BEWARE: This makes carabiners break A LOT lower
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- Опубликовано: 30 май 2023
- Carabiners break pretty reliably when pulled the way they are intended, but cross loading them can happen from the nose getting stuck to a sling catching on the gate, so what ACTUALLY happens when you cross load a carabiner.
Data is on our blog www.hownot2.com/post/cross-lo...
Carabiners loaded sideways • Carabiners Loaded Side...
Multiple carabiners in 1 hanger • Climbing carabiners do...
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I do belive Camp and all the big brands should sponsor you.... not for avoiding bad advertising but because your channel shows how much all these equipment are very good. I am sure it helps a lot of us to trust the equipment and fear a little more the human factor
I prefer him independent and honest
may be not sponsor, but pay some reward for finding issues like in this video... I mean, it does feel like crossloads are much easier than they should be
@@testboga5991 I definitely like him honest and independent and i am pretty sure this would not change. It is a little bit genuine of me thinking that but from what i know all these brands have to follow a test protocol but don't pay an independent "agency" to test it. It would be great if there is a kind of supra organization of climbing equipment that actually sponsor people like Ryan of this channel and others that give good and serous content and overall help the brands and our community...
I am such a dreamer
I never expected wire gates to be so freaking strong when loaded against the actual wire! Crazy
Alot of that is because wire gates have steel gates compared to solid gates, which are aluminum.
Engineer here: It is also because they significantly bend, making the steel not being loaded by bending, but by tension.
Not a climber, not ever going to climb anything... but I am hooked on this channel. I found it because of an interest in knot tying and I've been watching HowNOT2 videos for a week.
Same!
At least now you know, that the gear would be super good enough 😁
I’ll be making a ton of knot videos soon
I've honestly used my Metolius biners more for my hammock than climbing or rappelling the last few years, but it's still nice to know I won't have an unplanned descent while snoring.
I'm an arborist, and I use the those beefy locking gate style carabiners. This makes me feel very confident in my gear actually.
Thank you for testing the locking gate carabiners. These are what we use on our fall arrest safety harnesses at work. It's nice to know that they should indeed provide the necessary hold in the event of a fall.
Bwahaha guest co-host worked out. After he got over that initial filming period he seemed at home.
The carabiners with the fat gates are really awesome when you're working in the winter and CANNOT take your gloves off. Petzl makes some
How the wiregate keeps good contact while deforming was something I did not realise and as a result it held way more weight than I expected. If anything this is great advertising - instead of “trust me bro” number you get to see the failure and realise how the deformation is not a flaw but a feature.
Im sure some orientation where the gate is also against a corner might “open” the gate when the deformation starts, but I certainly now consider the part much stronger than initially.
It’s absolutely ridiculous to look at the two thin aluminium wires and realise they can deliver such strength. They look like something a strong guy could rip apart with their fingers.
Sure, that carabiner can hold 8kn crossloaded, but what about when you put a knot in the biner?!?!?!
Fall protection equipment. I do a lot of roofing, and I would like to see you test the ropes, harnesses, rope grabs, anchors, lanyards, and shock absorbers that are available. Also, I would be very interested in seeing different fasteners tested for mounting the temporary roof anchors and different positioning and mounting configurations for roof anchors. Thanks.
Definitely needs to test the anchors. Manufacturer says to nail every hole in the anchor but no one ever does. I have seen a guy fall off the roof with only two nails in his anchor and while it held, they were bent and about to come out. Scary stuff.
@@xavierg2950 For sure! I have always debated on the best fasteners to use, Nails vs Screws and whatnot. I have started to use GRK R4 3-1/8 #10 screws. It shows they are rated for something like 1000lbft of shear force. (Not sure what that number directly applies to.) But the shear strength is always the big concern since I'm sure nearly any screw there is has better pull out resistance.
