The missing thing in this write up is the width of the narrowest part of the crack simulator. And of course this must not change during test. Without this information, all the "came out" tests are useless.
I understand that might sounds strange to people from other parts of the world, but the Czech sandstone is pretty small area and it's part of national park. Even that there is some climbing allowed is really surprising. The sandstone is really brittle once the other layer of sediment is breached. You can see the damage is couple months and once it's starts, it is only getting worse. And there is really no good way to stop it in natural way. So it is either soft pro or no climbing.
Yea like 10% of sandstone climbing is inside a national park? Its many areas, one inside of a NP And some inside of CHKO, some not even protected area. I don't see how glue in bolt would mean big damage to the stone...
Has anybody actually seen a cam or nut legitimately damage rock when used properly? Cuz I've never seen it. One of these monkey fists is gonna get somebody killed without question.
@@amsbeats841 oh yea it would damage the rock for sure, the rock is like really soft sandstone. And also those monkey fists have killed, seriously injured people for sure already. However gluein bolts would not make substantial damage to the rock i believe. And it would be cool if at least some areas which are not in national parks or otherwise highly protected could be bolted. I dont think thats gonna happen in the next 15 years for sure, people are just too conservative and elitist to let that happen. They would rather chop the bolts off and let the rock deteriorate than let you have a sport route on czech sandstone..
@@partybather Right. I mean it's their country, if they want to set these rules then they have the right to. But I'm with you, just bolt the damn rock. It will save lives, people get to climb and the "damage" to the rock is so minimal. But it's their rock not mine lol.
@@amsbeats841 yea well Im from here, so its kinda my rock too. We still have different rock which is usually not super well but good enough bolted. However if I want to climb hard I rather go climbing to austria, slovenia, croatia… Kinda sad. My oppinion is that I wouldnt care if they keep the old areas as they are, but you cannot even go and develop your own crag with bolts, which kinda sucks, because the sandstone is really cool rock. You can at least boulder it as you please..
Hey, I'm climbing my whole life in the Saxon sandstone and I have never used a monkey fist. There are just a few situations where a monkey fist can be advantageous. For example in an offwitdh (and if the crack has a "cone"Form). The majority of the local climbers uses figure 8's and if you climb a wider crack you use a sling with more diameter like a marine rope. The figure 8's have to be placed very well. Usually they just slip and don't brake. Therefore we use a special stick ("Spatel") to place them that they don't move if you fall. I already "tested" a 3mm dyneema/polyester figure 8 and it worked^^ (my feet were 0.5-1m above). Another point is that there are routes with enough rings. Especially in higher grades there are often no possibilities to place slings and then you find more rings. And therefore it is also possible to "push your limits" and take the risk of a whipper. It's often just a bigger whipper. In Saxon there are routes up to 8c which are protected with a mix of rings and slings.
Love the gear testing you guys do, I bet this is the first time someone has actually measured the strength of those knots. Coming from a guy who likes data on his gear and not trust on blind faith, your channel is just awesome.
I know it may sound weird, but these rules actually make sense when you know about the sandstone in Czech republic (and in saxonian part of Germany for that matter) The sandstone is quite special there the surface is quite hard, but only because the hard elements settle on the surface when water travels through. Beneath it’s basically a pile of sand. So if u damage the surface sufficiently with metal gear (stoppers cams or bolts) all those beautyful towers will eventually crumble to dust. Bolting there is also very difficult for that reason. So it‘s either use knots and webbing, destroy all the rocks or don‘t climb at all. I know what I would choose😊 (although I‘d be shitting my pants😅)
they already have rings, as seen in the video. properly installed glue in bolts using stainless would make much more sense and would be unlikely to damage the rock considerably, provided care was taken when drilling (which people have already done anyways)
My friend was climbing in Frankenjura, the hold blew off and so did all the monkeyfists, he took some 35 m fall. He survived, but he is never going to walk again, or do any sports.
*Subjectively defending these knots* Being from czechia but learning to climb on french sport routes and climbing back home later there is just something extra for me here that comes with this style. Climbing on sandstone here, simply put, comes with something more spiritual and sometimes bluntly said - it seems like free soloing with extra steps (if you decide to take on the less protected/able route). It is often more about the history, the culture, the tradition, the connection with nature more than just crushing grades. If I want to go crush grades I’ll go to a sport crag instead. This being mentally chalanging it is left to a much smaller group of individuals willing to take on the experience (the mental battle/risk). (Also it leaves you with an extra skill to learn that being placing good pro.) This way it ensures less erosion happens. A sad example of this is Pravcicka Brana (the largest sandstone arch in Europe), that was fully accessible in the past lost about 3 feet in thickness and had larger cracks appear from overuse and was later closed off in 1982. Also looking at it from a point of view of the park rangers these formations are primarily in national parks and we are lucky having even got the exception to use them for climbing at all, I’d personally much rather see them being climbed on in the coming decades than allow everyone in by bolting it all.
Absolutely! I'm from neither Czechia nor Saxony - but I totally 'get' that there's more to rockclimbing than just doing hard moves; and at a time when, all over the world, rockclimbing appears to be becoming increasingly focused on safe physical difficulty it seems more than ever vital that we preserve those few areas and traditions wherein wider ability - ie mental as much as [or more than] physical - is what counts. If we lose them I doubt that we'll ever get them back.
Short explanation about the test that was done on real rock in 2010 since it might be difficult to get the translation from german. It was conducted in an old quarry which is now used as a climbing crag. For ease of access, two crack constrictions a bit over 2 m above ground were chosen for the test. The upper constriction has a conical shape and a width from 11-13 mm, the lower is much less conical (more flat/open) and has a width of 12-13 mm. Slings of 3 different diameters (6,7 and 8 mm) were tested, always with the double stranded figure of eight as the stopping knot. The measuring device was connected to the sling (hanging directly under it). For the fall tests they used a 50 kg weight connected to the lower end of the measuring device with a double-stranded sling with a length of 1.5 m. The weight was pulled up using a second rope to a height of 1.5 m above the measuring device and released, resulting in quite hard falls with high impact forces. Results: Knots can hold falls, if they are suitable for the respective placement (a constriction is neccessary, ideally with a conical shape). Constriction width needs to be smaller than at least two times the cords diameter. When dealing with “flatter” constrictions larger sling diameters are necessary in order to prevent the sling from moving, getting damaged as it slips and ultimately failing. The rock wasn’t damaged by the falls! Maybe it’s of interest for some viewers.
@@johnbrewington2539 Have you looked at the actual forces that were measured when the sling held? They lie between 3 and 7 kN (4.48, 5.67, 2.86, 6, 7.23, 6.25, 6.89, 6.11 kN). This is well in range for the forces occuring at bolts during lead falls (there's a video on this very channel documenting the forces of lead fall in a gym + documentation for instance on the Petzl website). But more extensive tests would still be good ofc. Hope my comment doesn't get deleted this time (for whatever reason that was).
yeees tradition :D I believe that on sandstones in Germany Sachsen, the ethics is to clip rings when they are at your waist level maybe someone can confirm this Jenny got that part right right about the knots, in theory they might save you but you dont want to test them there is another side to this, our sandstone gets damaged with people climbing it, to a point that there are literally steps on some routes that get climbed a lot, so this shitty protection that makes climbing more psychologically demanding deters many climbers so the rock stays preserved ,if that makes sense
Thanks for the video, as a person now loving on the German/Czech border, this has become my new climbing reality! Good to see at least some of the knots would hold the peak force of a typical whipper, even if on the test they all just fly out like crazy 😂 One kind of cord we use here is a kevlar cord. In theory they are as strong as a 10mm rope but at just some 4mm. I really like to place them for the same reason Jenny points out: they are as solid as you can get some textile to be (until pulled in the slack snap, of course...). It would be interesting if you could test some of these to see if they really perform better than the paracord or the 4mm static cords! If you can't find them in the US I might be willing to shipping some your way :) Also good to know that I'm not the only one who climbs here with the mentality of "just lead what you can really climb without falling". It is limiting to what I climb and I do climb a lot less often on rock here than I did before (back in Rio de Janeiro), but it is the reality, and even though the tradition is silly at times, the rocks would probably erode due to intense use if it was all bolted like sport routes... A hard situation to solve.
I am thinking it should be possible to make bolts that is specifically for sandstone? Something wider/longer. Spreading the load over a bigger area. This way it should still be much better than this xD Or create cams that have some softer edges for sandstone.
@@SonnyKnutson dude, there are bolts placed in that area, just not in the same density as in a sport crag. And yes, these bolts are specifically designed for the sandstone with a shaft length of over 20 cm and a diameter of > 2 cm. They are designed to last for up to 80 years. This is not a sport climbing region.
A well set kevlar knot would probably do well. I think soft shackle button knots might also do well since they get rock hard. We will be testing UFOs soon.
@@SonnyKnutson Like Franz already replied, there are specific bolts for this regions (called "rings", because it is a think ring in a long shaft bolted into the sandstone) but there is kind of a rule that they can't be placed closer than 5m from each other. And the "soft cam" is a device called "UFO", Ryan said he is going to test it and I'm super excited to see how that one goes!
@@HowNOT2 Cool, thanks! And true, Probably getting some rock hard knots is the best strategy... maybe that is why many people like using old, retied ropes to make these knots. They are rough and have a lot more friction onto itself than new ropes! (Also it's cheaper. Also it holds less force than a new rope, but super good enough in this scenario, I guess). Awesome, looking forward to the UFO tests! :D
Would have really love to see just a few "realistic" style falls on it. Factor 0.5, a human belayer who can get lifted and maybe a spring connecting the mass to the rope to simulate human body shock absorption. It is essential to test the worst case, but the typical is good to know too
We have already a solid base line for what force is generated by a whipper. We needed to break or rip out these pieces to learn about the pieces. To test forces of whippers is an entirely different objective. 6kn is a hard whipper. Our record is 8kn with a 290lb climber with a fixed belay.
