You have 10 of these, one could kill you
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- Опубликовано: 27 сен 2024
- What if I gave you ten quick draws, but told you one wasn't going to hold a fall, and you don't get to know which one? Would the dirtbag in you still use them? Many of us have used draws that are over 10 years old and we tested two separate batches where each one had a result lower than the force you may get during a whipper.
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Thought experiment
01:07 How much force is a whipper
02:04 How old is too old
03:35 dog bone tested in 2020
06:09 Anchors vs quickdraws
07:28 10 Perma Draws tested in 2022
09:54 Not good perma-draws
11:14 Buying guide
16:00 What should be left outside
The data for this video is at the blog: www.hownot2.com/post/dog-bones
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Thanks for not contaminating my subscriptions page with shorts!!
They should add a uv exposure indicator strip to some of these synthetic fiber products to give a better indication of their uv degradation
I've been a gym climber for a long time now. I'm starting to transition to climbing outside a lot more and these videos have really helped me understand my gear better. Thank you for all the work you guys do!
The take away for me is, use your newest draws first and your older ones higher up, where it matters less if they fail!
You should give the draws a would/would not whip rating before you break them, then see how safe your inspection processes are. It'd also be cool to chart the failure rate by age of the draw.
A lot of those draws would have been in the "would not whip" section for me.
All of the draws that failed had significant signs of wear and were old at the same time. Dogbones are pretty cheap. I would use them for more than 10 years, but when they start bleaching and fraying it's time to retire.
Rescue technician here:
We have to spec everything to G-rating, which means we have to be 40kn+ on all of our gear.
Mainly the reason is because we're looking at 2 person loads on the system. By the time you tie knots in the rope, and run it around edges, things like that, having the highest MBS you can is best practice.
Oof, I'm getting kinda worried that some of my quickdraws are no longer "super good enough." That's the big problem with age and wear, there's so much variation in actual strength reduction that you just can't know by "inspection." But 4-8kN? Thats so much scarier than I expected.
kind of goes to show that if a quickdraw even looks slightly off, it is better to assume a massive the rating or retirement of the gear.
Yes, this is the problem. It’s hard to know when to replace because visual inspection probably won’t always tell you and since frequency and intensity of use vary just saying replace after x years isn’t necessarily helpful. But maybe it’s better to just plunk down the money and at least cycle in 3 new quick draws every few years. At least you can justify getting shiny new toys 😂
Interesting work, thank you guys. Can you mention harnesses now? I mean that's the one thing we always fall on…
Yes, please!!!!
I would particularly be interested in how the belay loop holds up for an old harness
@@emilyscloset2648 I second this. Please break some old harnesses!!
Man, this definitely has me more worried about my boss's gear that sits permanently in the bed of his pickup uncovered :|
Also a big fan of concise buying guides; that was well put together.
lol, buy him a bag....
Oh I wouldn't be, he'll probably have his gear stolen before it gets a chance to break.
That buying guide, and the concise, but not lacking information, format of this video, I found extremely helpful.
As someone who's learning, really loved the anatomy part at the end. Wish you'd do this more often!
Great video! One of the most comprehensive, understandable guides/conversations around QuickDraws I've ever seen. Keep up the good work!
Lol at how you casually used "jerking off to anchor systems and ..." I've been using that term as well, it's fun. I just found that my harness (maybe a year old) has some loose SEWN threads on the belay loop and is fuzzier than my friends'. I think the cause is that my belay carabiner has the wire for preventing cross loading... which I love but now all that rubbing... thinking about sending a picture to BD to see what they say.
Good job man. About time we called out the misdirected focus on anchors - which are over-built and unlikely to experience anywhere near the load on single points. Also worth foot-stomping that old nylon retains strength much better than old Dyneema (or "Spectra). If safety was the priority, that humble, not-sexy 1" nylon sling brings a lot to the table.
Ayy I have a lot of old dogbones I'll send your way if you want more data. Bought them off of MP 10 years ago, and they are older than that. Some have been left out in the weather. for non climbing reasons. Had this conversation with many partners about whether they are good enough, and they always stay in my garage since I am unsure. For the comment hecklers, I haven't climbed on them since college.
Love the videos as a whole!
As a beginner climber the short buying guides really help. I will be buying all my gear from extreme gear when I can. I really appreciate the work you guys are doing.
I like the idea of more buying guides. This video hits close to heart since I’ve been considering buying new draws. Thanks!