Thanks for doing this video. Always wanted to see how they cross load and brake
Nice testing as usual. I can only hope big manufacturers (Camp, BD, Petzl etc etc) look at this and think. "OK, now how can we improve on this design"
I use those steel ones at work every day. Good to know I'd die from the shock before it ever broke.
I've also got some triple action oval aluminum ones on my descenders and it cross loads all the time. It's got a semi large gate compared to your rope access one. When I Go over an edge have to be super careful that it seats properly.
Best video EVER=D
That was super fun! Ryan is AWESOME, as is his lab!
Scary but as aborists, avoiding crossloading is difficult since branches can interfere so easily as we reposition. ISA has great guidelines to limit this happening.
I look at wire gate carabiners and am like "no way", but multiple tests are showing they are probably a better design counter-intuitively.
Leaving two carabiners on the anchors of every route you climb is a sure way to run out of "leaver 'biners."
I only do it when clips are not already there, which is becoming less common every year. But hey, I compare it to golf. Sure I leave $300-$400 of carabiners every year. That’s one round of golf at a nice golf course:D
Good to know that itll still be me or the tree that breaks, in theory.
As a trained goldfish breeder with 27 years expertise I’m happy to say I will not be cross loading my carabiner
your channel is such a great resource, yesterday i was wondering if you had tested dyon biners and sure enough, here it is
Man you must have bits of carabiner eeeeeevverywhere
Thanks for sharing
I'm always searching for shackles
being cross loaded...
Never thought that carabiner could
cross load.
I had a wire gate carabiner cross-load between my belay loop and a dyneema sling I was using to secure myself to an anchor, and when I weighted it, the tip of the gate popped out of the carabiner! Thankfully my system was redundant and I didn’t fall. I was able to replicate the incident with ease which is concerning since I was only using body weight to make it happen. Cross-loading is not ideal!
What brand/type of carabiner was it?
That's a big claim without providing the specs of the biner there buddy.
@@Nerudah aw, come on: no gear shaming. He had the best wiregate Walmart Automotive could supply.
Without getting into the supposed gear failure, what an awful way to attach yourself to the anchor!
I’ll take “things that are not true” for $100 please!
yesss! been requesting for this for many months!!
at least metal components - with sport climbing - are unlikely to exceed a fatigue limit (professionally, auminium may "fatigue out, while seel - designed for "infinite life" will not (unless corrosion sets in, then replace as logic and insurance dictates)- webbing and other synthetic components tend to "time out" - aging, regardless of use cycles..
Note tensile strength of a wiregate is "super good enough" - unlikely to die unless being a real e-diot..
So design all (wiregate)carabiners to be unstable in crossloading - make them reorient to long axis by geometry.
Thanks Ryan. Great video. Very informative.
I'm not a mountainer. Or a boulderer. Hell, I'm barely a gravel drivewayerer, but I've been bingeing your content. If nothing else, I love catastrophic failures and weird material behaviors.
_Breaking Gear Fear,_ one video at a time!! Great video Ryan, thank you for uploading! 👍👍
Hey Ryan, have you heard about carrot bolts? It’s apparently an Australian thing where the bolt does extend a little bit and does not come with a plate. The climber then slots a plate on the bolt and attaches his gear. Looks super sketchy
7:00 damn I can't believe the wire of that BD alone took 11kN. It looks flimsy as hell
You should test high ropes course equipment, I’ve worked at two around the Chicagoland area and climb regularly, but I’ve always wondered what that specialized equipment is rated for/ can take
Fun facts, I always wanted to know. ❤ Thank you for the video! 📷
Thanks for your sharing
For a second, I thought you had Bill Nye the Science Guy in the video.
I think the purpose of the ball on the clip is to aid the carabiner in rolling over in the event there is cross load. Like naturally reorienting itself. after watching those pull tests it seems it was designed that way. But with enough force in the right places it can still get stuck.
Same with the wire gates, they are strong enough to hold in place, bending before breaking.