@@HowNOT2 I agree, the outcome in my mind wouldn't be the force generated, rather it'd be the state the gear is in after the fall. When you do a drop test and get 6kN, we don't know if that means that it would hold a normal lead fall (2-4kN) no problem and could do so fifty more times, or if it'd be mangled and sketchy afterwards.
@@perplexedon9834 More likely it would be stuck as opposed to completely mangled. Most textile pro is made out of slings, cord, or old rope bits. If they don’t rip out and do hold the fall they’re often impossible to remove rather than shredded.
@@HowNOT2 usually the gear we use is super bomber and hard to break. These knots are the exception! :) But the main thing here to me is...super nicely done. Testing pro in rock seems to be like one of the hardest things to test, and we just saw pro tested in rock on the drop tower -- does not get much better than that!!
I'm an overweight dreamer of what you do so I have no opinion on what this video is about but you have motivated me to start doing pull ups and cardio so I can start climbing in some small way. What a cool sport.
If you have a climbing gym near you just go and climb. I have almost no upper body strength at all but got to V4's pretty quickly before I fucked up my foot (unrelated reasons).
This was really common practice back in the dawn of lead climbing. When I was 16 my friends and I climbed at the Gunks in NY. It was like 1990. We had no money and had an old climbing book. It showed knots, slings, and literally nuts on ropes. So that is what we used to supplement our single set of wire nuts. Eventually I bought a few cams and more real gear. But being able to improvise was always an option. Even later when I moved to Utah and was sport climbing, I made my own Quickdraws and slings. Using webbing, water knots and electric tape.
I climbed the gunks with my cousin as a teenager somewhere around then. We just scrambled up the cliff and got to the top and someone asked where our ropes were....I had trouble sleeping when I thought about it that night.
Really cool that you test some knots like in Czech/Saxony climbing. Would be very interesting if you guys test some of the famous Czech UFOring which is the evolution of the monkey knot
@@angelperezlopez7424 UFOrings and ObrWorks are both types of UFOs. Lets understand, that word "UFO" is intend as this type of climbing protection, not one particular product. Similarly like word "nut" or "cam". The applealation is from time, when this type of protection had been very rare, it was new invention and there had not been any manufacturer to produce them comercialy. Just few people know how to make them and they DIY for their own usage. And in these days rumous started to spread inside sandstone climbers community, that there is some new sort of climbing protection, that can be used on sandstone in harmony with rules of sandstone climbing and sandstone climbing tradition. And it works even in cracks that do not have any narrowings. So people heard about them, but nearly nobody has seen them - do you see some similarity with common usage of word/abbreviation UFO here? ;) And I am from Czech Republic, so if you have serious interest about getting some I think I can buy some and send them to you. But do not have any idea about shipping and customs fees.
@@HowNOT2 I really look forward to this video. Living near Saxon Switzerland, so basically on the German side of the same sandstone formation, I contemplated buying UFOs since their creation to complement our collection of knots and slings. Also, to comment on this video, we often use slings on knolls or bottlenecks too, which one trusts a lot more than knots :)
When I tried to think of a stopper knot that would expand as it was pulled with friction on the outside, the only one I could imagine was the Oysterman's, or Ashley Stopper. I'm a bit disappointed that you guys didn't think of it. Arguably it's a subset of a monkey fist, but equally arguably a monkey fist is an Oysterman's with extra layers wrapped around the outside to squish and slide. The monkey fist is, after all, not actually a stopper knot but a makeshift weight or wrapping for one.
yeah I never heard of using a monkey fist for anything except as a weight but then again I don't climb 🤷 idk why YT even recommended this vid to me but here I am watching it anyways because it was interesting 🤣
I know that usually these reading are meant to be indicative, but here, where soft catches play a big role in belay technique, I would be curious to see dynamic catches on these pieces of gear. Realistically, people do not just fall hard and short on gear like this. The lowest breaking forces measured were pretty miserable...but there were a few that suggested the webbing or cord broke before the knot slipped. In those cases I would like to see what happens in a dynamic situation. Obviously knot pro is fucking crazy but I feel like it might be less crazy than this video suggests. It cannot be the case that everyone who climbs in Czech is basically free soloing...and that there are not tons more injuries and deaths.
The point of the extra harsh drop tests is to stress the gear until failure so they can get a max force reading. Replicating a more realistic leader fall wouldn't tell you how strong the placement was. From there we can infer which placements might actually hold a leader fall in a real scenario where the load is unlikely to exceed 5 or 6kn on the top piece.
Hey Arnold. I can’t break the gear if we test it with a “realistic” belay. It generally doesn’t generate enough force. If we get it above 6kn then it’s probably going to hold in the more realistic scenario. I think there are less deaths in Czech because it’s Darwinism at its finest. I don’t ever plan on climbing there and people who do are climbing several grades below what they would if they were on a sport route.
I am from saxony and i use knot slings a lot at other climbs too. so i can say it works fantastic at limestone cracks usually better than wires for me because the knot can better adapt to the form of the rocksurface. :) and for removing if one of our knots get stuck we have a wooden stick ca. 40 cm long similar to a nut tool to get the knot out.
By the time you got to the monkey first, your bolts were bent. That means that, at the moment of impact, the gap isn't as small as you think. The plates will separate a little. A bit of a problem with that test. Great fun to watch, even more fun to watch an improved test!
Whipped several times into slings and knots and belayed lead climbers that fell into them. With falling distances of around 8 meters (25 ft): Since I am still writing this, they obviously hold up if placed correctly. Most of the times they also come out, but its not fun, also the outer shell often cracks open and reveals the core which complicates removing them further. As some other comment stated, we sometimes use sticks or wooden spoons to get the gear in and out. The monkey fist is - at least on my part - mostly used on wide placements, i.e. you would tie it from material larger than 10 mm diameter. There is a subsitute made of webbing, produced in Czech Republic called UFO sling - I would be very much interested if you tested these. Perhaps Jenny can hook you up? And concerning her statement on eroding the rock or it being soft: It is true, most the surface isn't that soft but very coarse. However, this usually applies only to the grey and black areas as shown in her pictures, which is an outer layer that has oxidized through natural processes (UV, weather and stuff) and is hence hardened. If you break through this shell of around 5 millimeters, the rock becomes yellow/orange or almost white. And this then is the stone that can easily be eroded: Your fingers gripping it, ropes and even wind. Since top ropes often have some point of contact to the cliffs, the ropes cuts into the stone there revealing that softer material. That and people not up to the difficulty of the route (often breaking features) are some reasons why top ropes are prohibited. Keep up your work, always interesting and funny to see ("That's how Dogecoin looks" had me nearly lying under the table).
Not all rocks should be climbed, and this is coming from someone looking at a cliff and feel sad when climbing is not allowed. So if only textile pro is allowed for an area, then so be it. It's either that or the park won't allow climbing at all, so take your pick. Maybe the ethics can be modified to better protect the rock and not leave junk behind and all that, but it's not for us to say. I get the whole climber safety concerns, but maybe climb somewhere else that allows standard pro instead? We climbers do need to remember that climbing is a privilege and not a right.
Sandstone here (im from czech republic) is fragile so if u want to place ring you need to dril a large deep for the long ring to hold proplerly. The reason why there aren't rings on every meter it becouse the czech sandstone never was(and hope never will be) a beginer place to go climb. If you head a ring on every 2 meters the routes will be much more crowded and therefore causing much more erosion on the sandstone - the route will be ruined in 5 years. Right now it is (and always was) an experienced climer destination and it is for the ones that have the balls to climb it Ps. Sorry for my mistakes
More traffic would be bad. I agree. I like the idea of a permit system limiting traffic, not forcing people to risk death in order to limit the traffic.
@@HowNOT2 Thanks for the answer. That could work to solve the crowdines but you will still need to make a big deep hole to the sandstone to place a ring and to bolt a whole route like this would be kinda disrespectful to the nature if you know what i mean. Also almost all of the sandstone here is in national parks so you want to leave the sandstone as "pure" as posible. There is an old tradition for the bolting here on the czech sand stone. If you want to bolt a route you have to do it from the ground up with no fixed rope from the top. Just climb to the spot that needs a ring hang on drill your hole while either holding or siting in your personal "protection". Adam Ondra did a video on this ruclips.net/video/h-3m1jdR8rs/видео.html I found it very intresting and i think that it would be disrespectful to place some more rings to an allready bolted route. The placement of the rings is kinda like seting a route in gym. You can't add another hold just becouse it is hard. Thanks again for reply, im a fan of the chanel and love what you guys do. Again sorry for my mistakes
If one reads about the history of mountaineering and climbing, one would be amazed at what was used by clever early climbers. Nowadays, we climbers are so lucky to have the tech and gadgets we have.
Teton Mountaineering Shop, in Jackson,WY has interesting display on walls of old equipment ‘rescued’ from mountains. The Teton National Park Ranger Station had on display, for awhile, cams and other pieces, which were salvaged after a direct lightning strike, years ago. Goosebumps looking at multiple titanium cam & nut cables melted~ruptured by lightning hit. Stay out of mountain weather!
I'm one of the probably many people that suggested this! So happy to see it. Thanks heaps, the new setup is amazing (I haven't tuned in for a while)! Edit: Also, in terms of the ethics middleground suggestion being "bolts", I think Australia is a good example of where we have achieved a middle ground. It's trad, and only bolting (carrot bolts) where there's no other option. This retains the aesthetic of the rock (carrots hide better) while still providing safety to climbers. Bolts that are placed without community consultation will often be chopped!
this was very interesting i like your faux rock constriction- i wonder if the movement between the two surfaces in the drop test rolled the knot smaller - im picturing pinching and rolling something between your fingers-
In this case it probably does, because this isn't the ideal situation described in Amonton's laws. In reality, the friction from the knot originates from a set of asperities, e.g. strands of textile hooked over small crystals of rock. Each of these has some finite shear strength, so by increasing the number of asperities you increase the force it takes to break them and the overall force it takes to slide the material over the rock and out the crack.
