down my technical systems and application of them. Thanks for all the work you've put in to these!
Best climbing/alpine channel on RUclips, hands down.
Alternative methods than connecting with carabiner:
Tie in with a girth hitch: make a figure 8 or alpine butterfly with a huge loop. Keep the knot loose for the moment. Pass it through your harness rope loops bottom up, then pass the loop over your back, and then under your feet. Pull tight and it will girth hitch around you. Adjust the knot to be more appropriately sized. Dont just tie in with a girth hitch, it could slip in a fall and you would not mainain your position in the middle of the rope.
Bowline on a bight: my prefered method. pass a large bight through your harness loops bottom up. With your right hand, grab the two strands on the standing end together and twist over clockwise to form a loop (the ends going away from you should be on bottom). Pass the bight through the loop from below, and then pass the bight around you back over your body and under your feet. Adjust the knot and you should be tied in with a bowline on a bight (look up pictures to visually confirm)
Pros: you get a full, secure tie in that could never come undone accidentally and is not suvject to damage with contact to the rock. No gear is required, and it can be loaded in either direction.
Cons: in guiding, a beginner could not reliably tie and untie themselves unsupervised. Undoing the knot requires being disconnected from the anchor, or using two PASs to atay connected while bypassing the loop when stepping through it. If frequently untying while hanging at a fifth class belay station, this may be undesirable. If you plan on switching who is leading and who is in the middle of the rope, or you are frequently switching betwen climbing or rappelling, this is not ideal.
Well Ryan, you gave the right answer to the problem. Use one carabiner that is suited for the task…
Excellent explanation
I use the Clepsydra S as well. Like you say easy to use, even in icy, dusty or snowy conditions it won’t seize up on you, unlike some of the more complex mechanisms.
I like this much more than 2 regular carabiners because of the weight. Not just total weight you are carrying up the mountain, but the even more so the weight and noise of two carabiners clanking around, whacking you in the crotch with every step and driving you crazy.
Plus, for situations where you are clipping and unclipping it’s a lot easier and faster with just one instead of two carabiners.
Love the videos! You seem like a great person!
Missed your videos Ryan!!!!!
great explanation! thanks!
great video thanks!
Every video is so helpful. Thank u
7:00 an additional advantage of the double gate carabiners is that they can't "freeze closed" as the screw or autolocking carabiners does when exposed to ice, snow or freezing water, it's also good to consider those that you can manipulate without removing your gloves ;)
What's your thoughts on tying in to the middle of the rope with a bowline on a bight (Yosemite finish or some other backup) and avoiding carabiners there? That's the oldskool traditional approach
Thank you for the explanation and for your video! For me, the best carabiner to use on glaciers is the Petzl Ball Lock. It is a triple action carabiner that is still very good to use with gloves. It does not come with a clip to catch the harness, though. I always found the double carabiner solution to be clumsy if used for longer periods of time.
I am wondering if there is a real possibility to reach or even exceed 8kn in a crevasse fall. Is it really likely that you can exceed that force during rescue, even with a pulley system you against the lip?
It’s actually kind of surprising how many stories there are about people being hauled into the lip, it usually ends with the folks on the glacier reversing the system so the victim can get from under the lip, but if the rescuers keep pulling that’s when people have gear break or die from being bent over backwards. Even when I’ve been teaching crevasse rescue classes every now and again you have a clinet acting as the victim get hauled into a strange position around the lip, it can happen for sure!
Very helpful, thanks!! Any thoughts on Clepsydra S compatibility with Giga Jul?
I’m also considering the DMM Ceros safelock. As good, or not for alpine-ie a triple locker worth worrying about in snow?
The only thing I would worry about is if the clepsydra is to small to let the giga have the full range of movement to fully lock on the rope. If the Giga butts up agains the carabiner or your belay loop it could effect the breaking action. I think the ceros is a really good carabiner to use also, it would be pretty good in dry alpine stuff but the clepsydra is really good in wet alpine conditions.
Interesting
I did some quick tests with the Eldelrid bulletproof and and the DMM ceros, and unfortunately both would actually cross load with a 8mm rope. The grivel does not look to have this issue at all because it doesn't have a twist lock where the rope will get stuck, and then cross load. I ended up settling on the DMM belay master 2, which has the plastic clip...but I have not seen anyone else really use them... any reason you can think of? Been loving dmm as of late...
Racking the belay master on your harness is kind of annoying with the plastic clip protruding off to the side and snagging on other things, although that's less of a concern if it's on your belay loop all day during glacier travel. Also seems a bit susceptible to getting snow or ice in the plastic clip which might prevent it from functioning. For glacier travel connection, I'd stick with the Sm'D triact or the klepsydra.