Those Omega Biners are the ones i use for my Roofing gear. (the black ones, not that big ol green one)
I had a Camp Photon crossload on a trad fall and bent the gate quite badly to where the draw was unusable. It was on an alpine draw as well.
Cool, so a little bit of different can be a lot bad.
The edelrid 19g are terrible for this when clipping slings together (not unusual think about a draw to a cam). I think sling to sling allows the nose hook more chance to grab. Could shake it into place and I have definitely seen it irl not deliberately forced
Sick video great info.
Once I fell while on lead, and was surprised when pieces of metal banged my helmet from above. It turned out that I caught the tip of the carabiner of 2nd quickdraw below me with the belt of my harness, and it broke so easily that I didn't noticed it at first.
I would love to see some tests with soft goods and bug spray (any maybe sunscreen). In the buggy northeast, it's "common wisdom" that bug spray will damage your gear and make it weaker, but I wonder how much bug spray for how long and how much strength you lose. I also wonder if there's any truth to Picardin being safe for gear but DEET isn't, especially since I've heard it might not be the DEET that damages the soft goods, but the alcohol it's suspended in.
So is the 7 kN marking on the biner expressing an average breaking strength or a minimum breaking strength?
Well I feel great about everything now too!
I use carabiners similar to that big green one at work and they always get snagged and side loaded on the d-rings on my harness. A quick and simple fix but annoying nonetheless
Maybe it’s time to start threading some 25mm tubular webbing on top of your soft shackles to help them get less chewed up? I’m sure the webbing is cheaper than the dyneema
I actually had this happen on a lead fall. Gate bent like crazy, but nothing broke.
I know that I'm asking again, but could you test Bowline on a Bight vs rethreaded figure 8 (using a carabiner to attach to climbing harness). I'm still trying to find out which retains more strength in a rope as well as how easy they are to untie after a big fall (or more accurately, after belaying kids and adults up a climbing wall all day). Please?
I've been watching your vids for a month or two and have always wondered why you don't have any retainers to keep the ends around the breaking points. I'll bet it's because you just like to see all the parts go flying around the shop, endangering yourselves. LOL
Love your stuff, and I feel a lot more comfortable with ALL biners now than I used to.
After having the pleasure to be involved:
The parts flying are impressive as hell and make for a great video!
We are hiding behind a steel wall during the actual breaking parts…like Ryan warned me, if you can see the carabiner it can see you:D
It’s LOUD!!!!
Like no matter how loud it sounds on RUclips, it’s like a gun was shot!
(We covered our ears)
The question now is how small of a rope would slide under the bite with pressure ? It might not get out on the first try, but once it under the lock part, a different pull direction might then get it out.
After the silver BD litewire, were the next two purple Trango phase and black metolius bravo ii?
So close!
It was a black Metolius FS Mini 2
Actually my most used leaver ‘biner
Cheap
Light
Strong
Small
Perfect!
@@hummerchine my leavers as well! I use bravo iis on all my alpine draws
Next carabiner showdown should be crossloaded
decorations. please make the best climbing Xmas Tree ever this year
I wonder is there any relationship to the brand/cost?? I bought most of my quick draws in a pack that weren’t super cheap but not crazy expensive either. Latest purchase was Wild Country, 8 for around $100. Couldn’t tell you the model but I feel much better about the wire gate cross load, however… does cost play a factor? *excluding the knock off stuff of course
I have climbed all over the US and never worried about cross loading because I do not know how it can happen if you do things right. I do believe that a freak condition could bounce a biner to cross load but it is a super rare event. ???
next week, Robert Murray Smith tests a graphene-infused UHMWPE carabiner with howknot2 - 26kN....
I like Rock Exotica Rocko WireEye Auto-Lock Carabiner which prevents cross-loading. Also Petzl CAPTIV does the same.
Climbing trees with drt, my caribiners want to side load and flip over and over. I use a rubber corner trap to keep it from doing anything stupid.