Hate for you to know how dodgy this is, but we use monkey fists and other large knot's as an anchoring in super thick muddy clay kind of nastiness for temporary placement. kind of the same way you would place a snow anchor, but many factors worse.. 😅 though it typically for low load, like climbing down banks to get into caves or some horrible bank with no where to place gear underground.
I have a canyoneering background and it is not uncommon to see a " Chock Knot" as an anchor. I think I've probably rappelled on a few. I trust Chock Knots but after seeing this I'm not sure I would want to fall while hooked to one.
Monkey fist knots are often made by wrapping them around something. The original purpose was as a weight with attached line for throwing. Shorter ones were used as weapons. I suggest making a monkey fist around a flexible but dense foam core, drilling a hole through from one corner to the opposite, and threading the rope through the hole so the load bears on the top of the monkey fist. That way pressure will expand the knot sideways. Maybe.
Surface area won't increase the friction. As long as the material is the same the friction will be the same for a large knot as a small. If the material is the same then its only alteration in weight or load that will change the friction. For example if you have 2 ropes of the same material but different diameter around a bollard, 10mm and 12mm with a 100kg on the other end of each rope. It won't take more wraps around the bollard to hold the weight with the 10mm because there is less rope in contact with the surface bollard. The friction will be the same as the 12mm it's just spread over a smaller area. There's some fancy algebra that explains it, it took me a while to get it.
Larger surface area gives you a lower friction force per unit area but still the same holding power only with significant simplifying assumptions. A larger surface area may allow you to drop below the shear strength of the rock and/or knot material - which has the net effect of increasing overall holding power.
@@user-jl8uw7uf3j defiantly, I know myself its easier to glaze a smaller line even though its rated for the weight. I use a 16mm at work when a 12 or 14 would technically take the load. You get a lot less sheath abrasion especially when natural crotch rigging or zip lining.
Not only Czech Republic, Poland(basically its next to Czech sandstone area, it cross between Poland and Czech) and German also forbids use metal in sandstone. The point is that sandstone crust in hard, but under that it is literally sand. So if you break outside crust layer it will chip off easy. Climbing in wet sandstone is also forbidden, in Poland at least. Wet sandstone is dangerous, slippery (friction go down to hell) and get damage easily. And above that the whole sandstone region in Poland is part of National Park, the climbing is possible in part of the park, and it is climbing on the park rules, or no climbing at all. There are some bolted routes on in Poland that are forbidden to climb, simply because Park authorities say so. There was time when sandstone where all together forbidden to climb in Poland. But people from climbing union and notably from one of climbers clubs present in sandstone for decades convinced Park Authorizes to allow climbing. And so, it is climbing on traditional Saxon rules set, or no climbing at all, Park Authorizes are eager to kick off climbers off the park Polish Sandstone and be done with it. So pleas be mindful of that. You may think its dangerous to climb there, and one cam, or nut will not be big thing, but that one cam and nut may kick all the climbers out of sandstone for good. Either grow balls and do it as it is, or go back to limestone.
As admitted also in the video there is very few whispers so the problem taking out the knots is basically non-existing. I really like the idea that falling has a price and it gives you also the possibility to play the psychological game - that's the tradition. Bolting - MEH, NAH, ... too easy excuse for the classical areas which are already established. In the Czechia, there are also other types of rock ranging from limestone to granite where you can practice sport climbing and whippers as you wish.
It looks like the biggest factor in determining if a knot will hold is the rope's friction with itself. They showed a pretty consistent tendency to pull through the interior of the knot or separate the structural sections of it.
I’ve been climbing for 34 years and climbed all over the world using trad methods. Sandstone is a nightmare to protect. Knotted rope is no guarantee at all, metal pro isn’t 100% on firm rock types. In the UK I fix lines and use hardware to self belay. Best of luck using your methods though.
Imho, this video didn’t do a proper job of dispelling gear fear. It seemed to mainly be about the breaking load of parachord and webbing, rather than looking at how the placement and use of the knots could be utilized most effectively. As noted in your previous videos, taking 10kN falls is unlikely in real world scenarios. Maybe instead each knot should be tested in three ways: -static, with a 200lb weight hanging from it, check how hard it is to remove and check for damage to the rock -dynamic, take a smaller fall that yields a 3kN load, check how hard it is to remove and check for damage to the rock Then the next step of the video should look at the range of each of the knots. That is, if a knot can hold a fall with a 10mm constriction, can it continue to hold the fall at a 12mm constriction? 14mm?
I think it breaks gear fear. If you place a knot in a crack, i'm sure you are pretty worried about it. This shows a bigger knot is super good enough but I'm also not trying to tell everyone everything is ok but to just help people understand their gear. What it can and can "knot" do.
Looking at the test crack you were dropping them from, I think your setup might have been causing so many of them to break at the webbing. It looks like only one of the plates was supported, and the force on the gear caused the other plate to move down and pinch the webbing at the bottom
the plates were also flexing apart slightly on some tests i think. Needs a thicker steel backing behind the stone, and probably an extra couple bolts...
Lol, you summarised my exacts feelings on czech climbing ethics. Bolt are just so tiny nowadays, they don't damage the rock and you can even paint them the color of the sandstone and no one will ever see them unless they are right in front of it. I think it's more of a tradition thing than real ethics. PS : I went there and climbed a bit (up to 6a), then got to an (easy) crux and decided never to do that again in my life.
Im from czechia.. and i hate climbing this sandstone. It so dumb, like you said now you dont make any major damage to stone. But fall make big damage on people. But if you make it propriet, more people will climb there and more damage to stone. So i understand why they dont want it.
I get that it is a deterrent. But couldn't they make a license type system ? With one very low fee for locals and a higher fee for foreigners. It would pay for the bolts. Also another argument I forgot is that the massive rusted metal rings in the middle of the climb look uglier than a discreet line of bolts.
@@HowNOT2 It is not about number of climbers or money for bolting. It is tradition here. Try to go on british gritstone with idea of sport bolting routes there. I think that they will not like it. And the same is valid for czech sandstone. In addition to that on most of sandstone in Czech Republic common bolts will not work correctly, because rock is too fragile and bolt too short. If you compare common bolt with sandstone ring, there is big difference. Bolts are use here in just few sandstone ares with harder type of sandstone.
Instead of doing a static call, what about trying the a passive knot whip where the rope has a chance to run through the draws and the belayer has a chance to absorb some force. 🧐
Way back before actual logarithmic cams existed, hexes were theoretically supposed to "cam" in cracks; yet friends in Colorado pull tested lots of gear, and passive rotational pieces pulled right through, unless they hit a nubbin or ripple that initiated the rotational action. Even Friends will pull through in hard steel plates in parallel walls, without a slight taper, or some texture to grab the lobes. Similarly, pull tests on slings show deformation and slippage inside the knot, so without a rock or some incompressible core, the rope or sling must be a very tight, hard weave or it is going to just compress and distort or pull through any opening large enough for a single strand to fit through. This provincial evolution defies logic, because it accepts massive drilled bolts that obviously can hold factor 2 falls, then abandons safety for an archaic and disproven methodology which could actually accommodate some modified solution, like nylon wedges that would actually survive falls, yet be more removable or replaceable while satisfying the principle of leaving no damage - something stuck but rotting and useless slings do not.
To be honest, when I first saw textile placements (here on an older episode), I found it an amazing and interesting idea. Now, with all that explanation and data, I am just wondering why the heck anyone would think that this is the best idea. I can get that erosion is a problem but there has to be a better way. Is there any data on this specific type of sandstone with climbing related erosion (e.g. from all those rings that people seem to regularly whip on)? It would come to mind to allow metal placement in one small area and bolt some routes in another and document everything really well for some years. If a small scale pilot study like that could (k)not detect any damage, the sample size could get larger and with better data, bolting and/or cams/friends should get legal. If it does get damaged, I would still argue for a strategy of small areas with bolted routes and lager areas that are completely protected (as in no climbing at all). I am an ecologist, I do not want any more damage to nature. But realistically speaking, especially in Europe we have damaged nature way beyond repair on basically any level and it seems a bit absurd to me, that it is completely fine to chop down forests, detonate rocks, flatten hills, change rivers and so on for the sake of construction, agriculture and (yes) sport (e.g. skiing), but gods beware the slightest bit of erosion on the inside of a crack on the face of a sandstone wall. Even within national parks, there are so many things that have a real ecological impact and still are allowed that it seems very hard to believe that this should be the optimal solution for both sides (nature and climbers).
Man, if you will come to the Czech republic. Meet locals and climb on our sandstone you will soon understand that bolting, or cams will ruin except the rocks but also the unique spirit and culture of this “adventure climbing” . ✨
Good that you bringing this up. You have to understand it's actually far more about tradition and preserving it for a small circle of climbers than about anything else.😉
Traditionally this is a trad climbing area, and one of the world's best I'd argue. Free climbing was born there. There's enough sport climbing crags all over Europe and it would be a shame to loose this unique climbing area in exchange for just one more sport climbing region. It takes time to learn the neccessary skills, and - as pointed out in the video by Jenny - sometimes you are waiting years until you feel you have the physical and mental strength to tackle one of the classics. Walking by that one crack or face after a long day of climbing and thinking 'one day I'll do it'. And when you finally feel ready it' rewards you with such a rich experience, I can tell you that. Comparable to climbing classics in the Dolomites for instance: you wouldn't dare to put more bolts in 'Modern times' at Marmolada to make it more save: because it's a classic test piece and also part of the climbing history. Same goes for grit stone or Yosemite: Of course, you could place a bolt ladder on some A4 route on El cap, that unarguably would make it more save, right? So my point is: many climbers enjoy climbing on the czech and german sandstone, and there are plenty of routes that are protected well with knots, slings and also ringbolts. Physically harder, more modern routes with more ringbolts (because there's no natural protection available) exist as well.