Buying guides are super useful. Please keep doing them.
Some of those were definitely lower than I would've thought, even though the majority held a large amount- and ALL of them looked like crap. I'm guessing they felt dried out and brittle too? I've found a few lost or dropped quickdraws and I've always tossed the dogbone and keep the biners if they look good. And I definitely have some "older" draws that were probably manufactured around 2010, but stored well, and kept clean. I'd do the whole once over again, but they're most likely super good enough. If I never comment again, I guess I was wrong!
Thanks for the data!
I’d say “add a UV blocking cover” but then no one will inspect them. Maybe a marking that appears as sun fades it.
Or not have perma draws at al unless they have made of metall. They removed all perma draws with uv covers from my local crag after they tested a couple and they broke close to half streght. Think water and freze cykles might have done a number on them.
I wonder if Edgeworks would let you put a collection bin "Old dogbones for HowNot2 testing" by the entrance. I would totally donate.
love the buyers tip. One main consideration for draws is usage. For sport climbing, the thicker the dogebone the better. Thicker is stiffer making it a ton easier to clip on lead. The Dyneema dogbone is supper floppy and a pain in the ass when it comes to sport leading, they do come in handy tho when you are racking up for a trad route and need draws for extensions.
Oh man. So you're saying I have to replace my blue water quick draws from 1997? ( thanks for the content )
I really love this kind of data that makes it easier to understand how equipment strength diminishes over time!
I think it's a super valuable insight that you pretty much can't really get from your own experience - thanks a lot for that! 🙂
Best channel on RUclips. I don’t climb yet. Only boulder currently. But I feel so much more informed for when I start
Buying guides are more than welcome!
Love the idea of older gear test helping the community make good and informed decisions. Thank you so much for the work you do Ryan. I’ll have a hunt around for some old gear to send you.
I recently bought a bunch of new dog bones when I inherited a family member's old climbing gear. The carabiners I'll gladly keep on using for a few more years. But for about 4 euro per dogbone, replacing those seemed like a total no-brainer to me.
TLDR: replace your dog bones after a few years, they're cheap.
Well I guess I should get some new dogbones (looks like extreme gear sells a few options) to replace them on my old draws. At least for the draws I use lower down. Important to stay aware of when a fall (especially if gear fails) is a "free rope swing" vs a costly evac or worse.
The buying guide really helps👌👌👌👌
It's also worth noting that you'll likely need to surpass the forces demonstrated in the video, as there is only a burst of high force during a fall. That said, the difference isn't large, due to the fact that most of the damage during the force ramp-up occurs towards the end
This is fascinating stuff. The range of wear is interesting. One thing that you probably have heard before, but it's about how dirt and especially salt can wear fibers. This is from a dry cleaner friend. He said that salt in clothing, from sweat or salt water exposure would get into fabric, and when it dries it forms crystals. Like kosher salt in the kitchen, but microscopic. Then, when you flex the fabric, those tiny grains cut the fabric. No idea if it was just something to get people to dry clean their clothes more frequently, but it sounds like it could have some truth behind it.
Amazing work you guys! Thank you for all the good data.
I don't climb, heck you can't get me close to a cliff. I still love this channel. You're doing a great service dispelling tribal knowledge and rumor with data. It's just....goood stuff man. Good Stuff.
About a decade ago back when I actually trad climbed a bit, I took a 10 meter whipper after my quickdraw snapped. Came about a meter from the ground. Shit my pants a little. Ever since that I replace my soft goods every five years or when they show heavy wear. A few hundred dollars in gear is a lot cheaper than a funeral.
are the pigments actually designed to fade in UV light in order to indicate damage? If not, should they be?
Love the whole video and the buying guide!!
I enjoyed the little buying guide at the end. Especially nice that you included the weight of the products.
Great video Ryan! And excellent thought experiment, you're absolutely right about redundancy on anchors vs the first few quickdraws...how could that be improved? Now that's a video suggestion xD leaving jokes aside, you can be like opening a sport awareness change in security in this matter...great content as always!!
Always enjoy your videos this one came at the perfect time. I've just been contemplating replacing some of my second-hand quickdraws. They're probably super good enough but I've no idea how old they are and how much they were used or what for previously. This video definitely backed up my decision to buy some new dogbones! I'd send the old ones to you but postage from Scotland probably isn't that cheap. Also really enjoyed the buying guide, nice and succinct, and to the point and I would have found this really helpful when I was first starting to build my rack. Keep up the good work, you've really helped me build confidence in the gear I use!