Yeah this guy left biners on the anchors of every climb he did at Bruise Brothers in Muir Valley. No wonder he ran out of leaver biners. Apparently he doesn't like cleaning, that's a lot of cash to blow on replacement biners 😂
Hahaha! I’m on a worldwide mission to try to get climbers to leave carabiners at anchors! If we can just reach a critical mass of all climbers willing to leave a few carabiners each year it wouldn’t take long for all climbs to have them. I recently got a great idea….at least one manufacturer should market “Leaver ‘Biners” specifically meant to be left….like if yer using one for anything else yer become a known thief:D
Actually most climbing areas already do have either permanent steel, or aluminum leaver ‘biners such as mine left at anchors. I’ve installed about 200 permanent steel clips on routes around WA, mostly at Frenchman Coulee. I was blown away by how few routes at the Red River Gorge have clips at the anchors. Great climbing area though!
Oh, and one more point….leaving carabiners at anchors rather than threading is faster, easier, SAFER, more fun, and quicker. Like some days that’s an extra route, which is huge to me especially when I’ve traveled far at great expense.
5:08 I was shocked by how much the wire gate deformed. I suspect it’s due to the soft shackles, which makes me wonder if the same results are seen with a bolt.
Yeah the bolt broke it much faster
I never worried about breaking a carabiner when I climbed. I figured human error was the biggest risk.
In the arborist World, we'd never trust a wire gate for life support. Give me a William's Ball Lock any day.
obviously we need a carabiner made only out of wire gates
Liquid die and magnifer to check for cracks in metal?
I would totall like to see them clipped by the nose with the gate open. If indeed they can be stuck on the hanger that way. Im guessing/worried that it would be lower than the actual load of a lead fall.
I use a Camp nano to clip my dogs leash to his harness. Rarely it will somehow unlatch itself. This happens after we’re well into the walk. Any tips on stopping this?
Tape. Or a carabiner that locks
nice
I may be an amateur, but I would only climb with screw style locking carabiners
Bravo......if u broke the the carbinor anchor ......wire spring was to stop cariboner click......from rock click opening.........if u brake one......u must be big guy.........ok .....but not two.......check the wall anchor......cheers
never use carabiners from the Dollar Tree store for mountain climbing, even the fancy green ones break easily.
What is a legitimate purpose of a wiregate? I would have thought anyone hanging from a rope would use a locking gate.
Jimmyrig?
Hell No, Jerry is a better rigger!
As always, break all the things
Ooof!
OH. MY. GOD. I DID //NOT//!!! EXPECT THAT!!!
I still have no idea what "cross loading" is.
Contractors wanting to get it cheaper than trying to get them safer,
Bill Nye doing crossover vids?
Gate loading is a real booger
you guys make me glad i quit tree climbing
For the algorithmen
I'm sure I'm dee toured.
Using broken equipment as decoration is recycling
just TRY to not do this in the wilds lol
Nice clickbait having "Beware" in the title Ryan 😛 proving rated gear from reputable companies is super good enough. Would like to see this all tested dynamically on the drop tower, and not contrived scenarios on the slack snap 😀
Me too!
Just because it broke at it’s printed strength doesn’t mean it isn’t dangerous if that was your quickdraw. My next drop tower video coming out has cross loaded biners in it on accident.
Sure, but generating a 7kn+ fall you'll have a lot more problems with your body breaking than a cross loaded carabiner breaking and the next piece catching you.
@@HowNOT2 well put Ryan!
What a terrible design. I haven't climbed since the 70s, so I looked at that beener and thought "Who designed that crap?"
I wonder if the manufacturers watch your videos. I get that they test according to standards in their labs, but seeing this more real-life-ish redneck-science-approach sure is quite revealing. Did you ever get any feedback from the companies that produce the gear you destroy?
I find my beaners cross load all the time when I'm jugging up a rope using something like a belay master does the trick