Sandstone just breaks easily and could be destroyed - even if it feels solid and not soft. That's another reason to climb only stuff you won't fall on. The protection is for extremely rare disaster cases, just like in ice climbing indeed.
It's important that people know this: surface area doesn't actually increase friction. What matters is the amount of force. I highly recommend everyone to watch an explanation on the physics of friction (yale has a good lecture) before trusting their lives with grip based anchors. With irregular surfaces larger surface area does give more chances for a "catch" on particularly grippy sections, but the extra size needed also allows for more deformation.
Let me ask a question when a Climber falls from a rock face does the whole rock face move? Or does the mountain itself shift? Seem's like silly questions yes? Well that testing rig they were using was shifting everytime they dropped they dummy/weights etc. That makes the test far from accurate or realistic for that matter the testing rig needs to be absolutely stable ie cemented in stone that's unmoveable. Or better yet on the actual rockface itself you would want to climb. Sorry to ramble and for lack of grammar but it's late. God bless
I'm not a climber, but a sailor and quite familiar with all kinds of rope. Looking at your 'tests' there seems to be a BIG LACK OF UNDERSTANDING, how ropes work - let's take a closer look at test#13: @9:33 you call it 'a stopper-knot with kinda 3 turns' and it's essentially one half of a "double fisherman's knot', used to connect two ropes, e.g. a net and a puller cable. It's obviously tied loosely - which is a major mistake #1 - ALWAYS pull knots tight as hard as you can. Especially dynamic ropes stretch under tension and get thinner, so they unavoidably slip some. Major mistake#2 is to leave not enough excess - you are using 10mm-rope and have only 2-3" of excess. The excess is called the SAFETY and if pulled tight a MINIMUM of 12 times the diameter is required, that would be 12cm (~5") and that would give you MINIMUM SAFETY - tied loosely, you'll need 18x-24x to get a solid knot under heavy tension. Pleeeease learn the basics first !!! IMHO the 'textile only' rule in the Czech republic is ridiculous and dangerous - best way to protect the sandstone surface is avoid abrasion by using a solid piece that doesn't slip and grind down the stone. I know a method to meet both requirements: tie a small monkey fist into a large monkey fist and then sew the large monkey fist with Kevlar thread together multiple times using a sailing needle. Stay safe
There is a lot here to “untie”. #1 if a rope is tied too tight, in climbing it is often taught to relax the knot for shock absorption. In this case a harder knot would be helpful, but careful using ALWAYS as there is always an exception. #2 barrel/scaffold/stopper knots tighten in a way that never suck up the tail. You can get away with crazy short tails on those but I don’t recommend it. The reason this one came undone the way it was is because the abnormal way we were pulling it. But if you tie an overhand/edk then you need 18” of tail. So different knots need different tails.
I still think that you should try it with 6mm dyneema button knot. Just use some old softshackle (button knot have to be really tight). IMO it should hold, i use that only to set a hammock between bricks 💚
Props to you you’re crazy I would not climb like that but then again I’m not a hard-core rock climber more of a once a year hobbyist so good on ya you got balls of steel lady
Did you alredy try wooden nut ive herd than swiss mountainer climb with that back in the day for larger crack/ when knots become too sketchy ( it should be heavier than knots but still less than old school piton would be ) but a harmer is needed cause they get stuck and expand when wet adding grip tho !?
I was under the impression that a monkey's fist was intended for weighting a line end to aid in throwing it. Never would have thought to try to support my whole weight to one wedged in between rocks like that.
Can you make a video about how high the forces can get when you pull really pull on a rope or on a hold with your bare hands. Lets say you place a cam and than you really pull on it to check if it holds. What magnitude of force is this. can you get to 1kN by really wacking on it or is this a completely other ball park. i mean when i make a pullup i can pull my self up which is about .4 kN on each of my hands. but if i really pull fast and with acceleration i would think i can easily create a peak force of 2kN for a milisecond.
In my area climbing is allowed anywhere. But no ropes, chalk, or attaching anything to the natural environment. So I don’t see the big deal in telling people no metal gear. You just adapt your climbing accordingly. Either don’t take needless risks, or take them aware of your limits. Just don’t lobby for a place to require under penalty use of permit and/or safety gear. Climb on! ‘Live Free or Die!’ -New Hampshire says it best.
What would be the best option for removing old knots? Would a solvent gum up the surface, weaken the sandstone, or wick back into new knots placed in the same spot? Maybe a sacrificial fiber core that can either easily burn out or dissolve with a plastic safe solvent? What about pre-stressed/pressed knots that are already hardened before placement? What about cone-shaped knots? I think there may be solutions to follow their rules while staying safe and ease removal of junked protection. By the way, I'd probably retest with some of the better monkey fists she had, or at least have someone tie good tight fists, maybe with the monkey first cores she mentioned. Either way, thanks for all the good content!
@WungusBill It would seem like a hammer and chisel or drill would also do damage, if it slipped. I was thinking a saw too, but that could also slip and cut the rock or one's own rope. Are you thinking they should just change the rules?
I'm pretty sure monkey fist was developed with natural rope which, I'm pretty sure, is way better at resisting compression strength than modern synthetic
You need to set the outer stone clamp more secure, as the knot pulls it down it pinches the rope below the knot and it cots the sheath. It also tightens the crack and make for scewed results
Would love to see this test done with 100% dynema cord, a technora/aramide cord, maybe something hyperstatic with a parallefiber core lìke a blueice runner and testing knots placed after pre tensioning/smushing them in the all metal cam crusher first to say 1-2kn, or with a press before placing them in the rock.
Is it not possible to make other, better protection for sandstone climbs? Maybe nuts with a plastic or silicone coating? Using knots sounds like a workaround.
I think it doesnt have to make sense. Its how the game is played, either play the game by the rules or dont play at all. Football doesnt make sense, why kick a ball around when u can use your hands. The rules are what make it interesting.
Great tests :). The issue with those whipping in sandstone is not the resistance of the knot though but the sandstone quality. At least from my understanding. Any thoughts from more experienced?
Awesome video! I’d also be curious to see if spraying truck bed liner on a knot would affect the friction in the crack. Maybe that wouldn’t go along with the ethics in Czech though.
I was always a 'safe' climber - danger was never a proving ground for me, so this video scares the hell out of me. I appreciate those who do climb scary routes, but like I said, it wasn't for me. Also, as someone who fell on a nut and got it stuck in the rock... that's an absolutely fine outcome, so far as I'm concerned. Also, the doge coin reference was pretty funny.
I'm sort of surprised I don't see either the tests or the comments. Have you tried nuts or hexes in your testing harness to make sure your simulated crack can hold the rating for real pro? Textile pro seems like a terrible idea, but I question how much of the failure is actually caused by knot deformation vs lateral forces on the bolts holding the plates deforming your test "crack"
You could probably get out hopelessly fixed protection with a wire saw. Would take a while but might be nice to do for the more unsightly or dangerous ones. Also does anyone use a shock absorber for soft rock or rope protection climbing? I've never seen anyone use one for anything but I feel that would make me a little more confident in soft rock protection, especially rope-only protection.
Full write-up with data at www.hownot2.com/post/monkey-fists.
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The missing thing in this write up is the width of the narrowest part of the crack simulator. And of course this must not change during test. Without this information, all the "came out" tests are useless.
Stop saying whip it. Thats hippie sht. Jus say take a big fall
I understand that might sounds strange to people from other parts of the world, but the Czech sandstone is pretty small area and it's part of national park. Even that there is some climbing allowed is really surprising. The sandstone is really brittle once the other layer of sediment is breached. You can see the damage is couple months and once it's starts, it is only getting worse. And there is really no good way to stop it in natural way. So it is either soft pro or no climbing.
Yea like 10% of sandstone climbing is inside a national park? Its many areas, one inside of a NP And some inside of CHKO, some not even protected area. I don't see how glue in bolt would mean big damage to the stone...
Has anybody actually seen a cam or nut legitimately damage rock when used properly? Cuz I've never seen it. One of these monkey fists is gonna get somebody killed without question.
@@amsbeats841 oh yea it would damage the rock for sure, the rock is like really soft sandstone. And also those monkey fists have killed, seriously injured people for sure already. However gluein bolts would not make substantial damage to the rock i believe. And it would be cool if at least some areas which are not in national parks or otherwise highly protected could be bolted. I dont think thats gonna happen in the next 15 years for sure, people are just too conservative and elitist to let that happen. They would rather chop the bolts off and let the rock deteriorate than let you have a sport route on czech sandstone..
@@partybather Right. I mean it's their country, if they want to set these rules then they have the right to. But I'm with you, just bolt the damn rock. It will save lives, people get to climb and the "damage" to the rock is so minimal. But it's their rock not mine lol.
@@amsbeats841 yea well Im from here, so its kinda my rock too. We still have different rock which is usually not super well but good enough bolted. However if I want to climb hard I rather go climbing to austria, slovenia, croatia… Kinda sad. My oppinion is that I wouldnt care if they keep the old areas as they are, but you cannot even go and develop your own crag with bolts, which kinda sucks, because the sandstone is really cool rock. You can at least boulder it as you please..
Hey, I'm climbing my whole life in the Saxon sandstone and I have never used a monkey fist. There are just a few situations where a monkey fist can be advantageous. For example in an offwitdh (and if the crack has a "cone"Form).
The majority of the local climbers uses figure 8's and if you climb a wider crack you use a sling with more diameter like a marine rope.
The figure 8's have to be placed very well. Usually they just slip and don't brake. Therefore we use a special stick ("Spatel") to place them that they don't move if you fall.
I already "tested" a 3mm dyneema/polyester figure 8 and it worked^^ (my feet were 0.5-1m above).
Another point is that there are routes with enough rings. Especially in higher grades there are often no possibilities to place slings and then you find more rings. And therefore it is also possible to "push your limits" and take the risk of a whipper. It's often just a bigger whipper. In Saxon there are routes up to 8c which are protected with a mix of rings and slings.