@@Govanification I don't use the belay master for single pitch because its a pain to rack (ceros triple locker is best I have found for single pitch with grigri)... you either have to have it snag as you mentioned or close it, which are both annoying... I use it for glacier travel only... I guess if it freezes and I have to escape system I will hit it with my hammer or spike lol but man it would have to be gnarly conditions for that to happen... having two screw gates could also get frozen, requiring pliers ... worst case you could use techniques to create a new masterpoint and cut oneself out of the system... sorry maybe I was not clear with my question.
I can’t really think of a reason not to use the DMM carabiner, but I also havn’t used it ever. If it gets both the jobs done then I don’t really think I can say it’s not good to use, maybe when it gets older and the plastic clip starts to fall out on its own then that would be a good time to stop using it for glacier travel.
Mr. Ryan Tilley, Sir! Have you looked at the new Edelrid bulletproof hms belay FG slide lock? What do you think of the locking mechanism? Note: I moved over to edelrid bulletproof for all weighted rope stuff, my ropes are so clean now. No aluminum except for quick draw or cam rubbing.
Also, do you think this would work with the madrock gemini carabineer? I personally love it for the gri gri or similar.
Lastly, I have been looking for a small, camp photon esk, locker with a capture device. Know of one?
I've been doing a lot of easy top rope solo and my micro trax carabiner is constantly cross loading... Been using a rubber band and tape for capturing. I need a cleaner solution.
I wouldn't trust a single slide locker for my life on glacier travel. I used to use an older version of the slider with a belay keeper wire with my gigajul but I never fully trusted it, too easy to simulate accidental opening scenarios. The new one is no more secure in terms of opening from rubbing against rock/snow/ice.
I use the Petzl Sm'D triact (orange gate, triple action) as a single connection to the rope for glacier travel, as I found it has a shape that resists getting caught up in a cross-loaded orientation more than other carabiners. Same carabiner shape works great for a grigri, but I use the simpler 2-stage version (red twist-lock gate).
I feel you on the micro trax crossloading... it's actually a bigger deal than just loading the carabiner poorly as I've seen pictures of the carabiner gate getting snagged between the plates of the microtrax and prying them apart when loaded. I use an Sm'D again but have 2 rubber rings to hold the trax along the top bar, but not ideal. Probably the lightest anti-crossload autolocker is the grivel klepsydra, which also doesn't have a bulky gate to snag, but I haven't tried it with the microtrax.
The CT RollNLock and the DMM Rhino are a perfect match for TRS, however, as the wider body of the RollNLock stays captured perfectly along the top bar of the Rhino with no crossloading possible and no need for belay keeper wires or rubber bands. I use this for my main device for TRS and the microtrax as my backup device.
I tested the edelrid bulletproof triple locker with non cross loading clip and unfortunately it is pretty easy to get it to cross load with skinnier ropes same a dmm ceros triple... but its rated so high it's prob not the end of the world to use it.... best top rope solo I have used is rescuecender bungied (around neck with thin shockcord) on top with metolious gatekeeper and a microtraxion on bottom also with gatekeeper, both on belay loop.
@@Govanification I might try rollnlock if I ever go back to tr solo...I never had the reported issue with rescuecender not locking up btw, ever. Still something to consider! I just don't have as much fun on ropes by myself... like at all so I stopped completely
Ya I’ve been meaning to get one of those new edelrid lockers for belaying, the locker isn’t a triple action, more of a double, I’ve also seen them come open in a loaded situation a lot. It’s actually really easy to get them to rub against something and open up, make me a little nervous of using them for glacier travel personally. The Gemini carabiner kind of has the same thing, where the directionality is probably ok, but it’s just a screw lock. Also the Gemini is kind of long, I like my carabiners more compact.
I havn’t seen any “D” shaped carabiner with a capture loop or gate for belaying, usually companies will make them larger so the rope runs smoothly, but for devices that don’t have the rope running along the carabiner that could be kind of nice. Still I havn’t seen any like the camp photon with a capture wire.
How come you don't do a larks foot to your gear loop and then have an alpine butterfly?
Slower than a biner but nice just being attached to the rope
Most of the time in glacier travel mode I want to be able to escape the knot I clip to myself really easily and as quickly as possible. A Lark’s foot would synch down on the carabiner and make it harder to take out under a load, if you’re planning to use a prussic on the load line for your crevasse rescue then it wouldn’t matter, but I like to clip the loop on my harness to the anchor, that’s where the lark’s foot would be annoying.
lol god forbid you occasionally check your carabiner to make sure it hasn't come unlocked.
That's prone to failure.
cancel screwgates
Screw lock biners are outdated at this point. Triple locking / automatic locking crabs are the new standard and eliminate all of these concerns.
Add in a keeper and you’re golden.
Could always just tie in to the middle.
Teaching clients to tie a knot like the triple bowline (or others) to connect directly to the rope in the middle is probably a reason why they just clip people in. Also easier to get out of the system if needed in case of a rescue if you're attached with carabiners.