You guys are doing the essential work, thank you
Yes. The buying guides in videos where they are relevant are welcomed.
Hi I definitely love the gear buying guides, definitely helpful
Yes, buying guides and explainers are very helpful! Thank you!
Would be great to see quick draw manufacturers keep retention samples per batch for long term storage testing!!
I would be pretty certain that they have those samples.
Pretty certain that Ryan will not get his hands on official retention samples.
Some of those retention samples are reserved for the worst case big accident and law suit case.
Some are surely regularly checked.
Some may go in and out of storage regularly, just as a base of visual comparison.
The interesting question is: What happens after 10/15/20 years, when any liability has ended.
Do they just get thrown out? Tested to destruction?
Great video!! From the first batch that were reported as not permas. The condition of those things, that failed at low values, looked bad to me. I would not have had them on my rack. Faded and fraying to the point that they sure looked like draws that had been permas or left on climbs in the weather quite a bit.
I think it would be good to focus on that point.
Also seems we should not be using fabric permas much. This is great info to put out there guys!!
both dynema and nylon degrafe with exposure to sunlight however never keep nylon gear in wet/humid conditions as nylon absobs water faster than any other synthetic polymer i recommend storing nylon with a desiccant as storing in a humid enviroment will reduce its lifespan by up to 2/3rds
Do you have a source for the 2/3rds lifespan? I'm aware that nylon is hygroscopic from 3d printing, where wet filament prints terribly because the water boils in the nozzle, but I didn't know moisture actually causes nylon to degrade.
Buying guide has been very helpful
Thanks for the hard work you put in those videos! Also love the buying guides
That sound at 8:11, amazing! Someone should lay that under a clip of a person biting into a snack or something
buying guide appreciate .. definitely
Respect to that big fella for taking a 7kN whip for science
I'm curious to see how very modern (2018 onwards) synthetic blends of soft goods like the technora/nylon blends in ropes like the swift protect by Edelrid (as well things like titan slings which I think are nylon/spectra, but those have been around for around 30 yrs) will do once they pass the 10 year mark.
love the buying guide!
I have the camp dyon carabiners for my alpine draws and can confirm they are the bomb. So easy to clip in and out of with the hookless design
Very useful informations that they can save your life. I want to say about another serious problem that causes a total destruction of the carabiner of a quickdraw when you leave it outside specialy to this that is connected with the bolt. I'm talking about the electrolysis that happened in this carabiner. That happened because of the different metal they are (carabiners are a mix of different metals and bolts are also). This phenomenon happened near to the sea because of the salt (salt by the humidity of the waves can travel miles in to the mainland). I have seen a lot of times carabiners totally destroyed after only one year of exposure hanging on the bolt. ( they become like dozens of aluminium foils together specialy near to the trigger.) Have a nice climb all of you.
Showing this to my dad, he would happily wip on a selfmade, hand made harness and a 20 year old quickdraw. 😅
Wonder if you could work out a was to test single strand strength before breaking them to see if there’s a way to roughly calculate it to a consistent single strand breaking value that can determine if it’s going to fail.
The noises those old desert ones made while breaking will haunt my dreams.
Love watching these videos deffo need some new dog bones for my rack I have learnt a lot thank you from the UK 🇬🇧 🙏 🙂
Did you come up with any rule of thumb to translate these quasistatic stress tests to those where the shock force is applied in milliseconds? I.e., what would this be under a fall tower test?
Good stuff guys. Thanks for the info. I've got a bunch of older stuff that I'm bit suspicious of.
Excited for next week!!
Are you recording all the broken equipment? Gotta start making some graphs and using statistical tests soon ;)!
Yup..... I'd just only plan to use 5, and double up on every use.
@6:22 Thank you! yes people over complicate the top setup
ok, next dumb question: not knowing the history of a quickdraw that's been left on a climb, how much weaker would a dogbone be after say, 5, 10, 20 or even 30 whippers?
The buying guide was legit. Had no idea edilred made biners with steal inserts. Those would last ages with normal use I imagine.
So as a mitigation, could you double up quick draws for which failure would result in a ground fall? If the bolt is good enough to fit 2, or if you clipped the 2nd draw to the first, essentially a secondary back up for the first and clip the rope through both?