Love the gear testing you guys do, I bet this is the first time someone has actually measured the strength of those knots. Coming from a guy who likes data on his gear and not trust on blind faith, your channel is just awesome.
I know it may sound weird, but these rules actually make sense when you know about the sandstone in Czech republic (and in saxonian part of Germany for that matter)
The sandstone is quite special there the surface is quite hard, but only because the hard elements settle on the surface when water travels through. Beneath it’s basically a pile of sand. So if u damage the surface sufficiently with metal gear (stoppers cams or bolts) all those beautyful towers will eventually crumble to dust.
Bolting there is also very difficult for that reason.
So it‘s either use knots and webbing, destroy all the rocks or don‘t climb at all.
I know what I would choose😊 (although I‘d be shitting my pants😅)
yeahh, but bolting is still possible. just sayin
they already have rings, as seen in the video. properly installed glue in bolts using stainless would make much more sense and would be unlikely to damage the rock considerably, provided care was taken when drilling (which people have already done anyways)
Not every single crag needs to be bolted. There isn’t exactly a shortage of sport climbing in Europe.
My friend was climbing in Frankenjura, the hold blew off and so did all the monkeyfists, he took some 35 m fall. He survived, but he is never going to walk again, or do any sports.
*Subjectively defending these knots* Being from czechia but learning to climb on french sport routes and climbing back home later there is just something extra for me here that comes with this style. Climbing on sandstone here, simply put, comes with something more spiritual and sometimes bluntly said - it seems like free soloing with extra steps (if you decide to take on the less protected/able route). It is often more about the history, the culture, the tradition, the connection with nature more than just crushing grades. If I want to go crush grades I’ll go to a sport crag instead. This being mentally chalanging it is left to a much smaller group of individuals willing to take on the experience (the mental battle/risk). (Also it leaves you with an extra skill to learn that being placing good pro.) This way it ensures less erosion happens. A sad example of this is Pravcicka Brana (the largest sandstone arch in Europe), that was fully accessible in the past lost about 3 feet in thickness and had larger cracks appear from overuse and was later closed off in 1982. Also looking at it from a point of view of the park rangers these formations are primarily in national parks and we are lucky having even got the exception to use them for climbing at all, I’d personally much rather see them being climbed on in the coming decades than allow everyone in by bolting it all.
Perfectly said, im also from czech republic and could not agree more
Absolutely! I'm from neither Czechia nor Saxony - but I totally 'get' that there's more to rockclimbing than just doing hard moves; and at a time when, all over the world, rockclimbing appears to be becoming increasingly focused on safe physical difficulty it seems more than ever vital that we preserve those few areas and traditions wherein wider ability - ie mental as much as [or more than] physical - is what counts. If we lose them I doubt that we'll ever get them back.
You gonna die sooner than those rocks disappear.
Short explanation about the test that was done on real rock in 2010 since it might be difficult to get the translation from german. It was conducted in an old quarry which is now used as a climbing crag.
For ease of access, two crack constrictions a bit over 2 m above ground were chosen for the test. The upper constriction has a conical shape and a width from 11-13 mm, the lower is much less conical (more flat/open) and has a width of 12-13 mm. Slings of 3 different diameters (6,7 and 8 mm) were tested, always with the double stranded figure of eight as the stopping knot. The measuring device was connected to the sling (hanging directly under it). For the fall tests they used a 50 kg weight connected to the lower end of the measuring device with a double-stranded sling with a length of 1.5 m. The weight was pulled up using a second rope to a height of 1.5 m above the measuring device and released, resulting in quite hard falls with high impact forces.
Results: Knots can hold falls, if they are suitable for the respective placement (a constriction is neccessary, ideally with a conical shape). Constriction width needs to be smaller than at least two times the cords diameter. When dealing with “flatter” constrictions larger sling diameters are necessary in order to prevent the sling from moving, getting damaged as it slips and ultimately failing. The rock wasn’t damaged by the falls!
Maybe it’s of interest for some viewers.
50 kg would be a really small climber. I wouldn’t trust those results with real loads
@@johnbrewington2539 Have you looked at the actual forces that were measured when the sling held? They lie between 3 and 7 kN (4.48, 5.67, 2.86, 6, 7.23, 6.25, 6.89, 6.11 kN). This is well in range for the forces occuring at bolts during lead falls (there's a video on this very channel documenting the forces of lead fall in a gym + documentation for instance on the Petzl website). But more extensive tests would still be good ofc. Hope my comment doesn't get deleted this time (for whatever reason that was).
Falls du noch die Quelle hast, würde die mir interessieren.
yeees tradition :D
I believe that on sandstones in Germany Sachsen, the ethics is to clip rings when they are at your waist level maybe someone can confirm this
Jenny got that part right right about the knots, in theory they might save you but you dont want to test them
there is another side to this, our sandstone gets damaged with people climbing it, to a point that there are literally steps on some routes that get climbed a lot, so this shitty protection that makes climbing more psychologically demanding deters many climbers so the rock stays preserved ,if that makes sense
You can clip whenever you want. Otherwise it would be even more deadly with distances of at least 3 meters between the bolts (and often a lot more).
Thanks for the video, as a person now loving on the German/Czech border, this has become my new climbing reality! Good to see at least some of the knots would hold the peak force of a typical whipper, even if on the test they all just fly out like crazy 😂
One kind of cord we use here is a kevlar cord. In theory they are as strong as a 10mm rope but at just some 4mm. I really like to place them for the same reason Jenny points out: they are as solid as you can get some textile to be (until pulled in the slack snap, of course...). It would be interesting if you could test some of these to see if they really perform better than the paracord or the 4mm static cords! If you can't find them in the US I might be willing to shipping some your way :)
Also good to know that I'm not the only one who climbs here with the mentality of "just lead what you can really climb without falling". It is limiting to what I climb and I do climb a lot less often on rock here than I did before (back in Rio de Janeiro), but it is the reality, and even though the tradition is silly at times, the rocks would probably erode due to intense use if it was all bolted like sport routes... A hard situation to solve.
I am thinking it should be possible to make bolts that is specifically for sandstone? Something wider/longer. Spreading the load over a bigger area. This way it should still be much better than this xD
Or create cams that have some softer edges for sandstone.
@@SonnyKnutson dude, there are bolts placed in that area, just not in the same density as in a sport crag. And yes, these bolts are specifically designed for the sandstone with a shaft length of over 20 cm and a diameter of > 2 cm.
They are designed to last for up to 80 years.
This is not a sport climbing region.
A well set kevlar knot would probably do well. I think soft shackle button knots might also do well since they get rock hard. We will be testing UFOs soon.
@@SonnyKnutson Like Franz already replied, there are specific bolts for this regions (called "rings", because it is a think ring in a long shaft bolted into the sandstone) but there is kind of a rule that they can't be placed closer than 5m from each other. And the "soft cam" is a device called "UFO", Ryan said he is going to test it and I'm super excited to see how that one goes!
@@HowNOT2 Cool, thanks! And true, Probably getting some rock hard knots is the best strategy... maybe that is why many people like using old, retied ropes to make these knots. They are rough and have a lot more friction onto itself than new ropes! (Also it's cheaper. Also it holds less force than a new rope, but super good enough in this scenario, I guess).
Awesome, looking forward to the UFO tests! :D
Would have really love to see just a few "realistic" style falls on it. Factor 0.5, a human belayer who can get lifted and maybe a spring connecting the mass to the rope to simulate human body shock absorption.
It is essential to test the worst case, but the typical is good to know too
We have already a solid base line for what force is generated by a whipper. We needed to break or rip out these pieces to learn about the pieces. To test forces of whippers is an entirely different objective. 6kn is a hard whipper. Our record is 8kn with a 290lb climber with a fixed belay.
@@HowNOT2 I agree, the outcome in my mind wouldn't be the force generated, rather it'd be the state the gear is in after the fall. When you do a drop test and get 6kN, we don't know if that means that it would hold a normal lead fall (2-4kN) no problem and could do so fifty more times, or if it'd be mangled and sketchy afterwards.
@@perplexedon9834 More likely it would be stuck as opposed to completely mangled. Most textile pro is made out of slings, cord, or old rope bits. If they don’t rip out and do hold the fall they’re often impossible to remove rather than shredded.
@@HowNOT2 usually the gear we use is super bomber and hard to break. These knots are the exception! :)
But the main thing here to me is...super nicely done. Testing pro in rock seems to be like one of the hardest things to test, and we just saw pro tested in rock on the drop tower -- does not get much better than that!!
@@jennypie116 partly true, but so far I got all of my ropes out even after whippers.
I'm an overweight dreamer of what you do so I have no opinion on what this video is about but you have motivated me to start doing pull ups and cardio so I can start climbing in some small way. What a cool sport.
If you have a climbing gym near you just go and climb. I have almost no upper body strength at all but got to V4's pretty quickly before I fucked up my foot (unrelated reasons).
This was really common practice back in the dawn of lead climbing. When I was 16 my friends and I climbed at the Gunks in NY. It was like 1990. We had no money and had an old climbing book. It showed knots, slings, and literally nuts on ropes. So that is what we used to supplement our single set of wire nuts. Eventually I bought a few cams and more real gear. But being able to improvise was always an option. Even later when I moved to Utah and was sport climbing, I made my own Quickdraws and slings. Using webbing, water knots and electric tape.
I climbed the gunks with my cousin as a teenager somewhere around then. We just scrambled up the cliff and got to the top and someone asked where our ropes were....I had trouble sleeping when I thought about it that night.
Really cool that you test some knots like in Czech/Saxony climbing. Would be very interesting if you guys test some of the famous Czech UFOring which is the evolution of the monkey knot
Or obrworks which is the competition, but i guess those ones are even more hard to get in USA
I had never heard of that. Looks pretty ingenious! Cool beans!
Jenny is getting me some UFOs while she is visiting Czech.
@@angelperezlopez7424 UFOrings and ObrWorks are both types of UFOs. Lets understand, that word "UFO" is intend as this type of climbing protection, not one particular product. Similarly like word "nut" or "cam".
The applealation is from time, when this type of protection had been very rare, it was new invention and there had not been any manufacturer to produce them comercialy. Just few people know how to make them and they DIY for their own usage. And in these days rumous started to spread inside sandstone climbers community, that there is some new sort of climbing protection, that can be used on sandstone in harmony with rules of sandstone climbing and sandstone climbing tradition. And it works even in cracks that do not have any narrowings. So people heard about them, but nearly nobody has seen them - do you see some similarity with common usage of word/abbreviation UFO here? ;)
And I am from Czech Republic, so if you have serious interest about getting some I think I can buy some and send them to you. But do not have any idea about shipping and customs fees.
@@HowNOT2 I really look forward to this video. Living near Saxon Switzerland, so basically on the German side of the same sandstone formation, I contemplated buying UFOs since their creation to complement our collection of knots and slings.
Also, to comment on this video, we often use slings on knolls or bottlenecks too, which one trusts a lot more than knots :)
You can remove stuck knots by cutting them up with a saw blade. Some routes also have intentionally placed knots to use for everyone.
When I tried to think of a stopper knot that would expand as it was pulled with friction on the outside, the only one I could imagine was the Oysterman's, or Ashley Stopper. I'm a bit disappointed that you guys didn't think of it. Arguably it's a subset of a monkey fist, but equally arguably a monkey fist is an Oysterman's with extra layers wrapped around the outside to squish and slide. The monkey fist is, after all, not actually a stopper knot but a makeshift weight or wrapping for one.
yeah I never heard of using a monkey fist for anything except as a weight but then again I don't climb 🤷 idk why YT even recommended this vid to me but here I am watching it anyways because it was interesting 🤣
I know that usually these reading are meant to be indicative, but here, where soft catches play a big role in belay technique, I would be curious to see dynamic catches on these pieces of gear. Realistically, people do not just fall hard and short on gear like this. The lowest breaking forces measured were pretty miserable...but there were a few that suggested the webbing or cord broke before the knot slipped. In those cases I would like to see what happens in a dynamic situation. Obviously knot pro is fucking crazy but I feel like it might be less crazy than this video suggests. It cannot be the case that everyone who climbs in Czech is basically free soloing...and that there are not tons more injuries and deaths.
The point of the extra harsh drop tests is to stress the gear until failure so they can get a max force reading. Replicating a more realistic leader fall wouldn't tell you how strong the placement was. From there we can infer which placements might actually hold a leader fall in a real scenario where the load is unlikely to exceed 5 or 6kn on the top piece.
Hey Arnold. I can’t break the gear if we test it with a “realistic” belay. It generally doesn’t generate enough force. If we get it above 6kn then it’s probably going to hold in the more realistic scenario. I think there are less deaths in Czech because it’s Darwinism at its finest. I don’t ever plan on climbing there and people who do are climbing several grades below what they would if they were on a sport route.
I am from saxony and i use knot slings a lot at other climbs too. so i can say it works fantastic at limestone cracks usually better than wires for me because the knot can better adapt to the form of the rocksurface. :) and for removing if one of our knots get stuck we have a wooden stick ca. 40 cm long similar to a nut tool to get the knot out.
By the time you got to the monkey first, your bolts were bent. That means that, at the moment of impact, the gap isn't as small as you think. The plates will separate a little. A bit of a problem with that test. Great fun to watch, even more fun to watch an improved test!
Excellent video 📸
Been wanting to know these numbers for quite a while. Glad someone could go to the extreme test, of amputating an arm, for science.
Whipped several times into slings and knots and belayed lead climbers that fell into them. With falling distances of around 8 meters (25 ft): Since I am still writing this, they obviously hold up if placed correctly. Most of the times they also come out, but its not fun, also the outer shell often cracks open and reveals the core which complicates removing them further. As some other comment stated, we sometimes use sticks or wooden spoons to get the gear in and out.
The monkey fist is - at least on my part - mostly used on wide placements, i.e. you would tie it from material larger than 10 mm diameter. There is a subsitute made of webbing, produced in Czech Republic called UFO sling - I would be very much interested if you tested these. Perhaps Jenny can hook you up?
And concerning her statement on eroding the rock or it being soft: It is true, most the surface isn't that soft but very coarse. However, this usually applies only to the grey and black areas as shown in her pictures, which is an outer layer that has oxidized through natural processes (UV, weather and stuff) and is hence hardened. If you break through this shell of around 5 millimeters, the rock becomes yellow/orange or almost white. And this then is the stone that can easily be eroded: Your fingers gripping it, ropes and even wind. Since top ropes often have some point of contact to the cliffs, the ropes cuts into the stone there revealing that softer material. That and people not up to the difficulty of the route (often breaking features) are some reasons why top ropes are prohibited.
Keep up your work, always interesting and funny to see ("That's how Dogecoin looks" had me nearly lying under the table).
Not all rocks should be climbed, and this is coming from someone looking at a cliff and feel sad when climbing is not allowed. So if only textile pro is allowed for an area, then so be it. It's either that or the park won't allow climbing at all, so take your pick. Maybe the ethics can be modified to better protect the rock and not leave junk behind and all that, but it's not for us to say.
I get the whole climber safety concerns, but maybe climb somewhere else that allows standard pro instead? We climbers do need to remember that climbing is a privilege and not a right.
Sandstone here (im from czech republic) is fragile so if u want to place ring you need to dril a large deep for the long ring to hold proplerly. The reason why there aren't rings on every meter it becouse the czech sandstone never was(and hope never will be) a beginer place to go climb. If you head a ring on every 2 meters the routes will be much more crowded and therefore causing much more erosion on the sandstone - the route will be ruined in 5 years. Right now it is (and always was) an experienced climer destination and it is for the ones that have the balls to climb it
Ps. Sorry for my mistakes
More traffic would be bad. I agree. I like the idea of a permit system limiting traffic, not forcing people to risk death in order to limit the traffic.
@@HowNOT2 Thanks for the answer. That could work to solve the crowdines but you will still need to make a big deep hole to the sandstone to place a ring and to bolt a whole route like this would be kinda disrespectful to the nature if you know what i mean. Also almost all of the sandstone here is in national parks so you want to leave the sandstone as "pure" as posible. There is an old tradition for the bolting here on the czech sand stone. If you want to bolt a route you have to do it from the ground up with no fixed rope from the top. Just climb to the spot that needs a ring hang on drill your hole while either holding or siting in your personal "protection". Adam Ondra did a video on this
ruclips.net/video/h-3m1jdR8rs/видео.html
I found it very intresting and i think that it would be disrespectful to place some more rings to an allready bolted route. The placement of the rings is kinda like seting a route in gym. You can't add another hold just becouse it is hard.
Thanks again for reply, im a fan of the chanel and love what you guys do.
Again sorry for my mistakes
If one reads about the history of mountaineering and climbing, one would be amazed at what was used by clever early climbers. Nowadays, we climbers are so lucky to have the tech and gadgets we have.
Teton Mountaineering Shop, in Jackson,WY has interesting display on walls of old equipment ‘rescued’ from mountains. The Teton National Park Ranger Station had on display, for awhile, cams and other pieces, which were salvaged after a direct lightning strike, years ago. Goosebumps looking at multiple titanium cam & nut cables melted~ruptured by lightning hit. Stay out of mountain weather!
I'm one of the probably many people that suggested this! So happy to see it. Thanks heaps, the new setup is amazing (I haven't tuned in for a while)!
Edit: Also, in terms of the ethics middleground suggestion being "bolts", I think Australia is a good example of where we have achieved a middle ground. It's trad, and only bolting (carrot bolts) where there's no other option. This retains the aesthetic of the rock (carrots hide better) while still providing safety to climbers. Bolts that are placed without community consultation will often be chopped!
Look up Petr Slanina aka Špek. He is probably the boldest Czech routesetter. His FAs are truly insane
What about a melted ball of nylon? For inside the monkey fist? Since it’s the same material as the fist itself.
this was very interesting i like your faux rock constriction- i wonder if the movement between the two surfaces in the drop test rolled the knot smaller - im picturing pinching and rolling something between your fingers-
It's a big pet peeve of mine but friction absolutely does not depend of surface area
In this case it probably does, because this isn't the ideal situation described in Amonton's laws. In reality, the friction from the knot originates from a set of asperities, e.g. strands of textile hooked over small crystals of rock. Each of these has some finite shear strength, so by increasing the number of asperities you increase the force it takes to break them and the overall force it takes to slide the material over the rock and out the crack.
Hate for you to know how dodgy this is, but we use monkey fists and other large knot's as an anchoring in super thick muddy clay kind of nastiness for temporary placement. kind of the same way you would place a snow anchor, but many factors worse.. 😅 though it typically for low load, like climbing down banks to get into caves or some horrible bank with no where to place gear underground.
I have a canyoneering background and it is not uncommon to see a " Chock Knot" as an anchor. I think I've probably rappelled on a few. I trust Chock Knots but after seeing this I'm not sure I would want to fall while hooked to one.
Monkey fist knots are often made by wrapping them around something. The original purpose was as a weight with attached line for throwing. Shorter ones were used as weapons.
I suggest making a monkey fist around a flexible but dense foam core, drilling a hole through from one corner to the opposite, and threading the rope through the hole so the load bears on the top of the monkey fist. That way pressure will expand the knot sideways.
Maybe.
Interesting
Apparently not allowed there.
Surface area won't increase the friction. As long as the material is the same the friction will be the same for a large knot as a small. If the material is the same then its only alteration in weight or load that will change the friction.
For example if you have 2 ropes of the same material but different diameter around a bollard, 10mm and 12mm with a 100kg on the other end of each rope. It won't take more wraps around the bollard to hold the weight with the 10mm because there is less rope in contact with the surface bollard. The friction will be the same as the 12mm it's just spread over a smaller area.
There's some fancy algebra that explains it, it took me a while to get it.
That's true with homogeneous surfaces, but not with rough sandstone.