The answer is, nominaly, yes. However, if you have doubts about the strength of a dogbone...how much do you doubt it ? If you put in there 2 shitty draws that are able to whistand 1Kn each, you'll still deck. So why bother with putting in two draws that are "maybe not so strong", when you can use one that you're perfectly sure will hold ?
Awesome. Thanks
Love your videos! I was watching this one and wondering if there would be a different result with an instant shock like in a whip compared to a straight slow pull till it breaks like you are doing here. I’m curious to see if that gear would hold up to a sudden impact better than holding the force until failure.
Totally agree.
I did a pull test on an old dyneema sling and it broke at half it's rating. I retired them about a year later. I'm certain a lot of the pro I place is below 10kn.
Very useful data - thanks !
I like the buying guides, specifically because I trust that you aren't in bed with the manufacturers (which I can't say about a lot of other climbing channels with buying guides).
The one feedback I'd say is that it might be helpful to have the buying guides be separate videos because that lets people search "Quickdraw Buying Guide HowNot2" or whatever. I don't think, based on the title, that I would know this video contains a buying guide. But I'm a bit hesitant to say this because I know it's probably more work to have a separate video, and I wouldn't want it to take away from your work breaking stuff which I value so much.
Have you asked any of the manufacturers if they put in an UV marker into their synthetics like two different pigments for similar colors where one is UV sensitive. I feel like I will avoid gear with out any neon colors since faded colors is obviously among the easiest way to spot UV damaged gear.
We were curious how badly a new Spectra/nylon draw could be damaged before failing, grabbed our fearless aid-climbing buddy, and had him whip at roughly fall factor 1 onto a floor-anchored gri-gri in our gym. Cut halfway through, no problem. 3/4ths, fine. Finally cut it down to maybe 1/8th, still didn't break after several falls. Our crash-test human wouldn't have it, climbed up again, and this time literally hurled himself down from underclings. SNAP! Broken biner of the 'wrong-side gate' variety, and the dog-bone was vanquished as well. The biner mentioned was the catch point, and although the rope stayed inside, it was a sobering moment.
On close inspection, it was clear that only the nylon had snapped and the two! Spectra strands had merely pulled through the bar tacks. I stopped worrying about new sewn products failing.
Loved the buying guide
hmmmmm, old tat on trees/ rappel anchors strength. Could be a good test. Always curious about their strength. Redrocks has lots of that around. Cheers.
I have a bunch of quickdraws that I’ve never used and have been stored in a dry, light free environment. 8 years old. I wonder how good they are ? Dyneema.
Only looked at the title. Instant reaction: that's not how probability works
Fun video! Maybe the quickdraw intro / detail could go earlier in the video and serve as basis for some of the testing? Its unreal how much gear you have to break
This isn't scary at all, if anything it shows all the things to look out for when inspecting your gear.
I always think of a Quickdraw as a serviceable item. Dogbones & slings can be replaced when the old one wears out and individual carabiners showing damage can be replaced. (Rope wear, sticky gates etc)
After the initial investment, it shouldn't cost as much to replace components over the years.
Love the gear guides!
thanks, been waiting for this :)
Draws have come some ways. Dang
Great video. And Supper Good Enough.
the buying guides are super good enough
I often soak my dogbones in DEET as well
The sound at 8:11 !
Buying guides are cool. I usually do my own research, but RUclips is also part of that research.
Love the camp nano coloured ones for racking cams. So much easier to find that .5 when you’re sh!tting your pants
Could you use two quick draws on the first clip in point if you are still using older gear and are in any doubt. Or buy a new one every year and be mindful of clipping in on the first few clips with the newer ones.
Buy guides would be cool.
Aaaaand I'm reslinging my bought-used cams
‼️Deep colours really help signaling sun damage‼️
If you are just the usual hack climber, not someone setting the standard, just buy 1" in bulk, tie your own knots. That is how we did it, and never broke a thing. Gear weighs slightly more, and you get stronger arms.
uhuh, anchors are bomber - those little scraps of webbing in the quickdraws... a doubled up webbing w/c-ould make all the difference.
permadraws could easily have nylon covered steel cable incorporated for a bomber time and sun tolerant device. (or stainless steel woven endless webbing) - ok 16:02 - the indistry got there (logical leap really).
3:11 this is how I reffer to the pandemic era from now on
Hey Guys why we are not taking 2 Karabieners and a climbing rope this will last for ever or not ?
More guides please. Cheers!