Larger surface area gives you a lower friction force per unit area but still the same holding power only with significant simplifying assumptions. A larger surface area may allow you to drop below the shear strength of the rock and/or knot material - which has the net effect of increasing overall holding power.
@@jans.5559 For sure the cohesive friction will vary all over the rock. Its not something I'd want to rely on.
@@user-jl8uw7uf3j defiantly, I know myself its easier to glaze a smaller line even though its rated for the weight. I use a 16mm at work when a 12 or 14 would technically take the load. You get a lot less sheath abrasion especially when natural crotch rigging or zip lining.
Not only Czech Republic, Poland(basically its next to Czech sandstone area, it cross between Poland and Czech) and German also forbids use metal in sandstone. The point is that sandstone crust in hard, but under that it is literally sand. So if you break outside crust layer it will chip off easy. Climbing in wet sandstone is also forbidden, in Poland at least. Wet sandstone is dangerous, slippery (friction go down to hell) and get damage easily. And above that the whole sandstone region in Poland is part of National Park, the climbing is possible in part of the park, and it is climbing on the park rules, or no climbing at all. There are some bolted routes on in Poland that are forbidden to climb, simply because Park authorities say so. There was time when sandstone where all together forbidden to climb in Poland. But people from climbing union and notably from one of climbers clubs present in sandstone for decades convinced Park Authorizes to allow climbing. And so, it is climbing on traditional Saxon rules set, or no climbing at all, Park Authorizes are eager to kick off climbers off the park Polish Sandstone and be done with it. So pleas be mindful of that. You may think its dangerous to climb there, and one cam, or nut will not be big thing, but that one cam and nut may kick all the climbers out of sandstone for good. Either grow balls and do it as it is, or go back to limestone.
As admitted also in the video there is very few whispers so the problem taking out the knots is basically non-existing.
I really like the idea that falling has a price and it gives you also the possibility to play the psychological game - that's the tradition.
Bolting - MEH, NAH, ... too easy excuse for the classical areas which are already established.
In the Czechia, there are also other types of rock ranging from limestone to granite where you can practice sport climbing and whippers as you wish.
Dont even care about monkey knots or watched the entire video but the quick hardesting you guys did in the first 15sec earned a like
I was under the impression the monkey fist was a pirate knot intended to contain a lead ball and used as a weapon?
I have no interest in ever climbing but I realy enjoyed learning something today. you guys are brave.
It looks like the biggest factor in determining if a knot will hold is the rope's friction with itself. They showed a pretty consistent tendency to pull through the interior of the knot or separate the structural sections of it.
I’ve been climbing for 34 years and climbed all over the world using trad methods. Sandstone is a nightmare to protect. Knotted rope is no guarantee at all, metal pro isn’t 100% on firm rock types. In the UK I fix lines and use hardware to self belay. Best of luck using your methods though.
Imho, this video didn’t do a proper job of dispelling gear fear.
It seemed to mainly be about the breaking load of parachord and webbing, rather than looking at how the placement and use of the knots could be utilized most effectively.
As noted in your previous videos, taking 10kN falls is unlikely in real world scenarios. Maybe instead each knot should be tested in three ways:
-static, with a 200lb weight hanging from it, check how hard it is to remove and check for damage to the rock
-dynamic, take a smaller fall that yields a 3kN load, check how hard it is to remove and check for damage to the rock
Then the next step of the video should look at the range of each of the knots. That is, if a knot can hold a fall with a 10mm constriction, can it continue to hold the fall at a 12mm constriction? 14mm?
Up! 8kn is quite good. I mean, it's a fucking rope not a nut🤷🏾♂️
I think it breaks gear fear. If you place a knot in a crack, i'm sure you are pretty worried about it. This shows a bigger knot is super good enough but I'm also not trying to tell everyone everything is ok but to just help people understand their gear. What it can and can "knot" do.
Looking at the test crack you were dropping them from, I think your setup might have been causing so many of them to break at the webbing. It looks like only one of the plates was supported, and the force on the gear caused the other plate to move down and pinch the webbing at the bottom
the plates were also flexing apart slightly on some tests i think. Needs a thicker steel backing behind the stone, and probably an extra couple bolts...
Wow! So pleased to finally see these tests. Curiosity thoroughly satisfied.
Canyoneers once used a lot of knots, but as anchors for low stress handlines and raps. I used to see them in red rock canyons.
Lol, you summarised my exacts feelings on czech climbing ethics.
Bolt are just so tiny nowadays, they don't damage the rock and you can even paint them the color of the sandstone and no one will ever see them unless they are right in front of it.
I think it's more of a tradition thing than real ethics.
PS : I went there and climbed a bit (up to 6a), then got to an (easy) crux and decided never to do that again in my life.
Im from czechia.. and i hate climbing this sandstone. It so dumb, like you said now you dont make any major damage to stone. But fall make big damage on people.
But if you make it propriet, more people will climb there and more damage to stone. So i understand why they dont want it.
I get that it is a deterrent. But couldn't they make a license type system ?
With one very low fee for locals and a higher fee for foreigners. It would pay for the bolts. Also another argument I forgot is that the massive rusted metal rings in the middle of the climb look uglier than a discreet line of bolts.
I like the permit idea if they want less people
@@HowNOT2 It is not about number of climbers or money for bolting. It is tradition here. Try to go on british gritstone with idea of sport bolting routes there. I think that they will not like it. And the same is valid for czech sandstone. In addition to that on most of sandstone in Czech Republic common bolts will not work correctly, because rock is too fragile and bolt too short. If you compare common bolt with sandstone ring, there is big difference. Bolts are use here in just few sandstone ares with harder type of sandstone.
@@petrstastny5130 Why even use protection if you care about "traditional" climbing?
Instead of doing a static call, what about trying the a passive knot whip where the rope has a chance to run through the draws and the belayer has a chance to absorb some force. 🧐
That doesn't break the gear. We wanted to find the limits of it. Anything above 8kn in trad gear is super good enough
Do they put rings at the top of routes? If not what knot/knots are you typically rappelling off of?
Way back before actual logarithmic cams existed, hexes were theoretically supposed to "cam" in cracks; yet friends in Colorado pull tested lots of gear, and passive rotational pieces pulled right through, unless they hit a nubbin or ripple that initiated the rotational action. Even Friends will pull through in hard steel plates in parallel walls, without a slight taper, or some texture to grab the lobes. Similarly, pull tests on slings show deformation and slippage inside the knot, so without a rock or some incompressible core, the rope or sling must be a very tight, hard weave or it is going to just compress and distort or pull through any opening large enough for a single strand to fit through. This provincial evolution defies logic, because it accepts massive drilled bolts that obviously can hold factor 2 falls, then abandons safety for an archaic and disproven methodology which could actually accommodate some modified solution, like nylon wedges that would actually survive falls, yet be more removable or replaceable while satisfying the principle of leaving no damage - something stuck but rotting and useless slings do not.
To be honest, when I first saw textile placements (here on an older episode), I found it an amazing and interesting idea. Now, with all that explanation and data, I am just wondering why the heck anyone would think that this is the best idea. I can get that erosion is a problem but there has to be a better way. Is there any data on this specific type of sandstone with climbing related erosion (e.g. from all those rings that people seem to regularly whip on)? It would come to mind to allow metal placement in one small area and bolt some routes in another and document everything really well for some years. If a small scale pilot study like that could (k)not detect any damage, the sample size could get larger and with better data, bolting and/or cams/friends should get legal. If it does get damaged, I would still argue for a strategy of small areas with bolted routes and lager areas that are completely protected (as in no climbing at all). I am an ecologist, I do not want any more damage to nature. But realistically speaking, especially in Europe we have damaged nature way beyond repair on basically any level and it seems a bit absurd to me, that it is completely fine to chop down forests, detonate rocks, flatten hills, change rivers and so on for the sake of construction, agriculture and (yes) sport (e.g. skiing), but gods beware the slightest bit of erosion on the inside of a crack on the face of a sandstone wall. Even within national parks, there are so many things that have a real ecological impact and still are allowed that it seems very hard to believe that this should be the optimal solution for both sides (nature and climbers).
Man, if you will come to the Czech republic. Meet locals and climb on our sandstone you will soon understand that bolting, or cams will ruin except the rocks but also the unique spirit and culture of this “adventure climbing” . ✨
climbing with slings and knots on sandstone is so much fun :) that is the biggest reason we do it ;)
Good that you bringing this up. You have to understand it's actually far more about tradition and preserving it for a small circle of climbers than about anything else.😉
Traditionally this is a trad climbing area, and one of the world's best I'd argue. Free climbing was born there. There's enough sport climbing crags all over Europe and it would be a shame to loose this unique climbing area in exchange for just one more sport climbing region. It takes time to learn the neccessary skills, and - as pointed out in the video by Jenny - sometimes you are waiting years until you feel you have the physical and mental strength to tackle one of the classics. Walking by that one crack or face after a long day of climbing and thinking 'one day I'll do it'. And when you finally feel ready it' rewards you with such a rich experience, I can tell you that. Comparable to climbing classics in the Dolomites for instance: you wouldn't dare to put more bolts in 'Modern times' at Marmolada to make it more save: because it's a classic test piece and also part of the climbing history. Same goes for grit stone or Yosemite: Of course, you could place a bolt ladder on some A4 route on El cap, that unarguably would make it more save, right? So my point is: many climbers enjoy climbing on the czech and german sandstone, and there are plenty of routes that are protected well with knots, slings and also ringbolts. Physically harder, more modern routes with more ringbolts (because there's no natural protection available) exist as well.
In the UK we have 'Southern Sandstone' which has the same issue in terms of fragility. But people just toprope it.
Sandstone just breaks easily and could be destroyed - even if it feels solid and not soft. That's another reason to climb only stuff you won't fall on. The protection is for extremely rare disaster cases, just like in ice climbing indeed.
I don't know if I'm the only one but it was a little bit more dificult to me to understand whats going on on the video in this particular video
It's important that people know this: surface area doesn't actually increase friction. What matters is the amount of force. I highly recommend everyone to watch an explanation on the physics of friction (yale has a good lecture) before trusting their lives with grip based anchors. With irregular surfaces larger surface area does give more chances for a "catch" on particularly grippy sections, but the extra size needed also allows for more deformation.
A lot of these failures have to do with the fact that your rock faces are moving so much. A completely firm surface would act completely differently
Let me ask a question when a Climber falls from a rock face does the whole rock face move? Or does the mountain itself shift? Seem's like silly questions yes? Well that testing rig they were using was shifting everytime they dropped they dummy/weights etc. That makes the test far from accurate or realistic for that matter the testing rig needs to be absolutely stable ie cemented in stone that's unmoveable. Or better yet on the actual rockface itself you would want to climb. Sorry to ramble and for lack of grammar but it's late. God bless
Science always wins. Thanks for this video!
I mean if you don't want to fall on your equipment, what's the reason for bringing any?
Why use an airbag if you don't want to smack your face into it?
@@ddegn Because an airbag can and will save my life while this gear probably won't.
This title was exactly my intuitive feeling about monkey fists.
I'm not a climber, but a sailor and quite familiar with all kinds of rope.
Looking at your 'tests' there seems to be a BIG LACK OF UNDERSTANDING, how ropes work - let's take a closer look at test#13: @9:33 you call it 'a stopper-knot with kinda 3 turns' and it's essentially one half of a "double fisherman's knot', used to connect two ropes, e.g. a net and a puller cable.
It's obviously tied loosely - which is a major mistake #1 - ALWAYS pull knots tight as hard as you can. Especially dynamic ropes stretch under tension and get thinner, so they unavoidably slip some.
Major mistake#2 is to leave not enough excess - you are using 10mm-rope and have only 2-3" of excess. The excess is called the SAFETY and if pulled tight a MINIMUM of 12 times the diameter is required, that would be 12cm (~5") and that would give you MINIMUM SAFETY - tied loosely, you'll need 18x-24x to get a solid knot under heavy tension.
Pleeeease learn the basics first !!!
IMHO the 'textile only' rule in the Czech republic is ridiculous and dangerous - best way to protect the sandstone surface is avoid abrasion by using a solid piece that doesn't slip and grind down the stone.
I know a method to meet both requirements: tie a small monkey fist into a large monkey fist and then sew the large monkey fist with Kevlar thread together multiple times using a sailing needle.
Stay safe
There is a lot here to “untie”. #1 if a rope is tied too tight, in climbing it is often taught to relax the knot for shock absorption. In this case a harder knot would be helpful, but careful using ALWAYS as there is always an exception. #2 barrel/scaffold/stopper knots tighten in a way that never suck up the tail. You can get away with crazy short tails on those but I don’t recommend it. The reason this one came undone the way it was is because the abnormal way we were pulling it. But if you tie an overhand/edk then you need 18” of tail. So different knots need different tails.
I still think that you should try it with 6mm dyneema button knot. Just use some old softshackle (button knot have to be really tight). IMO it should hold, i use that only to set a hammock between bricks 💚
Your whole metal bolt assembly thing is flexing and opening a lot more than a real crack would. Look at the individual frames at 17:21
To stop the abrasion, add grease to your monkey fists. You can carry a can of grease in a chalk bag.
Props to you you’re crazy I would not climb like that but then again I’m not a hard-core rock climber more of a once a year hobbyist so good on ya you got balls of steel lady
I actually have always 2 monkey fists on my bag,
It is super to build quick anchor for redirects and such.
I even used them to pull 200m tagline
Casually roasting dogecoin
I'm not bitter. No. :)
Monkeys fists work fine. This just isn't what they are for. A monkeys fist is for putting some mass at end of a rope to aid in throwing it.
I wrap monkey fists around small round objects like golf balls or even 30mm marbles depending on what I'm using for cordage.
Did you alredy try wooden nut ive herd than swiss mountainer climb with that back in the day for larger crack/ when knots become too sketchy ( it should be heavier than knots but still less than old school piton would be ) but a harmer is needed cause they get stuck and expand when wet adding grip tho !?
I was under the impression that a monkey's fist was intended for weighting a line end to aid in throwing it. Never would have thought to try to support my whole weight to one wedged in between rocks like that.
Thanks for this, i know a lot went into it 🙂
Can you make a video about how high the forces can get when you pull really pull on a rope or on a hold with your bare hands. Lets say you place a cam and than you really pull on it to check if it holds. What magnitude of force is this. can you get to 1kN by really wacking on it or is this a completely other ball park. i mean when i make a pullup i can pull my self up which is about .4 kN on each of my hands. but if i really pull fast and with acceleration i would think i can easily create a peak force of 2kN for a milisecond.
I've been spending hours watching your tests. TY
that's for rock climbing? i always thought it was a weapon
In my area climbing is allowed anywhere. But no ropes, chalk, or attaching anything to the natural environment. So I don’t see the big deal in telling people no metal gear. You just adapt your climbing accordingly. Either don’t take needless risks, or take them aware of your limits. Just don’t lobby for a place to require under penalty use of permit and/or safety gear. Climb on! ‘Live Free or Die!’ -New Hampshire says it best.
What would be the best option for removing old knots? Would a solvent gum up the surface, weaken the sandstone, or wick back into new knots placed in the same spot? Maybe a sacrificial fiber core that can either easily burn out or dissolve with a plastic safe solvent? What about pre-stressed/pressed knots that are already hardened before placement? What about cone-shaped knots? I think there may be solutions to follow their rules while staying safe and ease removal of junked protection.
By the way, I'd probably retest with some of the better monkey fists she had, or at least have someone tie good tight fists, maybe with the monkey first cores she mentioned.
Either way, thanks for all the good content!
@WungusBill It would seem like a hammer and chisel or drill would also do damage, if it slipped. I was thinking a saw too, but that could also slip and cut the rock or one's own rope.
Are you thinking they should just change the rules?
Just a little jet lighter will probably do it, melt out the knot and it won't be hot enough to damage the surrounding rock
@WungusBill On that special sandstone in the Czech Republic and Germany.
I usually have a very small folding saw in the backpack, and the follower simply saws it out, if its not otherwise possible.
I'm pretty sure monkey fist was developed with natural rope which, I'm pretty sure, is way better at resisting compression strength than modern synthetic
You need to set the outer stone clamp more secure, as the knot pulls it down it pinches the rope below the knot and it cots the sheath.
It also tightens the crack and make for scewed results
After this we up sized the bolts to 1/2" and am trying to redesign it
10:30 might wan to consider useoing the rope to wrap an object like a wedge of woof or a small sand bag
Would love to see this test done with 100% dynema cord, a technora/aramide cord, maybe something hyperstatic with a parallefiber core lìke a blueice runner and testing knots placed after pre tensioning/smushing them in the all metal cam crusher first to say 1-2kn, or with a press before placing them in the rock.
Is it not possible to make other, better protection for sandstone climbs? Maybe nuts with a plastic or silicone coating? Using knots sounds like a workaround.
On these kinds of tests it may be interesting to look at work done (in Joules) on top of the peak force
Already into Dive Talk... am I about to get in to watching rock climbers too? xD
Super interesting video!
I think it doesnt have to make sense. Its how the game is played, either play the game by the rules or dont play at all. Football doesnt make sense, why kick a ball around when u can use your hands. The rules are what make it interesting.
I’ll never climb in these sandstone regions, but I love the fact that those areas exist and there are bold climbers who play by the rules!
Personally, for me those rules are BS and to show my disagreement with those rules and “ethics” I will just boycott those crags.
@@NM-ib7ql u cant boycott it if nobody wants u there anyway
@@NM-ib7ql I’m sure you will not hurt anyone’s feelings by staying away!
Are you a 100% sure your rock plates don’t separate a tiny bit at impact? It would take ultra slow mo for me to be convinced.
some metal protection has rating of 4kN or less. So, the knots work just as good.
Great tests :). The issue with those whipping in sandstone is not the resistance of the knot though but the sandstone quality. At least from my understanding. Any thoughts from more experienced?
You should also try the diamond knot
Awesome video! I’d also be curious to see if spraying truck bed liner on a knot would affect the friction in the crack. Maybe that wouldn’t go along with the ethics in Czech though.
UFOs have rubber so I don’t see why not
the probelem with the simulated wedge in the rock is that there is not millions of tons pushing on the knot. its maybe 10 pounds
I wonder if you could use wood or plastic for nuts
I was always a 'safe' climber - danger was never a proving ground for me, so this video scares the hell out of me. I appreciate those who do climb scary routes, but like I said, it wasn't for me. Also, as someone who fell on a nut and got it stuck in the rock... that's an absolutely fine outcome, so far as I'm concerned.
Also, the doge coin reference was pretty funny.
a monkeys fist as far as i know is or was used with a pebble tied into the knot to help throw the rope to a boat
i totally agree with a metal gear ban but just place a few more rings/bolts? makes no sense not to if people are climbing it regularly
You should go to the chec republic, tell us what it’s like climbing sandstone, 🧐 science
I'm sort of surprised I don't see either the tests or the comments. Have you tried nuts or hexes in your testing harness to make sure your simulated crack can hold the rating for real pro? Textile pro seems like a terrible idea, but I question how much of the failure is actually caused by knot deformation vs lateral forces on the bolts holding the plates deforming your test "crack"
Oohhhh nice! I'd been waiting foe this one! 😁😁
What about wood? Or some composite?
You could probably get out hopelessly fixed protection with a wire saw. Would take a while but might be nice to do for the more unsightly or dangerous ones.
Also does anyone use a shock absorber for soft rock or rope protection climbing?
I've never seen anyone use one for anything but I feel that would make me a little more confident in soft rock protection, especially rope-only protection.
just need an electric wire saw lol
9:43 Engineers sitting watching this- "mmmm yea thats the good stuff... do it again"